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Esmin Green

If this story doesn’t disgust you, I don’t know what will:

It was a nightmare captured on surveillance video. A woman who had waited nearly 24 hours to be seen in a Brooklyn public hospital collapsed, fell face-down on the floor, convulsed and for nearly an hour — while several hospital staff members looked at her and one staff member even prodded her with her foot — received no aid. At some point during that time, she died.

The New York Civil Liberties Union has been sounding the alarm about New York City hospitals for some time now, calling the emergency room and inpatient units at Kings County Hospital “a chamber of filth, decay, indifference and danger.” It’s disgusting that someone had to die before the city bothered doing anything about it.

And this is just the one that we know about because the video was released on YouTube. The callous disregard that the hospital employees showed to Esmin Green is not possibly a one-time occurrence. Ms. Green was a poor, mentally ill woman of color. She apparently didn’t matter one bit to the employees at the hospital who were supposed to be giving her care. I would bet everything I own that she is not the first “unimportant” patient to receive that kind of treatment — she is just the first to have her death broadcast on YouTube, and so she is the first that the city cannot turn a blind eye towards.

And via Panopticon in the comments:

A state agency, the New York State Mental Hygiene Legal Service, filed a lawsuit a year ago, calling the psychiatric center “a chamber of filth, decay, indifference and danger.”

Patients, the suit said, “are subjected to overcrowded and squalid conditions often accompanied by physical abuse and unnecessary and punitive injections of mind-altering drugs.”

“From the moment a person steps through the doors,” it added, “she is stripped of her freedom and dignity and literally forced to fight for the essentials of life.”

The suit was especially critical of the hospital’s emergency ward, saying it is so poorly staffed that patients are often marooned there for days while they wait to be evaluated.

Sometimes, the unit runs out of chairs, according to the lawsuit, forcing people to wait on foam mats or on the waiting room floor. The suit also claims that bathrooms are filthy and filled with flies, and that patients who complain too loudly are sometimes handcuffed, beaten or injected with psychotropic drugs.

In case this doesn’t make it clear, mental health (and health care in general) is a feminist issue. This should appall and enrage all of us.

And no, it’s not just a New York City thing. A similar incident happened in LA about a year ago; and it’s only the most shocking horror stories that get reported. Usually, the people who are neglected are so low on the social totem pole that their deaths are just swept under the rug — another crazy colored lady? Nothing to see here.

We’ve had a lot of conversations at Feministe lately about mental illness, disability, the words we use, and how all of that intersects with feminism. Esmin Green and Edith Rodriguez died in part because they were poor women of color without very much influence, access or power. They died because they sought help in a system that is over-burdened to the breaking point — a system that enables the people within it to make cruel choices and to perpetuate racist, sexist and ableist hierarchies in their jobs. Esmin Green wasn’t just a woman; she was a woman of color who was mentally ill. She was “crazy,” she was poor, and she didn’t appear to be particularly powerful, so she was left to die on the floor. We are a truly sick society when we allow these abuses to continue.


56 thoughts on Esmin Green

  1. But hey, psychiatric care is expensive! She’s just some crazy poor woman that will just add to our bottom line…

    Hey! She could be dangerous to our other patients! Violent, perhaps disease ridden…

  2. Thanks for posting about this Jill.

    This was definitely not an isolated incident – CNN has more on the previous trouble the hospital has been in.

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/01/hospital.death.ap/index.html?iref=newssearch

    “From the moment a person steps through the doors,” it added, “she is stripped of her freedom and dignity and literally forced to fight for the essentials of life.”

    The suit was especially critical of the hospital’s emergency ward, saying it is so poorly staffed that patients are often marooned there for days while they wait to be evaluated.
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    Sometimes, the unit runs out of chairs, according to the lawsuit, forcing people to wait on foam mats or on the waiting room floor. The suit also claims that bathrooms are filthy and filled with flies, and that patients who complain too loudly are sometimes handcuffed, beaten or injected with psychotropic drugs.

    There are a lot of things about this that are heartbreaking, but I CANNOT get over the fact that she was involuntarily committed.

    Why the HELL are people being locked up and stripped of their agency if they are not receiving actual competent treatment?

    From people I’ve talked to who have been involuntarily committed, while this situation might be extreme, the abuse and neglect ARE NOT exclusive to this hospital. Some hospitals are great, yeah but a lot are just plain abusive and NO ONE CARES.

  3. It isn’t just NYC. A friend of a friend was staying with us at our shul one Shabbos and she came down with the worst stomach pains. By Shabbos afternoon it was clear it wasn’t just an upset stomach and the presentation (as well as age and demographics) were perfectly consistent with a gall bladder problem that needed immediate attention. We took her to the emergency room, but they never did get around to seeing her. Eventually it was obvious (fortunately) that it wasn’t her gall bladder and she spent the night elsewhere.

    I don’t quite blame the hospital. The ER was overwhelmed … essentially with injured kids, other people in her state (could be a stomach flu, could be something worse), etc. The sad thing is that if the ER just had one or two additional nurses (plus a few extra beds in case they needed to admit people), things wouldn’t have been so bad.

    The kids who bumped their heads who were bleeding quite a bit (as kids’ head bumps sometimes do) could have been cleared in no time. A simple exam and an X-ray could have sorted between the truly ill and those who were ok, in spite of horrendous symptoms.

    It just amazed me how just a few more resources would have made such a difference.

  4. God, this is just awful. I cannot believe that medical staff would behave in such a way.

    But you know what else, as an aside, I find it quite sad that this post gets all of 4 comments when the previous one (on a robot movie) got 18. Now fair enough, maybe all you can say is “god, this is just awful” because there is not much else to say, but just do it people!

  5. jill, thank you for posting this. it’s really important, but i spent the last few days just staring at my screen unable to write.

    all the times that i have spent hospitalized for mental health issues, i was always the most frightened that i might be forgotten about. i never imagined this…

  6. While I was working on my MA we all had to do a 700 hour practicum somewhere. Two of my fellow students in my supervision group were at Elgin Mental Hospital on the NGRI Unit (Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity). One of them had such a hard time dealing with it due to the way the patients were treated by doctors and other staff. One women had stabbed someone and in moments when she was lucid she would ask staff if she had killed him (she didn’t). my friend reported that some staff would be like “yeah he died” and the women would torture herself with that knowledge when IT WASN’T EVEN TRUE. Drs. there often would just warehouse people and forge notes or would encourage the internts to fudge notes so that people would be able to be moved to a different unit to show that there were “improvements” in there condition. Any programs that seemed to work were often shut down due to being ‘unnecessary.” It’s truly depressing how some places just warehouse the mentally ill to collect the money.

  7. To be admitted involuntarily, only to be left to die….there are no words. One thing I can’t wrap my mind around is how the staff tried to cover up their horrendous behavior by altering the paperwork. Don’t they know there are cameras in the hospital? Knowing their actions are being recorded should have motivated them to act more quickly, even if human decency was too much for them to muster.

  8. It saddens me that people are so selfish and won’t step in to help another person who may have fallen, fainted or passed out (or hit by a car). There have been more similar stories like this a few weeks ago about the lack of good Samaritans.

  9. “But you know what else, as an aside, I find it quite sad that this post gets all of 4 comments when the previous one (on a robot movie) got 18. Now fair enough, maybe all you can say is “god, this is just awful” because there is not much else to say, but just do it people!”

    katharine, I thought the same thing :(.

  10. I don’t quite blame the hospital. The ER was overwhelmed … essentially with injured kids, other people in her state (could be a stomach flu, could be something worse), etc. The sad thing is that if the ER just had one or two additional nurses (plus a few extra beds in case they needed to admit people), things wouldn’t have been so bad.

    This isn’t a case of hospitals being simply being understaffed though. Esmin Green was STEPPED OVER while she was LYING ON THE FLOOR.

    This isn’t a case of not having enough resources. This is about who those resources are allocated to.

  11. This reminds me of what happened in L.A. and it wasn’t an isolated incident there either.

    And the hospitals who dump patients who are mentally ill or medically ill including a paraplegic with a colostomy bag literally in the street on or near skid row and they crawl to the sidewalk. Sometimes they just push the gurnies in the L.A. Mission. The city attorney started filing charges against the hospitals that did this but it’s a misdemeanor offense.

  12. The mentally ill are in a very dire situation because they cannot advocate for themselves, because they are incapable of it, because they are crazy. WHo will advocate for them? Usually only their families, if they have them. For middle aged mentally ill people, it is especially harsh, as their parents are often deceased and there is no one else.

    Disability and social security benefits only allow for two weeks of mental illness care per lifetime. Two weeks. It is completely a joke.

    Whose fault is it? Reagan and every other fucking conservative who considers it a victory to underfund social services and health care for the destitute. Everyone who is against universal healthcare.

    And every American should care and should want mental health services for all, because having a lot of mentally ill people out on the streets isn’t good for anyone. If you lack the compassion to care about the mentally ill among us, your selfishness should dictate that you don’t want mentally ill people mixing freely with the public either. I know three mentally ill people, and each of them has at one time or another only barely missed murdering innocent people because, well, they were lucky and only injured them. In all cases the mentally ill people were delusional and thought they were attacking “Satan”.

    The reason we PAY taxes is to obtain social services. They are not “handouts” to the lazy! They are vital services, VITAL!!

  13. The awful thing is that psychiatric hospitals have always been horrifying places most of the time, no matter what good will got them built. The only people who ever got good care are the wealthy in small private clinic–because they have both the money and the power to make the relatives feared. Even then, that’s not always the case, since large numbers of people have been committed involuntarily over time to such places when relatives want to possess something.

    The mentally ill appeals to the worst of the human spirit so much of the time. They don’t get drugs or any kind of care that would help, and many of those who get them, are coerced to get them to shut them up and out of society. I think it’s that people think that once your head is broken, nothing you say is of import anymores, it’s all random delusion, including the value of their person. No cries of pain, or distress, No explanation of why I’m here, No concern for bodily needs…If the mind’s a phantasm, so is their spirit and their person.

  14. “But you know what else, as an aside, I find it quite sad that this post gets all of 4 comments when the previous one (on a robot movie) got 18. Now fair enough, maybe all you can say is “god, this is just awful” because there is not much else to say, but just do it people!”

    Katherine, when I posted about this yesterday one of the things that angered me most was the silence in feminist blogospehre about this incident. It seems that when violence happens to women of color it is hardly posted or it is ignored in the comments section. This is why WOC are bowing out of the feminist movement. It is becoming increasingly clear that our bodies do not matter, and it enrages more than I have words to express. When I looked around blogs that were written by black women there were a few that had entries about this incident. Acts of violence that are perpetrated against us are always slow to be posted in so-called mainstream blogs. When the daily kos did that nasty picture of Michelle Obama being lynched it took over a week to appear at feministing, yet it was all over blogs written by black women…what kind of message do you suppose that sends out to us?

  15. Disability and social security benefits only allow for two weeks of mental illness care per lifetime. Two weeks. It is completely a joke.

    Whose fault is it? Reagan and every other fucking conservative who considers it a victory to underfund social services and health care for the destitute. Everyone who is against universal healthcare.

    This is why I get very angry when people rail against homeless people. Not all homeless people are mentally ill, but a lot are and often that is why they are homeless and can’t just “get a job”.

    If you lack the compassion to care about the mentally ill among us, your selfishness should dictate that you don’t want mentally ill people mixing freely with the public either. I know three mentally ill people, and each of them has at one time or another only barely missed murdering innocent people

    I agree with a lot of your comment, but please remember that there are a lot of different ways to be “mentally ill”, and that being mentally ill does not in and of itself mean that you should not mix freely with the public. I suspect that you know that already, but the language really is important because there are a ton of stigmas associated with mental illness.

  16. I’m glad I got to read this and actually have the issue explained. They showed parts of the video during our local newscast last night but the actual information was sincerely lacking.

  17. Wow, this is very outrageous! Story after story and I am so tired of reading stuff like this. Today my brother and I were talking about feeling unseen. I know many people who often say they don’t feel seen…women, working class, people of color. Partially I know why I feel this way as a Native American women. Then I feel not seen because I love the Earth and Animals sometimes more than people because it is more real to me than this materialistic, capitalistic and destructive world we have created. Anyway, he also probably does not feel seen for being a working class hero that he is.

    Ultimately this woman who we consider “mentally ill” is a reflection of us and our society. It is a reflection of us because of our inability to address our societal illness.

  18. This saddens but does not surprise me. I worked for a homeless shelter for a year in New Mexico. The lack of services available to either the mentally ill or those with substance abuse problems was shocking. On one of my first days as a supervisor, I had to evict a woman whose mental illness was causing her to act in ways that made her a danger to herself and others. She looked at me and said, “Well where am I supposed to go?” And I had no answer. I will never forget that day; it was one of my worst. There are just no services.

    I know most nurses in hospitals do their best, but so often the homeless are treated like nuisances, not like human beings deserving of respect. We always had to be careful when the local hospital would call us to try to place a patient with us; frequently the patient was in no condition to be in a shelter – requiring IVs or round-the-clock attention that we simply couldn’t give. But the hospital’s social workers were required to find SOMEwhere to put them, since legally they couldn’t just kick them out on the street in that condition. So they’d try to minimize how serious the patient’s condition was, because once the shelter agreed to take him/her in, it became our problem, not theirs.

  19. Betsy, when I just volunteered for the crisis line at a women’s shelter and turning people away was heart breaking!

    I am so tired of who defines someone as having a “mental illness,” or “dis-ease.” I just wanted to add that I feel that it is the society that is demeaning and degrading for the person and your soul. It is the society that dishonors and downsizes people.

    There are a lack of services for so many needs. The cost even to treat alcoholics was expensive! It is for the rich and not working/middle people. This made me so angry when we wanted to send my brother to a retreat place to help him heal. The cost was thousands of dollars, something my family could not pay. I was more angry at the upper classes than I had been before. It is a good thing my brother has been sober for 4 years and actively involved in AA helping others and doing good work.

    Because all of this mental illness stuff hits home for me I am very passionate about living a life where I define no one has having mental illness. Its our society and we can change that by stepping into living more authentically and honoring everyones gifts and talents despite “mental illness.”

    I hold this womyn up to the light!

  20. I have problems with the term “mental illness” too. I’m not sure what else to use though.

  21. This isn’t a case of hospitals being simply being understaffed though. – Panopticon

    Of course there was major neglegence here. But I would imagine that such things would be far less likely if there were more resources available. Nothing brings out callousness like limitted resources. People will say (at least subconciously) “why ‘waste’ resources on her?”. It’s an inexcusible attitude, but it does occur … and when more resources are available, it doesn’t rear its ugly head even if the ugly prejudice still lurks beneath.

  22. DAS,

    It’s because actually treating mental illnesses are

    a) Chronic…once you have a patient, you sorta have one for life–a few really are episodic, but most aren’t.

    b)expensive The meth drugs like Ritalin and dexedrine and the like are the cheapest, and they are not THAT cheap. They are also drugs that in an emergency, people can go without. Other drugs, many of them without generic versions, are not trivial drains on potential hospitals/insurance companies, and people MUST take them in order to function.

    c)Lastly, mental health care is also expensive in terms of “giving a shit” on the part of the health care worker. It takes huge gobs of both empathy and expertise in order to be a mental health care worker that handles a wide range of illnesses. Psychologists and psychiatrists who have what it takes to be patient with thier patients, and listen, and be responsive to the potential of improving thier patient’s condition…well, they are as common as hen’s teeth in terms of the scale of the US health care system. They are also expensive salaries that really can’t be cut if you have to have effectiveness in your operation for some reason.

  23. In order to press the last point…

    A cardiologist can concentrate on a heart, and it’s rate, and all the data that goes along with heart function. Most symptoms of problems are relatively easy to ask and easy to interpret answers.

    A surgeon can look at you as a piece of meat. No talking back, except before the procedure, of course. Most surgical decisions are technical, with defensible decisions made all the way through the procedure.

    A psychologist, or psychiatrist is put in the position, often, of having to debug a *running program* (forgive the stretched metaphor). So much of what they do is mediated by language, or nothing at all. Phsycial symptoms might actually be dangerous to the therapist! That means lots of guesswork, in an area in which every data point is assertively unique, with penalties for bad guesswork. This is a tremendous amount of stress, and doing it for a long time is an achievement.

    So read this article
    http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19970701-000045.html

    and hug your mental therapist today! Bonus points for lawyers, they need love too, especially you know who!

  24. I normally wouldn’t comment because there’s nothing I can really add, but since there has been a call for comments I will.

    I must say it does remind me of a case a while ago where a woman ended up giving birth in a bathroom because of negligent staff/insuficient rescources.
    These things are horrible and unexcusable.

  25. Betsy, when I just volunteered for the crisis line at a women’s shelter and turning people away was heart breaking!

    I am so tired of who defines someone as having a “mental illness,” or “dis-ease.”

    Cecilia, having to deny people shelter or evict them from it is a terrible thing. The only thing I could tell myself was that at least I was trying to provide it to as many as we could.

    Ironically, the term “mental illness” was coined in part to decrease the stigma – it was supposed to suggest that mental illness was no more something to be ashamed of (or to judge people for) than the flu or heart disease. However, the stigma that we attach to it is too tenacious for any mere name change to erase.

  26. The next smug asshole I see who responds to arguments for universal health care with “we already have it, poor people can just go to the emergency room” had better be wearing a cup, because I am going to show him this and I am going to kick him in the balls. Not necessarily in that order.

  27. “we already have it, poor people can just go to the emergency room” had better be wearing a cup, because I am going to show him this and I am going to kick him in the balls. Not necessarily in that order.

    I was just like to point out that we have socialized health care in Canada and yet our homeless are largely made up of people living with mental illness. It seems our hospitals have a treat and release policy and it is clear that this leads to terrible results. The homeless are considered the underclass for a reason.

  28. Many people living with mental illness are very capable of functioning in the community if they have the opportunity for affordable housing with supports like case management, medication management, etc. It is not just a matter of a “treat and release” problem; there are many options on the continuum between the extremes of homeless / untreated and permanently hospitalized / warehoused.

    If you lack the compassion to care about the mentally ill among us, your selfishness should dictate that you don’t want mentally ill people mixing freely with the public either. I know three mentally ill people, and each of them has at one time or another only barely missed murdering innocent people because, well, they were lucky and only injured them.

    A statement like this is so ignorant, bigoted and offensive I can’t believe it’s on this blog. You know three individuals who apparently suffer from paranoid schizophrenia (most of whom are NOT dangerous, let alone murderous, incidentally, particularly when taking medication), so “the mentally ill” should not mix freely with “the public.” There are a lot of kinds of people I don’t like mixing freely with, but give me 100 individuals with mental illness over a bigoted asshole any fucking day of the week.

  29. @Charity…you know responses like yours are part of what makes commenting on feministe ridiculous occasionally…you take someones thoughts completely out of context and then run off on your own personal crusade. Did you even bother to read the entirety of her response, or were you just looking for trigger words so that you could go off? People aren’t perfect, but it was clear to me that she was speaking as an ally, and advocating for better health care. Don’t stomp on the hand that is trying to help simply because a turn of phrase occurred you didn’t like. These kinds of responses silence people and make them not want to get involved in the struggle for change. Sure offer a correction on language but don’t tell me that you cannot find a way to do it constructively.

  30. This makes me wonder what homelessness is like in NZ. To an extent, no one “needs” to be homeless in NZ. We have a few guys in our city who our council tried to force to live in government housing and they wouldn’t. I know that it’s most common in Auckland (our biggest city) where you get a lot of young kids who come from abusive households and feel safer living on the streets and often prostituting themselves than going back home.

    The services are there if you need them but from my experience of getting an unemployment benefit as a young, educated white woman who’d been unfairly dismissed and they were SUCH arseholes to deal with, I can see how bloody hard it would be to ask for help. Especially when you’re brought up to distrust authority and have plenty of experience with the cops to back that up – who often are trying to help get kids of the streets but in effect are complete arseholes to kids who’ve never been able to trust adults in their lives.

    As for mental health, we are severely lacking. I think we have one hospital in NZ? Basically after a bunch of terrible shit went down we went ahead and closed most of the institutions, which left severely mentally ill people with no where to go. We’ve got a halfway house in one suburb where a lot of them spend most of their time drinking, and a bunch of people got dumped in public housing in the suburb where I work so we get people wandering into our shop, adults with the mental age of children.

    Truly, they seem happy enough (there’re two who come in quite regularly, plus a bunch of teenagers who get brought in by their caregivers – we’re a vet/pet store so we get lots of visitors), but with the adults I really wonder what they’d do if they needed help.

    And one of my co-workers just disgusts me. She seems to have no empathy at all. This one very simply guy always comes and comments on how cute the kittens are and asks if the dog biscuits we sell loosely are for dogs, things like that. She is polite but terse with him and gets really tense and pissed-off looking. She describes him as “creepy”. She also hates children, is patronising about gay men (aren’t they CUTE!) and just doesn’t know what to make of the butch lesbian who is our head nurse at one of our other clinics, is irritated by people with accents, comes across patronising when serving customers (which is really annoying as she’s only 19), is passive-aggressive and lazy, and never listens to advice.

    OK, that was a terribly long ramble, I’m just going to post it.

    More pertinently, I find stories like this and even the idea of how fucked the US health system is SO BAD as to be unbelievable 🙁

  31. The abilty to have a concience and care about our fellowman is what makes us different from lower form of animals. God help this society for what we have become, so careles of heart and spirit that even the lower form of animals treat their kind better.

  32. The next smug asshole I see who responds to arguments for universal health care with “we already have it, poor people can just go to the emergency room”

    Because randomly showing up in an emergency room is totally the same thing as having a stable doctor who knows your history with illnesses and medications and who you can go to if your worried about something to prevent it from becoming an emergency!

    Once you get into a situation where something is an emergency–and generally people who don’t have enough money do wait until that point–you only have so much time to act before very bad things happen. It’s a stressful situation; having prevention would reduce the stress load on all involved and probably save some lives.

    Throw in a second kick for me, while you’re at it. 😉

  33. @Renee, you don’t get to police my comments…sorry. I have a right to be offended by what was written, which was bigoted, actually – there’s no bones about it. Also – “personal crusade”? Really? Maybe you’re still stinging from the response you got to “overmedicated Prozac twits” in your other post, but that wasn’t me arguing with you in that thread, ‘kay? So no, it’s not a “personal crusade.” Bigotry is bigotry.

    What makes it hard to comment at Feministe, actually, is seeing how it’s deteriorated these last couple of weeks. Interesting to consider what that correlates with.

  34. What makes it hard to comment at Feministe, actually, is seeing how it’s deteriorated these last couple of weeks. Interesting to consider what that correlates with.

    Yeah a break in the group think that you love to practice so much…seriously read the whole comment it was clear that she was speaking as an ally. I am not trying to silence your precious voice, I am simply pointing out that the tone of your comment like so many that I have read is all the same…dismiss intent in favor of pushing an agenda.

  35. Also, how did i take that comment “completely out of context?” This was the opening line:

    The mentally ill are in a very dire situation because they cannot advocate for themselves, because they are incapable of it, because they are crazy.

    Um, didn’t we just spend a lot of time on how this is a really messed-up and harmful attitude? Oh, right, but then I must be taking what follows out of context. So, what followed again? Oh yes:

    And every American should care and should want mental health services for all, because having a lot of mentally ill people out on the streets isn’t good for anyone. If you lack the compassion to care about the mentally ill among us, your selfishness should dictate that you don’t want mentally ill people mixing freely with the public either. I know three mentally ill people, and each of them has at one time or another only barely missed murdering innocent people because, well, they were lucky and only injured them. In all cases the mentally ill people were delusional and thought they were attacking “Satan”.

    Mentally ill people! Out on the streets! Even if we were just talking about people with schizophrenia, which it sounds as though the commenter was, they can and do live in the community, outside a hospital. God forbid anyone try to convey such a thing! I have worked in a variety of mental health settings including forensic hospitals, inpatient psychiatric hospitals, and outpatient settings. Believe me when I tell you the vast majority of people with even severe mental illness can live in the community. Why is pointing that out a “personal crusade”? I think it’s quite relevant to this blog, actually.

  36. You know, Charity, you aren’t all that different from squashed. Except that he can’t write english, and you can’t read english.

    Yeah, KMTBerry is not an english teacher and her writing reflects that, but then not everyone has a perfect command of language, especially when jotting down a quick point on a blog. There is alot of ambiguity in her post, especially since she seems to be using two definitions of “mentally ill” in the post. One that is used to talk about people who suffer from mental illnesses, and the other is used to talk about people who are having a psychiatric crisis. That makes for quite a bit of wondering where’s she’s coming from. However, I do think she is talking about the mentally ill as having a medical crisis in the problematic paragraph, as a result of not being able to get outpatient care or suitable shelter at need. She *does* seem to want an integration of the mentally ill into regular society…

    Anywayz, you just might wanna let up on this one, because it’s reasonably clear that you aren’t being all that fair. Not that I think you are a fair person, since I don’t see you post much if it’s not in a wierd combo concern/purity trolling. Judging from the tone at least, I’m pretty sure KMTBerry meant well, and that she did not deserve being called “a bigoted asshole”.

  37. The mentally ill are in a very dire situation because they cannot advocate for themselves, because they are incapable of it, because they are crazy.

    In Canada at least a very high percentage of the homeless are suffering from sort of mental health issue. They are treated and as soon as they are stabilized they are released. This is a problem because as soon as they go off of their medication they once again become unstable and the pattern of poverty and homelessness begins again. They fall through the system simply because very few will advocate on their behalf. This is a sign of a lack of social cohesion and it has dire effects for those that are forced to live on the streets. This I believe is that point that she was trying to get across. Does this mean that all people suffering from a mental illness are homeless no… but we should take the time to acknowledge that mental illness effects people differently.

    BTW…I am more than aware that I am not always correct, my point is that sometimes giving people the benefit of the doubt can lead to more constructive change than always being on the attack. I agree with the majority of what you had to say, it was simply the manner. I am a big believer in intent, until someone gives me an obvious reason to believe otherwise.

  38. I am a crisis line worker, and I talk to people with chronic mental illness every day. The thought of one of our clients being left to die after seeking help makes me sick. This is a travesty.
    It is quite possible for people with even the worst kinds of mental health problems to get stabilized and live in the community with support, even on fixed incomes. It can be very very hard to accomplish, but I know many cases where it HAS happened, right here it America under our current awful system. So there’s that small comfort it the meantime, while we work for a better system…

  39. Terrifying… if this isn’t a perfect and nightmarish example of the negative side of privatized healthcare I don’t know what is.

  40. of course shah8 gets on board, whom multiple commenters have identified as paternalistic, condescending, sexist, and talking past just about everyone…nice *ally* you’ve got there. While on the subject of allies, i also can’t even begin to address the hypocrisy of telling someone *can’t you see person X is an ally?? I can tell, from picking out some of the positions they seem to hold and points they seem to be making. Just ignore that bigoted language or rhetoric they’re using, ignore those OTHER points in which they actively marginalize an already-marginalized group, and take it on faith…they are an ally!* Wow.

    What happened to Esmin Green is a tragedy and the issue of non-mentally ill people demonizing, criminalizing, othering, and otherwise stigmatizing the mentally ill is FRONT AND CENTER in what happened to her.

  41. in response to shah8….you have a lot of nerve. Esmin Green is a loved one of mine and she wasnt just some crazy lady. Whether she was psychiatric patient or in a regular emergency room no one deserves to be neglected like that. That hospital Kings County will pay for their negligence. You know people always have a lot of negative bull**** to say until something bad happens to their family members or someone they know.

  42. Just ignore that bigoted language or rhetoric they’re using, ignore those OTHER points in which they actively marginalize an already-marginalized group, and take it on faith…they are an ally!* Wow.

    Again no one said to ignore it. When you first started to speak out about issues that disturbed you but you were not familiar with were you able to articulate your position without falling prey to language that was reductive? I doubt it. It takes time for people to learn but if the intent is to help jumping down their throat the minute they try in no way encourages them to grow as a person. Point out what they may have said that is incorrect, even provide a few links for them to follow but it is not necessary to go for the jugular. Save your anger for those bigots that truly deserve and are not even trying to advance their thinking.

    What happened to Esmin Green is a tragedy and the issue of non-mentally ill people demonizing, criminalizing, othering, and otherwise stigmatizing the mentally ill is FRONT AND CENTER in what happened to her

    BTW thought I should point out to you that a good deal of what happened to Esmin had to do with her race and her gender a little thing that alot of people on this thread have avoided discussing. Of course we shouldn’t deal with intersections though should we?

  43. People who appear to be allies can still be reinforcing the system that causes the problem in the first place. Didn’t the white feminist blogosphere learn that about the liberal d00dz this election cycle?

    I don’t think there was any particular harmful intent in the comment but it was still Othering. We don’t want These People out on the street do we? We would be better off if These People weren’t mixing with the public. These People can’t advocate for themselves, you know…

    That’s all I want to comment on tho’, I am not endorsing or condemning any one person’s comments in this thread. I do think her race is being ignored, as well as her class (of course these things all play into each other). People don’t see a poor black woman as trustworthy in the first place! How do you THINK it’s going to play out when you add mental illness to the mix? That’s how we get a person convulsing on the floor and the staff figuring “oh just let her work it out, maybe she’ll go away? she’s just trying to get attention, best not give any to her” and so forth.

    Consider this — the easiest solution the average person can think of for the problem of mental disability in society is to create a social service to keep all these people sheltered fed and and given long term health care … guess what, folks? That’s called “institutionalization.”

    You REALLY have to peel back the layers of your eyelids, and learn to think really hard about these things… because whatever your thoughts are on the matter, they’re almost guaranteed to be more of a problem than an aid. Even if you have experience in the area. Hell, especially if you do.

    UHC is not the solution to this problem. Homeless shelters are not the solution to this problem. Better funded social care is not the solution to this problem. They’re in the wrong paradigm, totally wrong, because they’re still thinking of the poor, minority, mentally ill as a “problem” to be “managed”… as a bug in a computer program, to borrow the metaphor. You’re still coming at things from the POV of a person in power trying to get the disadvantaged to stop making things all uncomfortable and such. Give the infant a binkie and it’ll stop wailing. You aren’t thinking in such malicious terms, but neither is the lazy parent…

  44. I feel the need to emphasize that I’m not really commenting against anyone here. The one comment (#14 iirc) I referenced specifically and the rest is honestly just riffing. I’ve been reading Renee now for a couple months and was delighted to see her here… and I’ve really appreciated the comments of others. I don’t want this to come across as an affront to any specific person(s).

  45. I’m with Amandaw.

    It is impossible to disagree that race played a role. But it’s a question of labels.

    There’s a joke by comedian Greg Giraldo (from memory, don’t sue me):

    “Before Katrina, I wasn’t really aware of the extent of poverty in this country. Because so often, poor people look just like black people. So they’re easy to miss.”

    I’ll add: reclassify those poor black people as mental health patients, and you have just made an entire social problem disappear.

    http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2008/07/esmin_green.html

  46. This is a result of a culture nurtured by years of union protecting lazy, stupid and idifferent members and the management that does not care about anything but their own cushy jobs (not even bottom line). Go to any other department of the same hospital, nay, any NYC “union” run hospital and see the same disregrad for patients, especially poorer patients, and lazy slow moving idiots providing “service”. No surprise. It is just a tip of the iceberg.

  47. After seeing the video for the first time on CNN, I couldn’t help it, I cried. How cold do you have to be to just walk away from another human being who is seriously in trouble? Would you even do that to a dog on the street? And this has happened how many times? I feel for this family and agree that anyone who knew something was wrong and could’ve helped this woman, but instead walked away, should be charged as criminals. She was someone’s mother, daughter, neighbor, and friend. Being ill doesn’t mean you don’t have value to someone or to the community. I feel very fortunate to have good physicians but they’re increasingly hard to find. I’ve come across some who either don’t care much and treat patients like products not people, or they’re very angry and combative and provide little help. These people, these criminals, should hope and pray that when THEIR time comes, and it will, when THEY need help, they don’t receive the same treatment(or lack thereof) that they gave to Miss Esmin.

  48. Ms. Green was admitted involuntarily for agitation, but if you look at the video, until her collapse she seems to be waiting fairly quietly. This suggests she was almost certainly given an antipsychotic when she arrived at the emergency room. Antipsychotics can be useful and necessary for severe mental illness, and if she really was schizophrenic (not a settled question– it’s a tricky and stigmatizing diagnosis, and one that’s more likely to be given to black people in emotional distress, such as Ms. Green, more quickly) they may have been the best course. But they’ve got a lot of dangerous side effects, such as… deep vein thrombosis (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/957182.stm). It looks to me like the “treatment” she was given, against her will, killed her.

  49. As I read this thread, I also found myself putting this woman’s suffering in my own context. I am a woman, I am white, and I have a sister with schizophrenia. In my perception: of the categories, I think being mentally ill is the most difficult and vulnerable. You would be surprised how many people would not want to be caught sneering at a woman or a black person on the subway — but a mentally ill person: why hold back? It’s not as if society takes care of them or even sees any need to help them. In terms of the majority of federal and state laws, if you are a family member of woman like Esmin Green, you have no right to help her. If she doesn’t want to take medication, she doesn’t have to. If she hasn’t gone to a medical doctor in twenty years, so be it. Yet strangely if she wanted to buy a handgun, it would be illegal because of her illness. She cannot be trusted with other people’s lives, but she can be with her own. How sick did Ms. Green probably have to become before anyone could legally interfere? The laws make it so that she literally had to be on the brink of death/danger to even be brought in involuntarily.

    I agree that the hospital in question was unconscionable and horrifying. Yet we also must look at the laws which allow a person with a brain disorder to go not just hours, but years, without any medical attention. Regardless of her sex or her race, if she had had cancer: would she have been treated the same?

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