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One of these things just doesn’t belong here…

A few recent headlines:

Iraqi guards kill female suicide bomber

Female suicide bomber in Iraq kills 15, wounds 40

Suicide bomber kills 7 policemen in northern Iraq

Can you guess the gender of the third suicide bomber?

I spent a while as an anti-sexual and partner violence educator, and one of my favorite exercises to practice with people was something like this one, created by Jackson Katz. Essentially, you begin by having the group read a typical “educational” passage about violence against women—the kind of thing you’d read in your average newspaper, or even in old-school rape crisis center type educational programming. Then, once you’ve let that sink in, you start breaking down the language of the article. What becomes clear, as you do this, is the fact that a lot of statements about how we think about gender and violence are made in the things we don’t explicitly state.  Most glaringly, the focus of such articles is almost exclusively on the victims of gender violence, who are explicitly stated to be primarily female.  The gender of perpetrators, however, is not mentioned.

According to the Department of Justice, 88% of violent crime in the U.S. is committed by men.  But as a society, we rarely talk about the prevalence of male violence, or how striking it is that gender, more than any other factor, is such a predictor of violent behavior.  And we virtually never really discuss why men are so much more likely to commit acts of violence than women are.  In my experience, if I manage to wrangle your average person into considering why this is the case, they’ll generally fall back on bogus pop science.  Something to the effect of, “Testosterone makes them do it!”

In other words, “I have based a large part of my identity and sense of self-worth on my conformity to conventional gender roles.  The suggestion that gender roles as they are constructed in a patriarchal culture is somehow flawed is deeply threatening to me.  Therefore, I will attempt to use essentializing pseudo-science to convince you that feminist change is completely impossible, so you will stop saying these unsettling things that make me uncomfortable and suggest that by reinforcing traditional gender roles, I have unintentionally aided in the creation of great suffering.”

Denial.  Not just river.

Anyway, believers in testosterone zombies aside, anyone paying attention can tell you that men are more likely to be violent largely because their violence is condoned and even encouraged as a normal aspect of male identity.  The fact that, as the headlines above show, perpetrators of violent crime are assumed to be male unless stated otherwise shows just how normalized male violence is.  Imagine how much we, as a culture, would be analyzing the socialization of girls if over the course of the past 10 years, 28 young women and no men had gone shooting up schools.

I’m often amazed at how invisible we make the identity of dominant groups in analyzing the behavior of their members, as opposed to the way we imagine that every member of a marginalized group is representative of the entire population of that group.

On a related note, it’s nice to see that we are actually hearing any news at all about Iraq, given that the networks are reducing their presence there, I suppose because news about the war doesn’t sell.  We don’t want to hear about it.  And what we are willing to hear is out-of-context information like these stories, where  our identity as citizens of an imperialist invading country, and therefore co-creators of the hell Iraq has become, is conveniently erased.  It’s just too uncomfortable to consider our part in the creation of so much suffering.  I guess testosterone made us do it.


38 thoughts on One of these things just doesn’t belong here…

  1. The fact that higher testosterone levels correlate with higher levels of aggressive behavior is not “bogus pop science”. It’s not the whole story, of course – as one would expect with any complex human behavior – but dismissing it as a factor entirely strikes me as rather silly.

  2. Just a drive-by comment today:
    men are more likely to be violent largely because their violence is condoned and even encouraged as a normal aspect of male identity…

    I think you’re missing another, complimentry factor: nonviolent behavior by men, especially in response to violence, is viewed very negatively, and the social norms of male violence are often enforced with violence. The same forces that condone male violence work to punish non-compliance. In other words, it’s not just “boys will be boys” rationalizaitons for the behavior, but shaming & shunning of the “why didn’t you stand up for yourself/fight back” type.

  3. I watched a video that had to do with this in my Intro to Sociology class a couple semesters ago–I think it was called “Tough Guise.” It basically said the same thing you just did: that the reason men commit more violent crimes is because society glorifies violence and makes men who prefer to be nonviolent feel inferior and not “manly.” Interesting video; I was pretty impressed with it.

    (I’m honestly amazed more of the men in that class didn’t complain about having to watch that video. There were a couple in there I wanted to throw something at half the time.)

  4. Toast (and everyone else who is going to write some version of your comment): yes, it is. We simply do not understand the endocrine system well enough to make sweeping statements about the effects of testosterone in combination with all of the factors that affect human behavior, or to fully understand cause vs. effect. Ironically, the study you cite is actually fairly clear on this point.

    If you have already read both Anne Fausto-Sterling books and you still want to talk about this, I’m game. Otherwise, I just can’t have the discussion about why patriarchy is unchangeable or justifiable because of “science” one. more. time.

    I’ll remind you that in Nazi Germany, scientists “proved” that Jews were inferior. Cultural context affects science quite a bit.

    Don’t worry: I’m equal opportunity in my refusal to discuss justifications for patriarchy. If your argument was that patriarchy is unchangeable because the Bible/Q’uran/Book of Mormon said so, I’d direct you to the appropriate feminist theologian and tell you to get back to me.

    RodeoBob, excellent point. Couldn’t have said it better.

  5. This article cites crime data on who the perpetrators are, but crime data is totally unreliable because men are less likely than women to report it.

    Sociological survey data is much more reliable and it consistently shows women initiate domestic violence at least as often as men, that men suffer one-third of physical injuries and that self-defense does not explain away this violence, as California State University Professor Martin Fiebert demonstrates in his online bibliography at http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm.

    Last year, Harvard Medical School announced a major national study showing half of heterosexual domestic violence is reciprocal and women initiated most of both the reciprocal and non-reciprocal violence. See http://www.patienteducationcenter.org/aspx/HealthELibrary/HealthETopic.aspx?cid=M0907d.

    A recent 32-nation study by the University of New Hampshire found women are as violent and controlling as men in relationships worldwide. http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2006/may/em_060519male.cfm?type=n
    http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID41E2.pdf

    The University of Florida recently found women are more likely than men to “stalk, attack and abuse” their partners.
    http://news.ufl.edu/2006/07/13/women-attackers/

    This data is recognized by the American Psychological Association.
    http://www.apa.org/monitor/oct06/pc.html

    This Canadian government report also recognizes the above data.
    http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/ncfv-cnivf/familyviolence/pdfs/Intimate_Partner.pdf

    It is wrong to cover up female violence by misframing these issues in gendered terms just out of political correctness. By covering up a huge portion of the violence, Katz reinforces stereotypes, misleads the public and helps foster the violence he claims he wants to end. That’s why a global coalition of concerned experts has formed to combat this bias. Their website is at http://www.nfvlrc.org/.

    It is also not true, as Jackson Katz claims, that 99% of rape perpetrators are men, especially when you consider statutory rape. A student survey publizied in the News Observor found 43% of teacher sex abuse comes from female teachers, but only 4% of teachers investigated for sex abuse are female, and 92% of prosecutions are of male teachers. http://www.newsobserver.com/672/story/501955.html

    According to the Vancouver Sun, the biggest report on sexual exploitation of street kids in Canada found 2/3 of homeless boys were molested by a woman.
    http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=604d29af-5999-47ec-a156-0f5bc96954f2

    There are many examples of female-on-male rape even apart from statutory rape. Tembisia police report women gang raping men. http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=413523 Men in Namibia are frequently raped by women. http://allafrica.com/stories/200708210872.html
    This quadriplegic man had to use his eyes and toes to testify about how his female caregiver raped him. http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/4090392a12855.html

  6. I think you’re missing another, complimentry factor: nonviolent behavior by men, especially in response to violence, is viewed very negatively, and the social norms of male violence are often enforced with violence. The same forces that condone male violence work to punish non-compliance. In other words, it’s not just “boys will be boys” rationalizaitons for the behavior, but shaming & shunning of the “why didn’t you stand up for yourself/fight back” type.

    When I read that, I felt that I heartily agree with the fact that society often punishes men for being non-violent.

    I still remember reading a blog by a very prominent Asian blogger (I am in Asia-Pacific). In it she mentioned that if she were out on a date, and a strange man were to come on too strongly to her, she said she expected her date (a man, as she is heterosexual) to deck the strange bloke, to “protect her honour”. If her date did not punch the guy, and merely led the girl away in the face of the jeering done by strange bloke (and his mates), the girl would consider the guy a wimp, and in serious need of testicles (basically such a non-violent action would be a turn off)…..I was a bit disappointed that a lot of other women agreed with her, all claiming the popular “men nowadays are becoming sissies!” schtick.

    There is a reason why the phase “grow some balls” is used towards, for the most part, men only (ignoring the impossibility of women growing their own testicles of course).

  7. Great post, Ashley.
    Speaking of gender and suicide bombing, up at MMW we have a post that questions the media representation and language used when discussing these women.

  8. Is it derailing too far to bring up how rarely we do talk about men as the victims of violent crime as well?

    Because, as you say, there is no gender applied to “shooting victim” but there will be to “female shooting victim”.

    We don’t talk a lot about violence this way so people arguing with me about feminism will often bring up “men are the victims of violent crime more than women!” without responding to the point of “and that violence is caused by other men“.

  9. Great post.

    I’m really glad you brought up this topic. Normalizing male violence is problematic IMO, and reflective of how people in general use gender science to defend their sterotypes.

    Toast makes a valid point about testosterone influencing crime statistics and other behavior.(whimsical article in Economist Magazine inisists that men with more testosterone are riskier poker players.) This isnt what annoys me

    What does, however, is conservatives, “traditionalists” etc. normalizing domestic violence as something that happens and couples should seek consoling for. Or worse, the conservative position on guns and women. Women need weapons because men are just too out of control and you’ll never know when one of them will lash out at you. Do people realize how extreme a measure that is? My own brother, a liberal anti-sexist, casually agreed on giving women guns-almost as though doing so would be a similar saftey procaustion like wearing a seat-belt.

    How outraging would it be if someone argued for asians to have to carry a pistol because whites and blacks are statistically more likely to attack them? It has become obvious that a large segment of society would rather have women carry guns then make an effort to curb male on female violence. And of course they see the logic in this probably because men and women are “different” and must be treated as such.

  10. I agree with you Anna. You are not derailing from the topic as I feel we need a more holistic approach to this issue otherwise we are going in circles. We should bring up how men have been victim’s of violent crime as well. What is known through this post is that violence has been perpetuated by the outside society. What about the immediate environment that the man was raised in? What about the violence they experienced from their Father or Mother? What was the generational traumas that were carried down in that particular individual? I am actually writing a book about healing the family soul and I will cover this.

    Last week I was talking to a great feminist friend and we discussed how we have wounded our men in this world. I believe that is true and I feel it relates to this post.

    What healing do they need so they don’t feel the need to be violent? If we can address and heal how men have been wounded then this will pave a different path for them, women, children and our world.

  11. We simply do not understand the endocrine system well enough to make sweeping statements about the effects of testosterone in combination with all of the factors that affect human behavior, or to fully understand cause vs. effect.

    You’re right, we don’t understand it well enough to make “sweeping statements”, which is why the authors conclude their abstract with “testosterone
    is only one of a myriad of factors that influence aggression and the effects of previous experience and environmental stimuli have at times been found to correlate more strongly.” That sounds just about right to me. Dismissing any consideration of biological factors as “bogus pop science”, on the other hand, seems like exactly the sort of “sweeping statement” you’re against.

    I just can’t have the discussion about why patriarchy is unchangeable or justifiable because of “science” one. more. time.

    That wasn’t the conversation I was looking to have either. There’s a pretty wide expanse of territory between “Hey, wait, it’s legitimate to suggest testosterone may play a role in violent behavior” (my position) and “Eh, testosterone! It is what it is. (burp)” (the position you seem to be assigning to me).

  12. Ashley, I agree with everything, though there is one thing I have trouble with.

    “I’m often amazed at how invisible we make the identity of dominant groups in analyzing the behavior of their members, as opposed to the way we imagine that every member of a marginalized group is representative of the entire population of that group.”

    My problem is that when we dare talk about things like rape men inmediately get defensive and start off with the “eeeh, now all men are rapists” stuff. So the question is, when one refers to the behaviour of the dominant groups, how come sometimes everyone understands we are talking about a particular member or members and other times it’s taken as criticism of the whole group?

    (sorry if all this sounds confusing and derrailing, it’s just something I’ve been having trouble with)

    Oh, and if “testosterone” or equivalently “men’s intrinsic nature” is what causes them to be violent, I’m afraid the solution would be to lock them all up. We have to protect innocent victims from those who can’t restrain themselves.

  13. RodeoBob and timothynakayama, great comments. I still remember the dunderheads after Virginia Tech who lamented the weakness of the other (male) students for not charging the gunman and living up to their Chuck Norris fantasies.

    Because I know how much safer *I* feel when young men are encouraging to be ‘tougher’ and carry more guns.

    tyro – I’ve seen “Tough Guise” too. It’s really a good film for intro sociology and gender studies classes where people are just beginning to think about and articulate these issues.

  14. Mary Tracy9:

    My problem is that when we dare talk about things like rape men inmediately get defensive and start off with the “eeeh, now all men are rapists” stuff. So the question is, when one refers to the behaviour of the dominant groups, how come sometimes everyone understands we are talking about a particular member or members and other times it’s taken as criticism of the whole group?

    One of the reasons that happens is that, when talking about rape, newspapers use the passive voice – “a woman was raped”. (Sorta like those girls who got themselves pregnant.) Newspapers don’t talk about other crimes this way – “a man robbed a bank.”

    Even as a feminist, when I hear “a man raped a woman”, it feels like an accusation because that’s not the way the news is often presented. I’m working on this myself, but wow do I ever want to write in the passive voice about rape.

    In my mind, there’s one of two ways of addressing this:

    1. Let them suck it up. Seriously, if they really decide that your talking about rape =
    all men are rapists, they’re jerks. Talking about rape does not mean that all women have been raped. Talking about domestic violence doesn’t mean all men are batterers. They’re derailing. It’s not about them. This may be the easier course (it’s the one I’ve started taking because I’m *tired* of having to assure the same men time and again that they’re okay) but it probably won’t win you friends.

    2. Make it a teaching moment. “Why did you think that’s what I mean?” “What makes you feel that way?” Bring up the passive voice and the bank robbing examples, talk about how you automatically assume, the same way you’d assume that not all men watch sports or all men don’t know how to do the laundry or something, that you didn’t need to clarify that. Talk about what you know of the stats.

    This is much harder. It may be worthwhile. Sometimes I just link them to essays and when they squawk I ask if they’ve read the essays yet. (It’s amazing how often thread derailments in LJ can end with the question “have you read X yet?”)

    Anyway, those are my thoughts on talking to men about rape. Be wary – a lot of is derailment. “Gosh, are you gonna tell me all heterosexual sex is rape? What, were you raped? Is that why it matters? So, I guess when you walk down the street and see a man, you avoid him, huh?” It’s not addressing the issue – that some men rape some women – it’s derailing so that you can take over the role of protecting their feelings.

  15. Women need weapons because men are just too out of control and you’ll never know when one of them will lash out at you. Do people realize how extreme a measure that is? My own brother, a liberal anti-sexist, casually agreed on giving women guns-almost as though doing so would be a similar saftey procaustion like wearing a seat-belt.

    While the language used in those arguments is problematic (framing the issue as protecting women from uncontrollable men, putting the onus for preventing an attack on the victim, etc) I’m not so sure that the underlying point is invalid. Sadly, we do live in a violent society. This is especially true for those of us who live in urban areas, which having a higher concentration of violent people because of the higher concentration of people. I think that argument is coming from the mindset that people need weapons because police simply cannot/will not/are disinterested in doing a good enough job of protecting them. In other words, the 99% of people who don’t commit violent crimes should be allowed the tools to protect themselves from the 1% who do. The phrasing is often clumsy and filled with gendered language because, unfortunately, those passionate about gun rights and those passionate about deconstructing language don’t often overlap.

  16. Who was it that said the answer to male violence against women wasn’t a curfew for women but one for men?

    A quick google shows a 2001 story where it was planned to ban men from the streets for one day “as a lesson” but I can’t easily find a follow up.

  17. Ashley, I agree with much of what this post is trying to do, but it also deeply frustrates me. You’ve noted correctly — and this is something I try to push myself — that men commit the vast majority of violence. But what you haven’t noted, whether because it would complicate your argument, you feel it’s irrelevant, or you simply don’t know (but I assume you do know), men commit the vast majority of violence *against other men,* even if we discount violence in war zones, which intellectual honesty would suggest that we shouldn’t.

    In other words, it’s fair to say that violence is seen as a normal part of male identity. But it would also be fair to say that violence *against men* has been normalized. So much so, apparently, that it seems unremarkable to keen observers of gender such as yourself.

    This doesn’t mean there isn’t patriarchy in our society, but it does rather complicate any reasonable understanding of what patriarchy does, and you do your readers a disservice by ignoring this.

  18. Wow, I apologize for the formatting mess above! Clicking the quoted text will take you to the article.

  19. The testosterone and aggression debate is still an open question. While there does seem to be some correlation (and probably causal connection) in the literature between aggression and testosterone levels, it isn’t going to be the only piece of the puzzle. You’d need a truly massive sample to do the kind of regression analysis required to figure out just how much of the variance in levels of violence could be attributed to aggression, and even then you’d likely only have a snap shot of a single region or cultural group. Even then, where would that data get us? Lets say we found out that 50% of aggression is attributable to increased levels of testosterone, what does that tell us? What are we going to do, test kids in middle school for hormone levels and proscribe drugs to balance them to levels less likely to be violent?

  20. Mike, I am well aware that men are mostly violent against other men, and I note that in ANY educational presentation I do about men’s violence against women and gender non-conforming people. I am very aware of the pain patriarchy causes men, as anyone familiar with a broader range of my work could tell you. Like any form of oppression, patriarchy hurts everyone involved, not just the group most subjugated by the oppression.

    However, the KIND of violence men direct at other men is quite different from the violence men direct at women. The impact of sexual violence, in particular, is tremendous. Women literally cannot move freely because of it. We move through the world with the constant awareness that we are vulnerable to a form of torture.

    The type of violence directed at people of various gender identities is all related to cultural definitions of masculinity, but it is important to talk about men’s violence against women specifically because our culture is patriarchal and generally doesn’t give a shit about things that happen to women, so it is typical for people to deflect attention from sexual violence and partner violence and toward something that concerns men more, because men are considered more important.

    I’ll also say that it isn’t my role to challenge the definitions of masculinity and the violence it causes men from a male perspective. That is up to men. Like you.

    My problem is that when we dare talk about things like rape men inmediately get defensive and start off with the “eeeh, now all men are rapists” stuff. So the question is, when one refers to the behaviour of the dominant groups, how come sometimes everyone understands we are talking about a particular member or members and other times it’s taken as criticism of the whole group?

    Well, in my experience defensiveness is pretty huge whenever you show someone their privilege. If it makes you feel better, I think it’s often just a knee-jerk reaction, and that your points do eventually sink in for people–you just may not know it at that moment. So I just say something like “No, most men are not violent. However, the majority of people who are violent are men. Why do you think that is?”

    When I talk to people about this stuff, I also make a point of talking about how patriarchy harms men, and the pressure men feel to act traditionally masculine. Most men connect to that right away–as I noted above, they have a lot of pain surrounding the hostility our culture directs at them whenever they don’t conform.

    Once, when I was talking to a frat about this, the light went on for a guy, and he said, “Hey! Yeah, guys! We have to stop being so mean to each other!” It was one of my favorite teachable moments 🙂

    I also talk to people about bystander behavior and social norms–i.e. they probably aren’t rapists, but maybe they aid in the creation of a culture that normalizes and condones attitudes that lead to rape.

    Oh, and if “testosterone” or equivalently “men’s intrinsic nature” is what causes them to be violent, I’m afraid the solution would be to lock them all up. We have to protect innocent victims from those who can’t restrain themselves.

    Good point. If the reason men are violent is because there is something wrong with their intrinsic nature (I very strongly do not believe this to be the case), the answer is not to excuse their violence—it is to either lock up all the men or play with their biology until we fix it. Their level of violence is simply not acceptable, and it will take down the entire human race if it isn’t stopped. I think a lot of the people claiming that the poor menz can’t help their biology don’t take their argument to its logical conclusion.

  21. Fair points, and I appreciate your reply. Just a couple places I disagree:

    1. It’s good that you tell people in those situations, but you didn’t note it here. I think it’s misleading to note one statistic without noting the other. My criticism wasn’t that you didn’t know — I was fairly certain you would. My criticism is that you shouldn’t note one statistic without noting the other.

    2. I don’t think it makes sense to suggest that violence against women doesn’t count when, as you yourself have more or less acknowledged, violence against men has been normalized. If the fact that most violence is committed by men means male violence has been normalized, as you argue, then logically the fact that most violence is committed against men must mean that this has been normalized as well. I’ll quote my blogged response to your post here, out of laziness:

    “Violence against women by men, while considered “normal” in a way that is deeply unhealthy, is at least generally considered morally wrong. Violence between men, meanwhile, is considered one of the holiest, most sacrosanct traditions in our shared global culture: the warrior code, supporting the troops, and all that jazz. In fact, violence between men is often justified by the immorality of violence against women. One of the main ways of establishing who is the hero and who is the villain in a story is showing one man hurting a woman, and another man treating her well or saving her, frequently by killing the man. This is troubling in that it reduces women to objects upon which men act in order to define themselves, but it’s also troubling because this is one of the main rhetorical resources by which war is justified and morally cleansed; remember when we had to go into Afghanistan and Iraq to save the women from their savage Arab male oppressors?”

    3. I’ll accept that sexual violence against women by men is a special case and requires special discussion. On the other hand, doesn’t that suggest that murder, which is mostly committed by men against other men, also requires this kind of discussion? Or is murder somehow less heinous than rape?

    4. I write about violence and men from a male perspective on a regular basis, but not many people read me. I also think the feminist movement is uniquely positioned to be productive in commenting on these issues from its own perspective. As such, I use my voice to push for the feminist movement to do that. You may feel that it’s not worthy of your time, but I disagree — and I think that if you’re going to talk about the violence men commit, fairness and honesty require that you discuss the violence to which they are *victims.* This is not a “WHAT ABOUT TEH MENZ” moment — it’s a genuine, and desperate, cry for help from anyone in a position to give it.

    After all, if you want me to be an ally — and I assume you do — I don’t see why I can’t ask the same of you.

  22. Mike:

    Despite your claims to the contrary, your comment is, in fact, a WHAT ABOUT TEH MENZ moment.

    “If the fact that most violence is committed by men means male violence has been normalized, as you argue, then logically the fact that most violence is committed against men must mean that this has been normalized as well.”

    Most violence that is committed by men against men is considered to be crime. Murder, theft, assault. It is assumed implicitly that the person committing the crime is entirely responsible for the crime. Most violence that is committed by men against women is considered to be a woman’s issue, and why doesn’t that stupid bitch just leave him / stay off the streets / cover more of her body so she’s not tempting the poor guys?

    “I’ll accept that sexual violence against women by men is a special case and requires special discussion. On the other hand, doesn’t that suggest that murder, which is mostly committed by men against other men, also requires this kind of discussion?”

    It does require this kind of discussion. But why here? Why would a self-claimed ally (or potential ally) possibly want to elbow their way into a feminist space and say, “But male violence affects men too!”?

    I’d understand saying something like “This is a good discussion, [response to actual discussion here] and I see some crossover between male on male violence, and here [link] is where I discuss it. You should come over and share your opinions.” But what you’re doing? All about teh menz.

    We sure so want allies, and we will certainly take up our allies’ causes, but it’s not at all “feminist” to run into a feminist space with that kind of ‘tude. You aren’t that special, that we’ll drop what we’ll doing and rush over to your camp if you threaten to take away your “support”. We’re plenty strong enough all by ourselves, thanks.

  23. Mike, I recognize that your pain is legitimate, but I do hear what you are saying as “what about teh menz.” I understand that it is unintentional, but you are attempting to direct the conversation away from holding men accountable for violence, away from men’s violence against women, and toward men as victims. Focusing on men’s victimization is sometimes important, and sometimes a way to direct attention away from male privilege and male violence.

    I feel that you are not recognizing your privilege in this situation. As a man, people are much more likely to listen to you when you talk about these things, and to allow you to make a statement without nitpicking your every point. When I led court-ordered batterer’s groups, I can’t tell you how many times the men fought me on points that male facilitators could make with barely a peep of dissent.

    It is unfair to expect me, as a woman, to spend my time ending the part of patriarchy that you have more power to change. It is also inappropriate for a man to tell a woman how she should be spending her time and energy when it comes to being the right kind of feminist. Can’t you see the problem with that?

    You are misusing the word ally as I understand it, and removing privilege from the equation. I don’t expect black people to be “allies” to white people or queer people to be “allies” to straight people. It works the other way ’round.

    It seems to me that the real problem for you isn’t my post, but that you see a problem and don’t know what actions you could take to address it. I’d suggest you read The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity and Love by bell hooks and The Macho Paradox by Jackson Katz. Maybe those books can give you some ideas. You might also check out fem.men.ist. I think Richard does a nice job of discussing patriarchy from a male perspective.

    Being an ally ain’t fucking easy. You will find yourself being ridiculed, belittled, and punished by other members of the privileged class you are a part of. Then you’ll find yourself knocked all over the place by members of the subjugated group who feel that you’re not doing enough or not doing the right things. Them’s the brakes. We’re allies because it’s the right thing to do, not because we want cookies. Good luck.

  24. Okay, I can see that this is getting into diminishing returns territory, so I’ll make one last point and then I’m out:

    This isn’t a “what about the menz” comment because it’s not immaterial to the main point of the post. Quite the opposite: I was discussing the missing piece of this post. I was responding to its actual central point. I didn’t derail anything. I didn’t bring it up where it wasn’t related. I brought up the effects of male violence on men under circumstances where *not* discussing it was a bizarre omission, not under circumstances where it was a stretch to imagine them relevant.

    The idea that one can only discuss issues from a female perspective and only insofar as they directly pertain to women in a feminist space is ridiculous. And I’m not threatening to withdraw my support, though I can see why you would take what I said that way. I’m asking for support in return.

  25. The above comment was meant to be a response to Muse, not Ashley, but it works well enough for both. To Ashley, I will only add — again, with respect for our differences, and appreciation for your reply — that I’m only asking that when you note that men are more violent than women, you also note that men *receive more of that violence* than women. You can call that an attempt to use my privilege as a man in anti-feminist if you want, but I think it’s holding you to basic standards of intellectual and moral honesty. To write about the problem the way you wrote about it isn’t just focusing on women, it’s actively deceptive, and in an actively harmful way. I don’t think you meant to do that, but it’s what you did.

    And to suggest that men are simply on their own when it comes to their issues because of privilege is deeply troubling to me. It ignores the class element in play here — the poor are not privileged, and they are disproportionately affected by what I’m talking about — and it seems rather bizarrely ungenerous. Why can’t you help me too? I’m not saying you have to, I’m asking you. I’m asking especially because, as I’ve said before, I think feminists are uniquely qualified to help here — because my privileged male brethren are not, generally speaking, very well equipped to handle the problem.

    I’ll stop derailing now, and I apologize if you feel I’ve violated your space.

  26. You can call that an attempt to use my privilege as a man in anti-feminist if you want, but I think it’s holding you to basic standards of intellectual and moral honesty. To write about the problem the way you wrote about it isn’t just focusing on women, it’s actively deceptive, and in an actively harmful way. I don’t think you meant to do that, but it’s what you did.

    I think you’re missing the points that Ashley and Muse have been making, Mike. The fact of the matter is that the specific focus of discussion here was the ways in which gender and language factor into perceptions, reporting, and responses to violence. Moreover, this discussion is on a feminist web site. The point that was being made is that there is plenty of literature and discussion about the effects of violence on men because the focus of most social discussion is on the ruling class. Yes, men face more violence than women, but the violence women face is of such a substantially different nature that it deserves special discussion. Beyond that, the social response to that violence is different enough that it can’t really be considered the same thing. Discussions have boundaries, and sometimes you need to define just what you’re talking about in order to avoid mission creep.

    Lets put it another way. Say I’m in a bar, a drink gets spilled, words are exchanged, and then it comes to blows. If I get in a fist fight at a bar with another guy, society isn’t going to respond very much. Unless someone is seriously injured charges are unlikely to be filed, the police might not care to arrest because its too much paperwork, none of my friends or acquaintances will be shocked or horrified, and a year or two down the road its just another story that gets traded around for laughs or nostalgia. Society deems it a non-issue, or even a badge of honor. Even then, the reasons for me getting into a fight are unlikely to be social but situational or interpersonal. No one is going to start swinging on me because I’m a man and I don’t matter. If a woman was involved in the same kind of conflict, in the same setting, with the same behaviors, the social responses, attributions, and reasons for someone attacking her are likely to be very different. The guy who starts swinging with me is going to be thinking “this guy is an asshole, I should hit him” if I were a woman the thought would more likely be “this bitch doesn’t know her place, I’ll show her.” Even at this fairly mundane level of violence, the reasons, reactions, and attributions are so different that they become different kinds of violence.

    The point that Ashley and Muse were making was that pointing out men’s victimization is showing your privilege because you don’t seem to be making that very basic connection. Violence faced by men is a different creature than violence faced by women. Moreover, no matter how badly we might get our asses kicked in a bar fight, you and I can be pretty sure the fight isn’t going to end in rape. That simply isn’t true for a woman, and that makes all the difference in the world.

  27. Oh, and if “testosterone” or equivalently “men’s intrinsic nature” is what causes them to be violent, I’m afraid the solution would be to lock them all up. We have to protect innocent victims from those who can’t restrain themselves.

    Exactly. If men want to fall back on some biological, irrepressible reason for being violent then there really is only one option left…they leave us no choice….

  28. Mike,

    The above comment was meant to be a response to Muse, not Ashley, but it works well enough for both. To Ashley, I will only add — again, with respect for our differences, and appreciation for your reply — that I’m only asking that when you note that men are more violent than women, you also note that men *receive more of that violence* than women.

    If men are the ones mainly causing AND receiving of the violence then wouldn’t more men be actively working AGAINST the grain of violent socialization of men, at least for their own safety and well being? Unfortunately, it is up to feminists and women (the ones not causing most of the violence, yet receiving their fair share) to try and show men how to behave and how not to behave. It is at its very core men’s problem, but it becomes women’s problem when men fail to fix themselves and each other.

  29. Oh, and if “testosterone” or equivalently “men’s intrinsic nature” is what causes them to be violent, I’m afraid the solution would be to lock them all up. We have to protect innocent victims from those who can’t restrain themselves.

    Why bother with a lock up at all? Admittedly I read about this from a book, but wouldn’t it make sense just to kill all the males instead? When you lock people up, they still have a chance of escaping, but if you kill them, unless technology allows us to bring back people from the dead sometime in the future, they stay dead.

    Since we were all females before some of us got changed to males, then there are some who would view men as the mutants/abnormal, and as I’ve often heard, “poisoned” by their own vast amounts of testosterone. The natural conclusion that stems from the theory that men are the evil and violent ones in society is that if you kill all of them, then finally, all the violence and rapes and assaults, etc, will stop, and women can finally live free without worrying about being raped every second of their lives. Afterall, scientists have discovered ways to replicate sperm, or so I’ve heard, and since women and men are both humans and men have no additional biological purpose other than creating sperm, he is in essence, obsolete not essential for reproduction (assuming that sperm replication is totally without defects).

    Isn’t there a study out there that shows that due to the degeneration of the Y chromosome, men will be extinct anyway in something like 33,000 years or something like that? Humanity probably won’t live that long (we’d have destroyed ourselves before then, most likely), but it is interesting nevertheless.

    Sorry, but I’ve always been interested in the above scenarios, from a what if? point of view.

  30. Okay, we’ve ventured into SCUM manifesto territory now. I hope random people who come across this will realize people are joking about the logical (and insane) conclusion of antifeminist arguments, not actually calling for a male genocide.

  31. Isn’t there a study out there that shows that due to the degeneration of the Y chromosome, men will be extinct anyway in something like 33,000 years or something like that?

    Thats bad science for a number of reasons. First and foremost, the y chromosome isn’t the only sex determining chromosome in the animal kingdom; it isn’t even the only one found in mammals. Second, the y chromosome has been around for about 300 million years. Humans in their modern form have been around for about 200,000 years. A drastic genetic change in 33,000 years is unlikely. Its taken around 50,000 years to develop the tiny differences we seen between races, something in the neighborhood of 10,000 years to develop blue eyes. The idea that something as fundamental as biological sex could somehow disappear in the evolutionary blip of 33,000 years is unlikely. Even beyond that you have the issue of recombination. I think it was at MIT, but recently a group of researchers discovered that the y chromosome is capable of rebuilding itself because of redundant gene sequences. On top of that, you’re looking at a civilization that is on the cusp of literally besting nature. I doubt that humanity won’t at least have the technology to design genes and chromosomes 100 years out from now. Think about it, do you really think the more technologically advances cultures on earth will even have gender in a recognizable form 200 or 300 years from now? What would gender mean in a world where people could try on whatever body they wanted for a day or a year at a time? What happens when gender reassignment becomes a reversible, outpatient procedure? What happens when men can give birth and technology makes the difference between men and women purely cosmetic?

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