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Define/perpetuate

Lisa–as usual–has already devoted many paragraphs to responding to this post, but I’m adding my contribution here, because I read this comment and sorta went, “Hm.”

Here is my position in a nutshell:
1. Transwomen are people (yep! “people”) that have made some sort of *change* to be considered (trans) “women”
2. To have transitioned is to have supported the message that links what our bodies are to how we express them. That, to me, is gender. (That those expressions, however, oftentimes have binary influence-influence not carbon copy- is no accident.)
3. I don’t want body parts “expressible” (maybe you do? or don’t care either way)
To “express” womanhood/being a “woman” is to further define/perpetuate how those with the status of “woman” under Status Quo Norms should act or behave and, thusly, what people expect from them (for obvious reasons, you didn’t become trans to be considered translisa). Any positive re-enforcement of this, afaic, is problematic and oppressive.
4. I recognize that my latter points are not appreciated by transpersons so I’m not going to go out of my way (across seas, lots of expense) to say those things to transpersons who already have a hard enough time with conservative values. Contrary to typical conflation radfems are not conservatives–our positions are wholly different and you are smart enough to discern.
5. All I would like, wrt to trans exclusive spaces, are enough places I may go, in one lifetime, on one hand, that allow me to speak comfortably about the points presented above.
6. I will always question the motives of trans who can in one breath call me transphobic (or bigot, or fundamentalist) and then ask “So can I come?”

This argument–“Trans have surgery because they want to be women, so they reify gender categories!” is very common one.

I think it’s twisted around a little. It’s sort of like saying that lesbians sleep with women because they want to be lesbians. They are called lesbians because they want to sleep with women.

Transsexual women, broadly speaking, feel discomfort with their assigned genders. Most of them talk about their bodies, while others talk about presentation cues and behaviors and all sorts of other fraught things. When speaking for the aggregate, it is–as the same commenter later says–typical to speak vaguely, because people have different specific ideas about all of this. But it’s not a political discontent; it’s discontent with a politicized state. They change, and do so in a society–theirs, ours–that politicizes that change and attaches many different meanings to it.

They say they are women because what they are is women. Transition changes their lives in a way that we all describe as a sex change: movement from one recognized category into a different one, from “man” to “woman.” Sorta like “straight” and “lesbian.” Saying that they are not women is objectionable because it ignores the dimensions of their lives and the social reality they deal with, not because trans politics posits some essential quality of sex–a magical metaphysical vagina?–that transwomen possess or attain once they have surgery.


78 thoughts on Define/perpetuate

  1. (I just posted over there so I saw this link and have but a *minute* to clarify.)

    ”Trans have surgery because they want to be women, so they reify gender categories!”

    That’s not exactly it and the difference, however tedious, is important: I recognize that it’s not trans saying I want to be “women” necessarily but that it can also mean, as Lisa over there asserted, “born into the wrong body.”
    However, once someone says categorically they want to be considered a “woman” and with that comes changes in behavior, or physical externalities, or dress, or gesture, or voice, or any other combination of attributes that females are often oppressed for or forced into from birth there *is*, in fact, a message there that re-enforces or says, once again, this *is* womanhood (the kind created by and for men).

    “Saying that they are not women is objectionable ”

    Hopefully you are not assigning this line of thinking to me as I explicitly said there I would not say trans are “not women.”

    (and that, people of all sexes and genders, is all I got for now. Really couldn’t be a more swell time for one of my comments to be posted on a heavily trafficked blog without hide nor hair of the time to at least defend it and all the misreadings I’m sure it will rack up.
    Shit storm ensue…)

  2. That original posy by pisaquari is completely ridiculous. I was so impressed that she honesty reflected on the way that her political positions as a feminist were challenged by transpeople – but to conclude that the result should be excluding transpeople, not rethinking her politics… that took me off guard. I’ve never really seen such a nakedly ideological justification for transphobia, or really, such baldly authoritarian argumentation in any context (this challenges my belief system so I’m going to acknowledge it but ignore it anyway).

  3. I love how she says she needs ‘trans exclusive places” where she and other like-minded individuals can talk about trans* folk, transition, and our supposed “politics”.

    If we have trans* politics that supposedly all trans*folk believe in or support (or even just trans*activists–as some folk are trying to label us as), then why whenever various topics (like ftm-spectrum folk or trans*men in womens-spaces, stealth, choosing to forgo medical transition, cis* vs bio, the importance of gender roles, etc) show up in trans* forums there is always such argument?
    We’re communities made of of groups of people with some similar experiences. Even just looking at those of us that see our trans*ism as a medical condition–we are just a group of people whose only common factor is what we see as a medical condition.

    To me, arguing about “the politics of transgender” is like arguing about the “politics of gay”. Neither is grammatically correct (gay people or transgender people).
    Seriously, sure you can say you aren’t against gay people.
    But when you assign a whole ideology to a group, and ideology that many or most group members disagree with, that’s not actually being against their. politics it’s against this straw-group’s straw-politics.
    Or if you start questioning something that is considered fundamental to that group like “gay sex” or transition (no, not everyone in those groups do it and it isn’t fundamental to all individuals, bu to the group as a whole it is) you are still questioning the group itself.
    Sure, question aspects of sex or sexuality between two folks of the same gender (with queer folk participating). Sure, question why so many trans*folk feel they must present as gender normative or why some hbs women (who’ve transitioned but do not identify as trans*-anything) believe that you can’t be a woman without and until you have “the surgery” (again, trans*people should be there).
    It is not for straight folk or anyone to question why gay people wish to have sex with the person(s) of their choosing. It is not for cis*folk or anyone to question why trans* folk wish to do whatever it is each individual needs to do to feel comfortable in their body or interacting with other people.

  4. Good grief, what a hateful woman.

    Piny, she kinda reminds me of those misogynists that perform mental yoga to try to deny being misogynists, not to mention projecting their issues onto those they hate. Same thing with racists, homophobes, etc (it actually came off as remarkably similar to those anti-same-sex-marriage bigots that try to find some non-religious reason to prop up their bigotries).

    Just reeks of post-hoc justification.

  5. I’ll take this kind of thing seriously if I ever see anyone applying the same argument, with the same level of venom, to non-trans people that also get up every morning and express themselves in various ways that end up, whether they like it or not, putting them into various pigeonholes in the system of gender. Until then it’s just scapegoating trans people as an easy target. After then, I suspect it would be revealed as involving some pretty harsh and punishing prescriptions for how people interact with our society’s systems of gender.

    Almost everyone ends up having to make some kind of bargain with gender, even as an outsider (and many, many trans people are outsiders) — everyone has to find some point of purchase on these slippery slopes. The less you can do that, the more the system will oppress you for not meeting gender standards. Again, it’s often trans people, as well as other gender non-conforming folks from butch dykes to flaming faggots to genderqueer refuseniks who bear that brunt. It’s like capitalism, and excoriating people who capitalism considers rejects for trying to get a job and make ends meet: it’s ridiculous to talk about “all trans people” or even “everyone who transitions” as if there’s a common experience of loving gender, embracing gender, wanting to support systems of gender. No. N. O. Wrong, incorrect. What there is, if anything, is a common experience of getting pushed around by gendered expectations, gendered rules, gendered categories — and that’s something that every woman has some experience with as well. How people respond to that crap varies a whole lot, but “transition” is not just one thing either.

  6. I still have radical feminist sympathies, but this kind of thing has really turned me off. To take these kind of arguments to their logical conclusion and be consistent, they would have to also say that no one is really heterosexual or homosexual.

    The original post sounds a lot more like rationalizing her discomfort than good feminist theory. The same thing was done to lesbian women in the past, and it’s never been right.

  7. all the misreadings I’m sure it will rack up.

    *eyeroll* No, really, it’s all there for the reading.

    Bit of a straw pile you are working with there, innit.

    *reads* Nope, I can’t exactly see where the straw is, but I do see that 800-lb. elephant right over there. Perhaps you’re addressing the steaming pile from that.

  8. Yeah. Radfem transphobia. Sucks.
    Er, why do you want to discuss transpeople without them being there? For a *feminist* to say that…how would you respond if some entitled male politician said “Now girls, stay away while the men discuss women’s issues”?
    I can see why the radfems imagine that transpeople perpetuate gender stereotypes. I can see that some people who are “just” butch or camp may be pressured into thinking they are trans, but I bet that is a tiny minority of those who undergo surgery.
    Yeah: feeling you are born in the wrong body…so that you view your own body with disgust…you can’t ask anyone to live with that. To deny that experience is as cruel as those who silence women’s voices and experiences, tell them what they are.
    To put it bluntly: feeling that you were born with a dick and should not have been, or born with a vagina and should not have been, does *not* imply *any* aspect of personality, temperament or anything else to do with gender. Biological sex. I’m not so much a gender abolitionist, as a “who gives a &*(& what gender you are?” – ist; everyone should do what they want to do, and not suffer any prejudice or discrimination for not being masculine/ feminine enough, *but* I believe that on average, as groups, there are some differences between the sexes. Not particularly important ones – of course, as a society a few simple biological differences re: hormones are reified into some stupid gender constructs. And again, *group differences do not tell you anything about individuals*.
    Most transpeople are in fact some degree of “intersex” i.e. *biologically* not really male or female. Such conditions are often not talked about due to stigma. It’s possible that most were “assigned” a sex and perhaps even had surgery as infants, and grow up feeling that sex is wrong.
    It’s inhuman to deny this experience.
    As for excluding transwomen…wrong. Wrong. Anyone who feels “unsafe” or “silenced” in their company has got freaking issues. *They are not men*, duh, *that’s why they transitioned!* This argument is saying “men all cannot help being entitled, priveleged, raving beasts” – biological essentialism if I ever saw it.

  9. However, once someone says categorically they want to be considered a “woman” and with that comes changes in behavior, or physical externalities, or dress, or gesture, or voice, or any other combination of attributes that females are often oppressed for or forced into from birth there *is*, in fact, a message there that re-enforces or says, once again, this *is* womanhood (the kind created by and for men).

    Okay. I see what you’re saying. But like Holly says, why are these “externalities” different when transwomen do them? Why are they an affirmative assertion about womanhood rather than the reactions of women to the pressures women face?

  10. (and that, people of all sexes and genders, is all I got for now. Really couldn’t be a more swell time for one of my comments to be posted on a heavily trafficked blog without hide nor hair of the time to at least defend it and all the misreadings I’m sure it will rack up.
    Shit storm ensue…)

    Doop de doo…

    I appreciate that you’re feeling a little overwhelmed, but…if you take on a long discussion between a bunch of different people, one that touches on a lot of dearly-held ideas and defining experiences, why would you expect anything different from what happened? And given the likelihood that the internets might latch on to your two cents, why would you write an opinion that by your own belated admission isn’t built on much firsthand knowledge of any of these discussions? Go with my best wishes, but you do make me wonder whyyou pretended to care in the first place.

    Your flamewar–and really, this sounds more like a whimper than a bang to me–can’t be laid at my feet. I didn’t go playing word games unworthy of Powerline with your post.

  11. It’s like capitalism, and excoriating people who capitalism considers rejects for trying to get a job and make ends meet.

    That is so smart, Holly. *Analogy of the Day*

  12. blah dee blah dee blah…..attributes that females are often oppressed for or forced into from birth there *is*, in fact, a message there that re-enforces or says, once again, this *is* womanhood (the kind created by and for men).

    It is not trans people’s job to redefine gender roles.

    I can understand she is not comfortable talking about the need to remove gender roles entirely around trans people, who have fought so hard to conform in every way possible to their brain’s gender in a way that fits society’s standards, since she’s supposedly against those standards.

    But what a fucking coward. “OMG somebody might JUDGE me because I hate gender! Oh no!”

  13. I can’t believe that wank is still going on. It’s to the point where all I can think of is: Someone is WRONG on the internet.

    You’d think that, since this is a frequent wank, some of the repeat wankers would eventually learn the meaning behind some of the terminology they’re disputing (“transphobia” is a big one, and the lack of them being able to distinguish between what someone means when they say “gender identity” versus “gender role” is another one). But then again I’m approaching this as if it’s a discussion, and not the transphobic/cissexist feminists wanting to prove to all the transfeminists (and allies) how wrong they are for wanting transwomen to be seen as women.

  14. because, friends, women-born-women never perpetuate gender stereotypes or anything.

    what the fuck.

  15. I’ve been talking to Pisa on my blog, so I don’t have a lot to say here that I shouldn’t post there, but I just want to clarify:

    If I said “wrong body,” I shouldn’t have. I don’t like the phrase “born into the wrong body,” or “trapped in the wrong body” or “woman trapped in a man’s body/man trapped in a woman’s body,” because they all imply that the body is somehow not a part of me, but alien to me.

    It is true that in many ways, my body was alien to me, but it was still my body. I had to change it to be be comfortable in my own skin.

    Thebewilderness, those who live in straw houses shouldn’t light the first match. You don’t even have room to complain about the merest possibility that someone might have misunderstood one word in a long post – “to be honest.”

    Imagine that, dismissing an entire post do to one phrase based on a meaning you decided to apply to it. Yeah, please, recalibrate your irony meter, you’re breaking mine.

  16. You don’t even have room to complain about the merest possibility that someone might have misunderstood one word in a long post – “to be honest.”

    ZOMG! You TOTALLY JUST LIED, LISA! WTFZOMGBBQ!

    /snark

  17. But don’t transwomen grow up like women who were born female? I would think so, since trans people seem to develop into the opposite sex. So transwomen are just expressing what they had to hide all their lives when they, say, wear makeup and dresses and take hormones and get reassignment surgery. Transwomen grew up in the same society as I did. Why should anyone, especially a feminist, be blaming them for perpetuating any possibly oppressive gender stereotype? There isn’t a feminist woman in this country who isn’t adhering to some gender roles (male or female). I just don’t want the things that I do to be attributed to my femaleness and, thus, held against me and considered inferior. I don’t think the role is as big of a problem as the strings attached to it.

    I find it interesting that someone who considers themselves to be a radical feminist would be so bent out of shape about transwomen embracing their womanhood. It’s almost as if this person has a problem with women. Women get enough shit for having breasts and vaginas and wearing pretty clothes from the patriarchy. We don’t need it coming from feminists too.

  18. “But like Holly says, why are these “externalities” different when transwomen do them?”

    They aren’t different. I speak out against gender on all levels–no free passes here. The issue for me is understanding trans as it relates to radical feminism (which was a concern brought up at Lisa’a) since that is my creed of choice.

    “Why are they an affirmative assertion about womanhood rather than the reactions of women to the pressures women face?”

    I don’t get this question.

    “why would you expect anything different from what happened? [yeah, all this]”

    I’m no more in the business of “expecting” what posts will be the all the rage of the Transphobia Chronicles than I am responsible for the litany of people who somehow expect some sort of response amongst the-now quite large and diverse- “pisaquari is a bigot” posse.
    Needless to say I addressed Lisa specifically, and not soon after I invited e-mail discussion privately (because I said I hadn’t the time to address everything with the thought I wanted) do you post this knowingly inviting a flame and further showcasing what little I (or any single person) can offer to an issue I *do* find important.

    If you want to know what I *really* think (but who can ever really know with such a fake and phony?) I’m betting you knew very well you could collect up the echo chamber here and did so in spite of any positive potential the thread at QT was bearing.

    You did not, in fact, say “Hm” when you read those lines–what you said was “This will go great for my afternoon stroll down Ego Boost Lane wherein a bunch of people come to the same conclusion as me.”

    Which, hey great, we all have those days.

    But don’t pretend it was in any other effort besides knowingly and happily entertaining the zoo.

  19. “I just don’t want the things that I do to be attributed to my femaleness and, thus, held against me and considered inferior.”

    I think this is the originally badly articulated problem – this supposed “radfem” thinks that trans women are doing things that society attributes to females on purpose in order to fit in as women and disapproves… ? She doesn’t understand that trans women may not even want to do many “feminine” things, they just are women.
    Ah willful ignorance…

  20. Ah this old chestnut.

    My response to that comment is a blunt “As opposed to practically everybody else? Why is this critique not applied more strongly to gender normative straight people, or crunchy radical feminists for that matter, all of whom gain more and risk less from their gender presentations?”

    Trans people who identify as male or female do reify categories of gender, in so far as we fit one category or another

    However, depending on our appearance, we do not necessarily fit easily in them, and even if we do, we can be instantly removed from said category as soon as we’re outed. “Really” a man or woman.

    People who don’t transition however, reify the categories even more strongly. Because, beginning in a category, and not only staying it but ACTIVELY DEFENDING ITS BOUNDARIES AGAINST TRANS PEOPLE is fucking reifying it.

    Tell me again exactly how if you draw a boundary against transitioning or even genderqueer states you’re not reifying a category yourself? You’re strengthening the categories. There’s nothing very unusual about that, but it’s patently ludicrous that this critique be only and ever applied to trans* people.

    Trans people who transition break the notion that gender is a once-and-forever deal, and this problematises not just gender categories but gender as a whole far more than any radical feminist throwing-off-the-shackles-of-Patriarchy dissension.

    There’s a bloody reason why non-trans* written queer theory uses us as a rhetorical model for the end of gender, even if they often get it wrong.

  21. They aren’t different. I speak out against gender on all levels–no free passes here. The issue for me is understanding trans as it relates to radical feminism (which was a concern brought up at Lisa’a) since that is my creed of choice.

    Except that they are. You’re asking transwomen to bear your discomfort and their own: they have to be “factually male” when they might draw some support and security from women’s spaces, but they have to be indistinguishable from cissexual women when they’re confronting barriers unique to their own histories. It’s a double bind that makes it impossible for transwomen to either describe their personal motives or defend against the imperatives of so many others.

    But anyway, you’re pretty much done pretending to have a discussion with any of the “posse,” aren’t you:

    I’m no more in the business of “expecting” what posts will be the all the rage of the Transphobia Chronicles than I am responsible for the litany of people who somehow expect some sort of response amongst the-now quite large and diverse- “pisaquari is a bigot” posse.
    Needless to say I addressed Lisa specifically, and not soon after I invited e-mail discussion privately (because I said I hadn’t the time to address everything with the thought I wanted) do you post this knowingly inviting a flame and further showcasing what little I (or any single person) can offer to an issue I *do* find important.

    If you want to know what I *really* think (but who can ever really know with such a fake and phony?) I’m betting you knew very well you could collect up the echo chamber here and did so in spite of any positive potential the thread at QT was bearing.

    You did not, in fact, say “Hm” when you read those lines–what you said was “This will go great for my afternoon stroll down Ego Boost Lane wherein a bunch of people come to the same conclusion as me.”

    Which, hey great, we all have those days.

    But don’t pretend it was in any other effort besides knowingly and happily entertaining the zoo.

    Oh, sweet merciful Christ. Then is that all this has been to you? An intellectual exercise? Posturing? A little amen corner of the internet I fire up whenever Torchwood is taking a little too long to find on bittorrent? I was happy to have this political discussion with a bunch of politically-oriented people, but maybe what belledame keeps repeating really does bear repeating: IT’S OUR LIVES YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT HERE. It’s not a game to me, or to any of these people. And no matter how intent you are on pretending that we’re all here to make your virtual life more difficult, no matter how much you want to pretend that this isn’t a natural response to a damn personal issue, none of this is either a show for your benefit or a routine for mine.

    Like I said, feel free to back away now. If anyone wants to have these long discussions over email, hey: good luck to them! But don’t act like people don’t have the right to respond to what you said in the context you said it, or to alter the terms of a discussion for your benefit just because it’s getting a little intense for you. Or because a bunch of “trans activists” just happen to strongly believe that you’re wrong.

  22. I’m no more in the business of “expecting” what posts will be the all the rage of the Transphobia Chronicles than I am responsible for the litany of people who somehow expect some sort of response amongst the-now quite large and diverse- “pisaquari is a bigot” posse.

    Boo fucking hoo. You know what you wrote. We all read it. Quit acting like we’re at fault for reading it. Seriously. GO BACK TO YOUR ORIGINAL POST. Are you this dense?

  23. And need I remind you, you have done little but defend your original post, and then acted like “WHAT THE FUCK, PEOPLE ARE HOLDING ME TO WHAT I WROTE! WHAT JERKS!”

    You have little to go on if you want to keep claiming that dialogue is what you truly, deeply, really desire. I don’t believe one word that you say.

  24. Then is that all this has been to you? An intellectual exercise? Posturing?

    Well, it could be “theorizing” as Heart likes to do about Radical Women of Color (read:Women of color are oppressing white women, ZOMG!). Which I think was one of the points made in Lisa’s original post.

  25. Tell me again exactly how if you draw a boundary against transitioning or even genderqueer states you’re not reifying a category yourself?

    *Waves hands vigorously* You do not see the Radfem behind the curtain. There is no spoon. Yada fucking yada.

  26. But don’t pretend it was in any other effort besides knowingly and happily entertaining the zoo.

    And honestly, what can be more encapsuling than this statement? We’re a zoo! Ooo ooo aah aah!

    Genius, PissPisaquari! Genius.

  27. At least she didn’t say anything about the inmates running the asylum.

    Like I said, she is free to leave this discussion whenever she pleases–and she’s apparently made that decision. But I don’t see any reason to ignore all the parts of it that are inconvenient or unfamiliar to her just because they are.

    Anyway. Banana?

    However, depending on our appearance, we do not necessarily fit easily in them, and even if we do, we can be instantly removed from said category as soon as we’re outed. “Really” a man or woman.

    I think that–especially with the betes noires examples, like say Raymond–a lot of these kinds of arguments depend on flat-out ignoring the ways in which a “surgically constructed” female body just isn’t as good, for purposes of teh heteropatriarchy, as the “normal,” “natural,” “real” kind. Because if that were acknowledged, then transition wouldn’t just emerge in the calculus as a major destabilizing phenomenon, one that brings a raft of shit down on the people involved. It would force a new challenge onto the people making the analyses. If this division is a major part of the oppressive ways we’ve learned to sex bodies, how then can language like “SCAM” be a critique rather than a reification?

  28. You know what, there are three main reasons why trans*folk, especially at first, often try to act or act very gender-normative.
    One: they are actually like that–they’re a feminine trans*woman or a masculine trans*man.
    Two: Second adolescence; transition (with or without hormones) is a second puberty. Pre-teens and teenagers often try to be very normative because they have to discover what being a ‘man’ or a ‘woman’ is for them and oftentimes they take things to the extremes (hence why many13 year old boys swagger and disavow anything perceived as feminine and the girls care so much about their make-up and clothes).
    Three: We have to work twice as hard to get half the credit. No really, if I grow my hair out more than a couple inches I magically stop passing. If I paint my nails–even just dark blue or black–I stop passing as a cis*guy. The cur of my pants and how I part my hair alters my gender cues enough to make people misgender me. Early on in transition–or for the rest of our lives if we don’t pass as a cissexual member of our gender–we often have to force ourselves to fit into the box just so we don’t get harassed for being trans* or have our gender questioned (harassed can be anything from being called a shemale to murdered and questioned can be anything from “are you a man or a woman” to getting kicked out of the bathroom).

  29. About that echo chamber thing, er, what does it mean when you only want to talk about the politics and problems you see with medical transition around like-minded people?

    Also, what Piny said about how trans bodies are not seen as valuable as cis bodies. Heck, the crux of the argument that we don’t belong in women-only spaces is the idea that our bodies would be triggering.

  30. It’s humiliating that feminists keep having to have these arguments. To pick just one of the more jaw-dropping statements:

    6. I will always question the motives of trans who can in one breath call me transphobic (or bigot, or fundamentalist) and then ask “So can I come?”

    Can anyone at this late date really be so obtuse as to resurrect that line? Haven’t we all heard it before?

    From groups that exclude women: ‘And I will always question the motives of women who can in one breath call me a sexist & then ask “So can I come”?’

    The US military: ‘And I will always question the motives of homosexuals who can in one breath call me a homophone & then ask “So can I come”?’

    Lester Maddox’s chicken joint: ‘And I will always question the motives of black people who can in one breath call me a racist & then ask “So can I come”?’

    Anti-immigrant zealots: ‘And I will always question the motives of immigrants who can in one breath call me a nativist & then ask “So can I come”?’

    Etc.

    What seems to have eluded Pisaquaririse & her various forerunners is that there are good reasons to resist invidious exclusion even if the agents of exclusion aren’t individually the sort decent people want to associate with.

  31. I’ll take this kind of thing seriously if I ever see anyone applying the same argument, with the same level of venom, to non-trans people that also get up every morning and express themselves in various ways that end up, whether they like it or not, putting them into various pigeonholes in the system of gender.

    Hi, have you ever read the comments to any feminist blog?

    Yay fighting transphobia, boo disingenuously pretending that self-styled rad-fems don’t give cisgendered femmes a metric ton of shit (much of it deserved).

  32. boo disingenuously pretending that self-styled rad-fems don’t give cisgendered femmes a metric ton of shit

    That is a good point, but…

    (much of it deserved)

    How so? Being chastised for conforming to the “gender” you feel you are is a little insipid if you believe that “gender” does not exist. Right? Or incorrect?

  33. Yay fighting transphobia, boo disingenuously pretending that self-styled rad-fems don’t give cisgendered femmes a metric ton of shit (much of it deserved).

    I’m not sure anyone said that, though. The point isn’t just who they embrace or who they criticize; it’s about who they consider women and who they exclude accordingly. To them, transwomen are not authentic women, which is why they aren’t invited to the party. As much as I might get shit for my make-up and high heels, no one questions my identity or tells me that I’m not welcome. There’s a difference between giving people shit for gender conformity and not respecting or recognizing their very identities because of their gender.

    Which of course isn’t to give a pass to the kind of judgmentalism that’s piled on cisgendered femmes, just to say that it’s not nearly as cruel or harmful. At least not from my angle.

  34. That’s why I put in the phrase “with the same level of venom.” Ire is targeted only at some people who are participating in gender even though practically everyone who doesn’t make a deliberate effort to look like a clone from THX-1138 is supporting, reifying, and propping up gender with their own appearance, behavior, voice, without ever thinking twice about it. The categories of people who are scapegoated for this are just more obvious targets, and therein lies the hypocrisy. They include trans people, any woman who is “too feminine,” sex workers, people who enact or play with gender roles as part of their sexual or dating practices, etc.

    The hypocritical fantasy is that somehow certain dealings-with-gender are more filthy or impure or signal that really, a person must love and embrace gender and gendered oppression. It’s like pretending that buying Ben & Jerry’s ice cream or a MacBook is more ethically sound and makes you a better person than buying Haagen Daaz or a Dell — dude, it’s all capitalism and profiteering. So when you boil down, it’s largely just an exercise in auto-backpatting — folks who rant about this kind of thing need to get the log out of their own eye before they go around trying to pluck motes out of others’. It’s a variety of hypocrisy that’s more damaging to the cause of feminism than most — sure, why not splinter everyone based on how we all attempt to cope with the fact that we are forced to live with gender one way or another and instead, just massage our battered selves by pretending that there’s one true way that will keep us pure and above it all. Well, that does explain the smug and self-satisfied tone that often accompanies this crap.

    Plus, with trans people especially there seems to be this bizzare assumption that we are inherently more gender-conforming and more comfortable with gender, because we have had to deliberately take action to deal with our own assigned place in a gender system. It’s unclear what the better alternative is — not taking any action? Being content with your place? Oh wait, that’s right — trans people, by dint of having a lot of personal misery tied up in this stuff, ought to be the ones exposing ourselves even further by taking steps that deliberately place us outside gendered systems. You know, if trans people weren’t already doing that, I don’t think we would have the epidemic of trans murders, joblessness, homelessness, discrimination, and harassment that we do. It’s galling to tell a population of people who are scrabbling for some kind of foothold in a gender system that repeatedly refuses them that they should march off to the front lines and be the first to die in a stand against gender norms. That’s already happening, and to simply promote it in the name of “yay, defy gender,” especially if you are relatively privileged when it comes to being targeted for violating gender norms, is more or less like being an armchair general 80 miles behind the lines sending the rank-and-file off to perish in the trenches.

    Also, what Jill just said. Thanks, Jill!

  35. As a Trassexual woman, I will let the world, women, lesbians, and anyone else have it their way…. I am an “IT” !!!

    Is everyone comfortable?

    Now that has been settled, we can go onto how it is that so many seem to have difficulty over others and what they might be, or not be? What possible affect do I have on anyone else’s sexuality or gender? I do not care about others and what they may be, or what they may feel they need to be. I do not get it? I guess I do not have a need to get it, as what others may decide are the limits or fringe are their own views, and I do not need to be constrained by them.

    Back to the subject, definition of woman, trans-woman, lesbian, and what ever… it is subjective!

    Every ten minutes a child is born, 1/2500, in which the doctor cannot determine the sex, or gender. These children are Intersex; they are born into a life of not male or female. Likewise in similar fashion the Transsexual is identified with a Bioneurological congenital condition they too are locked into something not quite so clearly defined as male, or female. The best we can do is live as close to what we seem to believe we are. That may preclude the wants, and often ignorant and bigoted beliefs of others. In what case do we ignore this issue and abandon the children who now cannot hide? How can anyone continue in hate and prejudice so as to deny simple equality and justice? It is either time for change and understanding, or simply wheedle out the transgender element as inhuman and adopt the final solution as Hitler visualized? Not an easy thing to resolve, but one that is present and will not go away.

    I can appreciate another’s opinion, and the freedom to express same, But I would hope they would be with regard to the children, teens, and emerging adults, and all who are not so fortunate to have been born by someone’s idea of “normal.”

    Gosh, ….. do we suppose that “normal” is also subjective?

    Going back to the subject, perhaps my position of just wanting to be normal is the reason I find general society, and the GLBt as equally insecure in their identity. Hence, their continuation of fear and codification of the Transgender as the problem. Thank God I can shape shift and slide with stealth though all of the BS and get away from it all.

  36. Having a similar conversation with my girlfriend last night after reading this article on fworduk There’s a part of me that as a person wh doesn’t really feel like they have a gender apart from the one society imposes on me and as a feminist is uncomfortable with how much many transwomen don’t just seem to be using socieities gender norms to provide cues to society but appear to wholly buy into them. But I do understand that this just my perception as non-trans and hey we are all operating within a flawed system.

    I can see the need for some genetically and socially raised as women spaces, in the same way I think there’s a need for people of colour spaces, or male spaces, or trans spaces; there is always a need for a safe place where you can express concerns that are unique to that group.

    That said I don’t think that all or even most or even many women spaces need to be spaces only open to women who have always been identified by others as female. Though I can see why and how one can be uncomfortable being your radical feminist self amongst transwomen without denying or having an issue with the fact that they are women. A great many non-transwomen women are raised to be more submissive, less outspoken etc because they are being raised according to socieities rules that women and girls have less right to express themselves. Transwomen are being raised to believe that their voices have a right to be heard (which is awesome because they do, obviously) but it does have the consequence that often transwomen will debate in style that many non-trans women identify as gendered male and as oppressive, which is not conducive to consciousness raising, feeling like its a safe space etc.

    (I know these are generalisations about women//transwomen / people etc, I am basing my statements purely on my experiences as the girlfriend of a transitioning transwoman/ queer activist and radfem. Being uncomfortable and challenged by gender issues raised by trans issues does not make me not supportive of transpeople and their fight against the terrible daily strugles and indignaties that they are forced to endure.

  37. Yay fighting transphobia, boo disingenuously pretending that self-styled rad-fems don’t give cisgendered femmes a metric ton of shit (much of it deserved).

    But this isn’t just about being femme or feminine, like Jill says. That’s kind of the issue right there: there’s this huge double standard around the level of gendered behavior and affinity that gets policed. A transwoman who wants to be able to use the ladies’ is reifying gender, trying too hard; a ciswoman somehow isn’t.

  38. Also, there’s another factor to consider. Transwomen who fail to be feminine or conventionally female enough–in the same totally self-serving, fluctuating sense of the term the patriarchy likes to employ whenever girls aren’t insecure enough–are also scrutinized and derided as false or failed women. Not as unconventional women, exactly, either–they don’t get the affirmative solid ground of butch. And as these discussions just keep proving, that happens when radfems talk about trans, too. That makes femininity fraught in a different way for transwomen.

  39. There’s a part of me that as a person wh doesn’t really feel like they have a gender apart from the one society imposes on me and as a feminist is uncomfortable with how much many transwomen don’t just seem to be using socieities gender norms to provide cues to society but appear to wholly buy into them. But I do understand that this just my perception as non-trans and hey we are all operating within a flawed system.

    As do a large percentage of cisgendered women and men. Why call out trans women as somehow more responsible? Treating it as something that’s inherent to being trans is prejudicial and hateful, based on stereotypes and a kind of woman-shaming or victim blaming.

  40. Contrary to typical conflation radfems are not conservatives–our positions are wholly different and you are smart enough to discern.

    I like to think that I’m pretty smart, but I’m apparently not smart enough to distinguish between her take on transpeople and that of your typical conservative.

  41. From the two transwomen I have known, they said they had to act extra-feminine because in the US you are supposed to live and behave like a member of the sex you want to be for a year before your doctor gives you the go-ahead for a full transition. If they feel like you are not conforming enough to their idea of how a woman should be you can be denied that and it can add a whole another year of wait.

  42. a large part of this problem resides in the fact that virtually *all* behavior is gendered. no matter what anyone wears, or how they behave, or how they present themselves, there is a binary gender attribute assigned to it by our society.

    so if i am agressive in my words or behavior, it’s considered “male” behavior. and if i’m an m2f trans person, it’s used as “proof” that i’m “really” male. if i’m a cis male, then it’s “proof” that i’m enforcing gender norms. if i’m soft-spoken as an m2f trans person, then it’s used as “proof” that i’m enforcing gender norms. only a cis male who is soft-spoken is considered “breaking down gender”.

    further, cis people can behave in a manor consistant with their gender because “we all have to do what we must to survive under patriarchy”. trans people are held to a different standard. trans people must only act in non-gendered ways, and present in non-gendered appearance, or we are not considered authentic.

    of course, there is no “non-gendered” behavior, and very little would be considered “non-gendered” appearance.

  43. If I only called out trans people on it or some how thought that they were more responsible than anyone else then it would be hateful and shaming I agree. I thought I made it clear that I didn’t think this was inherent to being trans, but whole hearted buying into it is something that you see in trans communities online (admittedly amongst people who are often beginning their trans journeys) and that makes me extremely uncomfortable. I know it’s not inherent to being trans and like I said we are all in a flawed system trying to make things fit together. I do call people out on this kind of thing all the time, from boycotting tv shows, talking about my beliefs, to purposefully subverting my gender presentation to challenge peoples conceptions about this etc etc so it’s not something I only do to trans people, but this is a conversation about trans issues so I only talked about that. In fact I probably have less of an issue with trans people buying into “gender” than any other group, afterall if you’re struggling with society and gender and attempting to present a gender other than the one that society has ascribed you I can see how one could end up wholly buying into the gender construct itself.

    I hate the term cissexual, because, I am, in the words of my girlfriend, not “cisexual, but not trans either.” It creates a binary that I’m not sure always exists. Where (as far as I understand it) trans people experience a dissonance between their biological and/or sociological gender presentations at birth/ pre-transition and their brain and resolve this through altering their biological and sociological presentation I have a dissonance between my biological and sociological gender presentation and my brain that wouldn’t be resolved through a transition because I would still have a gender presentation. There’s a difference I think between being Cissexual and despising yourself and your body because others perceive it within a gendered framework as a gendered being that you don’t perceive yourself to be. From my observations alot of radfem women feel this way before they come to radical feminism and the idea that you are either trans or cissexual can be a bit galling to someone who considers themself neither. I think as well that jealousy may be a part of many radfem womens issues with transwomen. If you have a gender/brain dissonance that can’t be fixed without the abolition of gender then I can see how you could resent people whose solution to a similar problem seems to hinder the abolition of gender. This is not to say this would be right, but it would be understandable. And once you understand you can help people to change.

    I do think there’s alot of reactionary writting and thinking on both sides of this issue and I do wish people could just… listen to each other. Most radfeminists are totally supportive of trans people as transmen or transwomen and believe that the terrible injustices and horrors trans people suffer should and must be fought. Most trans people agree that societies current gender roles are restrictive and should be abolished. It always seems to me like we’re fighting each other when we should be joining forces and fighting everyone else.

  44. I hate the term cissexual, because, I am, in the words of my girlfriend, not “cisexual, but not trans either.” It creates a binary that I’m not sure always exists.

    i don’t mean to be flippant, but there’s a lot of words in the english language that i don’t like either, but in order to communicate, i use them, because they relay meaning that can’t be expressed with any other word. lisa explains this well here as a jew, i call non-jews “gentiles” as a way to refer to a group of people as “not jewish” without framing the categorization of them in a judgmental way. to call gentiles “non-jews”, frames the categorization from a jewish perspective, with “jew” as the norm, and the “non-jew” as some kind of aberration.

    and while i’ll agree that most binaries are essentially false, humans tend to look at the universe around them in binaries, especially when examining a small aspect of our universe, because it makes for an easier analysis. i like to think that there’s an inherent assumption that the analogy of the binary is limited by the scope of the binary usage as an analogy – sorry if that appears a bit circular, but i’m having a little trouble wording that.

    and calling myself a jew is a perfect example of that essentially false binary. many jews would not consider me jewish, even though i was born and raised as a jew, because i haven’t practiced the religion in many years. but a part of my perspective, a part of my being, is, in fact, jewish, because i was born and raised in a jewish cultural context. and when i meet another jew, i find myself having an instant connection based on that shared experience.

  45. Well, well, all the same old, same old.

    As a post-op MtF woman — a WBT (Woman Born Transsexual) if you like, I don’t give a damn if you accept, agree with, or admit me into your “special gatherings”. Nor does it matter if all the non-trans folks discuss me — it’s seems to be connected to angels, pins, and dancing.

    After SRS (Sex Reassignment Surgery) it does take a while to fit into our own skins. It’s a sort of adolescence. it also takes time “becoming”.

    It is NOT about “performing gender”, it’s about living our sex.

    As a person who has always, from grade school, been teased, and abused. As a person who found solace in books. As one who tried on a different persona, not unlike changing shoes, in an attempt to fit in and avoid all this sex change, gender, crap, I have to say my new body, person, life, is quite comfortable. It has been for over 10 years.

    Folks can doubt all they want about the “born in the wrong body” statements — but it fits better than any other explanation.

    After learning the “rules”, after understanding that much “transphobia” is nothing more than misogyny, it’s easier to break those “rules”. Most visible “trans-persons” are either “professional-trannies”, “leaders” (often self proclaimed), or “newbies” who just haven’t yet had enough experience. This is not unlike those young women who really believe we are in a “post-feminist” era. Time is a great teacher.

    So, I really do not give a damn about those women who want nothing to do with me in “their space”. I’m woman identified, I live with another woman, I support women’s causes.

    I don’t “live as a woman” — I am, every day, every moment, a woman. I might not be “your” kind of woman, I might not “represent my gender” in a way some would want — but, it’s not about “gender”, it’s not about “presentation” — it’s about sex.

    I don’t have “events” — but — if I did, I sure would not ask you to attend. Nor do I want to attend events that do not want me. As I said before, I’ve spent most of my life alone — what the hell can you do to me by banning me from your stuff — it’s just more of the same old crap. You are not doing anything I haven’t experienced many, many times before.

    I’m not “transgender”. I do not identify as trans-anything. I’m just a soon to be 69 year old woman who lives with her partner, reads, cooks, goes fishing and shooting, and spends more time than the great majority of folks visiting museums.

    I’m most likely more “rad” than most, more left wing than most, and enjoy my life more than most.

    All the political crap aside, I doubt many of you would be able to understand how comfortable I am in my body, in my skin. There are no concessions to “fashion”. There’s no fear of being “read”, no discomfort in this body. Since SRS I’m really able to be me. Nothing to hide.

    So, if you want to ban me. If you want to judge me. If you want to build your political future on denying my humanity — go right ahead. It’s been done before — and we’re still here.

    Just do not attack me, do not deny my right to live my life — I will defend myself to the best of my ability.

    If you want to define yourselves through exclusion — don’t claim to be left wing or radical. If you want to define me for your own purposes — be it from rad-fems and their ilk, or the “we-are-all-transgender-kumbya” folks, please remember your actions are oppressive. Your actions deny my civil rights. You are no better than those who define African-Americans for their own purposes, or those who define “natives” to “save”. It’s just another side of the same old coin.

    I have friends who are over 60, and spent more than half their lives post-op. Most do not get involved in trans-politics, trans-anything. They are old friends. Friendship based on more than a medical history.

    Much of this anti-trans stuff is based on ignorance, fear, “strangeness” (you want to see “strangeness” in action, talk to a gay guy about what was done to your penis — that’s a hoot). The reactions are little different in either the straight or LGB community.

    Have fun, it’s the old “trans-wars” all over again.

    By the way, don’t worry, I won’t donate any of my nasty “tranny-money” to any of your causes.

    PS – Gender roles are “restrictive” if you allow them to be. It’s always easier to conform — you just lose your soul, and die without having lived

  46. okay, then, if it isn’t some hateful nonsense, then maybe radical feminists should send out self-report surveys to all potential attendees of their gatherings, and surveys to the friends and family of these potential attendees, to make sure that none of them engage in the genderized behavior that infuriates them so when a transwoman does it.

    or something.

    because i just don’t get the mentality or reasoning, and yes, i’ve read this thread, and i’ve read the posts — hell, i WAS a radical feminist once, unless this crap started making wanna shoot people.

  47. I’ve often felt as if I’m walking around without the special glasses that others see through that make them so very, very passionate on issues that I just kind of don’t see the need to get worked up about, but really, how is it that transwomen are such a big and pervasive problem for some people? I live in New York City, and I can probably count on two hands the number of transfolk that I’ve been able to identify at a glance. And, well, who cares? Certainly, if you’re able to identify a transwoman as such (or, in the popular formulation, as a “man in a dress”), then other people are, too. And don’t you think that the transwoman would be in more danger from choosing to be gender-variant than you, yourself, would be from the transwoman?

    Honestly, sometimes I think that certain people have a very tenuous grasp on their own self-identity if the self-identity of others causes them such discomfiture. It’s all very the-lady-doth-protest-too-much-methinks, sort of like those fundies who can’t abide anyone else living their lives in the way they see fit. Just as gay folks marrying isn’t going to make my (theoretical) het marriage invalid, so transsexuals aren’t going to make my femininity invalid.

  48. Transwomen are being raised to believe that their voices have a right to be heard (which is awesome because they do, obviously) but it does have the consequence that often transwomen will debate in style that many non-trans women identify as gendered male and as oppressive, which is not conducive to consciousness raising, feeling like its a safe space etc.

    By this logic I should not be allowed. I was raised to believe that my voice had a right to be heard — I spoke constantly for my younger brother, I dominated conversations in school, and as a New Yorker I have a natural conversational style that involves a lot of full duplex — ie, talking at the same time as someone else but following their communication as well as making my own. People who are not from New York and expect lengthy pauses after my sentences constantly perceive me as being rude and interrupting.

    I know this is not your perception, Miss Sophie, and I’m not arguing with you, I’m arguing with the people who hold this perception that you are reporting on. Sadly, since I don’t really know any of them I can’t talk to them in person. But I have had conversations with transwomen where I totally dominated the conversation and (inadvertently) stepped all over everyting they had to say because they were from the South and I am from New York. So if it’s about keeping people who were raised as if they were male out of women-only spaces because “women” are raised to be hesitant in conversation and seek a lot of consensus and are not argumentative and blah blah blah, then they need to take away my woman card and the woman card of about half the female population of New York, and by the way, I expect to be issued my Male Privilege for my ability to be rude and interrupt people any day now.

    Seriously, this logic that you report that these people have, or may have, is some of the most incredibly stupid gender-reductionist crap ever, and I wish I could have a face to face with these people, because I’d teach them exactly how loud, argumentative, and “unsafe” a ciswoman’s debating style can be.

  49. I well remember working for a lesbian candidate for political office (this in N.Y.State). I made a contribution to the candidate, worked the phones, then went door to door for her.

    At a “rally” / fundraiser held at the N.Y. LGBT Center, I made sure to attend — for support.

    The candidates partner was UNABLE to call me “her” or “she”. She could not do it. It was ummm, ahhhh, or errr. Even saying “Tina” was a problem.

    This was not that long after my SRS. I was still sort of awkward.

    That was just one of a number of events that convinced me there was no future being the “T” in LGBT. Being “L” or “G” if trans (better if post-trans) was O.K., but “T” was a way of separating you out. It’s a way to keep you from ever actually joining either the “L” or the “G”.

    As long as that’s the case, no one has to think, to examine their beliefs, really come to grips with their prejudice, their fear, their personal insecurity.

    How many self proclaimed “rad-fems” are afraid that, they too, might just be ****men**** in their “heart of hearts”?

    Why do so many gay guys specify “no fats, no femmes” in personal ads? Why is “masculine looking” so important?

    Then they all point fingers at various and sundry “trans-whatevers”, and accuse them of “supporting the binary”, of supporting “repressive gender roles”.

    In truth, most lesbian and gay male identities are based on those same “gender roles” — and no, it’s not ironic.

    By the way, unless you are independently wealthy, a performance artist, or a person with the talent and / or chutzpah to find a niche in one or another “community” — or perhaps just a plain con-artist / hustler (no, not sex worker – many most honorable people were, or are, sex workers), you most likely have to fit one or another reasonably conventional gender role — this is especially true if trans, ex-trans, post-trans, etc. Now, I will grant you, there are more “conventional gender roles” in N.Y. and some other major cities than there are in, lets say, my new home in Texas.

    That’s just the way things are. Unless you have a means of survival, unless you are very brave, you just “modify”, survive, and work toward liberation.

    Oh, I forgot, there is one other group that feels free to “flaunt convention” — academics with tenure. They are also very good at telling different trans folks how to live (also how to die).

    They have no qualms making fun (in a VERY intelligent way) of some poor trans-girl who has a dream of a “normal” life — the one the academic claims to have “rejected” — even though mommy and daddy might well be ready to help their “precious” at any moment.

    It really is not nice to amuse yourself with “throwaway kids”.

  50. If I only called out trans people on it or some how thought that they were more responsible than anyone else then it would be hateful and shaming I agree. I thought I made it clear that I didn’t think this was inherent to being trans, but whole hearted buying into it is something that you see in trans communities online (admittedly amongst people who are often beginning their trans journeys) and that makes me extremely uncomfortable.

    Something to keep in mind when talking about trans people – and trans women, specifically, since that’s where I know about what I speak – is that we weren’t raised as girls. This is something that is shoved in our faces constantly to put us in our place, but it’s conveniently forgotten when someone decides to criticize trans women who are just starting out and experimenting with their expressions as women. Most women get to experiment as they grow up. Trans women generally do not, and end up going through that phase while also transitioning. And often, growing out of it.

    I hate the term cissexual, because, I am, in the words of my girlfriend, not “cisexual, but not trans either.” It creates a binary that I’m not sure always exists. Where (as far as I understand it) trans people experience a dissonance between their biological and/or sociological gender presentations at birth/ pre-transition and their brain and resolve this through altering their biological and sociological presentation I have a dissonance between my biological and sociological gender presentation and my brain that wouldn’t be resolved through a transition because I would still have a gender presentation.

    I think you’re actually talking about cisgender here, which is why I keep trying to abandon the word.

    Cissexual is solely about whether or not you want to change your sex. If you do, you’re transsexual. If you do not, you’re cissexual. It has nothing to do with gender, one’s comfort with gender, or how one prefers to express gender.

    I’m also really tired of the idea that trans women take up too much space in conversations or debate. It’s a stereotype, and one that not all trans women fit, and not all cis women fail to fit. I would hesitate to assume that most trans women fit it, really. It’s a stereotype more honored in the repetition than in the anecdotes and the examples, and is used primarily to discredit us as women.

  51. Also, I’m tired of the inclusion of trans women being framed as a matter of safety for cis women. No space with cis people is a safe space for trans women. It may feel safe, but it can turn sour at any moment – you can get bullied or even assaulted in a lesbian club, you can get attacked at any time. People can just decide that you don’t belong and do everything they can to harass you and make you feel unwelcome.

    Trans people are more vulnerable to this than cis people, because the world’s full of cis people and most of them do not respect us. Most treat us with condescending tolerance at best, and contempt and a total lack of respect for our boundaries is more common.

    I don’t feel like an invader when I’m around cis women, but I do feel like my “right” to be present is extremely conditional. Unless they’re friends.

  52. I am a WBT, Woman Born Transsexual. WBT is short hand for saying I am a woman with a past medical history of Transsexualism also called HBS or Harry Benjamin Syndrome by some who feel the term transsexualism to be hopelessly compromised by association with transgender sex workers.

    I had sex reassignment surgery which resulted in my being reassigned to female many years ago, perhaps more years ago than many of you on this list have been alive.

    I was a Transkid in the brutal years of the 1950s and early 1960s when medical treatment had the same science fiction feel to it as human space travel did. This was years before Stonewall. It was before hippies, “The Feminine Mystique” and the Beatles.

    I was caught and labeled as “Tinkerbelle” by my parents at a time when wearing clothing of the opposite sex was a crime. At a time when people like me were given lobotomies as treatment for our “perversion”.

    But I survived. My mother read “the Feminine Mystique” the moment it hit the paperback racks and then insisted I read it hoping it would discourage me from wanting to become a woman. Instead I thought: “That won’t happen to me. It will be different, I’m going to be a radical and a poet because the proto hippie movement was coming into being as was the anti Vietnam War Movement.”

    So I grooved on Sartre, Camus, de Beauvior, Marcuse and Goodman. I joined SDS and later Weather.

    I started living as Suzan the week Weatherman came into being and a week before Stonewall.

    I was a “Radical Feminist” within the original context and consider those who lay claim to the term without the tenets to be both appropriationists and anachronistic. The Radical Feminist Movement existed during the years between approx 1967-1975 (See Alice Echols).

    I never pressed belonging to a radical feminist group while I was living in the space and time between coming out and prior to my SRS. I had my own growth and study and process of becoming to deal with. Robin Morgan trashed someone I knew and I had other priorities. I was sheltering a deserter from the US Marine Corp as well as working with a peer group helping others like myself navigate their way through the process of transition.

    After the war ended and I was post-SRS I moved to Los Angeles where I came out as lesbian. The issue of lesbianism had been one of the reasons behind the demise of radical feminism. By that time lesbian separatism had come into being and I was a lesbian separatist. I went to classes at the Women’s Building, was a photographer and layout artist with “The Lesbian Tide”

    The Transwars of that era never touched me nor did they touch most WBTs who were within the movement, not because we were so deeply stealth, indeed the women around us often knew of our medical histories.

    the reason they never touched us may have been because we were exceptional, but what made us exceptional was the fact we worked hard for little or no pay and because we were always there. We marched and we set up the chairs ran the mimeographs and collated the leaflets.

    So I think I’ve learned a thing or two for sure along the line these last nearly 40 years.

    Fault can be found on both sides in this issue. Women who have just come out, barely started hormones and their Real Life Experiences demand immediate inclusion even in spaces where what one has between their legs makes a difference. Then there are those who claim to be radical feminist who sound virtually indistinguishable from the Taliban Christians. Their claims of persecution for telling “the truth” about people who have some connection with the several words that have “trans” as a prefix are nearly identical with the words those self righteous Christers use when they attack Lesbian and Gay people.

    For all the talk of socialization there is failure to recognize that socialization does not occur within a bell jar marked male or one marked female. Indeed, in modern western culture we swim in an all encompassing ocean of information that socializes us.

    It is true that many people in transition either from trans to female or from trans to male often appear caught up in stereotypes. This is often due to their lack of real life experience in integrating the elements that make one a part of the sex they are moving into being. Gender, those elements of social presentation be they clothing, mannerisms or methods of dealing with the world are part of being on a team to which one is assigned based on genital configuration.

    Now I can predict what comes next. The argument, “I just want to abolish gender because it is oppressive.”

    Great, I want to abolish all religion for the same reasons. Unfortunately gender like religion are collective fictions that people form teams or tribes around and ascribe all sort of traits accordingly. Abolishing… Humm… Pretty damned big task. With religion I’ve opted for atheism. With gender a sort of hip menu selecting process.

    Now I can get all pissy regarding the air headed bimbos who take their tops off on “Girls Gone Wild” or the ann Coulters of the world and I include the trannie sex workers here.

    But and here come the chorus that takes us way back to the start of the letter. remember “Radical Feminism”? The original usage. Now it just so happens that I have a book sitting here on my desk. One I got to help in researching a book I am writing. This book is called “Feminist Revolution” and it was put out by the real radical feminists from way back when, the women called Redstockings

    From the introduction:

    In 1969 Redstockings stated in its Principles, “We do not ask what is radical,” “revolutionary,” “reformist,” or “moral”–we ask: “Is it good for women or bad for women?” Although this book is full of such words as revolution, radical, liberal, conservative, we have not changed our minds about what we said in 1969. Our principles were an attempt to burst through the dogma surrounding the question of women at that time and assert our commitment to real revolution. they were a commitment against dogma in the interests of the liberation of women.”

    Now as I said I’ve been around a long time and I’ve seen several cycles of Transwars. I’ve been doing some serious research of movement history. Not just regarting people associated in some manner with one of those trans prefixed words but with “The Movement” in general.

    I highly recommend looking up Jo Freeman’s article on “Trashing” as well as the term”Bad Jacketing” (regarding Cointelpro)

  53. Honestly, sometimes I think that certain people have a very tenuous grasp on their own self-identity if the self-identity of others causes them such discomfiture.

    I just thought this was worth repeating, zuzu . . . this may sound slightly off-topic, but historian of religion Karen Armstrong has written a book called The Battle for God which charts the rise of fundamentalism in the three monotheistic religions in the modern era. She looks at Judaism in Israel, Islam in Iran and Egypt and Christianity in the United States. What struck me when I read the book was how much fundamentalism is rooted in fear. Fear of chaos, fear of change, fear of uncertainty, fear of death probably on some really deep level. And while it doesn’t make the fundies and other hateful people any more easy to live with on a day to day basis, I’ve found that reminding myself that it’s about their uncertainty, their need to defend their self-identity and boundaries that engenders their hatred of other people and otherness generally.

    Because you’re so right–why the hell should they care? As long as what other people are doing is not interfering with their ability to live the lives they believe are ethically important to live–what does it matter that other people disagree with them? Particularly in situations of sex/gender identity and sexual orientation–how could nonstraight and/or noncisgendered people possibly pose any threat on a human rights level (which is really the only sort of threat I feel warrants interference)? We don’t! So grow up and get passed the point where your self-identity is rooted in all other people being just like you and agreeing with you 100% of the time on all things. I thought we all got passed that at about the age of three.

  54. The Coming Nightmare of a “Transsexual Rights
    and Hate Crimes” Law in Massachusetts:

    …transgender/transsexual” activists… want to offer your children on the bloody altar of transsexuality — pulling them into sex-change operations involving unimaginable bodily mutilations and hormonal manipulations.

    The culture of death has created a compulsion in the souls of the homosexual radicals and their “trans” allies, driving them ever further into new perversions. There is no bottom to this pit of depravity, and they will drag many innocent victims along with them: the young, the lonely, the psychologically and physically wounded, the confused – including some of your children and grandchildren, family, friends and neighbors. There will be no safe haven. You cannot cocoon in your homes or churches. Our public schools, businesses, public accommodations (which may include churches), your employers and insurers, will all be forced to yield to yet-undefined perversions, protected by law.

    That’s on just the first page of a 125-page “report” by MassEquality on a law that would give Transwomen the same protection as Lesbians in the state of Massachusetts. Or rather, would have given it. It was tabled. Why?

    We went at them full blast. We published an explosive 125-page report on the bill and exposed exactly what it would do. We went on the media – newspaper, Internet news, and radio – and further exposed the bill and the movement behind it. We made sure that literally thousands of you contacted the Legislature and demanded that this bill not go forward.

    To say that other women are subject to the same kind and same amount of oppression, that cis-gendered privilege such as the privilege not to be incessantly subject to this kind of crap (from both the Paleolithic Right and the UltraRad Raymondites) doesn’t exist is not just not in accordance with reality, it is deeply oppressive in its own right.

    Now how many non-Trans people had any idea of just how over-the-top even influential groups can get? Not the Fred Phelps loonies, I mean the mainstream? Many are not aware of their own privilege – how can we expect them to be? And if they are made aware, there’s not a lot they can do about that. But once made aware, engaging in flat denial just because being in that position makes them feel uncomfortable, that is another matter.

  55. Not to mention that excluding a group of people because (in the minds of some radical feminists) they were raised to express themselves in a male-gendered way and you want a female-gendered way of communicating kind of contradicts the other excuse for excluding trans women: that you want a gender-free space and trans women are all into reinforcing female gender roles.

    (I’m using You in a generic sense to mean those who make these arguments)

  56. One of the issues involved in the development of the WBT (Women Born Transsexual) concept had,to do with the very idea that we (WBT’s) were raised to express ourselves in a “male gendered way”.

    After some thought, it became clear that most, if not all, of us had something other than a “boyhood” — it was more like a “trannyhood”.

    In my specific case, parental actions that were designed to develop “manhood”, I saw as abusive. In fact, acts that were designed to motivate boys, develop “manhood”, had the opposite results with me.

    I’ve spoken to others who were the virtual “big sister”, raising younger children in large, poor families. There are many other “non-traditional-realities” many of us lived with, or through.

    Many of the assumptions made by those “rad-fems” who would deny our rights, and stereotype us, are just flat out wrong.

    Acting just like the most hateful of the radical-religious-right, they rarely allow a fact to ruin a good story.

    It’s really all about being a “transkid”. Some have more options, some have more reasons to “hide” — some do it “well” for a good portion of their lives. We try all the different “cures” — success, failure, marriage, children, education, etc., etc., etc. after all is said and done, we’re still stuck with ourselves. If we are lucky, our defenses, walls, begin to break down — and we are left with ourselves naked.

    We’ve not had a typical anything.

  57. People have already done such a good job addressing the substance, such as it is, of some of the transphobic complaints. So I thought I’d just say: I don’t even understand what “woman-born-woman” is supposed to mean. Physically, biologically, it’s just nonsense. No one can be born as a woman. A woman is an adult who’s had years of experiences, social conditioning, and interactions with the people and world around her. Everyone is born as an infant. Aren’t these exclusionary groups really just arguing that they want a space for “women born with genitalia that got them immediately labeled as female”?

    I guess that would be hard to admit that’s what they want, though, since it would make it so much more obvious that some people have privilege in not having to be at odds with the label they’re given at birth (or prenatally, even). And it might make people have to think that, oh, no, perhaps by defining “woman” by the labels the patriarchal medical establishment assigns to fetuses and infants they’re helping, ya know–reify gender.

    Personally, as someone who wants to break down gender-based oppression, I would try to avoid categorizing and excluding people based on what oppressive institutions say about them and would instead listen to what people say their gender is. But I guess some people would rather just believe they’re righteous without examining anything they’re doing.

  58. Yeah, what Tina said about having a trannyhood rather than a boyhood (or a girlhood for trans men).

    You pick up the signals meant for the sex you know you should be, you have to sort out the signals for the sex people say you are so you can at least put up enough of a front so that you won’t be harassed or punished (probably because you didn’t put up a front at one point and you were harassed or punished).

    But it’s not typical.

    Plus Suzan pointing out “trashing.”

  59. Oh, some of them are saying BAF, or “Born as female,” now.

    The point of WBW, BAF, and such is to make the definition whether or not you had a penis or vagina at birth, to emphasize trans women’s male origins, rather than our current lives.

    We’re not supposed to forget, because we might also forget our place.

  60. As per the socialization thing, I’m sure I’m only hallucinating when I see some of the most notorious (female, too, YES) transphobes on the Interwebs acting incredibly aggressive, dominating in a given discourse, rude, callous, bullying, even sexually creepy in some cases, etc. etc. etc.

    or that they tend to use “you must be a MAN, the way you talk” or “you sound like a bunch of men” not only in conversations with self-ID’d trans people but with anyone with a female handle who they decide isn’t One Of Them, for whatever reason (and those reasons are legion). And, further, that this is meant to be a conversation-stopper in roughly the same way that “faggot” is used as a “don’t take this person seriously” among straight men. (for that matter, at least one of that particular “radical feminist” crowd, a straight woman, has in fact used that very term, in my memory: “you sound like a fag.”)

    or that when very polite and olive-branch extending trans women (i.e. nexy jo) try to talk to these people, they get not only steamrollered but accused of trying too hard to be feminine and thus not only lull them into a feeling of false security but adhere to a false construct (femininity), which is also Bad. such things as the lack of use of caps in one’s handle are cited.

    or that the basic problem really is a lot simpler than all these incredibly elaborate angels-dancing-on-pinheads discourses on how -they- are the -true- defeaters of “gender” or whatever it is, but rather

    1) ignorance, which, as noted above, is excusable when the person is given a chance to learn better and does so

    2) just that some few people are pure-D assberets, and while they are usually assberets in all sorts of other ways, too, they are most able to exert their baleful influence over people who are already vulnerable.

  61. How many self proclaimed “rad-fems” are afraid that, they too, might just be ****men**** in their “heart of hearts”?

    I can think of at least a few that are probably just that.

    Others, I do believe, are simply het and gender normative by any other name, homophobic too, even, really, handwaving about the pureness of the “lesbian gaze” (whatever) notwithstanding; and that they bash trans people simply because they can get away with it and it makes them feel better about their sorry little selves.

  62. the pureness of the “lesbian gaze”

    Are you looking at me? Are you?

    Your gaze is pure, yet I feel dirty.

  63. That’s on just the first page of a 125-page “report” by MassEquality on a law that would give Transwomen the same protection as Lesbians in the state of Massachusetts. Or rather, would have given it. It was tabled. Why?

    I think you mean MassResistance, which is a christian right group that pretty much has the opposite agenda of MassEquality — they’re against gay marriage, any kind of anti-discrimination laws, spout a lot of “what about the children” stuff, etc.

  64. I’m going to admit that the idea that transwomen might, by the act of transitioning, reify standard gender dichotomies is something that I considered possibly true for a long time, but I also knew transwomen on a personal level and didn’t feel that I was being fair to them.

    So I shutup about it and took the time to think and listen. The first conclusion I reached was that, even if it were true, it wouldn’t matter: we do not have a right to judge or condemn what anyone else has to do to survive or find happiness (you know, up until the point when it directly hurts someone else). On a side note, this is actually quite similar to my feelings about psychiatric drugs.

    The second thing I realized was that– duh!– not every transwoman I is stereotypically feminine. Indeed, if people transition into physical womanhood without adhering to all the traits assigned to women in traditional gender binary systems, then that actually serves to destabilize the duality.

    (Also, I want a magical metaphysical vagina.)

  65. I’m more convinced that trans women and men challenge rather than reify traditional thinking about sex and gender just by existing and fighting to be accepted and respected. And I’m growing more disgusted with people who claim to want to eliminate social gender roles and expressions, but also hold on to a notion that womanhood is something special that you can only be born into by being called female at birth.

  66. Interestingly, the insistence on drawing dark, heavy lines between trans- and cis- women also flattens out the difference in experience among women of all kinds . . . I mean, how many of us have truly common childhood experiences that can be traced back to the way people read us gendered as female? Even if there are some things we all share in common that way, the meaning of those experiences differed radically depending on our families and on our larger social context.

  67. This is one of those arguments that is predisposed to making several presumptions about trans people that in fact are patently false on their face. One is the assumption of being gender normative growing up. In fact as one person the “trans-hood” rather then boyhood is probably more apt. We have gender normative behavior being shoved down our throat growing up, often through extremely abusive means, and any deviation from this behavior is often punished by our peers and our family. Those of us who cannot escape or hide from this often end up with incredibly abusive childhoods. I think that this is a point that is often missed by those who make these points, its the assumption of privilege. Well privilege is only for those who play by the rules. Some trans people can closet their feelings and behaviors enough to avoid this abuse, some has parents more tolerant of gender varient behaviors. However for me personally, I could not hide my feelings and who I was, but it was not in ways that are so often stereotyped with regards to trans kids.

    Also by all means this does not mean trans kids follow the stereotypes of gender when they are acting in a nonconforming way. Instead it is a web of complexity that follows several gender variant behaviors, and honestly in many cases social detachment. In fact the wide variety of gender deviation goes beyond the misogynistic stereotyping of trans feminine kids you find in the DSM.

    To this day I am shocked how few of these so called “radical feminist” have not read Simone De Beauvior’s the Ethics of Ambiguity. She laid out in clear language, long before trans was an issue in feminist circles, the enforcement of adult roles with younger children, and how it is done by both adults and other children. She also talked about the consequences being fairly abusive. She did not assume necessarily privilege at all times based in sex if you read this book, rather she says the system itself of enforcement itself is highly flawed and prone to abuse of those who fall outside of it. She called it the world of adults being pushed upon the world of children, and was restrictive with regards to a childs expression. Well…this is where DeBeauvior is clued into something many radical feminist are not. She acutely understands that those who break outside this adult imposition of roles often pay a high price and face fierce consequences by both their peers as well as adults. DeBeauvior was far more perceptive of the social structure and the way it is imposed on children. In many ways it was predictive of the reality for many trans kids. The dilemma for various trans kids, many of which are not social conformists is that they are often punished as to prevent such behavior. It is ultimately a system of fear and abuse used to shape what is ultimately innate behavior for somebody who is trans. Feminine behavior in young “boys” of any type is often strictly punished by both peers and adults, as feminine behaviors are often the least tolerated. So the trans kid ends up being a victim of the patriarchal assumptions of gender norms. Most of these essentialist, instead, take the cis gender priveleged position of thinking trans women, were ultimate benefactors of patriarchal privilege growing up, when in fact, many of us have major issues with these patriarchal structure from even a young age.

    Living in constant fear and encountering abuse for how you act and who you are is not a position of privilege. Being treated like a freak constantly, is not a position of privilege. So when we here assumptions of privilege from these “radical feminist” and attitudes regarding our identity that reflect our oppressors, we as trans people, have every right to be defensive and tell them what these attitudes reflect.

    That is why out of everything, the assumption of privilege with regards to trans people, is probably the most upsetting. The reason why many trans people are very defensive about who we are, is largely because we live in a system that forces us to be on the defensive and to fight our identities, and essentially our bodies and legal status. So when we here one of these out of touch so called “radical feminist” basically puts forth an essentialist view of gender that is highly exclusive, we find it reinforcing the patriarchal system that has our entire lifetimes has been an issue for us, and yeah, their viewpoint is extremely transphobic, anti-feminist, bigoted, and downright hypocritical. There is another problem regarding those who say we should accept our bodies the way they are, there is a similar disconnect, though much less offensive, that does not grasp the fundamental discomfort that trans people feel towards our bodies. And by seeking out surgery we are not reinforcing societies negative and essentialist viewpoints, rather we are coming to peace with ourselves and our identities. Also flat out we will be the first to say that the surgery is made a bigger deal then it should be. The surgery does not make us women (or men), nor do the hormones, rather it is who we are as people. It is the failure to recognize that many trans people just see the hormones and surgery as nothing more then a mechanism to achieve some sort of peace that is often missed. And maybe for a second it might be a good idea to realize that this is fairly complex thing to deal with on a personal level, because we have to live in a society where many people, including these so called “feminist”, are trying to enforce a system that is ultimately oppressive to trans people by enforcing an essentialist view of gender that does tie our assigned birth sex into our legal and social identities, and enforces mechanisms to “other” us and exclude us.

    Real feminism, and the struggles of trans people, are essentially tied together. Both about about claiming the liberty over ones body and ones identity. Both are about finding alternatives to oppressive systems of the patriarchy. It reflects a total lack of understanding of feminism itself by these so called “radical feminist” when they put forth these presumptions on trans people. It is completely out of touch with what it is really like to be trans, but also with what it means to call oneself a feminist. Reinforcing systems of oppression against women who struggle with the gender assumptions of the patriarchy is NOT a feminist act, but this is exactly what these “radical feminist” do when they deride and make assumptions about trans women, and act upon it through exclusionary behavior. We as trans people, have every right to call them on this, especially when their actions and attitudes can have a big effect on our lives.

    Some simple rules regarding trans people:
    1. Trans women, are not men. Ultimately they are women. Trans men, when it gets down to it our ultimately men. Do not try to justify essentialist philosophy and predispose your views based on stereotypes. Also do not make double standards where trans men are accepted into womens spaces and trans women are not, its kind of offensive.
    2. Do not make the assumption of boyhood (or girlhood) or childhoods of cisgender privilege. Transkids…ultimately are just that, kids who in some ways did not follow social expectations of gender. Transkids, more then anybody else, were often not the benifactors of the patriarchy and its views on gender, but rather the victims. Just because of how trans kids were and how trans kids act, they were often the targets of abuse in both the physical, psychological, and sexual nature. This is the one greatest failing of many so called “radical feminist” is making this assumption.
    3. Do not assume trans people inherently fall into the patriarchal system and its behavioral model. As stated we “challenge” it more then anything. On top of that several of us have pretty strong feminist leanings often based in existentialist feminism and third wave feminism.

    4. Do not make the assumption that most trans people are straight. This is a critical failing of those who make assumptions about both trans men and trans women.
    5. Do not assume that our gender expression is overtly feminine or overtly masculine. Again with many non-trans people, we run the gambit, but I know trans guys who are flamers and trans women who are butch. Gender expression with transsexuals is pretty diverse. Just because we deeply identify as a gender opposite to what we were assigned at birth, does not mean our gender expression is easily stereotyped. Sometimes transwomen tend to be more feminine and trans men more masculine, but that does not mean this is static, especially on a personal level.
    6. Treat us with the respect. Which means getting pronouns right and treating us as our identified gender.

    PS I HIGHLY recommend Whipping Girl. It should be required reading if you want to touch the trans issue. It is essential reading. Though I don’t agree with everything Julia says, most of the time she is absolutely correct.

  68. Astraea sez:

    “I’m more convinced that trans women and men challenge rather than reify traditional thinking about sex and gender just by existing and fighting to be accepted and respected. And I’m growing more disgusted with people who claim to want to eliminate social gender roles and expressions, but also hold on to a notion that womanhood is something special that you can only be born into by being called female at birth.”

    Yeah we do.

    One of the first ones is, “God made you a boy (or girl) and god doesn’t make mistakes.” This got canceled out by the classmate born with a hare lip and another with cerebral palsy. (I was born in a paper mill town with a high incidence of birth defects, something that both negated the “God doesn’t make mistakes” and presented me with my own childhood version of the Epicurean dilemma.

    A lot of gender is cultural, the team uniform so to speak. I work in a big box ware house store in a multi cultural environment. Western people are down right androgynous in comparison to folks from non-western cultures.

    A lot of this is religion based. Indeed I think a lot of gender is religion based. The gods decreed or some such BS.

    Thus when I am confronted with the argument of “I just want to do away with the binary gender system.” My response is starting to lean towards, “And I want to abolish religion.” I consider both equally stupid. but vanquishing either from the planet is a daunting task and I’m not up to convincing 6 billion people of the correctness of my thinking. For one thing I don’t have that large an ego and for another having that sort of power would mean the sheeple would probably turn me into a new messiah.

    I was a transkid. What that means is that I felt this intense discomfort with the sex I was assigned from my earliest memories. My interaction with people initially resulted in them treating me more like a girl than a boy. (as a teenager I discovered the toys I had played with as an infant-5 years so I had more proof of this than many.)

    I grew up with a sense of self that caused me to feel in-between the sexes. I was the sort of neither/nor people commented upon. When I asked the doctors they told me that they were pretty sure I was born this way.

    I’ll extrapolate forth from this since the stories of most folks I’ve met who have gone through SRS have the same common elements that this is also true for people who were less obvious. I see transsexualism and quite possibly by extension transgenderism as being innate and using the American Psychiatric Assn. guidelines on homosexuality as a standard something that it is abusive to treat as a psychiatric condition.

    But back to gender. I was a hippie. One of our credos was , “Do your own thing, just don’t harm others.” another slogan of that era was “Hell no, I won’t go”

    If you want to work on ending gender roles do like I did with my atheism, end them in your own life. Go for it. But, you know I have a simple job working with people I mostly like and Social Security is only a few years away… Outside of work I’m the hippie old woman with the long hair, peace symbol and blue jeans with a liking for the color purple. At work I follow the dress code.

    When you try to draft me for your agenda then you are denying me my autonomy. I’ve had to brave all sorts of disempowering shit my whole life to arrive at a space where I feel I am the equal of people who were not born with transsexualism. Telling me I have to do what your bigotry dictates I must do is unacceptable. You want to abolish gender roles start with your own. don’t look for me at your Pride Day group though. If I march it will be in a Dyke March.

    I’m clueless as to what the post-modern gender theory people want from me. They babble on about me being transgressive. Hell all I’ve ever wanted in life is a secure place to live filled with book case, my camera, guitars, some one I love who loves me back, a job that pays the bills and a car that gets lots of miles per gallon. I call this my Ikea fantasy because of the environmentally friendly warm fuzzy feel I saw when Ikea first started sending catalogs out.

    The knock on us is that we are gender conformist. This is generally one of those double bind thingies where WBTs can’t do anything right. I was really femme and modeled for a while. I had my motives for doing so, mostly as a way to see how photographers did things like lighting. I trucked my own cameras with me everywhere. At that point the feminist knock on me was that I was perpetuating stereotypes.

    Then I became more and more involved in the lesbian feminist movement and my personal way of dressing became less the way I dressed when I was modeling and more the way I dressed when I was doing my photography. don’t cha just know there was a feminist criticism of my looking and acting just like any other lesbian feminist.

    The people laying these trips on me were not engaging in legitimate discourse that were appropriate in real consciousness raising sessions. they were motivated by bigotry and were disguising that bigotry in the language of feminism.

    Last year I read a most wonderful book by Julia Serano, “Whipping Girl”. It’s a must read for any one on either side of this issue and should have been a finalist in the Lambda Literary Awards for the year but wasn’t.

  69. I would like to add I have never encountered this in real life, and I rarely self identify as trans unless it is a close personal friend. Much of what I write on is based on the attitudes I encounter on blogs and in other writings. I have yet to encounter this in real life, but it may be the way I am selective about choosing friends.

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