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Punishment

Jill

unwed mother

Word. Obama at a town hall meeting:

“When it comes specifically to HIV/AIDS, the most important prevention is education, which should include — which should include abstinence education and teaching the children — teaching children, you know, that sex is not something casual. But it should also include — it should also include other, you know, information about contraception because, look, I’ve got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby. I don’t want them punished with an STD at the age of 16. You know, so it doesn’t make sense to not give them information.”

Emphasis mine.

A baby shouldn’t be a punishment — but that’s exactly what babies become when you force pregnancy on someone. The “pro-life” movement very much uses forced pregnancy as a slut-punishing tool, placing children squarely in the category of “punishment” rather than “joy.” Yet somehow they manage to argue that they’re the ones who actually care about children — even as they cut off children’s health care; even as 100 percent of the worst legislators of children are “pro-life;” even as they think babies should be physically forced on women instead of joyfully and openly wanted.

Good on Obama for calling that out, however quietly.

40 thoughts on Punishment

  1. I know the right wing coerced pregnancy set is latching onto this with an “Obama sees precious, precious babies as punishment” meme.
    But I’m personally kind of disturbed by his readiness with the notion of teen pregnancy and STDs as punishment for failing to exercise “moral values.” Am I alone on that?

  3. But I’m personally kind of disturbed by his readiness with the notion of teen pregnancy and STDs as punishment for failing to exercise “moral values.” Am I alone on that?

    Yeah I agree with you. I hate when Democrats try to pander to conservatives.

  5. I didn’t take it that way at all. I think it’s simply speaking to how the Christian right views it: as a punishment. He’s rejecting the idea of punishment, and while I wish he’d be a bit more sex-positive, political reality curtails just how far he can go with that.

  6. At first I took it the wrong way as well, but the key word is DOESN’T.

    Obama DOESN’T agree with the point of view that babies and STDs are punishments for women who have failed to live up to the expectations of their parents, religion, etc.

    He is most definitely NOT pandering to conservatives.

  7. Even pro-lifers don’t view it as a punishment. I was over at Jill Stanek’s blog and they’re all, “Why do pro-choicers view having children as a punishment? Children are a joy and a blessing to have!!”

    Something’s getting lost in translation, I think.

  8. A “joy and a blessing” they want to force on women and girls who don’t want them.
    Obviously the pro-lifers don’t call children punishment outright, but if you try to get through to them that people make mistakes and sometimes want to terminate unintended pregnancies, then being pregnant is the screwin’ you get for the screwin’ you got.

  9. the antis think that babies are a joy and a blessing that you deserve if you have the audacity to have sex. one of the biggest anti choice arguments i get, even from Stanek’s ignorant bunch is that you “shouldn’t do the crime if you can’t do the time”. though, in fairness, i refrained from torturing myself by reading her nonsense blog when she started yammering about the chinese eating babies.

  10. No matter if your are pro life or pro choice, the birth of a child should not be described as punishment. I am anti-abortion, but am not religious. I believe that people should reject promiscuity, because it leads to abortion, which only leads to more promiscuity, because an unborn child has lost its value, and can be easily disposed of by a selfish person. Pro choicers cant deny that women who have abortions, are more like to have multiple abortion due to irresponsibilty. many of these women carry deep emotional scars on their concience, and suffer from mental disorders linked to guilt. Abortion is not the neatly wrapped little “second chance” that naive liberals would like to imagine it is. The liberal utopian pipe dream doesnt exist, and these social experiments have failed and destroyed any moral fiber that once was the glue of this American Republic.

  11. Obama was not making a prepared speech on unwanted pregnancies.
    These were off-the-cuff remarks in answer to a question.
    I would hold off on parsing evry word and syllable.

    The debate between pro-lifers, who elevate a fertilized egg to superstatus over existing human beings, and feminists, who concentrate on the wellfare of the mother, the fate of an unwanted baby is totally forgotten. To a greater or lesser extent, the baby is just a pawn in political arguments.

    I’ve never known conservative ideologues to take responsibility for the consequences of their policies, so I’m not surprised that their interest begins and ends with the egg-to-baby period. I am surprised at feminists, though, for also holding a very narrow focus. Apparently, the ‘punishment’ women may suffer obscures interest in the far greated punishment unwanted children may suffer.

    Orphanages and foster care systems can seldom undo the damage done by knowing you were unwanted. Even animal studies corroborate the assertion that the lack of a nurturing mother impedes development and produces psychological scars.
    The fate of unwanted babies is a major argument for doing everything possible to prevent unwanted pregnancies and for not forcing motherhoosd on unwilling women.
    I’m continually disappointed that both sides ignore this issue.

  12. What kind of a society have we become when we decide that someone else is unwanted?

    Catarina, babies whose parents don’t want them are not a modern phenomenon, nor an American one. A Basque woman of my acquaintance tells me that the very Catholic Basques used to go so far as to christen their babies “Zigor”, which means “punishment”. Lovely!

  13. On one had I kind of think “fair play to obama for not being in denial that his kids will be sexually active at some point in their lives”. However, on the other hand, as someone who was the result of a teenage pregnancy, I deeply resent the view that I, on whatever level, was/am some kind of ‘punishment’ inflicted on my parents for their actions, which Obama sees as some kind of ‘moral failure’.

    Urgh. This kind of thing annoys me.

  14. Snort. Yeah, they always call babies joys and blessings until liberals propose policy that actually helps those little blessings grow up healthy and well-educated regardless of the financial or marital situation of the mother/parents.

  15. I can’t remember who it was, I think it was Molly Ivins, who once said that for conservatives, “Life begins at conception and ends at birth.”

  16. Oh my gosh, I saw this story on another blog under the headline “Obama calls his daughters a punishment and compares them to STDs.” My head almost exploded. Good for Obama for sticking that in there though.

  17. Eh, I still have a problem with the “mistake” language. Is it that hard to say “if they do decide to have sex” or “if they decide to have sex or if, god forbid, they are raped.” People don’t get punished for mistakes, people get punished for choices. I think Obama’s framing actually muddles it because he’s injecting the “liberal” idea of teen sex as an understandable mistake, but then adopting “conservative” language with respect to punishment. I think the whole thing would make more sense if he used the phrasing I suggested above, precisely because the right-wing arguments are framed as – if you choose to have sex, you deserve the consequences.

  18. What kind of a society have we become when we decide that someone else is unwanted?

    uh, the same society we’ve always been…

  19. No shit, FashioanlyEvil.

    Look at the parents who abuse their kids, physically or emotionally, especially as infants and toddlers. In the back of their minds, they don’t want these kids or else they would never start abusing them!

    I was born 9 months after my parents got married; the “joke” in the family was that I was the answer to their first argument- 19 yr old Mom saying on the honeymoon that she could get pregnant (ie, please stop and use protection as they had done when engaged) and 24 yr old Dad saying oh no she couldn’t (ie, I don’t wanna stop now and strap on a condom- we’re MARRIED and I don’t HAVE to!!).

    Essentially same scenario with my sister- they “joked” forever how she was conceived as they made up after an argument 2 years later. Idiots… and Dad told me once that if he could have gone back, he wouldn’t have had kids at all.

    But where we were both conceived on the “right side” (ie, after the wedding), they could hold up their heads among their family and friends. There wasn’t any “shame”- just rock stupidity.

    We were both emotionally abused by that man as he got drunk and controlled us and Mom (she wasn’t even “allowed” to get a driver’s license)- as soon as we could, my sister and I left, as fast and as far as we could.

    And sure enough, my dad sneered and looked down his nose at me (“I didn’t raise my daughters to live in sin!“) when I decided to put myself on birth control, live with 2 boyfriends, eventually marrying the second one, and wait until I was 30 to have my first child.

  20. I can’t remember who it was, I think it was Molly Ivins, who once said that for conservatives, “Life begins at conception and ends at birth.”

    And begins again when the person in question becomes terminally, agonizingly ill or enters a vegetative coma.

  21. Okay, I’ll be honest. I don’t like the way he said it. It gets me in a bunch.

    But his message was true. To keep our kids safe (ourselves safe) abstinence is the only sure way, contraception is the only “real” way. I just would have said it differently.

    Now what’s the plan for when all that fails?

  22. Pro choicers cant deny that women who have abortions, are more like to have multiple abortion

    Ok, I’ll admit that nylander has got me there: I’ve never heard of a woman having a second abortion unless she had had a first abortion earlier.

    many of these women carry deep emotional scars on their concience, and suffer from mental disorders linked to guilt.

    This statement, however, is much more questionable. A recent publication found that, when confounding variables were taken into account, the association between past abortion and depression was marginal to non-existent. A stronger (though still weak) association was seen between depression and multiple (2+) births and a very strong correlation was seen between depression and partner violence. If you really care about preventing mental illness in women, concentrate on decreasing their risk of partner violence and maybe their risk of multiple childbirths at a young age. Abortion is a minor risk, if it is a risk at all.

  24. When I heard what he said, I wanted to stand up and cheer. It did not even OCCUR to me that Obama was endorsing the idea that STDs and unwanted pregnancies should be thought of as punishments; I thought he was outspokenly pointing out that the right DOES see them that way and rejecting their so-called morality. I thought it was brave, outspoken, unplanned, and heartfelt, and it increased my admiration for him.

  25. I believe that people should reject promiscuity, because it leads to abortion, which only leads to more promiscuity, because an unborn child has lost its value, and can be easily disposed of by a selfish person. Pro choicers cant deny that women who have abortions, are more like to have multiple abortion due to irresponsibilty. many of these women carry deep emotional scars on their concience, and suffer from mental disorders linked to guilt.

    There’s also a strong link between having given birth and suffering from post-partum depression or psychosis. And women who suffer from post-partum psychosis and depression actually do experience serious depression, guilt, emotional scarring, and significant mental distress. The solution isn’t outlawing birth, it’s treating depression.

    Abortion is not the neatly wrapped little “second chance” that naive liberals would like to imagine it is. The liberal utopian pipe dream doesnt exist, and these social experiments have failed and destroyed any moral fiber that once was the glue of this American Republic.

    Show me where most liberals are out there saying that it’s a neatly wrapped “second chance”, and I’ll agree that those liberals are naive. On the other hand, liberal policies are just about the only thing holding this nation together as people like this administration continue to do everything in their power to crush the great things underfoot. Access to education, health coverage for all people, access to sexual justice and the ability to make informed choices in all aspects of sexual health, public transportation, concern for our environmental footprint… yeah, I can see how those things really tear at the moral fiber of the nation. We wouldn’t want people to think that we were a nation that actually cares for our citizens or anything.

  26. Makes me glad I voted for him. I totally agree with Betsy.

    Pro choicers cant deny that women who have abortions, are more like to have multiple abortion

    Ok, I’ll admit that nylander has got me there: I’ve never heard of a woman having a second abortion unless she had had a first abortion earlier.

    LooooooL I laughed so hard at this my kitty dug her claws in my leg. It would be very hard to get a second abortion if you’ve never had a first. *gigglefit* Not sure if it was meant to inspire humor or not.

  27. I think Emily is absolutely right. I appreciate some of you are over the moon he’s openly in favour of education about contraception, but you’re missing the other stuff that’s in there. He’s also openly saying some very nasty and revanchist things: casual sex is wrong, abstinence should be encouraged, having sex which isn’t properly sanctioned by his ethical code is a “mistake”, people should be taught “values and morals” so they can avoid this. Fuck him.

  28. Not sure if it was meant to inspire humor or not.

    Yep, it was. Could have been phrased better if there was doubt…

  29. Good on Obama for calling that out, however quietly.

    And good on Feministe for consistency in giving credit where it’s due, an opening up the requisite cans of whoop-ass where that’s due.

  30. uh, the same society we’ve always been…

    the grad school nerd in me wants to point out that there’s an interesting book on this (I haven’t read it myself): google “abandonment of children in western europe”

  31. I’m surprised at the level of parsing of this statement; Obama was clearly speaking relatively off-the-cuff. I’m not sure how telling the statement is outside his overall message that sex ed shouldn’t be abstinence only. Giving him credit for saying “punishment” or criticizing him for saying “mistake” seems to me to be reading too much into it.

  32. He’s also openly saying some very nasty and revanchist things: casual sex is wrong, abstinence should be encouraged, having sex which isn’t properly sanctioned by his ethical code is a “mistake”, people should be taught “values and morals” so they can avoid this. Fuck him.

    Yes, he is. It’s also the mainstream view in this country. He doesn’t seem to be all that far out of the mainstream as far as him own ideas go, and even if he was, he’d get skewered if he actually said that sex is wonderful and good and everyone who wants to, including teenagers, should be having it.

    You and I (and most commenters on liberal, feminist blogs) might think so and might wish for a politician who has the ovaries/balls/spine to actually say so in public, but most of the country, and even most democrats, wouldn’t stand for that. And as he’s running for president of the entire country, he’s not going to shoot himself in the foot on that one.

  33. ks – I’m not suggesting that Obama or other politicians should put forward the view that recreational sex is a good idea as a campaign strategy. An alternative would be for him to just shut up, rather than start spouting off about how his ethics should be rammed down everyone else’s throats. He doesn’t have to make a forced choice between saying “sex is wrong” and “hey kids, sex is fun”. He could have remained neutral – said nothing – and advocated contraception without heaping on the moralism and saying we’re all terrible sinners. That his first instinct was to start getting all puritanical shows what a nasty religious scumbag he is.

  34. But where we were both conceived on the “right side” (ie, after the wedding), they could hold up their heads among their family and friends. There wasn’t any “shame”- just rock stupidity.

    I read this book “The Girls Who Went Away be Ann Fessler”. This book was full of stories of unwed pregnant girls and women who were sent away for the crime of getting pregnant. Some of the stories talked about how the hospital staff treated them like shit while they were in labor (some were refused medication). A few of them got a completely different treatment a couple of years later when they were back in the delivery room, but married.

    “Children are a joy and blessing” my ass. If you have those children out of wedlock, these people will be sure to frequently make you feel quite the opposite.

  35. as someone who was the result of a teenage pregnancy, I deeply resent the view that I, on whatever level, was/am some kind of ‘punishment’ inflicted on my parents for their actions, which Obama sees as some kind of ‘moral failure’.

    Keep in mind that Obama is also the result of an unplanned teenage pregnancy.

  36. He could have remained neutral – said nothing – and advocated contraception without heaping on the moralism and saying we’re all terrible sinners. That his first instinct was to start getting all puritanical shows what a nasty religious scumbag he is.

    He could have. And his very devoutness and willingness to pander to the religious is one of the reasons that I’m not a giant Obama fan (I like him well enough and I’ll vote for him in the fall, but he definitely isn’t my first choice). But he is a religious person, or at least, he plays one on tv, and so he does believe that. And let’s face it, he knows his audience well.

    I’m not saying that I like his answer all that well, but it is better than I would have hoped from a mainstream presidential candidate.

  37. I also think it’s important to remember that Obama was talking about how he’s talking about sex to his 9 and 6 year old daughters. I don’t see anything wrong telling a six year old that sex is something for married people (if you include gay and lesbian couples as married), and then complicating that when the kid get to be a teenager (along the lines of “Well, sex should at least be with someone you can trust…” or whatever).

  38. I agree with CV about the level of parsing of these statements. I saw the speech in its context, which was about sex education. So IN CONTEXT, I can only assume he is talking about teenagers–not grown up women. And in that context, yes, if I got pregnant at age 16, I would SURELY have viewed that as a “mistake” (sorry all you babies-are-wonderful people) and would surely feel “punished,” as I also would have if I had contracted an STD! I don’t think there’s a huge majority of teenage girls that would see it otherwise. (Oh and by the way, he said “getting pregnant”, not “having a baby”. Surely we could all agree that having an unwanted pregnancy would be a very hard situation for a young girl to deal with! Or do we have to operate under the delusion that no pregnancies are “unwanted” too?

    And while he wasn’t even discussing abortion–I can’t help but think we will NEVER solve this abortion disagreement if there are still people around that don’t understand some pregnancies are, in fact, unwanted!

  39. I’m old enough to remember when abortion was opposed because pregnancy was supposed to be the punishment for girls who had pre-marital sex. It was only after the pill was introduced and abortion became legal that Conservatives hit on a new, possibly the first, way to re-frame the issue: pro-life.

    Prior to the late 60s or 70s, single women who got pregnant were sent away to have their babies in secret, and the babies were generally given up for adoption. You can see this in movies (English & Spanish) of the period.

    Today, girls are encouraged to keep their babies. (In Latin America, based on the TV I’ve seen, a woman who gives up her baby for adoption is as or more evil than the woman who aborts.) It no longer matters who the father is or whether the sexual act was consensual. (I remember when you were supposed to choose a mate with care because the father of your future children was importatn)

    I must admit that I am a bit surprised that a man of Obama’s age would use that term, but I do not think it inaccurate.

    It is probably not healthy for young girls to get pregnant and, given the lack of universal health care and social services in the U.S. (an awful lot of pro-lifers seem to care about babies only before they are born), both mother and child suffer more often than not.

  40. Everyone’s argument here is ridiculous! None of you would be able to have this conversation if your mother wasn’t “ready” to have a child and decided to have an abortion. The thing that should be talked about more in conversations like this is the unborn child. What’s more important, post-partum depression or giving life a chance? I’m a staunch conservative and I never believed that a child is a punishment for having sex. It’s all about being responsible for the actions you take. When you get drunk and get behind the wheel of a car there’s a chance you could get in an accident and kill someone else. Just because getting drunk can be fun at times doesn’t make the end result any better. Just like having sex is fun but it doesn’t mean that having an abortion is ok. We need to become more responsible as human beings and stop being so selfish.

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