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Who’s a “real woman” anyway?

How many times have you heard some idiot say something like, “man, I hate American chicks, might as well go to Thailand/El Salvador/Moldova, that’s where the REAL WOMEN are at.”

Now, we all know what he probably means here – women who are at a similar economic level are not submissive enough, and women who are not are “easier” to deal with. There’s also the fact that a certain woman’s upbringing may make her more “susceptible” to what the man perceives to be submissive status, or else give the appearance of such status.

That’s all pretty much clear, or so I think. What isn’t often clear is the motivation of the “submissive foreign woman” in question. Based on my experience, scenarios vary wildly. A lot of women consider the arrangement a step up, and will tell you to fuck off if you try to lecture them on who to marry and how to carry themselves.

Were you born outside of Donetsk to an emotionally sadistic mother who cleaned hotel rooms and slept with guests for extra cash? Did you have an alcoholic stepfather who tried to bash your face in with a wrench after you refused to blow him? Did your mother then kick you out of the house for “trying to steal [her] man”? If not, you’re probably not going to have a whole lot of authority in the eyes of the eighteen-year-old who just wants a nice, stable life with some aging paramour in Milwaukee.

Maybe she’ll be happy with him. Maybe not. Maybe she’ll wait for him to die, inherit all his money, get a young boyfriend, and do her thing without ever revealing whether or not she’s happy. Hell, I don’t know. But what’s usually true about relationships that spark up in this manner is that both parties enter into them while pursuing a certain ideal, and their expectations are adjusted accordingly when reality hits.

Sometimes this is positive. Sometimes it’s deadly.

I’ve known people who have entered into such marriages. One was the childhood friend of my cousin on my dad’s side, and she was beaten severely by her first husband, in Spain. After getting out of that relationship, she ended up going straight back to Spain with another dude. She said it’s what she wanted, and the rest of us could take a flying fuck on a rolling donut, as the saying goes. After my cousin’s tragic death, we all lost touch. Who knows what happened to her? I hope she’s happy, but I’m not entirely sure, and in fact, I fear the worst. I’ve seen the look in that woman’s eyes, and it frightened me.

Another one of my cousins, on my mom’s side, has a very good friend who married a man from Denmark, having met him through a dating site or something like that. The two of them ran a business together for many years, and raised a child. Then the woman met another man, a fellow Ukrainian, and skipped out. They still run the business together, and it’s doing well. The guy from Denmark is often in Ukraine, working, and going out to drink with his ex-wife’s friends. He’s unhappy about how his marriage turned out, but he is happy about the money that his savvy Ukrainian wife has made. Who’s to say that arrangement is unequal? Or even bad?

On the other hand, you hear of husbands murdering their wives after discovering that said wives refuse to act like automaton fucking and cooking machines. Such men can prey on poorer foreign women very easily, especially when one considers the fact that dating agencies rarely do background checks or refuse customers based on past record. They’re in it for the money, and if a few women are murdered in the process, it doesn’t bother them a whole lot.

In a men’s magazine I read a few years back, there was a story of a fashion photographer who went to Latin America to search for a bride. He actually boasted to the journalist about how his woman is a “sex machine,” etc. – the usual dehumanization was taking place. Well, they ended up falling out back in the States, and he sent her packing. Then she discovered she was pregnant. And while he admitted that it was going to be difficult for her to find another man after what happened, you could tell, based from the article, that he just couldn’t give a fuck.

Many people, when given the opportunity to treat others like toys, will.

So what do you do about all of this? I don’t know. I know that until conditions markedly improve in my native Ukraine, people are going to want to get out. Until more men realize that women’s sole purpose isn’t to gratify their sexual and culinary needs, they’re going to seek out the vulnerable among us.

And we will keep on keeping on.

Though if I have any ideas about any of this, it’s to stress that all of us, the rich, the poor, the in-between, the misogynists, the crusaders, the quiet and shy, the loud and abrasive – we are all as “real” as the next person.


89 thoughts on Who’s a “real woman” anyway?

  1. How many times have you heard some idiot say something like, “man, I hate American chicks, might as well go to Thailand/El Salvador/Moldova, that’s where the REAL WOMEN are at.”

    Never. Literally not once in my life have I heard anyone say anything even remotely approaching that.

  2. the rest of us could take a flying fuck on a rolling donut

    Okay, that is a beautiful new variation on a familiar saying. I just barked out a laugh so loud it scared my bird.

  3. How many times have you heard some idiot say something like, “man, I hate American chicks, might as well go to Thailand/El Salvador/Moldova, that’s where the REAL WOMEN are at.”

    I couldn’t help but think of the SF author Leo Frankowski (http://leofrankowski.com/content/?q=why_russian_women_are_so_beautiful and other parts of his site). The highlight of that page:

    “The result is that American women developed the same sort of bad habits that the Russian men did. America selected for pushy, annoying women.”

  4. Really? Toast, if you’ve never heard that, then you haven’t read very far on the internets, or you’re incredibly fortunate.

    I’ve only heard someone say it to my face once, but then again I try to avoid people who treat their fellow human beings as their own private playtoys.

  5. The few stories I have heard about in the U.S. in terms of murdered mail order brides (I hate that term, but that is what I have heard it named) is that the women started to become self-sufficient/independent or had affairs. It is illegal to marry an illegal-immigrant so they can stay in the U.S., yet to bring someone here for submission/marriage purposes is wrong. It is pretty clear that bringing someone here that can’t speak the language, has a no or a minimal knowledge of the culture and can’t navigate the legal system gives the husband the power in the relationship to such an extreme height. She is completely dependent on him and in some cases couples can’t speak the same language.

    A friend’s brother married someone this way from eastern Europe, but it looks like it is going well. I have no idea why he chose that route to marry, but he has travelled internationally for work. He may have a healthier attitude about differnet cultures and women’s rights. Since America does not continue a tradition of formal arranged marriages, I question the sanity of some men that look for wives through such services.

  6. toast, you just haven’t been in the right place at the right time i guess. i’ve been told by a german acquaintance, who had casually dated my friend, that he could never marry her or really any other american women because americans were too worried about career and didn’t want to have a big family. and that’s actually the LEAST dehumanizing version of this i’ve heard. the internets are full of guys who are much more direct in wanting a woman to cook and clean and shut up.

  7. Really? Toast, if you’ve never heard that, then you haven’t read very far on the internets, or you’re incredibly fortunate.

    Funny, I just finished a post wherein I share my RSS Feed list. I actually read an unhealthy amount on the ‘net, but it’s probably true that my reading fare is narrowly targeted. A flaw which I’m trying to correct by hanging out here and at a handful of other places where I know people won’t just tell me things that I already “know”.

    toast, you just haven’t been in the right place at the right time i guess.

    I think the issue is that I haven’t seen much of the world outside the U.S. (aside from the Caribbean and Canada, which don’t really count, I’ve only been to Ireland) and that I don’t know a whole lot of world travelers.

  8. the internets are full of guys who are much more direct in wanting a woman to cook and clean and shut up

    I cannot for the life of me imagine wanting to keep company with such a person. The woman who is that way or the guy who wants her. But then, I’ve always had a thing for strong-willed women. Lucky for me I married one.

  9. “How many times have you heard some idiot say something like, “man, I hate American chicks, might as well go to Thailand/El Salvador/Moldova, that’s where the REAL WOMEN are at.”

    I am curious. How many times have you heard this? I have never in my whole life heard anyone say this. And it is definitely NOT because all the men I hang out with are enlightened progressives. Unless there is a lot of men out there who fantasize aloud in public about sex trafficking, I am guessing this is a fairly unusual thing to say.

    Anyway. There is a GREAT piece that NPR did on mail order brides. I wish I could dig it up. But I can’t remember the name of the show nor what date. If anyone knows what I am talking about, do chime in. Basically the show follow men and women who do plan to marry “mail order style”. It nicely detailed the many many power imbalances in such a set up, and ways in which women often get abused with little options of legal recourses. What it also shows is that not all these men are misogynist, raping murders who need cooking done and not all these women were sad, and “whose mother was sadistic” or whatever. In fact, most weren’t.

  10. I saw an excellent documentary about this on… PBS maybe? They interviewed about a half dozen women signing up for the “mail order bride” network and followed them through their choices. Some went back to the US with their new husbands, and I think one decided she’d rather become a career woman and make her own money than ever marry a man she didn’t love. Really interesting, though, I’ll have to find it somewhere…

    Hmm it might have been this: http://inthenameoflovedoc.com/about.php

  11. Reminds me of Hans Reiser.

    Quote from here (describes his trial for murder, at which he was convicted):

    Nina Reiser isn’t the world’s greatest mother; she is a manipulative and deceptive mail-order bride who used her estranged husband, Hans Reiser, to gain United States citizenship, defense attorney William DuBois said Thursday afternoon during his opening remarks.

    With a picture of Nina Reiser’s classified ad in a mail-order bride catalog on the screen, DuBois attacked Deputy District Attorney Paul Hora’s picture of Nina as a caring, devoted mother, saying it was just that: an image.

    “She liked to project the image the prosecution has put before you,” DuBois said, pointing to a portrait Hora had set up in front of the jury showing Nina and her baby son Rory. “The actual Nina Reiser is the one being portrayed here by this European Connections magazine.”

    ……..

    The two met after Hans Reiser rejected another mail-order bride he brought back to the United States for a trial run, DuBois said. That woman said she did not want children so Hans took her back to Russia and met Nina.

    And then he killed Nina.

    Also, I think that defense attorney must be the scum of the earth…

  12. Overheard variants of this from non-Asian adolescents and young dudes at the Japanese anime conventions I’ve been to with friends.

    In their cases it was often phrased like “Japanese girls/women are far more understanding and considerate than Western/American women”. Not surprisingly, most have little to no knowledge of Japanese history, society, and culture beyond the limited popularized anime and manga they’ve seen and read respectively.

    From studying Japanese history and society in some depth and having studied/worked with many Japanese women, the odds are that the vast majority of those Japanophiles are in for a very rude awakening, especially if and when they are past the married/honeymoon stage.

    Though I’ve seen similar “Suzie Wong” stereotype of the submissive Asian female used by non-Asian adolescents and young dudes applied to other East Asian women such as Koreans and Chinese, most end up being quite disappointed when they find that such women can be just as….or in some cases even more aggressive and pushy* than your average Western/American woman.

    * In developing countries where survival depends on being able to struggle to get and stretch out one’s fair share of scarce resources effectively, those traits are not always a negative, but can sometimes be a positive one which ensures the survival of the women concerned and their families. This can be taken to unhealthy extremes as several current mainlander undergrads, including the females I’ve encountered are so aggressive in pursuing their goals of becoming wealthy ASAP that they are walking stereotypes of being excessively materialistic and self-absorbed to the exclusion of any concern for others and the larger society that is often decried by those in my parents generation and older mainlanders…including many in my age group and younger who were old enough to remember the Tienanmen Massacre on June 4, 1989.

  13. Toast:

    the rest of us could take a flying fuck on a rolling donut

    Okay, that is a beautiful new variation on a familiar saying. I just barked out a laugh so loud it scared my bird.

    Actually it’s not new at all. Kurt Vonnegut made that up several decades ago and used it in one of his novels quite frequently.

    While I have not heard a man say exactly those words about finding a “real woman” in the non-U.S. I’ve gotten that feeling from many men whether they are just talking about foreign women being ‘hotter’ or whatever adjective they want. It’s more subtle than the examples you’re giving but I think the mentality is still there.

  14. Actually it’s not new at all. Kurt Vonnegut made that up several decades ago and used it in one of his novels quite frequently.

    Seriously. Fucking FUCK. I like to stay up on shit like that and the “donut variation” of that phrase passed completely under my radar. See, this is why reading Feministe is a Good Thing: My world has expanded. I now have the Kurt Vonnegut “flying fuck on a rolling donut” dagger in my arsenal. I think I like this place. And, yes, it’s the alcohol talking…

  15. Moar funding for women’s shelter, and facilities for women to keep in touch with the community, each other, and improve their employable skills.

    It’ll be harder for Mr.User to disappear his wife if there are people local who care about her whereabouts.

    Insist on meeting his parents and make contact with his nieces and nephews and neighbours. Yes, in-laws can be hell, and treat their daughters in laws like servants. …but the more the in-law is attached to the woman, even if they side with the son, there is still SOME measure of insurance. If the woman’s ONLY connection to the man is the man himself, as his sex toy and servant, well, she’ll have no leverage at all.

  16. To toast and sonja

    Just curious, but are you two members within a racial minority group, and which one?

    White Guys have singled me out and told me they like how feminine I am, when I don’t know them at all they’ve just walked into the cafe. URGH.

    (East Asian)

  17. exholt– I know exactly what you mean, because I am a convention go-er myself. I cannot even begin to explain how creepy it is when guys say they really want a Japanese girlfriend specifically and complain that white girls are loud and fat, because they have fetishized this “exotic beauty”. What’s even creepier is that as I’m looking in semester abroad programs in Japan, most of my peers looking into the same program are these exact types of men. Ewww.

  18. I’m pretty sure it’s “Take a flying fuck at a rolling donut”. &lt/pedantry&gt

  19. Mercurial Georgia,

    In answer to your question. Yes. Although I generally find it um.. boring to engage in discussion on the merits of my identity. (I think A and I am right because I am a woman of color, feminist, queer, immigrant.)

    I do understand that women of color are exotified and sexualized in all sorts of extremely problematic ways. I have met many many men who assume all sorts of stuff about me and my brown sisters that are laughable at best, and ominously creepy at worst. I have many stories.

    But. My comment was just expressing incredulity at that specific quote. Which clearly evokes under-aged traffic victims (I’m gonna find me a woman in Thailand) and mail-order brides from Russia (which is what the post seems to be about.) I just find it difficult to believe that men walk around bragging about these interests. This I think is different from sexualizing women of color in racist ways (although I understand it is related.)

  20. What’s even creepier is that as I’m looking in semester abroad programs in Japan, most of my peers looking into the same program are these exact types of men. Ewww.

    Kelsey Jarboe,

    One thing you can look forward to if their potential experience is anything like some White male Asiaphile classmates in undergrad or at work…..odds are they’ll be shocked and even frightened at how “aggressive”* East Asian Women could be once their own Asiaphiliac delusions are shattered upon meeting them IRL.

    Out of curiosity, how much do those male classmates know about the sociology of the average Japanese family household? Have they heard of the Japanese stereotype of the “Education Mama”? Do they know that most divorces among elderly Japanese couples are initiated by Women and that an increasingly large number of Japanese women are flat-out refusing to get married period and opting to remain single into their 30s and beyond?

    * This stereotype of the demure feminine East Asian/-American women is one most Asian/Asian-American men such as myself sardonically chuckle at as it is so far removed from our experiences with our mothers, older female relatives, sisters, female cousins, girlfriends/spouses, and other Asian/Asian-American females in the course of our lives. If anything, most of the current mainland Chinese female undergrads I’ve encountered are so aggressively ambitious about achieving great wealth ASAP without concerning themselves with the larger social concerns that they are better paragons of 19th century laissez-faire capitalism than current American-born Wall Street/Finance types.

  21. if you google the title of the nonfiction book:

    “hello my big big honey!”

    you will find free excerpts to read (the book’s subtitle is: *love letters to bangkok bar girls and their revealing interviews*)

    this book explains in their own words some of the points you mentioned

  22. “The two met after Hans Reiser rejected another mail-order bride he brought back to the United States for a trial run, DuBois said. That woman said she did not want children so Hans took her back to Russia and met Nina.”

    So he’s the kind of guy who quite literally takes his wife back to the store for a different model, and the defense is trying to insist she was the one with emotional problems?

  23. On the other hand, you hear of husbands murdering their wives after discovering that said wives refuse to act like automaton fucking and cooking machines.

    I think that’s a factor in these guys’ behavior, but I doubt that’s their real gripe. I think exholt is on the right track when she (?) brings up the notion men of this kind seem to like to cultivate: “…Japanese girls/women are far more understanding and considerate than Western/American women”. (For “Japanese”, naturally, you could easily substitute “Korean”, *Ukranian”, or “Thai”. The nationality may vary but the myth stays the same.)

    What is the myth? Well, I’m sure of one thing: it doesn’t have as much to do with the purchasability of cooking and cleaning skills or of bed-services (all of which are buyable of course) as with the commodification of devotion. After all, what are these guys getting married for? They can get a maid to cook and clean and they can get a hooker to have sex with, if all they want is to be fed and watered and laid. The problem is that no man is a hero to his valet, or to his cook, or to a wall-and-floor scrubber hired by the hour, or to a professional sex provider. You can get a maid to cook and clean for money, and you can get a fille de joie to have sex with you for money, but you can’t get either of them to look up to you, or to honor you or cherish you, or to shower you with affection, for any amount of cash. If they tolerate you you’re ahead of the game.

    But “love and honor” is right in there with “obey” in the job description attached to “wife”, and has, in the Western world, superseded it. When an American guy refuses to consider and American woman as a marriage prospect, it’s not because he thinks she won’t cook or clean (you can get an American woman to do housework, as the statics connected with the division of labor by gender vis-a-vis household chores demonstrates) and it’s not because he thinks an American woman won’t boink (you can sure as heck get an American woman to boink). It’s because he thinks an American woman won’t treat him to the kind of wide-eyed jaw-dropped-in-adoration worshipful awe which he thinks is his due. (He’s probably right about that.)

    Here’s where the cross-purposes come in: a woman who has already made a level-headed and clear-eyed decision to trade in those same clear eyes, along with the good skin and teeth and nice tits that go with them, for a comfortable life in Cheboygan, is not liable to be driven to this decision by a mad passion for the man who’s going to take her to Cheboygan. She may like him well enough and she may be resolved to treat him well and to live up to her part in their joint bargain, but if so, once again, he’s ahead of the game. Add to this the circumstance that many women in mail-order-bride situations come from societies where the standard still exists that a wife owes her husband loyalty and respect, but that it doesn’t so much matter if she doesn’t (strictly speaking) love him.

    But that, IMO, is what at least the balance of these guys want: they want love. Not to give it, necessarily, but to receive it. The fantasy (“Southeast Asian women are so considerate!! So serene!!” Etc.) seems to revolve around the idea of having wife who is so deeply in your debt that she will grant you free reign over her emotions without requiring any access to your own. Unfortunately, a mail-order bride’s understanding with her suitor is not one which includes her emotions. So that a man who goes this route will marry, come home, and find out that he has a wife who is serviceable enough, no doubt, but who fails to treat him as though he is his generation’s incarnation of the Prophet. Consequently he gets hacked off and haunted by a feeling that he’s been cheated, and lo, the stage is thereupon set for a Bad Outcome.

    (You might be able to tell from the comment posted above that I have no problem with arranged marriage or with mail-order wedlock as such, but that I do think that some of the men who enter into these arrangements enter into them with unrealistic expectations. JMO.)

  24. I read that a pervasive reason for japanese women to refuse to get married is because japanese society is so pervasively sexist that married women practically have fewer rights than single women (outside the home), and that there is *very* little concern for the welfare of japanese mothers, such that a divoice (or widowhood) to a woman with children has very negative consequences. Services that benefit such women are poorly funded and utilizing them often involves large loss of face.

  25. No need to be sophisticated bekabot,

    Maids and valets and prostitutes add up to real cash. A “wife”, not so much, beyond room and board.

  26. “toast, you just haven’t been in the right place at the right time i guess. i’ve been told by a german acquaintance, who had casually dated my friend, that he could never marry her or really any other american women because americans were too worried about career and didn’t want to have a big family. and that’s actually the LEAST dehumanizing version of this i’ve heard.”

    That’s not dehumanizing, it’s simply a preference. If a man wants a big family than it’s stupid to marry someone who doesn’t, and if he wants his kids to be parented, not just dumped off to strangers at daycare then it’s silly to marry a career woman. The guy just wants a wife, not a pseudo-husband, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Just like if a woman likes to be a fem-dom and her man to be a sub or she wants to be a CEO with a househusband, that’s her preference. But calling it ‘dehumanizing’ merely highlights a poor grasp of either English or reality.

    I have noticed this trend though of men saying “Stay clear of Western women; only marry a chick from Russia, Mexico, or (insert third world countries ad nauseum)”.

    I’d attribute this to two things.

    Firstly women from these countries often act a little more ladylike (e.g. avoid swearing, farting, obnoxious – not playful – man-bashing) and traditionally (e.g. support men making the money, and women tending to the home and family, and often more religious).

    And secondly women from these countries believe marriage is a lifelong commitment, and certainly don’t use terms like “starter husband” in their native cultures (http://www.marieclaire.com/life/sex/advice/starter-husband). A lot of men have heard the horror stories and read the statistics about divorce in America, and want more than just Til-Inconvienence-Do-Us-Part

    That being said, I don’t support this. Western women aren’t inherently wonderful or terrible (although I think they’re the greatest since sliced bread), like women the world over they behave as well as you lead them to. If a woman cheats, farts, and walks all over her man, that says more about him than it does her. Most of these men have no game (as a result are rejected by Western women), and parlay the promise of (relative) wealth and security to attract women. Some travel to Thailand where their Western dress and countenance brand them as walking dollar signs, and others just go the mail order bride route.

    Do the men pursuing mail order brides want to dominate them? Hard to say – many likely do, but most are probably just desperate. If you want to be large and in charge, why would any man in his right mind give a woman the legal and financial power over him that divorce confers upon wives in the West? Just look at Heather Mills. Marriage nowadays offers men only absurd risk and benefits that can be gotten in much smarter ways.

  27. Oh, I don’t know. Some of the dating services men who are in the market for Ukrainian or Thai fiancées employ charge a pretty nice premium. (Of course these tend to be the more high-end organizations; the ones which promise to set men who have cash to spare up with the more toothsome women.) But even if you broker your marriage through the Internet, there’s usually a plane ticket to buy and a meetup to arrange, and then, if matters turn out satisfactorily, there are more plane tickets to buy, incidental expenses to meet, things that turn up that are going to cost money, and so forth. And this is only the outset of the marriage.

    If you’re talking bare-bones dollars-and-cents, the most economical thing to do is to fall for the girl next door, make absolutely sure she doesn’t have expensive tastes, make absolutely sure she doesn’t mind being married before a justice of the peace, then do the thing that way. If the sort of men who are prone to marry foreign women whom they meet via dating sites were interested saving as much money as they possibly could, that’s the way they’d manage…but that’s not the way they manage: they go haring off to Sebastopol instead. Which leads me to my theory that they’re after something else.

  28. “Firstly women from these countries often act a little more ladylike (e.g. avoid swearing, farting, obnoxious – not playful – man-bashing) and traditionally (e.g. support men making the money, and women tending to the home and family, and often more religious).

    And secondly women from these countries believe marriage is a lifelong commitment, and certainly don’t use terms like “starter husband” in their native cultures (http://www.marieclaire.com/life/sex/advice/starter-husband). A lot of men have heard the horror stories and read the statistics about divorce in America, and want more than just Til-Inconvienence-Do-Us-Part”

    SPARE ME your analysis on how “women from these countries” behave and what they truly believe. Ugh.

  29. Amazing article. I laughed out loud at the flying fuck on a rolling donut. Not heard that before, but I’ll certainly remember it! As for the wankstain in the article who wants to find “real women”, well then I can only discern from that that he’s fed up with the “fake” women he’s run into. Fake to him, meaning they are true to themselves and refuse to shoehorn themselves into some outmoded notions of femininity. Fake to him because they refuse to bend to his whims, whatever depravity that might involve. Real women IMHO, have their own minds, their own life, and their independence WITHOUT a man’s permission to do any of it regardless of what country they’re from. I’ve had it with men who want to mold me into some ideal so I’ll gladly continue to be single.

  30. I agree with Fantompowa. Wanting a woman who acts ladylike and cares more about her family enough not to throw her children into 24 hour daycare or dope them up on Ritalin to avoid real parenting is not “dehumanizing,” and anyone who describes it as such ought to re-evaluate their attitudes towards society, men, and family.

    That said, the whole “women from [insert third world country] are better” sentiment is just desperately wishful thinking. ALL cultures ALL over the world have good and bad points, and romanticising any one of them is rather pathetic.

    The fact is, many people in the West are bitter and feel they’re being given the raw deal when it comes to how they are treated by their husbands or wives…has is ever occured to you that they may have a point? When I talk to guy after guy after guy (I’m a man) who go home to cold, manipulative wives who do nothing but emasculate, nag, and make demands, I must conclude that there’s something to their feelings. When every woman I get close to gets angry at me whenever I express anger or resentment at something she did, how am I at fault for concluding that something is very, very wrong with our culture?

    Of course, many American men behave this way also, and the very concept of a “mail order bride” carries, in my mind, an inherent sleeze to it that makes me rather sick. Contemporary society seems to be cultivating a nasty level of narcissism in both sexes. But I don’t date men, so my focus is on women.

    Men have feelings, and want to be respected and loved without everything being turned into a power struggle just as women do. Marriage is a marketplace, and when nobody’s buying your product you must consider that the problem may be with YOU rather than the customer. Don’t gripe about them looking to shop elsewhere.

  31. Seconded, sonia. That entire post was within about an inch of every paranoid anti-IMBRA polemic I’ve read. But where are teh menz supposed to gooooo? Western women are such mean-ass gold-digging whores!

    Also, wives who have careers are “pseudo-husbands”? Nice.

  32. Seriously, Fantompowa, are you not getting the blindingly huge difference between “I want a big family so will seek a partner who wants a big family” and “I want a big family so I will instantly exclude all of Ethnic/National Group A from my list of prospective partners”?

  33. Fantompowa, are you really serious about what you’re saying? Your generalizations about “women from these countries” seem to be founded on your own preconceived stereotypes rather than reality. Unsavory as it may be for you to consider, I promise you that Mexican and Russian women fart. They have biological functions just like the rest of us, because they are humans and not sexbots that exist only for your titillation. Your horror at the the term “starter husband” is also pretty strange in light of the fact that the equivalent phrase for women, “trophy wife,” is much more prevalent and longstanding. It hardly seems fair to talk about marriage as detrimental to men but not women in that context, given that the phenomenon of “trophy wives” trumps the trend of “starter husbands” by far.

    Also I really just can’t tell you how disgusting the phrase “women the world over they behave as well as you lead them to” is. Funny thing about humans is that they are not dogs; they are independent human beings. Maybe you didn’t know women were humans? They are! If a man “cheats, farts, and walks all over his woman,” is that because it’s the way she trained him? Or is it because he’s a human being with his own motivations and flaws (not to mention bodily functions)?

  34. “How many times have you heard some idiot say something like, “man, I hate American chicks, might as well go to Thailand/El Salvador/Moldova, that’s where the REAL WOMEN are at.”

    Actually, I have heard it more times than I’d like to. Particularly a few times from my step-father. His first wife was from Germany, and then he married my mom, a Mexican-American woman. He thinks that American or Americanized women are much too rebellious and that “they will cheat if they feel you have wronged them,” as opposed to “foreign” women.

    It’s pretty disgusting.

  35. UGH! This reminds me of this site. http://nomarriage.com/ I think it was posted on here a long time ago or on Feministing.

    – You will understand how and why American women (American woman = modern western woman from any country) always change for the worse after marriage.
    – It will help you determine if your girlfriend will make a good wife.
    – If you are already married, the e-book will help you decide if you should stay with your wife (the book purchase will appear on your CC statement as IIS).
    – Much more to help you decide if you want to get married and have children in the near future.

  36. Dear Fantompowa

    You probably didn’t intend it, but I find your views scary. The right to divorce doesn’t give a woman rights over a man, it gives her right over herself. The right to divorce also give a man power over himself. The one who stays home or play Support is entitled to half, or at least enough support to be comfortable as their years supporting their spouses have taken them out of the job market, making them difficult for employment. Don’t want to be screwed by ‘Heather Mills’? Don’t marry (buy) someone for support, marry a career woman. Heck, if she makes more than you, and YOU stay home, you get the alimony.

    If you don’t want a divorce, don’t get marry. If you would like to avoid a divorce, think before you jump in, and remember to work on it. Divorce is and must remain, a right for all parties involved. The moment someone can’t leave, if they want to leave, marriage becomes imprisonment, which is a BAD thing. It’s sad that there are men out there so insecure that they want a woman to stay No Matter What (translation; regardless of how horrible he deeply believes or understand himself to be), and hey, she’ll have to be a Lady too.

    …What Is A Lady? ..and why must women ‘Act Like Ladies’? What will we get in turn and will it be worth it?

  37. It’s because he thinks an American woman won’t treat him to the kind of wide-eyed jaw-dropped-in-adoration worshipful awe which he thinks is his due. (He’s probably right about that.)

    Yeesh. IOW, some men want to be worshiped as effective Gods?!! Talk about an overentitled desire for endless power-trips for merely existing…..sounds like the stereotyped negative effects of the “self-esteem movement” in American public schools during the 1970s and 80s. 🙄

  38. Fantompowa said,

    That being said, I don’t support this. Western women aren’t inherently wonderful or terrible …. like women the world over they behave as well as you lead them to.

    You MUST be lost.

  39. “Dear Fantompowa

    You probably didn’t intend it, but I find your views scary. The right to divorce doesn’t give a woman rights over a man, it gives her right over herself.”

    Well, I suspect a lot of benign things scare you.
    Marriage does give a woman a massive amount of power of you. They can divorce you an take half your assets. In most states of the union if a wife cheats and gets pregnant, the husband can be forced to pay child support for a child which isn’t even his, regardless of whether he contests it with DNA evidence.

    “The right to divorce also give a man power over himself. The one who stays home or play Support is entitled to half, or at least enough support to be comfortable as their years supporting their spouses have taken them out of the job market, making them difficult for employment. Don’t want to be screwed by ‘Heather Mills’? Don’t marry (buy) someone for support, marry a career woman. Heck, if she makes more than you, and YOU stay home, you get the alimony.”

    You should get money, since you were removed from the labor pool, but why on earth should a woman (or man) get the sort of astronomical sums Heather Mills got?

    “If you don’t want a divorce, don’t get marry. If you would like to avoid a divorce, think before you jump in, and remember to work on it. Divorce is and must remain, a right for all parties involved. The moment someone can’t leave, if they want to leave, marriage becomes imprisonment, which is a BAD thing. It’s sad that there are men out there so insecure that they want a woman to stay No Matter What (translation; regardless of how horrible he deeply believes or understand himself to be), and hey, she’ll have to be a Lady too.”

    lol I’m not sure how you got the impression that I think divorce shouldn’t be allowed. I’m never getting married so I really don’t care if it is or not. I’m just saying that marriage is a good thing to avoid if you don’t want the financial equivalent of getting fisted in the ass.

    “…What Is A Lady? ..and why must women ‘Act Like Ladies’? What will we get in turn and will it be worth it?”

    You may as well ask me to define Zen. It’s something that can’t really be covered in this length of space.

    But I can tell you that any women asking “what do I get” isn’t a lady. Just as any man holding a door open for a women thinking “what do I get” or “will this be worth it” is not a gentleman, even though he may be aping gentlemanly behavior.

    “Your horror at the the term “starter husband” is also pretty strange in light of the fact that the equivalent phrase for women, “trophy wife,” is much more prevalent and longstanding. It hardly seems fair to talk about marriage as detrimental to men but not women in that context, given that the phenomenon of “trophy wives” trumps the trend of “starter husbands” by far.”

    Heh, there’s no ‘horror’ at the term. Again, I’m never getting married, so I really don’t care one way or the other what happens to the institution of marriage in America. And maybe we’ve heard the term “trophy wife” more frequently, but the fact remains that women initiate divorce 70% of the time.

    “Also I really just can’t tell you how disgusting the phrase “women the world over they behave as well as you lead them to” is. Funny thing about humans is that they are not dogs; they are independent human beings. Maybe you didn’t know women were humans?”

    Football players are human beings too. If one member of the team plays terribly I’ll make conclusions about the player – if the whole team plays poorly I’ll make conclusions about the coach.

    Leading people isn’t dehumanizing. If you meet someone from Darfur or North Korea maybe they can give you some real examples of ‘dehumanization’; something you’ve never experienced in your life if you were born in America and never been the victim of a felony. Leading a woman (or man) in a relationship isn’t any more ‘dehumanizing’ than leading them in a dance, and frankly that’s an obnoxious and ignorant misuse of the English language.

    “They are! If a man “cheats, farts, and walks all over his woman,” is that because it’s the way she trained him? Or is it because he’s a human being with his own motivations and flaws (not to mention bodily functions)?”

    Yes, yes it is. A Hillary Clinton might get those sort of results; a Ninon de l’Enclos wouldn’t.

  40. [i]Leading people isn’t dehumanizing. If you meet someone from Darfur or North Korea maybe they can give you some real examples of ‘dehumanization’; something you’ve never experienced in your life if you were born in America and never been the victim of a felony. Leading a woman (or man) in a relationship isn’t any more ‘dehumanizing’ than leading them in a dance, and frankly that’s an obnoxious and ignorant misuse of the English language.[/i]

    You’re fucking kidding, right? Right?

    No, you do not get to declare yourself the “leader” in a relationship. Yes, it fucking is dehumanizing to place yourself in a position of superiority over someone who’s supposed to be your partner in an equal institution.

    [i]Yes, yes it is. A Hillary Clinton might get those sort of results; a Ninon de l’Enclos wouldn’t.[/i]

    …Yeah, Roxie’s got it. You really [b]MUST[/b] be lost.

  41. So by your logic, fantompowa, “women the world over they behave as well as you lead them to” AND men behave the way women lead them to? If everyone is just being led, who is doing the leading? I must admit to being a little confused. At first I thought you just meant that if one person is dominant in a relationship, the other member’s personality will be molded by that domination. But upon closer inspection that doesn’t seem to be what you’re implying at all. Your phrasing is: if a woman does X, it’s because she’s been trained to do so by her partner, and if a man does X, it’s because he’s been trained to do so by his partner. Do any of us have any agency or are we all just trained pets? That would be egalitarian, if completely illogical.

    And I don’t know about you, but I’ve always thought that relationships should be between equals, not between a couple in which one person condescends to train the other person. Saying that I am responsible for my boyfriend’s behavior denies him humanity because it reduces him to a collection of thoughtless and automatic reactions rather than someone who can intelligently deliberate and act as he wants. It evokes images of trained animals and automatons. Sounds oddly like the very definition of the word “dehumanizing,” doesn’t it?

    In fact, if we’re talking about an “obnoxious and ignorant misuse of the English language,” it might be more appropriate to look at your own definition of dehumanization, which seems to lack all sense of nuance. I don’t know if you knew this about words, but they can refer to different situations with various degrees of intensity. When you accidentally run over a squirrel, it is sad; it is also sad when someone breaks up with you. You will probably find that one is sadder than the other, and sad in a different way, but you can use the word “sad” in both contexts. When I got groped by a stranger, it was dehumanizing in that I was treated like an object whose purpose was sexual pleasure for a stranger, rather than like a person with my own wishes (you know, the definition of the word “dehumanize”?). People in Darfur and North Korea have experienced things more dehumanizing than that, and dehumanizing in somewhat different ways, but both situations still fit the definition of the word. You can “obnoxiously and igorantly” try to change that definition if you want, but I doubt you will get very far.

  42. I am curious. How many times have you heard this?

    To my face? About 6 times (and, I believe, 4 out of those times were in airports – I travel a lot). On the net? Erm, a whole lot. You should see the moderation queue at my blog sometime.

    People often think that they’re giving me a compliment when they say those things, you see. The wrongness of it escapes them. They don’t mean to talk about trafficking victims (though the concepts are interrelated), they think they’re being worldly and gallant.

    No need to be sophisticated bekabot,

    Actually, I think bekabot has a point or two. A lot of these men want companionship. The problem is, their idea of companionship can be seriously damaging to both them and the woman they end up with.

    They’re chasing after a fantasy, forgetting that a real human being is at the other end of that fantasy.

    Leading a woman (or man) in a relationship isn’t any more ‘dehumanizing’ than leading them in a dance, and frankly that’s an obnoxious and ignorant misuse of the English language.

    I’m sorry, I think it can be severely dehumanizing, to both involved. I haven’t seen a truly unequal marriage that didn’t have nasty consequences, though sometimes such consequences are quite subtle.

    It’s different if, for example, one party (either male or female) decides to stay home and the other party works. People make that work.

    But when one party has decided that they’re a Superior Being, and they make the decisions, and so on – it’s a disaster. This disaster may not even be evident until after the kids grow up, but a disaster nonetheless.

    If you meet someone from Darfur or North Korea maybe they can give you some real examples of ‘dehumanization’; something you’ve never experienced in your life if you were born in America and never been the victim of a felony.

    I wasn’t born in the States. I’ve been a victim of multiple felonies. Dehumanization takes many forms.

  43. Marriage does give a woman a massive amount of power of you. They can divorce you an take half your assets.

    What you obviously fail to understand is that the assets belong to both people, so it’s equally split. If the woman earns more than the man, the man “takes” some of her assets. Due to the socio-political situation in most of the world, it’s usually the woman who has earned less, but that’s often due to the simple fact that she has stayed at home and looked after the children.

    I’m just saying that marriage is a good thing to avoid if you don’t want the financial equivalent of getting fisted in the ass.

    I know this is going to surprise you, but most people don’t marry expecting to get divorced. They usually marry out of love. Also, most divorces are fairly painless for all involved.

    Leading a woman (or man) in a relationship isn’t any more ‘dehumanizing’ than leading them in a dance, and frankly that’s an obnoxious and ignorant misuse of the English language.

    If you can’t see the difference between leading someone in a dance and in a relationship, then you have some serious problems.

    A dance is a set of predefined moves, that takes two people to execute. A relationship is the continuous interaction between two people, where both has to take and give, to get it to work. There is a world of difference, and the fact that you think that saying so, is a ignorant misuse of the English language, speaks volumes about you.

  44. To those saying that they’ve never heard the “real woman” sentiment:

    This string has me in complete disgust! Let me tell you all…all of you feminist, male bashing\hating\demeaning bitches, you are the reason so many American men are looking for (and finding) beautiful , intelligent , talented, warm and loving women abroad …Ukraine and Russia in particular, because they are disgusted with your feminist bullshit! Go to your Gay Pride parade but don’t expect any intelligent and decent man to accompany you ! You just don’t get it … Men were not created to have sex with men….they cannot procreate and neither can a woman who wants to role play being a man with a strap-on! Take your LESBIAN feminist bullshit and look for some ignorant mama’ boy and turn him into less than a man.that is the feminist goal and that is why REAL American men despise all of you and look for FEMININE …..REAL women , who love being a woman and LOVE and RESPECT REAL men and need to go far away to find a WONDERFUL woman he can truly love and Respect and create a FAMILY with with intentions of remaining married FOREVER !

    That’s from this thread a a week or so back here at Feministe. Yes, internet trolls tend to be a little more blatant about things like this than someone who you were speaking to in real life might be, but the sentiment is definately there.

    exholt–Am I a bad person for hoping they insult the wrong boyband and get a taste of fangirl ire?

  45. “# Lauren O says:
    July 6th, 2008 at 3:08 am – Edit

    So by your logic, fantompowa, “women the world over they behave as well as you lead them to” AND men behave the way women lead them to? If everyone is just being led, who is doing the leading? I must admit to being a little confused. At first I thought you just meant that if one person is dominant in a relationship, the other member’s personality will be molded by that domination. But upon closer inspection that doesn’t seem to be what you’re implying at all. Your phrasing is: if a woman does X, it’s because she’s been trained to do so by her partner, and if a man does X, it’s because he’s been trained to do so by his partner. Do any of us have any agency or are we all just trained pets? That would be egalitarian, if completely illogical.”

    Everyone leads each other, gives each other cues about how they expect to be treated, what they will put up with. Everyone moves everyone. No one ever has total control over another person (with the exception of maybe a cult or Stockholm Syndrome) and no person is ever without at least some influence in the relationship, even in a lopsided one (otherwise we’d still have segregation and India would be ruled by the British).

    And if you’re experiencing something repeatedly over several relationships (e.g. cheating, disrespect, abuse, lying, etc.) there’s something you are doing to attract this same kind of person, communicate this is permissible, and there probably won’t be any consequences.

    Equality exists in three places 1. before the eyes of God (or maybe the Goddess ;p) 2. Mathematics and 3. Jurisprudence (although in the actual practice of law this breaks down quickly once factors like corruption, money, celebrity, race, sex, human error, etc. enter the picture). All of these with the possible exception of heavenly equality are abstract and utterly useless for worldly purposes. No human relationship (platonic or otherwise) is ever or has ever been equal. One person always has more say, more influence, about what the group will be doing, and about what is permissible and what is not.

    “And I don’t know about you, but I’ve always thought that relationships should be between equals, not between a couple in which one person condescends to train the other person. Saying that I am responsible for my boyfriend’s behavior denies him humanity because it reduces him to a collection of thoughtless and automatic reactions rather than someone who can intelligently deliberate and act as he wants. It evokes images of trained animals and automatons. Sounds oddly like the very definition of the word “dehumanizing,” doesn’t it?

    In fact, if we’re talking about an “obnoxious and ignorant misuse of the English language,” it might be more appropriate to look at your own definition of dehumanization, which seems to lack all sense of nuance. I don’t know if you knew this about words, but they can refer to different situations with various degrees of intensity. When you accidentally run over a squirrel, it is sad; it is also sad when someone breaks up with you. You will probably find that one is sadder than the other, and sad in a different way, but you can use the word “sad” in both contexts. When I got groped by a stranger, it was dehumanizing in that I was treated like an object whose purpose was sexual pleasure for a stranger, rather than like a person with my own wishes (you know, the definition of the word “dehumanize”?). People in Darfur and North Korea have experienced things more dehumanizing than that, and dehumanizing in somewhat different ways, but both situations still fit the definition of the word. You can “obnoxiously and igorantly” try to change that definition if you want, but I doubt you will get very far.”

    I understand there are degrees of intensity, and when you got groped that definitely fits the bill of dehumaniztion. A man leading in a tango, setting the tone of a relationship, or making the decisions about whether him and his girl are going to the movies or paintballing for the afternoon however, is not. And that’s the kind of leading I’m talking about.

    I prefer open relationships, women aren’t objects and I don’t care if my gals see other men or women, or what they do when I’m not with them. I respect their independence and humanity way more than most of the people who blather about some non-existent equality.

    “# Misspelled says:
    July 6th, 2008 at 2:42 am – Edit

    [i]Leading people isn’t dehumanizing. If you meet someone from Darfur or North Korea maybe they can give you some real examples of ‘dehumanization’; something you’ve never experienced in your life if you were born in America and never been the victim of a felony. Leading a woman (or man) in a relationship isn’t any more ‘dehumanizing’ than leading them in a dance, and frankly that’s an obnoxious and ignorant misuse of the English language.[/i]

    You’re fucking kidding, right? Right?

    No, you do not get to declare yourself the “leader” in a relationship. Yes, it fucking is dehumanizing to place yourself in a position of superiority over someone who’s supposed to be your partner in an equal institution.”

    Heh. Well, I’ve never heard any complaints. Although I have heard “You’re never gonna change right?” or something similar on more than one occasion. I’m not sure where you get off telling people in relationships you’re not part of what they can and can’t do, but it’s pretty obvious who the real control freak here is.

    PS can someone gimme some pointers on how tags/quote boxes work here?

  46. Oh jeez. I love the younger generation, don’t get me wrong, but it’s so frustrating when some spotty little git starts lecturing on the proper way to be a lady, and How We Should Live… Always starting again at the unreconstructed beginning!

    Twenty feminists with twenty mops, or something…

  47. I dunno much about tangoing, Fantompowa, but I will say that when often my boyfriend and I make decisions together regarding whether to go to a movie, picnicking or paint-balling or whatever. Also, we both set the tone in the relationship because we are both equal parts with equal needs and desires. We often take turns compromising to make the other happy as well, this is part of being in a healthy, balanced relationship.
    I wouldn’t necessarily allow a man to “lead me around” if I genuinely cared about him. Back in my single days, I might’ve let a man that I was seeing feel like he was “leading me around” but I was definitely getting mine in some way.
    Then I grew up and started craving an adult relationship where both people worked to make the other happy.

  48. exholt–Am I a bad person for hoping they insult the wrong boyband and get a taste of fangirl ire?

    Not really.

    Not sure how effective that will be, though, with certain people as I will admit to having made fun of Vanilla Ice and NKOB back when they were at their peak of popularity in my early high school years (Hey, I was 13 back then!). If anything, the reactions of the fangirls and some fanboys only confirmed my preconceived notions of those fans being immature teenyboppers…especially when their only viable comeback was a variant of “Oh, you’re just too poor and uncultured to enjoy good music” as I had no musical equipment beyond a 1960’s era radio until I graduated from high school. Looking back on it now, those weak comebacks prompt many chuckles…especially as some of those former Vanilla Ice/NKOB fans have begged me to never reveal their youthful indiscretions to those who didn’t know them in high school…..

    To be fair, I received the same type of ribbing in college from classmates for liking the Cranberries, Green Day, and some from Chinese classmates for liking Teresa Teng’s music as they felt it belonged to their parents generation and thus, too old fashioned which is funny considering she had such a huge influence on Chinese popular music from the 1960’s onwards and the fact several more recent pop stars like Faye Wong covered several of her songs.

    Then again, I probably don’t know how serious fangirl/boy ire can be as I was an adolescent right before the internet became a widespread mainstreamed phenomenon in the mid-1990s. I’d probably feel differently if they had fangirl/boy forums where they could mobilize billions of fans to spam my online email account(s). The only taste I’ve received was those who are rabidly Pro-Microsoft, or Pro-Apple on various computer technology forums….though I have a hard time taking them seriously when they often omit and attempt to deny well-known bugs, flaws, and otherwise argue more from their extreme fangurl/boi* idolization and revealing their cluelessness/denial in the process.

    * Spelling I’ve seen used to ridicule this tendency among them in computer technology forums.

  49. also:

    If a woman cheats, farts, and walks all over her man, that says more
    about him than it does her.

    -poot- Awfully sorry, there…

    The things I learn. So, if I’d been a happily married hetero woman,
    I’d cease to be flatulent, ever? (I mean, presuming he kept me in
    line). no wonder they’re trying to protect the sanctity of marriage, then! blimey, this homosexualist lesbean feminazi agenda is more insidious than I thought.

  50. I think one reason some American men dislike American women is because they only *know* American women, and by getting to know them, American men have seen American women fall off their pedestals.
    They don’t want thinking, feeling, farting, opinionated HUMAN BEING partners, and they think those “negative” qualities must be an American thing, when really it’s just a human being thing. So they decide “those OTHER women mustn’t be this way.”

  51. SarahMC, I’m glad it did turn up as a link… Jesus Christ, I’ve encountered a lot of anti-feminist nutbaggery on the intarwebs, but that man is very, very special.

    This

    Charge of Endangerment (Code Orange) – The Elevated Threat Charge

    Discussion: The target is accused of being a menace in some undefined manner. This charge may be coupled with some attempt to censor the target. Examples:

    “You guys are scary.”

    “You make me feel afraid.”

    Response: It may be constructive to point out that only bigots and tyrants are afraid of having the truth expressed to them. One may also ask why some women think they can handle leadership roles if they are so threatened by a man’s legitimate freedom of expression.

    scared the shit out of me (somewhat ironically, I guess). I can imagine what types of situations he’s referring to, but I’d really rather not. I mean, holy shit.

    The “real man” quiz was extremely enjoyable, however. I only got an 80; I have to admit I was thrown by the non-combustible energy question. Who knew that “real men” had such grave concerns over environmental policy? Or that they were so vehemently anti-Limewire? And I particularly like this, though I’m not quite sure why:

    I have an anecdote about my ex wife. I recently corresponded with her just before a hurricane was to strike where I live. She offered that I could stay with her in the event of evacuation. It was a gracious invitation. Yet, in her email she stated, “I’m sure my boyfriend won’t mind”. It was that one sentence revealed her true nature. It summarized everything that is so unappealing about American women and was a stark reminder of the reasons behind our divorce. Imagine, she invites her ex husband to stay with her but does not ask her boyfriend? Has she no respect for his feelings in this matter? That one sentence in her email is damning of her and insulting to him. I wish him luck.

    Yeah, how dare that selfish bitch value your health and safety, and possibly your life, over the prudence of immediately obtaining her boyfriend’s approval. Fucking whore.

    And how rewarding to make it to the end of that screed only to see him sign off as “LatinasOnly.” Ah, my hero.

  52. PS can someone gimme some pointers on how tags/quote boxes work here?

    For bold and italics, just what you’re doing except with these: instead of these: [ ]

    For quotes put the word blockquote inside them.

    Hope that helps.

  53. Damn. I was afraid that would happen. You use > < but the other way around. They don’t show up in my post if I put them in the right order. Hope this makes sense.

  54. OMG, and I totally missed the random anti-Semitic angle. That is some vicious shit.

    I wonder if these guys can bring themselves to leave the house anymore, or if being in the presence of anyone but RealMen™ and silent, docile, “physically symmetrical” women causes their frustrated little heads to implode. On the forums there’s a barely-coherent account of a Fourth of July parade that made one of them all sad and angry, because women can get divorces. Or something. It also includes a lovely anecdote about how he got taken to family court on a domestic violence charge — poor beleaguered man — and the judge interrupted his attorney before he got to make the argument that it wasn’t domestic violence, because he’d only gone out with “this girl” a handful of times. Would you believe it? Times are indeed changing for the worse when a fine upstanding American man can’t even hit a woman without being accused of hitting a woman he’s dating. Sometimes I just don’t know.

    Okay, I think I’m done. Sorry.

  55. i’m of two minds about these things. i mean, it really bums me out on one level. the thing that is really weird is that these horrible misogynist racists, they look like normal people. and i tend to assume the best of people until they prove me wrong. but when i read things like this, it sort of depreciates my collective opinion of everyone i meet, since it increases the likelihood that they are complete and utter toolbags. maybe they could arrange to have little nametags or something? like, “hello, i’m a men’s rights activist.” everyone who is a fan of that site could get one. or how about “i exoticize and stereotype non-white women.” and then i wouldn’t have to talk to them. they could go off and do their own little thing without ruining my day. i could just walk around them. or whatever.
    however, another part of me – the cynical part, i suppose – is endlessly amused by their tirades. i do think it’s funny that any time somebody gets fed up and makes a smartass witticism about these asshats, they go “look, she’s so angry! see what i meeaan? why are u trying to ristrict my freedom of speech, manhatter!!??!?!1! u r contradicting ur own self!” so i don’t mind being called an angry feminist, because honestly the irony of it – and the intensity and obviousness of the emotional projection – just slays me. really, i could laugh all day. and that guy with the “gay parade” comment? “no intelligent man will go with you”? the man who can’t punctuate to save his life is intelligent? oh god, when was the last time you read something so funny? you could hardly even make that shit up. at first i was worried it was someone making fun of misogynists, because it was just too good to be true.
    every part of me that hasn’t become a cynical asshole, however, died a little when i read it.

  56. Much appreciated, Lottie/

    lol I think one of my comments got deleted; I’m just surprised since it was mindblowingly tame.

    belledame222 says:

    -poot- Awfully sorry, there…

    The things I learn. So, if I’d been a happily married hetero woman,
    I’d cease to be flatulent, ever? (I mean, presuming he kept me in
    line). no wonder they’re trying to protect the sanctity of marriage, then! blimey, this homosexualist lesbean feminazi agenda is more insidious than I thought.

    I’m not sure how you got the impression I have any use for marriage or women who aren’t bi, let alone repressing gays. You could try actually reading posts before going into pigeonhole-and-squawk mode.

    And all women fart, just some have the manners to leave the room first or hold it in. I’m a lot pickier than most men, but I think the majority of men would ceteris paribus take classy over trashy any day of the week.

    less13lee says:
    July 6th, 2008 at 11:10 am – Edit

    I dunno much about tangoing, Fantompowa, but I will say that when often my boyfriend and I make decisions together regarding whether to go to a movie, picnicking or paint-balling or whatever. Also, we both set the tone in the relationship because we are both equal parts with equal needs and desires. We often take turns compromising to make the other happy as well, this is part of being in a healthy, balanced relationship.
    I wouldn’t necessarily allow a man to “lead me around” if I genuinely cared about him. Back in my single days, I might’ve let a man that I was seeing feel like he was “leading me around” but I was definitely getting mine in some way.
    Then I grew up and started craving an adult relationship where both people worked to make the other happy.

    I’m wondering from your 2nd paragraph if by leading around you think I meant “stringing along”. But I’m glad to hear your setup works for you, it sounds like it’s going well. One size doesn’t fit all, and if you’re happy more power to both of you.

  57. Fantompowa, you need to get off the farting thing, seriously. It’s just making you look completely unbalanced.

  58. Fantompowa, you need to get off the farting thing, seriously. It’s just making you look completely unbalanced.

    So many different weird humorous implications one can take with those two sentences….

  59. i love the fact that women are supposed to have enough courtesy to hold it in whilst in the presence of a man.
    how’s he supposed to properly lead you if you’re farting up a storm? better you cause yourself serious gastro-intestinal issues than let him know that you are a human with a digestive system.

    and earlier in my post when i stated that i’ve let men think that were “leading me” in the past what i meant was that putting work into a relationship is tough. any man who doesn’t consider his partner an equal is probably not worth the effort.
    therefore, in my single days, i would allow the men i was dating to call the shots (in terms of deciding what to do/where to go on dates) to a certain extent because i was more or less wasting time with them until i met someone cool.
    that’s what i meant by that.

  60. [blockquote]I cannot for the life of me imagine wanting to keep company with such a person. The woman who is that way or the guy who wants her. But then, I’ve always had a thing for strong-willed women. Lucky for me I married one.[/blockquote]

    When the only chance at sufferable life is getting married and becoming submissive cooking-cleaning machine, it’s much more reasonable to become one in a developed country. It doesn’t really matter how strong the woman is.

  61. And all women fart, just some have the manners to leave the room first or hold it in.

    Question for ya, are men supposed to hold it in or leave the room too, or is that just the ladies?

  62. I’m not sure how you got the impression I have any use for marriage or women who aren’t bi, let alone repressing gays. You could try actually reading posts before going into pigeonhole-and-squawk mode.

    And all women fart, just some have the manners to leave the room first or hold it in. I’m a lot pickier than most men, but I think the majority of men would ceteris paribus take classy over trashy any day of the week.

    Dude. pigeonhole and squawk now, AND farting. Noisy Woman Is Rude Woman. 🙁

    And, no, actually I didn’t accuse you of repressing anyone, and I don’t really give a shit what you do or don’t have any use for; I’m just mocking you for being a pompous dickhead. Sorry for the confusion, really.

    but, you know, you get on with your “picky” self, I mean, you know, I’m sure you’ve earned it, what with the Latin and shit.

  63. Roses: not if they’re classy, they don’t. One must be able to distinguish the hoi polloi from the truly worthy, after all. Quod erat demonstrandum; a posteriori -poot- o excuse me

  64. Begging your pardon, belledame, but the truly well-bred distinguish Latin from Greek, so I fear your “hoi polloi” is out of place – now, if you meant “plebians”….

  65. Belledame222 et al,

    Please be careful. The DHS may come after you and others with flatulence on the charge of aiding and abetting in bio-chemical terror…;)

  66. I think the majority of men would ceteris paribus take classy over trashy any day of the week.

    For one, please, for the love of Chupacabra, don’t presume to speak for all men. For two, a lot of men realize that expecting human beings to not do things that come naturally to human beings for the sake of appearances is being an asshat. Which brings me to three: why would you personally care if a woman farts around you, dude? Your head is so far up your own ass, you wouldn’t be able to smell it anyway.

  67. “real women don’t digest food, they absorb it.”

    But that’s not true! “Real” women don’t eat!

  68. real women subsist on thoughts of rainbows, babies, wedding dresses, cleaning products and endlessly slaving after their man.

  69. real women subsist on thoughts of rainbows, babies, wedding dresses, cleaning products and endlessly slaving after their man.

    And flours. Don’t forget the flours. 😉

  70. # Misspelled says:
    July 7th, 2008 at 12:10 pm – Edit

    Fantompowa, you need to get off the farting thing, seriously. It’s just making you look completely unbalanced.

    Heh, I mentioned it one time, and the thread just decided to keep riffing off the one comment – so if anything you should tell your ‘unbalanced’ compatriots to drop the subject.

    roses says:
    July 7th, 2008 at 3:34 pm – Edit

    And all women fart, just some have the manners to leave the room first or hold it in.

    Question for ya, are men supposed to hold it in or leave the room too, or is that just the ladies?

    I do, politeness goes both ways.

    J.Goff says:
    July 7th, 2008 at 5:28 pm – Edit

    I think the majority of men would ceteris paribus take classy over trashy any day of the week.

    For one, please, for the love of Chupacabra, don’t presume to speak for all men. For two, a lot of men realize that expecting human beings to not do things that come naturally to human beings for the sake of appearances is being an asshat. Which brings me to three: why would you personally care if a woman farts around you, dude? Your head is so far up your own ass, you wouldn’t be able to smell it anyway.

    Firstly, I never did speak for all men everywhere. I said the “I think” and ‘majority’ not “I know” and ‘all’. Not all guys appreciate class, plenty are probably with chicks who don’t tip, pick their noses, or talk about the monster dump they took this morning. Hey man, whatever floats your boat.

    Secondly, I agree politeness isn’t natural, neither is showering or reading, but I need women who can do those things too. It may be sublime – but it’s cultivated.

    Thirdly, why do you care that I care, considering it has no impact on you whatsoever?

    # belledame222 says:
    July 7th, 2008 at 3:57 pm – Edit

    I’m not sure how you got the impression I have any use for marriage or women who aren’t bi, let alone repressing gays. You could try actually reading posts before going into pigeonhole-and-squawk mode.

    And all women fart, just some have the manners to leave the room first or hold it in. I’m a lot pickier than most men, but I think the majority of men would ceteris paribus take classy over trashy any day of the week.

    Dude. pigeonhole and squawk now, AND farting. Noisy Woman Is Rude Woman. 🙁

    And, no, actually I didn’t accuse you of repressing anyone, and I don’t really give a shit what you do or don’t have any use for;

    Well, clearly you do, otherwise you – just like J.Goff – wouldn’t be talking.

    I’m just mocking you for being a pompous dickhead. Sorry for the confusion, really.

    but, you know, you get on with your “picky” self, I mean, you know, I’m sure you’ve earned it, what with the Latin and shit.

    Heh, well I may be an asshole, but at least I’m not a strong independent woman who curiously has a spaz attack when someone uses junior high vocabulary.

  71. Heh, I mentioned it one time, and the thread just decided to keep riffing off the one comment – so if anything you should tell your ‘unbalanced’ compatriots to drop the subject.

    No, ’cause, see, I can forgive others’ fascination with it, and their urge to “riff off” it, because the opinion that nice girls don’t fart — well, it’s a bit hard to pin down, to be honest, but as a start I’d say that it’s really more the kind of thing you shouldn’t ever “mention” at all, and then if by some cosmic accident you do mention it by mistake, you’re better off immediately disowning it and never bringing it up again, rather than defending and elaborating on it, as if there had been anything legitimate to it in the first place, let alone anything worth going to that sort of trouble for… so, all things considered, I too felt the need to sort of poke it with a stick and see what happened. But now I’m bored and would really like to be able to crush it with a brick and then go play inside for a while.

  72. Wow, look, more of the same old MRA flavor trope about non-American women, class, and “i’m NEVER getting married” stuff. Even a bit about how no, really, relationships aren’t really, really equal…

    And the “leading” thing? Psh. Almost…biblical, really.

  73. Fantompowa: you seem to be confusing “was really asking for -more- details of your requirements in ze wimminz” with “hey, here’s some sexist dickhead making an ass of himself on a public thread in a feminist blog I happen to read, -pokes it-”

    p.s. can you play “Melancholy Baby?” because, I have to tell you, if not, I can’t -possibly- marry you.

  74. Thirdly, why do you care that I care, considering it has no impact on you whatsoever?

    Oh, trust me, I don’t care that you care. I just wished to point out the pure talent one must possess to be able to type while having one’s cranium so far ensconced in one’s rectal cavity. You are truly a marvel. Though, I will admit that I was questioning why you have such a problem with ass fumes, given your current state.

  75. Misspelled says:
    July 7th, 2008 at 8:31 pm – Edit

    Heh, I mentioned it one time, and the thread just decided to keep riffing off the one comment – so if anything you should tell your ‘unbalanced’ compatriots to drop the subject.

    No, ’cause, see, I can forgive others’ fascination with it, and their urge to “riff off” it, because the opinion that nice girls don’t fart —

    I said classy – not nice.
    I’m sure Courtney Love and Paris Hilton are pretty nice people.

    well, it’s a bit hard to pin down, to be honest, but as a start I’d say that it’s really more the kind of thing you shouldn’t ever “mention” at all, and then if by some cosmic accident you do mention it by mistake, you’re better off immediately disowning it and never bringing it up again, rather than defending and elaborating on it, as if there had been anything legitimate to it in the first place, let alone anything worth going to that sort of trouble for… so, all things considered, I too felt the need to sort of poke it with a stick and see what happened.

    I guess I could apologize for expressing a simple preference or being less than PC, but there’s plenty of things I’d rather do first, like y’know nailing my penis to a burning building.

    But now I’m bored and would really like to be able to crush it with a brick and then go play inside for a while.

    Yes, please go inside and play (with your many cats, presumably) and don’t come back.

    RenegadeEvolution says:
    July 7th, 2008 at 8:41 pm – Edit

    Wow, look, more of the same old MRA flavor trope about non-American women, class, and “i’m NEVER getting married” stuff. Even a bit about how no, really, relationships aren’t really, really equal…

    Heh, I think American women (with the exception of Jack.Goff) are the bees knees. The only places that ties might be España. And I dislike the MRAs for the same reason I dislike feminists. Too much focus on group identity instead of people as individuals, 99% have some negativity or chip on their shoulder towards the opposite sex, the victim mentality, and waaaaaay too much complaining.

    And the “leading” thing? Psh. Almost…biblical, really.

    I’m a Deist. And I’ve never really understood people who criticize the Christian G-d’s view of how the male-female marriage dynamic should work as patriarchal/oppressive, and at the same time criticize men as childish or immature who avoid forming a marriage covenant with that same G-d.

    J.Goff says:
    July 7th, 2008 at 9:04 pm – Edit

    Thirdly, why do you care that I care, considering it has no impact on you whatsoever?

    Oh, trust me, I don’t care that you care.

    Which is, of course, why you’re still talking.

    belledame222 says:
    July 7th, 2008 at 8:57 pm – Edit

    p.s. can you play “Melancholy Baby?” because, I have to tell you, if not, I can’t -possibly- marry you.

    Oh I can, but marriage isn’t exactly on my bucket list. We had a pretty good run though, and at least we’ll always have Paris… *poot*

    Well, bout time to fire up the PS3, and run some pigs over.

  76. Which is, of course, why you’re still talking.

    Oh dear. No, I’m still talking because I can, not because I care. 😉

  77. Courtney Love and Paris Hilton

    I guess I could apologize for expressing a simple preference or being less than PC

    your many cats

    American women (with the exception of Jack.Goff)

    The only places that ties might be España.

    Too much focus on group identity instead of people as individuals, 99% have some negativity or chip on their shoulder towards the opposite sex, the victim mentality, and waaaaaay too much complaining.

    marriage isn’t exactly on my bucket list.

    This is truly a solemn occasion, a time for quiet attention and deep thought. Congratulations, sir, for you have at last become your own parody.

    I think it’s time and past for a banning, here.

  78. This has become hilarious, in a way, with the comment about the cats and the *poot* and all. Jack, you are not on Fantompowa’s list of *American women who are the bees knees.* Try to pick up the pieces.

    “And I’ve never really understood people who criticize the Christian G-d’s view of how the male-female marriage dynamic should work as patriarchal/oppressive, and at the same time criticize men as childish or immature who avoid forming a marriage covenant with that same G-d.”

    See, in this statement you make the mistake of conflating *feminists* with *readers of Dear Abby* or whatever hackneyed advice column / cliched media representation of women you got that from.

  79. Jack, you are not on Fantompowa’s list of *American women who are the bees knees.* Try to pick up the pieces.

    Hehe.

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