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Erica Jong on Circumcision: A Case Study in Racism and Body-Shame

circumcision

Is Erica Jong insane?

It appears to be quite possible.

I’m all for greater discussion about male circumcision. Personally, I find circumcision seriously troubling. I wouldn’t do it to my kid. If you want to be circumcised, more power to you, but I think parents have an obligation to allow their children to make decisions about permanent body modifications for themselves, once they’re old enough to understand all the of the issues involved. That said, I don’t blame individual parents who have made the decision to circumcise their children – at least for my generation in the United States, circumcision was billed by the medical establishment as “clean,” as “healthy,” and as “normal.” I don’t have stats on this, but I would guess that the majority of boys born in the 1980s in the United States are circumcised. I don’t think that those boys have parents who are cruel or stupid. I don’t think that these boys are mutilated; I don’t think there’s anything wrong with them or their bodies. I think that religious and cultural reasons behind circumcision are compelling, and I believe that most parents have the best interests of their children in mind. But I do think that circumcising children without that child’s consent (and at an age where the child is totally unable to give consent) is wrong.

But that isn’t really what Jong is talking about. Instead, she writes a bizarre screed about how Jewish men have issues with women, and manages to not only insult Jews and men in general, but Asian, Asian-American, black, African-American and Eastern European women in one fell swoop.

Ever wonder why Jewish boys are so fucked up about sex? Ever wonder why they fall for mile-high models from Slovenia who wear those big cold crosses? Ever wonder why they like Chinese girls, Chinese-American girls, Blonde shiksa cheerleaders from Kansas? Or those cool black models who dance like Beyonce?


…because a lot of them are straight men, and straight men are generally attracted to attractive women – even if those women aren’t white?

Removing a piece of one’s genitals may indeed make them fucked up about sex. (Although I would argue that a society which constructs certain types of surgically altered genitals as the only “clean” or aesthetically acceptable genitalia has bigger sexual issues to portend with). What’s odd is suggesting that attraction to Asian or black women is evidence that one is “fucked up about sex.”

Now, one is certainly fucked up about sex (and about race and about women in general) if one wants to date black women because they’re so sexual, or if one wants to date Asian women because they’re so submissive and exotic. There are certainly lots of dudes out there who are like that. You probably know the type – they frequent “Men’s Rights” boards, where they bitch about how American women are too uppity and shallow and insist that Asian women are superior because they’re true ladies and delicate lotus-flowers, and Eastern European women are beautiful and oh-so-grateful for attention from American men.

But, again, that’s not what Jong is criticizing; she apparently takes issue solely with Jewish men marrying outside of the tribe:

The mothers usually run in the other room crying. But they get blamed for it anyway. And Jewish women bear the brunt ever after. Either they marry you and run around with Diana Ross or Beyonce or Naomi Campbell — or they marry Sandra Oh or Lisa Liu or Yoko Ono and she converts.

They fuck over-sexed black women but marry submissive Asian ones – congratulations, Erica, for racializing the virgin-whore dichotomy.

Plus, you know, Jewish women aren’t all sitting around waiting for Jewish men to get over their circumcisions and marry them.

And then it gets even stranger when she suggestions that circumcision is bad because neo-Nazis will be able to tell you’re Jewish when they see you pee:

It killed me to see my grandsons marked like this so future Nazis can identify them. What is wrong with the chosen people? Chosen for pain? All the psychological troubles of Jewish men — from Sigmund Freud to Lenny Bernstein to Philip Roth — must stem from this dubious ritual. I want to tell my adorable grandson, Max, who is four: Just make sure you never make pee pee in front of a skinhead. But he doesn’t know what a skinhead is.

Chances are, if the skinheads are 20-something white Americans, they’re circumcised too. And “Skinheads might realize you’re Jewish” is not a very good argument against a particular behavior or choice.

Yes, I get that Jong is trying to be funny, and the neuroticism of Jewish people is always a good fall-back for a laugh (Over-bearing Jewish mothers! Spoiled-rotten JAP-y girls! Sexually stunted shiksa-chasing Jewish men!). But, while a certain amount of self-conscious cultural humor can work, Jong doesn’t carry it off here – perhaps because nothing in her column is self-conscious. She depends on misogynist and racist stereotypes to prop up other racist and sexist stereotypes, and doesn’t really seem to have a bigger point.

She also can’t discuss male circumcision without comparing it to female circumcision:

You think female circumcision is bad? (It’s hideous, health destroying and horrible — and inflicted on women by other women). But at least women have other things to think about than their pussies — like children, like politics, like writing. At least women don’t focus nonstop on their vaginas (or as Oprah says, their vajayjays). Men think about their pricks for the rest of their lives. Don’t get me wrong, they think about them whether or not they’re circumcised. But circumcision bumps it up to a whole other level.

I think I’ve made my feelings on male circumcision relatively clear. But you are out of your damn mind if you think that male circumcision is anything like most forms of female circumcision. The majority of female circumcisions involve removing part or all of the clitoris, which is simply not analogous to the removal of foreskin; a more appropriate comparison would be between removing the clitoris and snipping off the head of your dick. Female circumcision isn’t less bad because women don’t think about their vulvas (trust me, we do – and were you to suggest removing a part of mine, I’d be pretty damned opposed to it, despite my interests in children, writing and politics). It’s perfectly possible to question the cultural practice of male circumcision without playing the “what’s-worse” game with female circumcision.

I’d also like to think it’s possible to question male circumcision without shaming men. Conversations around circumcision in popular culture too often involve privileging circumcised men’s bodies over others; the first example I can think of is the Sex & the City episode where one of the ladies sleeps with an uncircumcised man, and there’s a collective freak-out over brunch wherein the conversation revolves around how it’s weird and gross and looks like a shar-pei. Watching that was, for me, pretty disturbing – and I couldn’t help but think about how I’d feel if I were an uncircumcised dude who saw that episode. Uncircumcised men are pretty common; they aren’t freaks, they aren’t unattractive, and there’s nothing dirty or gross or aesthetically displeasing about uncircumcised penises. I really, really dislike the narrative that says only circumcised penises are clean and normal, and all others are deviant.

So I also really dislike it when I read articles that talk about circumcision in terms of deviance. While she doesn’t attack the cleanliness or visual appeal of circumcision, she does flat-out say that circumcision makes you sexually fucked-up. And that’s flat-out untrue. I oppose circumcision as a cultural practice; I think it’s unnecessary, and, despite some asserted health benefits (lower risk of HIV transmission, for example), not a procedure that should be performed without the man’s full consent. For me, it’s a basic bodily autonomy issue: Foreskin may arguably not be a huge deal, but I think it’s simply wrong to remove a part of a person’s genitals without their consent. However, I don’t think circumcised men are horribly “mutilated.” I don’t think that there’s anything weird or unattractive about it. I don’t think that they’re all psychologically scarred. And I think it’s shitty to suggest otherwise.

We spend a lot of time on feminist blogs discussing the myriad ways women’s bodies are culturally negotiated. We spend a lot of time criticizing beauty standards and examining how public comments about and displays of women’s bodies are used as tools to keep us in line. We often mention that men just don’t have to deal with a lot of this bullshit.

That’s all true, and we should keep doing what we’re doing. But equal-opportunity body-shame is not feminist (and to be clear, I’m not suggesting that feminists want to bring men down; most of us don’t). And the shaming and altering of men’s bodies for social, cultural and beauty-related reasons are absolutely feminist issues.


76 thoughts on Erica Jong on Circumcision: A Case Study in Racism and Body-Shame

  1. Why is it that all the women writers are freaking out over sex? Jong, in her younger, hotter days, seemed to enjoy all the attention she got from men. Did it end? Is she now the granny that sour grapes the 15-35 age group getting some?

  2. Doubt it, since plenty of older women writers are still getting some. If not insane, then I’m guessing she’s trying the “hey! let’s get attention by spewing something ‘politically incorrect’!” route.

    And, uh, what’s wrong with marrying an Asian or African-American woman who then converts? Did Jong miss the memo about Judaism not being a fucking genetic category?

  3. THANK YOU for clarifying that female circumcision is NOTHING to compare to male circumcision…it shouldn’t even be called that. Female circumcision is an AMPUTATION!

    MOST males born in the 50’s and 60’s are circumcised…it was regular procedure as far as I know.
    I have had only a dozen lovers and only one was non-circumcised.

    When my dad was in the Navy in WWII, he had to have special permission to NOT be circumcised and most old combat vets were upon military entry if they were not before…’don’t know when or if that has changed.

  4. I do have anecdotal evidence to back up her claim.

    Women I have slept with/been attracted to:

    Black women? Check.
    Chinese/Chinese-American women? Big check.
    Tall eastern European models? Oh sure. Check.
    Blonde cheerleaders from Kansas? A bit country for my tastes usually, but sure. Check.

    So I guess I’m fucked up about sex.

    Of course, this list isn’t all inclusive, and I’m not Jewish, so I might mess up her scientific data set.

  5. What the hell is she talking about? Most of her piece is written as she has no idea that 80% of ALL men in the United States are circumcised, and the most common reason given for circumcising newborns these day is “so that he looks like his father” — 91% of guys born in the 70s are circumcised, and that’s a lot of the folks having kids today. It’s become totally traditional and ultra-mainstream, no longer the physical thing that sets Jews apart and somehow makes them more fucked up than everyone else — way to play into about a hundred different stereotypes. I can’t even get started on the absurd comparison to FGM. I would have been much more interested in an essay, even a totally crackpot one, on how the extremely high rate of circumcision in the US affects the male psyche here, even if it was based on nothing but conjecture. Conjecture would be better than completely incorrect assumptions about who’s circumcised, combined with a bunch of racist idiocy and stereotypes.

  6. I hate when the goyim refer to the Jewish god as “Jawheh” or “Yaweh”.

    I have never heard anyone say that outside of a text book.

  7. hooooooly crap. She is, indeed, bats*** insane.

    I don’t even know what to say in response. Like, yeah, sure I’ll buy that there are Jewish men who are effed up about sex; there are loads of other men who are also effed up about sex, though, and I tend to think that’s a function of living under the patriarchy (which, as we know, hurts men, too) in a country with severely confused ideas about sexuality and sexual identity.

    Not of circumcision, so we’re perfectly clear.

  8. And, uh, what’s wrong with marrying an Asian or African-American woman who then converts? Did Jong miss the memo about Judaism not being a fucking genetic category?

    And, um, some African-American and Asian men and women are Jewish, either by birth or conversion, independently of having met a Jewish mate. Does Ms. Jong think the only Jews around are white, except those who have converted to marry a Jew?

  9. I’ve never noticed that Jewish guys are notably fucked up about sex. But then, I grew up Catholic.

    Now, a woman who wrote a whole book about pursuing the zipless fuck with a guy with crusty underwear…

  10. so… girl gossip here
    this biggest guy i ever slept with was uncircumcised. he claimed (bullshit, yes, but he DID claim) that the reason he was so big was BECAUSE he wasn’t circumcised.

    actually, in almost everyway he was a great guy. but, sadly, Garth Brooks broke us up. i HATE country music.

    every other guy i’ve slept with was circumcised. when my sister had her son – against the advice of EVERYone, from the OB/Gyn to myself – she had him circumcised “so no one would make fun of him” and because she “didn’t want to have to pull on his ‘wee-wee’ to clean it”

    sigh

  11. A satire of what, exactly? Looking at comments and other linkbacks, exactly zero people seem to have gotten this joke. And yeah it’s hilarious when you make a really inscrutable satire that’s also wildly racist in seventeen different ways. But I’m not buying that it’s satirical… whose vices or shortcomings are being made fun of here, exactly? What’s she disapproving of? Nutcases who think only Jewish men are circumcised and believe it causes sexual neuroses and has something to do with interracial relationships? Yeah, that’s a big obvious target for satire, that is.

  12. So what about us poor gentile schmendrik men who were circumcised (as was customary in the US in the 1960s and 70s) but who are often attracted immensely to Jewish women (and Asian women, and African women, etc., not that these categories are mutually exclusive…)?

  13. I’m also confused by Jong’s apparent conviction that only Jewish boys are circumcised. I haven’t been with a huge number of guys, but all of them were circumcised except one, and he wasn’t because his mother was Japanese and refused to have it done.

    If it’s a satire, what is she satirizing? Self-absorbed Jewish women who think that the entire world revolves around their neuroses?

  14. and erica jong is jewish.

    Anyone can be complicit in their own oppression. And, as Jill points out, while self-conscious cultural humor can be funny, Jong doesn’t pull it off. All her jokes are tired stereotypes.

  15. The image you have up there – my doctor used to have a print of it up in her office. Apparently it was making men uncomfortable so she had to take it down.

  16. She should come to Europe if male circumcision bothers her so much. In my life I’ve only ever met one European-born man who was circumcised. And I’ve never actually seen a circumcised penis. So I supposed that must mean none of the males of European stock are fucked up about sex…

    Wait a second…

    Being attracted to to attractive people isn’t really to be considered fucked up. Now if she could cite something to show whether being circumcised or not has any effect on how likely a man is to become a rapist, then we might actually have something on he topic of “being fucked up about sex”, but simple attraction?

    Really, I feel stupider for reading it.

  17. Also – I know we’re all on board with the FGM not being anywhere near in the same category as male infant circumcision – but can I just point out that most dudes are circumcised around birth?

    I’m not a guy, so I don’t know what kind of affect that has on you – but I remember NOTHING about my hernia surgery from when I was two weeks old. I’m pretty sure I would remember someone taking a knife to my genitals at age 11 or 12, which is when most FGM happens.

  18. or they marry Sandra Oh or Lisa Liu or Yoko Ono and she converts.

    I’m going to have to step up for Sandra Oh here. I don’t know much about her but I doubt she will ever be anyone’s submissive anything. And I think if she converted to Jewdism it wouldn’t be for a man.

    And anyway… do you have to be a circumcised male to find those women attractive? Cause I am a lesbian and all my parts are in tact, and dude… Sandra Oh is hot. So is Beyonce!

    Man, stuff like this upsets my brain. *sighs*

  19. God, how embarrassing. It makes me want to look away from the crazy woman doing inappropriate things in public.

  20. I’ve been with several men who had uncircumcised penises, and it wasn’t all that different from a circumcised penis. There was no freak-out. And most girls I know wouldn’t freak-out, either. I actually prefer it, but it’s pretty rare to find. He He, hard.

  21. I really dislike reading pointed internal ethnic critiques. When Jews take up really controversial issues with other Jews about Jewish culture, just reading it feels intrusive. To the extent it’s about Judaism, as s gentile, it’s none of my business, and I wonder why she’s doing it here where the goyim can see it (though I realize it’s not like there’s any perfect forum that prevents these critiques from leaking out).

    To the extent it’s about circumcision, it’s transparently stupid. People are fucked up about sex because of patriarchy. We’re fucked up about sex because of a bunch of cultural rules and tropes that make us all fucked up about sex. That’s not a result of circumcision, nor particular to Jews.

    There’s a lot to criticize about circumcision: mostly that it makes a permanent change to the feel and function of the penis before a boy can decide for himself. I’m circumcised, my sons are not, for that reason. But to rely on some pseudoscientific assumption about long-term psychological effects? Please.

  22. maybe it is just because i didn’t read the whole column together but i didn’t get that it was a satire or supposed to be self-aware, internal humor…but humor is pretty subjective, so i guess it might have been funny to some people…

    i know that i am going to get slammed for this, and i am not necessarily pro-circumcision, however i think it is important to point out that the medical benefits of circumcision in terms of infection are not just assertions- they are backed by some serious research…the HIV study had to be stopped because it was no longer ethical to have a control group- circumcision had drastically reduced the risk of HIV infection. Now every study has to be taken with a grain of salt, and of course there are many other methods of preventing HIV transmission that don’t involve permanent body modification (I am pretty sure all the men in the study were adults going under the procedure, not children whose parents consented for them) but i think it is important not to gloss that over.

  23. When Jews take up really controversial issues with other Jews about Jewish culture, just reading it feels intrusive. To the extent it’s about Judaism, as s gentile, it’s none of my business, and I wonder why she’s doing it here where the goyim can see it (though I realize it’s not like there’s any perfect forum that prevents these critiques from leaking out).

    IIRC, the phrase you’re looking for is a shanda fur die goyim.

  24. Actually, that style of writing was very big during the 70s–it’s very second-wave: Insult as many men as you can, in one fell swoop. I used to write like that myself, for newspapers such as Majority Report, Womansong and Plexus. Frankly, I had forgotten what that deliberately-male-baiting writing sounded like. It was designed to provoke a reaction, since the whole thing then was how the mainstream media was ignoring the women’s movement. Nothing pissed off men more than a piece like this… Jill Johnston, Erica Jong and (of course) Andrea Dworkin specialized in these screeds, and many were published by Ms. magazine. I can still remember Jill Johnston’s nasty attack on gay men, which was similar to this piece. (Since she was the author of Lesbian Nation, you couldn’t exactly accuse her of homophobia!)

    If you read FEAR OF FLYING, Jong was fierce in attacking her Chinese husband (I see she still hasn’t recovered, several husbands later!) and was often pretty racist in doing so. She seemed to believe (like Johnston), she had a personal pass to do so, since she was married to him.

    In HOW TO SAVE YOUR OWN LIFE, she started riffing on the Jewish thing you see here. In all fairness, I think it was Lenny Bruce who started the whole “Jewish-men-are-fucked-up-by-circumcision” routine, mostly to excuse his own legendary, fucked-up behavior.

    But you know–he was a lot funnier.

  25. And I forgot to ask (sorry)–why is Erica Jong still writing like she is doing a Ms. magazine piece in the 70s?

    That’s just so weird. I’m sure her clothes and house are different. Hasn’t she updated her writing?

  26. Very strange – that’s all i can say. I was raised Roman Catholic (and I say unto you nothing will fuck your head more up about sex as being raised Roman Catholic in an Irish American House Hold – some may do as good a job but nothing will screw your mind up more that that) And I’m am circumsised – i was born in the 50’s – and it was done to everybody. I find attactive women attractive – reguardless of race color or creed – my personal fuck up is that i feel ashamed of that (my beastal lust and all that) but that has nothing to do the lack of a foreskin.

    Oddly enough I remember Albert Goldman claiming that Elvis Presely was screwed up because he wasn’t circumsised.

    go figure.

  27. She has pretty obviously lost her ever-loving mind. Seriously, if this piece is meant as satire, it fails. I can’t even identify what she might be satirizing, and she manages to be horribly racist, misandrist and misogynistic all in one blow. Wow.

    I’m pretty hard to offend, and I was staring open-mouthed at the screen.

  28. Offhand, it sounds like some circumcised Jewish guy has recently wised up and dumped Ms. Jong for an African-American or Asian woman, or a high-school cheerleader. And do we wonder why?

    Or is she a lesbian? In that case, well, I don’t even want to think about it.

    Oh, and gay men, certainly arbiters of, um, taste in penises, prefer uncut dudes by a large majority. And you know how those boys are always in the vanguard.

  29. I’m a Jewish guy, but that’s really neither here nor there. My first thought after reading this was: “I don’t really like how all these women are arguing about the rights of my dick.” Then I realized women probably don’t like all these men arguing about the rights of their pussies … and they have to deal with that a whole lot more than just two silly ladies writing about it on the internets! As a result of this exchange I definitely can empathize with women a lot more. Isn’t that the point? Maybe Erica Jong is an evil genius!

  30. Wow. I read that article by Ms. Erica Jong (who I thought I’d heard of before, maybe not)

    Well, of course that was offensive to me, as a Jewish, circumsized male (who is not f-ed up about sex, and attracted to all types of women)

    It was much more offensive to my MOTHER, however, for whom I have the utmost respect.

    I can easily see how it would be offensive to all Jews, or all men, or anyone who is capable of sane, rational thought. I agree with many of the comments here – but the one I could relate to most was ‘I feel stupider after reading that article’

    I know there are Jews that fit Ms. Jong’s stereotypes, but the vast majority couldn’t be any more different from her vile caricatures.

    It’s no surprise to me that this woman has had several husbands, she sounds like the one who is ‘f***ed up about sex’. Me? I’m going to wait until I find someone I know I want to spend my life with.

  31. I am a 41 y/o male. I was uncircumcised (an American born in Europe) until I was 14 years old when my family decided it was necessary based upon their culture. I became sexually active at the age of 13. Subsequent to my circumcision; I, as the victim in this case can categorically state that it is mutilation (not only aestically, but physcially) and that sexual response and sensitivity is severely curtailed by this practice. It may not be a sexually debilitating; nor as it is practiced primarily in the United States and elsewhere at birth as psychologically traumatizing as female circumcision – but it is physical abuse.

    I consider myself a feminist and will always defend equality between the genders – I only ask the same consideration from those women who also call themselves feminists.

  32. Okay, was she actually saying that those Asian women were submissive? I know that someone already said something about Sandra Oh (who I love), but Yoko Fucking Ono? No, seriously? Does she even know who Yoko Ono is, because the woman is a feminist icon. She and John also had a living arrangement with reversed traditional gender roles — she worked in an office and made tons of money while he raised Sean and baked bread (literally, he was proud of his bread). Not exactly “submissive” — John fully admitted that she was the more assertive one in the relationship. I know that I’m a John and Yoko freak, but I’m absolutely amazed th at someone could mistake Yoko Ono for some kind of submissive Asian stereotype (which, of course, would be insulting to any woman). The woman was and still is a bad ass. Also, John wasn’t Jewish, so that makes things doubly confusing.

  33. Jong misses the mark by blaming fucked up attitudes about sex on circumcision, and suggesting that these things are unique to Jewish populations.

    However, a few things are irritating me about this thread/comments.

    First of all, I don’t think it is productive to call feminist writers “male-baiting” and “misandrist,” or to attribute their work to some defecit in their personal lives (See comment #1, 30, 34, etc) I also have issues with calling outspoken or controversial feminists “batshit,” “crazy,” “insane,” “unhinged,” “off the handle,” etc – which happened in this thread as well as the one about NOW NY.

    I mean, look at this language, please. I’m SURE there is a way of critiquing a woman’s argument without characterizing her as a nutcase man-hater hysteric neurotic granny who’s just jealous and bitter. I REALLY feel like I’m at the wrong website all of a sudden.

    Secondly, with regards to assuring teh menz that we love (every shape and type of) cock, and defending a dude’s right to be attracted to hott women, frankly, I don’t give a damn. Our society already gives men of all ethnicities quite the pass at these things. so, ick, you won’t find sympathy from me there.

    Also, I don’t think Jong is racializing the virgin/whore dichotomy – it has always been racialized, before she ever showed up. She didn’t invent the stereotype of the exotic woman of color. And I don’t read her as enforcing it as much as pointing out how Jewish men have bought into it. (I would add that some men of all races have, though).

    As a Jewish woman myself, I find Jong’s remarks about circumcision pretty weird and offbase. But I think the idea of Jewish men rejecting Jewish women as partners/lovers is something our community struggles with. I’m a lesbian, so it doesn’t affect my relationships personally, but I notice a fair amount of hate and disgust for Jewish women (JAP or Jewish mother stereotype) coming from within my culture.

  34. I also have issues with calling outspoken or controversial feminists “batshit,” “crazy,” “insane,” “unhinged,” “off the handle,” etc – which happened in this thread as well as the one about NOW NY.

    Do you have a problem with someone calling the endorsement of another political candidate “The Ultimate Betrayal” or “A Psychological Gangbang”?

    But I think the idea of Jewish men rejecting Jewish women as partners/lovers is something our community struggles with. I’m a lesbian, so it doesn’t affect my relationships personally, but I notice a fair amount of hate and disgust for Jewish women (JAP or Jewish mother stereotype) coming from within my culture.

    You know, you can talk about that problem without talking about how fucked-up sexually Jewish men are due to circumcision, or theorizing that they seek women from outside the Tribe because they’re fucked up sexually due to circumcision. Especially when, as is well known, some 90-plus percent American men of a certain generation — those born in the 60s and 70s — are circumcised.

    At least in the US, it’s not some kind of obvious sign of Jewishness to be circumcised. So her theory is really very wacked.

  35. But I think the idea of Jewish men rejecting Jewish women as partners/lovers is something our community struggles with. I’m a lesbian, so it doesn’t affect my relationships personally, but I notice a fair amount of hate and disgust for Jewish women (JAP or Jewish mother stereotype) coming from within my culture.

    alice, why do you think that Jong’s stereotyping of minority women is an appropriate way to defend Jewish women?

    Read this graf again:

    Either they marry you and run around with Diana Ross or Beyonce or Naomi Campbell — or they marry Sandra Oh or Lisa Liu or Yoko Ono and she converts.

    She seems specifically concerned that Jewish men are dating African-American women or marrying Asian-American women, because that’s what she references over and over again, with only a token nod to the stereotyped shiksa.

    But that’s fine as far as you’re concerned because she’s somehow vaguely defending Jewish women by positing that Jewish men are fucked up because they’re circumcised just like 80% of the non-Jewish male population in the United States?

  36. Um, who’s Lisa Liu? Ohhh, Lucy Liu! Or Lisa Ling? Same thing I guess…

    Personally I’d suggest that perhaps straight men who are not attracted to women from ethnic backgrounds other than their own are the ones with the hang-ups, though I’d guess non-foreskin-related.

  37. Do you have a problem with someone calling the endorsement of another political candidate “The Ultimate Betrayal” or “A Psychological Gangbang”?

    I don’t support these phrases; I find them exaggerated and inaccurate. But not in the same category of calling women nutcases because we don’t like what they have to say. That has really dangerous sexist undertones – the raving lunatic mad woman who we shouldn’t take seriously. I’d like to think the commenters here are both sensitive to mental disability issues and have enough historical knowledge to understand the implications of silencing or discrediting women by calling them crazy.

    To me it is equivalent to attacking someone’s looks instead of her words. Think Jong is misinformed, or racist, or old-fashioned? Say those things, then. (some have). When it comes to critiquing a woman’s writing, let’s put the accusations of insanity and personal resentment of men to bed, k?

    It might seem that I am taking this a little seriously, but I think we all know how important language can be.

  38. I agree entirely with your article’s criticism of Erica Jong. I am roughly as anti-circumcision as they come but agree that both the tone and content of her article was strikingly odd and ineffectual, resulting in a rambling and disjointed stream of weirdness that looped and twisted seamfully.

    However, I found this rather irksome:

    I don’t think that these boys are mutilated; I don’t think there’s anything wrong with them or their bodies

    I am really not the sort to try an assert my superiority over anyone if I get a chance not to but this is, sadly, ineluctable. Foreskin is an erogenous zone. If you remove the foreskin you remove an erogenous zone.

    Thus a man who has had his foreskin removed is an erogenous zone short.

    This is speaking as an intact man, here. I know this stuff “First hand”, if you will excuse the pun. And it is really nothing minor at all, in fact I might go so far as to say that the quantity of pleasure provided is massive and that, knowing what I do know, coping without it would be a struggle and a pity. I may have a mutant cock, who knows, but if that is the case then there are many sharing my disability here.

    Indeed there is a study which shows as much in a very reliable manner, with the intact gentlemen having far more erogenously sensitive penises throughout and one of the most sensitive areas on a circumcised penis being the scar where the residual foreskin remnants linger. The implications of that are rather worrying, I am sure you agree.

    I am very thankful for your arguments concerning sovereignty and I think them very eloquent and well made, but this issue concerns more than that.

  39. Entertaining that women and circumsized men feel comfortable commenting on the values of foreskin. You have no f*&$%ing clue. As an uncircumsized man (thanks again mom for not running with the lemmings) – I can tell you I LOVE my foreskin. It is a very erogenous zone. I don’t know if crcumsized men are screwed up about sex, but I can guarantee you they are missing out.

    BTW – why all the ranting about circumsized women? I have never seen even one.

  40. But I think the idea of Jewish men rejecting Jewish women as partners/lovers is something our community struggles with. I’m a lesbian, so it doesn’t affect my relationships personally, but I notice a fair amount of hate and disgust for Jewish women (JAP or Jewish mother stereotype) coming from within my culture.

    I agree. I didn’t like this article. I am opposed to circumcision, but not for these reasons. I too found it racist, and in a particularly weird way that misses the point, which is that in my family’s experience, Jewish men leave their Jewish wives not for non-white women, but for blonde shiksas. But I’ve been uncomfortable with the wholesale dismissal of Jong’s concern with Jewish men’s rejection and public mockery of Jewish women (starting with “Take my wife, please,” and continuing up to, well, every movie Woody Allen’s ever made with a woman coded as Jewish in it). It’s almost as though Jewish men sell Jewish women out for acceptance in mainstream culture.

    And she’s dead wrong about Yoko Ono–I don’t even know where that’s coming from. Obviously, she’s being racist and wrong. But I’m not seeing much understanding here that she’s not actually making up this issue–negative stereotypes of Jewish women abound, and are invoked and perpetuated by many Jewish men who then reject Jewish women as lovers and partners. That’s real, and it’s deeply problematic for Jewish women, and no amount of “why shouldn’t Jewish men find shiksas attractive” or “it’s natural to be attracted to all different kinds of women” is going to actually address that issue.

    And, uh, what’s wrong with marrying an Asian or African-American woman who then converts? Did Jong miss the memo about Judaism not being a fucking genetic category?

    And this is just disingenuous. Judaism is a religion, yes. And being Jewish, usually Ashkenazi in the US, is also an ethnic category and a cultural heritage. The issue is that many Ashkenazi men routinely reject women from their own ethnic group as unattractive, too loud/opinionated, etc. Is there anything wrong with falling in love with and marrying a non-Jewish woman who then converts? No. Is there something wrong with a larger cultural pattern that indicates a rejection of an ethnic group of women? Yes. Yes, there is.

    I just really dislike the tone of some of these criticisms.

    It’s no surprise to me that this woman has had several husbands, she sounds like the one who is ‘f***ed up about sex’.

    Because women who sleep around, or who have married several times, must be fucked up around sex?

    it sounds like some circumcised Jewish guy has recently wised up and dumped Ms. Jong for an African-American or Asian woman, or a high-school cheerleader. And do we wonder why?

    Because a Jewish woman’s critique of an issue that is current in her ethnic community could only be the result of being a woman scorned, and obviously no-one would want to fuck her anyway, ha ha?

    I just feel like this article has many things wrong with it, certainly, but dismissing the underlying concern as “crazy,” failing even to acknowledge the Jewish cultural dynamic that it is trying, however incompetently, to address, is a real blindness to the experiences of women of a certain ethnic group–telling us that that issue doesn’t exist, or isn’t important. And I can’t help but feel that that’s a serious problem on a feminist website that is usually so reliable in acknowledging and validating the importance of women’s ethnic/cultural/racial concerns.

  41. But I’ve been uncomfortable with the wholesale dismissal of Jong’s concern with Jewish men’s rejection and public mockery of Jewish women (starting with “Take my wife, please,” and continuing up to, well, every movie Woody Allen’s ever made with a woman coded as Jewish in it). It’s almost as though Jewish men sell Jewish women out for acceptance in mainstream culture.

    Not to discount what you’re saying specifically about Jewish culture, but how is that different than African-American men disparaging black women as “hos” or Asian-American men dating white women because they see Asian-American women as nags?

    It’s a problem that all of the subcultures have in the US. It may be more prominent for Jews since they’ve been prominent in popular culture for 100 years, but you’re going to hear the same disparaging remarks about “their” women from any subculture, along with the valorization of the perfect “other” who, despite Jong’s racist imaginings, is almost inevitably white, blonde, blue-eyed, and middle-class.

  42. how is that different than African-American men disparaging black women as “hos” or Asian-American men dating white women because they see Asian-American women as nags?

    It’s not–or at least, I don’t think it is. One difference may be that post-WW2, nobody fetishizes Jewish women as an exotic, sexy other (whereas before, we had Rebecca of Ivanhoe and Justine of the Alexandria Quartet), which means that Jewish women are far less likely to receive any kind of sexual validation of their attractiveness from anybody, even of the poisonous fetishized kind, but I don’t think there’s a difference. I think that a discussion of Jong’s piece that both attacked it for its racism/stupidity and took seriously the problem that she’s trying to address would make exactly that connection, and look at the parallels among the ways that Jewish and black women, for example, are demonized by the men of their ethnic/racial group. For instance, both groups of women are often considered less attractive for precisely those physical traits that are associated with their ethnic/racial heritage: coarse curly hair for both, big noses for Jewish women, full lips for black women; both groups of women are dismissed as loud, overbearing, castrating, not deferential enough to “their” men; both groups of women are mocked for their traditions of strong matriarchs. A critique of this article that took the dynamic that Jong is trying to address seriously would be able to make those feminist connections instead of just saying “Hey, Jewish men have the right to get turned on by non-Jewish women.”

    As an aside, it’s interesting that it’s not all subcultures, isn’t it? At least, I never hear about Irish- or Italian-American men turning away from the women in their ethnic groups (though one does hear plenty of jokes about Italian mothers). Perhaps they’re more thoroughly “white,” and so that gets subsumed in the general “(White) American women are materialistic demanding bitches, so sensible (White) American men should get (defential, Asian) mail order brides” crap. Though I still think that’s just not as prevalent culturally as what goes with Jewish and black women.

  43. “BTW – why all the ranting about circumsized women? I have never seen even one.”

    Have you tried going to Egypt?

  44. I have never seen even one.

    Well, also…how do you know? Most women who have been circumsized don’t walk around showing their genitals to strangers.

    Thanks, alicepaul.

  45. I’m kind of done with satire. It’s a bit tired. At one point it was funny, when smart clever people did it, but now it’s just a technique that people who aren’t very creative use to be mean.

    Browne

  46. EG and Alicepaul, you both make good points. I wasn’t trying to ignore the very legitimate concerns of Jewish women; rather, I simply didn’t read Jong’s articles as raising those points in any sort of substantive way. The fact that Jewish women are stereotyped as unattractive is absolutely a feminist issue; however, framing it as Jong does — that Jewish men are fucked up because they like black and Asian women — pits women against each other and simultaneously insults men.

    Your concerns certainly aren’t mislaid; I just don’t see where Jong even began to raise them.

  47. At least, I never hear about Irish- or Italian-American men turning away from the women in their ethnic groups (though one does hear plenty of jokes about Italian mothers).

    That may just be because you’re not in those ethnic groups. I’m in both, and I hear it all the time. For Irish women, it’s usually frigidity and religion; for Italian women, it’s that harbinger of disgusting ethnicity, body hair. You know, the old joke about the Italian wife/girlfriend having braids under her arms.

    And I do think that popular culture at least has swung back around a bit. Jennifer Aniston may not be Jewish, but she played an attractive Jewish character on “Friends” for a decade. It’s pretty hard to find the full-on stereotype, though Sarah Silverman did a very annoying one in “School of Rock.”

    Like Jill said, if Jong is trying to defend Jewish women, this was a really piss-poor way to go about it since she seemed a lot more interested in perpetuating racist stereotypes than in actually examining the public image of Jewish women.

  48. And since I’m drawing parallels today:

    Ever noticed how the burden of continuing ethnicity always falls on the women? A man can marry/date outside his ethnicity, and what can you do, boys will be boys, the women in his group should have tried to be more attractive/less ethnic/more white.

    But God forbid a woman should date or even marry outside her group. Then she gets shit from both ends: from outsiders who resent her for marrying into their group and from insiders who resent that she’s not carrying out her duty to continue the line. The pressure seems to be especially strong on African-American women, for whom its still a huge taboo to date outside their race. I know my now-ex sister-in-law caught all kinds of hell for not marrying a nice Jewish boy and as soon as she and my brother separated, she went onto J-Date to find the kind of husband her parents could approve of. And she’s from a Reform family.

  49. Oh, Jesus, I just re-read the piece and now I’m even more disgusted with Jong:

    In my parents’ youth, there was a show that ran forever called: Abie’s Irish Rose. That was the forbidden fruit in 1920s, 1930s New York. If you updated it, you’d have to call it Abie’s Swahili Sweetie or Abie’s Chinese Lotus. Nowadays it might be Abie’s Tantric Tootsie. The idea would be the same: brilliant Jewish boy flees his mother and hightails it for India or China or Japan. (And you can find India, Africa and China right here in New York City. You don’t even have to take a jet).

    Sorry, I don’t see how that defends Jewish women at all.

  50. “BTW – why all the ranting about circumsized women? I have never seen even one.”

    So ignorant and yet so well informed…Perhaps we could focus upon this latter characteristic for just a moment? Fellow feminists: please imagine your reaction if a woman was having an erogenous zone removed in a western nation which left her still capable of functioning sexually but with diminished reaction.

    Would you campaign? Protest? Write and speak against it? Well treat the sexes equally and do the same for the boys that have no voice. Absence of consent or medical reasons means that erogenous zones should be left well alone, regardless of whether they belong to a penis or vagina.

  51. And, um, some African-American and Asian men and women are Jewish, either by birth or conversion, independently of having met a Jewish mate. Does Ms. Jong think the only Jews around are white, except those who have converted to marry a Jew?

    Apparently. And that converting is a clear sign that Jewish men fetishize non-Jewish women, because their non-Jewish wives then become Jews! Oh…wait….

  52. That may just be because you’re not in those ethnic groups. I’m in both, and I hear it all the time. For Irish women, it’s usually frigidity and religion; for Italian women, it’s that harbinger of disgusting ethnicity, body hair. You know, the old joke about the Italian wife/girlfriend having braids under her arms.

    Very probably because I’m not part of those ethnic groups, then. Thanks for the info–I’d never heard the bit about Irish women. Though the body-hair thing is pretty familiar to me as a Jewish woman as well. The feminist Jewish magazine Lilith once ran a special feature devoted to hair in which they summed up survey results as indicating that many Jewish women feel that they have too much dark, ethnic hair in too many places.

    And I do think that popular culture at least has swung back around a bit. Jennifer Aniston may not be Jewish, but she played an attractive Jewish character on “Friends” for a decade.

    I’m not convinced. Sure, Rachel was portrayed as a desirable, if flighty JAP. But I don’t really feel that one portrayal of a Jewish woman as sexually desirable in several decades is that much progress. The show it spun off of, Mad About You was classic “Jewish boy marries his shiksa dream girl” stuff.

    I actually don’t find the paragraph at Abie’s Irish Rose that offensive. She’s not wrong about the fact that shows and movies etc. portraying Jewish boys finding perfect love by marrying outside the tribe have been popular for almost a century. Where she continues to be wrong and racist is by positing that going outside the tribe for Jewish men these days means seeking out non-white women. Mad About You was Abie’s Irish Rose updated, and it featured, surprise, a blonde gentile woman.

    Sorry, I don’t see how that defends Jewish women at all.

    Mnemosyne and Jill, I don’t think either Alice or I indicated that this was a even a halfway decent “defense” of Jewish women. We both expressed distress that the cultural dynamic that Jong was trying to address in an inept and racist manner wasn’t being acknowledged. I really do appreciate Jill acknowledging it now.

    framing it as Jong does — that Jewish men are fucked up because they like black and Asian women — pits women against each other and simultaneously insults men.

    I completely agree; it is a terrible piece of work, racist, unrealistic, and unproductive.

    Your concerns certainly aren’t mislaid; I just don’t see where Jong even began to raise them.

    I find it implicit in why she would choose to write this piece in the first place–why write a piece in which she talks about how “Jewish women bear the brunt forever after,” indicated by Jewish men running around with every non-Jewish woman they could find. That’s the topic of the essay–that and the distress one feels watching an infant one loves being circumcized (or at least, the distress I felt). It’s pretty much the entire cultural background.

    Does Ms. Jong think the only Jews around are white, except those who have converted to marry a Jew?

    Come on. It’s pretty clear from context that Jong is talking about the Ashkenazi Jewish communities in the US–the vast, vast majority of Jews in this country. There certainly are non-white Jews in the world and in the US, but it’s not an outrageous generalization to indicate that the vast majority of Jews here are white. It’s a fact.

    Apparently. And that converting is a clear sign that Jewish men fetishize non-Jewish women, because their non-Jewish wives then become Jews! Oh…wait….

    Again, come on. Jong is talking about Jews as an ethnic group. You can convert to Judaism and still not be ethnically Jewish. You haven’t been raised in Jewish culture, your personality hasn’t been formed by growing up in a Jewish family with an American Ashkenazi sensibility, and hey, you don’t carry the burden of Jewish misogynist stereotypes. They become Jews religiously, not ethnically.

    I can’t be the only Jewish woman who who threw something at my television during the episode of Sex and the City when newly minted Jew Charlotte York told her husband “We’re Jews, we’ve survived worse than this.” Fuck you, Charlotte “Shiksa Goddess” York. Going through a religious conversion does not magically endow you with the ethnic and cultural heritage, and Charlotte certainly didn’t take on the nagging, hairy, big-nosed cultural baggage. In the very episode when her fiance proposes to her at a Jewish singles event, we see two very stereotypically Jewish women by the buffet–curly hair, big noses, whiny voices, insulting the “bald” and “fat” men, and the implication is that the reason is clear why the only hot Jewish man in the room (not her fiance–some other guy) would make a beeline toward Charlotte.

    I like to think that Carrie Bradshaw is pretty clearly coded as Jewish. But, well, I’m not convinced that’s anything more than projection on my part, and she’s a pretty horrific character.

    But God forbid a woman should date or even marry outside her group.

    Word. Especially if she’s Jewish, because Judaism is matrilineal. Last time I brought a guy to meet my grandfather, Granddad spent ages asking if he was Jewish, and telling him that he was a shaygetz, on and on and on, and asking him if he would want to raise his children in the Church of England (Boyfriend was English). All I could think was “Pretty big talk from a guy who left his Jewish wife and two small children so he could run off with the blonde gentile woman next door.”

  53. Um, let me amend a part of that comment (it’s in moderation):

    Jong’s essay is racist, unrealistic, unproductive, and poorly written almost to the point of incoherence.

  54. Other tv shows featuring the Jewish man and his hot shiksa wife: “The War at Home” and “Curb Your Enthusiasm.” The message is clear that Jewish women just aren’t desirable enough.

    Also, Jennifer Aniston playing a popular Jewish character is actually more offensive to me than it is a sign of progress. It is similar to how, on “The L Word,” the two major (and only) Latina characters were NOT EVEN played by Latina actresses. As if there is some shortage of talented Jewish and Latina performers running around.

  55. There certainly are non-white Jews in the world and in the US, but it’s not an outrageous generalization to indicate that the vast majority of Jews here are white.

    Except that Jong isn’t merely saying “In America most Jews are light-skinned.” (Racist groups certainly don’t consider Jews “white”, but that’s a different story.) She’s ranting about Jewish men who seek out non-white women, even if those women convert to Judaism.

    And again, come on. East Coast Ashkenazic ethnic Judaism isn’t the One True Way to be Jewish. Are you really saying that Jong is just whining that the newly-minted Mrs. Wong-Lefkowitz is still really a goyim because she doesn’t know how to make gefilte fish? That the religious stuff is just fluffery, because the real issue is whether you went to Hebrew school?

  56. A goy. One non-Jew=goy. More than one=goyim.

    What I am saying is that Jong is addressing the issue of Ashkenazi Jewish men rejecting Ashkenazi Jewish women as partners. Converts to Judaism do not take on the misogynist stereotypes associated with Jewish women. When the issue is ethnic Jewish men rejecting ethnic Jewish women, whether or not their partners convert is immaterial.

    I don’t give a shit about One Right Way to be Jewish. But don’t take two radically different ways and tell me they’re the same.

  57. Too much deconstruction. She got old and now she’s yesterdays fish. She don’t like it. She remembers being the young hottie. Too bad, so sad. Spoil the grands and live like you mean it.

  58. You know what, mythago? The more I think about it, the more insulted I am that you just dismissed my ethnic and cultural heritage as knowing how to make gefilte fish and going to Hebrew school. Tell me, are there any other ethnic/racial groups whose culture you would feel so comfortable speaking of with disdain? Do you really not see how growing up with an Ashkenazi Jewish family would provide a person with a rich experience, a sense of history, a perspective on the world that a goy will simply not have, no matter her conversion? An experience, history, and perspective that you seem happy to wave away and devalue as “knowing how to make gefilte fish”? As if, by the way, food–the way we sustain ourselves and our children, the way we as human beings across cultures carry on traditions–is somehow a mere frippery.

    Being Italian is not the same as being Catholic. And being religiously Jewish is not the same as being ethnically Jewish. It’s a shame that there aren’t two separate words in common use, because that seems to confuse some gentiles such as yourself, but that doesn’t mean the concepts aren’t separate. Friends of mine who are Conservative Jews acknowledge me as a Jew even though I’ve never set foot in Temple except to attend other people’s Bar/Bat Mitzvahs. One of them told me, off-hand, that I was “the most Jewish person” she knew. And that is because culture and religion are not the same.

    Would you wave away Italian culture as spaghetti and confirmation? Black culture as collard greens and getting the spirit? Would you try to tell Italian women that they shouldn’t care if Italian men reject them for their armpit hair as long as those men marry WASP women who convert to Catholicism and learn to make spaghetti?

  59. Well said, EG!

    Too much deconstruction. She got old and now she’s yesterdays fish. She don’t like it. She remembers being the young hottie.

    Oh, holy fuck. What a gross, feeble way to use age and beauty in order to tear apart a woman’s argument. Anti-feminists have been doing it for years – painting a woman’s perspective as nothing more than the desperate resentment of an ugly hag. Please.

  60. Asian-American men dating white women because they see Asian-American women as nags?

    Actually, Asian women are seen as submissive. Luckily there are women like me who shatter this stereotype to smithereens.

    (You’re welcome, world.)

  61. Actually, Asian women are seen as submissive. Luckily there are women like me who shatter this stereotype to smithereens.

    Asian-American women are seen as submissive by Asian-American men? I know that’s the way they’re viewed by white guys, but I didn’t realize that the stereotype was active within the Asian-American community as well.

  62. Growing up, my mom told my brothers marry Chinese they’re easier to handle. Whites will be too difficult. One married an Asian woman, one married a white woman. Both are very happy.

  63. Very nice article. I’m a circumcised American man, and I think that we share the same views on circumcision. However, I would note that circumcising an infant is inherently easier, simpler, and safer than having the operation performed on an adult. The vast majority of American men are circumcised, and many don’t even know what circumcision is, or that they are circumcised, until after childhood.

    I’m conflicted about whether, if I had a baby boy, I would have him circumcised at birth. Although I would normally disagree with this sort of thing, I might have him circumcised, if only to avoid a stigma later on in life, of being different from other men.

    And I agree that female circumcision is something completely different and quite scary in comparison.

  64. Like what you said…except not calling male circumcision mutilation.
    Looking up the word mutilation:
    Disfigurement or injury by removal or destruction of a conspicuous or essential part of the body.
    1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.
    2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter1.
    3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.
    Is there bias to not name circumcision a mutilation?
    For it clearly is defined a mutilation in every aspect.

  65. After reading this article and all of the retarded comments, I feel as though I am obligated to put in my two cents. First off I would like to say that I am not circumcised. This goes back to comment 21, yea, so your saying that it would be an acceptable practice to circumcise women right after birth. I mean they won’t remember the operation anyway so what’s the big deal, right. Yea, they may never know the pleasures of the clit, and would probably still enjoy sex so who really cares. And if most every woman were circumcised, then when a man saw a rare clit, he would probably think the thing were pretty disgusting too. Circumcised men dont know what it feels like to be uncircumcised so of course they say that they enjoy sex all the same. So the point I’m getting at is that everything in life is relative. This mutilation is worse at an older age, male or female, because a person can consiosly remember what life was like before the operation. Yet this impact of mutilation is bad at all ages even at young ages that won’t be remembered. Imagine a baby boys who had a normal enjoyable life prior to birth. And then he is delivered and his first memories of people are associated with the cutting off of one of the most sensitive parts of the human body and associated pain that lasts for several days. Its no wonder that several studies have shown that circumcised boys have problems with breast feeding and normal physical and psycological developement. So as crazy as she is, this could prove her article on why Jewish guys have deep rooted phycological problems when it comes to that part of the guy. The percentage of men that are circumcised in the united states is approximately %56. I have had several partners who never knew that I was uncircumcised because they were expecting an uncircumcised penis to be something horrid. I have had women tell me that they enjoy it better than circumcised men and even a lady tell me that she did not circumcise her son for other womens sake even though the father was. But hey, to each there own. I think that the circumcised penis looks better when limp but to go through all that shit just for the aesthetic reasons is just plain stupid. If you ask me, I don’t really give a shit what anybody thinks of my dick because its only there to please one person and thats número uno. On to other conscerns, I can’t stand it when an author gets slandered for use of stereotypes. To deny our differences is just plain ignorant. Every race and gender is physically and mentaly different due to the different regions and customs that we have had to evolve from. People want to believe the physical part but then pull a hear no evil on the mental part. I can’t speak as a jewish man, but I can say I love women, all women, even feminists. So now that I buttered you feminist up I am going to give my sexist views. I believe that the liberalization of women is the sole reason why America is in the shitty state that its in right now. Divorce rates have skyrocketed, moral values are at an all time low, and sex sells more than ever. What it all comes down to is that when women are left at the wims of their emotions, they tend to think irrationally. Other civilzations have survived thousands of years and there are reasons that they have put boundaries on women. We are the first country to try this liberalization of women experiment and for its half a century or so of life, I think its safe to say that we let the monster out of the cage and there’s no turning back. So this is a hell of a lot more rambling then I planned on doing so…

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