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Feminism and Super Tuesday

I have a piece up in Alternet about the feminist vote on Super Tuesday. I don’t stake out much of a position; it’s more an outline of where feminists are falling and what the divisive issues are.

Also worth checking out: Robin Morgan’s Goodby to All That (part 2), about why she’s voting for Clinton, and Laura Flanders’ response, wherein she argues that Clinton’s policies have actually not been all that great for women around the world.

Ann has a great (succinct) run-down of who feminists are voting for. (Damn you, Ann, why was this not up last night when I was writing my Alternet piece? You could have done all my research for me…)

Like Zuzu, I remain undecided. And for the same reasons as Zuzu — I like Clinton’s health care plan better, but Obama’s foreign policy stances are much more responsible. I’m (unsurprisingly) leaning Obama, though, for a few reasons:

1. Clinton’s foreign policy positions, including her eagerness to embrace the “Iran is next” threats and her refusal to take responsibility for her Iraq war vote, scare me.
2. Both of them have great records on choice, but the Clinton campaign’s smearing of Obama’s decision to vote “present” on an important abortion rights vote in Illinois also turns me off — Obama’s vote was part of a NARAL-organized strategy.
3. Rhetoric is important in presidential campaigns and in presidencies. It sounds silly, but at the end of the day, a president is an important figurehead whose rhetoric can make or break national unity. Obama has that thing. He is somehow able to connect with people, and he understands which messages are important to focus on. Policy positions are obviously the most important thing, but once those are solid — and Obama’s are — how you talk about them really matters a lot in getting stuff done.
4. For all of the great things that Hillary Clinton has done for women — and I don’t want to under-play those things, because she has done quite a bit — she has also made and supported decisions that sell some women out. The prime example is Clintonian “Welfare Reform,” which cut off aid to many, many low-income women. It also did significant harm to immigrant communities. And, yes, that was Bill Clinton’s policy — but Hillary came out in very public support of it. I don’t want a president who is so quick to throw poor women and immigrant women’s interests away. And Clinton is definitely not ideal on immigrant rights.

Of course, on the other hand, I’m absolutely thrilled with the prospect of a Democratic female president, and if Hillary Clinton wins the nomination, I will work very hard for her and my heart will certainly be 100 percent in it. She has worked hard for this. She has done everything right, in the face of sexist slams and horrendous attacks. She’s been walking on a tightrope for years, and she’s had to make some hard compromises. I can understand that, and I think that a lot of feminists (myself included) are harder on Clinton because our expectations for her are so very high. We want her to be the perfect feminist, and instead she’s an excellent politician.

I do think there’s a lot of value in having a female figureheard in office, and arguments that “the feminist thing to do is to vote for whoever you like better” don’t really appeal to me. Feminists have long championed the importance of women in positions of power, and letters like this one illustrate why it’s so important to have positive, powerful female role models.

But it’s also important to have strong role models of color, and to have a president who represents your values. I will work very hard for whoever wins. I will be satisfied with either candidate. But I think that I’ll be excited if Obama gets the nomination, and that, for me, makes all the difference.

Super Tuesday stuff will be going up on Alternet throughout the day, so keep checking back.


86 thoughts on Feminism and Super Tuesday

  1. I was watching Tucker Carlson yesterday afternoon and he had an Obama spokesman as a guest. I wish I could remember the name of the man but I cannot. They were speaking of abortion and the spokesman said that “every abortion is a tragedy” and that “we need to education women to make better choices.” I do not consider every abortion to be a tragedy, sometimes it is the best decision a woman can make for herself. I also wondered why there was no discussion of education men to make better decisions about impregnating woman who are not ready to bare children. Taken with Obama’s “present” votes in the Illinois state senate, it makes we wonder about his true committment to choices. As a middle aged women more than old enough to remember the pro-choice days it makes me very nervous about him. Although there are anti-choice women I’ll take a pro-choice woman over a pro-choice man every time, so put me in the Hillary column.

  2. I, for one, am grateful that I can find at least one dem/progressive political post that isn’t incredibly nasty about one of the candidates. There really isn’t a vast difference between them, and they’d both make fine leaders.

  3. Robin Morgan wrote very eloquently about how Hillary Clinton has been the target of sexist abuse. But while that’s deplorable, it’s not, in and of itself, a reason to vote for her. Jill’s reasons for leaning toward Obama sum up, very neatly, why I just voted for him.

    And carol h, Clinton has done the “abortion-is-tragic” thing, too—just follow the link to Laura Flanders’s piece. That whole abortion-as-tragedy trope is pro-choicers’ attempt to “reach out” to abortion opponents, which to my mind is a waste of time.

  4. They were speaking of abortion and the spokesman said that “every abortion is a tragedy” and that “we need to education women to make better choices.”

    Isn’t that awfully similar to Clinton’s position, though? I thought she was the one who got all the publicity for the “safe, legal, and rare” catchphrase (which I personally loathe – would prefer “safe, legal, and without judgment” myself, but then I’d also like a pony).

  5. Taken with Obama’s “present” votes in the Illinois state senate, it makes we wonder about his true committment to choices.

    People not part of Hillary’s disinformation campaign realize Barack voted “present” at the specific request of the director of Illinois Planned Parenthood, against his stated desire to vote no. Further, although citing unknown spokesman is consistent with an anti-Obama smear campaign, I think even the staunchest pro-choice person views abortion as a last although vitally necessary resort: birth control, including Plan B, is far preferable. The goal is to keep abortion safe and legal, not more frequent.

  6. Clinton’s and Obama’s health care plans are very similar. The big difference is that Clinton will mandate health insurance, and Obama won’t. It sounds great that everyone will be covered because of Clinton, but do we really know if people will be able to afford it? She says that premiums will be a low percentage of your income, but will insurance companies really offer insurance that everyone can afford? I imagine someone on minimum wage with asthma and diabetes is not going to be able to pay anywhere near enough for anyone willing to insure her. There’s subsidies, but I’d really rather see government money go towards single payer instead of making private insurance rich. Even if someone can afford health insurance, it might not cover enough for it to be worth it. I recently switched insurance (switched jobs) and I’m seriously thinking of dumping it because they don’t pay for anything. Birth control is $30, my pap wasn’t covered (that’s $165), they covered all of $30 of the routine blood screenings (cholesterol, etc) my doctor thought I should get, leaving me to pay $120, and despite the fact that my card says that doctor visit co-pays are $15, appearently because I have a deductible as well I have to pay the whole $140 (which I find out after the doctor’s visit). So that’s $325 in medical bills in 2 months of insurance. It would probably be easier and cheaper to not have insurance and just ask what things cost instead of hoping whatever is covered and then getting a bill I can’t afford. I hate insurance companies, and I’d be really pissed if Hillary’s plan meant my wages get garnished for that bullshit.

  7. Great post Jill, although as an undecided voter you’re making my head hurt. The only thing I disagree with is the responsibility for her vote. She’s done the “if I knew then” bit and has a plan to withdraw and to me that is sufficient. I somewhat agree on the Iran thing, she gets a little too hawkish, but when it came up in a past debate I thought she made alot of sense (about meeting with leaders etc). If I could just throw one idea out here as to the main reason why I’m leaning toward Clinton; I think it will ultimately be easier to move to the center dealing with a congress that only barely has a dem majority than it is to push a farther left agenda. And that’s why Clinton is appealing to me, she has alot of sensible plans that I think would get through, while for all of Obama’s talk of change, ultimately it is easier said than done. I think its pragmatism vs idealism and with all the damage that’s been done it’s going to take a methodical approach to undo it all. Just my thoughts.

  8. It sounds great that everyone will be covered because of Clinton, but do we really know if people will be able to afford it? She says that premiums will be a low percentage of your income, but will insurance companies really offer insurance that everyone can afford?

    Paul Krugman explains the differences in coverage here.

  9. That Morgan piece is a bit ridiculous. Mary Jo Kopechne? The thing that Morgan really doesn’t want to say goodbye to is boomer self-absorption.

  10. I guess I just can’t believe how many people are so dreamy over Obama’s “big, broad mind” as one woman interviewed on CNN put it. Debate after debate has shown that his talk is mostly “let’s just all love each other” vague generalities without specifics. Didn’t we watch most of the country fall for the “popular” candidate last time who promised to be a “uniter, not a divider” and who everyone would rather have a beer with? Make no mistake about it…Hillary will get the job done. And I’m just so sad to see women rake her over the coals for not being perfect, which is what we’re all pressed to be day in and day out. I’m just utterly shocked that a woman would not vote for the candidate ready to be an effective president on day one and who is a woman. I’m just completely baffled by this.

  11. Further, although citing unknown spokesman is consistent with an anti-Obama smear campaign, I think even the staunchest pro-choice person views abortion as a last although vitally necessary resort: birth control, including Plan B, is far preferable. The goal is to keep abortion safe and legal, not more frequent.

    I’m sorry that I don’t remember the name of the guy. I checked the Tucker Carlson archives to see if the show from yesterday is up yest but it is not. I assure you I saw it and am not part of an “anti-Obama smear.” Clinton’s position of “safe, legal, and rare” is much different than saying “every abortion is a tragedy.” Of course birth control and Plan B are the best options but all abortions are not tragedies, sometimes abortion is the best option for a woman.

  12. If I could just throw one idea out here as to the main reason why I’m leaning toward Clinton; I think it will ultimately be easier to move to the center dealing with a congress that only barely has a dem majority than it is to push a farther left agenda.

    SH, the problem with that is that Democrats have been moving to the “center” for a decade while the Republicans shift right. The Democratic Party is now somewhere to the right of Richard Nixon, who established the Environmental Protection Agency and supported decriminalizing drug use.

    I’m really tired of being told that we need to move to the “center” when the center keeps being moved further and further right. Time to jerk things over to the left for a corrective.

  13. Thanks for that link, Zuzu. I’m just skeptical of Clinton’s ability to actually make insurance affordable for everyone. I know too many people who can’t afford insurance now. Some of them live paycheck to paycheck, and some months they can’t afford to pay all their existing bills. How are they going to afford insurance once its mandatory? I don’t think Medicaid’s going to expand to to cover all of them, and a percentage of their income is still more than they have to spare, especially if it’s going to be crappy insurance like mine. Let’s see if we can make insurance affordable to everyone before we start making it mandatory.

  14. I’m really tired of being told that we need to move to the “center” when the center keeps being moved further and further right. Time to jerk things over to the left for a corrective.

    I’m hearing ya. But I think maybe what I’m feeling is not so much left/right as big/small, and it goes back to the pragmatism issue as well. Every time I look at any policy plan of Clinton then look at Obama’s I see more feasability in her plan. And I like the way she basically says things are still going to suck for a little while but I’m going to fix it and most importantly here’s how. When I look at Obama it’s all just change and unity and rainbows and puppies and I’m wondering how’s he going to pull anything off? I don’t really think Hillary is as much of a centrist as she’s portrayed. She’s just more methodical in a way that appears conservative but I see as practical. I also don’t think Obama is as left as he is portrayed either, it’s only on the foreign policy issues that I really see that. I think if you look back at Bill Clinton’s campaign he appeared far more left than he turned out to be. I have a feeling Obama will turn out the same way and its mostly out of necessity. It seems to me there’s only to ways to get anything done a) compromise and take what you can get or b) lie your ass off and wipe your ass with every constitutional amendment that keeps your power in check, as Bush did/does. I’ll take the former over the latter even if the cause is just.

  15. And I’m just so sad to see women rake her over the coals for not being perfect, which is what we’re all pressed to be day in and day out. I’m just utterly shocked that a woman would not vote for the candidate ready to be an effective president on day one and who is a woman. I’m just completely baffled by this.

    Perhaps because our idea of what an “effective president” means is different than hers?

  16. marle – i am no economist, but my understanding of the issue is that, ironically enough, healthy people like your friends choosing to opt out of insurance drives costs up for everyone. the logic of a mandate is that it will bring more healthy people into the pool of the insured, lowering costs for all.

    feminists for obama raise some good points, and it’s not difficult to find things to like about obama – he’s a great candidate. and it’s true that the policy differences between clinton and obama are minimal. this is why it upsets me to see hillary’s vote for the war in iraq used against her. no one, absolutely NO ONE voted for what we see now. clinton, in voting for the AUMF, could not have anticipated the ignorance, hubris and cultural insensitivity of the bush administration in reconstructing iraq. and, ridiculous or no, the brutalities of saddam’s regime seem to be swept under the rug in the rush to congratulate obama for anticipating the gigantic, brutal blunder that has been operation iraqi freedom. kudos to him – he was right. however, he very publicly advocated going into the Pakistani FATA to fight terrorism given ‘actionable intelligence’. even less different from hillary – and GWB – than you thought. politics requires compromise, and terrorism and failed states are not neocon inventions – and both democratic candidates WILL have to deal with them if and when they arrive in the white house. a vote for the AUMF was not a vote for 2 million Iraqi refugees and 4,000 american dead – it was a vote against nuclear proliferation by a dangerous dictator.

    one of the biggest tragedies of the bush administration has been the cultural relativism backlash it has inspired. how does one manage to make living under saddam hussein look good? i am equally sad to see that “trying to look tough on terror” is so mocked among liberals as i am to see the jingoism and fearmongering it has inspired among conservatives.

    and, right or wrong, i am sad to see feminists not supporting hillary.

  17. I’m definitely not an expert on the issue, and I don’t at all want to say one shouldn’t be skeptical about the health care/ insurance issue. But if anyone wanted to research this further, you could look at what’s going on in my state, Massachusetts, which does have mandated insurance. The way they make sure everyone can afford it is that the state offers free and low-cost insurance for people who otherwise can’t, and it also requires that businesses pay for (a certain percentage?) of employees’ insurance. It costs the state money and it costs businesses money, and I’m sure there are people who fall through the cracks. But there really does seem like a sincere effort to make sure low-income individuals can get health coverage. And I do not use the word “sincere” lightly, as it is a word I rarely use in relation to politicians.

  18. Goodbye to a campaign where he has to pass as white (which whites — especially wealthy ones — adore), while she has to pass as male (which both men and women demanded of her, and then found unforgivable).

    Good ol’ Robin Morgan. /sarcasm

  19. And I’m just so sad to see women rake her over the coals for not being perfect, which is what we’re all pressed to be day in and day out.

    I was more into raking her over the coals for saying some things I consider utterly evil in a far-right wingnut conservative kind of way, which is something I would like to press every politician not to do, day in and day out. You can’t really expect politicians to be perfect, regardless of their gender or race. But you can at least expect them to have some shreds of decency and progressive values, which in my mind Clinton proved that she did not, in the last few weeks. Up until then, I was very solidly undecided.

    Honestly? I wouldn’t vote for Margaret Thatcher or Indira Ghandi either. They both committed atrocities against their own citizens, and I would rather have yet another mediocre male president than vote for a female president whose politics make me shudder. There’s some value in being a groundbreaking trendsetter and pushing that glass ceiling up, but I am less concerned for those hitting the glass ceiling than I am for those try to get up off of the floor where all the people reaching for the ceiling keep stepping on them.

    Anyway Amanda already said it better than me.

  20. Hilary came out strong for welfare reform because she, as every other person who actually worked for children, recognized that when children are the source of income they will be exploited. Only people who do not live the last week of the month without food money say things like no one will have another child just to get more welfare. When 15 year olds get their own apt because they have a baby, they will have babies. And children don’t make good parents.

    We were breeding generations of the hopeless – income had to be removed from pregnancy. Whatever subsidies replace traditional welfare, they cannot be dependent on breeding because it leads to abuse, depression, hopelessness and neglect.

    For generations children have been used as income and it has to stop. I am not against economic aid to the poor – far from it, but I will fight aid tied to the production of children. Why should education grants be tied to women with children as they were under traditional welfare. Why did poor women have to have a baby before they could get college or technical job training grants? Single childless women are still denied the aid given to women with children – this is crazy.

    The traditional welfare system was unfair to single women who make up a great number of the poor in this country and it is unfair to children, who despite what the liberals tell you ARE produced to increase the welfare check when that is the only option. When you do not have food the last week of the month an extra 80 dollars looks good to your boyfriend who doesn’t take care of the kids anyway. It is a vicious circle.

    The abuse of a flawed system was not just a fantasy. The stories came from people who witnessed the abuses.

    Don’t blame Hillary for hurting poor mothers. She saw what you did not, along with the Children’s Defense Fund and knowing more than you acted to make institutional change. Aid should not be attached to reproduction. It should be available to all individuals on an equal basis and not be increased based on the number of children produced. The poor have to limit their reproduction to what they can afford just like everyone else. The welfare system as it was, ignored that reality.

    Criticize those who did not substitute other programs but do not criticize Hilary for eliminating welfare attached to reproduction and increased based on more reproduction.

    Hilary supported corresponding changes in the child support system which for the first time in this county’s history legally forced males to pay for the children they produced. Flawed – imperfect yes – but the flaws are not to be blamed on Hilary. I am fighting those flaws and they are the fault of congress as a whole and sexism.

  21. Aid should not be attached to reproduction. It should be available to all individuals on an equal basis and not be increased based on the number of children produced. The poor have to limit their reproduction to what they can afford just like everyone else. The welfare system as it was, ignored that reality.

    I agree that poor childless people should receive aid, too — but are you seriously arguing that a childless woman should receive the same amount in aid as a woman with children? What about the fact that children cost money? And if you think women are popping out babies for more welfare dollars, you’re nuts. An extra $80 a month does not support a child.

    And please don’t tell me what I know and what I’ve seen. You have no idea.

  22. and you will live with the results, M – I hope you get a traditional exploitative welfare system from him but I doubt it – he lets other people take the blame for what he will not change. In fact he is talking about gutting other more universal systems.

    Tomorrow if Hilary is out, will you still call yourself feminists? I am laughing my bitter laugh because this is really funny. You can play games but what is because of women like you, Obama actually wins the nomination and you don’t have Hillary to blame for not being perfect anymore?

    This is hilarious – I look forward to it actually.

  23. Well you know those welfare moms, they’re all on crack anyway, they just neglect their kids and let their babies take the food stamps to go buy candy and cheap bourbon, right? Child labor + neglect + mom’s boyfriend is a drug dealer and buys them all FUBU = WELFARE MOMS GOT IT MADE IN THE USA

    It’s nice to see that in talking about the pre-Clintonian welfare system, we can also resurrect all those good old fun stereotypes about “welfare moms” too.

  24. You can play games but what is because of women like you, Obama actually wins the nomination and you don’t have Hillary to blame for not being perfect anymore?

    Expecting women to vote for Hillary Clinton because she’s a woman and we’re women represents some of the worst, most morally bankrupt principles of white, middle-class American feminism.

    Wait, I have an even better idea! Let’s just pick a single issue, and vote EXCLUSIVELY on that issue, like we’re brain-dead robots. How about reproductive rights? No wait, I know… how about gay rights? Hillary was just like, I’m gonna get rid of “don’t ask don’t tell” this time, and make sure gay people can adopt! I totally believe her. I’m sure Bill wanted to last time too, it just wasn’t the right time yet. Oh, how I miss the halcyon days of the Clinton White House, when life got better for all the liberals in America, except for all the ones whose life got worse…

  25. Now now, Holly, let’s not be polemic here — good feminists like me also vote for the candidate who will readily invade Muslim countries in order to free all those poor oppressed women from the headscarf. Headscarves and abortion — what else is there to feminism?

  26. To be fair to Bill (it’s good practice), he did try to end discrimination against gays in the military. It just turned out that he was too much of a wimp to deal with it when he hit opposition. Senator Clinton may be made of sterner stuff. But I have my doubts…

  27. Aww but I like polemics!

    I mean face it — without Hillary to raise up that glass ceiling, how will all the other white lawyer ladies be able to go into politics and emulate her? I mean, who cares about welfare moms and immigrant mothers being separated from their children, and women in Iraq and whoever else Clinton wants to throw under the cart to make her look tough on (BAD BAD THING OF THE WEEK) — those people are never going to reach the glass ceiling anyway! Let’s focus on what’s important — getting more women into positions of power, where we can step on others.

    POWER TO THE PEOPLE WOMEN WHO ARE PRIVILEGED ENOUGH TO SEIZE POWER

  28. JILL
    Your article was excellent – but yes – aid should not be connected to reproduction although children can be subsidized with food at school – school uniforms and medical care apart from cash to parents. You do not know what I have seen either but my analysis is a feminist analysis which is different than a woman centered analysis which you are espousing. People often confuse the two.

    I know people who had children for the extra 80 dollars, mostly because their boyfriends demanded it but also because the culture was tolerant of producing children in poverty. But it does not matter – economic aid should not be tied to reproduction — we used to say welfare was just another version of the man – think about it.

  29. and you will live with the results, M – I hope you get a traditional exploitative welfare system from him but I doubt it – he lets other people take the blame for what he will not change.

    Funny, you talk about an “exploitative welfare system” like I do, but I’m concerned about welfare recipients being exploited by the system. You seem to think that everyone on welfare is exploiting it for that sweet, sweet extra $80 a month. Because you can live REALLY high on $500 a month!

    But I guess you won’t be happy with the welfare system until you get to step over the bodies of welfare mothers and their starved babies in the street as you go into your high-rise office.

  30. It feels very principled, taking gender out of the equation and voting on fairly minimal policy and charisma differences. Of course, for many people, both men and women, gender’s a big part of the equation, and they’ll vote against Hillary because of it. If women proudly excise it out of the equation, nothing will counterbalance this inevitablity, and sexism will rear its ugly head yet again. Go Robin.

  31. For a more in depth discussion of the economic and opportunity choices that are involved in poor black girls deciding to have kids, I’d recommend this discussion over at Alas, a Blog as well as the research on teen choice and pregnancy that he links to by Arline Geronimus. It’s a whole lot more nuanced and humanizing than telling anecdotes about “oh yeah, people totally have babies to get another 80 bucks a week, we can’t have that!”

  32. It feels very principled, taking gender out of the equation and voting on fairly minimal policy and charisma differences. Of course, for many people, both men and women, gender’s a big part of the equation, and they’ll vote against Hillary because of it. If women proudly excise it out of the equation, nothing will counterbalance this inevitablity, and sexism will rear its ugly head yet again. Go Robin.

    I agree with you on this in principle, actually. But it would still be awfully hard not to vote your conscience if the only countervailing motivation was simply attempting to counteract the vote of some sexist asshole.

    Of course, the same principle is true of race as well, c.f. the well-documented Bradley Effect where way more people claim they’re going to vote for a black candidate than actually do. Which battle are you going to fight today? It’s an impossible choice unless you really think you can rank oppressions, perhaps according to your personal interests. (As a woman of color, well, doesn’t work so well for me.) Or maybe according to what kind of issues you’re totally clueless about, as Gloria Steinem demonstrated for us all a while back. (And then Gary Kamiya helpfully managed to do in reverse, being just as clueless about sexism.) And in the middle, all the bloggy essays about trying to vote on conscience and principle and the issues, rather than race or gender. Good luck, all.

  33. Holly — that’s valid re Bradley effect, and I’m not attempting to rank oppressions.

    My point is this. I think there’s more friction among women about feminism etc. than among POC about racism. More women think a woman should not be president, I’d bet, than POC think a POC should not be president. We all know there are female pundits who’ve stated they don’t think women should have the vote. And there are probably many more women who aren’t in the public eye who have those beliefs.

    I don’t have a sense as to whether more white people would vote against Obama than men against Clinton. But I do hear much more anti-Clinton discussion from white women than anti-Obama discussion from black men. As Earl Ofari Hutchinson says here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/earl-ofari-hutchinson/women-wont-elect-hillary_b_47682.html.

    So yeah, while I’m a white woman, I don’t believe sexism is more critical or significant than racism. But I do think it will operate more harshly against this particular woman.

  34. Hillary was just like, I’m gonna get rid of “don’t ask don’t tell” this time, and make sure gay people can adopt! I totally believe her. I’m sure Bill wanted to last time too, it just wasn’t the right time yet. Oh, how I miss the halcyon days of the Clinton White House, when life got better for all the liberals in America, except for all the ones whose life got worse…

    Holy freaking god can we admit that expecting Hillary to do the exact same thing that her husband did in office is a tad sexist in of itself???? Nobody seemed to concerned with that issue when they were trying to draft Al Gore into running again. Seriously, what is the deal with that?

    without Hillary to raise up that glass ceiling, how will all the other white lawyer ladies be able to go into politics and emulate her?

    now her being a woman doesn’t matter because she’s white and a lawyer so she had it good and doesn’t understand real women?? Seems to me it was a “white lawyer lady” who got you the right to vote in the first place. Not to mention Jill who is training to be a lawyer lady herself. Since when is a woman’s success used against her? Oh wait I know the answer, do you? Are people even reading what they’re writing on this thread anymore? And yes I think Virginia Ray is way off base but it would appear she has plenty of company.

  35. More women think a woman should not be president, I’d bet, than POC think a POC should not be president.

    I absolutely agree with you on this, and I think it’s related to the high percentage of women who say they would rather have a male boss than a female boss. I think we all know about the dynamics that go on there. It’s also more acceptable to express sexist beliefs in this country than racist ones. I think Steinem actually outlined all of that fairly well — it’s just that it led her to the conclusion that sexism is a bigger issue that we have to face. Which was only possible because she did not turn her gaze on any of the real problems of racism at all.

    I think there is an interesting discussion here that hasn’t really emerged — how do racism and sexism operate differently in our society? It’s been hinted at by the line “it’s easier for Obama to be an exceptional black man than it is for Clinton to be an exceptional woman.” I think the glass ceiling is much more solid in the case of a white woman than in the case of a black man. However, I don’t think that’s the issue that should decide this primary election, or that anyone should vote on. Why? Why don’t I think this glaring form of sexism is a crucial issue? Simply put, because it’s about the glass ceiling, and the glass ceiling is only important to those who have the opportunity to seize power. We know from plenty of experience (Margaret Thatcher, Clarence Thomas, the list goes on) that power does not “trickle down” from those who break through the ceiling to all the disenfranchised.

    This is why I have been getting so frustrated with arguments (not yours, octo) that hinge entirely on the presence of women or black people or [Minority X] in the highest echelons of power. What does this say or mean for the rest of us? Clarence Thomas, Condoleeza Rice, Benazir Bhutto? Aside from the fact that it’s great for little kids to have role models that look like them in high places (if you don’t care about the character or politics of the role models) what good are they? I keep hearing people say that they think sexism is actually the biggest source of oppression in our society and the proof is that there aren’t enough women in the highest echelons. But one has nothing to do with the other. Unless you really think that women are somehow inherently better, more noble, more moral, more peacelike, or more compassionate (all forms of Victorian “positive” sexist stereotypes) then there’s no reason to believe the power-holders will help the oppressed JUST because they have the same genitals or the same skin. (Clinton’s published positions on reproductive rights, I have to say, are far more impressive than Obama’s, but I am not a single-issue voter.)

    The depth of our floor is far more important to me than the height of our ceiling. I do not want to vote for the purpose of putting someone in power; putting someone in power is pretty much always a bad thing, even if you regard it as a necessary evil. The reason to vote, in my mind, is to try and move the nation towards a situation in which more power will be redistributed. Where more of the people down on the floor will receive the privileges, the benefits (the health care), and the rights and powers of those near the ceilling.

  36. Holy freaking god can we admit that expecting Hillary to do the exact same thing that her husband did in office is a tad sexist in of itself???? Nobody seemed to concerned with that issue when they were trying to draft Al Gore into running again. Seriously, what is the deal with that?

    It’s not because she’s the wife and he’s the husband — it’s because they pretty much use the same campaigning tactics, in her Senate race as well. Plus, even if you subtract all of the sexist stereotypes about who’s in charge? Clinton and Clinton are still partners in ways that Gore and Clinton were not once their terms were over, and Clinton was admirably active in the earlier Clinton administration. You don’t to believe something absurd and misogynist like “Bill’s really the one calling the shots” to take note of any of this.

    now her being a woman doesn’t matter because she’s white and a lawyer so she had it good and doesn’t understand real women??

    Read my latest post. The race and class of the candidate absolutely does matter in this kind of “glass ceiling” argument — not for Hillary herself, but it matters in terms of who is making these kinds of arguments on her behalf. Self-interest is not mysteriously absent from this picture.

  37. M
    “But I guess you won’t be happy with the welfare system until you get to step over the bodies of welfare mothers and their starved babies in the street as you go into your high-rise office”

    I totally understand this anger and often feel it myself. But the traditional welfare system only profited welfare pimps. The people in the offices got the government jobs and the women got screwed by everything. Welfare tied to reproduction hurt and limited women. You said it yourself – 550 a month whoopee.

    And it really hurt children. We can have a system which assists people out of poverty but it cannot be tied to reproduction. That is the man’s model. It didn’t work except to keep women barefoot and pregnant.

    You have to think about the woman as an individual. Benefits must be based on the individual not in homage to some ideal of woman as mother. Poor women have to be helped to self-sufficiency. But the state even under the best of circumstances will limit what it does. Reproduction makes self sufficiency harder.

    Also we need to respect the earth and other species who also need space to live. It is all connected. So should be our policy.

    But do you see why many people simply could not continue with the system as it was? Women were getting babies at younger and younger ages – people would no longer accept it as it was for very good reasons.

    You can argue with what was put in its’ place. What is Obama suggesting?

  38. I don’t think you can expect that Hillary will take the same stances in 2008 that Bill did on LGBT issues in 1992. A lot’s changed since then, notably public attitudes towards LGBT issues.

    Certainly, you can say that the tactics she’ll employ will be similar, but I don’t think that you can say that substantively we’ll get a repeat of Bill’s presidency. Less so if the Dems don’t lose Congress like they did in 1994.

    And, ahem. White lawyer lady here. We may be better off than a lot of women, but there are still real glass-ceiling issues, both within the legal profession and in politics. The attrition rates alone are staggering, with more than half of all law students now female but a small fraction of law partners.

  39. With all due respect for women who face the glass ceiling (I deal with one every day myself) I just wrote extensively about why I don’t think the glass ceiling should be a decisive electoral issue. The glass ceiling is an issue that affects privileged people who have some access to power and seek more access to power. That was my point — not any kind of imagined slight towards white lawyer ladies, many of whom I love and respect and admire dearly.

    You have a point about whether or not to expect repeats — and speaking rationally (rather than in absurdist polemics) that’s not precisely what I’m concerned about. I really had been looking forward to voting for a woman for president, until I got sucker-punched by her incredibly disgusting comments about immigrants and due process. So I’m afraid that has colored a lot of my perceptions of Clinton’s candidacy, and I can’t claim to be neutral at this point. (But I will say that I don’t like Obama either. I never really expect to like any presidential candidate, it’s hoping for too much.)

  40. Holly I didn’t read your latest post because I think we’re writing at the same time. I think you’re saying that Clinton being a woman in of itself does not mean she will help women. And I agree to that to some extent but also I would point out that being a white woman who is a lawyer sure as hell doesn’t mean that she doesn’t understand other women or will help other women less fortunate. Getting women into power is also important for the simple reason that they deserve to be there just as much as any man does and they have been denied in the past because of their gender. The same points can be made for people of color.

    It ultimately seems like a self defeating stance though because once coming into power the powerless cease to be so and by your view will no longer want change, therefore change can never happen. How exactly does your vision of change get realized without, well, people? I’m not trying to be a smartass I’m just saying you want movement but don’t seem to trust any mover, so to speak.

    I believe there have been people of color and women who have come to power and made real change in people’s lives. I believe Hillary Clinton and Obama are both examples of that even at this point. I also think there were white privileged men who made huge changes as well. As for Bill Clinton I still say his record is his legacy alone. I don’t care what she supported, I care what she’s done. And I refuse to disbelieve her proposals because her husband went back on campaign promises. He also fucked up his marriage vows pretty well but that doesn’t mean Hillary did or will do so. I’m not even sure I agree with the point that they have similar campaign styles. If anything I can remember Clinton’s original campaign and it strongly resembles Obama’s current one right down to the constant references to hope and change.

  41. Oh, I don’t think it should be a decisive electoral issue, either; I just don’t think that it’s something that should be dismissed simply because it’s an issue faced by women of privilege. I also disagree that it’s solely an issue of privilege; you don’t have to be running for president to feel it. Nor do you have to be terribly privileged — look, for example, at the paucity of women in the skilled trades. I think the glass ceiling stuff resonates because most women have some experience of being shut out of advancement, or being told that they’re not good enough because they’re women. This is true even if they have no hope of bumping up against the kind of glass ceiling that Clinton does; even within the same race or class, women are not going to do as well as men.

    I really had been looking forward to voting for a woman for president, until I got sucker-punched by her incredibly disgusting comments about immigrants and due process. So I’m afraid that has colored a lot of my perceptions of Clinton’s candidacy, and I can’t claim to be neutral at this point.

    Then you have serious policy differences with her, and shouldn’t be neutral. If nothing else, it’s her own negative, and not Bill’s.

  42. I think you’re saying that Clinton being a woman in of itself does not mean she will help women.

    That was part of my point. The other part was that this:

    Getting women into power is also important for the simple reason that they deserve to be there just as much as any man does and they have been denied in the past because of their gender. The same points can be made for people of color.

    … whether it’s about race or gender, is not an action item that I think should be high on our list when it comes to righting the wrongs of the world. Our society is a gigantic pyramid. Trying to shove more people up on top of the pyramid is not something I consider especially worthwhile. There simply isn’t much merit in “now it’s our turn to have some of the power too” that you seem to think is an end in and of itself. I don’t think it’s wrong, in fact I would consider it a minor positive good — especially since little kids ought to feel like they can grow up to be anything they want. But beyond that, how does having a person of “type X” actually help the disenfranchised? It certainly didn’t help poor black folks when Clarence Thomas got onto the Supreme Court. It certainly didn’t help poor women in the UK when Margaret Thatcher took power.

    I would point out that being a white woman who is a lawyer sure as hell doesn’t mean that she doesn’t understand other women or will help other women less fortunate.

    Sure, of course. And it doesn’t mean that she does understand other women or will help other women less fortunate. It means absolutely: Nothing. At. All. I think Hillary Clinton will be good on SOME women’s issues because she’s Hillary Clinton, on her own merits. Not because she’s a woman. If that were true, then Ann Coulter or Imelda Marcos or any number of other people would also be great candidates, right?

    I believe there have been people of color and women who have come to power and made real change in people’s lives.

    And that’s a reason to vote for other POCs or women who seek power… why? As opposed to evaluating them on their politics, policies, or other merits of their own? (Which really, is what any of us hope that others judge us on.) I do definitely believe that Clinton’s politics are influenced by her gender, Obama’s by his racial background. But not every woman or every POC arrives at the same place (c.f. Thomas, Thatcher). You must judge them as individuals.

    It ultimately seems like a self defeating stance though because once coming into power the powerless cease to be so and by your view will no longer want change, therefore change can never happen. How exactly does your vision of change get realized without, well, people? I’m not trying to be a smartass I’m just saying you want movement but don’t seem to trust any mover, so to speak.

    Ahhhhh the paradox of the revolution comes into play? Yes, this is an eternal problem, of course. If you want a simple answer, I’ll just go back to the ceilling/floor thing. A lot of these arguments have been about “who should we raise the ceiling for — candidate A, or candidate B?” Now, both of these candidates already have a lot of power — they’re Senators. They’re some of the most powerful people in the entire world. Given that there’s not necessarily any correlation between someone’s skin color or genitals and their loyalty to all the other disenfranchised people in the world who are oppressed on those grounds… the “who should we raise the ceilling for” question ends up being materially about (as opposed to symbolically about) nothing more than raising someone’s power from “extremely powerful” to “unimaginably powerful.” Or to put it another way, giving one of the board of directors a raise from $1 million to $1.5 million. There are more people in an administration than a president, but it’s still a bunch of politically powerful people.

    Who cares about a glass-ceiling issue like this? Well, not to point fingers at any particular person in the room, but one very cynical answer is “those who are closer to power will, in their own self-interest, care more about this.” I don’t like to believe that too much, though. Makes me depressed.

    The real question ought to be — which of these candidates is going to be more effective at using their power to GIVE power to more people who have little or none? The disenfranchised, those robbed of their rights, people who have poor opportunity and poor outcome. If we admit that the candidate’s skin color and genitals ALONE have little bearing on this question, and we really have to evaluate the whole person and their politics, their political machine, their statements on the issues… well, that’s all I’m really asking for. And that destroys all of this “you have to vote for Hillary Clinton because she’s a woman and you’re a feminist” nonsense.

    This is absolutely the curse of electoral politics. It’s why a lot of people I know refuse to even vote or engage in discussions like this. For them, working on the ground to empower as many disenfranchised people as possible and get them the privileges that others take for granted holds vastly more political meaning and moral weight than casting a single vote for which powerful person will become ultra-powerful.

    I am happy to cede the points about Bill Clinton and admit that I was wrong, that I was being snarky and obnoxious and making character attacks (although without sexist assumptions). I plead guilty to unnecessary and antagonizing hyperbolic polemic.

  43. Nor do you have to be terribly privileged — look, for example, at the paucity of women in the skilled trades.

    You’re absolutely right about this, and this is an example of a “ceiling” that’s far lower to the ground than the presidency or other examples that are oft-discussed because they’re prominent, famous, etc. Those, we should be talking about. A skilled trade worker has more privilege than someone who can’t get a position like that, to be sure. But we’re very far away from the highest echelons of power at that point.

    This is true even if they have no hope of bumping up against the kind of glass ceiling that Clinton does; even within the same race or class, women are not going to do as well as men.

    And at the lower range, away from the management classes and the politicians in office and the mostly-male boardrooms… this is also where racism becomes much more prominent too. Where black people don’t have the same opportunities as white people, because of poverty, educational disparity, and so on. Even within the same gender, an average black person is not given the same opportunities as an average white person. There’s another difference here — it’s a lot more difficult sometimes to talk about race because so much of it is statistical, institutional, extant in patterns that interlace with class throughout our society. Sexism can be pointed out as affecting every single woman, in all situations but the most misogyny-free-zones. But that doesn’t make it rank higher on the oppression scale. I think we have to engage in more conversations about how oppressions operate differently if we’re really going to dismantle the idea that you can rank oppressions, or choose to “solve one group’s problems (usually your own) first.”

  44. The real question ought to be — which of these candidates is going to be more effective at using their power to GIVE power to more people who have little or none?

    Yeah, the problem is that there really isn’t a clear difference between them as far as I’m concerned. They each have strengths and weaknesses in different areas, and it probably comes down to which issues are important to you.

  45. Holly, I think one of the major differences between sexism and racism is that every family has at least one woman, but it’s very easy for white people to go their entire lives without really knowing any people of color. Which has two effects; one, it’s very easy to Other and/or erase racial minorities; two, it’s very easy for women to internalize sexism and misogyny because more often than not, they live with men (and it’s very easy for men to do the same). So they’re both damaging, but in slightly different ways.

  46. Yeah, as I said, I’m not super-fond of Obama either — and it’s precisely because of what you point out in #48. It was Clinton’s blatant disregard for immigrants and criminalized people at the margins, both areas I do care about a lot and am personally connected to, that really tipped me. Obama might be worse on gay rights, which also affect me very directly in multiple ways, but honestly? I can’t bring myself to care as much about the minor differences there. The main things I like Clinton more for are the health care mandate and being slightly more solid on repro rights.

    And yeah, I think you are definitely onto something about othering vs. internalizing. I have to say though… there are a whooooooole lot of people of color out there with internalized racism, or who expend a lot of energy trying to pretend, despite what happens to them and their communities, that everything is “colorblind.” Women live with men, and it’s definitely more personal for that reason. But every person of color also lives in a culture that at its roots was created by and for white people. I come from a family that’s part white and part male and part straight and part not each of those things. And I guess I think… well, I don’t know what I think other than that we all got some ugly shit to deal with in our heads, either from exposure OR lack of exposure.

  47. And I guess I think… well, I don’t know what I think other than that we all got some ugly shit to deal with in our heads, either from exposure OR lack of exposure.

    Yep.

    One good thing about this election cycle is that some of those rocks will be turned over, and some ugly shit is going to come out. Which will be painful, but necessary. Sunlight being the best disinfectant and all.

  48. And that’s a reason to vote for other POCs or women who seek power… why? As opposed to evaluating them on their politics, policies, or other merits of their own?

    You’re kind of making my argument for me here and vice versa I think. I’m not saying they deserve to be in power I’m saying they deserve to have access to it. And the fact that they have been denied power has nothing to do with their politics, policies or other merits of their own. So when they get power I say yay. I don’t have to vote for them, mind you but I celebrate the accomplishment. And If Obama or Clinton get into power I will celebrate the accomplishment.

    The real question ought to be — which of these candidates is going to be more effective at using their power to GIVE power to more people who have little or none?

    Well there is the argument that power corrupts therefore neither will. But that’s way depressing, so from an optimistic standpoint I kind of believe both would if given the chance. That’s why I’ve been undecided for this long mainly on that point. But ultimately we won’t know until they get in.

    And that destroys all of this “you have to vote for Hillary Clinton because she’s a woman and you’re a feminist” nonsense.

    Please don’t put me in that category because I wholeheartedly agree on that point. But at the same time the sexist stereotypes are so embedded in our culture that they pop up everywhere. You don’t have to vote for Hillary to acknowledge there is some sexist shit flying around her. Melissa at Shakes has done some great posting on that and it’s been documented here as well. I have to admit that sometimes I want to vote for her just as a big fat fuck you to the garbage I’ve seen, but I think the “if you don’t vote for her, you’re out of the club” stance is just ridiculous.

  49. And If Obama or Clinton get into power I will celebrate the accomplishment.

    Oh sure, I’ll celebrate the accomplishment. I just don’t think the accomplishment is a particularly good reason to vote for someone. In fact, I don’t even necessarily think that having one woman president or one black president is going to “open the way” for anyone else. Only a lot of much more holistic change will do that. Do you think Pakistan is far more likely to have another female PM after Bhutto as opposed to before Bhutto? I’m not sure. I have friends from the region who don’t think so.

    And to some degree, the fact that they’re viable candidates, and one of them will be running directly for president, already says something about how far we’ve come in terms of access. But still… what does access to the TOP of the pyramid do for anyone at the bottom of the pyramid? Other than let little kids dream like every little kid should be able to?

    Please don’t put me in that category because I wholeheartedly agree on that point.

    That’s the point of view I was originally making all of these arguments against, is why I mentioned that. I also think that a whole lot of feminists in the blogosphere have been doing an excellent job at noting and airing (and, as zuzu says, hopefully “disinfecting with all the sunlight”) all of the unbelievable sexist bullcrap flying around Clinton. In fact, I feel like I’ve seen less analysis, which is also badly needed, about the politics of racism and fear of being called racist and calling Obama a “multicultural man.” People have taken note, but it’s less in-depth. And in any case, the latest round of crap that incensed me was about this “all feminists must vote Clinton” crap, so that ended up as my subject.

  50. “The depth of our floor is far more important to me than the height of our ceiling.”

    As many women and POC who’ve fought to get from floor to ceiling understand, the depth of the floor is inversely proportional to the height of the ceiling.

  51. But still… what does access to the TOP of the pyramid do for anyone at the bottom of the pyramid?

    Maybe remove the argument that you can’t ever be at the top of whatever pyramid you’re on. Because nobody ever questions white men’s ability to rise to the top of whatever job, trade, profession, etc., simply on the basis of their being white men (class is another story).

    There are lots of pyramids, after all. Maybe it’s just heartening to women to see that the top of the very highest pyramid isn’t entirely closed off on the basis of sex; maybe it helps people see that if a woman can become President, she can also become plant manager, or shop steward, or just even get into the union in the first place.

    This is when I’d dearly love to hear from La Lubu.

  52. Hillary won the votes of everyone making under $50,000 and Obama won the votes of everyone making over $100,000 according to CNN. They said exit polls showed class was more important than either race or gender. And then they said that the media coverage was determined by people making over 50,000. They said that is why Obama’s victory speech emphasized he organized the poor in Chicago for his first year out of law school. I think that says it all in terms of my support for Clinton. And that is what I remember about her husbands time in office also – times were not as bad for everyone – the oil companies were not making record profits while the rest of us froze in cold houses without money to fill the gas tank.

    I cannot wait for Clinton’s green energy weatherization job training programs which I have wanted for so long. And her forgiveness of student loans for service in non-profits.

  53. As many women and POC who’ve fought to get from floor to ceiling understand, the depth of the floor is inversely proportional to the height of the ceiling.

    I disagree. This is not an entirely relative situation. There are absolute measures of quality of life, of access to health care, of whether you are guaranteed certain rights, of how much influence you have over your surroundings, over the laws that govern you, all of that. It’s not all about “how far are you from the top,” even though Americans tend to think that way — for instance, the repeated finding that people in this country would rather win $100 when the runner up gets $80 instead getting $150 as the runer up when the winner gets $1000. It’s competitive rather than logical.

    Think about it this way: the salary of a CEO doesn’t have any necessary link to how much the janitors are paid. But not all companies HAVE a CEO who’s in charge. Some organizations are much more flat; the power is distributed. What if our society was more like that? If that’s a desirable goal, then it’s both about lowering the ceiling for everyone AND raising the floor for everyone. Power is not an infinite resource; when you have it, someone else doesn’t. For a more equal society, more people in power have to lose it, more people without have to gain it. Just shuffling things around at the top between senators doesn’t do much for anyone else, regardless of how they’re connected along race or gender lines, unless the people at the top actually are working for greater equity.

    Maybe remove the argument that you can’t ever be at the top of whatever pyramid you’re on.

    That’s what I think of as the “so little kids can dream, like they ought to be able to” argument, which like I’ve said in previous posts, I believe is the only good one.

    And if poor folks are voting for Clinton, maybe that says something.

    However I certainly make under $50k and I didn’t vote for her. 😉

  54. And that is what I remember about her husbands time in office also – times were not as bad for everyone

    Unless you were a POC (or, all-too-often more specifically a WOC) getting fucked over by welfare reform, of course.

  55. This is when I’d dearly love to hear from La Lubu.

    You called?

    My take on the “glass ceiling” is somewhat jaundiced, having been in the building trades for twenty years. See, if you look at statistics on womens’ participation in the building trades, a rosier picture is painted than what is our lived experience as women in the building trades. First of all, the 5% participation rate that is usually quoted is misleading. That number includes all laborers, not just skilled labor. It’s an artifically inflated number that is boosted by the numbers of women you see as Laborers (as in Laborers’ union)—those are the women you’ll see by the side of the road directing traffic. Most of those women don’t get the chance to work all year round. They’re required on construction projects that have federal money in them, and road projects are pretty damn visible—they tend to have a greater compliance with that law than other projects because of that visibility. It probably is also worth mention that in the popular imagination, there are certain “quotas” to be met on nonfederal projects as well. That isn’t true. Just because you’re a woman, doesn’t mean they have to hire you. Or keep you. And frankly, there is little to no enforcement of the laws that do exist. I could easily use up major portions of Feministe bandwidth giving specific examples for myself and other women in my Local, but if you’re really interested, just head down to the library and check out “We’ll Call You If We Need You”, by Susan Eisenberg. She is an IBEW sister who wrote a book about it. She no longer works with the tools—I think she’s in academia now (she’s published several books of poetry). For the trades’ from a black woman’s perspective, I highly recommend “Manhandled” by Victoria King (she no longer works with the tools either; she’s an attorney).

    Oh, and for the record, women constitute about 1% of union electricians. (amongst nonunion electricians, it’s much, much lower. a number that could be accurately rounded to “zero”)

    At the same time, there are ways and means for fighting the sexism in that field that aren’t open to women in Cubicle City. And within the job culture, strength—be it physical, verbal, or emotional—is valued, even in women. It doesn’t harm me on the job to speak out and be aggressive the way it would for my comadres in the traditional office sphere. I made a post a long time ago on my blog “Gendered Bodies, Gendered Minds” that kinda talked about it.

    Fact is, you have to look at this as a struggle that will take generations. My models as a tradeswoman were the black men in my Local—and later, when I found them, white male allies. I’ve been more-or-less that “groundbreaker” in my Local, for what it’s worth, but there are serious limitations on what effects simply breaking ground can bring. As I’ve said, it takes generations. My Local is a different place now than it was twenty years ago. However, from my perspective, other neighboring Locals (we call the “sister” Locals in the trades) are much better places for women—I chalk that up to the (previously) strong manufacturing presence in those Locals’ anchor cities—the workforce culture is different in places where men and women worked side by side in the factories (and where children grew up with that norm). My area is more highly gender-segregated, and that has an impact on the trades, too.

    Anyway, I pulled the lever for Obama yesterday (big surprise, right? Being from Illinois and all? Freezing my ass off in downtown Springfield for the announcement of his candidacy? The fact that he took the time to shake my mother’s hand at a political rally, even though she’s just a broke-ass retiree with zip, zero and zilch in the way of political pull?). I’m with Ellen Bravo (go check out her number on the Huffington Post). Obama is the son of a single mother. He worked in community organizing. I’m pretty damn sure that the thought occurs to him that there are people waking up today who wonder if this is going to be the day they get the pink slip. That there are people who cycle their utility bills, paying gas one month and electric the next, with the hope it’ll be enough to keep the damn things on.

    I’m not confidant that thought occurs to Hillary. And fuck, welfare deform (P.S., fuck you Virginia Ray, you’re full of shit. Curb your conservative talking points and check the statistics—women in fact weren’t having children to get more money. I also like your dog whistle about the environment—why didn’t you just come straight out and say what was really on your mind—or are you too cowardly to bluntly say that women struggling to make ends meet should be sterilized?). Nope, can’t get behind Hillary.

    And zuzu—I read the Krugman article, thanks. I’d really like to see some hard numbers though, some real-world examples. See, a line Krugman had bothered me—about the people who qualified for low-income healthcare, but weren’t signed up “for whatever reason”. I can certainly give my reason. A couple of years ago I tried to get my daughter signed up for KidCare, but was unable to. My COBRA plan, on my ERISA insurance was an all-or-nothing plan (just about all union-sponsored plans are. One fee covers everyone. If you’re single, it covers you. If you have a family of thirteen, it covers all of them.). I provided the good folks at Healthcare and Family Services (then, Public Aid) copies of the plan, copies of my COBRA paperwork, a letter from the plan administrator detailing that there wasn’t a separate fee structure for families, you name it. The guidelines of KidCare should have provided me with a partial subsidy for my daughter, to help me make COBRA payments (as she was a qualifying child). But because of red tape, that didn’t get done. I was rejected for “refusal to comply with the required paperwork” or some shit like that.

    So, contrary to Krugman’s allusion that people are just ignorant or lazy or what-have-you, I can tell you that some of the people falling through those crack are people with ERISA plans—no one counted on us.

    I’m not sure of the trickle-down a female president would have for working class women. I haven’t seen a whole lot of trickle down for us yet—and we’ve had Senators, Representatives, CEOs, a Supreme Court justice—what we need are policy changes.

    Dammit—I’m gonna be late for work. But thanks for callin’ me out!

  56. Supporting social justice, I noticed that while Obama was a community organizer and civil rights attorney before elective office, Clinton was a corporate lawyer and Wal-Mart director, entirely consistent with her middle-class, white suburban Goldwater Girl upbringing. Clinton cannot shrug off responsibility for Bill’s signing welfare elimination because she put her years as First Lady on her resume. If instead she tried but failed to persuade Bill to veto welfare elimination, her persuasive skills are sadly lacking.

    What bothers me now is her character defects. She did misrepresent and smear Obama’s abortion voting record, and she has yet to correct the misrepresentation. In fact it was parroted by her supporters in this very thread. She has yet to admit her voting for the Iraq war was a mistake — could there be a bigger mistake than that?

  57. Hillary won the votes of everyone making under $50,000 and Obama won the votes of everyone making over $100,000 according to CNN.

    I would be shocked if CNN actually said that Hillary won the votes of “everyone” making less than $50,000 and Obama won the votes of “everyone” making more than $100,000. Because, see, that can’t possibly be true. I make less than $50,000 a year and I voted for Obama. Careful tossing around words like “everyone;” you make yourself sound like an idiot.

    my analysis is a feminist analysis which is different than a woman centered analysis which you are espousing. People often confuse the two.

    You’re right, Virginia, that my feminism is indeed woman-centered. I’m curious who exactly your feminism is centered on, if not women. And while I can understand opposition to an exploitative and humiliating welfare system, what I can’t understand is what you expect individual women to do when you cut off their benefits in the name of a greater social ideal. The greater ideal is fine, but you have to recognize that realistically, cutting off benefits makes women and children go hungry. It means there’s less to go around. It means that life is that much harder.

    What, exactly, should they do while you try out your ideals on them?

  58. “I’m not confidant that thought occurs to Hillary. And fuck, welfare deform (P.S., fuck you Virginia Ray, you’re full of shit. Curb your conservative talking points and check the statistics—women in fact were not having children to get more money. I also like your dog whistle about the environment—why didn’t you just come straight out and say what was really on your mind—or are you too cowardly to bluntly say that women struggling to make ends meet should be sterilized?). Nope, can’t get behind Hillary.”

    Conservative talking points from your ass – I was the first class action plaintiff to get women into the painters union in WI and consistently fought to open up the apprenticeships so that women could have opportunities other than reproduction. I was diverted from that by establishing the first domestic shelter in WI. Screw you and your desire to subsidize baby making – it is a crap dead end for women and as far as i am concerned the people who make babies have to pay for them. That is the only thing that will teach people that resources are limited and we cannot keep reproducing as if the earth can support unlimited reproduction. I don’t think women should produce children they cannot support and there is nothing conservative about this position. It has everything to do with what happens to those children, one of which I am and many of whom I have tried to help. Our prisons and mental institutions are filled with them. Don’t justify your own bad choices by catharting on me. Talk such as you are directing to me – abortion is genocide on black women, – kept a lot of women in poverty following some stupid socialist BS while their lives fell apart in the projects . If you made it out congratulations – plenty of others did not because they bought the same line you are still pushing.

    That said, I was very interested in what you wrote as the dream of women in the trades has never been realized and it is a despicable failure which burns me. There is great money in the trades and the opportunity should be open to women. We all ignore that it is not. The struggle to prevent sexual harassment including criminal rape is done without any help from the legal system by the victims alone, with incredible economic blocks within the legal system, the training is unequal, and most women get so discouraged they drop out. I am going to use your links. I am very interested in this struggle.

    And yes, Hillary has wonderful ideas which will help women far more than 80 dollars for every extra baby, one of which is a jobs program, taking women into the weatherization program, training them to install solar and geo-thermal heating, frame new windows and doors and then moving them out to the trades and their own companies. The CAAP Weatherization programs insulate poor peoples homes but Bush defunded it to the point where all they do now is screw in new light bulbs and replace furnaces. The workers do not install anything – a local company is paid to do it.

    I do not think you’re being honest about your vote for Obama just as you think I secretly want to sterilize women on welfare. I hear women repeating the same old socialist non sense here – it has no relation to actuality but sounds great – that is Obama – he sounds great but i do not hear the details – maybe he IS your ideal – vote for him – as I said, if he wins I will come back here after he has been in office a while to hear how it was worth it to you.

  59. So, contrary to Krugman’s allusion that people are just ignorant or lazy or what-have-you, I can tell you that some of the people falling through those crack are people with ERISA plans—no one counted on us.

    I don’t think that Krugman was implying that people were ignorant or lazy at all, especially if you’re familiar with his columns on SCHIP and other programs. He’s quite aware that people who should be enrolled but aren’t are often shut out by bad information, onerous paperwork, arbitrary decisions or what have you. Which can happen without mandated enrollment.

  60. Jill

    I thought it was shocking also but CNN said it – on a segment with Lou Dobbs who was also shocked and asked the analyst to repeat it which he did – it was a short segment which was not repeated – I think it was CNN because it was one of those three panels they had all night. But i was switching around all night. And you don’t have to warn me about sounding like an idiot – it is very condescending.

    Jill said:

    “You’re right, Virginia, that my feminism is indeed woman-centered. I’m curious who exactly your feminism is centered on, if not women. And while I can understand opposition to an exploitative and humiliating welfare system, what I can’t understand is what you expect individual women to do when you cut off their benefits in the name of a greater social ideal. The greater ideal is fine, but you have to recognize that realistically, cutting off benefits makes women and children go hungry. It means there’s less to go around. It means that life is that much harder.”

    My feminism in about equal rights and equal opportunity and freedom. Thanks for the intelligent question. Life is harder when you cut off benefits. Some states did it better than others. WI was one of the better states although no one whose life was disrupted will say so.

    First, fathers were force to pay child support or goto jail, including the fathers of multiple babies with multiple mothers. If they refused to pay or go to job training, they went to jail on the Huber program which allowed them out only to work. Both parents got birth control and sex education and parenting classes. Women were given two years job training before benefits were cut – this did not include college though some students with good grades were allowed to continue. But college benefits were no longer part of the welfare program. The jobs program was inadequate and cost more than it would have cost to keep them on welfare. The state had to assume child care costs. Some women were given cars and car repairs but all had transportation needs which were met inadequately. The state also had to come to grips with the fact that the minimum wage was inadequate and had to subsidize minimum wage jobs. Ha, it was a good lesson for every one and got people very involved in the real life of the poor. The best job training programs were at the technical colleges which were allowed to go on for three years if necessary. Many women got computer degrees and technical writing degrees. This was one small success. But in general the job training was inadequate to provide employment at more than minimum wage so subsidies had to continue. Therefore they have attempted ever since to do better training. Many of the same problems exist as described above by the woman who said I am on a secret mission to serialize poor women.

    For what I would do see my answer above on the trades. I would bust up the boy’s monopoly on the electrician, carpenter and plumbing trades which they hold by force. God, Jill there are so many things we can do. I want Hillary because she knows. Obama talks about being an organizer but I do not see what change he has actually made happen. I hear Hillary’s programs and I know she has been there. I don’t care what they say about her being on boards Wal-mart, one of those most despised companies of the left has helped so many people I know it is a joke. Why? Because they are flexible – you can leave and come back – move from full to part time bla bla — it is a good entry place – a good fall back place and when you are first starting out – shit happens and you can always go back to wal-mart. Plus I know women who started at the bottom and are actually managing stores, despite the fact that there is a class action against wal mart which is fine with me. I know wal-mart is no different from Sears which I alls sued for sex discrimination. All US retailers stink when it comes to workers in one way or another. It is a struggle.

    I would do it all if I could – the trades – the non-profits – the domestic peace corp but none of it would be welfare. I would have a one payer medical system. I would involved the food industry. None of it would be make-work. All of it would be a career path, just like the rich girls are taught to plan. All of it would lead to those 20 to 60 dollar an hour jobs within 5 to 10 years.

    And it would start in grade schools with after school programs. And children would be able to live in children’s villages if they were not treated with respect at home . You can’t learn when you are some one’s punching bag. Don’t get me started. But for those who like school and get good grades, you bet I would include college. There is so much we could do. But with every child a woman has it is harder for her and the state. It can be done, and should be done but children make it harder for everyone including the children.

  61. Zulu

    I think I am boring to you and probably the other women here so I will go and just let you talk to one another. You were interesting to me. But different classes do not mix well.

  62. i am no economist, but my understanding of the issue is that, ironically enough, healthy people like your friends choosing to opt out of insurance drives costs up for everyone. the logic of a mandate is that it will bring more healthy people into the pool of the insured, lowering costs for all.

    I understand that, but I’m not talking about healthy people choosing not to be insured. One of my friends has asthma, diabetes, a back problem (never officially diagnosed because she can’t afford it) and is bipolar. Her job doesn’t offer insurance and she’d never, ever be able to make enough to afford individual insurance. I have chronic asthma, and before I had a job that had insurance I tried to apply for individual, and all I found would either not cover my asthma (sorry, but that defeats the point) or was half my income. The other person I’m close to that doesn’t have insurance is my mom, who lost her health insurance 10 years ago when she had to switch jobs, and at her age (62 – almost to Medicare) they just don’t offer affordable insurance even if you have no pre-existing conditions, which she does. For many people going without insurance isn’t a choice, it’s that insurance is completely unaffordable. Forcing people who can’t afford insurance to buy it doesn’t help them. I hope she can make it affordable for everyone, but that doubt leaves me against a mandate.

  63. Virginia Ray come back, don’t leave!! You friekin rock!

    What I’d really like to see now, is Obama and his record be scrutinized to the nth degree here on this board now like Hillary’s record has been. Let’s have at it, shall we?? Let’s all begin to scrutinize, judge, analyze motives, etc. his life. Who’d like to start?

  64. Its’ me – you know another big thing I forgot to say when defining my feminism and what it is based on, was the end of sex role stereotyping — that is right on the point of what we were discussing and practically my religion so I don’t know how I forgot it – equal rights, equal opportunity, freedom and the end of sex role stereotyping.

    You know Obama’s past is a mystery because the press is saving that for after he is nominated – we have the outline but all the red flags are excused and ignored or labeled racist so forget looking at that — what women need to do is examine his policy or lack thereof. There is an objective piece in the New Yorker Mag called “The Choice”, by George Packer p28 (Jan 28, 2008) that I think is a good start.

    God, I am going to be so disappointed if she loses and he does not do her loan forgiveness program. I have a personal project to get the student loans of veterinarians (about $140,000 at graduation) forgiven for 10 years of service, 300 hours a year, spay and neutering strays, ferals and poor small animals of every county of every state. I was listening to a Hill speech the other night and she starts talking about student loan forgiveness for community service that sounded very similar. I NEVER hear him talk that way — what IS he going to do?

  65. First off, I want to clarify with zuzu….re-reading my response sounded like I was saying “thanks for nothing”, when what I meant to convey was “thank you”. My local newspaper changed hands lately, and hasn’t been printing Krugman columns (dammit). I know from reading him in the past that he isn’t callous towards folks who fall through the cracks, but it’s an area I’m sensitive to having been in that position too many times myself after the birth of my daughter and all her medical issues. How and where he phrased it that way in that column set off red flags for me, because that is a familiar catchphrase of the right as to why single payer healthcare “won’t work”. He’s usually more careful with his words; that he didn’t clarify that made me go hmmm.

    I’m concerned about affordability of Hillary’s plan, and I searched all through her website looking for specific information so I could gauge how it would impact my healthcare costs. Seeing that it would be based on a percentage of family income—that’s not good enough. What percentage? At what income? Does it take into account family size? Other non-negotiable expenses like pre-existing healthcare treatments and prescription medications? Because if everyone can opt in, that can mean the option to remain in a small ERISA plan like my Local’s wouldn’t exist anymore—there would be a possibility of not having enough people to sustain that plan. Also, how much gatekeeping would exist to keep costs down? My mother is in an HMO, and IMHO, she gets substandard care because of the emphasis to keep costs down. She has a helluva time getting access to doctors when new symptoms crop up. I can’t help but think her prognosis for her cancer would have been much better if she had only been able to get her physician to take her earlier symptoms seriously, and give her the tests necessary to find out what was going on, rather than pooh-pooh it because she was an older, postmenopausal woman. (Don’t. get. me. started!!)

    Also, it might be worth mention that the building trades were one of the obstacles to universal healthcare. “Were” because healthcare costs have risen to the point where the trades have a difficult time getting benefits negotiated—especially in the south where the wages are significantly lower (but the healthcare costs are not). Why the opposition? Because of fears of how the implementation will work out. Our plans are oddballs in the field of healthcare, and those benefits aren’t put on our check—they go into the plan as a per-hour-cost. It’s a concern of the trades that we not end up taking a cut in pay during the implementation. (It’s probably also worth mention that the average rank-and-file member was pro-universal healthcare long before the professional leadership was.)

    Meanwhile, back to Virginia. Since you seem to be so sorely unacquainted with the reality of what causes women to go on welfare, let me inform you (repeat after me): job loss, divorce, and disability. Those are the big three, right there (say it again, Virginia): job loss, divorce, and disability. Not “baby-making”. Women do not have babies to get more welfare benefits. That is a lie. Since you seem to enjoy propagating that lie, I can only conclude that you have contempt for women who’ve fallen on hard times.

    Oh, I know. You’ll say, “But some women have had another baby to get higher benefits! A little birdy told me! And didn’t you hear about the welfare queen from Cabrini Green with 10 checks and a Cadillac?” Look. There are some women who have slept their way to the top. No lie. Some women who have no business having the job they do, but they polished the right man’s knob so…they got the corner office (or something to that effect). Does the existance of such a tiny proportion of women mean that all of us should come under extra scrutiny? Have our educational and professional options curtailed? Because who knows—-maybe we might someday ruin some man’s chances to get a plum job by sleeping with the boss? Hmm? And if not, why the hell would you want that for other women? (Oh, and the welfare queen? She never existed. She was a racist fairy-tale created to score political points.)

    See, earlier you were advocating for forms of help to not touch the hands of women. That food could be provided at school, etc. That women cannot be trusted to provide for their children. Funny, but you sure the hell don’t hear anyone advocating for the same to be done with Social Security survivor’s benefits. Or veteran’s death benefits. Aren’t you worried that women are going to spend their children’s survivor’s benefit checks on booze, dope, gambling, and a never-ending revolving door of no-count trifling boyfriends? No? Why not? Oh yeah, only poor women can’t be trusted. A woman’s moral agency is directly connected to her income level. Gotcha.

    Also, we don’t need a public policy to discourage child-bearing. All we need is to provide access to affordable birth control, and voila! women choose to limit their family size themselves, without shaming or coercion. All of us? No, just 97% of us. In case you haven’t been checking the stats (you sure haven’t for welfare), family size has been consistently going down. Why? Because women want it to. Seriously. Men tend to want more children than women do. The fact that fewer children are being born is a good indication of what will happen when women have the agency and ability to limit how many children they have.

    Virginia, would it be overkill for me to mention how hilarious it is that you extol the virtues of Wal-mart, the company with the nationwide corporate policy of paying low wages and telling their employees to apply for food stamps? Bah.

    Ho-kay, done with Virginia. Back to the glass ceiling. I sure hope I didn’t leave the impression that the building trades are hopelessly sexist. Sexist? Yes, just like the rest of this society. But not hopeless. The main difference between the trades and other traditionally male-dominated fields is the lack of a critical mass of women to integrate them. Critical mass matters. Critical mass changes things. Entering the electrical apprenticeship was hands-down the smartest thing I ever did in my life. Period. The smartest. It wasn’t an easy path, but that wasn’t a path I was gonna have, anyway—the easy one. (“If it was easy, it’d be someone else’s life”) I have never regretted it. I still believe it is a good path for women to take. The lack of critical mass has two main components—-a dearth of women who apply for apprenticeship, and recalcitrant employers who still do not provide equal opportunity. Women have a harder time getting promoted and retained—and critical mass will help. Getting the critical mass means more and better enforcement by the EEOC, and stiffer penalties for those recalcitrant employers. It also means increasing the awareness among women that apprenticeships are available to them. It means combating sexist assumptions about women’s abilities at an early age. Tactics for increasing critical mass could easily be its own post; I recommend reading Ellen Bravo’s “Taking on the Big Boys” (and 9to5 is a great organization!).

  66. (I can’t help it. This was just too fucking much.)

    You know Obama’s past is a mystery because the press is saving that for after he is nominated – we have the outline but all the red flags are excused and ignored or labeled racist so forget looking at that

    What mystery would that be, Virginia? Go on. Tell us. Tell us what “the press is saving”. What “outline”? What “red flags”? Too many years with Hilti hammer drills have left me unable to decipher dogwhistles.

  67. First, fathers were force to pay child support or goto jail, including the fathers of multiple babies with multiple mothers. If they refused to pay or go to job training, they went to jail on the Huber program which allowed them out only to work. Both parents got birth control and sex education and parenting classes.

    When, exactly, were women finding time to go to these classes, between the required 40-hour work week (without child care provisions) that welfare reform required?

    And what about immigrant women? Were they given birth control? Because they were certainly cut off from health care under that legislation, which was fiercely anti-immigrant.

    Women were given two years job training before benefits were cut – this did not include college though some students with good grades were allowed to continue. But college benefits were no longer part of the welfare program. The jobs program was inadequate and cost more than it would have cost to keep them on welfare.

    So… it’s ok that the job training didn’t include college? What happened to hoping that women are actually able to move up?

    The state had to assume child care costs.

    Perhaps your state chose to assume some child care costs, but it certainly didn’t have to under the federal legislation.

    Some women were given cars and car repairs but all had transportation needs which were met inadequately. The state also had to come to grips with the fact that the minimum wage was inadequate and had to subsidize minimum wage jobs. Ha, it was a good lesson for every one and got people very involved in the real life of the poor. The best job training programs were at the technical colleges which were allowed to go on for three years if necessary. Many women got computer degrees and technical writing degrees. This was one small success. But in general the job training was inadequate to provide employment at more than minimum wage so subsidies had to continue. Therefore they have attempted ever since to do better training. Many of the same problems exist as described above by the woman who said I am on a secret mission to serialize poor women.

    So… welfare reform wasn’t a success, or it was? Because from your description, it sounds like it didn’t do a whole lot of good on the promoting feminism bit.

  68. you people yes i said it and i mean it – you people only hear what you want to hear – I am talking about a government program which ties benefits to reproduction and you come off telling me oh what the hell you are just fucking queens who want to misunderstand so you can feel superior

    Hillary reformed welfare because it tied benefits to reproduction -and she was right to do so – it had nothing to do with WHY women go on welfare – it has to do with how you get more money when you are on welfare and what “help” the system provided – if your tiny minds cannot get the concept of institutional change that is your lie not mine

  69. Hillary reformed welfare because it tied benefits to reproduction -and she was right to do so – it had nothing to do with WHY women go on welfare – it has to do with how you get more money when you are on welfare and what “help” the system provided – if your tiny minds cannot get the concept of institutional change that is your lie not mine

    But, see, that’s not true at all. Because, first, Hillary didn’t reform it; she just supported Bill’s policy. And even if that were true, the policy they pushed through didn’t remove the tie between benefits and children. What it did was place a five-year lifetime cap on welfare benefits; require legal immigrants to be in the country for many years and jump through a series of hoops before they could access basic health care; up the working requirement without adding any government-aided childcare; and it allowed states to determine for themselves what kinds of welfare plans the implemented, meaning that women in red states and states hostile to immigrants tended to suffer.

    As far as I can tell, there was absolutely nothing in the bill about cutting the tie between reproduction and welfare. So we aren’t deliberately misunderstanding, nor are we small-minded. You haven’t made your case that the federal act did any good — even in achieving the goals that you promote.

  70. Hillary reformed welfare because

    Lemme fix that for ya: Bill deformed welfare because throwing women on welfare under the bus scored him political points with white conservatives, including Republicans. There. All fixed.

    The best preventative measure against long-term poverty is…..(drumroll please)….a college degree. Which is exactly what workfare took away, the educational stipend that provided the best chance for a woman to get off and stay off of welfare. If you are seriously interested in a better life for women and their families, you will support grants for higher education. Period. Full four-year grants, that have a bachelor’s degree at the end of them. Associates degrees don’t do the trick.

    Define “fucking queens”. Does that mean we are queens of fucking? In what sense? That we really enjoy it? Are really, truly good at it? Both? That we are regal in our ability to fuck? That people adore, revere, and honor our supreme level of fucking? Or that we exert our regalness fucking everywhere, that we literally drip with fucking queenitude? Enquiring minds want to know.

  71. Oh, and I should throw in here that Bill didn’t even really reform it himself; he simply accepted the proposal of a staunch conservative Congressman. This was a right-wing, misogynist, anti-immigrant move from its conception.

  72. what the hell you are just fucking queens who want to misunderstand so you can feel superior

    Ha, I almost missed that the first time around. “Fucking queens”? Stay classy, Virginia.

  73. The hostile talk, biting comments and in your face attitude is not the way to go. You all are very passionate on your points of view obviously, but sheesh, we’re never going to get anywhere like this. I’m learning so much from all of you, as I’m sure most people viewing and not participating are, but we’ve got to come at this with a little more civility. It sort of appears like everyone just wants to prove they’re right instead of how to move forward. It’s a complex issue with lots of view points, but let’s try to see the common ground and respect what each other brings to the table. I know, I know, this really sounds like “let’s all just love each other talk”, but the nastiness keeps people out of the conversation.

  74. I am sorry for my nastiness but no one even read what I said I would do – they just made their attack points – I SAID I would do college based on grades available to both childless and child full women alike, which answers most of the criticism of people who, not having babies, could not get the college benefit. And resented that despite their grades they had to reproduce to go to college.

    But you did not read what i want (and try to work for) you just criticized what I said WI did. WI is still evolving based on evaluations and community political pressure. The imperative is to be part of that pressure or shut up.

    You know, if it is true that in your states, women did not get child care then where were you? Privileged women have to change that – you don’t just say benefits based on reproduction are better — you use the momentum of inevitable social change to get what you can prove is needed – that is called feminist organizing as opposed to leftist organizing which sought to keep benefits tied to reproduction.

    That is what was done in WI – IMPERFECTLY – of course – struggle never ends but this current system is better than a benefit system where increases came only when you had another baby. We are still suffering the effects of that system.

    What do we need to do to improve the current laws? – insist on progressive job training – bust open those electrician, carpenter and plumbing jobs by demanding that workforce development make APPRENTICESHIP part of the training programs.

    BTW, those of you who are lawyers have a duty to find out how to do this – maybe suing workforce development based on sex discrimination in employment training or failure to implement their mandate or whatever ——find something – then sue the unions and companies for any subsequent failures.

    That other woman is correct in saying women have to come into the trades programs and companies in groups. I think they need their own union for support.

    Also we have to make CLASS the substitute priority in affirmative action programs – POOR Blacks, POOR women and AA in proportion to your family’s income as a priority — AA, which I fiercely support so don’t start, has to be rethought to put poor people first while still protecting minority rights.

    No program is a sacred cow – everything evolves – keep thinking forward always based on what you want for your own life — what would you need if you did not have money to achieve your career goal or if you were being beaten so you could not learn and had PTSD from the violence – what would you need? Those are the assistance programs i want to see implemented.

    Hillary is articulating exactly the programs I want to see implemented She challenge Obama to a series of five debate and he refused every one of them. I think both the Obama and Hill’s supporters should make an issue out of this. Debates are the bare minimum we should demand as part of electoral reform.

    The Hill’s staff is giving up their paychecks — they say the “Little” people are contributing to Obama war chest but i bet it is more like the Oprah’s — does anyone know where the disclosure of the names and amounts of funders can be located – do those forms say how the funders are registered dem, repub or independent?

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