Checking out hot girls in burqas is now easier than ever! February 8, 2008 Jill You’ve gotta hand it to the assholes over at Hot Air — just when they couldn’t get any more trite, racist and misogynist, they do. Thanks to Matt for the link.
I like all the comments at Hot Air and Engadget that seem to think this is an actual technology being put to use by burqa-wearing Muslim women. Instead of a gimmicky art project thought up by some guy in Germany. Hah, get it? You could use digital technology to circumvent hijab “virtually” while still maintaining modesty in the real world! I guess there are some interesting points to be made there, but they don’t need to involve the burqa unless you’re simply courting controversy. You know what would be more interesting? A simple Bluetooth SMS application that let people in a bar or club request a naked photo from you, then you can visually confirm who’s asking and decide whether to respond with your pre-selected naked picture. I mean, I wouldn’t use it (well, maybe I would but with a joke picture) but I’m sure a lot of people would. Our culture also has modesty standards and laws (you can’t walk around starkers) and many people are much more comfortable circumventing those virtually than physically. Just check Craigslist. The interesting question is, what percentage of people require the additional anonymity of the internet? Would it all be spoiled by being in person, in a semi-anonymous location like a club?
Oh come on, this is funny. I don’t really care how badly islamists treat their women. The women in Arabia seem to like it, or at least don’t hate it enough to do anything. Of course the burqa in the West is a symbol of political and theological domination; but over there, so what?) It’s their pitiful excuse for a civilization. If dark-age morons want to check out girls’ photos on their phones while looking at moving piles of blue fabric, hey, they made their bed, they can sleep in it. As they say, the jokes write themselves. Vote Sauron 08 on February 7, 2008 at 11:48 AM I’m sorry. I am so utterly horrified at this guys comment, I can’t even function right now. How are these kinds of people allowed to LIVE. And you know this way of thinking is everywhere! It could be one of the guys I work with! God… this makes me SICK. They are HUMANS. Does that not matter? People tell me I am going to hell because I don’t worship Santa. Screw that… I value human life. And not in the scary anti-abortion way. In the I can about the people that are already ALIVE HERE AND NOW. *flails in confusion*
I can’t tell for sure, but that comment sounds like a joke- if only because the poster filled in the field for his name with “Vote Sauron 08.” I mean, it’s possible that he’s deadly serious and the moniker is just sadly and unintentionally ironic, but it looks intentional to me.
Unfortunately I think meggygurl is right — I think that’s pretty much the default mindset in the US when it comes to burqas, places and cultures halfway around the world that people don’t care about, etc. “Don’t bring it here, but you backwards brown people can do whatever you want in your own countries.”
I just brought this up to a friend of mine and this is what she said to me: It IS their culture, Megan. It’s their way of life, no matter how bad they’re treated. They’re trained to walk behind the men and cover their faces in public. I wouldnt say Islamic women LIKE it. I’m sure there are some who don’t mind it and some who do, like any other culture. I can’t stand when people deem to judge another culture. Of course you don’t understand their culture, it’s not YOUR culture. You’re not going to understand. You might think it’s barbaric or demeaning, but it’s how they live. Maybe to them it’s not barbaric or demeaning. This sent me into a rage black out and I just came out of it. And she considers herself fairly liberal! Welcome to middle america folks. Where having the balls to stand up and say oppression isn’t right, makes you narrow minded cause “you just don’t understand THEIR culture. As long as it’s THEIR’S, who cares?”
Meggygurl, your passion about oppression is commendable. Can I also suggest that you might want to read a little more from the perspective of women who do wear hijab, what some of them have to say about it and why they do it, before you go into any more rage blackouts on their behalf? There’s a lot online from various perspectives on the subject — I don’t have time to dig up any links at the moment, but maybe someone more versed in the subject than me will suggest some.
I don’t see any problem with being enraged at an idiot ‘friend’ whose response is: I don’t know anything about their culture, but I do know it is not another culture, therefore you’re not allowed to say anything bad about it. (And I believe they were talking about the burqa, not the hijab, which is a whole nuther issue.) It’s one thing to listen to women talk about their own culture; it’s another thing to say “not us! can’t judge! wouldn’t be prudent! stfu!”
I believe, like all other expressions of religion, that wearing a burqa should be a CHOICE. If a woman is truly wearing one to show her religious beliefs and her devotion to her god, then I am happy for her! It’s the forced wearing of them that I disagree with. The idea that a woman’s body is so inpure that it must be hidden from sight! Well… I can never truly be okay with that. And that might be a blindness and a fault on my end. I’m not a perfect feminist and I have my own western beliefs that taint the way I look at the world.
This discussion reminds me of a David Brin essay I read when I was in my early 20s that has always stuck with me called the Dogma of Otherness. Meggygurl’s friend seems to be a good example of it. It’s not that she is necessarily reacting to anything but her own personal upbringing of cultural chauvinism. That in her conflict of other-cultural respect and anti-oppressive liberal views otherness is prevailing. I’m not explaining myself well. You can read the essay here.
OK, you guys are totally right and I probably sounded like I was overstating before. It’s not perfectly acceptable for meggygurl’s friend to make some sort of blanket statement like, “they’re from another culture! no commentary allowed!” Also, I think you really can make some nearly-universal statements like, the enforcement and mandatory policing of certain clothing for women is oppressive, since that’s not about choice or willing participatin in a religious rule. However, I still think that the voices of Muslim women and women who live in Muslim nations should be at the forefront of who we listen to and who speaks about the issues related to burqa and enforcement of wearing burqa or hijab. That’s not incompatible with your points, I don’t thnk.
I agree with you about listening to Muslim women’s voices. Although I also believe that “listen to, don’t assume your frame of reference is always right” precludes criticism. Women in American culture go along with patriarchy and are not always honest with themselves about why they do what they do (“What men like has nothing to do with me getting a boob job!”) and I doubt women in predominantly Muslim countries are necessarily less prone to this. But that’s a dialogue–not a lecture.
MuzakBox- That was a really interesting essay! My brain kinda hurt at the end, but I agree with it. And then I didn’t if me agreeing with it is just feeding the cycle… Hee! Holly- I agree with you, completely. I wish more Muslim women *were able* to have this discussion. But… I am also not sure if this discussion should be closed off to me because I’m *not* Muslim. I have never had to wear a burqa… but I have go to school in places where the length of my shorts were measured to make sure they weren’t too short, because it would “distract the boys from learning.” I didn’t wear shorts for years because I was scared to show off my legs! And no, it’s not nearly as extreme… but don’t they both feed the same cycle? Do we have any Muslim women on here that would like to jump in and add to the conversation?
Ugh, that should read “And then I didn’t know is me agreeing with is it just feeding the cycle. It’s almost 5… I can almost leave this horrible job and my brain will be free!!!
These wingnuts really bowl me over. They hate Muslims because Muslims are supposedly all extremists, but when they come across one that is not very extreme, they criticize the lack of commetment. Goddamn.
You ask the average Muslim woman in an Arab state about wearing the burqa — or abaya in Saudi Arabia — and they will tell you they are comfortable with it. In virtually all Arab states, except Saudi Arabia, it’s optional. So who are we to judge. Why impose our Western values on what they want and what they believe in? It pisses me off that we always speak for Muslim women without ever asking for their opinion. Ask, it may surprise you.
My favorite comment: Can I beam my privates? This technology really does open the door to some wonderful possibilities. Are these guys a hoot, or what?
Some cultural practices, and by extension cultures they exist in, are not worth respecting. Its not that difficult. Its quite okay to not want FGM or child marriages happining in your neighborhood.
I’m not a perfect feminist and I have my own western beliefs that taint the way I look at the world. Are Muslim women also tainted? I hear they have beliefs and opinions, too. Or are Western women just special that way? You ask the average Muslim woman in an Arab state about wearing the burqa — or abaya in Saudi Arabia — and they will tell you they are comfortable with it. You’ve done this, have you? Tell me, because I’m curious, how did you determine which of the women you spoke to were average and which were exceptional? And how many women did you speak to before determining that you had a representative sample? You may suspect that I am not treating you with the utmost respect and seriousness right now, but do not be afraid, that is merely a Western taint; no Muslim women could ever treat you with similar facetiousness, so you need not think too hard about whatever they told some Rob person who was questioning them about their clothing choices. (You might want to consider, though, if you are able, what most Western women of your acquaintance would say to a random Saudi guy who buttonholed them at random to ask them about their clothing choices. “Fuck off” wouldn’t be the half of it, and you may be sure that this does not mean they have no problems with what they’re expected to wear.) Why impose our Western values on what they want and what they believe in? yeah, I hear people in famine-stricken countries are really into starving. What kind of arrogant westerner think they’d be happier, and more alive, if they weren’t? Well, let’s be precise: what kind of arrogant westerner thinks the female half of them would be happier? Human rights are for men and Westerners only, and let’s not forget it.
You might want to consider, though, if you are able, what most Western women of your acquaintance would say to a random Saudi guy who buttonholed them at random to ask them about their clothing choices. “Fuck off” wouldn’t be the half of it Hm. I think it depends on how the questions is asked. Many (conservative) Arab men have asked me questions as to why I wear the things I wear, why I do the things I do, etc… As long as inquiries are mutually respectful, we can dialogue. People are curious about one another, after all.
the burqa seems oppressive to me. but i have heard and read Muslim women who said they never wore the burqa until their countries’ started having more western influences, and they saw that one of those influences was the outrageous objectification of women. so they wear the burqa in response, to say, “no, i am not an object for your pleasure.” that seems like a very rational choice, hard to argue with. the key, as others have said, is that it has to be the individual woman’s choice, and in many many cases it is forced upon them. there was a report yesterday that said there was a province in Iraq where nearly 100 women had been killed in the last few months for not wearing the burqa.
I’m not a perfect feminist and I have my own western beliefs that taint the way I look at the world. Are Muslim women also tainted? I hear they have beliefs and opinions, too. Or are Western women just special that way? Umm. I believe you took what I said completely out of context. What I was trying to say was that as an American, I view the world through as Western POV, no matter how hard I try not to. Just like most people view the world through their own cultural view points. Maybe tainted was the wrong word… perhaps filter would be better? I honestly don’t see how with everything else I said, you can believe I don’t think Muslim women have opinions about their own well being… or does it not matter everything else I said. Just that one line where I was talking about my OWN views. See. This is why the conservatives are ahead of us. We keep ripping each other apart.
Men know they are increasingly inferior to the educated, independent female. They are lashing out in uber domination to attempt to squalsh this new breed of amazonian, hyper intelligent women who simply do not need them anymore. synthetic sperm is now available and with more women turning to construction, law enforcment and plumbing they are simply not needed… this is why we see so many men turning gay. as for the jordanians…well i know they marry there cousins and relatives and will soon inbreed themselves off the planets.