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Why not illegalize it?

We’ve been talking a lot the past few days about the recent study which demonstrated that the abortion rate is no higher in countries where abortion is legal than where it’s illegal. Zuzu just wrote about Matthew Yglesias’s post, and she’s right that it does ooze with the privilege of never having to worry about pregnancy. But Matt touched a nerve with me too, for different reasons — he brought up a very fundamental issue in the abortion debate that commenters on the pro-life Catholic blog Vox Nova have been discussing:

Will outlawing abortion decrease the abortion rate? And does it even matter?

Now, as a reproductive justice advocate, I want to see the abortion rate decrease for the same reason that I want to see the rate of most surgeries remain low — because preventative care is better. It’s better to avoid abortion, just like it’s better to avoid a root canal. But even though it’s better to avoid it, when you need it it’d damn well better be there. So I support access to contraception and comprehensive sexual health education because (a) I think women and men have a right to bodily autonomy and to information, and (b) because contraception and safer sex tools are part of preventative health care. I want to see abortion legal because I believe that women have a right to control their own reproduction, and abortion is a part of that. I’d also like to see abortion be rare because no one has abortions for fun, and I think it’s pretty safe to say that the vast majority of women would like to avoid circumstances where they seek out abortion — whether those circumstances are birth control failure, being pregnant when you don’t want to be, having a wanted pregnancy go wrong, surviving rape, experiencing a change in life circumstances that turns a wanted pregnancy into an unwanted one, and on and on. Many of those circumstances are avoidable; some aren’t. Plus there’s the fact that we’re human, and since humans tend to be imperfect, we institute a whole series of safety nets in order to make sure we have as much recourse as possible when we find ourselves in situations we don’t want to be in. We usually wear our seat belts, but if we get into a car wreck the paramedics come no matter what.

So that’s where I’m coming from — and it leads to a view that abortion absolutely must be legal, safe and accessible, and I agree with Matt that the case for reproductive freedom most certainly does not hinge on the question of whether outlawing abortion decreases the abortion rate.

But that question does matter in part of a multi-pronged policy position. And here, I’d like to take on the question — and a few other points — in a way that I hope will challenge the mainstream “pro-life” view, not in a way that solely reflects my human rights ideals as a basis for reproductive justice (although I think it does that, too).

A commenter over at Vox Nova (I can’t remember the exact thread), in response to the Guttmacher study, said something to the effect of, “Does it matter whether or not illegalization decreases the abortion rate? Laws against rape don’t stop people from raping and laws against domestic violence don’t stop wife-beating, but we still make them illegal.”

It’s an argument I hear a lot, and it approaches the point that Matt makes from a different angle: When we’re talking about an issue of fundamental justice — which both sides think it is, just from radically different positions — why should the rate of occurrence influence its legal status?

First, I’ll say that I do think outlawing abortion would decrease the abortion rate. I think that decrease would be negligible, but I would imagine that there are a small number of women who would not terminate their pregnancies if they knew they couldn’t do so safely and legally. I’m fairly certain that there are already women who desperately want to terminate their pregnancies but aren’t able to because anti-choicers have made abortion access incredibly limited in a lot of places. But I’ll emphasize that the number of women who would carry to term if abortion were illegal would be small. Abortion is already not a decision that women take lightly. Women usually weigh their options carefully and decide accordingly. When you really feel like you can’t have a baby, you really feel like you can’t have a baby, and the stats that Matt criticizes demonstrate that millions of women, all around the world, will go to the most extreme measures to terminate their pregnancies. I’ve volunteered for an organization that houses low-income women coming to New York for abortions. They come from all over the country, and they’ve scraped together everything they have — everything — to pay for the procedure. They sell whatever they can. They’re willing to sleep on park benches or in Grand Central station. There are already women, in the United States, going to great lengths to access abortion. Illegalization won’t stop that, and that claim is bolstered by the WHO statistics.

In that way, (among others) abortion is unlike most other acts that we qualify as crimes. I suspect that if abortion were criminalized in the U.S., we’d see an immediate drop in the rate, and within a few years see it go back up again as underground networks of abortion providers were established and as women collectively figured out ways to self-terminate or to go abroad for the procedure. But that’s neither here nor there.

Abortion is different from rape and domestic violence in the fundamental way that it’s an act done out of perceived necessity, not out of anger or hate or a taste for hurting. It is an act done to one’s own body, usually out of a sense of self-protection and self-preservation.

Criminal law serves a variety of purposes, but among them are punishment, deterrence, revenge and protection of society at large. I’m of the opinion that our criminal justice system is pretty thoroughly fucked, but I do believe that we need some sort of system for regulating crime and keeping society as safe as possible; I don’t believe that we have a system like that in the United States, but for the purposes of this argument, let’s assume that we do. The purpose of such a system with regard to rape or DV is not just to punish a bad act, but also to deter others from committing that bad act and to protect members of society from people who commit bad acts. And, when carried out properly, it can work. Will it end rape and domestic violence? Of course not. But sexual assault rates have decreased as feminists influenced sexual assault laws and made them more fair. Domestic violence rates have gone down as men lost the right to beat their wives with impunity, and as law enforcement was trained to view such violence as criminal and not as a “personal matter.” As women gained greater social rights, men have had their rights to control and dominate thoroughly challenged. The criminal law itself has shifted to reflect that, and that has further shifted the reality of crime.

So how does abortion fit into our ideas of criminal justice? The punishment aspect is certainly there. But what about deterrence? I would argue that rape and DV laws act as significant deterrents to those crimes, especially when they’re coupled with a criminal justice system that actually takes such claims seriously. Men don’t have a physical need to rape or to do violence to women. However, women do face the biological reality of getting pregnant. And since the earliest days of humanity we’ve tried to control that reality. Often, controlling that reality is a medical necessity — the woman whose body can handle 17 pregnancies and still allow her to be healthy and live to old age is the rare one. Even more often, the reality is a social one. Resources are limited, and women who already have children to care for are going to make that a priority; when one more mouth to feed isn’t an option, it really isn’t an option. When I look at my own life, getting pregnant and giving birth right now is absolutely not an option. There’s a necessity, and sometimes even a desperation, to abortion that seriously distinguishes it from other “crimes.” That necessity is going to have a serious impact on the potential deterrent factor. A man who decides not to rape the woman he went on a date with isn’t giving up a whole lot when he decides to conform with the law. A woman who is considering whether or not to conform with the law when abortion is illegal is feeling like her whole life is at stake.

And so women will — and do — risk everything.

There’s also a balance of harms. When we outlaw rape or domestic violence, the only people who lose are people who commit rape and assault. But when we outlaw abortion, things get trickier, because we know that women die or are injured. So there is a much, much higher cost to criminalizing abortion than there is to criminalizing rape or other forms of violence against women.

We also know that between the woman and the fetus, the woman is the one who can actually survive on her own. We know that the fetus cannot live without being attached to her body. We know that we don’t require people to use their bodies in the service of others without their consent. We know that involuntary servitude is not permitted in the United States, and that it’s morally wrong. We know that there is no legal foundation for compelling someone to involuntarily donate their organs, their blood supply, and the rest of their body in order to keep someone else alive. And so while pro-lifers are quick to brand abortion “murder,” it’s not anywhere near that simple.

There are a whole lot of other reasons why the comparison of abortion to crime is faulty and unlikely to have any real impact, but those, I think, are the basics (other than the standard pro-choice bodily autonomy arguments).

Of course, in order to criminalize abortion, pro-lifers would actually have to admit that their goal is to punish women and not to save babies. When they’ve said that it doesn’t really matter how many women die from illegal abortion, they’re thisclose to admitting it, but not quite there yet. That’s where the “How much time should she do?” question comes in: If abortion is indeed murder, shouldn’t women who terminate pregnancies be tried for murder?

And then there’s the question that Dianne continually raised over at Vox Nova: If life begins at conception, what are pro-lifers doing about the 70 percent miscarriage rate?

Yes, you read that correctly: If you apply the pro-life definition of pregnancy — which isn’t the one applied by the medical community — the majority of pregnancies never make it to term. Pro-lifers argue that life begins at the point of fertilization, and that as soon as the sperm squirms its way into the egg, a new life has begun and any purposeful termination of that life is murder. The medical community, on the other hand, doesn’t generally weigh in on when life begins, but does say that pregnancy begins at the point of implantation — that is, when the fertilized egg implants in the uterine lining. That’s the first point at which pregnancy can be detected. It’s also an important point because more than half of all fertilized eggs naturally don’t implant. So, if you go with the anti-choice definition of life, more than half of all “unique human beings” never implant, and get naturally flushed out of the woman’s body.

To borrow again from Dianne, if there was a disease that was killing 70 percent of all infants, wouldn’t you be demanding funding to research it? Agitate for a cure?

As far as I can tell, there is not a single organization dedicated to ending pre-implantation “miscarriages.” Not a single pro-life organization lists it as an item on their political agenda.

I know the whole natural vs. purposeful death argument will come in here, but the point still holds: If a disease were killing 70 percent of all Americans, we’d be more worried about that than the murder rate.

And so I submit, once again, that anti-choicers don’t actually believe that an embryo is a human deserving of the same rights that you and I are entitled to. They see embryos as something less than born people. They’ll never admit it, but their actions speak pretty loudly.

Back to Matt. He writes, “The trouble with these kinds of cross-national statistics, though, is that there are all kinds of correlating variables and there’s no way for the kind of survey we’re talking about to isolate the impact of legal change on abortion.”

He’s right. But here’s what we do know: Women have abortions, everywhere in the world, regardless of whether abortion is legal or not. The abortion rate tends to be higher in places where contraception is limited. The abortion rate substantially decreases when contraception use becomes more widespread. Women are willing to go through all kinds of horrific illegal procedures in order to end a pregnancy — that is just how badly some women do not want to be pregnant. Reproductive freedom tends to correlate with greater gender equality, better health care and higher levels of female education, not just internationally but within the United States as well. And when abortion is illegal, it is more dangerous.

So the recognition that illegalization does not end abortion is an important one. The recognition that abortion rates are really really high in a lot of countries where it’s illegal is important, particularly when it’s paired with the evidence that illegal = more dangerous. It demonstrates that women are willing to break the law, in huge numbers, to access this procedure when they have to. It forces us to look at the harm that illegalization creates — not just the physical harm, the maiming and the deaths, but the harm in turning millions of women into criminals. Does the reproductive freedom movement “hinges crucially” on the argument that outlawing abortion doesn’t decrease the abortion rate? Of course not. But it is a practical consideration that should be taken into account; and at the very least, these statistics do demonstrate that outlawing abortion is most certainly not the most effective way to achieve a low abortion rate. If one of the goals is to keep the abortion rate low — and that’s certainly a goal of the pro-choice movement — then these stats matter.

If abortion is illegal, some women will not have abortions. For anti-choice people, that may be enough — any lives saved, they’ll argue, make illegalization worth it. When they make that argument, it’s important to counter with the facts of illegalization: Women will still have abortions, and they will have them in large numbers if they can’t access contraception. Those millions of women will be branded criminals. Some women will die. Some will be seriously injured and maimed. Finally, the countries that have had the most success at lowering the abortion rate have not taken the illegalization route; quite the opposite. The countries with the most “pro-life” policies have some of the highest abortion rates. If the genuine goal of the pro-life movement is to decrease the abortion rate, they should be looking at what works. They aren’t, and I’m definitely not the only one who is highly skeptical when they claim they care about decreasing the number of abortions.

All of those facts emphasize that the anti-choice position is an ideology of punishing women. When you factor in their lack of care for born people and their complete hypocrisy and logical inconsistency when it comes to defining and protecting “life,” you paint a bigger picture of a movement that is obsessed with control, not with life. You paint a picture of a movement that doesn’t actually care what the abortion rate is, so long as they can exert control over women’s lives.

The stats that Matt and others have criticized are a part of painting that picture. No one ever claimed they were the whole thing.


120 thoughts on Why not illegalize it?

  1. Anti-choicers don’t necessarily care if the abortion rate drops. They do realize that if abortion is illegal, women who seek them run the risk of serious injury or death. That’s what matters to them.

  2. I want to see the abortion rate decrease for the same reason that I want to see the rate of most surgeries remain low — because preventative care is better. It’s better to avoid abortion, just like it’s better to avoid a root canal. But even though it’s better to avoid it, when you need it it’d damn well better be there.

    Very well said. That makes sense.

  3. I really like this post because it’s a substantial engagement with the arguments of the other side, which is rare in political discourse.

    I’m not sure I agree with you that rape or domestic violence laws and punishments are a substantial deterrent. While I think the deterrence argument works well in some kinds of crimes, like economic crime, violent crime doesn’t seem to respond as well to deterrent effects. Reductions in rape and domestic violence have happened because feminists have worked (and are still working) to change the cultural climate around these acts. The justice system is part of the cultural climate, but I don’t think it’s as simple as “more time for rape=less rape.”

    But to me it comes down to this: rape, murder, domestic violence, all these criminal acts, they hurt people. Real people, not blastocysts or embryos. These acts are unacceptable in a civil society. Abortion is about a woman’s own body. It is not morally wrong, and not destructive to society. I know these other arguments need to be made, but the basic one that matters to me is that abortion is simply not wrong. We don’t criminalize things that aren’t wrong; we don’t criminalize people’s personal medical decisions about their own bodies.

    Oh, and a small typo:

    I suspect that if abortion were legalized in the U.S., we’d see an immediate drop in the rate, and within a few years see it go back up again as underground networks of abortion providers were established and as women collectively figured out ways to self-terminate or to go abroad for the procedure.

    I think you mean criminalized, or illegalized, the word you use throughout that I’m not sure is even a word. 🙂

  4. “Abortion is different from rape and domestic violence in the fundamental way that it’s an act done out of perceived necessity, not out of anger or hate or a taste for hurting. It is an act done to one’s own body, usually out of a sense of self-protection and self-preservation.”

    But you open the door for the fact that abortion and rape and domestic violence are the same in that they are all about control: control given to one person (or taken by that person), and control taken away from the victim. Just a thought.

  5. Before abortion was legalized, there were “therapeutic” abortions available to those who could make their case to their hospital review board — generally the well-off and knowledgeable. I imagine if abortion were made illegal once more, there would again be implicit exceptions for the life/health/mental health of the mother. You’d just have to have the resources to get someone to certify you’d go crazy if you had the kid.

  6. This is a very interesting and well thought out argument! It is coming right before I am going to go volunteer at an abortion clinic. We’re going to walk woman in, because there are protesters every Saturday.

    But you open the door for the fact that abortion and rape and domestic violence are the same in that they are all about control: control given to one person (or taken by that person), and control taken away from the victim. Just a thought.

    I would argue that. Rape and domestic violence are about controlling anther human being. A live, already here, human being.

    Abortion is about the ability to control oneself, to have some say over what happens to your OWN live, already here body.

    Just a thought. 🙂

  7. But you open the door for the fact that abortion and rape and domestic violence are the same in that they are all about control: control given to one person (or taken by that person), and control taken away from the victim.

    So control over one’s own body is the same as attempts to violently assert power over someone else? Sorry, not buying it.

  8. If abortion were again made illegal the rich would send their daughters to Europe, the middle class to Mexico but the poor would be doomed to seeking abortions from ‘quack’ doctors in back alleys or try to perform the abortion themselves. Education is the key to non-wanted pregnancy – not making abortion illegal. Hormones do not care what is illegal or are even aware of consequences.
    Cheerily
    IJK

  9. Fantastic post — as Dr Confused says above, it’s hard sometimes to get the illumination that comes when opposing sides engage with each other’s opinions. On the internet? Never. 🙂

    To advance that end:

    If abortion is illegal, some women will not have abortions. For anti-choice people, that may be enough — any lives saved, they’ll argue, make illegalization worth it.

    From what I’ve been following at Vox Nova, they would say that asking whether any lives were saved as a result of an abortion ban is at best irrelevant and at worst immoral consequentialism. To them — and hey, if Morning’s Minion or anyone else from Vox Nova is still reading, I’d love to know if I’m getting this right — the issue is whether the law reflects or conflicts with a moral principle, with no middle ground possible.

    Clearly, there is disagreement over the moral principle, but it’s interesting to note that there is also disagreement over the role of laws in a just society.

  10. Wonderful post Jill. Especially the commentary concerning the “Right To Lifers” not giving a rat’s ass about the miscarriage rate.

    Not to mention the class stratification regarding abortion accessibility. Sadly I’ve actually met women who discount both sides of the legality debate because they realize it doesn’t apply to them. Most loathsome comment ever on that was, “Seriously, why even bother? Anyone can just hop a plane and get it done anyway!”

    It didn’t even matter that the rest of those in attendance cringed. That one well educated and well off woman was so easily willing to discount the plight of millions was beyond disreality.

    Speaking of which, I’ve been making an honest attempt over that The Other Jill’s anti-abortion site and now must go take some migraine meds. What a bunch of utter batshit. Who knew that abortion was akin to female genital mutilation or stoning women??

    *sticks fork in eye and goes off to put kids to bed*

  11. I think you mean criminalized, or illegalized, the word you use throughout that I’m not sure is even a word. 🙂

    Ah you’re right, fixed! Thanks. And I”m not sure if “illegalized” is a word. My spell-checker highlights it, but I like to use it anyway…

  12. But you open the door for the fact that abortion and rape and domestic violence are the same in that they are all about control: control given to one person (or taken by that person), and control taken away from the victim. Just a thought.

    No, abortion only appears that way if you ignore the fact that a woman is involved in the process. Rape and DV are about actively hurting someone else in order to express dominance. They require direct contact with the victim and that direct contact is what makes them a crime. Abortion, on the other hand, does not necessarily require direct contact with the fetus (especially early term abortions).

    Abortion is an act of self defense, it is stopping something from using your body in a way you do not want them to use it. Sure, its about control, but it is the control of individual sovereignty. If you want to compare abortion to rape and DV, I think you have a valid comparison only if you define the fetus as the aggressor.

  13. I am completely floored to learn that fully 70% of conceptions do not implant. Wow.

    Part of the reason that I’m vehemently against abortion being criminalized is that I’m scared that, once that happens, all miscarriages will have to be investigated as possible homicides. My grandmother had 8 miscarriages between her oldest living son and my dad. This was in the 40s before the advent of that drug DES (that’s a whole ‘nother story.)

    I’ve seen a lot of herbal recipes for delayed menses in my studies as well, mostly from the 1800s. That was back in the day when a woman wasn’t considered pregnant until quickening, or when she first felt the fetus move. Before that, she simply had a delayed period.

  14. Tinah,
    That’s actually what happens in Nicaragua if you read the New York Times magazine article on the topic. Nurses and doctors have to examine the woman for signs of trauma (ie, using coat hanger or somesuch) and test her blood to make sure her miscarriage wasn’t really an abortion. They also have to report the miscarriage to some special board that investigates. If they don’t, they go to jail.
    Wouldn’t that just be lovely?

    I have to say, Matt’s blog pissed me off. In East Europe, when contraception wasn’t easily available, yes, abortion was a method of birth control. but since birth control has become more available the abortion rate in those countries has been plunging.
    And western Europe, where abortions are perfectly legal and easier to obtain than here in the US, abortion rates are the lowest — because BC is easily readily.

  15. Jill,
    I much prefer your writing when it is of this more thoughtful variety.

    A few questions though.

    In the U.S., states with higher rankings from NARAL with regards to contraception and abortion access (such as New York and California) typically have much higher abortion rates for residents than some states which NARAL gives bad grades to. How does a reproductive rights advocate explain this when prolifers are constantly being told that if we allow the preferred policies of the pro-choice advocate into law – the abortion rate will go down? Evidence from our own country shows the exact opposite.

    If a woman felt that abortion was her preferred method of birth control, would you have a moral problem with this?

    Would you find laws against drug use more comparable than laws against rape since drug use could arguably be “an act done out of perceived necessity, not out of anger or hate or a taste for hurting. It is an act done to one’s own body, usually out of a sense of self-protection and self-preservation.”

    Which prolifers have said “that it doesn’t really matter how many women die from illegal abortion?”

    There are numerous problems with Dianne’s point/comparison 1.) Not every prolifer (I would even guess the large majority) knows about the high number of embryos which don’t implant. 2.) A large percentage of embryos that fail to implant may fail to implant because of abnormalities which prevent them from ever implanting and there’s nothing medicine could do about it – Dianne’s infant comparison brings to mind that it would be possible to save these embryos 3.) you mention the whole legal killing vs. natural death factor. People of all political spectrums get much more fired up when there intentional killing vs. natural death. Maybe once prolifers can stop the intentional killing they’ll move on to the natural deaths.

    I would also ask you to stop asserting that “fertilized eggs” implant in the uterine lining. A one-celled “fertilized egg” can’t implant anywhere. Embryos which are around 100 or so cells implant in the uterine lining.

    And so I submit, once again, that anti-choicers don’t actually believe that an embryo is a human deserving of the same rights that you and I are entitled to. They see embryos as something less than born people. They’ll never admit it, but their actions speak pretty loudly.

    Even if this were true – it would do nothing to prove that embryos aren’t human beings who deserve basic rights. It would simply show that some prolifers are inconsistent. If the early abolitionists didn’t really think of slaves as human being with same rights as you and I that wouldn’t have meant slaves weren’t entitled to those rights.

    I still do not understand for the life of me why you think prolifers are out to punish women. The whole “how much time” debate displayed pretty much the exact opposite. The prolifers didn’t want to punish women with legal penalties and they hadn’t really even thought about it that much. Plus, prolifers don’t want women to have abortions (be they illegal or legal, safe or unsafe). It’s not like we want women to have illegal, unsafe abortions.

  16. Will outlawing abortion decrease the abortion rate? And does it even matter?

    It does not matter! Woman’s body, woman’s decision. It is good to have facts and data to call bullshit when it is shoveled, but quickly get back to the main point which is: Woman’s body, woman’s decision!

    All of those facts emphasize that the anti-choice position is an ideology of punishing women. When you factor in their lack of care for born people and their complete hypocrisy and logical inconsistency when it comes to defining and protecting “life,” you paint a bigger picture of a movement that is obsessed with control, not with life. You paint a picture of a movement that doesn’t actually care what the abortion rate is, so long as they can exert control over women’s lives.

    Exactly correct. Their goal is the same as rape – power and control. This point should be hammered on constantly.

  17. Laws against rape don’t stop people from raping and laws against domestic violence don’t stop wife-beating, but we still make them illegal.”

    Because they are assaults on a legal entity a BORN PERSON.

    Abortion is like these as a SUV is like a coconut tree.

    Abortion is a medical procedure. Rape and wife beating are NOT.

  18. In the U.S., states with higher rankings from NARAL with regards to contraception and abortion access (such as New York and California) typically have much higher abortion rates for residents than some states which NARAL gives bad grades to. How does a reproductive rights advocate explain this when prolifers are constantly being told that if we allow the preferred policies of the pro-choice advocate into law – the abortion rate will go down? Evidence from our own country shows the exact opposite.

    The answer’s right there in the post, Jivin’ —

    I’ve volunteered for an organization that houses low-income women coming to New York for abortions. They come from all over the country, and they’ve scraped together everything they have — everything — to pay for the procedure. They sell whatever they can. They’re willing to sleep on park benches or in Grand Central station.

  19. I think the point Dr Confused was trying to make in re control, is that denying women abortion is a form of control like rape and DV.

    Which it is.

  20. I still do not understand for the life of me why you think prolifers are out to punish women. The whole “how much time” debate displayed pretty much the exact opposite. The prolifers didn’t want to punish women with legal penalties and they hadn’t really even thought about it that much. Plus, prolifers don’t want women to have abortions (be they illegal or legal, safe or unsafe). It’s not like we want women to have illegal, unsafe abortions.

    The fact that prolifers didn’t think much about whether or not to punish women for abortion really speaks volumes about whether they really think it’s murder, wouldn’t you agree? Certainly, if I hired a hitman to kill someone, I’d be charged with murder. So why should a woman who gets an abortion be treated differently? I mean, if abortion is really murder and all.

    Actually, Jivin, the seams really show on the “pro-life” movement when you start talking about “consequences.” Yes, we all know how pregnancies happen. But acting as though abortion is some kind of avoidance of the “consequences” of having sex really comes off as punitive.

    Then there’s the generally anti-contraceptive stance. If you’re really serious about reducing the number of abortions, you’d be advocating for putting contraceptives in the drinking water.

  21. ” Plus, prolifers don’t want women to have abortions (be they illegal or legal, safe or unsafe). It’s not like we want women to have illegal, unsafe abortions.”

    But regardless of how much you “want” women to refrain from getting abortions, they won’t. They never will. Women have attempted to control their fertility since the beginning of time, and they will continue to do so.

    So by attempting to criminalize abortion, it naturally follows that yes you do want women to get illegal and unsafe abortions, b/c you are leaving that as their only option.

    By your acts, we judge you.

  22. If a woman felt that abortion was her preferred method of birth control, would you have a moral problem with this?

    No.

  23. Jill,

    what I hate about this debate is that it usually isn’t possible to have a debate only about the philosophical/medical questions without getting into the political (as opposed to policy). I like this article, as it at least attempts to do the former. That said – while I am agreeing that legal abortions are preferable to illegal abortions, as well as with that statement of yours –

    “the comparison of abortion to crime is faulty” –

    I’m a little confused that you’re not applying similar logic in the paragraph about “involuntary servitude” and “organ donorship”. These issues are just as incommensurable. Bodily autonomy is a complex issue, conception and preganancy are unique biological states and while legal analogies may help form policies, they aren’t helpful with respect to answering the philosophical questions involved.

    When does life begin? What do different answers imply about fetal rights, how to balance fetal rights with bodily autonomy. Looking at the political situaion in the US, I doubt it’s possible to have a serious debate about these issues.

    But since you are apparently in Germany currently, what do you think about the way the German constitutional court tried to balance these questions in the 1993 ruling allowing abortions in the first trimester while demanding that women attend a councelling session with social services before getting their prescription.

  24. JivinJ, dooming people to permanent life-changing consequences for accidents is something that advanced civilizations try to avoid. We don’t ban seatbelts and airbags out of concern that they encourage reckless driving, nor do we bar our children from wearing kneepads and helmets because those encourage reckless skateboarding and scootering. We don’t ban antibiotics to make people more careful about cuts, infection and hygene. We don’t ban homeowner’s insurance to make people more careful about housefires.

    So banning sensible failsafes to encourage more careful sex would be out of step with our response to risks in normal human events: indicative, in fact, that folks just have a problem with sex and want to discourage it by making the link between sex, on the one hand, and pregnancy and disease, on the other, less avoidable.

  25. “But you open the door for the fact that abortion and rape and domestic violence are the same in that they are all about control: control given to one person (or taken by that person), and control taken away from the victim. Just a thought.”

    But there is no victim in cases of abortion.

    “Part of the reason that I’m vehemently against abortion being criminalized is that I’m scared that, once that happens, all miscarriages will have to be investigated as possible homicides.”

    Or women carrying wanted pregnancies will avoid telling anyone she is pregnant and will not seek prenatal care as long as possible “just in case”. That would create some unneccesarily tragic outcomes.

    The miscarriage argument is interesting to me. I suffered a miscarriage of a very wanted pregnancy over the summer. I was about 8-10 weeks pregant when it happened, well within the first trimester when (I assume) most abortions happen.

    The weirdest thing about it was that I was actually expecting to find some sort of human-looking object in the toilet. But no, it was just like a regular period. If I’d never taken that test, I never would have know I was pregnant. (Really, how many times have I miscarried and not known it?) I mourned that loss for several days, it was was very difficult emotionally. But at the same time, it makes the anti-choice t-shirt with the fetuses sucking their thumbs seem absolutely ridiculous to me now. It just doesn’t make sense to me, having witnessed what pregnancy loss really looks like.

  26. JivinJ-

    In the U.S., states with higher rankings from NARAL with regards to contraception and abortion access (such as New York and California) typically have much higher abortion rates for residents than some states which NARAL gives bad grades to. How does a reproductive rights advocate explain this when prolifers are constantly being told that if we allow the preferred policies of the pro-choice advocate into law – the abortion rate will go down? Evidence from our own country shows the exact opposite.

    I think you’re misinterpreting what Jill and the Guttmacher study are conveying. Jill has posted another magnicifent response, so I’ll quote it for you:

    Here’s what feminists are saying: Legalized abortion is not correlated with a high abortion rate, and illegalized abortion is not correlated with a low abortion rate. A high abortion rate, however, is correlated with lack of access to contraception. Unsafe abortion is highly correlated with illegal abortion. Legality is highly correlated with safety. That is not the same thing as saying that if you outlaw abortion in a single country, the abortion rate will stay exactly the same; and yet that’s the argument that people like Soberish are arguing against.

    Reproductive freedom advocates, by definition, believe that abortion is a necessary and fundamental right. We hold that belief for a variety of reasons, and it certainly doesn’t hurt to make a multi-pronged argument, bolstered by actual evidence of what actually happens when women lack that fundamental right. We’re also pointing out that anti-choicers claim to want to lower the abortion rate, but they’re using methods that aren’t at all proven to get to their alleged goal; in fact, the only discernible purpose of their strategy is to punish women.

    Secondly:

    I still do not understand for the life of me why you think prolifers are out to punish women.

    When faced with evidence that illegal abortion does nothing but kill women, and anti-abortion activists still push for criminalizing abortion . . . well . . .

  27. JivinJ wrote:

    Which prolifers have said “that it doesn’t really matter how many women die from illegal abortion?”

    At Vox Nova in the past couple of days?

    M. Z. Forrest:

    I do not find compelling the argument we need to legalize and make safe an operation because it is unsafe when done illegally. If one believes such an operation should be legal, one should argue it be made legal on its own merits.

    Zippy:

    I don’t agree. The goal – that is to say, the goal which precedes and overrides any concern about outcomes – is to have just laws.

    It took me less than 5 minutes to find these. They have a whole topic link about the evils of consequentialism over there, so it shouldn’t be hard to find more. JivinJ, if you want people to believe that you, personally, as someone who favors outlawing abortion, do in fact believe that it matters how many women die from illegal abortion, you’ll have to prove it by articulating a position consistent with that proposition. And you’ll have to articulate that position over and over every time you meet someone new, because it would make you a surprising exception in the religious pro-life movement.

  28. Zuzu,
    You missed how I said abortion rates for residents. New York and California both have much higher abortion rates for their residents (which don’t include the women Jill has housed).

  29. You missed how I said abortion rates for residents. New York and California both have much higher abortion rates for their residents

    Where did you get that data? I couldn’t find it. The guttmacher.org data is for number of abortions performed in a state/number of women of reproductive age in the state. They’re careful to point out that this number includes non-resident women having abortions in a given state, and excludes resident women having abortions out of state.

  30. Bodily autonomy is a complex issue, conception and preganancy are unique biological states and while legal analogies may help form policies, they aren’t helpful with respect to answering the philosophical questions involved.

    No, it isn’t a complex issue. The only reason sovereignty over one’s body seems complex is because we have so many infringements. The only really valid philosophical question in the abortion debate is “does one human being have the right to use the body of another human being against their will?” It isn’t really a difficult question at all, either you believe in the concept that human beings have a right to decide how and when their bodies will be used and under what circumstance, or you don’t.

    Conception and pregnancy aren’t all that unique. They may appear unique if you’re unable to connect broader concepts, but that doesn’t make them so. Pregnancy is a fetus drawing upon the resources and body of the mother. If the mother is fine with that, then the discussion is over. If the mother object, then it is no different from any other use of another’s body in the absence of consent. A fetus might not be able to form intent in the same way that a slaver or a rapist might, but that only means the fetus would be immune from prosecution. The victim still has the right to defend themselves and do what is necessary to secure their own bodily sovereignty, even if that means killing the fetus.

  31. Johanna,
    The feminist bloggers I read have said a lot more than that regarding abortion rates and how you raise and lower them. This is one of Jill’s posts where she is good at avoiding generalities. But that’s not always the case. Your own comment proves it

    When faced with evidence that illegal abortion does nothing but kill women, and anti-abortion activists still push for criminalizing abortion

    That’s just not a serious comment. Making abortion illegal does more than “kill women.” Jill even admits the abortion rate would likely drop somewhat if abortion was made illegal in the US. Plus, even if you accept the estimates based on estimates WHO “study,” it doesn’t say making abortion illegal doesn’t reduce abortion rates. To prove that you’d need to have a country where the abortion rates stayed the same before and after legalization or illegalization. You can’t compare illegal abortion rates in poor, low contraceptive countries to legal abortion rates in rich, plenty of contraceptive countries and act like you’re comparing apples to apples.

    Cranefly,
    Both of those quotes are obviously different than Jill’s quote. Both quotes say that just because there are some bad results (women dying from illegal abortions) to making abortion illegal that doesn’t mean that’s a good argument for making abortion legal. Pro-choice philosopher Mary Warren has said basically the same exact thing. Prolifers care about how many women die from abortions (legal or illegal) – we just don’t believe the fact that some women will undergo illegal abortions (and some die as a result of it) to be a valid reason to make abortion legal.

    Hector,
    New York’s abortion ratio (# of abortions per 1000 live births) by resident counties can be found online here. To get the abortion rate (# of abortion per 1000 women aged 15-44 or 45) you have to get New York’s abortion numbers and population statistics to get 120,401 abortions for 4,119,291 women aged 15-44 (hopefully I didn’t mess up punching the numbers in to my calculator). That’s an abortion rate of 29.2 and is higher than the U.S. average and much higher than the abortion rate for places like South Dakota.

  32. William,
    Here’s a hypothetical I’d be interested in your response to – What would you do if you were a doctor and one of your patients is an unconscious women who you eventually discover to be pregnant? After talking to her close friends and reading her diary it appears this woman had no clue she was pregnant. You’re not sure if she’ll wake up before her pregnancy is too far along to perform an abortion.

    Since the woman hasn’t given consent to house the fetus (an intruder which the woman hasn’t consented to) would it be proper for you to perform an abortion and remove this intruder? If not, why not?

  33. JivinJ-

    That’s just not a serious comment.

    Okay, I was being serious, but whatever.

    I’ll rephrase: making abortion illegal may cause the abortion rate to drop slighty, but it is only then that fewer abortions occur because of legal coercion. The most important aspect of the Guttmacher study for me is that is sharply shows that where abortion is illegal, women still seek it and die at far greater rates. So by making abortion illegal, you may prevent some women from aborting by forcing them to carry to term and infringing on their first amendment rights, and many, many women will die from seeking illegal and dangerous abortions.

    Better?

    And either way, when abortion is crimalized, women are essentially “punished” by those policy. Which much of the anit-abortion movement advocates.

    Plus, even if you accept the estimates based on estimates WHO “study,” it doesn’t say making abortion illegal doesn’t reduce abortion rates. To prove that you’d need to have a country where the abortion rates stayed the same before and after legalization or illegalization. You can’t compare illegal abortion rates in poor, low contraceptive countries to legal abortion rates in rich, plenty of contraceptive countries and act like you’re comparing apples to apples.

    I’m just going to re-post that quote from Jill until it gets through:

    Here’s what feminists are saying: Legalized abortion is not correlated with a high abortion rate, and illegalized abortion is not correlated with a low abortion rate. A high abortion rate, however, is correlated with lack of access to contraception. Unsafe abortion is highly correlated with illegal abortion. Legality is highly correlated with safety. That is not the same thing as saying that if you outlaw abortion in a single country, the abortion rate will stay exactly the same; and yet that’s the argument that people like Soberish are arguing against.

  34. Here’s a hypothetical I’d be interested in your response to – What would you do if you were a doctor and one of your patients is an unconscious women who you eventually discover to be pregnant? After talking to her close friends and reading her diary it appears this woman had no clue she was pregnant. You’re not sure if she’ll wake up before her pregnancy is too far along to perform an abortion.

    Since the woman hasn’t given consent to house the fetus (an intruder which the woman hasn’t consented to) would it be proper for you to perform an abortion and remove this intruder? If not, why not?

    This is why one should always have an advanced medical directive.

  35. Zuzu,
    And your point would be?

    Of course South Dakota is going to have fewer abortion clinics than New York – it has a lot fewer people and it has a much lower demand for abortion per resident than New York.

  36. Johanna,
    Your rephrasing is a much different statement than your original comment (which basically said the opposite of what Jill said) and it is much better and more serious but I don’t see how making abortion illegal would infringe on someone’s first amendment rights.

    Did you read the Guttmacher/WHO “study?”

    Actually, having abortions in a developed country is probably more highly correlated with abortion safety than its legality. If a developing country with extremely poor health facilities legalizes abortion, abortion in that country would probably be less safe than having an illegal abortion in a developed country.

  37. Your rephrasing is a much different statement than your original comment (which basically said the opposite of what Jill said) and it is much better and more serious but I don’t see how making abortion illegal would infringe on someone’s first amendment rights.

    1) Well, the intention was the same. If “pro-lifers” criminalize abortion (right here and now in the US) women will die. That will be the outcome. Which is why (one of the many reasons) I maintain that “pro-life” policies punish women – because these policies are made without concern for women’s well-being. I’m glad you think it’s “more serious.” I still stand by my original statement however.
    2) Making abortion illegal would infringe on many people’s ability to make medical decisions in accord with their faith.
    3) I’ve read enough coverage and I stand by the Jill quote I seem to have to keep posting:

    Here’s what feminists are saying: Legalized abortion is not correlated with a high abortion rate, and illegalized abortion is not correlated with a low abortion rate. A high abortion rate, however, is correlated with lack of access to contraception. Unsafe abortion is highly correlated with illegal abortion. Legality is highly correlated with safety. That is not the same thing as saying that if you outlaw abortion in a single country, the abortion rate will stay exactly the same; and yet that’s the argument that people like Soberish are arguing against.

    My original post was responding to two seperate questions/statements, and you are trying to make them into one. My comment on “when faced with the evidence . . .” was not in regards to this Guttmacher study specifically. There is so much evidence out there, studies and anectdotes, that even when abortion is illegal, women still seek it and are more likely to die a grisly death than when they have access to safe and legal abortions. I’m not arguing about abortion rates, I’m arguing about how much women’s lives are valued.

    Here’s another good post. I agree with that one too. Yay Jill (and zuzu too).

  38. William,
    Here’s a hypothetical I’d be interested in your response to – What would you do if you were a doctor and one of your patients is an unconscious women who you eventually discover to be pregnant? After talking to her close friends and reading her diary it appears this woman had no clue she was pregnant. You’re not sure if she’ll wake up before her pregnancy is too far along to perform an abortion.

    Since the woman hasn’t given consent to house the fetus (an intruder which the woman hasn’t consented to) would it be proper for you to perform an abortion and remove this intruder? If not, why not?

    Johanna beat me to the punch when it comes to medical directives and powers of attorney. Your hypothetical fails before it even begins. If I was a doctor I would follow the orders of whoever held medical power of attorney over my patient. Period.

    Still there was something interesting in your question. You immediately assumed that, as a doctor, I had the right to make that decision. Moreover, you assumed that in the course of making my decision I had the right to break confidentiality and invade the privacy of my patient. Its telling that, in order to make a point, you posed an extremely unlikely hypothetical that infantalized the woman in question. Its like you read my post and the first thing that sprang to your mind was “well, what if the woman can’t make a choice?” Pregnant or not, if I woke up from a coma to find out my doctor had been discussing my medical status with anyone other than my next of kin my first call would be to a lawyer followed closely by calls to the local licensing body and the local AMA ethics board.

    Allow me to counter with my own hypothetical. Suppose you’re a judge and a case comes before you. Bob invited Joe over for dinner, Joe accepted, and the dinner that Bob cooked accidentally gave Joe food poisoning. Bob did everything in his power to prepare the food correctly, but Joe still got sick. As a result of the food poisoning Joe’s kidneys fail, he needs a transplant or he is going to die. After some discussion, Joe finds out that Bob is a perfect match. Unfortunately, Bob has second thoughts and decides that he doesn’t want to give up a kidney. Does Joe have a right to Bob’s kidney?

  39. 1.) Not every prolifer (I would even guess the large majority) knows about the high number of embryos which don’t implant. 2.) A large percentage of embryos that fail to implant may fail to implant because of abnormalities which prevent them from ever implanting and there’s nothing medicine could do about it – Dianne’s infant comparison brings to mind that it would be possible to save these embryos 3.) you mention the whole legal killing vs. natural death factor. People of all political spectrums get much more fired up when there intentional killing vs. natural death. Maybe once prolifers can stop the intentional killing they’ll move on to the natural deaths.

    Hi Jivin.

    1. Yeah, biology education in the US is quite poor, isn’t it. Not their fault. However, once they know that a large number of embryos never implant…

    2. You’re right that quite a large number of the pre-implanation failures are due to embryonic abnormalities. However…
    a. A significant percentage of embryos (20% IIRC) that fail to implant don’t have obvious abnormalities. Maybe they have subtle problems that we don’t know about or maybe they had bad luck. Without further research, who knows?
    b. We can’t save these embryos…yet. That’s why I suggested a massive research project into uncovering why and how they fail, not simply an improved public health system. It may be a difficult problem, but I see no reason to believe that it is an inherently insoluble one any more than my hypothetical pandemic would be.
    c. (Pushing the emotional buttons…) So they’ve got abnormalities? Are you saying that people who are sick aren’t people? Down syndrome kids have major chromosomal abnormalities too, wouldn’t you object to an induced abortion because of DS? Then why so caviler about a spontaneous abortion, maybe also due to DS or a similar disorder?

    3. Does the anti-abortion movement call itself anti-murder or pro-life? If all it is concerned about is the “murder” of embryos/fetuses maybe it should change its name…the current one confuses literalists like me who expect people who claim to be pro-life to be interested in saving lives no matter whether they are threatened by a person or a virus or a stray gamma ray.

    Apart from the name issue, I am quite astonished by the idea that one can only be interested in “natural” death or intentional killing, not both at the same time. I am concerned about people being killed in Iraq, but that doesn’t stop me from also worrying about people who die of cryptogenic stroke, leukemia, or solid tumors. Furthermore, I can even work on both concerns at once. I write letters to Congress, go to protests, and perform physical exams on refugees to provide documentation of their being abused (and therefore at risk) in their home countries. I also spend time researching the causes of malignancy and trying to find ways to stop it. So, why can’t a person both worry about spontaneous abortion and induced abortion, if he or she believes that babies are dying both ways? Finally, IMHO, if every fertilized egg is a person, then I’d worry more about the pandemic killing most of them than the relatively small number of instances of infanticide. But then again, I don’t like death–in any form, not just homicide.

  40. JivinJ

    Both of those quotes are obviously different than Jill’s quote.

    They may seem different to you, but not obviously so. Both of them are rejections of consequentialism; both of them state that the harm done by illegal abortions is irrelevant to whether or not abortion should be illegal. In other words, as far as legislation is concerned, “it doesn’t really matter how many women die from illegal abortion.”

    There is no way for you to make this not mean what it means — the very act of considering how many women might die as a result of outlawing abortion is consequentialist.

  41. William,
    You’re dodging the hypothetical. That’s unfortunate. It wasn’t supposed to be entirely realistic – often hypotheticals aren’t realistic. What would you do if she doesn’t have any advanced directive and hasn’t given anyone the medical power of attorney.

    But if someone did have medical power of attorney and they wanted you to provide an abortion, you would do so?

    Actually, when I read your previous comment. It seemed to me that you believe pregnancy isn’t a prima facie good, but a prima facie bad which can only be good if a woman consents to it. If the woman in this scenario hasn’t consented to the pregnancy, it would seem that your position (or at least the one I think you seem to hold) would require you to eliminate the intruder fetus. But to me it would seem horrible to abort a pregnancy in this situation.

    I would say no to the answer in your hypothetical. I would also say that Bob doesn’t have the right to intentionally kill Joe. I’m also wondering if the situation changes if Bob is Joe’s father?

    If we’re going all Judith Jarvis Thompson and assuming for abortion should be legal even if the unborn have basic rights a more comparable hypothetical would be this: A mother takes her newborn daughter to a winter cabin for a peaceful vacation. A large snow storm hits, trapping mother and child in the cabin. The cabin is stocked with plenty of food and beverages for the mother but the baby’s supply of formula quickly runs out. Does the mother have a responsibility to breast feed the child and provide for the child’s needs? Or would you deem it alright for the mother to no longer care for the child because of her desire for bodily autonomy and her desire not to breastfeed?

  42. Of course South Dakota is going to have fewer abortion clinics than New York – it has a lot fewer people and it has a much lower demand for abortion per resident than New York.

    Effect and cause can be tricky. Since I am neither living in New York nor South Dakota I will just assume that 9 out of 10 women in NY can afford to have an abortion because it takes them a bus ride to the clinic and back while 9 out of 10 women in SD would have to get a week of from their job, drive for a day to the clinic in a borrowed car, stay in a motel and rest there for a day before driving back all the way. And then they haven’t even explained to their neighbours why they’re going away.

  43. William,
    You’re dodging the hypothetical. That’s unfortunate. It wasn’t supposed to be entirely realistic – often hypotheticals aren’t realistic. What would you do if she doesn’t have any advanced directive and hasn’t given anyone the medical power of attorney.

    In the absence of an advanced directive I would follow the wishes of the next of kin. In the absence of that I would do whatever was necessary to improve the status of my patient and get her conscious. If those treatments were going to be dangerous to the fetus, then so be it. Thats as close of an answer as I can give, given that I am trained in psychological ethics rather than medical.

    Actually, when I read your previous comment. It seemed to me that you believe pregnancy isn’t a prima facie good, but a prima facie bad which can only be good if a woman consents to it. If the woman in this scenario hasn’t consented to the pregnancy, it would seem that your position (or at least the one I think you seem to hold) would require you to eliminate the intruder fetus. But to me it would seem horrible to abort a pregnancy in this situation.

    To me, pregnancy is neutral. It is neither good nor bad, kind of like having blue eyes or curly hair. The moment a woman becomes aware of her pregnancy it becomes an issue of sovereignty, and she either consents to remain pregnant or does not. In the absence of consent you care for the human being rather than the fetus. Ending the pregnancy in the situation you outlined would be purely contextual. Does that clear things up a bit?

    I would say no to the answer in your hypothetical. I would also say that Bob doesn’t have the right to intentionally kill Joe. I’m also wondering if the situation changes if Bob is Joe’s father?

    By not donating a kidney, Bob is intentionally killing Joe. I can see the point you’re trying to make, that abortion is an active action whereas Bob’s action is more passive. Lets change the scenario then. You’re a judge, Bob invited Joe over for dinner. After the dinner there was a freak snowstorm, conditions outside would ensure anyone forced to leave shelter would die. The storm lasts some time and as time goes on Joe becomes an increasingly irritating guest. At first he just causes Bob some discomfort, but ultimately he endangers Bob’s health and life with his continued presence and behavior. Does Bob have the right to throw him out into the street? If Bob won’t leave willingly, does Joe have the right to use force? What if the only way he can get Bob out the door is to kill him? Lets say Joe wasn’t invited but broke in one day, does that change things?

  44. If we’re going all Judith Jarvis Thompson and assuming for abortion should be legal even if the unborn have basic rights a more comparable hypothetical would be this: A mother takes her newborn daughter to a winter cabin for a peaceful vacation. A large snow storm hits, trapping mother and child in the cabin. The cabin is stocked with plenty of food and beverages for the mother but the baby’s supply of formula quickly runs out. Does the mother have a responsibility to breast feed the child and provide for the child’s needs? Or would you deem it alright for the mother to no longer care for the child because of her desire for bodily autonomy and her desire not to breastfeed?

    Sorry about this being another post, but I accidentally hit the submit button early.

    In that scenario, I’d be torn. My thinking would be that the mother would have to breastfeed the infant because, by carrying to term and then taking custody of the child after the birth, she committed to provide parental care. In this hypothetical the mother took several direct actions which made her responsible for the care of a human being. Prior to birth, a fetus isn’t a human being. Even if it was, the mother hasn’t been given a choice in it’s existence and the issue of competing rights comes into play.

  45. The cabin is stocked with plenty of food and beverages for the mother but the baby’s supply of formula quickly runs out. Does the mother have a responsibility to breast feed the child and provide for the child’s needs? Or would you deem it alright for the mother to no longer care for the child because of her desire for bodily autonomy and her desire not to breastfeed?

    Um, maybe my knowledge of female anatomy with regards to breast milk is incomplete, but it’s my understanding that if you don’t use it, it goes away.

    Which means that any mother who wasn’t breastfeeeding at least a little bit in the first place would not have breast milk to begin with. So, we’re not talking about a mother who refuses to make a small sacrifice to save her child’s life. JivinJ is suggesting that a mother would stop making the same choice she has been making all along just so that JivinJ can make up a hypothetical situation.

    Thus, this isn’t just a hypothetical situation, but a stupid, illogical hypothetical that comes from the minds of people who think that women are aliens.

  46. William,

    Conception and pregnancy aren’t all that unique. They may appear unique if you’re unable to connect broader concepts, but that doesn’t make them so. … Pregnancy is a fetus drawing upon the resources and body of the mother. If the mother is fine with that, then the discussion is over. If the mother object, then it is no different from any other use of another’s body in the absence of consent. A fetus might not be able to form intent in the same way that a slaver or a rapist might, but that only means the fetus would be immune from prosecution. The victim still has the right to defend themselves and do what is necessary to secure their own bodily sovereignty, even if that means killing the fetus.

    Well, yeah. If you think of a fetus as some kind of virus, sure. Then you win that argument. On the other hand, I don’t think you’d want to claim that, because a fetus simply is not some kind of virus. If it were, we would not be having this discussion. In fact, no one would be having this discussion. If you can’t see that, then I’m not sure you should be the one to tell me I’m claiming that conception and pregancy are unique states just because I’m “unable to connect to broader concepts…

  47. Original quote: But you open the door for the fact that abortion and rape and domestic violence are the same in that they are all about control: control given to one person (or taken by that person), and control taken away from the victim.

    “So control over one’s own body is the same as attempts to violently assert power over someone else? Sorry, not buying it.”

    Yes, asserting power/control of the human being inside of one’s own body is exactly the same as asserting power over someone else.

    “No, abortion only appears that way if you ignore the fact that a woman is involved in the process. Rape and DV are about actively hurting someone else in order to express dominance. They require direct contact with the victim and that direct contact is what makes them a crime. Abortion, on the other hand, does not necessarily require direct contact with the fetus (especially early term abortions).”

    In legal arenas you may have a point, depending on if you are arguing in civil or criminal court. The point, however, is that all three are rooted in the same concept of control. If DV and rape are looked at from the roots up, they are about control. Are you arguing that they are not? If they are only about direct contact then the feminist movement has much further to go than I thought.

    “Abortion is an act of self defense, it is stopping something from using your body in a way you do not want them to use it. Sure, its about control, but it is the control of individual sovereignty. If you want to compare abortion to rape and DV, I think you have a valid comparison only if you define the fetus as the aggressor.”

    Stopping something? A way you do not want them to use it? Decide whether or not the fetus is a person, then make a statement. If fetuses are “them,” then you do not have the right to kill “them” for using your body. In cases of rape, slavery, and other such horrors I know that many people wish that victims have the right to kill the offender…but victims do not have that right. Ask most of the women incarcerated in the US.

    “Abortion is a medical procedure. Rape and wife beating are NOT.”

    Euthanasia is a medical procedure but we still aren’t allowed to do it.

    “But there is no victim in cases of abortion.”

    Are we forgetting there is a life involved here other than the mother’s? I guess we’ve just struck upon the most fundamental conflict in the entire debate. Also: if the fetus is a life, and I maintain that it is, then there should be consideration of the father of the child. Yes, a mother can say she doesn’t know who or where the father is, but when attempting to take guardianship and/or custody of a born child notification must be made, either by service or by publication, to the biological father, even if he has made no legal claim to the child. Is it truly just the woman’s body we are talking about, because I don’t think it is fair for a woman to be able to abort a child without at least consideration for the father.

  48. “The weirdest thing about it was that I was actually expecting to find some sort of human-looking object in the toilet. But no, it was just like a regular period. If I’d never taken that test, I never would have know I was pregnant. (Really, how many times have I miscarried and not known it?) I mourned that loss for several days, it was was very difficult emotionally. But at the same time, it makes the anti-choice t-shirt with the fetuses sucking their thumbs seem absolutely ridiculous to me now. It just doesn’t make sense to me, having witnessed what pregnancy loss really looks like.”

    Have you seen what human flesh looks like when it is burned? It makes ashes, as if it were newspaper. Do you know what human “gray matter” looks like when blown from the body by a firearm or smashed against concrete after an automobile accident? It looks like thick, clotted blood- like a heavy period. Doesn’t make it any less human.

    “mother hasn’t been given a choice in it’s existence”

    I would like to see the statistics on how many aborted pregnancies were the result of forced sexual action against the mother, just to see if such a broad statement as this should actually be legitimate. I would also like to know who of [the human race] was given a choice in his or her existence? In this line of reasoning I would assume that all of these arguments may be applied in matters of suicide, assisted suicide, wearing seatbelts, and riding in the back of a truck. (Please avoid any “you know what assuming does” comments and just explain to me the difference).

  49. In that scenario, I’d be torn. My thinking would be that the mother would have to breastfeed the infant because, by carrying to term and then taking custody of the child after the birth, she committed to provide parental care. In this hypothetical the mother took several direct actions which made her responsible for the care of a human being. Prior to birth, a fetus isn’t a human being. Even if it was, the mother hasn’t been given a choice in it’s existence and the issue of competing rights comes into play.

    Fine, then suppose you are a breastfeeding mother and you find yourself in a situation where you are trapped with a baby that is not your own. The only way to keep the baby alive is to breastfeed it. I think it is pretty clear that you have a responsibility, even though you didn’t have a choice about the existence of that child, and even though you haven’t taken on any parental responsibilities. Do you disagree, William? At any rate, these issues are clearly complex.

  50. I know this isn’t the point of the post, but I just want to debunk the myth that lactation is impossible if it doesn’t start days after birth. Relactation is entirely plausible (especially if the baby is young), can take place quite rapidly, and is a key aspect of the World Health Organisation and American Academy of Pediatrics strategies for infant feeding in disaster situations. Refs in section 3 here.

  51. William,
    So then you’d provide an abortion to a women if that’s what her next of kin wants (having no clue what the woman wants)? I guess that makes sense if you view a fetus as an unintentional rapist or slaver. I don’t think it makes sense if you view pregnancy as neutral.

    Bob is not intentionally killing Joe by not donating his kidney. That’s like saying I’m intentionally killing someone by not donating one of my kidneys.

    Bob’s health and life with his continued presence and behavior.

    The problem with this scenario is it assumes that every fetus is endangering a woman’s life and health and the only response to this endangerment is to kill Joe (the fetus) when in reality pregnancy doesn’t typically endanger a woman’s life or health (my wife is quite healthy in her 30th week) and when it does there are typically other alternatives than killing the fetus.

    What’s really interesting is that there was actually a court case fairly similar to this which is referenced by John Noonan (a prolifer who used to be on 9th Circuit Ct.). A family of farmers in Minnesota refused to allow a man they had over for dinner to remain overnight at their house. The man, Orlando Depue, was sick and fainted but the farmers (the Flateaus) kicked him to the curb on a cold night. Depue lost some fingers to frost bite and eventually won a liability case against the Flateaus.

    Lets say Joe wasn’t invited but broke in one day, does that change things?

    That assumes the fetus has the conscious ability to “break in” and that it’s the fetus’ fault that it implanted. It also assumes that the womb isn’t the natural environment for the fetus – which is wrong because we all know what happens to fetus if she is removed from her natural environment.

    Prior to birth, a fetus isn’t a human being. Even if it was, the mother hasn’t been given a choice in it’s existence and the issue of competing rights comes into play.

    Besides the fact you’re simply incorrect about a fetus not being a human being before birth (take a gander at an embryology textbook) – your position here in comments has been that a woman has bodily autonomy even if the entity is a human being (which is why you used the Joe and Bob scenario). If you want to argue the reason abortion should be legal is because the unborn are human beings, that’s fine, but you can’t make one argument which, for the sake of argument, assumes the unborn have basic rights (like Joe) and then abandon that position when I provide a hypothetical which shows you don’t believe in a woman’s complete right to bodily autonomy in some circumstances (when she takes actions which you believe make her responsible for the care of a child).

    Mickle,
    Avoiding a hypothetical because you don’t like the hypothetical or because you think there’s something wrong with how real it is, that’s typically a sure sign the hypothetical makes a good point. But let’s change it to fight your problems with it. Let’s say the mother has been using a breast pump because she finds direct breast feeding to be quite onerous. So she has milk but the breast pump is in her car and she can’t reach it currently. Is that better? Your response in this scenario would be?

  52. Dianne,
    I actually wouldn’t have a problem (I’d think it be a good idea) with research into finding out ways to prevent pre-implantation miscarriages. I doubt other prolifers would either.

    So they’ve got abnormalities? Are you saying that people who are sick aren’t people? Down syndrome kids have major chromosomal abnormalities too, wouldn’t you object to an induced abortion because of DS?

    From my understanding the abnormalities would prevent them from implanting. So I don’t see how their natural (and seemingly unpreventable) deaths are comparable to intentionally killing sick people or aborting unborn children with DS. I’m not saying they’re not valuable human beings – I’m pointing out there’s a difference between intentionally killing human beings and seemingly unpreventable natural deaths.

    3. Does the anti-abortion movement call itself anti-murder or pro-life?

    Well, the same charge could be leveled against the pro-choice movement which does hardly anything to promote adoption or helping women keep their child (unless it involves other liberal causes they agree with). We all know the names movements call themselves aren’t supposed to be some exact descriptions of their policies positions but rather short, nice-sounding slogans which give a very basic summation.

    Apart from the name issue, I am quite astonished by the idea that one can only be interested in “natural” death or intentional killing, not both at the same time.

    I’m not sure where you pulled that strawman from. I’m certainly interested in both preventing intentional killings and preventing preventable natural death. The prolife movement is focused on intentional killings. Do you think other organizations focused on intentional killings should also preventable natural deaths? Are you calling for the anti-death penalty organizations to put their funds into cancer research? Are you calling on organizations trying to prevent the genocide in Sudan to speak out more about leukemia?

    Probably not. Is it only the prolife movement which is fake, hypocritical or whatever because they have a specific focus and stick to it?

  53. Hayley said:

    Stopping something? A way you do not want them to use it? Decide whether or not the fetus is a person, then make a statement. If fetuses are “them,” then you do not have the right to kill “them” for using your body.

    “They” is used both for animate and inanimate object. For example “The books are on the shelf. They belong to my mother.” Calling fetuses “they” does not make them people anymore than calling books “they” makes books people.

  54. “Avoiding a hypothetical because you don’t like the hypothetical or because you think there’s something wrong with how real it is, that’s typically a sure sign the hypothetical makes a good point.”

    So….let’s say all the oxygen in the air disappeared……….

    “Let’s say the mother has been using a breast pump because she finds direct breast feeding to be quite onerous. So she has milk but the breast pump is in her car and she can’t reach it currently. Is that better? Your response in this scenario would be?”

    That you are completely crazy. And still know less than I do about breastfeeding (which is really sad considering how little I know). If she’s been using a pump, she can find other ways to feed her baby with her milk even without the pump and without actually breastfeeding, in the extremely unlikely scenario that any woman who is using only a pump (again, unlikely) would refuse to breastfeed in an emergency (yes, because people generally become less generous in disaster situations – especially parents toward their children /sarcasm).

    Lauredhel, I followed the link, but couldn’t find any info on how long breast milk is generally available after the mother stops breastfeeding. Do you have any idea? Cuz I find that really fascinating.

  55. It seemed to me that you believe pregnancy isn’t a prima facie good, but a prima facie bad which can only be good if a woman consents to it.

    I know it’s amazing to pro-forced-birthers, but in fact, what the woman wants is the deciding factor in whether or not pregnancy is a good thing or a bad thing. In that way it is very similar to someone putting his penis inside a woman’s vagina–whether that action is good or bad depends entirely on whether or not the woman wants it to happen.

    I also find it laughable that pro-forced-birthers have to concoct these incredibly unbelievable scenarios to justify their position. A lactating woman is trapped in a cabin with an infant not her own while a blizzard rages outside? Really? Has this ever happened? Where, precisely, is her child? Where are the parents of the alien infant? Why isn’t her cell phone working? What on earth possessed her to take strange baby and go off to an isolated cabin in the middle of winter without any formula, bottles, baby food, water? Do you really think that women are that stupid? You do know that if a lactating woman doesn’t nurse for a given amount of time her breasts become quite painful and she runs the risk of mastitis? Are you actually advocating for a law in which a lactating woman is required to provide her breasts for any infant nearby that happens to be hungry? What if there’s no food in the cabin, and the woman will starve to death unless she eats the baby? Lactating women simply do not abscond to cabins in the middle of winter with other people’s nursing infants. People with babies can barely leave the house without a tote bag’s worth of crap that they might need.

    I tell you what, I refuse to take this scenario seriously, because unlike the very common situation of a woman dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, it would never happen.

  56. Let’s say the mother has been using a breast pump because she finds direct breast feeding to be quite onerous.

    You really know nothing about nursing, do you? Pumping is less efficient than direct nursing–the baby’s suction is far more effective and thus takes less time, which means that pumping is far more onerous than directing nursing. I have never evenheard of a woman who uses pumping as anything other than a necessary supplement. Women who don’t want to breastfeed use formula. That’s what it’s for.

  57. Avoiding a hypothetical because you don’t like the hypothetical or because you think there’s something wrong with how real it is, that’s typically a sure sign the hypothetical makes a good point.

    Let’s say that aliens landed and threatened to shoot me into space without a spacesuit unless you personally paid for ten women’s abortions. Would you do it?

    More importantly, who cares? It’s never going to happen, so there’s no point formulating policy around it. It’s a meaningless question and has no impact on real life at all.

  58. I’m not sure where you pulled that strawman from.

    From your previous statement:

    Maybe once prolifers can stop the intentional killing they’ll move on to the natural deaths.

    That certainly implies that, whatever your personal opinions, you believe that the pro-life movement itself concentrates and, perhaps, should concentrate only on preventing abortion, not on preventing embryonic and fetal deaths from other causes.

  59. As long as there are a fair number of pro-lifers still reading, I’ll repeat an idea I previously proposed on Vox:

    Most ectopic pregnancies are death sentences for the embryo and, unless there is medical intervention, for the mother. However, abdominal pregnancies, in which the embryo implants on the intestinal lining, are sometimes viable. So…men have intestines and therefore could, potentially, carry an abdominal pregnancy intentionally implanted there to term. Would anyone here agree to carry a “snowflake baby”, that is, a blastulocyte that was created for artificial insemination but not used, in his abdomen, if the alternative were that the cells would be discarded, made into a stem cell line, or left to slowly disintegrate in the -70 freezer? Would you agree only if the concept were proven and proven essentially as safe as a woman’s pregnancy? Would you agree to be a first experimental subject?

    I got no answer from the Vox crowd to this query, possibly because, in a moment of over-enthusiasm, I added, Because if you are interested, I could probably get in touch with some fertility specialists and start a protocol…If I were a suspicious woman I would suspect that this movement from the strictly theoretical to the possibly real alarmed the men there into not responding, but perhaps they had other reasons. Jivin, have you spotted why it’s an empty promise or threat? And, perhaps, why the emptiness of the promise/threat suggests that very few people really believe in the personhood of the embryo?

  60. f it were, we would not be having this discussion. In fact, no one would be having this discussion. If you can’t see that, then I’m not sure you should be the one to tell me I’m claiming that conception and pregancy are unique states just because I’m “unable to connect to broader concepts…

    I do so love the bare assertion fallacy, especially when you’ve paired it with an appeal to ridicule. Its interesting how you misrepresented my argument, then refused to argue either what I’d actually said or the straw man you’d built. Now, I’ve state my position and I’ve explained it. If you want to challenge it, thats fine, I’m more than happy to engage in a discussion. If you want to be dismissive and argue in bad faith, you can do it alone.

  61. In legal arenas you may have a point, depending on if you are arguing in civil or criminal court. The point, however, is that all three are rooted in the same concept of control.

    Yes, but abortion is about control of one’s own body. Rape and DV are about someone attempting to control someone else’s body. I know, the fetus has a body, what about the fetus, why won’t someone please think of the fetus? The fetus doesn’t really factor into the discussion because, in the case of an abortion, it is the aggressor, it is using the body of a human being without that human being’s consent. If a fetus is a human, than were talking about assault and you certainly have the right to use deadly force to stop an assault on your person. If the fetus isn’t a person then, legally, its no different from killing a rat thats made it into your home.

    Stopping something? A way you do not want them to use it? Decide whether or not the fetus is a person, then make a statement. If fetuses are “them,” then you do not have the right to kill “them” for using your body. In cases of rape, slavery, and other such horrors I know that many people wish that victims have the right to kill the offender…but victims do not have that right. Ask most of the women incarcerated in the US.

    You’re going to go after my grammar? Ok, show me a good plural for the word “it” and I’ll use it. If you were describing a pack of wolves, what plural pronoun would you use? Still, my pronoun usage aside, you’re simply wrong. People do have the right to use deadly force to protect themselves or others from an assault. The reason many women are in prison is because we have courts and juries that still haven’t caught up to the radical idea that women are people and have the same rights to defend themselves from violence as men. Proving a rape in court is tough, if you shoot a rapist in the act of rape and but can’t prove a rape happened then the courts see it as murder. Thats a problem with the courts, not an indictment of the concept of self defense.

    Euthanasia is a medical procedure but we still aren’t allowed to do it.

    Consent, person, blah blah blah. I’m sure you can build my response from there…

    Are we forgetting there is a life involved here other than the mother’s? I guess we’ve just struck upon the most fundamental conflict in the entire debate.

    Not really. The idea that a fetus is the same as a human isn’t really enshrined in our law or our culture. Personhood is defined in English common law as happening at birth. People get birth certificates instead of conception certificates. Public aid is only offered to things outside of a womb. Up until very recently (and still in many states) killing a pregnant woman was one charge of murder. We celebrate birthdays. You’re fighting for a radical re-interpretation of the law, I’m arguing from the same position as the founders.

    I would like to see the statistics on how many aborted pregnancies were the result of forced sexual action against the mother, just to see if such a broad statement as this should actually be legitimate.

    Consent to sex is not consent to conception, but go ahead with the slut shaming if it makes yo feel morally superior.

  62. JivinJ : To answer your original hypothetical: yes. In the unlikely event that I had a comatose pregnant patient who had no advanced directives, no knowledge that she was pregnant, no likelyhood of recovering from the coma within the next nine months, that the pregnancy threatened the health or welfare of the mother (i.e. was not elective, as I don’t believe next of kin can consent to elective surgery without an advanced directive), and the next of kin requested an abortion, I’d have no moral or ethical problems performing it.

    Depue lost some fingers to frost bite and eventually won a liability case against the Flateaus.

    Was it a bench or a jury trial?

    That assumes the fetus has the conscious ability to “break in” and that it’s the fetus’ fault that it implanted.

    Ok, lets address that. Lets say Joe has a psychotic break. During the episode he attacks his best friend Bob with a kitchen knife. Joe is certainly not guilty by reason of insanity because he cannot from intent, just as the fetus can’t form intent. Should Bob be able to defend himself from Joe, or should he just wait until Joe chooses to stop the attack and hope he isn’t fatally wounded in the process?

    Besides the fact you’re simply incorrect about a fetus not being a human being before birth (take a gander at an embryology textbook) – your position here in comments has been that a woman has bodily autonomy even if the entity is a human being (which is why you used the Joe and Bob scenario).

    Legal status as a human being and medical status as a human being are not equal. My stance is that a fetus being a human being doesn’t really matter because the rights lie with the woman. As a result, I have shifted back and forth to show my basic stance is effected by the personhood or nonpersonhood of the fetus. The reason I have done that is to show that, regardless of the status of a fetus, my support of abortion on demand does not change.

    Let me put it another way. If a fetus is not a person then it has no rights and this discussion is irrelevant. If a fetus is a person, then it might have some rights and an ethical principle must be found to mediate the competing rights of theoretical human and the mother.

  63. It’s really great to hear someone else taking this up. I’ve been honking “pro-lifer” Bozo noses about miscarriage ever since one panicked evening when my partner miscarried with our first, very much wanted pregnancy and none of the “crisis pregnancy” hotlines we called (after calling our local healthcare providers) had anything nice, let alone helpful, to say at all.

    Nothing like hearing someone say “sir, we’re a *pro-life* group, we don’t have anything to do with miscarriage” to confirm that they’re merely anti-abortion, anti-women, and anti-sex, and that they don’t actually give a shit about the “unborn.”

    I might add that (if it wasn’t obvious from arguments in comments here) that “pro-lifers” hate discussion of miscarriage the way vampires hate garlic and muggers hate mace. It pushes them out of their little cocoons of sanctimony and, once out, there’s no solid, unequivocal, unconditional ground for them to stand on.

    Anyway I’m really excited to hear there’s someone else throwing this back in the anti-choice/anti-abortionist’s faces. If they’re going to hide under the “pro-life” rock then they need to be confronted, and made to expend resources on, miscarriage and stillbirth. If instead they have to crawl out from under that rock we’ll see what generally lives under any rock: disgustingly slimy, ugly, and surprisingly small creatures.

    figleaf

  64. “As far as I can tell, there is not a single organization dedicated to ending pre-implantation “miscarriages.””

    As far as I can tell there are no “pro-life” affiliated organizations dedicated to *post* implantation miscarriages and stillbirths either. Which makes sense when you think about it since all “pro-life” groups are merely anti-abortion and thus unwilling to waste time or resources on what, as far as they’re concerned, is a useless distraction.

    figleaf

  65. Dianne,
    Organizations which have specific goals typically do better at accomplishing goals than organization hoping to accomplish everything. You didn’t tell me whether you thought anti-death penalty organization should allocate resources to fight cancer. Is the prolife movement the only movement which must meet your standards?

    Your strawman was that I thought “that one can only be interested in “natural” death or intentional killing, not both at the same time” not that I thought it made sense for the prolife movement to focus on intentional killings.

    Regarding the Vox blog, if you start coming to conclusions about a whole movement based on people on a blog not responding to you then you are getting more than a little paranoid.

    EG,

    I also find it laughable that pro-forced-birthers have to concoct these incredibly unbelievable scenarios to justify their position

    Did you miss William’s hypothetical to justify his position? In arguments, people come up with hypotheticals quite often. Sometimes they aren’t very realistic. That you seem to be uncomfortable with this says more about you than it does about any hypothetical. Your responses are so childish, it’s almost like I struck a nerve or something.

    Mickle,
    Another avoidance? Gee, I’m crazy because you can’t answer a hypothetical?

  66. Besides the fact you’re simply incorrect about a fetus not being a human being before birth (take a gander at an embryology textbook)

    An embryology textbook would pretty much tell you that a fetus is really not a person in any meaningful sense and an embryo certainly isn’t, any more than the body of a brain dead person is still a person, even if its heart is still beating.

    This brings up what is, in my opinion, a major logical problem with the “pro-life” position: If “personhood” (whatever that is, exactly) starts at conception then abortion is just one of the things we, as a society are doing wrong–badly wrong.

    The worst thing we are doing wrong is, of course, ignoring the pandemic killing as many as 70% of the population. We’ve gone over this already so I’ll just add that I don’t find Jivin’s comment, “From my understanding the abnormalities would prevent them from implanting.” to be disingenuous. First, we don’t really know why these implantation (and very early post-implantation) failures occur. Some of them occur in apparently normal embryos. Second, so what if it is the anomolies that prevent their implantion? Chromosomal anomolies are not supernatural entities beyond the ability of humanity to alter. A good deal of time, money, and effort would be needed to work out how to save these “babies”, but if you really believe that they are babies, wouldn’t it be worth it? Wouldn’t the founding of the National Institute for Prevention of Miscarriages be worth a 50% tax increase? Wouldn’t it be worth de-funding the rest of the NIH to have more funds available to work on this problem? Medical research tends to focus on diseases that cause high numbers of deaths, diseases that cause particularly early deaths, and diseases of particular emotional appeal. A pandemic killing the majority of babies is all of those. So where’s the outrage that the NIPM doesn’t exist? Where’s the demand for funding?

    But that’s not the only problem. One other is that we’re doing in vitro fertilization all wrong. We should simply be fertilizing one oocyte at a time, not doing a bunch at once and freezing the excess. Ok, so the oocyte collection is the dangerous and expensive part of the procedure and more women will die in the collection and fewer will be able to afford it at all. How bad is that compared to allowing babies to slowly rot?

    We’re also defining “death” wrong. Clearly, if an entity that has no neurons or differentiated cells is “alive” then “death” can not be what occurs when the brain ceases irreversibly. The proper definition must be “when the last cell dies.” Because, if one cell makes a person then that person must be alive until the last cell dies. No code declarations are probably out, because they are made by the brain and the intestines, lungs, and liver may not agree. Got to full press every person until no cells are left. How one even proves that in order to declare, I’m not sure, but that’s a technical detail.

    Human cell culture lines are pretty questionable as well. If a single cell can be a person then a cell line derived from a single cell or a small collection of cells is…what? Of course, cell lines are “immortalized” by a number of means, so one can get away with claiming that existing cell lines are ok, not human anymore because of the EBV addition (or whatever). But making new ones, even new lines from adult cells, is pretty iffy.

    Likewise, surgery, cancer treatment, and any other treatment that kills human cells is pretty questionable. The same cells, frozen in G0 and cloned, could become people. So aren’t they already? How are they different from fertilized eggs?

    I”ve probably left out some implications. The point is, pro-life or pro-choice, really acts like they think that fertilized eggs are people. So what’s with the claim that they are?

  67. William,

    If you want to be dismissive and argue in bad faith, you can do it alone.

    Interesting – and I’m serious here – that’s exactly how I read your reply. Well, let’s give it another try. You’ve made your point, but your point does require the logical equivalence of a fetus and a malignant parasite (and a non-malignant parasite in case the mother consents to her exploitation). The difference between a parasite and a fetus, however, regardless of their dependence on the host’s life support system, is that the fetus is not part of a disease. Pregancy, wether desired or not, is not a disease, it’s a necessary element of human procreation. But then, we can also define life as a 100% lethal sexually transmitted disease… it just doesn’t make much sense (to me).

  68. So what’s with the claim that they are?

    A bad-faith appeal to emotion designed to con moderates who think babies are cute into using the law to enforce a the dictates of a religion? Maybe I’m being too cynical.

  69. Another avoidance? Gee, I’m crazy because you can’t answer a hypothetical?

    Perhaps you should stop posing stupid hypotheticals that are the equivalent of the terrorist-with-a-ticking-time-bomb scenario. Sure, that might work on 24, but nobody here is Jack Bauer.

    Like everyone’s pointed out, the whole newborn-in-a-remote-cabin scenario is pretty damn farfetched. In any event, if you have an infant in your care, you have a duty to care for the infant.

    In any event, if we’re talking about mountain cabins and running out of formula, what would *you* do if the baby formula ran out?

    Also, I don’t think that

  70. The difference between a parasite and a fetus, however, regardless of their dependence on the host’s life support system, is that the fetus is not part of a disease.

    I’m sure one of the science types will be along to address this soon, but how is the presence of disease a necessary component of a parasitic relationship?

  71. You’ve made your point, but your point does require the logical equivalence of a fetus and a malignant parasite (and a non-malignant parasite in case the mother consents to her exploitation). The difference between a parasite and a fetus, however, regardless of their dependence on the host’s life support system, is that the fetus is not part of a disease. Pregancy, wether desired or not, is not a disease, it’s a necessary element of human procreation. But then, we can also define life as a 100% lethal sexually transmitted disease… it just doesn’t make much sense (to me).

    Well, now were getting into defining disease. Would you consider a tapeworm a disease? What about a tick? Fleas? None of those parasites are specifically part of a disease (though they can contribute) yet I don’t think anyone would argue that there are any moral implications to scraping off a tick. So what makes a fetus different?

    Your argument is that, because pregnancy is part of the human life cycle, it is a special case that deserves special consideration. That means that what were talking about isn’t so much a legal discussion as a philosophical one. I don’t really know how you conceptualize the issue, but I can explain how I do.

    I see the issues at play in the abortion debate as being about human liberty. The liberty of a woman to decide how her body will be used. I believe that personal sovereignty should be absolute, that the individual is the final arbiter of who gets to use their body and under what circumstances. That means that I am unswervingly pro-choice. I conceptualize the other side of the debate, the forced-birth side, as being an attack on personal sovereignty. The fundamental argument is that someone else has a right to tell a woman how her body will be used. At the end of the day every argument against abortion that I’ve seen boils down to either “God own your body and He decides how it gets to be used, we have decided what His intent is, and we will use the coercive power of government to enforce that interpretation” or “women are the keepers of sex and a whore who gives it up willingly should not be allowed to murder an innocent.”

    The first argument is the kind of theocratic bullshit that makes me glad I own a gun. The second is the kind of misogynistic bullshit that makes me glad my wife owns a gun. Both are rooted in the idea that women are somehow not important enough to make their own decisions, that their bodies are owned by someone else, that women exist not as ends in themselves but as means for the gratification of others.

  72. Reflection on hypothetical cases can be very useful–maybe they’re even necessary–for the purpose of coming to fully understand complex ideas like the right to bodily autonomy. Judith Jarvis Thomson’s classic paper on abortion is full of implausible hypotheticals (e.g., a world-class violinist hooked up to your kidneys without your consent, a life long pregnancy, etc., etc.), and they are totally ingenious and illuminating. So nobody, including Thomson, is claiming that these cases are in any way realistic, and whether they are is obviously beside the point. The cases are meant to help make out the deeper principles that govern the concept of the right to bodily autonomy so that we can apply that concept more reliably to realistic actual cases.

    Look at it this way: wouldn’t it be absurd and beside the point if I replied to Thomson’s piece by saying that her violinist example is far-fetched?

  73. Well, there’s absurd and far-fetched in the service of making a point and illuminating the stakes involved, and then there’s absurd and far-fetched in the what-does-it-matter department. The cabin example falls into the latter, because if for some reason an adult finds his or herself in a remote mountain cabin with a newborn belonging to someone else, of course there’s an obligation to care for the infant. Whether that entails breastfeeding or the introduction of chewed-up food really doesn’t matter. It’s not an example that really gets anyone thinking about the issue in any sort of enlightening way, unlike the violinist example. That’s enlightening because it says something about the nature of the physical imposition of a fetus on its mother in a way that anyone, female or not, could understand.

  74. zuzu,

    If as you suggest it is obvious that you’d not be within your rights to withold breastfeeding from the child in the cabin case (something, incidentally, that I doubt everyone here will agree to), then it follows that the right to bodily autonomy is not absolute. That seems highly relevant to the discussion, since it makes it seem that issues concerning the right to bodily autonomy are more complex than you might have thought. So I don’t understand your suggestion that the cabin case is irrelevant. Are you suggesting that it is beside the point that the right to bodily autonomy is not absolute? Or are you suggesting that the cabin case does not really show this?

    Second, I don’t see the difference between the cabin case and the violinist case. Both are completely far-fetched. You say of the cabin case:

    It’s not an example that really gets anyone thinking about the issue in any sort of enlightening way, unlike the violinist example. That’s enlightening because it says something about the nature of the physical imposition of a fetus on its mother in a way that anyone, female or not, could understand.

    But doesn’t the cabin case say something about the nature of the right to bodily autonomy (namely, that it is not absolute) that anyone can understand?

  75. If as you suggest it is obvious that you’d not be within your rights to withold breastfeeding from the child in the cabin case (something, incidentally, that I doubt everyone here will agree to), then it follows that the right to bodily autonomy is not absolute.

    Chad, you’re missing a very nuance here. In the cabin case you’re talking about an infant that you had already agreed to care for. The mother in that case had taken active steps to accept responsibility for the infant. The issue of bodily autonomy is not at the root of that hypothetical, instead what you are really discussing is the responsibilities that a guardian has to a child. There are two things that make abortion very different from that case. First, no one has established that a fetus is the same as child. It would follow that if you cannot prove that a fetus is a child you cannot expect a person to be held to the same standard of care for a fetus that they would a child. Second, you have not established guardianship. That is, in the case of an abortion the woman has not agreed to care for the fetus. Thats why the cabin hypothetical is ridiculous, because it isn’t looking at the same issue as abortion.

    I think the confusion here is one of the primary misunderstandings between the forced-birth and the pro-choice camps. The forced-birth camp believes that there is something special about a pregnancy, that a woman has some kind of responsibility for the fetus by virtue of being a woman. At the root of that belief is the idea that this is what women do, that somehow the desire to not want to have a child at a given moment is unnatural, that it is an abdication of motherhood and undermines the place women have in the natural order. Tied into that belief are a whole host of other dualistic value judgments about sex, sexuality, and gender. To the forced birth side, abortion isn’t just murder, its a supremely submissive act that attacks the fabric of society.

  76. If as you suggest it is obvious that you’d not be within your rights to withold breastfeeding from the child in the cabin case (something, incidentally, that I doubt everyone here will agree to), then it follows that the right to bodily autonomy is not absolute.

    No, I said you couldn’t withhold food from the child if the child was in your care. Anyone, man, lactating woman or non-lactating woman, would have the same responsibility towards an infant. It has nothing to do with bodily autonomy and everything to do with taking on the care of an infant. Mind you, if you have a ready food source, that you need to get out of your body on a regular basis lest you develop mastitis, it’s irrational not to feed the newborn via breastfeeding or pumping. But again, that’s not because of lack of bodily autonomy but because you’re producing a food source for infants, you have to get that milk out of your body in some way, and you have a duty of care toward an infant that you for some reason took to an isolated cabin in the winter. Why the hell *not* feed the kid that way?

    See, here’s the thing about hypotheticals that attempt to draw analogies — they have to draw analogies.

  77. Dianne,

    An embryology textbook would pretty much tell you that a fetus is really not a person in any meaningful sense and an embryo certainly isn’t, any more than the body of a brain dead person is still a person, even if its heart is still beating.

    I didn’t know embryology textbooks were supposed to deal with philosophical concepts like “personhood.”

    But that’s not the only problem. One other is that we’re doing in vitro fertilization all wrong. We should simply be fertilizing one oocyte at a time, not doing a bunch at once and freezing the excess

    I don’t know if one at a time is quite right but I certainly agree with the idea that IVF clinics shouldn’t be creating more embryos than a couple is planning to implant.

    Your death arguments seem to equate “never again” and “not yet.” Here’s something from First Things by Maureen Condic on this subject.

    Again with idea that cell lines are close to or iffy living human beings? No reputable scientist believes that. Reputable scientists recognize that cell lines are living organisms. I think this is like the 3rd or 4th time in Feministe comments section where you’ve made this same argument. Do you still think HeLa cells are a human organism?

  78. William said:

    Chad, you’re missing a very nuance here. In the cabin case you’re talking about an infant that you had already agreed to care for.

    But see my comment 52–I switched the example.

    Zuzu,

    So you’re saying that the infant has a right to breastfeed in the case, but that this is consistent with the right of the woman in the case to absolute bodily autonomy? Doesn’t the two rights clash in this case if the woman, for whatever weird reason, doesn’t want the baby to use her body? It seems to me that a more promising reply would be to say that the woman has an obligation to the baby but that the baby nevertheless doesn’t have a right to use her body. I think Thomson might say that, but I can’t remember everything she says in the article about the relationship between rights and obligations.

    Anyway, I guess your complaint is no longer that the case is too far out.

  79. So you’re saying that the infant has a right to breastfeed in the case, but that this is consistent with the right of the woman in the case to absolute bodily autonomy?

    No, not at all. I’m saying that the adult has a duty to care for the infant. Which is different than the infant having a right to the adult’s body.

    As a practical matter, however, the fact that you’re lactating, there’s an infant in the room, you can’t get out, you don’t have a breast pump, and there’s no other food for the baby means that you will most likely end up breastfeeding.

    If you refuse to feed the baby, and the baby starves, you will most likely be held to be negligent in that child’s death. Not because the baby had a right to your body, but because you, as an adult, had an obligation to care for an infant in your custody.

    Just like you have an obligation to provide medical care to your dependents, but no obligation to give your kid your kidney, even if it winds up being the death of them. You also don’t have the right to take your kid’s kidney if the kid is the only match and you’ll die without a transplant.

    What is so difficult to understand about that?

  80. Fine, then suppose you are a breastfeeding mother and you find yourself in a situation where you are trapped with a baby that is not your own. The only way to keep the baby alive is to breastfeed it. I think it is pretty clear that you have a responsibility, even though you didn’t have a choice about the existence of that child, and even though you haven’t taken on any parental responsibilities.

    No, you do have a responsibility to care for the infant, even if it’s not your own, because you have run off to a mountain cabin with it. For whatever bizarre reason you might have done that, while leaving your own infant at home.

  81. I don’t know if one at a time is quite right but I certainly agree with the idea that IVF clinics shouldn’t be creating more embryos than a couple is planning to implant.

    JivinJ: I think that right there betrays your argument. The product of an IVf clinic is a tiny mass of undifferentiated cells. The mass lacks self awareness, it is essentially a chemical reaction of sperm and egg. Even in the event of implantation, there is a high likelihood it will not make it to the point of being recognizable as human to anyone without a DNA analysis. Despite all that, you believe that there is some moral problem with a clinic making too many of these masses of undifferentiated tissue because you consider it human. Is it that you believe there is some magical force haunting those cells, something that makes them special and precious, something that elevates them above animals and makes them human? If that is your belief, why? More importantly, why should that completely subjective and unprovable notion be enshrined into the law?

  82. But see my comment 52–I switched the example.

    Ahh, I hadn’t seen that change. Well, if you brought the child to the cabin with you, you’d have the responsibility to care for it because you took on guardianship. If you somehow stumbled upon a cabin with an abandoned infant, I believe you would have a moral obligation but not a legal one.

  83. William,

    Of course this is a philosophical debate. Whether it can inform a possible legal debate may be determined by the outcome. Thanks for outlining how you conceptionalise the issue and the two lines of thought against abortion you have encountered.

    As it is apparently necessary, let me repeat what I stated in my initial question to Jill – I am not opposing a liberal abortion policy for a lot of practical reasons. I’m just saying that I find it strange to – correctly – argue that abortion is unlike murder, but to be less inclined to differentiate on the other end of the argument: a fetus IS NOT a virus.

    I’m sure you’re aware of Kant’s categorical imperative. Individual liberties can only be exercised without restraint as long as no one else’s rights are infringed upon. I can not exercise my right to x without considering that my doing so might infringe yours.
    No right is absolute.

    Given that it is absurd to argue that a fetus has no rights in the second before the umbilical cord is cut and full bodily autonomy and individual rights from the secod thereafter, we have to deal with the a) the question of “when does life begin” and b) how to balance the rights of women with the moral (if not legal) rights of the fetus growing inside them.

    I am sorry that you have apparently only been exposed to entirely stupid arguments. At least the two you mention are. It’s not necessary to refer to God to point out the moral dilemmas. And it doesn’t have – a priori – much to do with a woman’s possible responsibility for the occurrence of the pregnancy.

    In fact, in a Kantian ideal situation, women would not be forced to do something against their will, they would themselves balance the conflicting rights appropriately and act according to the logical conclusion – “duty, mighty and sublime word that has nothing charming or insinuating, but requires submission”. Still, it is a submission of their free will, not one imposed by someone else.

    Problem is, we don’t know how this superior rational solution. In practice, all of this becomes politics and thus, partly, a power struggle with stupid arguments like the ones you pointed out. No real world solution will be anywhere close to a “rational” solution and its dutiful acceptance by everyone. Which is why I’m not supporting liberal abortion policies for a lot of practical reasons.

    Still, that does not exonerate from making the best possible argument in support of that policy. Not differentiating between a virus and a fetus is not making a very good argument.

  84. William,

    CORRECTION to the last sentence of the second last paragraph of my previous comment – “Which is why I AM supporting liberal abortion policies for a lot of practical reasons.” (this is what happens when “I’m not opposing” is sloppily changed to “I’m supporting.”

  85. Please note it is my belief that anything with human genes that could not live on _outside of the body_ of a human is not a person, although it may genetically be a human. So a fetus is not a person, since it cannot even be exposed to the outside world.

    BUT
    If fetuses are people, then unwanted pregnancies are crimes on the part of the fetus. Using a woman’s body for 9 months and making her give birth to you against her will is much worse than some other “control” crimes mentioned here.
    Therefore, if we ban abortion, upon birth all unwanted babies should be tried for damaging a woman’s body permanently, forcing her through a painful and probably traumatic (remember, unwanted) procedure after 9 months, stealing her food, damaging her career, and all of the other things pregnancy does to her.
    Given the seriousness of its combined crimes, the baby should be tried as an adult. What is the punishment for an adult that uses a woman’s body against her will, permanently disfigures her, hurts her work prospects, causes traumatic experiences..?

    Not to belittle pregnancy if you want it. Pregnancy if you want it is probably great, just like sex if you want it.

  86. Ok i left a huge opening there.

    I’m not saying that if fetuses are persons we should be able to practice capital punishment on them, I’m just saying that if they are persons then they would be criminals upon birth and would have to be arrested for such.

    Because if its a person, it is 100% responsible for its actions of using the woman.

    If you hold that a fetus is a person, then this must also be true.

  87. Because if its a person, it is 100% responsible for its actions of using the woman.

    If you hold that a fetus is a person, then this must also be true.

    Not quite true. In order for a person to be held responsible for a crime most jurisdictions require tha ability to form intent. A fetus has no such ability.

  88. William,

    strangely, the comment which the correction above is referring to, seems to be stuck in moderation.

  89. a fetus IS NOT a virus.

    Parasites aren’t viruses, either, though you keep insisting so. But a fetus has a parasitic relationship to the mother, in that it draws resources from the mother to support it, and can’t exist independently. Why is that so offensive to you?

  90. Zuzu,

    as I explained in my first response to William above, the difference between a parasite and a fetus, regardless of their dependence on the host’s life support system, is that the fetus is not part of a disease. Pregancy, wether desired or not, is not a disease, it’s a necessary element of human procreation. We might just as well define life as a 100% lethal sexually transmitted disease… it just doesn’t make much sense (to me), philosophically and otherwise.

  91. I see the issues at play in the abortion debate as being about human liberty. The liberty of a woman to decide how her body will be used. I believe that personal sovereignty should be absolute, that the individual is the final arbiter of who gets to use their body and under what circumstances. That means that I am unswervingly pro-choice. I conceptualize the other side of the debate, the forced-birth side, as being an attack on personal sovereignty. The fundamental argument is that someone else has a right to tell a woman how her body will be used. At the end of the day every argument against abortion that I’ve seen boils down to either “God own your body and He decides how it gets to be used, we have decided what His intent is, and we will use the coercive power of government to enforce that interpretation” or “women are the keepers of sex and a whore who gives it up willingly should not be allowed to murder an innocent.”

    The first argument is the kind of theocratic bullshit that makes me glad I own a gun. The second is the kind of misogynistic bullshit that makes me glad my wife owns a gun. Both are rooted in the idea that women are somehow not important enough to make their own decisions, that their bodies are owned by someone else, that women exist not as ends in themselves but as means for the gratification of others.

    Just because it seems like no one has already done so, I would like to give William a virtual, internetty high-five. Perfectly stated, William, thank you.

    Just to add another dimension – as zuzu brought up donation of kidneys – what about organ donation? There are hundreds of thousands of people currently on organ-donation waitlists. These people are depending on the availability of other people’s organs – do we not, as a society, have a duty to provide them with the means to live?

    Are pro-forced-birthers (as ostensible proponents of compulsory organ donation) organ-donors themselves? Not just the kind that carry organ donors cards in their wallets, but live organ donors, the kind that volunteer their expendable organs to people (real, live breathing children and adults) who need organs? If not, why? People are fond of saying that they expect every pro-forced-birther working the PP harassment line to volunteer to raise an unwanted child themselves – I don’t think that’s an apt requirement; I think they should all have to volunteer to be a live donor.

    I had a friend with a bum kidney, on dialysis, on the waiting list for a transplant. He had a brother and sister who were a match. The brother wanted to donate, but his wife had issues with it. The sister had a strained relationship with my friend, but eventually consented to begin the process – a process that involved intensive counselling sessions, where they reviewed her intentions, how she would feel if the procedure went south and she herself was damaged by the process; if something went horribly wrong in surgery, and she died, had she arranged for who would take care of her children, etc. For all their talk about “informed consent”, forced-birthers don’t seem to see the other side; I, too, am for informed consent, in that all pregnant women sitting down with their OB/GYNs for the first time should be counselled that carrying a pregnancy to term is 11 times more likely to kill you than terminating it, that their is the risk of ectopic pregnancy, gestational diabetes, or in the case of another friend’s sister, the risk that the umbilical cord could be detached, and you may have to spend three months in the hospital under close observation.

    My point being, that their is a medical standard for living organ donors that we don’t seem to hold equal to expectant mothers. Why is that, exactly?

    Back to organ donation. So, we don’t seem to have a massive push to register all citizens as living organ donors, even if that would save the lives of those who are demonstrably persons. (Though, if we illegalize abortion, that would be the first thing I would propose; if women lose sovereignty over their body, men should too.) Why do we not enforce mandatory organ donation for the dead? While not all organs would be viable, depending on manner of death and the condition of the organs, I’m assuming we would see a drastic reduction of need on the waiting list.

    … Oh, wait, some religions consider such a thing a desecration of the body. Some people are just uncomfortable with the idea of their body parts being used in another’s person. And we respect that, even after they have died. Which, if you think about it, means that we respect the bodily integrity of the dead more than we respect the bodily integrity of live women. Which brings me back to something else William said:

    The forced-birth camp believes that there is something special about a pregnancy, that a woman has some kind of responsibility for the fetus by virtue of being a woman. At the root of that belief is the idea that this is what women do, that somehow the desire to not want to have a child at a given moment is unnatural, that it is an abdication of motherhood and undermines the place women have in the natural order. Tied into that belief are a whole host of other dualistic value judgments about sex, sexuality, and gender.

    Chew on that.

  92. Well, I used “virus” as an example for something that is parasitical AND malignant in the sense that it is NOT part of a natural progress. Sure, in a way, a fetus, a growing lump of cells may also be defined as a cancer. The fact remains that pregancy is a necessary element of human procreation and thus a fetus is cannot be possibly defined as malignant, regardless of any possible biological similarities. It’s a fundamental difference, and the only reason I can see for an argument about this is political – that accepting the difference would lead on a slippery slope towards illegalisation of abortion (as far as the US are concerned). As I said, I don’t think that political considerations exonerate from making a correct philosophical argument…

  93. as I explained in my first response to William above, the difference between a parasite and a fetus, regardless of their dependence on the host’s life support system, is that the fetus is not part of a disease. Pregancy, wether desired or not, is not a disease, it’s a necessary element of human procreation. We might just as well define life as a 100% lethal sexually transmitted disease… it just doesn’t make much sense (to me), philosophically and otherwise.

    Ok, lets be clear. The definition of disease I am using is the one from the Princeton English dictionary: “An impairment of health or abnormal functioning.” A pregnancy fits under both of those banners. The fact that it is part of the reproductive cycle does not change the fact that pregnancy is both a deviation from normal functioning and an impairment to the health of the woman.

  94. RKMK, thanks for the support. I think your post shows one of the major misunderstandings that the pro-choice crowd has when it comes to the forced-birth crowd, and it comes down to the fact that they call themselves “pro-life.” Its a bullshit term specifically crafted to appeal to emotion and force their opponents to start from a deficit, but it isn’t really accurate.

    My point being, that their is a medical standard for living organ donors that we don’t seem to hold equal to expectant mothers. Why is that, exactly?

    The reason the forced-birth camp isn’t fighting for organ donation is that their movement isn’t about protecting life. Their movement is about making sure arrogant humans do not interfere with God’s ineffable plan. Abortion and contraception might be murder to them, but that isn’t where the anger comes from. The anger comes from human beings putting themselves on the same level as God, human beings seeking to subvert God’s will for their own convenience. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors designed to make that intrinsically religious stance more palatable to the general public. This isn’t about life, this is about forcing others to submit to their God.

  95. William,

    pregnancy is both a deviation from normal functioning and an impairment to the health of the woman.

    Well, I’m sorry, to me, pregnancy (in itself, disregarding possible health problems caused by it, complications, etc) is not an impairment of health. Getting older as such isn’t actually considered an impairment to health even though it usually causes a couple of impairments. Neither is a pregnancy an “abnormal functioning of the female body”. Quite frankly, we may be too concerned with gender that we have forgotten about sex. The female body has a reproductive system for a reason: pregancy. Pregnancy is thus one of the biological states that define what the normal functioning of the female body is. That is, of course, quite independent from whether a pregnancy actually occurs or not – but it strikes me as odd to use the “not”-case as normal and define pregnancy as abnormal.

  96. The fact remains that pregancy is a necessary element of human procreation and thus a fetus is cannot be possibly defined as malignant, regardless of any possible biological similarities

    Beg to differ, Robesspierre. A pregnancy, which can result in any manner of symptoms and conditions, from things as “benign” as morning sickness to as life threatening as ectopic pregancy, gestational diabetes, and many other complications that can damage the mother or end her life, and yes, can be considered malignant, especially if the pregnancy is unwanted.

  97. Psst, Robespierre: a handy list you may wish to review.

    I know you don’t seem to care about the health of women whatsoever, and that since the dirty woman consented to sex, she must accept what God has deemed necessary to bring life into this world, but nonetheless, that’s a rather comprehensive list to negate your assertion that a pregnancy is not an impairment of health – even the uncomplicated ones.

  98. Well, I’m sorry, to me, pregnancy (in itself, disregarding possible health problems caused by it, complications, etc) is not an impairment of health.

    Also, this statement begs the question: are you male or female, Robbespierre? My guess is male, but if you are female, have you ever been pregnant?

    I didn’t get very far along in my own pregnancy (thank FSM), but the two months I was, I would testify that it was (very much) an impairment to my health. I do not, as a matter of course, throw up every day. I do not, as a matter of course, feel drained and lethargic. I do not, as a matter of course, feel nauseous around certain foods. And to those women who go farther on in their pregnancies (even wanted, cherished pregnancies), I would place folding money that the physical symptoms and conditions they experience are not how they would be feeling, day to day, if they were not carrying a child.

    You can go on about how we must procreate, blah blah biological-imperatives-cakes, but to wax on about the female body is “built” for it, and therefore pregnancy cannot be considered a potential impairment of health is either willfully ignorant or overwhelmingly stupid. Women are equipped with a uterus, yes, but when you, or Bill O’Reilly, or any nitwit starts waxing on about how pregnancy is such a cakewalk, that God somehow rewards child-bearing women with blossoming health and la la la fairies, sunshine, bluebirds? You’re risking 50% of the population coming up and punching you in the face, because the reality is far, far, far from this ridiculous myth.

    Pregancy is not fun. Pregnancy can make you ill, maim you, kill you. And therefore, no one on this planet has the authority to force another person to carry a pregnancy against their will.

  99. Well, I’m sorry, to me, pregnancy (in itself, disregarding possible health problems caused by it, complications, etc) is not an impairment of health.

    We might just have to agree to disagree there. Pregnancy causes pain, weight gain, water retention, and wreaks havoc on the endocrine system. A significant percentage of women have serious neuropathology during the year or so following giving birth. Beyond that pregnancy raises the risk for a whole host of other diseases an abnormalities. I simply don’t believe that you can disregard the health problems caused by pregnancy because it also happens to be a natural state.

    Quite frankly, we may be too concerned with gender that we have forgotten about sex. The female body has a reproductive system for a reason: pregancy. Pregnancy is thus one of the biological states that define what the normal functioning of the female body is. That is, of course, quite independent from whether a pregnancy actually occurs or not – but it strikes me as odd to use the “not”-case as normal and define pregnancy as abnormal.

    And that line of reasoning is exactly why we will never find a middle ground. I don’t really care why a given part of a person’s body is there, I don’t believe that nature has any claim on the human experience, I don’t believe that the “natural order” should be respected or considered in these discussions. In fact, I see nature as an impediment. I feel that the greatest thing humanity can achieve is to reach fulfillment despite nature. I see contraception and abortion as a victory of humanity over the tyranny of our basic biological hindrances, just as antibiotics helped us conquer average life expectancies in the 50s.

    You say that the female body has a reproductive system for a reason, and you feel that that reason is worthy of consideration. I say that the only reason worth consideration is the reason of the woman. We are not animals, we do not exist only to be fruitful and multiply, neither God nor biology has any right to rule our lives.

    Also, the reason I define “not pregnant” as the norm is because most women spend the majority of their lives not pregnant. Hell, most women in the west spend a good portion of their adult lives actively avoiding pregnancy. Again, were at the issue of what a woman’s purpose is. You see women as existing to bring a new generation of human beings into the world. Sure, maybe they have other goals, maybe they can do other things along the way, but nature has marked them as progenitors. I say “fuck it, nature can kiss my hairy ass.” My ancestors didn’t climb to the top of the food chain and put human beings on the moon just so we could be brought to heel by inconvenient biology.

  100. RKMK,

    Pregancy is not fun. Pregnancy can make you ill, maim you, kill you. And therefore, no one on this planet has the authority to force another person to carry a pregnancy against their will.

    please, I’m glad you got out of your system whatever you felt necessary to throw at me. Thing is, next time, please just read what I wrote before doing that. It’s more fun to be accused of things one actually said. As per the quote above – Yes, and I said that above, a pregnancy can have effects that are impairments to health. Sure. Most pregnancies have. So does getting older. Do we define “getting older” as an impairment to health? Hardly. If we did, it would truly beg the question which of human biological states during the “circle of life” should be considered the default? In fact, there are a number of states that are perfectly normal, and pregnancy is one of them. This logical statement, however, again, does not mean that a pregnancy cannot cause severe health impairments, including impairments that may cause the pregnant woman to terminate the pregnancy and even some that may force doctors to terminate a pregnancy in the interest of their patient. So no, at no point have I even alluded that pregnancy is a cakewalk. Your implication that I did is unfair and apparently only designed to derail what I would call a civil discussion about an issue on which civil discussions have become exceedingly rare. NI won’t bite. I am not discounting your experience or any woman’s experience. I’m making a logical argument about the uniqueness of a biological state and the according incommensurabilty of “parasite” arguments.

    William,

    I simply don’t believe that you can disregard the health problems caused by pregnancy because it also happens to be a natural state.

    where did I say I’m disregarding them? I’m just saying that “parasite” comparisons are logically faulty and that the correct distinction between “murder” and “abortion” has a logical equivalent at the other end of the debate – which is where we get back to Kant (to which you, unfortunately, did not reply yet).

    I don’t believe that nature has any claim on the human experience, I don’t believe that the “natural order” should be respected or considered in these discussions. In fact, I see nature as an impediment.

    Well, nature is a f***ing big impediment. Death sucks, really, big time. Doesn’t mean we can get around it. If you find a way, let me know asap, please.

    I see contraception and abortion as a victory of humanity over the tyranny of our basic biological hindrances, just as antibiotics helped us conquer average life expectancies in the 50s.

    Yes, and no. The difference is that abortion doesn’t ONLY affect the woman’s rights. Again, Kant. If you have a philosophical argument that is logically defining away all rights of the fetus, then your point would be entirely correct. Unfortunately, no one has ever been able to make that point. Why? Because there is no way to logically define away in a morally consistent way.

    We are not animals, we do not exist only to be fruitful and multiply, neither God nor biology has any right to rule our lives.

    Well, biology DOES rule or life, for the better or worse. That said, I agree we’re not animals, and that’s why we can conceptionalise the problems involved in our decisions.

    You see women as existing to bring a new generation of human beings into the world.

    At which point have I said that? In fact, I believe that while humanity as a group may have a teleological reason (replication), this is not true for each individual. Still, as long as sexual replication is the only way to procreate, women are the ones who will get pregnant. Biology may be inconvient. But that’s the way things are.

    My ancestors didn’t climb to the top of the food chain and put human beings on the moon just so we could be brought to heel by inconvenient biology.

    I’m sure you’re aware of the irony of that statement in the context of this discussion…

  101. where did I say I’m disregarding them? I’m just saying that “parasite” comparisons are logically faulty and that the correct distinction between “murder” and “abortion” has a logical equivalent at the other end of the debate – which is where we get back to Kant (to which you, unfortunately, did not reply yet).

    You disregarded the implications in the parenthetical of the first sentence of post #99. I’m not sure where this “other end of the debate” you’re talking about is, as I’ve tried very hard to respond to each of your points. Also, don’t bring up Kant. I simply do not have the time for a repressed Victorian who was trying his damnedest to prove the validity of simplistic Christian morals in the absence of God. Besides, this is a discussion of applied theory, the real world gets mighty messy.

    Yes, and no. The difference is that abortion doesn’t ONLY affect the woman’s rights. Again, Kant. If you have a philosophical argument that is logically defining away all rights of the fetus, then your point would be entirely correct. Unfortunately, no one has ever been able to make that point. Why? Because there is no way to logically define away in a morally consistent way.

    You’re missing my point. I’m not defining away the rights of the fetus, I’m simply ignoring them. I could define a fetus as non-human, but I don’t really need to. Even if a fetus is human, even if it has all the rights that a human being has, it does not get to make demands upon the body of another. Period. Thats the end of the discussion for me, really. You can dance around and invoke Kant and poke at the logic, but on a fundamental level I believe that a woman’s body is her own and that no one has some intrinsic right to it’s resources just because they might die without them.

    Well, biology DOES rule or life, for the better or worse. That said, I agree we’re not animals, and that’s why we can conceptionalise the problems involved in our decisions.

    And you’re ok with that? You’re ok with being a slave to the vagaries of nature? More to the point, you believe that we should continue to submit to anything nature throws at us even if we have the power to prevent it? Or is the situation different because were talking about women and fetuses, which is really shorthand for sluts and innocents?

    Thats the bottom line here. Either you believe that there is something wrong with foiling the will of nature, or you believe that women somehow have a responsibility to allow something that isn’t considered human by the law to use their bodies. Those are the only two choices you’re down to.

    At which point have I said that? In fact, I believe that while humanity as a group may have a teleological reason (replication), this is not true for each individual. Still, as long as sexual replication is the only way to procreate, women are the ones who will get pregnant. Biology may be inconvient. But that’s the way things are.

    But you are using that line of reasoning to support limitations on abortion. My stance is that the only time a pregnancy should continue is if the woman whose body is being hijacked chooses not to terminate it. Keep the context of this discussion in mind. Look up to the top of your browser window. This isn’t a theoretical discussion of abortion, this is a discussion of why it should remain legal or be criminalized. Were talking not about the abstract moral implications of abortion but whether the coercive force of government should be brought to bare on women who choose to end a pregnancy. There might be some room for abstract discussion somewhere else, but in this discussion there is a big bold line. Either you believe it should be legal and available, or not. If you’re on the legal side, fine. If you believe it should be criminalized, well, then I hope my side has more pull. Failing that, I hope I’m a better shot.

  102. JivinJ, I’d answer, but zuzu already did it for me.

    “…Anyone, man, lactating woman or non-lactating woman, would have the same responsibility towards an infant. It has nothing to do with bodily autonomy and everything to do with taking on the care of an infant. Mind you, if you have a ready food source, that you need to get out of your body on a regular basis lest you develop mastitis, it’s irrational not to feed the newborn via breastfeeding or pumping. But again, that’s not because of lack of bodily autonomy but because you’re producing a food source for infants, you have to get that milk out of your body in some way, and you have a duty of care toward an infant that you for some reason took to an isolated cabin in the winter. Why the hell *not* feed the kid that way?

    See, here’s the thing about hypotheticals that attempt to draw analogies — they have to draw analogies.”

    That last part? And the part where you are reaching so incredibly far in order to come up with this non-analogy that you have to rely on the woman being so irrational that she acts against her own self-interest? That’s the “you’re crazy” part.

    And may I add that “anyone” really means anyone – parent or not. (Which I know zuzu pointed out as well, but wasn’t clarified in this particular quote.)

  103. “If you somehow stumbled upon a cabin with an abandoned infant, I believe you would have a moral obligation but not a legal one.”

    Sorry to be all mean and insulting, but you crazy too. If there’s a way to feed the kid, the adult in question is the only one there to do so, and the adult doesn’t make even the slightest effort to feed the kid, and the kid dies, it doesn’t matter if he/she agreed to take care of the kid or not. The adult would still be charged with murder.

    In a more likely scenario, if there’s a toddler wandering around by him/herself in my store, and kids aren’t allowed in the store by themselves, so I kick the toddler out – instead of calling the cops and watching over the toddler in the meantime, and the toddler gets hurt (or, really, even if he/she doesn’t) then I can (and should) be brought up on criminal charges.

    Jesus Christ, people. No wonder why we couldn’t get even S-CHIP passed.

  104. The adult would still be charged with murder.

    You’re right, they would. I was saying that if I was on the jury I’m not sure I’d vote to convict. Helping the infant might be the decent, moral, human thing to do, but I’m not sure I’m comfortable with the precedent. You need to think about the long term implications of criminalizing behavior. In that case you are saying that not helping another person in need when you have the ability is the same as killing them yourself. You’re saying that someone refusing to provide aid deserves hard prison time, even execution (depending on the state and the circumstances).

    Think that through, imagine exactly what the ramifications of such a precedent would be. How far should someone be required to go to help? What risk should they be required to put themselves at? How do they determine if their help is needed in less cut-and-dry cases? If I hear screaming outside of my home in the middle of the night, to what lengths do you think I should be required to go to avoid jail time? What if my phone is out? Does the fact that I’m a 260 pound man who owns a weapon effect what is expected of me? What if it was my 110 pound wife, would the standard be different for her? Who gets to make these decisions?

    I’m not saying I wouldn’t feed the infant. I’m not saying that choosing not to feed the infant is a good decision. I’m not even saying it’s neutral. Hell, I’d probably disown a member of my family who choose not to do what they could to help. Thats what good people do, thats what human beings do. The problem is that you have to consider what the collateral damage would be from bringing in the coercive power of the state to enforce morality.

    I know were talking about feeding a helpless infant but thats an appeal to emotion, not to reason. The legal standard shouldn’t change just because the subject of aid is cute and the aid being discussed is small. The law needs concrete standards that are fair and generally applicable.

  105. please, I’m glad you got out of your system whatever you felt necessary to throw at me

    Wow. Way to ignore everything else I had to say. Bravo.

  106. If you somehow stumbled upon a cabin with an abandoned infant, I believe you would have a moral obligation

    So you agree then that a person might not always be morally justified in witholding use of their body from someone else. That, I take it, is the point of the example. Issues of bodily autonomy are not simple, and they deserve lots of careful thought and discussion. Certainly it is not appropriate to argue for a pro-choice position as if the right to bodily autonomy is obviously absolute. Though of course there might be a cogent argument from the right to bodily autonomy for a pro-choice view; I just don’t think it will be an easy or simple argument.

  107. So you agree then that a person might not always be morally justified in witholding use of their body from someone else.

    I’m sorry, have you been reading the thread at all? The obligation to feed an infant does not create a corresponding right in the infant to use your body.

  108. I didn’t say that William agreed that the infant has a right to the person’s body. I said that he agreed that it is morally impermissible for the person to withold her body from the baby in the case described. I think it follows that the right to bodily autonomy is not absolute. (It is strained to say that she woudl be within her rights to withold her body from the baby in the case described.) But if you like I could have said that what follows is that it is not always morally permissible to withold use of one’s body from another person. You might reply by arguing that the person would still have a *right* to withold her body, even though witholding it would not be morally permissible in the cabin case, and that the right would trump her the prima facie obligation in the case of abortion. I won’t disagree–it would require getting clearer on the ways in which abortion and the cabin case are different. But I would say that things are getting sufficiently complicated that my main point would be appropriate, namely:

    Certainly it is not appropriate to argue for a pro-choice position as if the right to bodily autonomy is obviously absolute. Though of course there might be a cogent argument from the right to bodily autonomy for a pro-choice view; I just don’t think it will be an easy or simple argument.

  109. Chad, feeling a child via breastmilk (in the absurd analogy you’re referring to) is a far cry from consenting to carry a fetus, along with all the health consequences involved, with it continually feeding off your internal organs, lowering your immune system, putting stress on your body – not to mention the pain and risk of childbirth. Even granting personhood to the fetus from conception, the two situations are not really analogous at all.

  110. So you agree then that a person might not always be morally justified in witholding use of their body from someone else. That, I take it, is the point of the example. Issues of bodily autonomy are not simple, and they deserve lots of careful thought and discussion. Certainly it is not appropriate to argue for a pro-choice position as if the right to bodily autonomy is obviously absolute. Though of course there might be a cogent argument from the right to bodily autonomy for a pro-choice view; I just don’t think it will be an easy or simple argument.

    Is that what I said? Read my response closely, did I at any point call into question bodily autonomy? Was not the entire thrust of my post drawing a big bright line between personal ethics and legal obligations? I’ll break it down for you, as you seem to be having problems.

    When we talk about rights we are talking about specific legal standards. I have the right to free speech, which means that I can say what I please and the government cannot prosecute me for it. That means that I have the right to deny the holocaust or or refer to people of certain races as monkeys. I can say those hurtful things and no law can be enacted to stop or penalize me because it is my right to say them. However, if I chose to say those things I believe it would be morally wrong. See the difference, the nuance? I might not choose to do those things because I feel they would be morally wrong, but the implications of making those actions illegal are unacceptable.

    I didn’t say that William agreed that the infant has a right to the person’s body. I said that he agreed that it is morally impermissible for the person to withold her body from the baby in the case described. I think it follows that the right to bodily autonomy is not absolute.

    Again, you’re having trouble with the distinction between what is moral and what is legal. What is moral is what I, as an individual, thing someone ought to do. What is legal is a different standard. When a behavior is criminalized that means that a society has decided an action to be so universally terrible that the transgressing individual should have the vast majority of their rights taken away. More importantly, criminalizing a behavior means that any force, including lethal force, is acceptable in bringing an offender to heel. See the difference?

    I still hold that the legal right to bodily autonomy is absolute. I was simply saying that just because someone is able to do something doesn’t necessarily mean that they ought to do something. See, I believe that people ought to have some freedom, ought to have the ability to make choices. I don’t need some all powerful daddy figure looking over my shoulder and making sure I always make the right choice.

    I won’t disagree–it would require getting clearer on the ways in which abortion and the cabin case are different.

    How about that in one case you’re talking about a legal human and in the other you aren’t? Does that help with clarity? Maybe the fact that in the cabin case the breast-feeding satisfies a basic need to remove milk from the breast and thus the relationship becomes more of a symbiotic one? Perhaps the fact that the cabin case doesn’t necessarily require privation of bodily autonomy to satisfy? What about the difference between chewing up some food and spoon feeding it to a infant for a few days versus having your entire body hijacked for nine months and then going through either major abdominal surgery or an incredible amount of pain? Or maybe the difference lies that the demand in one instance has no risk of death while the other has considerable risk?

    Or how about this one: unwanted pregnancies are common and abortions happen every single day in this country with the blessing of the law, the support of more than half of society, and firm grounding in constitutional principle and English common law. On the other hand the cabin example is a bad analogy that is unlikely to ever happen and it’s sole purpose is to create a wedge in which a bad faith argument can be made.

    Dance all you want, Chad, but you aren’t fooling anyone. This isn’t the first time any of us have had this discussion. We’ve seen better arguments, we’ve seen more honest arguments, and we still remain unconvinced. At the end of the day we don’t think pregnancy is punishment for being a slut, we don’t think that the theoretical rights of a potential human being trump the rights of a real one, and we don’t believe that the will of an angry God is both at work in the minutia of our lives and worth preserving.

  111. William,

    Keep the context of this discussion in mind. Look up to the top of your browser window. This isn’t a theoretical discussion of abortion, this is a discussion of why it should remain legal or be criminalized. Were talking not about the abstract moral implications of abortion but whether the coercive force of government should be brought to bare on women who choose to end a pregnancy. There might be some room for abstract discussion somewhere else, but in this discussion there is a big bold line. Either you believe it should be legal and available, or not. If you’re on the legal side, fine. If you believe it should be criminalized, well, then I hope my side has more pull.

    Well, my intitial post was a question to the author. It was a theoretical remark about her argument being appropriately detailed and complex on the one hand (correctly differentiating murder and abortion) and simplistic on the other (failure to recognize the difference between a parasite and a fetus). I’ve stated at least three times in this discussion that I am supporting a liberal abortion policy (aka “legal and available”, to use your words) but that I, while supporting it, do believe that the moral implications have to be given appropriate consideration in the debate.

    repressed Victorian

    LOL, that’s a good quote. I’m not sure whether it’s a sign of profound ignorance or profound knowledge of Kant… the stuff about his “simplistic Christian moral” makes ignorance more likeley… Kant’s philosophy is the cornerstone of rationality. If you feel that you can simply dismiss abstract rationality because it’s not supporting a particular point of view, I think then you may have a problem with that point of view. I actually think it is possible to make a rational argument for “legal and available” while at the same time accepting that no right is without limits. You seem to – at least partly – share my skepticism writing that “There might be some room for abstract discussion somewhere else.” However, by stating that –

    You’re missing my point. I’m not defining away the rights of the fetus, I’m simply ignoring them.

    you’re simply choosing to not even try making that argument, because it may involve defining particular instances in which “bodily autonomy” should not be given preference (I’m thinking in particular of late term abortions, or of embryos that may have a shot at surviving on their own with appropriate medical/social care, outside of their mother’s body).

    And you’re ok with that? You’re ok with being a slave to the vagaries of nature?

    Nature really doesn’t care about my being ok with it…

    Or is the situation different because were talking about women and fetuses, which is really shorthand for sluts and innocents?

    You know, the advantage of conceptualising abstractly is that it is entirely unnecessary to attribute social categories like “slut”.

  112. I’ve stated at least

    three times in this discussion that I am supporting a liberal abortion policy (aka “legal and available”, to use your words) but that I, while supporting it, do believe that the moral implications have to be given appropriate consideration in the debate.

    I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree there. My only interest in this discussion is law, beyond that I’m far too much of a moral relativist to be interested in an essentially masturbatory discussion about the moral implications of abortion. Ultimately, I could only really comment on my own subjective experience and how I apply my own morality in my life.

    LOL, that’s a good quote. I’m not sure whether it’s a sign of profound ignorance or profound knowledge of Kant… the stuff about his “simplistic Christian moral” makes ignorance more likeley… Kant’s philosophy is the cornerstone of rationality. If you feel that you can simply dismiss abstract rationality because it’s not supporting a particular point of view, I think then you may have a problem with that point of view. I actually think it is possible to make a rational argument for “legal and available” while at the same time accepting that no right is without limits. You seem to – at least partly – share my skepticism writing that “There might be some room for abstract discussion somewhere else.” However, by stating that –

    Heh, you are right that I’m dismissing Kant because I have a big problem with his point of view. I think a discussion of Kant is a bit off topic here. I’ll just say that Kant is a product of his time and environment, and that I have many of the same objections to him that I do to Descartes. Ultimately, a syphilitic German made the same points I would make with far more style.

    you’re simply choosing to not even try making that argument, because it may involve defining particular instances in which “bodily autonomy” should not be given preference (I’m thinking in particular of late term abortions, or of embryos that may have a shot at surviving on their own with appropriate medical/social care, outside of their mother’s body).

    I think you’re missing a nuance. I’m saying that I’m not going to bother with the discussion because even if a fetus had full rights as a human being, it would be irrelevant to my argument.

    You know, the advantage of conceptualising abstractly is that it is entirely unnecessary to attribute social categories like “slut”.

    Its only an advantage if you’re trying to avoid the unplesant places your opinions came from.

  113. William,

    Is it that you believe there is some magical force haunting those cells, something that makes them special and precious, something that elevates them above animals and makes them human? If that is your belief, why? More importantly, why should that completely subjective and unprovable notion be enshrined into the law?

    Those “cells” are human beings regardless of whether they have certain cognitive functions or not. That’s a scientific fact. Now, if you want to argue human embryos aren’t “persons” (a philosophical term) because they lack some cognitive functions, that’s fine and dandy but arguing they aren’t human beings because they don’t have certain cognitive functions shows a lack of basic knowledge regarding biology.

    From someone who claims the unborn aren’t human beings until they are born – you shouldn’t really be talking about magic since it appears you think a 9 inch journey down the birth canal magically changes a non-human into a human. Presto chango!

    Infants, people in comas, and those under anesthesia don’t have self-awareness, (the criteria you used above), so which “magical properties” make them “human?”

    Did I miss it or have you not answered what I wrote/asked in this comment above?

  114. Those “cells” are human beings regardless of whether they have certain cognitive functions or not. That’s a scientific fact. Now, if you want to argue human embryos aren’t “persons” (a philosophical term) because they lack some cognitive functions, that’s fine and dandy but arguing they aren’t human beings because they don’t have certain cognitive functions shows a lack of basic knowledge regarding biology.

    I’m pretty sure you’re playing at semantics, but even then I think you’re wrong. You’re defining cells with human DNA as being fully human. If I lost my hand in an accident, would it be a human being? How is that any different from a clump of undifferentiated cells? How is it different from a fetus that lacks a spine? A nervous system? Working internal organs? Is sperm a human being? An egg? Where does the designation “human being” come from, at what point does something qualify and at what point does it cease to qualify? These aren’t questions of science, all science can do is confirm the species of a given bit of genetic material.

    From someone who claims the unborn aren’t human beings until they are born – you shouldn’t really be talking about magic since it appears you think a 9 inch journey down the birth canal magically changes a non-human into a human. Presto chango!

    Interesting how you dodged the question and went straight for a personal attack.

    Anyway, that journey through the birth canal doesn’t change someone from a non-person to a person. It ends the use of the woman’s body. If someone was trying to kill you you would be perfectly within your right to shoot them, but if they suddenly dropped their weapon and began to run away you couldn’t shoot them in the back. See, when a fetus is in the womb, it is using he body of the mother. If the mother doesn’t want that, she can stop that use by any means necessary. Once a fetus is out of the womb, it isn’t using the mother’s body. Thats pretty much what I’ve been arguing all along. It really isn’t that complicated, and your persistent misunderstanding is starting to look disingenuous.

    Oh, and I answered your question in post #65.

    Still, this has gotten kind of irrelevant. Here we are, two men on a feminist board arguing about abortion after all the regulars have left. Right, wrong, or in between, I’m bored. Later.

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