Feministe Feedback: How to Discuss Feminist Issues

22 thoughts on Feministe Feedback: How to Discuss Feminist Issues

1. I’d be really straightforward about it, personally. I’d say, “You know, you guys really seem to hate your bodies. Have you thought about why that is?” I’d listen to their perspectives on their bodies, and then ask them where they got the standard they’re comparing themselves to. Then I’d say, “It’s really disgusting how so many people make so much money from telling women they’re ugly, and therefore worthless, isn’t it? I mean, if we actually loved ourselves the way we are, Weight Watchers and Maybelline would be out of business!” And then I’d recommend this great book I read, called The Fat Girl’s Guide to Life. It’s an accessible and witty little book that serves as a gentle introduction to third-wave feminist critique of the beauty/weight-loss industry and fat-acceptance.

2. because I am becoming increasingly concerned with the prevalence of body-hating talk whenever we get together.

   It seems like a good idea to voice this concern to your friends and go from there, no?

   Also. Cheesy second idea… start a book club!

3. “What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.” – Don Draper-MadMen

   I think that it’s important to remind women that most of the unrealistic expectations women have for ourselves were created by men running marketing and advertising agencies. This is a media issue as much as it is a feminist one.

4. I just avoid engaging in body and diet talk. It is sometimes awkward because there is some perverse bonding going on but I only talk about how tasty and/or healthy my meals are not what its imagined diet benefits would be.

   It is all I feel like I can do.

5. The last time the ‘diet’ subject was brought up at work, it went something like this:

   Co-worker Y : You’ve lost weight, haven’t you?

   Me: I’m not sure. I don’t own a bathroom scale.

   Y: Your pants look kind of bigger.

   Me: Yeah. And I don’t want to have to buy new ones.

   Y: I’d like to loose some weight. I want to look good in a bikini this summer.

   Me: What? Where would you lose the weight from?
   *I gestured toward her small frame, moving my hands close together, kind of a ‘the fish was that small’ motion*

   Y: *Laughs* Uhhh, my hips. And my thighs.

   Me: But you look fine the way you are. Really.

   In that conversation, I managed to let another woman know that (a) I don’t keep track of my weight (b) weight loss does not make me happy – having to buy new pants sucks (c) she was fine the way she was.

   Now as to whether that minute of talk had any impact, I don’t know. I was attempting to inject a bit of, I don’t know, positive thinking about my co-worker’s body and hoping it would make her feel good about it the way it was. I don’t want to play ‘the my body is worse game’, or ‘lets talk about losing weight/diets’, or any of the other conversational avenues that we could have gone down. I think the only thing I way I could deal with the thought that she wanted to lose weight was treating as though it was absurd/funny.

   (Also, is not owning a bathroom scale odd? Because that part of the conversation earned me a weird look.)

6. You might look up some stats on how much the beauty industry makes each year and how this industry is reliant on making people feel their bodies are unacceptable (as this is the case, you telling them they are beautiful does not help and actually ‘feeds’ their addiction to beauty — try to compliment/support them in other ways)

   Perhaps initiate a ‘no diet talk’ rule — tell them why focusing on appearance/diet bothers you and suggest more fruitful topics for conversation

   Susan Bordo’s work is great — see especially her book Unbearable Weight- or, for something less theoretical, see Body Outlaws

   Maybe your friends would watch one of the Killing us Softly videos by Jean Kilbourne – they are widely available at libraries (she also has a website) – or, for more on the advertising anlgle, see genderads.com

7. I tell people that I’m willing to support them in their health and fitness goals, but that I’m really not interested in talking about appearance neuroses because in my experience that just makes them worse.

8. I am very much like ellenbrenna. Those kinds of conversations just make me feel weird. The worst is when gals who are much thinner than me talk about how fat they are – not only do I not want to talk about it, but they are sort of insulting me at the same time. There are times when I’m so new to a situation or a person that I will stumble along and try to bring everything back to issues of health.

   With friends like the ones you describe, I just tell them that yes, they are ugly. I really despise those mind games where people are eliciting a compliment by insulting themselves, so I just agree with their insult and generally over time they stop bringing it up.

   Obviously this is not for everyone and I think it’s debatable that I’m advancing any worthwhile except my own need for sanity.

9. I managed to let another woman know that … she was fine the way she was.

   Well, you let her know that you thought she was fine the way she was. Whether or not she cares about that is a whole other story. I think it’s very easy for us to say, “My friend likes me the way I look now, but her opinion doesn’t really count because she isn’t my SO/a potential SO/my mother/a fashionista/”society”/the voice inside my head; in fact, she’s a radical feminist/a lesbian/ugly/fatter than I am/totally unfashionable/probably just lying anyway.” And that makes sense. If you believe that you will never get a good mate unless you’re thin, for example, then it doesn’t really matter what some random person says to you.

10. Let me second Susan Bordo as a recommendation, and our mutual friend Courtney Martin’s terrific Perfect Girls, Starving Daughters.

11. With issues like that, I tend to focus on what’s in front of everyone rather than dragging in general abstract things – whether it’s feminist theories or stats about the beauty industry. Just asking why they’re so down on their wonderful, strong bodies is more useful than lining up the usual suspects, imo. Listen as well as speaking – it’s likely that they’ve got things to show you about how sexism and body-hate operate, and it’s important to learn from them and respond to them if you want to push sexism out of your social life.

12. Also, is not owning a bathroom scale odd? Because that part of the conversation earned me a weird look.

    I don’t own one either MJ. I just never bought one, one more thing to move, right? Now that I’m more stable (ie, the same apartment for more than one year) it has occurred to me that it is probably strange not to own one. But that certainly isn’t a reason to buy one.

13. My friends rarely bring diet/exercise/weight up because they know exactly how much I *do not* care. The only one who ever did got tired of me taking the wind out of her sails by responding to her comments about needing exercise with ‘whatever makes you happy. It’s your body, you get to decide what makes it look good’.

    When I worked at the fabric store, a gym went in next door and that made it a topic of casual conversation. I would tell people to save their money and help us put away fabric. 🙂 It was amazing the number of people who were joining to make ‘someone else’ happy. Jeez, if I’m gonna spend that much money and go through that much effort, I’m gonna do it for myself and ‘someone else’ can go jump in a lake. 🙂 I accidentally told a few customers that.

    When I sub, I’ve had more than a few kids make comments about my appearance (plump, short hair, temple braids, handmade clothing) but I just tell them that I like myself exactly the way I am. Most of them will forget it when the bell rings, but if even one kid decides they can be who *they* want to be instead of who *everyone else* wants them to be, then it is enough.

14. Send your friends over to Shapely Prose! 🙂

    Seriously, though, we do talk about this kind of issue a lot. My brilliant co-blogger Fillyjonk wrote a post about changing the conversation from bad body talk to positive body talk that might be helpful. To quote the most practical part:

    Target your sanest friends, and have a public conversation about tasty food and how tasty it is, or exercise and how fun it is, or comfortable clothes and how cute they can be.

15. I already tell them regularly that they are beautiful, but I worry that 1) I’m reinforcing the idea that conventional beauty determines female value and 2) they don’t believe me anyway.

    Unfortunately, that is indeed what is happening. It also reinforces the idea that the only way a woman can be interesting, sympathetic, and deserving of attention is to either display her body or to talk about her body. Women’s verbal self-abuse is like the submission-smile. So, it doesn’t matter what you say in response, if your response is anything about their bodies: no matter how well-intentioned you are, anything you say about their bodies reinforces the bad thing.

    So what do you do? Talk to them about books, movies, friends, jobs, current events, the weather. Talk to them like people, and ignore the fact that they are afraid to talk to you like people. If you have to make a really awkward, jarring transition from “I hate my thighs” to “Can you believe how high gas prices have gotten?” that is a good thing, believe it or not, because it will bring home to them in a way lectures never can just how weird and unpleasant what they’re saying is, and how out of place it is in normal conversation. And, frankly, how boring it is to other people.

16. From my perspective as someone who has body issues, I’m not sure what to make of some of the current comments. I find this topic troubling because I think that many people have a tendency to dismiss the body-hating language and self-criticism that conventionally-attractive women voice as not heartfelt or just part of acting femininity. The scars and problems can be deeper than that.

    I know that these things only capture part of what’s going on when I end up engaging in body-hating talk with friends. For me, my weight and self-perceived ugliness is something that is always at the back of my mind. If the topic of weight and appearance comes up it will trigger body-hating thoughts and comments for me. Changing the topic might avoid making your friends’ self-perceived inadequacies a subject of conversation, but if they are making comments based on underling problems and insecurities I’m not sure it will help.

    I haven’t solved my own problems, so I’m not sure what advice I can give to help you mitigate whatever problems your friends might have.

    For me, it doesn’t matter how thin I actually am, I always feel fat and uncomfortable in my body. I am capable of disordered behavior to follow through on my disordered thoughts, but mostly I don’t act on my feelings. It doesn’t mean that they are not there or that I am judging other people by the same standards I judge myself. I am perfectly capable of talking to a friend who probably counts as objectively “fatter” than I am whatever that means and thinking she looks great while feeling angry with myself for not being thinner and more toned. The only things that I’ve found help for me is to be busy, not read or watch things about weight loss etc…, and to accept that I’m ugly no matter what so its not that big a deal if I am a little plump (yes I realize that the last one is weird but embracing unprettyness helps).

    You know, that best thing that people have done for me when I engage in body-hating talk or actions is to tell me that I am being disordered in how I’m talking or acting rather than just changing the subject or saying something like “but you’re thin ” or “I think you look pretty” etc… Maybe something similar would help with your friends?

17. At this very moment my coworker is updating us all on her diet (she’s lost a stone so far). She’s not even what I’d call chubby…honestly, she’s fine as she is. But as a super-skinny girl, I feel like I can’t talk.

18. The thing I’ve found most effective, to get my friends thinking about feminism and being aware of it, is to bring it up in terms of media — we’re all media geeks, so we talk about movies and novels and TV shows a lot, and so they’re willing to listen to me when I talk about the portrayal of women in those contexts more than they are willing to listen to me rant about John McCain’s creepy and disgusting attitude toward women. For example, in the TV show Stargate: Atlantis, recently, there was a conversation between two women, smart, educated, powerful women…about relationships. They were alone together, in a crisis situation, and the (male) writers assumed that they would discuss relationships, who wanted to sleep with whom, etc., etc. And when I started flailing about that — “They have so much more to worry about! Why would she care? How is this an appropriate conversation? Why are they making us listen to this? If this were the male leads, they would be cracking Star Trek jokes! Where are the explosions?” — they actually looked at the text again and said, “You know, you’re right. That’s weird. That’s gender-specific and stupid.”

    Once they see it in media, and once I point it out, they’ll see it again, on their own next time, I think. I hope.

19. My typical response to the diet conversations is that with the current cost of food I simply cannot afford to the loose what I have invested in my fat butt, besides which it is my family inheritance. Usually that brings on some laughs and the conversation moves on to something else.

20. Melissa Mad thanks for your post- as one who is completely out of touch with how i actually look versus whatever weird controlling judgment is happening in my mind, i have also found it hard to read this conversation…i know that the original post was for advice, not self-centered musings on our own issues, but…it is very difficult to deal with body image issues as an active member of the feminist community. i mean, i can recite all the talking points about media and misogyny and capitalism as well as the next person…i know that stuff. unfortunately there seems to be a disconnect between my wealth of knowledge and my emotional well-being.

    for what it’s worth, when i’m getting stuck in my head about body stuff or caught in those scripted conversations groups of women tend to have in social settings, there are two things that i have found helpful:

    1. people who say pretty bluntly that they don’t want to hear about it. while it can sound a little harsh, i certainly don’t press the issue!

    2. people who are just sort of blandly supportive, “everyone feels insecure about stuff sometimes, it’s really hard with all the conflicting messages out there, sometimes i feel insecure about ‘x’….”

    i don’t know if that’s helpful.

21. I, too, am scale-free. I just up and tell them, “There’s only 2 scales I’m interested in…diatonic and Richter.”

22. Hard for me to answer this, I am constantly making enemies because I identify as a feminist. usually the people who have a problem with me the most are woman.

Comments are currently closed.