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Where Are We Going, And Why Are We In This Handbasket?

I have had occasion to think a lot about the developing economic situation in the US. The more I think, the more worried I get, because this is not the short-term problem that some folks are hoping it is. This isn’t even 1991-92 again. This is a sea-change.

Robert Reich, the Bill Clinton cabinet member, agrees. In a February 13, 2008 op-ed (which I will excerpt because they keep it behind the subscription wall) he said:

But the normal remedies are not likely to work this time, because this isn’t a normal downturn.

The problem lies deeper. It is the culmination of three decades during which American consumers have spent beyond their means. That era is now coming to an end. Consumers have run out of ways to keep the spending binge going.

Why have consumers spent themselves out?

The underlying problem has been building for decades. America’s median hourly wage is barely higher than it was 35 years ago, adjusted for inflation. The income of a man in his 30s is now 12 percent below that of a man his age three decades ago. Most of what’s been earned in America since then has gone to the richest 5 percent.

So what did Americans who work for a living do?

The problem has been masked for years as middle- and lower-income Americans found ways to live beyond their paychecks. But now they have run out of ways.

The first way was to send more women into paid work. Most women streamed into the work force in the 1970s less because new professional opportunities opened up to them than because they had to prop up family incomes. The percentage of American working mothers with school-age children has almost doubled since 1970 — to more than 70 percent. But there’s a limit to how many mothers can maintain paying jobs.

So Americans turned to a second way of spending beyond their hourly wages. They worked more hours. The typical American now works more each year than he or she did three decades ago. Americans became veritable workaholics, putting in 350 more hours a year than the average European, more even than the notoriously industrious Japanese.

But there’s also a limit to how many hours Americans can put into work, so Americans turned to a third way of spending beyond their wages. They began to borrow. With housing prices rising briskly through the 1990s and even faster from 2002 to 2006, they turned their homes into piggy banks by refinancing home mortgages and taking out home-equity loans. But this third strategy also had a built-in limit. With the bursting of the housing bubble, the piggy banks are closing.

I appreciate that Reich debunks the conservative shibboleth that feminism causes women to seek paying work. Women have always done paid work outside the home. They had to. My mother, born into rural poverty, contributed her babysitting money to the family income when she was a pre-teen and teen. Her father was absent, her mother worked, her sisters and brothers all worked, and they grew some vegetables and raised some pigs and chickens because that’s how they got enough to eat. That’s the 1950s that were in rural New England. It wasn’t a Norman Rockwell painting. For the rural poor, it was rural poverty. The 1950s with men in the office and women polishing shiny appliances mail-ordered from Nieman Marcus existed, to the extent it wasn’t all just fiction, for a tiny class-privileged slice of the women in the U.S. The rest were not white or affluent. The “problem with no name” that Friedan wrote about wasn’t a problem my mother’s people had.

So first we put all the parents in the workforce (those that were not already there, those families that had two parents around), then we worked more hours and more overtime (those that could get it), then we borrowed on credit cards (if available), borrowed against retirement savings (those who had them), and borrowed against houses (those who owned them). Now we’ve run out of running room. Nationwide, most folks who are not very affluent are very overextended, without savings, in debt, and struggling just to keep from sliding backwards.

Since the U.S. crawled out of the depression, we had growth, driven first by exports to a world destroyed by war and artifically stunted by colonial exploitation, and by the population explosion of the baby boom. When that cycle should have eased off, instead the last thirty years kept the profit flowing upwards as working people got ever more squeezed, and now a seventy year cycle is closing out.

Nervous yet?

Stephen Roach, the former chief economist at Morgan Stanley and now the chair of Morgan Stanley Asia, is. In his March 5, 2008 op-ed in the Times (again, subscription wall), he said:

The central question for the economy is this: Will this medicine work? The same question was asked repeatedly in Japan during its “lost decade” of the 1990s. Unfortunately, as was the case in Japan, the answer may be no.
* * *
The United States is now going through its second post-bubble downturn in seven years. Yet this one stands in sharp contrast to the post-bubble shakeout in the stock market during 2000 and 2001. Back then, there was a collapse in business capital spending, a sector that peaked at only 13 percent of real gross domestic product.

The current recession has been set off by the simultaneous bursting of property and credit bubbles. The unwinding of these excesses is likely to exact a lasting toll on both homebuilders and American consumers. Those two economic sectors collectively peaked at 78 percent of gross domestic product, or fully six times the share of the sector that pushed the country into recession seven years ago.

For asset-dependent, bubble-prone economies, a cyclical recovery — even when assisted by aggressive monetary and fiscal accommodation — isn’t a given. Over the past six years, income-short consumers made up for the weak increases in their paychecks by extracting equity from the housing bubble through cut-rate borrowing that was subsidized by the credit bubble. That game is now over. . . Given the outsize imbalance between supply and demand for new homes, housing prices may need to fall an additional 20 percent to clear the market. . . Aggressive interest rate cuts have not done much to contain the lethal contagion spreading in credit and capital markets. Now that their houses are worth less and loans are harder to come by, hard-pressed consumers are unlikely to be helped by lower interest rates.

Japan’s experience demonstrates how difficult it may be for traditional policies to ignite recovery after a bubble. In the early 1990s, Japan’s property and stock market bubbles burst. That implosion was worsened by a banking crisis and excess corporate debt. Nearly 20 years later, Japan is still struggling.

There are eerie similarities between the United States now and Japan then. The Bank of Japan ran an excessively accommodative monetary policy for most of the 1980s. In the United States, the Federal Reserve did the same thing beginning in the late 1990s. In both cases, loose money fueled liquidity booms that led to major bubbles.

Moreover, Japan’s central bank initially denied the perils caused by the bubbles. Similarly, it’s hard to forget the Fed’s blasé approach to the asset bubbles of the past decade, especially as the subprime mortgage crisis exploded last August.

In Japan, a banking crisis constricted lending for years. In the United States, a full-blown credit crisis could do the same.

The unwinding of excessive corporate indebtedness in Japan and a “keiretsu” culture of companies buying one another’s equity shares put extraordinary pressures on business spending. In America, an excess of household indebtedness could put equally serious and lasting restrictions on consumer spending.
***
Government aid is being aimed, mistakenly, at maintaining unsustainably high rates of personal consumption. Yet that’s precisely what got the United States into this mess in the first place — pushing down the savings rate, fostering a huge trade deficit and stretching consumers to take on an untenable amount of debt.

A more effective strategy would be to try to tilt the economy away from consumption and toward exports and long-needed investments in infrastructure.

That’s not to say Washington shouldn’t help the innocent victims of the bubble’s aftermath — especially lower- and middle-income families. But the emphasis should be on providing income support for those who have been blindsided by this credit crisis rather than on rekindling excess spending by overextended consumers.

American authorities, especially Federal Reserve officials, harbor the mistaken belief that swift action can forestall a Japan-like collapse. The greater imperative is to avoid toxic asset bubbles in the first place. Steeped in denial and engulfed by election-year myopia, Washington remains oblivious of the dangers ahead.

We have an unstable and unsustainable economy. It has worked well, for a long time now, only for those at the very top. What is unsustainable cannot be sustained. Apparently I am not the only educated, affluent white man who thinks we have reached the point of reckoning. Hopefully when we crawl out of the mess we’re starting to see, we will have a more sustainable economy that works for all of us. Even if that’s the way it happens, the process will be scary.

Buckle up.


52 thoughts on Where Are We Going, And Why Are We In This Handbasket?

  1. Fascinating topic. Of course I’m still optimistic that it won’t be that bad if we take some much needed medicine immediately-right-this-very-second.

    And the huge elephant in the room is the US dollar which has for decades been propped up by our reputation as a safe foreign reserve currency. This has allowed us to purchase foreign goods at non-market prices which has in turn led to insufficient investment in US industry. But rather than taking the recent dollar slide as part of the “medicine” we’re still trying to prop it up. (Not to mention courting additional inflation risk with this interest rates.)

    Ahhh….economics…far more fun than law….

  2. I’m kind of shocked that so few Americans seem aware of just how screwed we really are.

    It’s been obvious to me for a long time that our economic model is ultimately unsustainable. I’m 47, and I’ve seen the struggles and the unrealistic expectations of every president (and his economic advisers, treasury secretaries, Fed chairmen, etc.) since LBJ.

    Add to this constant Republican pressure to reverse all economic reforms since FDR, to end all social programs and destroy the “safety net”, and transfer income from the poor and middle class to the rich, especially over the last 40-years.

    Now add the impending end of oil as an energy source.

    “Buckle up.” – indeed…

  3. Yeah, we are screwed. And not just in the future, either, cus there’s a lot of people’s lives changing already. Poor people are getting hit hardest, as always, and like everyone already knows. But rural life is getting hit particularly because of gas prices, and because rural industry is getting hit harder, too (agriculture, shipping industry). You talked about your mom and rural poverty- I grew up in some of that, too, and it’s only been in the past 3 years (now that the kids got jobs or live away) that she’s been living comfortably. And she’s scared right now, already being limited and thinking about getting a second job just to cover basics.

    On the economy front, too, today is Mayday and there was a national shut down called for truckers over gas prices. There is another one called for 5 days from now. They aren’t making $$ off hauls after they pay their gas & insurance. I’ve heard that there is a baker’s strike, too, because they don’t make much $$ after flour costs. It feels like the first in a long series of things to come, and I’ve got this feeling in my gut that things are going to be really bad.

  4. I suppose I fifth. God, this is scary. I keep trying to tell people this, but they just seem depressed and want to believe things will somehow equilibrate.

  5. As a 24 year old… I am pretty pessimistic about the way things are headed. I’m also fairly scared about it. I wanted to buy a house ($150k) but instead I am buying a trailer ($15k) and it disappoints me that it is the way I have to go right now… but I think it is the best option with the way things are going. And I make a decent amount for someone my age, I would say.

  6. Wait, wait. There’s absolutely nothing to indicate that the US is screwed. Nothing.

    There is, however, every indication that the US is screwed if it keeps doing the same things.

    Those are two very very different statements.

  7. I appreciate that Reich debunks the conservative shibboleth that feminism causes women to seek paying work.

    I don’t appreciate, however, how he sets up “Americans” as males who “send” the women off to the workforce in order to live beyond their (the men’s) means.

    Seems like it’s a way to *increase* the family’s means, no?

  8. RyanRutley, what we’ve been doing is like borrowing from a loan shark, and then borrowing again when we run out of cash, etc.

    Sooner or later, the “shark” expects to be paid – and a lot of interest goes with the principle amount. And if we can’t pay? We won’t enjoy what comes next.

    We’re in for an incredibly serious reckoning (think Great Britain after WWII). And it will absolutely not be pretty…

  9. zuzu, that bugged me, too. And the way it’s set up as if there’s something wrong with women working, and as if they should want to stay at home raising the kidlets if the man of the family just made enough.

    Like this: “But there’s a limit to how many mothers can maintain paying jobs. ”

    Well, yeah, since “mother” is still defined as “primary care giver first in line to sacrifice work for the kids” for the post part.

  10. One thing that has been bugging me for recent while:

    Women and minorities get less pay than white men in most jobs. In some industries, companies explicitly reach for women because the patriarchy insures their docility in the face of inadequate pay/other stuff. On the other hand, women and minorities have to pay the same large student loans as white men do…Given how unreasonably large student loans are for everyone now, and at least half the students are women and minorities, does it not become evident to policy-makers or industry people or finance people that you really couldn’t do this on a long term basis? That things would have to change to better pay or fewer loans or whatever?

    /end pet peeve

  11. Zuzu, you’re of course right about that. I have low expectations from Reich on gender; I’m just glad he didn’t buy the Conservative history. He also frames American implicitly as middle class.

  12. Ugh, I was in a meeting with my bosses concerning STD leave for an upcoming birth. I mentioned that more needs to be done for mothers and single mothers in terms of adequate and paid time off for the birth of a child. They of course disagreed, because I am not below the poverty level or in fact anywhere near it. They’re completely unaware that even IF my husband and I are making more than the median income for a two income household, that does not mean we’re well off. That does not mean we’re capable of taking the hit of unpaid leave, or even the hit of receiving a percentage of my pay while I am out of work for GIVING BIRTH.

    My husband and I make good money, but we don’t live in a fancy neighborhood. I’ve never purchased a brand new car. We still struggle to make ends meet every single month and I know we’re better off than many many Americans and American families.

    My bosses attitudes are a problem among many existing in this nation. It can’t be every MAN/WOMAN for his or her self. You have to stop and help people. The help has to come from people who are financially able to give it. But apparently those people could give a rats ass.

    Not sure what this rant had to do with anything in this post…except it seems to me the capable are very unwilling to provide viable help to keep this sucker afloat.

  13. Government aid is being aimed, mistakenly, at maintaining unsustainably high rates of personal consumption.

    People have been spending way beyond their means. Whatever happened to saving? In the late 1970s to early 1980s I remember my dad constantly worrying if he would make it through another layoff. I could be wrong, but from personal experience and reading the news, it seems that 25 years later this is the trend again in employment. It is terribly stressful and what is even worse is that today’s job market offers less than it did 25 years ago. That may be due to the saturation of degrees out there and loss of everything but service jobs.

    I have no clue about economics and this may sound apocalyptic, but I worry about another depression, not a recession.

  14. My cousin is having her fifth child this summer and even though i’m happy that shes doing what she really loves (having children) it really boggles my mind how she and her husband can support their family with just him working and her being a stay-at-home mom. AND they have debts from years and years ago that they are STILL trying to pay off.

    I can’t believe most americans don’t think that they are in a recession. If my mom wanted to move back to the states she’d be a millionaire because of all the capitol she’s built up abroad and the fact that the dollar is only worth peanuts now.

  15. I disagree, and the extended financial rally seems to put the conventional wisdom on the side of recovery. I don’t think that the economy and economic consumption were actually driven by people getting loans against their houses to go shopping.

    To the extent people are spending instead of saving, they’ll have to retire later or endure a lower standard of living in retirement. Many people will have insufficient means to fund their health care needs as they age.

  16. Mitchforth, if the Day Of Reckoning is not right around the corner, it would still be foolish to believe it isn’t ever coming.

    The US is big enough and has enough “financial mass” that it’s possible for the economy to take one or several upturns (and downturns) before the collapse. But the collapse is on its way.

    You can’t suck several trillion dollars from our creditors, throw them away in the sands of Iraq and think there will be no effect.

    You can’t operate the world’s largest “defense” department, spending which is the least economically beneficial of all, and expect that those trillions gone will have no effect.

    And you can run an economy based on the premise that only the Rich are worthy, and the rest of us proles are merely occupying space, and not expect drastic effects.

    But, hey. You and people like you voted them into office. We’re just reaping what you have sown…

  17. Ismone, that’s because I can either believe that I’ll survive this downturn and there will eventually be better times, or I can take a gun and end it right now.

    Believe me, I’m making financial decisions based on the assumption that things are going to be tight, that I may have to survive for years more on the same small amount I make right now, and make it stretch a lot farther. That I can deal with. But if it’s going to be a total collapse of society a la Parable of the Sower, well, I’d rather die a clean, quick death now than starve to death or be brutally murdered later.

    So yeah. Those are my options. Hope or suicide. Hope’s just barely winning right now.

  18. It’s pretty terrifying, as someone dangling on the edge of a four-year-degree, to contemplate entering the job market anytime soon. The American middle-class rite of passage into adulthood specifically coincides with shouldering massive amounts of debt. Going to a public university didn’t even make that big of a difference.

    This is only tangentially related, but did anyone catch this juxtaposition in the NYTimes’ Most Read articles this morning?

    Low Spending Is Taking Toll On Economy

    was right next to

    For Exxon Mobil, $10.9 Billion Profit Disappoints

    Hmm. So, according to the social luminaries at the NY Times, it’s OUR fault that the economy is tanking, because we aren’t spending enough!

  19. Caroline, I really hope you weren’t serious about suicide. Please don’t kill yourself.

  20. I don’t believe we’re in for collapse. But we could be in for a long rough ride: Japan’s lost decade, Britain’s twenty year slide.

  21. Abby, I’m serious about thinking it some days, although I’m not planning anything imminently. I’m not sure what the dark threats of “We’re so screwed” are supposed to accomplish, other than predict complete social collapse. Because yeah, the economy is in a bad place and getting worse. It’s possible I could end up bankrupt; it’s possible I could end up surviving on PB&J and dog food. I can live with those things as long as they are temporary. But I’m really, really scared of debtor’s prison, or hunger and homelessness without end.

    I just don’t think I could make it in a world of the Hobbesian state of nature, and I’m not sure it’s even worth trying. We have to get the social contract back — government functioning as it should. If we can do that, I have a lot of hope that things will get better. Posts like this one seem to be saying that it’s too late, there is no social contract, and there is therefore no hope.

  22. I’m making financial decisions based on the assumption that things are going to be tight, that I may have to survive for years more on the same small amount I make right now, and make it stretch a lot farther. That I can deal with. But if it’s going to be a total collapse of society a la Parable of the Sower, well, I’d rather die a clean, quick death now than starve to death or be brutally murdered later.

    I hear you on that one, Caroline. My husband is overseas right now, and he’s not as up on the news as he’d like to be. He has no idea how bad it’s really getting over here, and I don’t want to worry him, but at the same time, all I can do is lie awake at night and wonder what else I can do to stretch our budget. I can’t make him understand how bad it is, and what he’s coming home to, and part of me doesn’t want to.

  23. \crazy economist being crazy

    I can’t believe most americans don’t think that they are in a recession.

    Technically. We’re not in a recession. A recession is two or more successive quarters of zero or negative growth. If the most recent quarter numbers are correct at 0.6% growth, while horrible (and probably not representative since it is due partially to increases in inventories), we are still not in a recession.

    /end crazy economistness

  24. What Orodemniades said. A decline in real wages happened to saving. Predatory lenders happened to saving. I’m sure there are some profligates, human nature being what it is, but most people started spending on credit because they had to. And once you take on that kind of debt, with companies whose only objective is to fuck you, fuck you, fuck you out of every cent they can, it’s difficult to keep your head above water, let alone put away a nest egg. I have saved, and hopefully will save, but I’ve been extremely lucky in my lack of financial committments. I have friends who went through a few months of cash problems, had to put a few weeks’ worth of groceries on the card, and are still working off the debt three years later.

    Plus, there’s a certain point at which heavy stakes tend to reward profligacy (or at least pessimism): if you’re in your twenties, and already dealing with more debt than you see yourself paying off for a couple decades, why scrape all the time?

  25. The other thing to remember is that not all of the deep-hole borrowers are people who used to save and buy stuff–like Thomas said, some of them just used to be desperately poor. It’s not irresponsible to agree to credit in that situation; it just involves a different kind of vulnerability at the hands of very irresponsible people.

  26. Sorry, Caroline, I didn’t mean to depress you, it just seems that everyone is sort of aware that there is a problem, and the government doesn’t seem to be doing many things to make it better.

    But I’m not an economist, so I’m just, like you, doing the best I can and being smart.

    Eh, re state of nature, I don’t think it is going to go that far down. And if it does, dumb luck will determine the outcome more than anything else.

    But to echo what another poster said, please, please, don’t think about suicide, and get the help and support you need if you’re going through a difficult time.

    If things go to crap, I have a good working knowledge of edible plants, so you can be on my team. 🙂 I’m sure you have skills to contribute as well. Ismone

  27. I had a white-collar junior management type friend lose his job — his boss found out he was looking and fired him. He was out of work for nine months. It has been years; he’s in a great spot now making real money, but he’s still digging out of the debt.

  28. Ugh, I’m getting myself all set up to leave this country. I’ll be studying in Shanghai and Hong Kong, and hopefully will get an internship. And maybe I’ll just stay there.

  29. Whatever happened to saving?

    I remember moving out to California from Illinois in the late 1980s and getting a bank account. I asked which of their checking accounts offered interest, and she looked at me like I was speaking a foreign language. In Illinois, I got 3% on my checking account and 5% on my savings, but in California you were lucky to get 3% on your savings. And that was 20 years ago.

    When you’re getting 5% from your savings, why bother? Better to pour your money into getting a house that you can use like an ATM.

  30. Piny, it’s nothing to do with “predatory” lending, and everything to do with mortgage brokers getting the commissions for mortgages they don’t bear the risks on.

    The theory was that combining lots of mortgages into securities would spread around the risk of more dubious loans, but these borrowers defaulted at a higher rate than was expected.

    The borrowers were not victims in many cases. They knew when they put down more income than they were really making on the no-paperwork “liar’s loans” that they couldn’t afford the mortgage.

    Both the brokers and the borrowers were expecting the homes to appreciate sufficiently in value before the lower “teaser” rates expired that the borrowers could refinance the loans.

    When the home prices stopped rising, the borrowers were unable to tap them for additional credit, and when the buyers started defaulting, the lenders responded by tightening up credit, which further squeezed the housing market because potential buyers could not get credit.

  31. Maybe now people will finally realize that reliable, sustainable economic growth and prosperity can only be achieved through widespread, radical automation linked to a basic income guarantee; that wage slavery (= most jobs) is not just hideously backward and inefficient, but also morally wrong; that only rationally applied technology can truly set us free?

    Probably not. And so they will continue to be shorn and slaughtered like the sheep they are…

  32. God, this is scary. I keep trying to tell people this, but they just seem depressed and want to believe things will somehow equilibrate.

    Hell, I *want* to believe that too, but the intellectual residue of my economics degree will not permit it.

    I don’t anticipate a total collapse of society, but I do think Thomas’ predictions are pretty reasonable.

  33. The borrowers were not victims in many cases. They knew when they put down more income than they were really making on the no-paperwork “liar’s loans” that they couldn’t afford the mortgage.

    You might want to read the stories about this a little more closely. People were going into Wells Fargo and only being offered subprime loans even though they qualified for prime ones. Why? Because Wells Fargo made more money up front off the subprime loans.

    This is what happens when you create a marketplace with no consumer protections: companies run wild and ruin themselves with bad decisions, and the rest of us end up paying to bail them out.

  34. This is what happens when you create a marketplace with no consumer protections: companies run wild and ruin themselves with bad decisions, and the rest of us end up paying to bail them out.

    Technically there are some consumer protections in this industry…they just aren’t enforced well. Which is why the Treasury proposal is so damn stupid. The SEC may not be the model of awesomeness in government regulation, but they do a great deal. To hand all market regulation over to the very entity who created this debacle is by far the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard.

  35. “Technically there are some consumer protections in this industry…they just aren’t enforced well.”

    …which is by design. The financial barons have chaffed under regulations imposed since the Great Depression, and have sought every means available to eliminate or subvert them.

    When the Bushites came into office, there were all kinds of laws that they wanted to eliminate but couldn’t actually directly revoke. So the next best thing (maybe even better – to them) was to pack agencies in charge of enforcing laws they didn’t like with hacks and puppets to make sure the laws would not be enforced.

    Life in a time of NeoCons…

  36. You might want to read the stories about this a little more closely. People were going into Wells Fargo and only being offered subprime loans even though they qualified for prime ones. Why? Because Wells Fargo made more money up front off the subprime loans.

    This is what happens when you create a marketplace with no consumer protections: companies run wild and ruin themselves with bad decisions, and the rest of us end up paying to bail them out.

    No, this is just incorrect. “Prime and “subprime” refers to the credit of the borrower. A subprime loan is any loan given to a borrower with subprime credit. If they were given higher interest rates than they qualified for, they should have shopped around to different mortgage brokers.

    What they most likely did was buy a house that was beyond their means, and obtained financing on it by fudging their stated income on loans that didn’t require verification of that level of income. A whole bunch of people were getting houses they couldn’t afford, and the ability of people to get more credit than they could afford allowed prices of housing to rise above the means of people living in the houses. That is the bubble.

    Some people have been forecasting prime loan defaults because many of these are also mortgages with “teaser” rates that reset beyond the borrowers’ ability to pay, and also because many people who have bought houses with low or no down payments in the last couple of years have had all their equity wiped out by the decline in prices, and they may not want to keep paying on a mortgage that is now worth more than the collateral.

    I’m sure some unscrupulous brokers set some confused or uneducated people in some bad loans, but the lenders’ wrong was to make credit available to people who should not have been given credit, and to make more credit available to borrowers than they should have been given, on the assumption that endlessly rising home prices would cover the risk by creating equity that the borrowers could use to refinance before the expiration of the teaser rate.

  37. …which is by design.

    Absolutely. Jackasses undermine the system and then blame the regulators.

  38. Mitchforth, no. According to Wikipedia, citing the Wall Street Journal: “While often defined or defended as lending to borrowers with compromised credit histories, the Wall Street Journal reported in 2006, 61% of all borrowers receiving subprime loans had credit scores high enough to qualify for prime conventional loans”

    Yes, subprime is supposed to refer to loans to borrowers who are less than perfect, but subprime loans have, according to the Wall Street Journal, those loans were going to many people who should have been getting prime loan terms.

    Subprime Debacle Traps Even Very Credit-Worthy

  39. That article also clarifies that “subprime” does not simply refer to low credit scores of borrowers. They are simply more risky loans, and it could be for a variety of reasons.

  40. Mitchforth, are you actually paid to be a shill for corporate America, or do you volunteer?

    The reason that loans backed by crap were made is that there was a secondary market for them. They could be securitized at all only because they could be packaged into complex arrangements of strips that could be argued to have hedge risks using regional diversity; so that strips of crap were matched with strips of similar crap from different piles. But the models that allowed so much of this crap to get investment-grade ratings presumed no short-term deviation from the historic home-price growth rates. A stagnation, let alone a decline, in nationwide home sales, would throw defaults into the A ranges. The chain of irresponsible lending did not start and end with homeowners and some person at a desk in a branch. It goes all the way up the the major banks that wrote and sold the CDOs and CDO-squared securities that were tailor-made to model as very safe while giving off high returns, but to common-sense scrutiny were highly sensitive to a change in home prices. That’s why the crisis cost Stanley O’Neil and Chuck Prince their jobs. It’s not as if they didn’t do anything wrong.

    FWIW, I started joking about hedging my home equity in 2005.

  41. It’s not as if they didn’t do anything wrong.

    Thomas: they didn’t do anything “wrong” in the sense that it wasn’t a scam like some of the Internet and telecom ipos, where ibankers sold worthless companies to the general public at outrageously inflated prices.

    Here, the lender, ibankers, and hedge funds all lost a lot of money. After all, if you lend someone money and they don’t pay you back, who gets hurt the most?

    the brokers did ok but they make doctor and lawyer $$, not ibanker league. some borrowers got scammed others did the scamming (no doc loans). you’re right, like the long therm capital management fiasco, the models are at fault, but this wasn’t a classic case of predatory lending since the predators got eaten alive.

  42. “Mitchforth, are you actually paid to be a shill for corporate America, or do you volunteer?”

    He’s a well known “libertarian”/Reichwing-apologist/troll over at Pandagon. If you figure out what drives him to be such a dick, please let us all know…

  43. this wasn’t a classic case of predatory lending since the predators got eaten alive.

    What do you mean, “eaten alive”? They’re getting handouts of taxpayer money to keep them afloat. All that’s happening is that the megabanks like Bank of America are buying the smaller guys like Countrywide.

    As usual, they’ve privatized the gains and socialized the losses. If they make money, they scream about having to pay taxes, but they sure come running to Uncle Sam with a sob story if they fuck themselves over and need the rest of us to bail them out.

  44. What do you mean, “eaten alive”?

    well look at the citi stock price. or, a bit off the radar for the mainstream press, the hedge funds left holding the bag on these securities. they’ve taken huge losses and more than a few have gone under. or the former ceo of bear sterns, jimmy cayne, once a billionaire, now worth only 10’s of millions. if he was a scam artist, he wasn’t very good at it.

    They’re getting handouts of taxpayer money to keep them afloat.

    Can we stop referring to corporate america as one entity? this is one of the the most dynamic economies in the world. i suppose you mean bear shareholders. the government insured deal was done at a price that a bankruptcy proceeding would have occurred (arguably), for the obvious reason that the fed didn’t want to bail our bear. the beneficiary of this was jpmorgan, so you would have a case there, to be fair.

    As usual, they’ve privatized the gains and socialized the losses

    well, at least you’re admitting they took losses. look, you’re trying to fit this scandal into a narrative, like ideologues do. first it was corporate america screwing the little guy. there’s some truth lurking in that but to view it purely thru this paradigm is very misleading, for the obvious reason that the screwers got their clocks cleaned, which you now admit.

    the other narrative is that the govt will bail them out. again, there is some truth to this but there are also coutertruths, like reliance technologies ( a giant hedge fund) taking huge losses or aqr capital withdrawing its ipo. the people who lost the most $$ were not the ibankers or even the subprime banks themselves (b/c as thomas pointed out, the loans where repackeged and sold on the the secondary market) or most borrowers obviously (since it isn’t their money to lose) but these relatively small unknown hedge funds which is where the real money lies on wall street these days.

    this is not say there isn’t truth in what you’re saying, just that is a half-truth, like gerry ferraros weird statements about obama 😉

  45. first it was corporate america screwing the little guy. there’s some truth lurking in that but to view it purely thru this paradigm is very misleading, for the obvious reason that the screwers got their clocks cleaned, which you now admit.

    Er, no. What I’m “admitting” is exactly what I said: the big guys make mistakes that the little guys end up paying for. Wall Street will reshuffle (as they’ve already started doing with the Bear Stearns and Countrywide acquisitions) and then hold out their hands for taxpayer money. It has happened before (we can’t let the savings and loans fail) multiple times (we can’t let the airlines fail!) and it will happen again. You’re looking at the very beginning of the cycle and trying to convince us that maybe this time Lucy won’t pull the football away. Anything short of another financial collapse like the Great Depression will see the cycle reset and start over again, with only taxpayers being the true losers.

  46. Mnemosyne:

    i don’t necessarily disagree with what you say, but your trying to pigeonhole a huge story into one narrative: “the big guys make mistakes that the little guys end up paying for.”

    sure that’s happened before, its also not happened before…with once dominant banks like drexel and kidder going under. the very example you give, bear sterns, does not quite fit the “bail out” narrative, as the company was sold at a bankruptcy auction price. a lot of bankers at bear, which was like 30% employee owned, lost the bulk of their life savings.

    i’m sure you don’t feel sorry for jimmy cayne, who worked his whole life at bear to accumulate stock worth over a billion dollars, only to see it disappear overnight. the fed bailout amounted to him selling his stock at a bankruptcy price. the point is if he where a scam artist he would’ve sold his stock prior to when the shit hit the fan, like the enron guys did. but he was not a scam artist, rather he was just a fool, and the old saying came true again: a fool and his money…

  47. The need for ever-increasing numbers of caregivers entering the labor force, along with more borrowing, etc, seems to coincide with the decline in power of the labor movement. People get paid less because they have no power to balance against the corporate interests (which have gov’t on their side) and on to this slippery slope we step.

    Two words for you people: Labor Unions. Get your offices organized and get some leverage to balance against those who think that the top 5% aren’t yet rich enough.

    Also, a very good article at Alternet that discusses how we never really left the recession of 2001. When you look at the “growth” of the GDP over the last 7 years, you find that it is actually less than the rate of gov’t and personal debt over the same time frame. The economy hasn’t grown for the better part of a decade!

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