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Kneecapping

Spot the problems here:

l just spoke with a Democratic Party official,* who asked for anonymity so as to speak candidly, who said we in the media are all missing the point of this Democratic fight.

The delegate math is difficult for Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-NY, the official said. But it’s not a question of CAN she achieve it. Of course she can, the official said.

The question is — what will Clinton have to do in order to achieve it?

What will she have to do to Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois, in order to eke out her improbable victory?

She will have to “break his back,” the official said. She will have to destroy Obama, make Obama completely unacceptable.

“Her securing the nomination is certainly possible – but it will require exercising the ‘Tonya Harding option.'” the official said. “Is that really what we Democrats want?”

The Tonya Harding Option — the first time I’ve heard it put that way.**

It implies that Clinton is so set on ensuring that Obama doesn’t get the nomination, not only is she willing to take extra-ruthless steps, but in the end neither she nor Obama will win the gold.

* When I first looked at this story this afternoon, it said that it was a “DNC official.” As in, the people overseeing the primary. Indeed, in the URL, you can see the DNC official reference. But at some point, it changed (though Jake Tapper didn’t correct the story, he just changed it without indicating the change. Bad practice there, Jake). Did Tapper get it wrong? Or did the DNC official ask that the reference be walked back so it looked like just some random party official rather than someone who is overseeing the very process under discussion?

But whether it’s a DNC official or a Party official [ETA: ** or an Obama official; apparently, Obama himself is the originator of the “Tonya Harding” formulation], there are many, many things wrong with this story.

There’s the “You guys are missing this!!!” angle. That’s a sure sign that someone’s pushing a new narrative for the campaign. And without attribution, it’s hard to tell who’s behind it. Is this someone from the Obama camp? Or someone from the DNC with their thumb on the scale? Whoever it is, they know that the press loves a narrative, and they’re more than willing to be spoon-fed.

Next, the idea that the only way that Clinton can win (and at least this person acknowledges that she can, in fact, win) is to destroy Obama and make him unelectable in the general election. Now, I’ve long suspected that Clinton would get blamed for a Dem loss in the fall, regardless of who the nominee is. Now, it’s apparent that the idea is getting “put out there,” going from Aravosis to Tweety to this DNC/Democratic Party official who plants the idea with Tapper. And as we know, once something is “out there,” then it’s fair game. It must be true!

There are several logical problems with this idea. First and foremost, if Obama’s inevitable, if he’s the clear winner, why should he worry about what Clinton will do to him? (This, incidentally, is the weirdest part of the way his campaign has been behaving lately, with all the going negative by announcing a massive character attack on Clinton at the same time they accuse her of taking the “low road” — he’s not acting like a front-runner. Front-runners don’t go negative, because they don’t have to. They’re front-runners!)

Second, this narrative does not credit the idea that she could win simply because she persuades more people to vote for her, either in the remaining states or during a floor fight.

Third, he could fuck up between now and the convention. He wouldn’t be the first candidate to start strong and finish weak; sometimes, your opponent doesn’t have to do anything while you shoot yourself in the foot.

Fourth, there are 10 more states to vote yet, and Obama could do well enough that he beats Clinton fair and square, and she could withdraw then.

However, the biggest problem with this whole idea is the misogyny. There are a couple of overarching themes here: Clinton is ambitious, power-mad, ready to destroy Obama and the party as well, and she just won’t get out of the way of the rising star. It’s a very easy narrative, one that’s readily spooned down by a misogynistic press, which hates women. Women who are ambitious, who fight for what they want, who don’t back down, are tarred as shrews, ballbusters, bitches. It’s no great secret that this has long been used to discredit Hillary Clinton.

Also: Tonya Harding? Seriously? For one thing, can you imagine the outcry if a party official said the same things about Obama, but called it the “O.J. Simpson Option?” But in the media, racism (or mere accusations of racism, however debunked or unfounded) draws howls of outrage, while misogyny just draws a good chuckle among the boys. (Not to mention, Nancy Kerrigan made a full recovery before the Olympics and lost because Baiul was just better.)

But here’s the part that’s puzzling me: Assuming that Tapper didn’t get it wrong in the first version, and this *was* a DNC official, what does that tell us?

It means the DNC has its thumb on the scale. And why would that be? To cover its own ass.

As much as I’ve been irritated by Obama *supporters* calling on Clinton to drop out, the Obama *campaign* has been pretty quiet about it after she won Texas and Ohio. They were beating the drums pretty hard for her to drop out if she lost those two, and that’s their job, but once she won them, they pretty much stopped. And she’s going into Pennsylvania with a pretty good lead, anywhere from 10-20 points, depending on the poll. So why are we getting a *DNC* official (or a *party* official) planting the idea that she should just drop out because otherwise she’ll destroy the party?

Michigan and Florida.

The DNC really screwed the pooch on that one. I’m not really interested in rehashing everything that went on, or who knew what when, or which candidates “agreed” to the stripping of delegates (because, for the umpteenth time, the *candidates* don’t have the power to agree or not agree; that’s all up to the DNC, which can also *change its own decision*). However, the DNC *did* decide to forgo the standard penalty for violating the timing rules — stripping half the delegates from any state that did so — and went nuclear.

When they made this decision, they had a candidate — Clinton — who seemed inevitable, so they probably figured it didn’t matter. And then there were the withdrawals from the Michigan ballot — again, when Clinton seemed to be the clear winner but before a single vote was cast — and then suddenly, the picture changed. Obama seemed invincible. So it was supposed to be over by Super Tuesday, except it wasn’t. And then Texas and Ohio were supposed to decide the matter, except where they didn’t.

And then there were the frantic negotiations for re-votes, which the DNC seemed to be dragging its feet on, deferring to the campaigns for some odd reason (they don’t have to). The DNC is not taking leadership on the issue, and the chances for a revote look dead because there isn’t enough time to do anything before the deadline in June.

And voters in Michigan and Florida, both important states to win in November, are PISSED.

So what’s the DNC to do? They don’t have a clear winner, since Obama hasn’t managed to finish Hillary off, and there’s no way he gets the magic number of pledged delegates by June 7 to avoid a floor fight. If there had been a clear winner, the party (or the clear winner, since the nominee can seat any prodigal delegates) could magnanimously welcome a properly chastened Michigan and Florida back in the fold, having taught them a lesson about trying to move up on the calendar.

But then there’s the Hillary Problem. They just can’t be all magnanimous if she insists on still being a competitor. So now they’re ratcheting up the pressure for her to just step aside and fix *their* problem for them (how novel! Making a mess and then asking a woman to come in and clean it up!). Here’s the problem with that: Hillary Clinton would be absolutely insane to bow to party pressure when she’s heading into a race in which she has a double-digit advantage, and Obama would be insane to pressure her to do so:

I also think it would be bad for Clinton to drop out when she holds an average lead of 16% in the upcoming, major primary of Pennsylvania. Momentum in the general election is often determined by momentum in the primary campaign, and as such it is essential that Obama is not seen as “backing in” to the nomination. For example, in 1984, Mondale lost eight of the last nine primaries, including California, providing him with serious negative momentum for the general election. Also, in our own primary campaign, we have regularly seen the candidate with momentum in Democratic primaries perform better against McCain in the general election. Over the summer, when she was rising in Democratic polls, Clinton performed best against Republicans in general election matchups. During February, when Obama was on a huge roll, he performed about 5% better than Clinton against McCain. Now that no one seems to have clear momentum in the nomination campaign, the two candidates perform about the same against McCain. Clinton needs to exit only after an Obama victory, and when there are no remaining possibilities of future big wins for Clinton.

Chris Bowers lays out several scenarios in which Obama could wrap up the nomination by the end of May, thus defeating Clinton fairly and legitimately rather than just steamrollering over her and being appointed by party officials trying to find someone to sacrifice for their own fuckups.

And it’s important to keep in mind that Clinton isn’t staying in this as a spoiler, or because she wants to destroy Obama or tear apart the party; she’s staying in because the voters keep voting for her and she keeps winning primaries, and thus, she still has a path to the nomination. As long as she still has a path to the nomination, any pressure on her to drop out to make room for Obama smacks of misogyny, of a male-dominated party establishment pushing the woman aside to make room for the man,*** and will anger women who’ve been asked to step aside for men all their lives. It also, as Liss explains, actually makes it harder for her to make an exit:

Re: Clinton dropping out, the irony is that the more misogynist attacks (as in the post below) are used against her, the harder it is going to be for her to drop out with dignity and without looking like she caved under the pressure of misogyny and to the will of its purveyors.

The people who want her to drop out would be wise to STFU instead of going after her full-throttle, because she is, of course, keenly aware of the weight she is carrying as the first viable female candidate, and if she appears to have given up without a fight, that’s got problems all its own.

Everyone who’s going on about how she wants to ZOMG DESTROY THE PARTY!!!11! don’t seem to understand that, while there may be “good reasons” for her to drop out, there are also “good reasons” for her to stay and fight until the bitter end, which are separate from winning the nomination.

During the whole Edwards-Donohue fiasco, when I eventually had to resign for personal security reasons, I got some of the nastiest emails I’ve ever gotten from progressives who told me I’d let down “the Left” by caving in to Donohue, O’Reilly, et. al.

And I was some dumbass nobody. Imagine the pressure Hillary is under to not appear to cave to misogynist attacks or look “weak” by quitting if she doesn’t have to.

And, btw, Obama would be under the exact same pressures if the situation were reversed; that’s the burden of “going first.” And, yes, I would defend his right to stay in to the bitter end, too — because I’ve felt that shit firsthand, and it is incredibly complicated and difficult to be in that position.

Not that this will do any good, but I’d like to remind people that this is a post about narrative and criticism and misogyny, not about which candidate sucks. Be it resolved that they both do, but the DNC and the media suck worse, and misogyny sucks worst of all, even when it’s directed at someone you don’t want to vote for. Mmkay?

Oh, and anyone mentions Bosnia, I’m deleting their comment. I don’t care, it’s irrelevant to the post, and it makes me have to think of Sinbad and his scary, scary shirts, and that’s bad.

** *If the situations were reversed, I’d say the same thing — if Obama were close behind Clinton with a not-probable but still-possible path to the nomination, projected wins ahead and a lot of voter support, I’d expect that pressure from the party to drop out would look like a white party establishment trying to get the black candidate to step down in favor of the white candidate.

UPDATE: I’ve already deleted a couple of comments from someone who’s never commented here before who pulled the “But what about this thing that Clinton did? Huh? Huh? That makes it all okay!” trick. That’s not on topic; the topic here is the DNC trying to push out Clinton and using sexist frames to do so. Once again, the topic is sexism by the DNC to cover its own ass, and since this is a feminist blog, it goes without saying that misogyny is never an acceptable means of belittling anyone, so trying to justify it via reference to something that person did is not acceptable. If we can apply that rule to Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin, we can apply it to Hillary Clinton, can we not?

Just a warning: I’m going to be pretty ruthless about trolling, attempts at derail, ad homs and general off-topicness. And yes, I *will* delete your comment if you don’t abide these rules. This is not the government, so the First Amendment doesn’t apply here. Okay? Okay.


127 thoughts on Kneecapping

  1. I have had massive probs with the way Hillary has been portrayed the entire campaign, but [off-topic link deleted. — z.] is what I think is going to push me over the edge on her. I need to really get the details here, but it doesn’t look good- if she thinks business as usual with Richard Scaife is OK, I just am at the end of my wits.

  2. And we’re off topic already. Irrelevant, off topic, and as you admit, you need to get the details. So I’m taking out your link and sending you off to Google to find the details you seek.

    Topic, please!

  3. Yeah, the Tonya Harding thing is definitely low.

    Although, on the plus side (and the making Cecily feel super-old side) there are probably scads of people old enough to vote that said, “Tonya WHO?”

  4. It is on topic for me because I have been thinking about Hillary all day today, and I, and there are two sides to this coin, the first being how she has been portrayed independently of who she actually is, which you discuss here, and the other being who she actually may be. It is very difficult to get to the latter because of the institutional bias of the former. I recognize that there is a huge problem with the former as I state above. I find that the very recent story that I mention, a story that may relate directly to your post in that it could suggest that some aspect of what has been termed “kneecapping” may be in play has kind of thrown me for a loop. Whether it is the seeping of the constant anti-Hilalry rhetoric getting to me, or if I actually have an independent brain where I can form my own personal ideas of what I view as right or wrong and how they relate to Hillary’s behavior and the perception of her behavior, and it’s portrayal, I would suggest are very much on topic.

  5. That closes the loop a bit better. But you should still google that story, because there are transcripts available of interviews where she discusses what she was asked there. If you’re concerned about the way she’s portrayed, shouldn’t you make an effort to find out if the reports match what she actually said?

    AN YOU MADE ME TYPE AN IRRELEVANT APOSTROPHE

    Did I make you lose your D?

  6. Keep in mind, too, PP, she’s campaigning in Pennsylvania, and was trying to get an endorsement from the paper for the democratic primary. She’s a candidate. She can’t just blow off campaign obligations because some people hate her and she has reason to hate them. Asking her to do that would be setting up an impossible standard as well as asking her to give her opponent an advantage he didn’t earn, since she can hardly make a pitch for the paper’s nomination if she doesn’t try to get it, and then she doesn’t reach the same people in Pittsburgh that he does.

    It’s nice to be pure, but sometimes you have to swallow your disgust and do things you don’t want to do for the sake of your campaign, or your job, or whatever.

  7. she’s staying in because the voters keep voting for her and she keeps winning primaries

    Fancy that. The latest conspiracy theory that’s popped into my head (it’s late, I’ve been reading political blogs all day, I’m starting to see things) is that the DNC are freaking out because they’ve been flat out wrong about the “sheeple” this whole race:

    HRC was going to be inevitable (and then she wasn’t)
    Obama was going to be inevitable (and then he wasn’t)

    The sheeple are voting, and so far they haven’t voted in line with the DNC’s predictions, thus proving that the people at large have independent minds and vote as they please, which isn’t necessarily as the party elite please. I imagine that realizing the illusions of power & superiority (superior political knowledge/experience/wev) over the masses are just illusions is frightening. Too bad for them.

  8. Sorry, I got caught up watching Rockford files. They trashed his trailer again and he got beat up.

    Yes, I think TPM has been part of the problem this season. Yes, I agree with the fact that HRC had to meet with the paper and this is certainly how things work. She can’t not meet with them. I think I wish she would have had a different sort of interview with them, given that these guys are the scum of the earth. I don;t know if that interview could even exist in our political climate so I wont hold it against her. On a personal note, I’m not happy with her comments about Wright because I don’t think she’s being honest. This is because the version of Hillary I have in my head wouldn’t actually think the things she said about Wright. Now, she might be being honest, but this is a Catch-22 because I would think a little less of her if she were. I think there are of course lines to be crossed and certainly there are things out of Wright’s mouth that are not to be agreed with, but the majority of the comments discussed (leaving aside some HIV thing that I have not had time to read about) I don’t think warrant pulling your family out of a church. I find this part dispiriting, and that is my honest opinion.

  9. On the contrary, Zuzu, Obama has avoided Fox News. Surely they reach people that he otherwise won’t reach.

    You’re very quick on the misogynist basically speculating on the motivations of an anonymous official, which is dicey at best. It would be like calling someone racist for saying something against Obama.

    Granted, I’m male, so I don’t see the world from the same perspective. I’m also a racial, ethnic, and religious minority, and I’m more likely to see things through those lenses. But, your accusations seem beyond the pale to me.

    The calls for her to resign have little to do with the fact that she’s a woman but because she has, in my mind, crossed a line in her campaigning. Accusing your opponent of disenfranchising voters in order to secure a win is despicable. It’s despicable regardless of the gender of the candidate or the race of the candidate.

    So, I can make a gender neutral case for a DNC official complaining about her tactics. This strategy criticizes the DNC, increases anger toward the DNC, and generally isn’t good for the party.

    Clearly that’s an opinion, but it’s not misogynist to say that, is it? If my speculation is correct (and it’s hard to see why my theory is less valid than your’s), then your conclusion is a bit unfair.

    Sujal

  10. PS. Clearly, I’m postulating that the disenfranchising accusation is false, as Obama’s campaign didn’t make the rule, and as writers at my blog have pointed out, the “who gets to vote in the revote” is dicey in these open primary states.

    If there is credible evidence that I’ve missed that Obama’s campaign has actively killed or opposed a workable revote plan, I’m all ears.

  11. PPS (last one, promise): it’s probably worth stating that I’m an Obama supporter and am literally writing a post right now on my own blog explaining why I’m now joining calls for her to drop out. I found this post just reading opinions about the Scaife issue in the process of writing my post. So, full disclosure and all of that: Male, racial, ethnic, and religions minority, and I’m an Obama supporter. Let the cliches and accusations fly. 🙂

  12. Vaguely on-topic: How in God’s name did Jake Tapper get hired at ABC? He’s the reason I stopped reading Salon.com’s political coverage in 2001.

  13. ABC’s Brian Ross, their number one “investigative” guy “broke” the Clinton “was in the White House” story- they are a real mess over there. Justin Rood is good- he works under Ross, they hired him from TPM Muckraker.

  14. Pizza Diavola, I’m not really sure about all that. Clinton and Obama were picked as the frontrunners from the beginning, so even if predictions of which one is “inevitable” have been off, the overall picture has still been very much in line with DNC predictions. Give me a dark horse candidate in the lead, and I’ll buy that they’re seeing the limits of their power over the masses.

  15. The Tonya Harding reference gave me pause as well, and it certainly isn’t one I would’ve felt comfortable airing.

    That said, leave aside for a moment–just for a moment–the fact that Tonya Harding happens to be a woman. Harding’s conduct in 1994 was, I think, an extraordinary moment in sports–an insane fratricide calculated to advance the individual perpetrator at great cost to her team. To those who believe that Clinton’s only plausible path to the nomination requires her to pillory Obama and render him unelectable, Harding provides an extraordinarily apt parallel (far more applicable than the “O.J. Simpson Option,” it would seem).

    I don’t see the Tonya Harding story as primarily a narrative of gender roles. It’s a story about competition and ethics: What’s okay and not okay to do in a hard fought competition between two people who ultimately share the same goals?

    Now, living in the society we do, we aren’t going to be able to generally discuss the Tonya Harding story in a way that doesn’t involve some invidious gender stereotypes, which is why it probably shouldn’t have been brought up. But I don’t think it’s right to suggest that there’s nothing to see here but misogyny. What are the ethics of running a long-shot candidacy when making that long-shot involves really hurting the candidate who’s most likely to win?

  16. Well, the press was always going to pick on Clinton, but this is particularly bad because so many pundits, including liberals, are “graciously” offering the option of giving up now, before they bring the big guns to bear on her.

    This protracted primary hurts both Dem candidates, and now the wind has shifted and its time to dogpile on Clinton. The media is feeding the narrative that this entire kerfluffle is somehow Clinton’s fault in setting up future news cycles, so then they can muse “Why didn’t she drop out? She must be totally sociopathic, because only a demon-witch from the Abyss would not drop out of the race.” The DNC and supers are likely to follow Tennessee Gov. Phil Bredsen’s thought to hold a “mini-convention” after all the states have voted by June to crown the candidate BEFORE the convention. This is a good idea, because while a floor fight would be exciting, it would enssure a loss in November and Hillary and/or Obama lose by default that way. So it is likely that they will pick Obama, regardless of wins/losses in anything, simply because he plays better with the media. If Clinton wins at all, in anyway, the media will claim (however untruthfully) that she “stole” the election. This would be repeated ad infinitum until November.

  17. Well apparently Howard Dean is going to make sure he gets the outcome he chooses. I really cannot stand that man, never have, and he’s to blame for at least a portion of this mess.

  18. Yes, I agree with the fact that HRC had to meet with the paper and this is certainly how things work. She can’t not meet with them. I think I wish she would have had a different sort of interview with them, given that these guys are the scum of the earth. I don;t know if that interview could even exist in our political climate so I wont hold it against her. On a personal note, I’m not happy with her comments about Wright because I don’t think she’s being honest.

    I think I’m going to do a post about how you sometimes just have to swallow a lot in order to do your job. I’m sure that Scaife attended that interview for two reasons: he wanted to intimidate her, and he wanted that photo taken of him sitting right next to her. It’s unfortunate that the political climate is such that people are saying, “Oh, now it’s business as usual with her, she has no principles, she’s sold out,” rather than, “What a scumbag that guy is.”

    As for Wright, he’s as off topic as Bosnia. She’s been careful in what she says about that, and yet she still gets accused of bringing the topic up even though she was asked several direct questions about that. It’s just sad that there are so many people who’ve abandoned their skepticism and are now ready to buy into right-wing frames about her.

  19. I am super curious about what was deleted from the first comment. Are you guys deleting anything that is not pro-Hilary?

    Ironically, if you hadn’t deleted it from the first comment, it might not have gotten my attention this way…

  20. It was off-topic “But what about this thing that she did? Huh? Huh?”

    These threads have a tendency to devolve into a pissing match about Clinton, Obama, or Clinton vs. Obama, and the perceived treachery or awfulness of one or the other. But we’re talking about the fact that a DNC official — the body that oversees the delegate-selection process — is putting a thumb on the scale and trying to rush out a candidate who’s still winning primaries just because it fucked up in its own process. That, and the fact that that official is smearing that candidate as unhinged and unprincipled and power-mad enough to destroy everybody and the party as well just to win. And we’re also talking about the fact that the candidate who’s being rushed out has an interest in not simply being pushed out, but in losing honorably, because of issues larger than herself at work in her candidacy.

    After this, I’m not discussing my reasons for deleting or editing comments. If your comment didn’t appear, don’t complain about it, because that comment will also disappear. If people continue to derail, I’m closing comments.

  21. So, I can make a gender neutral case for a DNC official complaining about her tactics. This strategy criticizes the DNC, increases anger toward the DNC, and generally isn’t good for the party.

    You can make a gender neutral case for her resigning (and obviously, I disagree with whether her tactics are really all that “despicable,” as you say; seems that *disenfranchising voters* is a worse tactic than *accusing your opponent of disenfranchising voters*, but that’s a distraction). Yeah, sure.

    However, you also have to manage the perceptions of your calls for the candidate to drop out. And when you’re asking a candidate who’s going into a primary in which she has a double-digit advantage, who voters are still turning up in droves for, who has a strong argument that she should be the nominee should she perform well in the final primaries, to drop out, then you have to worry how that’s going to look to her supporters.

    And a lot of her supporters are older women. And a lot of older women well remember the days when men regularly got promoted over better-qualified women (or even when there were separate “men wanted” and “women wanted” sections of the classifeds), and women were just supposed to swallow it.

    Obama hasn’t been able to beat Clinton fair and square. If he gets the nomination handed to him because the party succeeded in pressuring Clinton to step aside when she still had a realistic (albeit outside) chance of winning, then there are going to be an awful lot of women voters, the kind who have been the backbone of the Democratic Party, who will be very, very angry at what the Party did to her. And they will be ill-disposed to view Obama as a legitimate candidate instead of yet another man who got promoted ahead of a well-qualified woman. The Republicans will used this perceived illegitimacy to attack him and to sway independents away from him. The Affirmative Action jokes will write themselves.

    I mean, by your logic, the Superbowl should have been called for the Patriots in the third quarter just because they were ahead and Patriots fans would have been angry if they didn’t win.

  22. Everybody likes a spirited primary (BTW, Obama would have been gone had he lost 10-11 primaries/caucuses in a row by double digits, because he was the underdog entering the primary season), but I think that too much of a good thing leads to the relative toxicity of the nominee, especially when the other party’s nomination has been settled. I don’t mind her taking all the way to Denver, however, if all of the guns (that includes you, Lanny Davis) are trained on McCain and his delusional, Constitution-eroding foreign and domestic policies.

    As for the the future post on cozying up to right-wing publications (sorry, your honor, she brought it up on direct), I would suggest three things before going forward: a Rupert Murdoch fundraiser for Senator Clinton in 2006, the recent reconciliation of Scaife and Bill Clinton, and the very recent news of an American Spectator article on one of Obama’s aide’s alleged Anti-Semitism.

  23. …but the majority of the comments discussed (leaving aside some HIV thing that I have not had time to read about) I don’t think warrant pulling your family out of a church. I find this part dispiriting, and that is my honest opinion.

    How in dog’s name can you say, with a straight face, that you have decided Hillary Clinton’s motives for her comments, when you haven’t had time to read about one of the most controversial things Wright said?

    Or are you being all meta-snarky, and I’m so old I missed it?

  24. I’d like to think that DNC officials are unbiased but I think that is naive too. They are all superdelegates and as such eventually they will all have a dog in this fight. I have to say though I absolutely hate when journalists allow people to say things anonymously, at the very least Tapper should have identified whether this person has thrown his or her support behind Obama or Clinton or no one yet, because yeah, that makes a big difference.

  25. She can try to avoid the appearance of knee-capping but only if she avoids the Q+A seasons on which she thrives. As long as the media is only going to cover one question or line of questioning however many topics she covers in the session then she is stuck.

  26. Wright and Scaife are off-topic. Consider yourselves warned.

    Sorry — my point was that any- and everything will be used against Hillary — it’s so knee-jerk that people don’t even bother to read what they source before sourcing it as evidence that Hillary Clinton is evil, manipulative, and right-wing-lite, and should quit the race now, for the good of the country.

    People who don’t like Hillary Clinton seize upon everything she does and says, twisting it to suit their motives. I’m just so sick of it. And sick of people pretending — or, more charitably, not being able to admit to themselves — that their visceral dislike of Clinton has nothing to do with her gender.

  27. Zuzu: How do you see Clinton winning the nomination? I ask this as a former Clinton supporter who doesn’t see a plausible path to the win that *doesn’t* involve going nuclear on Obama. Let’s assume for the purpose of argument that doing so would be a bad thing for the Democratic Party.

    Obama currently has a 167 delegate lead in the pledged delegates. If my math is correct, there are 565 unpledged delegates remaining to be allocated. Again, assuming my math is correct, this would mean that, in order to claim an advantage among the unpledged delegates, she would have to get 366 of those delegates. This might be feasible, but you have to keep in mind that Democratic primaries / caucuses split the delegates. That means that not only does Hillary have to win the remaining primaries, she would have to win by roughly 66%. I can’t come up with a scenario in which that happens.

    You’ve likely noticed by now that I’m focusing on the unpledged delegates, rather than the unpledged PLEO delegates. That’s because the narrative, at least for now, is that these delegates *really* don’t want to overturn the will of the voters (despite the fact that they were put in place to do just that); this is largely because there are a lot of uninformed people out there who don’t understand how the process works (just like there were lots of people who were surprised in 2000 that the electoral college was what mattered). In order to get the superdelegates behind her, Clinton has to convince them that the political price they will pay is worth making her the nominee. She’s not going to do that by talking herself up; she has to tear down Obama to make it worth tossing the nomination to her.

    It doesn’t matter that Clinton has a large lead in Pennsylvania… it won’t be enough to cinch the pledged delegates, and unless the PLEO delegates feel it’s worth siding against the majority of pledged delegates to get behind Clinton (read: unless Clinton succeeds in making Obama seem radioactive), they won’t. She can’t win, and needs to get out for the good of the party.

    If you can articulate a solid path to the nomination for her, I’d be happy to hear it.

    I won’t discuss the claim that reporters are being misogynistic by claiming that Clinton is on the attack in certain matters, because apparently that’s off topic. I hope that recommending you check out http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com , as I find Marshall’s coverage of the primary to be fair. If this is off-topic, I apologize, and hope that you’ll only delete this part of the post, rather than the decidedly-on-topic argument presented above.

  28. There should have been a “isn’t off-topic” after that link. Clearly I should proofread more before submitting (or possibly learn how to use that edit link that doesn’t seem to be working for me >.<).

  29. I know this post will probably be deleted, but I think it’s very important to the feminist cause. Anyway, here I go…

    Zuzu, you don’t think that reigniting the Wright controversy–which even Josh Marshall at Talking Points Memo said was low because the Wright sermon was taken out of context–anyway, you don’t think that Sen. Clinton bringing up Wright again was an attempt to kneecap Obama? I ask this because many blacks are bitter about the biased coverage this story has received. I saw this situation as an opportunity for Sen. Clinton to regain the black vote by coming out in defense of Rev. Wright, but she didn’t. Rather than helping this pastor and his church, she used this controversy as an opportunity to attack Obama.

    This is the disconnect between feminists. This blog was silent during the racist coverage of the Wright videotapes by MSM and their cartoonish depiction of an AA church. Very few Americans took notice that in those same sermons Rev. Wright decried sexism and homophobia. The only thing anybody noticed was the “God damn American.” And it seems to me that it’s the responsibility of blogs like Feministe to get the truth out.

    Now after two weeks of silence you’re willing to blame Obama for the sexist Harding comment?

    I’m both a woman and an African American. I can’t disown either aspect of my identity, and seeing feminists willing to dismiss a concern that’s important to me–racism–is truly saddening.

  30. I’m going to go with the optimistic take – because I’m a pathological optimist and because I hate Cassandras – and say that this prolonged campaigning might be a good, instead of a bad, thing. It shows that the Dems, for ONCE, have two strong candidates who appeal to a large section of the population. Also, voter turn-out among the Dems has far exceeded that of the Republicans. And, people who live in states who get to vote later (normally after the primary is all sewn up by someone) are seeing their votes COUNT for once. How can that not be a good thing?

    I would hate to see HRC resort to dirty tricks to gain the nomination, because if she is seen as overriding “The will of the people” that WOULD hurt the Dems.

  31. I don’t agree that this criticism of her is rooted in misogyny. Everywhere else I have read similar comments about how HRC’s campaign will do whatever it takes to win I have heard it characterized as “The Clintons.” (Notably on TPMCafe, possibly elsewhere.)

    I have not read anything implying that Hillary herself is a ruthless queen bee. I have however read much implying that the Clintons, employ on occasion somewhat questionable tactics in order to win. Meaning that Bill has done this in the past, and that it is no surprise that Hillary would do the same, because they are political insiders committed to winning.

    While it isn’t totally unreasonable that some anti hillary comments could be rooted in misogyny, I don’t think this particular one is. HRC’s campagn has already behaved in ways that showed them to be rutheless competitors. Hillary Clinton herself has, already, in this campaign said things that were interpreted as an endorsement of McCain over Obama, specifically on the experience question. Also, her campaign left her name on the ballot and campaigned in states where other candidates collectively ageed not to campaign or leave their names on the ballot. And herlawyers tried to change the rules of caucuses in Las Vegas at the last minute. This comment about her “kneecapping” Obama is rooted in examples of her past ruthless behavior, not on some vague pretense of misogyny.

    And I think the comparison to Tanya Harding is very apt. Here we have two competitors representing the same group. The second best competitor goes out of their way to destroy the chances of the leading competitor, thus destroying the hopes of an entire nation. While this has not happened yet, and I hope it will not, I think it is a near perfect parallel to draw, regardless of how many people involved have vaginas.

  32. I’m trying to remember a sports situation between male athletes where one of them deliberately injured another member of his team so that the guy who caused the injury could be the hero and win the game.

    Anyone?

  33. I saw this situation as an opportunity for Sen. Clinton to regain the black vote by coming out in defense of Rev. Wright, but she didn’t. Rather than helping this pastor and his church, she used this controversy as an opportunity to attack Obama.

    Let me ask you this: If someone made very specific (and gendered, and plain tacky) attacks on you and your husband in a church service and nobody came to *your* defense, would you come out in defense of him?

    I don’t have any problem with what Wright said regarding race or the US’s failure to recognize that its actions around the world (other than his timing on the 9/11 sermon, but I’m a New Yorker and I take issue with anyone who made such finger-wagging statements while I was still breathing the ashes of dead people and hadn’t yet heard whether any of my co-workers had been killed). But he made very nasty personal attacks on Clinton as a person, and on her husband, for which neither Wright (who may very well have been in nor Obama has made amends or even acknowledged. So she’s got every reason to not want to defend the guy.

    Unfortunately, to circle this back to the point of this post, the misogyny of Wright’s comments (and his comments specifically about her) have been disappeared and the race/anti-American issues have come to the fore. The wisest thing for her to do is to keep her mouth shut, but that’s very difficult to do when you have to give interviews in order to get endorsements. No matter what she does or says, it’s spun negatively. So people start asking why she didn’t defend Wright, when it could be just as easily asked why Obama didn’t distance himself from Wright’s comments about her.

  34. Well, looks that database error really did eat my comment, so here’s my second try.

    I don’t think the Tonya Harding comparison is primarily about gender. It’s primarily about class.

    Think about it. The whole mess was presented in the media as Trailer Trash Tonya Harding attacking Perfect Suburban Princess Nancy Kerrigan because Harding just couldn’t hack it in the middle-class world of figure skating. She tried to act like she was better than she was, and she failed.

    Now think about the Clintons, and the Villagers, and how the Clintons came into Washington in 1992 and trashed the place, and it wasn’t their place. That’s why the media is leaping into it with such delight.

    (My first version was better, dang it. Stupid database error.)

  35. Good point, Mnemosyne. But I think there’s another dimension to it: the Tonya Harding/Nancy Kerrigan thing is famous because women aren’t supposed to do that, especially not perfect little ice princesses, who wear sequins and aren’t regarded as actual athletes.

    Men do it all the time in sports (and in politics), but nobody bats an eye unless it’s particularly vicious; hell, the entire premise of Slap Shot was that the team started winning because of their nasty tactics.

  36. Let me ask you this: If someone made very specific (and gendered, and plain tacky) attacks on you and your husband in a church service and nobody came to *your* defense, would you come out in defense of him?

    Again you’re focusing on the statements that MSM choose to show for sensationalism. You should watch the entire segment of his sermons before making a judgement about him. Wright NEVER said anything sexist about Hillary Clinton. If anyone should be offended it should be Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. He said Hillary Clinton has never been called a Nigga–which I think it’s safe to say she hasn’t. I would contend that she’s been called horrible things that are just as offensive.

    As far as the 9/11 attacks and GD America, he was addressing what a U.S. ambassador had said on Fox the day before. The video is linked on Alternet.

    But Clinton doesn’t have to defend Wright–I’m saying she would’ve garnered a lot of black support if she had. And a sidenote: it’s interesting that she can be selectively forgiving–for example forgiving McCain for what he said about her daughter or forgiving of the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, a paper funded by the same guy who funded the Arkansas Project.

    My two pointa are: there is a disconnect between feminism and issues of racism–not just black/white, but brown/white or black/brown. And bringing up Wright was tacky. I think it’s equally tacky that Obama’s people are kicking her now that she’s down. But when you use the “Kitchen Sink” strategy to convince millions of people a guy won’t can’t answer a phone at 3am, I guess anything is fair game for both sides. Just don’t tell me that somehow Clinton is being unfairly attacked.

  37. zuzu, in your reply (#24) to me, you seem to be implying that the reason the anonymous official is a misogynist (or engaging in misogyny?) is that they’re advocating something that might make a number of women unhappy, that it might seem like their candidate was being taken away from them.

    Please help me out here, because I read that as basically saying that if someone comes to a conclusion that involves Clinton dropping out, it is anti-woman and the decision-makers are anti-woman. This is the case no matter what actual logic or reasoning they used, because the perception among this group of people would be that it’s anti-woman.

    That seems ridiculously unfair to the people making the decision, and I’m not in the habit of defending them.

    Also, on the disenfranchising of Michigan/Florida, please provide some links about what the Obama campaign has done to quash the Michigan/Florida revotes.

    Again, there are good reasons to avoid a revote because there are serious concerns about WHO gets to vote in the revote, especially since Michigan is an open primary state, and the fact that most of the candidates took their names off of the ballot.

    Oh, and Mnemosyne on #37, I can’t think of one either. In fact, I can’t think of a situation where the intentional injurer would be held up to praise by more than a small minority of super hard core fans.

    I used to work at ESPN, which doesn’t necessarily make me smarter about sports, but meant that I used to watch a LOT of old NFL films, baseball histories, etc. during the day at my desk. So, for what that’s worth…

  38. Men do it all the time in sports (and in politics), but nobody bats an eye unless it’s particularly vicious; hell, the entire premise of Slap Shot was that the team started winning because of their nasty tactics.

    Yes, against their opponents. If you’re on the Bulls and you foul someone from the Pistons, not only will people not care, they’ll cheer you on. But if you’re Scottie Pippen and you deliberately trip Michael Jordan because he’s scoring better than you, you’d better run and hide, because those same fans will come after you.

    (Yes, my comparisons are way out of date, but I don’t follow sports much.)

    People tend to forget, but figure skating at the Olympics is a team sport, so Harding didn’t just injure a rival, she injured a teammate.

    That’s what worrying that Hillary will “do a Tonya Harding” means — that she’ll put her own interests above those of the party and deliberately damage Obama to the point that he won’t win in November. That’s why I don’t think gender is the main aspect of it.

    I guess that’s the difference here: I don’t see Hillary and Obama as opponents in the same way that McCain will be their opponent. I see them as rivals on the same team — Pippen/Jordan or Bryant/O’Neal instead of Duke vs. North Carolina. If you damage the team to feed your own ego, fans will not forgive you for that.

    (Yes, it sucks that our politics have become a sport, but that’s the hand we have right now.)

  39. But Clinton doesn’t have to defend Wright–I’m saying she would’ve garnered a lot of black support if she had.

    Maybe. But she may very well have opened herself up for more attacks, either from people who want to tie what Wright said on her, or from people determined to render her toxic on race. I don’t blame her for treading very, very carefully on this one.

    I’d have preferred she didn’t answer the question at all, but she was asked what she would have done, not what Obama should have done. I just don’t know if there was any good way to get out of that interview without having to answer some question or another like that.

    Again you’re focusing on the statements that MSM choose to show for sensationalism. You should watch the entire segment of his sermons before making a judgement about him. Wright NEVER said anything sexist about Hillary Clinton. If anyone should be offended it should be Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. He said Hillary Clinton has never been called a Nigga–which I think it’s safe to say she hasn’t. I would contend that she’s been called horrible things that are just as offensive.

    He said she’d never had to work twice as hard for anything, which is just crap, and if not outright misogynistic, at least shows a rather large dollop of male privilege. And while she’s never been called a nigger, Obama’s never been called a cunt. He certainly doesn’t have Republican 527s called “C.U.N.T.” So he’s pretty much wrong on all that, and on the Bill and Monica stuff, but again, that’s never been addressed by Obama. Or Clinton herself, really.

    But again, we’re getting a little far afield.

    As is sujal with the demands for links to Obama’s campaign disenfranchising voters. Not in the post, sujal! Google is your friend. Here’s a hint: “50-50.”

  40. That’s what worrying that Hillary will “do a Tonya Harding” means — that she’ll put her own interests above those of the party and deliberately damage Obama to the point that he won’t win in November. That’s why I don’t think gender is the main aspect of it.

    And publicly circulating your belief that one of the candidates is OMG going to pull a Tonya Harding!!! So she better get out now!!!! is putting your own (DNC’s) interests above those of the party as well. What business does the DNC have trying to rig the election?

  41. Seriously? Zuzu can’t write a post without misogyny in the media without having to answer seven hundred and twelve rounds about DO YOU RLY THINK SHE CAN WIN?! That’s not even just off-topic, it drowns out the main point, which is that when a woman runs for high office her own fucking party thinks it’s appropriate to tell the press that she is a vindictive cheating figure-skater. In fact, it’s a pretty important part of the larger point, which is that we’ll go to any lengths to ignore misogyny against Senator Clinton, we will pound away at her (real or imagined) mistakes and flaws while allowing some pretty large passes for nearly every other politician on the national stage, and then we will call for “balance” when someone stands up for her.

    This statement was despicable. The fact that it comes from a party leader is gut-wrenchingly disturbing. This is an awesome take-down of it, though, Zuzu.

  42. The party has an interest in winning the White House. If Clinton can’t win the primary, but stays in anyway, it weakens the Democratic Party and makes it more likely McCain will win in November.

    The DNC exists to win general elections. It is *absolutely* it’s business to act in a manner consistent with that goal.

  43. Once again, the topic is sexism by the DNC to cover its own ass,

    okay, let’s talk about the topic then. i don’t buy for an instance that the DNC has anything to cover its ass over. they made the rules, WHICH THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO, florida and michigan chose not to play by them. florida and michigan disenfranchised themselves.

    Obama hasn’t been able to beat Clinton fair and square.

    simply not true. he hasn’t beaten her yet, of course, but the lead in pledged delegates he enjoys is one he won fair and square. and – if the michigan and florida primaries were to be revoted, she would not win enough of an advantage to overcome his lead. the clinton campaign is better off NOT having a revote in those states, because then they have something to complain about. if those states held a re-vote, enfranchising everyone and not just clinton voters, then obama would still come out ahead according to all reasonable projections and polls. and then where would you be.

    because the party succeeded in pressuring Clinton to step aside when she still had a realistic (albeit outside) chance of winning,

    that’s just B.S. she DOESN’T have a realistic chance of winning. i asked you in the other topic to provide me with a numerical roadmap for her win, and you never responded. that’s something i have yet to see or hear from a clinton supporter – just how she is going to win.

    and i agree that calls for her to drop out are not anti-woman. i’m not calling for her to drop out, because i want our primary in may to be well attended. but still.

    and i don’t have a problem w/ the tonya harding metaphor.

    let me ask you this: what language would you have preferred?

  44. And publicly circulating your belief that one of the candidates is OMG going to pull a Tonya Harding!!! So she better get out now!!!! is putting your own (DNC’s) interests above those of the party as well. What business does the DNC have trying to rig the election?

    The DNC told Michigan and Florida not to move their primaries up, and what would happen if they did. Michigan and Florida ignored the DNC. Now they’re complaining that the DNC won’t back down from what the DNC told them they would do.

    Sorry, but actions have consequences. It sucks for Michigan and Florida, but maybe they shouldn’t have publicly broken with the national party. Insisting that the DNC change their minds and back down from what they told Florida and Michigan they would do if those states moved up their primaries seems like a bit more rigging than what the DNC did, doesn’t it?

    But, hey, Obama is the enemy, not McCain, so focus all your energy on him and the DNC. We Democrats never can pass up an opportunity to shoot ourselves in the foot, can we?

    (And, yes, I say these same things to the insane Obama supporters, too, because they’re just as damaging. Again, rivals, not opponents.)

  45. Pocochina: the allegation is that calls for Clinton to pull out are misogynistic. My argument is that they are simply a rational reaction to the current circumstances, which heavily suggest Clinton cannot possibly win the nomination, not driven by any animus towards women or even any sort of male privilege.

    If you can’t win a primary election, but you stay in anyway, you do so to the detriment of the party you supposedly care about.

  46. Obama hasn’t been able to beat Clinton fair and square.

    I have no idea what this means. Obama is winning. As far as “fair and square” goes, both campaigns have slung mud.

    In reality, this primary isn’t that much different from others in terms of the conduct of the candidates and their staff. In fact, I believe this primary is actually cleaner in that regard. What’s different now is the 24-hour news cycle and the bloggers cheerfully over-analyzing everything.

    I’ve never seen such vitriol going on between democrats. Yes, Hillary has been subjected to some awful sexist tripe from the MSM, just as Obama has been subjected to terrible racist tripe from same. But instead of going after the MSM for their bullshit, the various campaign supporters are instead going after the opposing candidates. The fact is that the MSM is playing the Obama and Clinton camps against one another, and it’s working. McCain’s going to be President because the two Democratic factions are blowing up at each other. We’re being played for fools.

    Are you, Zuzu, aren’t helping.

  47. While a case might be made that the “tonya harding” line was sexist (maybe along the lines that it would not come up if the two were men), I don’t think it has been made convincingly. However, as a few posters have pointed out, Clinton *is* making too much noise about how she and McCain are qualified and Obama is not. That certainly sound like trying to hurt the other person on your team at the expense of your team. Personally, I have been a bit disappointed at that kind of talk coming from Clinton and the Clinton camp. Saying bad things about the other Dem is one thing, but saying good things about the Republican at the same time seems over the line.

  48. Huh. Well, I think the analogy is probably gender specific (in that if the situations were reversed, they would have found an analogy featuring a man), but I’m not really seeing the misogyny. As far as it being misogynistic to pressure her to get out or ease up on Obama, its absolutely relevant whether she can still win, because every primary challenger gets pressured to drop out when it looks like they can’t win.

    So I guess I’m not really seeing the sexism.

  49. But, hey, Obama is the enemy, not McCain, so focus all your energy on him and the DNC.

    Where did I say Obama was the enemy? Please keep focus here on what I wrote, not to what you’re imagining I must have written. I also suggest you find another outlet for your venting about the Florida and Michigan votes being final and unappealable. I’ve read the rules, and I can bury you with detail on why that’s not so (do not taunt Happy Fun Lawyer), but this isn’t the place for it.

    Are you, Zuzu, aren’t helping.

    And I *do* enjoy being scolded for vitriol by someone who can’t figure out that being ahead going into the third quarter isn’t the same thing as *having won.*

    Would you be content, if you were a Giants fan, had the refs called the Superbowl in the third quarter because New England was ahead and *everybody knows* that they’re going to win? Hey, they were *winning,* right?

    Like I’ve said, these two are effectively tied, and it is the height of hubris for the people who are running the primary to start trying to push her off the stage and get her to concede when she still has a fighting chance.

    People don’t like to hear this, but perceptions matter in politics, and the party has to worry not only about the perceptions of Obama’s supporters, but the perceptions of Clinton’s supporters as well. And so far, 13 million of them have cast their votes for her. Is the party really intending to declare that those people don’t matter? That they may have voted for her, and worked for her, but the party’s going to step in now, thank you, and take this decision away from them?

    Talk about setting up your candidate to lose in November. Put a premature end to an exciting contest that’s brought out record numbers of primary voters and is nowhere near unwinnable for Clinton, and do it in a way that is sure to piss off those voters and open your preferred candidate up for charges that he can’t win without someone stepping in and handing him the nomination on a silver platter?

    Also, Sickle? Using McCain as a bogeyman to try to scare me into shutting up isn’t going to work.

  50. Where did I say Obama was the enemy?

    Right where you said that he — or his campaign — are the ones pushing the story:

    But whether it’s a DNC official or a Party official [ETA: ** or an Obama official; apparently, Obama himself is the originator of the “Tonya Harding” formulation], there are many, many things wrong with this story.

    You also keep saying that the DNC is doing what they are to stack the deck and make sure Obama wins — basically, cheating on his behalf. Are you saying that you think that if that deck-stacking is happening, Obama is completely unaware of it?

    I also suggest you find another outlet for your venting about the Florida and Michigan votes being final and unappealable. I’ve read the rules, and I can bury you with detail on why that’s not so (do not taunt Happy Fun Lawyer), but this isn’t the place for it.

    I didn’t say it was final and unappealable. However, if your dad tells you that you’ll be grounded if you’re not home at midnight, and you come in at 3:30 am, you should have a better argument than, “But it’s not FAAAAIIIIIRRRR to do what you told me you would do!” At least make up a car accident.

    The DNC told Florida and Michigan that they would be grounded if they didn’t follow the rules. Florida and Michigan didn’t follow the rules. The DNC grounded them. If the whole thing was taken to court, sure, you could probably get lawyers to argue that the rules that the DNC made weren’t fair and should be retroactively voided. A kid could probably take his parents to court and get an injunction against being grounded, too. What’s your point?

  51. Also, I’m trying to figure out where anyone anywhere in this thread said that Hillary should drop out. I certainly haven’t, because I don’t think she should.

    Yes, each campaign is trying to psych the other into quitting. The Clinton campaign is doing it to Obama, the Obama campaign is doing it to Clinton. That’s how the game is played.

  52. I mean, by your logic, the Superbowl should have been called for the Patriots in the third quarter just because they were ahead and Patriots fans would have been angry if they didn’t win.

    That’s a horrible analogy. The Superbowl should have been called for the Patriots in the 3rd quarter if:
    A) they were winning by an insurmountable margin
    B) the Giants were no longer playing to win, but rather to injure as many of the Patriots as possible because
    C) a team from Mars was sitting on the sidelines ready to play the winner and institute a reign of death and oppression should they manage to win the second game and
    D) the Giants figured that after 4 years of death and oppression they could play the team from Mars in a rematch and nobody would contest their right to do so because they told you all along that they should be the ones to play the Martians.

  53. Mnemosyne, please find me where I said he was “the enemy.” Your example does not suffice. He came up with the formulation, and now the DNC’s spreading it and helping him out besides. I’ve said that they’re trying to fix their own fuckup.

    Florida and Michigan are the DNC’s fuckup. They went overboard on the penalty in the first place (they could have opted to do a 50% penalty, but went with 100%), then mucked around with finding a solution that would allow a face-saving solution for everyone — the very same kind of face-saving solution that is specifically allowed under their rules because they’ve made quite sure that they cover their own asses. Now it’s too late, and they have a political problem on their hands. And they’re trying to throw Clinton overboard to save themselves without considering the ramifications of such an action.

    And I do wish everyone would stop focusing just on the fact that Tonya Harding is female. I never said that that was the sole reason this whole thing stinks of misogyny. Indeed, I seem to recall pointing out that women who actually fight and compete are torn down as bitches and passed over, and that the DNC’s putting its thumb on the scale here looks very, very bad.

  54. Libdevil, how is it an insurmountable margin if the DNC official admitted that she can, in fact, still win?

  55. The DNC told Florida and Michigan that they would be grounded if they didn’t follow the rules. Florida and Michigan didn’t follow the rules. The DNC grounded them. If the whole thing was taken to court, sure, you could probably get lawyers to argue that the rules that the DNC made weren’t fair and should be retroactively voided. A kid could probably take his parents to court and get an injunction against being grounded, too. What’s your point?

    Well, the political leaders in those states set the bad dates – but the Democratic voters in those states merely participated in the political process in the best way that they could. It speaks to their (good) political concern that they turned out to vote, and cared who the nominee was, even if they weren’t sure their votes would be counted.

    Throwing their votes out of the convention penalizes the ordinary Democrat who showed up for the primary and was properly concerned and active in caring about who the party nominee will be. But the leaders who set the bad date still have their jobs, and are left mostly untouched.

    Perhaps have any Democrat in the state governments who voted to set up the primary so early loose their super delegate status (if they are super delegates), and have them locked out of the convention. Focus the penalty on the people who actually committed the wrong, not on the people who, if the delegates aren’t counted, would be the worst victems of the harm, having their voices ignored by their own party.

    This is probably the first time that the primary system is working properly. Every primary counts, and every party voter has a say, whether their state primary is early or late. Super delegates are there to provide a voice for the party establishment, and a check on the enthusiasms of the moment in a similar fashion to how the Senate (with six year terms) was to provide a longer-term focus, while the House was more immediately responsive, the founding organization of Congress

    This could be a big plus, in terms of showing the Democratic party as the true “Main St.” party – a system that focuses on counting the votes, rather than having a quick answer.

  56. re. 44 and a male sports start beloved for injuring others- Pete Rose. He was a mean sucker known for spiking other players and yet beloved.

  57. Here is an argument: First, if it is highly unlikely by spring time that someone will be nominated, then it is better for their party if that person gracefully gets out of the way, and, second, it is highly unlikely that Clinton will be nominated. I can’t tell which of these claims you reject, zuzu.

  58. Figure skating ia a team sport at the Olympic level in name only. Each skater has their own coach and staff, each one fights her own way up and millions of dollars of endorsements ride on the difference between gold and silver. Using Tonya Harding as an example is both classist and misogynistic but at least still accepts that they are fighting the primary when they are on their own battling for primacy.

    If this primary battle for the candidacy teaches the Democrats anything about the nature of the system then that is all to the good and maybe it is time for a party to have to have an honest floor fight between candidates. Stopping this now just guarantees ill will that is unresolved by an airing of grievances. The party needs to accept that things can get messy but at heart everyone wants the same thing- a clear path to stomping John McCain and the Republicans into the ground in November.

  59. Chad- mathematically Obama can’t be nominated either, he just misses with more pledged delegates. Are you implying that they should both bow out gracefully and the party chose a random third person?

  60. I was suggesting that Obama is the likely nominee. He won’t win the nomination without superdelegates going for him, of course, but I think he is still very likely to be the nominee.

  61. zuzu, how on earth do you come away with saying that at this point they are effectively tied?

    is it because obama won’t reach 2025 w/ pledged delegates? is that your rationale?

    because on that basis, you’re basically saying that winning the majority of the pledged delegates and the majority of the popular vote does not have any kind of significant weight, if not the most significant weight, of any factor going into the convention?

    for clinton to win the nomination, the superdelegates will have to vote, on the agregate, to overturn the will of the popular vote/pledged delegate count.

    i’ve asked you before, and you never answered, so i’ll answer again: why on earth would they do that? what would be the motivation? and what would be the consequences?

    i get the impression, correct me if i’m wrong, that you think that clinton is close enought that some sort of hail mary pass is going to save her. but the race doesn’t work that way. if you’re going to use a sports analogy, it’s a marathon race not a football game. given the distance between the two candidates and their current paces, we can see who is going to come out ahead at the end unless the one behind (clinton) gets an insane burst of speed (i.e. wins EVERY remaining state by 2-1 margin) or the frontrunner either stops running or drops out due to an injury.

    i don’t know, maybe you & i look at this differently because you are a lawyer and i’m an engineer. could it be you look to the rhetoric, and are counting on clinton arguing her way to a primary victory at the convention, where i just look at the numbers? not saying one is more right than the other, but that may be why we miss each other.

  62. And I *do* enjoy being scolded for vitriol by someone who can’t figure out that being ahead going into the third quarter isn’t the same thing as *having won.*

    I didn’t say that. I said he was winning, not that he’d won. And they are not “effectively tied.” That’s simply not true. Obama is winning this contest in both pledged delegates and popular vote. The rules are the same for both candidates. If the popular vote and delegate counts are the same once all the primaries are over as they are now, the only way Clinton wins is by superdelegates putting her over the top in direct contrast to the will of the primary voters. That’s what Ted Kennedy tried to do in 1980, if you recall, a move which is widely credited with helping wreck the party during that election, making a tough sell in Jimmy Carter even tougher.

    This isn’t the first long primary contest for the Democrats, either, and calls for people to get out of the race “for the good of the party” are nothing new, and certainly aren’t unique to this primary in general or Hillary Clinton in particular. I admit I’m not well-schooled in the ins-and-outs of the Florida and Michigan situation, but I’m content to let the process work itself out. I don’t believe, like Ursula, that the results of those “contests” should be counted, since many Democrats (including my own parents) stayed home because they believed the results didn’t count, and their candidate (Edwards) wasn’t on the ballot anyway.

    You know, we have two awesome candidates of historic importance slugging it out right now, and I deeply admire both of them. With the exception of the candidates themselves, though, this is like any other primary contest I’ve ever seen. I’m going to be thrilled to support whoever comes out on top. But I’m not going to get up-in-arms about anyone suggesting Clinton leave the race any more than I was going to get up-in-arms about the Clintons suggesting Obama should be vice-president even though he was winning the primary at the time. This is SOP for campaigns, and it’s time for us to butt out, let the remaining voters have their say, and let the process play out.

  63. trishka, I’ve explained ad nauseam other places how she can win. Nutshell: the primaries are not over, she’s projected to win several more big states and is competitive in others, the decision will go to the superdelegates regardless because neither candidate can make 2025, and there are a number of arguments available in her favor.

    Even shorter verson: the fat lady, she has not sung.

    But let’s go back to the original article from Tapper: The DNC official conceded that she CAN win. So can we please concede that she CAN win, FFS?

    But what the DNC is also doing is trying to get her to quit before she’s lost, because they’re in a pickle and they want to avoid any unpleasantness over Florida and Michigan, or have to deal with perceptions that the black candidate was treated unfairly (apparently, they share no such concerns about perceptions that the female candidate might be treated unfairly).

    What they’re not understanding is that she cannot quit before she’s lost. They don’t want to let the process play out, because Obama just can’t finish her off before the convention, and the last thing they want is to not have a winner before the convention and have to deal with the Michigan and Florida situation.

    So they’re sticking a shiv in her, by trying to blame her for all the negativity and setting her up to take the blame if Obama doesn’t win in November. They’re spreading the perception that she’s going to destroy the party. Which is very, very troubling coming from a party official.

  64. But I’m not going to get up-in-arms about anyone suggesting Clinton leave the race any more than I was going to get up-in-arms about the Clintons suggesting Obama should be vice-president even though he was winning the primary at the time. This is SOP for campaigns, and it’s time for us to butt out, let the remaining voters have their say, and let the process play out.

    You don’t see a qualitative difference between the candidates urging each other to get out and the DNC urging one of the candidates to get out in order to cover their own asses? Because one is in fact, just the way the game is played, and the other is preventing the remaining voters from having their say and letting the process play out.

    It’s the difference between the teams trash-talking each other and the refs calling the game in the third quarter because they want to save their own skins. And if you can’t figure out what the difference is, then I really don’t know what to say to you.

  65. the Tonya Harding/Nancy Kerrigan thing is famous because women aren’t supposed to do that, especially not perfect little ice princesses

    Haha. No, try again. The Harding/Kerrigan things if famous because Olympic athletes aren’t supposed to get hired goons to physically assault their opponents before the competition. So in the tank.

  66. Let the remaining voters have their say, and let the process play out.

    This should be the mantra for the rest of the campaign until someone gets to the magic number because, by the rules, nothing else matters- not how many voted, not by what margins they swung, not even that the voters were actually Democrats with the good of the party tattooed to their hearts in red ink. Neither candidate can back out now without the Republicans using that as their theme- the Democratic nominee was given the nod, they didn’t win it the way McCain did. That is total hooey but it is a strong theme in a sound bite woprld. If the Democrats fight til they are bloody then the last one standing can come out as having been tested and vetted by having taken on the best, heck better than the Republicans can muster.

    There is no vote that matters except the next one, there is no number that matters except 2025 and even if it goes to a third ballot on the floor, the brain trust should be able to spin it into gold as long as we all remember that the goal is the White House in January ’09.

  67. The Republicans got a nominee when Mittens dropped out of the race, realizing he had a mathematical chance to win, but his only real chance was a miracle based on trashing McCain which he’d already tried and hadn’t had any success with.

  68. You don’t see a qualitative difference between the candidates urging each other to get out and the DNC urging one of the candidates to get out in order to cover their own asses?

    Um, the DNC has done or said no such thing. I have no idea what you’re talking about.

    The article (such as it is) says “Democratic Party official.” And even if we accept that it was actually a DNC official, there was no call for her to leave the race. Rather, the official says that for Hillary to win the nomination she must absolutely destroy Barack Obama, and asks (rightly, I think) whether that is what we as Democrats want to happen?

    I don’t agree with this guy’s opinion, but it is not true that this is the DNC telling Hillary to get out of the race. And you saying that it is is dishonest and wrong.

    Look, I’ve tried giving you the benefit of the doubt that you’re not a Clinton partisan, Zuzu, but I can’t anymore. When you’re the authority here, and when you’re warning your daily readers about what is or isn’t out-of-bounds, when you rarely blog about the primary at all except when you believe Hillary’s being mistreated, then I think you owe us the honesty of your position on the candidates. You have repeatedly said you believe otherwise. So be it.

    But you are out-and-out lying when you say the DNC is urging Clinton to get out to cover their asses. They are doing no such thing.

  69. The article (such as it is) says “Democratic Party official.” And even if we accept that it was actually a DNC official, there was no call for her to leave the race. Rather, the official says that for Hillary to win the nomination she must absolutely destroy Barack Obama, and asks (rightly, I think) whether that is what we as Democrats want to happen?

    That’s what we call “get the fuck out, Hillary.”

    I mean, seriously: do you *not* see that saying that the only way she can win is to utterly destroy Obama and the party and thus be responsible for President McCain is a call for her to leave the race?

  70. maybe i’m being paranoid…

    but it FEELS as if the DNC is trying to alienate everyone so that a WHITE MAN gets the prez.

    just how it feels. i do not say i can back up that feeling with any logic.

    but it really really really pisses me off. this is why we need more than 2 parties. what sort of assinine system postulates that 2 groups will take care of everyone’s needs?

    if i were going to organize Obama and H.Clinton, i wouldn’t out them in the same party at ALL.

    maybe that is what it is there… the DNC doesn’t want to lose itself, and HRC is different enough politically to change the shape of the DNC if she gets the nod? which seems backwards to me, as HRC seems more moderate than Obama.

  71. okay, zuzu, maybe you’ve written it other places ad nauseum but i haven’t seen any of those posts, so, okay, whatever.

    and – the point of the original article is that, using the marathon race metaphor, yes, yes she can win IF THE FRONTRUNNER DROPS OUT DUE TO AN INJURY.

    so the concern is that, based on some of her recent campaign actions, she is actively trying to or going to try to inflict injury on the frontrunner. hence the tonya harding reference.

    i’m sorry, but that seems legitimate to me. and not anti-woman at all.

  72. Pizza Diavola, I’m not really sure about all that. Clinton and Obama were picked as the frontrunners from the beginning, so even if predictions of which one is “inevitable” have been off, the overall picture has still been very much in line with DNC predictions. Give me a dark horse candidate in the lead, and I’ll buy that they’re seeing the limits of their power over the masses.

    EKSwitaj, fair enough–both of them were anointed the frontrunners. However, after the New Hampshire primary, the MSM was in a tizzy because they and their polls had been predicting that Obama would stomp Clinton, and then the voters produced an upset, and both Obama and Clinton have been winning races since then. While the MSM undeniably has (way too) much power in shaping the elections (spin, discussion, outcome), I think NH showed that their power isn’t absolute.

    But my point is, the DNC has seen that the voters will vote as they please and that although they (the DNC) can try to dictate outcomes, by declaring a candidate inevitable or saying a candidate should withdraw, they will be then held accountable by the voters. I’m not saying it’s an absolute overthrow by the voters, but I do think the illusion of absolute power and superiority is starting to crumble. They wouldn’t be so heavily invested in kicking out HRC otherwise.

  73. zuzu, you’re amazing. Clearly explaining these same points repeatedly in the hopes that something will stick — I wouldn’t have the patience for it.

    /re-lurking

  74. Kathygnome- true, Mittens had a decent chance but the last plays of the game are what will be played up. Huckabee held on to the Hail Mary pass right up until the magic number was reached and that is how McCain’s win will be remembered.

  75. I mean, seriously: do you *not* see that saying that the only way she can win is to utterly destroy Obama and the party and thus be responsible for President McCain is a call for her to leave the race?

    No, I do see that. What I don’t see is:

    the DNC urging one of the candidates to get out in order to cover their own asses

    which is what you have been saying the whole time. Until now, I guess.

  76. Its true that Huckabee held on till he was mathematically eliminated. Its also true that he was totally marginalized by the media and pushed hard by his party to get out and/or STFU about McCain once it was clear he had no real chance to win.

    Seems kind of similar to what’s happening right now to Clinton, minus the being ignored by the media part, of course.

  77. Seems kind of similar to what’s happening right now to Clinton, minus the being ignored by the media part, of course.

    I’m sorry, but can someone please point me to what must be a stockpile of DNC officials telling her to leave the race? Because I’m just not seeing it. This thing by Jake Tapper (since when do we trust Jake Tapper, of all people?) is the first thing I’ve seen that’s even close. Even the Clinton campaign is saying that “the other side is trying to shut this down,” not the DNC. I went googling and lexising trying to find something—anything—to back up this claim. I haven’t found a damned thing. I can only come to the conclusion that this “issue” is being invented out of whole cloth.

    This is about Florida and Michigan, isn’t it? It’s about wanting to seat those delegates, isn’t it? Because that’s the only issue I can see in which someone might reasonably argue that the party is trying to game the system against Clinton. And that would be a hell of a stretch.

  78. This is about Florida and Michigan, isn’t it? It’s about wanting to seat those delegates, isn’t it? Because that’s the only issue I can see in which someone might reasonably argue that the party is trying to game the system against Clinton. And that would be a hell of a stretch.

    Didn’t you read the post? I covered that.

  79. I mean, seriously: do you *not* see that saying that the only way she can win is to utterly destroy Obama and the party and thus be responsible for President McCain is a call for her to leave the race?

    I agree with you. That is exactly the message that is being conveyed.

    I simply happen to believe that the anonymous official is correct in their estimation.

    But to deny it’s the message being sent is insanity.

  80. Huckabee never had a mathematical shot at beating McCain but stayed in to make a point that the nominee had to WIN the nomination. McCain did that. That is directly related to the tough fight that the Democrats are having, except that the Democratic nominee will have really run a serious race unless the competition is called off prematurely. So now we have people trying to get Reid, Pelosi and Dean to arrange something, anything to stop the race now that it looks like it will go to the floor and the delegates will have to decide it at the convention. I seriously doubt that the superdelegates will agree on anything, though miracles could happen. Huckabee wanted one but maybe Dean will get it instead and be able to hold a coronation instead of dusting off the voting rules book.

    Understand that a real floor battle at the convention is exciting and will suck all the political oxygen away from the other party. The media will flock like lemmings to a real convention after basically ignoring the last ones as snorefests. The candidate nominated will be able to ride the euphoria to November if we stop this moaning and beating of breasts. The Republicans will only have an attempt to hold a McCain lovefest to compete and that is no competition at all. Honest, I have no clue why serious political leaders are even talking about Clinton backing out now with the race still so dynamic, except that the American political class has become a bunch of lazy politicians who want to be spoon fed predictable results.

  81. Zuzu: I think your desire to see Clinton win is overshadowing your reason. The Superbowl analogy is incredibly inapt, as another poster has demonstrated. I also think you’re being too quick to assume misogyny here: when the Republicans called on Romney and Huckabee to pull out of the race, was some sort of hidden bias at play there too, or was it just the same sort of political strategizing that several of us are calling for here?

    There are certainly good arguments for Clinton as the nominee. She’s built a strong career in the Senate, and her experience in the LSC certainly speaks to me, since I want to work in legal aid. However, I’m not willing to see the party go down in flames because my preferred candidate didn’t win over the people.

    If Clinton’s argument is that it’s going to come down to the superdelegates either way, she’s likely already lost. The current narrative is that the superdelegates going against the pledged delegates would amount to “overturning democracy” or “stealing the election.” It’s going to be hard to overcome that narrative and convince PLEOs that they won’t pay a price for supporting Clinton, and you seem to recognize that there’s no way for Clinton to take the lead in the pledged delegates. I ask you again: how do you think she’ll win? You must have some set of circumstances under which you think she’ll get the nomination, so why not share them?

  82. I think your desire to see Clinton win is overshadowing your reason.

    You mistake me. I am not a bitter-ender. However, I do not want to see her treated unfairly by the party when the voters are still coming out for her. And I certainly don’t want to see her crushed, or forced to capitulate if her opponent hasn’t actually beaten her yet.

    I’ll be fine if she loses once all the votes are in. But she hasn’t lost yet, and more importantly, Obama hasn’t *won.* He’s merely ahead, and in fact, he has no clear path to the nomination without the superdelegates, any more than Clinton does.

    But I want a legitimate nominee coming out of the convention. And Obama will not be legitimate if the party has to step in and call the contest early because they’re annoyed that the voters are keeping Clinton going.

    And I really have to ask: Why the rush? Where’s the fire? People are excited as hell by this primary season, and they’re turning out to vote in fucking droves. Droves! They’re breaking records right and left, even in states that were told their vote didn’t count!

    Doesn’t this give you a little frisson? For once, people realize that their votes count? Don’t you want to count their votes?

  83. Didn’t you read the post? I covered that.

    I saw that. What I didn’t see was how that tied into “the DNC urging one of the candidates to get out in order to cover their own asses.” I followed your logic to some extent (it’s really just armchair quarterbacking and speculation from afar), but in all honesty it doesn’t rise to the level you’re claiming.

    Still, despite my numerous and reasonable requests, no one in this thread has pointed me to anything to suggest that the DNC is trying to get Hillary to drop out of the race. I ask, and I get nothing.

    My opinion on it is simple. The DNC set the rules. Florida and Michigan unilaterally decided to break the rules. They were penalized. All the candidates thought that was just fine then. But now Clinton wants those delegates seated. I think they broke the rules, and so they don’t get to have their delegates there, no matter who’s in the lead now. Michigan and Florida have only their state parties to blame for that. And I am not sympathetic to either set of voters right now. They had a structure in place in which all the votes could be heard, but because they thought themselves more important than the system, they decided themselves to buck it. I don’t have any problem with that kind of arrogance being punished.

  84. To become president, a candidate needs 270 Electoral College votes. The winning candidate does not need to win the national popular vote.

    There are 538 electors in the College. In all but two states, Maine and Nebraska, the College works on a winner-takes-all basis. The winner of the popular vote in a state gets all the Electoral College votes in that state.

    There is only one set of rules that matters in the long run and those are the two main reasons why I have a problem with that kind of arrogance being punished. Punishing only leads to rebellion and the party needs resolution to ensure that the electorate of those states are for us and not agin us. People may say that Obama could win them over anyway or that it won’t be that bad but that is not a bet that I would be prepared to make with the next four years on the line. If anything is going to kneecap this party it is the hired goon mentality that says that punishing a state 100% for the crime of wanting to be taken seriously by the national party is a bright move. Of course sticking with a failed strategy because we say we have to appears to be a contagious ailment in American politics.

  85. Sickle, I linked to a huffington post article today that quoted Harry Reid as saying the race will be resolved easily before the convention and that Howard Dean personally told him “things are being done”. There are very few ways to interpret that other than pressure is being applied, and I doubt the pressure to step down is being placed on Obama. Now if the majority leader of the Senate is quoting the leader of the DNC I think its’ safe to say it’s a legit source, don’t ya think?

  86. But she hasn’t lost yet, and more importantly, Obama hasn’t *won.*

    Here’s where we differ. Just because Obama hasn’t yet gotten the delegates necessary to be the nominee doesn’t mean he doesn’t have this nomination in the bag. I don’t see any set of circumstances under which Clinton becomes the nominee in August, and my desire to see her win doesn’t trump the need for someone with a D next to their name to win in November.

  87. zuzu, re your #90 comment,

    Yes, they’re excited. What I’m upset about,and what I wrote last night (on my blog) was that she’s crossing all sorts of lines with her recent attacks. She’s allying with teh American Spectator, and with Scaife to win the nomination. She has boosted McCain in order to push down Obama. This is unacceptable. Praising the Republican candidate is not playing hard (spiking opposing players, to use Hawise’s Pete Rose example from #44), it’s violating the rules.

    As a Democrat and as someone who wants to see the Democrats take back the White House, what her campaign is doing is wrong.

    If she wants to stay in and simply said, “I’m the only one that is qualified to be commander in chief. That Yahoo McCain doesn’t understand the economy, and Obama is untested,” great! She can stay in and I’ll sit back and watch the floor fight with interest.

    But that isn’t what’s happening, and by declaring these topics to be “off-topic” you’re making it impossible to explain why I want her out of the race. For the record, I do want her out. The scaife/American Spectator stuff coming over the last few days have pushed me over the edge. These people represent the worst in American politics with their dishonesty and their tactics… all indications aren’t that Scaife has changed his behavior, just that he’s changed sides.

    Anyway, we’re not going to convince each other, it seems. I’ll summarize my points as such:

    * I don’t see the anonymous quote as indicative of official DNC policy
    * I believe that there is an objective case for Hillary Clinton to drop out
    * and that case isn’t rooted in misogyny

    We disagree about the seriousness of what she’s doing. Hawise likens it to playing hard, I would like it to cheating (intent to injure is against the rules, going in cleats first is within the rules… and Rose was hardly universally beloved.)

    That’s the crux of the matter. I’m not sure how to resolve that.

  88. Sickle, I linked to a huffington post article today that quoted Harry Reid as saying the race will be resolved easily before the convention and that Howard Dean personally told him “things are being done”. There are very few ways to interpret that other than pressure is being applied, and I doubt the pressure to step down is being placed on Obama. Now if the majority leader of the Senate is quoting the leader of the DNC I think its’ safe to say it’s a legit source, don’t ya think?

    I saw that article, and it does NOT say that Howard Dean told him that “things are being done.”

    Reid: No, it will be done. I had a conversation with Governor Dean (Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean) today. Things are being done. That’s all the Nevada Democrat would say about it.

    In fact, the article noted that Reid “isn’t one for lengthy explanations” and the reporter questioning him clearly wasn’t thinking Reid was as good a source as you do, even asking Reid at one point if the race would be over “magically.”

    If this is the best evidence out there that “the DNC” is getting Clinton out of the race, then I stand by my position. If I’m wrong, and somebody can show me I’m wrong, I’ll eat crow and admit it, and even join Zuzu in saying that it’s inappropriate for them to do it. But I’m not seeing any evidence of that at all, other than this article, which you appear to have misrepresented (unless I’m missing something).

  89. # S.H. Sorry, “misrepresented” is a little pejorative. What I mean to say is that I don’t read the article as saying that Dean “personally told” Reid that “things are being done,” but rather that’s Reid’s opinion of what’s happening behind the scenes. It’s a small point, but it doesn’t undercut your argument, actually. I still don’t think it rises to the evidence I’m looking for, but after further reading I’m not prepared to discount it, either.

  90. Clinton has to win 2/3 of the remaining delegates to win a majority of pledged delegates. Since delegates are distributed proportionately, there is virtually no chance of that happening. Even in Pennsylvania, where she’s crushing Obama, she isn’t leading 65-35.

    She is also trailing him by 700,000 votes in the popular vote, a lead she is extremely unlikely to overcome given that several of the remaining primaries are in the South, where she is getting destroyed with African-American voters (She is trailing him 84-16 with black voters in North Carolina).

    Neither candidate can win without the superdelegates. However, if Obama is ahead in the popular vote and ahead with the pledged delegates and the superdelegates give the nomination to Clinton, it will drive a wedge between the Democratic party and its most dependable constituency that will cost the party the presidency, the Senate, and a hell of a lot of local elections as well.

    Harry Reid, Howard Dean and others know that the Democratic Party cannot win if they throw black voters under the bus and they also know that Clinton’s only real chance to win is to do just that. That is why they want her out, not because they are all misogynists.

  91. The scaife/American Spectator stuff coming over the last few days have pushed me over the edge.

    You are sadly uninformed. Clinton met with the editorial staffs of some of the largest newspapers in PA, a state she is trying to win. Scaife owns those papers, so he invited himself to the meeting too. Obama has met with him as well, it just isn’t getting play in the media, b/c the history of animus isn’t there.

    But people who are dead set against Clinton will of course only believe the worst possible things from her.

  92. Aeryl, why question my motivations? Just correct me. I’m not “dead set against Clinton” in the least. And, if Obama has met with Scaife and is using American Spectator articles to take down Clinton, I’ll scream about that, too.

    I just did a quick google, but the articles that come up are all about Clinton/Scaife. If you have any stories/links to pass on, I’ll give them a read.

    Sujal

  93. I’m just kind of laughing right now because I myself got the “Tonya Harding feeling” (which, why yes, is kind of a classist and sexist analogy – tell me that doesn’t instantly bring to mind weepy catfighters or something) the last primary election after feeling kind of disgusted watching all the Democratic candidates trash Howard Dean and leaving us with the craptacular John Kerry. And here comes that feeling again.

    I really think the primary system as it stands just sucks, and makes whomever emerges at the end seem like a total asshole, because politics has become all about soundbites and fearmongering. Wake me up when it’s over.

  94. She’s allying with teh American Spectator, and with Scaife to win the nomination.

    Where’s your evidence that she’s “allying” with the American Spectator? All I’ve seen on that is Marc Ambinder’s unsupported assertion that the campaign is circulating an article from the Spectator. Which, woo! Must mean that Obama is allying with Clinton since he circulated a photo of Wright with Bill Clinton!

    Also, what Aeryl said about Scaife. It’s a non-story. She’s done hundreds of these editorial-board interviews, as has Obama. This one was remarkable only because Scaife owns the paper and she hates his guts, and yet she was still able to go do her job. And I seem to recall discussing this about 85 comments ago.

    She is also trailing him by 700,000 votes in the popular vote

    Fun fact: more than 600,000 of that total is from Illinois, his home state.

  95. Where’s your evidence that she’s “allying” with the American Spectator? All I’ve seen on that is Marc Ambinder’s unsupported assertion that the campaign is circulating an article from the Spectator.

    Ambinder says that the article was sent to him on the record by Phil Singer from Hillary’s campaign. Singer is quoted in the American Spectator article, too.

  96. I can’t tell if I’m in moderation or not, so if this posts twice, apologies:

    Where’s your evidence that she’s “allying” with the American Spectator? All I’ve seen on that is Marc Ambinder’s unsupported assertion that the campaign is circulating an article from the Spectator.

    Ambinder says that the article was sent to him on the record by Phil Singer from Hillary’s campaign. Singer is quoted in the American Spectator article, too.

  97. Okay. Of course, by your own standards, then Obama was “allying” with Matt Drudge and Free Republic when he accused Clinton of circulating that Somali-garb photo, even after it was debunked.

    We can go back and forth on this all day. They’re politicians, remember?

  98. don’t read the article as saying that Dean “personally told” Reid that “things are being done,” but rather that’s Reid’s opinion of what’s happening behind the scenes.

    We could both parse this I guess. It seems to me to be a huge nonsequiter for him to say those two sentences back to back and them not to be connected, so that’s where I’m coming from. I remember Dean kind of hinting to this himself, but it would take ages to find that link. Thanks for amending your comment to clarify though, I appreciate it. I get a little testy on this, not just because I’m a Hillary supporter but because I think they should stay out of it and let the chips fall where they may. I just don’t buy this whole scenario of “The democratic party will be destroyed if we don’t do something!!!” I think by the time the general election is through and everyone has had a rerun of Rove via McCain they’re going to support either democratic candidate, and most of this will be forgotten, at least by the average voter.

  99. Except Drudge/FR was trashing Obama. You might have a point if Obama’s campaign picked up something Drudge/FR printed trashing Clinton and passed it along.

    The Clinton campaign was very slow to say that no one from her campaign was spreading that photo, and made excuses for how it was ok anyway, that lead a lot of people to believe that her campaign was spreading that pic around. You know that it is much easier to control the message if it is nipped in the bud rather than waiting days upon days when it’s all over the place in “full bloom”.

    I’d like to see the sources for Obama meeting with Scaife too. Somehow I’m doubting that most Democrats would have any expectation that a right wing rag will endorse them and wouldn’t waste their time. Did either campaign meet with the Washington Times for example?

  100. Zuzu,
    Of course a big chunk of his popular vote lead comes from his home state. Quite a bit of Clinton’s popular vote comes from New York. Are we supposed to just ignore his lead because he wouldn’t have it if only Illinois didn’t count? His lead would be even bigger if only New York didn’t count.

    These sort of counterfactuals are f-ing meaningless, and the Clinton camp’s willingness to dismiss certain states and certain demographics as irrelevant is exactly the kind of arrogant, condescending crap that pisses so many people off.

    After all, the one counterfactual that Clinton supporters can imply but never state openly is that if you discount Obama’s overwhelming support from black voters, Clinton would have sown up this election months ago. If only black voters didn’t count, she would trounce Obama in Pennsylvania and beat him in North Carolina.

    Every time a Clinton supporter makes the argument that she would be ahead if only caucuses didn’t count or if only red states didn’t count or if only states open to independents didn’t count, they also call to mind the elephant in the room that they won’t mention; that if, only blacks didn’t count, Clinton would have won by now. And the implication is that that makes her the rightful candidate of the Democratic Party.

  101. Zuzu,
    Could you explain to me how it would be possible, if Barack Obama has the majority of the popular votes and the majority of the pledged delegates going into the convention, for the superdelegates to give Clinton the nomination anyway without permanently alienating African-American voters?

    If the first ever black candidate with a real shot at the White House has more votes and more pledged delegates and is still rejected by the leaders of the Democratic Party in favor of a rich white woman from a well-connected family, how can black voters see that as anything other than a giant Screw You?

  102. Even Yahoo picked it up on its front page today (it’s gone now): “Is Hillary Clinton the Tonya Harding of politics?” GAAAAAH. What could more clearly say, “Impostor who is out of her class, sit down and shut up?”

    I don’t know how you and Liss and Kate Harding stand it, Zuzu. You’d get less of a fight, even from most of your fellow feminists, defending Eva Braun than you do defending HRC.

  103. Except Drudge/FR was trashing Obama. You might have a point if Obama’s campaign picked up something Drudge/FR printed trashing Clinton and passed it along.

    And Obama, by spreading the story that Clinton had been behind it after it was already shown to have come from Drudge/FR, was trashing Clinton. And can you imagine the outcry if she had stated categorically that no one on her campaign had circulated it, and it turned out that some low-level staffer had sent it to a friend on the Obama campaign as a joke?

    Zuzu,
    Could you explain to me how it would be possible, if Barack Obama has the majority of the popular votes and the majority of the pledged delegates going into the convention, for the superdelegates to give Clinton the nomination anyway without permanently alienating African-American voters?

    If the first ever black candidate with a real shot at the White House has more votes and more pledged delegates and is still rejected by the leaders of the Democratic Party in favor of a rich white woman from a well-connected family, how can black voters see that as anything other than a giant Screw You?

    Jay,

    Can you explain to me why it is that you can predict the future so well when the voting is still going on? All of the scenarios you posit simply assume that Obama will have both the popular vote lead as well as the pledged delegate lead. And there’s a lot of time between now and June 3.

    Those pesky voters keep voting for Clinton. Let them keep voting. They’re energized. They want her to continue; they want Obama to continue as well. This is good for the party, and good for democracy.

    As for black voters being angry if the superdelegates decide to go for Clinton: First, it’s really shameful the way that Obama and his supporters have been pushing the idea that the leader of pledged delegates is entitled to the nomination. You win if you get 2025, and he doesn’t, and won’t, have that unless Clinton drops out. Which she won’t, for reasons I’ve explained at length above.

    The same people who screech, “Rules are rules! Rules are rules! Actions have consequences!” when it comes to Florida and Michigan are rather selective. They love the rules that strip those two states of their delegations, but they’re not so fond of the rules that govern the convention. Which are, basically: You are the nominee if you have 2025 pledged delegates going into the convention. Period. If not, all bets are off. The supers can vote any way they want, pledged delegates are only bound for the first round of voting, and the candidates will be making their cases at the convention.

    Live by the rules, die by the rules. But don’t try to rig the game to get the outcome you want.

    And let me ask you this: Just how do you think it will look to women if the first serious female contender for the nomination gets shoved aside before it’s all over, at a time when she’s still winning primaries, so that the party can install a younger, less experienced man? How can that be seen as anything but a giant Screw You?

    And let me ask you this as well: why are you afraid of letting the voters in the remaining primary states have their say?

  104. I don’t know how you and Liss and Kate Harding stand it, Zuzu. You’d get less of a fight, even from most of your fellow feminists, defending Eva Braun than you do defending HRC.

    I’ve been wondering about statements like this. I’ve seen comments like these from alot of Hillary’s supporters. I think there was a thread here where someone said, “Hillary is the favorite punching bag of the right and left”. And I am wondering why do you think that she is best to go up against McCain then? She will bring out the Republicans to vote against her, who would probably stay home since they aren’t thrilled with McCain. And as you all admit large sections of Democrats either aren’t all that thrilled with her/Bill/both and some actively hate her/Bill/both, and how are you going to get them out to vote for her? People vote for someone they feel positive, or might, if they feel neutral about that person but identify with the party. People vote against someone they feel negative about or will sit it out. I think there are alot of people who do not feel negative enough about McCain to vote against him regardless of who the Democratic candidate is, so the Democrats need to have a candidate that people are voting for. If Hillary is worse than Eva Braun among feminists…well she isn’t that candidate, is she?

  105. Since I think that a blind dog on stilts could beat McCain come November based on how the economy and Iraq are currently going, I am having problems with how the Democratic party is bent on punishing Hillary for not being some sort of ideal woman that they can’t define but that she should be able to guess. Since the true base of the Democratic party is women of all races, ethnicities and class associations and a lot of us have dealt with being good on paper, amazing at the interview but somehow still not right for the job, I think that the membership and the leadership really needs to look at the message that it is sending THAT base of voters. Speaking from personal experience, I have been in a mob of female party faithful when they have felt that their party betrayed them. They are like a tsunami taking everything in their path and they don’t have to like her to feel that she is being ill-used for political expediency. People will vote against their better judgement if they think that they are supporting a larger cause. Feminists have a bad habit of blinding themselves to how their message plays with women who do not consider themselves feminists and it is more likely that it will be a statement by a feminist that sets off the tsunami. We expect to be dismissed by the male leadership, it really burns when the female ‘leadership’ is equally dismissive.

    Neither wins without the 2025, the political leadership needs to let the party faithful (including the supers who work hard for the party) decide the fate of the candidates on the floor of the convention as the rules decree. If a convention win was good enough for FDR then it should be good enough for Obama or Clinton. Let the chips fall where they may, the party will be better for it.

  106. Can you explain to me why it is that you can predict the future so well when the voting is still going on? All of the scenarios you posit simply assume that Obama will have both the popular vote lead as well as the pledged delegate lead. And there’s a lot of time between now and June 3.

    Those pesky voters keep voting for Clinton. Let them keep voting.

    yes, they do. but not enough. that’s the problem. she’s not getting enough votes, and likely to get enough votes, to come out ahead at the end in pledged delegates & popular votes.

    once again.

    she needs to win EVERY SINGLE REMAINING STATE by a margin of 2-1. yeah, voters can keep voting for her, but if they don’t vote for her in overwhelming numbers – that would be twice as many as vote for obama – obama comes out ahead in the pledged delegate count.

    that’s why people like jay & i keep talking as if obama had already won. unless he injures himself, or someone else injures him to a catastrophic extent, there is no objective quantitative evidence that clinton will wine each and every remaining state by an average of 2-1.

    and no, winning the majority of pledged delegates is not an automatic entitlement to the nomination. however, for the superdelegates in mass to overturn that, they’re going to have to have a darn good reason.

    especially given the concerns that jay raised in post 98, that the effect of doing that would be to completely alienate the african american portion of the democratic party. that’s a pretty big consequence, with long-term HUGE costs.

    why on earth would they do that? zuzu? i keep asking you. you made a vague reference to explaning over & over “somewhere else” how that could happen. but i’ve not seen one compelling argument anywhere how that would be a justifiable move. how the gains would compensate for the losses.

    should she drop out now? no, i think at this point she should stay in until the primaries all play out, because those of us who haven’t held ours yet want a strong turnout for the effects down ticket. but after the last primary is done? you betcha. get this done in june so obama can turn his energies against mccain – even more than he already has.

    what possible good can come of dragging this out to the floor? what chance does she stand of winning in the end?

    even her own staffer has come forward and acknowledged that her odds at this point are “no more than 10%”. is that what you call a realistic chance?

  107. First, it’s really shameful the way that Obama and his supporters have been pushing the idea that the leader of pledged delegates is entitled to the nomination.

    It’s also the Speaker of the House and a lot of other Democrats saying the same thing. It’s disingenuous to say this is just coming from Obama and his supporters. There’s a lot of shame to go around. As you know, Pelosi refused to back down yesterday in the face of a nasty (thuggish?) letter from Clinton’s biggest donors.

    The reality of this primary is starting to come into focus. It’s pretty clear that the party and (many of) the superdelegates want this contest over as soon as the voting stops. What looks like is going to happen is that when the last primary is over, the superdelegates are going to largely vote for whoever’s in the pledged delegate/popular vote lead and effectively end the race. The Democrats are going to do everything in their power to avoid a floor fight, and this appears to be how they’re going to do it.

  108. I don’t know how you and Liss and Kate Harding stand it, Zuzu. You’d get less of a fight, even from most of your fellow feminists, defending Eva Braun than you do defending HRC.

    What, and no one’s called Godwin’s Law on this thread?

    Fine, I’ll call it.

  109. His lead would be even bigger if only New York didn’t count.

    Exactly. I mean, isn’t that exactly why Clinton ran for Senate in New York, anyway (as in, it has a high delegate count for a “home state”)?

    Do home states not count?

  110. And I am wondering why do you think that she is best to go up against McCain then?

    I don’t know if she is or not. Frankly, I’m still undecided (my first choice, Edwards, dropped out) and my state does not vote for two more months. I do know that no man who trailed at this point in the contest by less than 200 delegates and still led by considerable margins in some contests still remaining would be told by officials of his own party to siddown and STFU. And it bugs me, like it does Zuzu, than even on a feminist blog one would get raked over the coals for noticing.

    What, and no one’s called Godwin’s Law on this thread?

    OK, make it Squeaky Fromme rather than Eva Braun, then. Lorena Bobbitt. Wev. Point still stands.

  111. Yes but it really is true that her chance of winning 65 to 70% of the vote in the remaining primaries is miniscule, she has no chance of winning enough delegates or enough of the popular vote to catch up to Obama. Thats why people are telling her to “siddown and STFU”. And it’s pretty disingenuous to say you want to wait for all the other primary results, when you don’t want them to really matter, when you are hoping that the superdelegates will vote against the results.

  112. But if they want this whole thing to be “over” in February, why keep having primaries in May and June, then? Why not just have one winner-take-all primary day in February and the convention in March, and that’s that? I can tell you right now that if my state’s vote in late May actually matters, that makes voters here more energized and interested in the process and the issues, not less. If the primary vote in the later states is just one big yawn, just a technicality, then who cares?

    I am not sure why people are in such a hurry to coronate a winner. Obama, if he is the winner, is going to find out that Clinton is tickling him with a feather duster compared to what the Republicans plan on doing to him. I, for one, am in no rush to see that start.

    (And incidentally, just today Clinton came out and told a Democratic audience flat-outnot to vote for McCain under any circumstances, so please let’s bag the “she’s a secret Republican OMG!!11!!” nonsense already. “He only has a speech from 2002” was a dumb-ass thing to say, but it’s also been wildly decontextualized. And believe me, once the Rethugs start in on him, “Barack Obama is a nice young man who is out of his depth as commander in chief” is not going to BEGIN to describe the hatchet job they have in mind.)

    Besides, superdelegates “voting against the results” is really a matter of interpretation. Do they go by popular vote, or by the total number of states won, or polling trends in potential swing states, or something else? There is no explicit formula stating exactly how the supers should vote. Which is why I hate superdelegates and think this entire formula for choosing nominees is just complete insanity. But it’s the one we’ve got right now, and as they say in baseball, you gotta play all nine and more if there’s a tie.

  113. Predicting how the superdelegates will turn is like predicting the direction that a herd of cats will take- each will take the path that they like. I personally would not consider either candidate as having WON the nomination unless this goes to the convention. I just wish that people would stop harping on how bad this is for the party (it isn’t) and remember that the system is actually working as designed. Two strong candidates are reflecting their bases and as they get farther along the process we are learning more and more about them.
    I predicted that they would tell her to shut up and STFU months ago and for the same reasons- she is standing in the way of the guy and her shadow might touch him and take the shine off his halo or he might get cooties or something. She doesn’t eat babies and he doesn’t bath in virgin’s milk- they are capable politicians backed by elite party members who, it appears, hate each other with a passion deeper than the ocean.

  114. I actually am hoping for a floor fight. It will definitely be more entertaining to political junkies like me than the last two lovefests we’ve had.

    Clinton will be in my city tomorrow, and I am going to try like hell to see her.

  115. And the convention starts the day after the Olympics end, I may have to get a portable TV this summer.

  116. More than anything else, I will not vote for Hillary Clinton in the general election for this reason:

    She is not even loyal to her own family.

    I say this because she gave an interview – and not just an interview, a ninety minute mini-press conference! – to the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. Not only is this paper about on a level with the Washington Times for being a right-wing rag, it is owned and published by Richard Mellon Scaife, the man who funded the “vast right-wing conspiracy” that nearly destroyed her husband’s presidency!

    Someone who will so willingly consort with the enemy (literally) is not someone who should be President. Period. If she’s the Democratic nominee I will vote for Ralph Nader, or the Libertarian Candidate. But I will never, ever vote for Hillary Clinton. I was becoming less and less happy with her over the last few weeks, but this?

    No. No. Ten thousand times no. If she had any character or any sense of decency, she would not so much as spit in Richard Mellon Scaife’s direction, let alone give a ninety minute video interview to his newspaper.

  117. OK… with regard to FL and Michigan. I agree that the “rules” were broken. That being said, I’m getting sick and tired of folks acting like FL and Michigan are some random glob things that chose to ignore the rules, so they should just suck it up and deal with the consequences. The legislatures of the two states chose to ignore the rules — not the people of those two states.

    The voting public had no say in the matter. The voting public are being disenfranchised. Period.

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