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Common Ground

Over at Vox Nova, Morning’s Minion has asked whether a truce on the abortion issue is possible. It’s a good post — head over and read it. I was going to leave a comment over there, but MM makes a lot of points that are worth addressing and I tend to be exceptionally wordy, so I’m going to comment here and leave a trackback over at Vox Nova. And, surprisingly, I agree with just about everything MM had to say — just from the opposite side of the debate. I do think this conversation has the possibility to be fruitful.

First, I would like to thank MM for opening up this discussion. MM is obviously writing in good faith, and he/she takes a respectful and welcoming tone that is often absent in discussions about reproductive rights. I’ll ask that in the comments to this post, commenters please follow MM’s lead. I have a tendency to get snippy and frustrated when assailed by the same anti-choice comments over and over again, and I certainly get angry when I feel like someone is questioning my very right to exist as a human being fully endowed with the rights of self determination and bodily autonomy. I’d like to avoid that here, and you can all help me out on that end by keeping the discussion respectful.

So, MM’s post (which is really fantastic). My short answer: I’m not sure that we can call a truce on abortion and still satisfy both sides. I do, however, think that we can find lots of common ground.

I don’t think we can call a final truce for the reasons MM details: Pro-choicers see abortion as a right and those who are anti-abortion don’t. The legal aspects of the abortion issue will never be resolved in a way that all parties find acceptable. And a key part of the pro-life Catholic view is, as MM says, “that you can never do something that is wrong so that good might come of it.” Such a view conflicts with the way a lot of us balance right and wrong, and how we structure our own moral systems. The definition of what’s “wrong” is also not universal. Pro-choicers will always want abortion and contraception to be legal, accessible and acceptable — that is, we don’t want shame and guilt hung on reproductive choice. Pro-lifers are definitely not on board with that goal.

Our differences of opinion on morality and legal rights, though, are not the be-all end-all of the debate. MM writes:

Having said that, it is quite clear to me that abortion is related to poverty and prevailing social conditions. Declines in abortion in the US occurred most rapidly during times when poverty rates were falling– most notably under the Clinton administration (see here for detailed argument). Look at some of the statistics: 57% of women opting for abortion are economically disadvantage, and the abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women). And when asked to give reasons for abortion, three-quarters of women say that cannot afford a child.

And yet, the political pro-life movement often ignores this aspect. Not only that, it often uses the abortion issue to cover some less savoury aspects of policy. Note that when supposed pro-life candidates are elected, we see little impact on abortion, but a major advance in economic policies that foster upward redistribution. And too often, the pro-life lobby contents itself with minor victories that have little direct impact on abortion, but do rally political support. Case in point: I am pretty certain that S-CHIP will do more to lower the abortion rate in the US than the partial-birth abortion ban, which everybody pretty much agrees will do almost nothing.

I was nodding along with everything he/she wrote in that section. I’ll add that 100 percent of the country’s worst legislators for children are “pro-life.” The lack of concern for life after birth is something we’ve written about quite a bit on Feministe. It makes me really happy — and heartened — to see a self-identified pro-lifer expressing concern for the lives of born people. Pro-life people like this exist in significant numbers, but they lack the mouthpieces that the Republican-tied “pro-life” groups have. MM continues:

It is also the case that banning abortion often does not really impact on its incidence. Ireland has a robust abortion rate, even though there are no abortion providers in Ireland, because travel within the EU is so easy. I often wonder if a repeal of Roe v. Wade, when the issue gets pushed to the states, will have much impact on abortion? Personally, I doubt it, except for the very poor who cannot travel to states that allow it, and pay for it– and these are the women who are more likely to have abortions in the first place. And while I believe the repeal of Roe would be good, simply because I cannot accept abortion as a “right”, I believe a political strategy focused solely on this goal is fundamentally misplaced. We need to create the conditions that would encourage women not to have abortions in the first place.

Could this be a point of common ground among Catholics and pro-choice feminists, since we are not really going to change each others minds on this matter? If we would focus less on the coercive side, would you be willing to work to minimize the abortion rate?

Absolutely. This is what pro-choicers have been saying all along. The problem, though, is that the mainstream, monied and well-connected anti-choice groups don’t take this tack. It’s pro-choice groups and pro-choice individuals who support comprehensive sexual health education, universal health care, aid to low-income women with dependent children, affordable daycare, equal pay, children’s health care, Head Start and after-school programs, increased educational funding, and on and on. So that’s where MM loses me — when he/she asks, “Would you be willing to work to minimize the abortion rate,” I think to myself, “What does s/he think we’re doing?”

I would love — love — to see pro-choice feminists and pro-life religious folks work together on projects to expand health care access, to create safety nets for families, and to provide pregnant women with the resources they need. In my ideal world, there would be whole networks of crisis pregnancy center-esque organizations where women could go for holistic and affordable pregnancy help and care, without judgmentalism or coercion or an anti-choice agenda.

The really sticky issue — even stickier than abortion — is contraception. Contraception is the most effective way to prevent pregnancy (other than simply never having sex, which is pretty unlikely and pretty undesirable for most people). The Catholic pro-life view (and, increasingly, the Evangelical view) is that contraception wrong and/or tantamount to abortion. That argument stems from the view that life begins at fertilization, and there is a teeny tiny and highly debatable chance that hormonal birth control might prevent a fertilized egg from implanting. Anti-contraception pro-lifers aren’t going to change their minds on that, and contraception access is not part of their plan to decrease the abortion rate. It is central to the pro-choice plan. I’m not sure that gap can be bridged.

MM concludes:

We need to tackle poverty and economic conditions. We need universal health care urgently. I also think we need to work on the breakdown in family life in some of our communities. We may need to think outside the box. I have proposed on this blog that the government provide subsidies to women to carry their children to term, and provide sizeable financial incentives for adoption. I was attacked for doing so, and maybe there are good reasons for not pursuing this in the realm of policy. But we need to start putting our money where our mouth is. Otherwise, the pointless “culture war” that benefits nobody will keep raging.

I disagree about the government subsidy policy, but that aside, MM is right that the Culture Wars thing is silly and unproductive. But my issue is that I see pro-choicer people, groups and politicians putting aside abortion politics and supporting things like economic justice and universal health care. I don’t see pro-life politicians and organizations doing that. I can list a litany of things the pro-life leadership can do to lower the abortion rate; clearly, MM can, too.

So I’m left with the question, “What else can pro-choicers do to lower the abortion rate while staying true to our rights-based principles that we aren’t doing right now?”


85 thoughts on Common Ground

  1. There is no meaningful room for compromise.

    If a guaranteed minimum standard of living would reduce unwanted pregnancy and pregnancy that is unwanted for economic reasons, great. The caucus of people that favor a serious welfare state and also oppose abortion is, however, small.

    Contraception sure does reduce abortion, but as you point out, the core of the antis are anti-contraception and pro-punishment.

    The antis’ preferred method of pregnancy prevention is abstinence: which has not worked effectively anywhere in human history.

    This talk of “compromise” is really just a rump of disaffected people within the pro-life movement who are ashamed to see who they are standing with. The author seems to hope that there’s a new center forming, but I don’t see it. I just see some thinking people whose views put them in a small club. In fact, I think they are no more harbingers of “truce” than the existence of log cabin Republicans.

  2. Thanks for pointing out that post, Jill. I think it’s a great post, but, for me, it actually highlights just how improbably any kind of truce actually is. It’s not just the post itself- which, I agree, appears quite sincere and refreshingly honest and respectful- but the issues that it raises, and the comments it recieved. We’re in a major stalemate, and we don’t even agree on what the problem is.

    Pro-lifers are completely and utterly opposed to the idea that abortion might be a woman’s right. The most effective way of reducing the abortion rate, though, is through better access to and education about birth control methods. If the same people who are opposed to abortion are also opposed to increasing access to and education about contraception, what methods are we left with?

    It’s frustrating, because I’d love to see some progress made, but if a pro-lifer is starting from a position of being opposed to abortion and being opposed to the best tool we have effectively preventing unwanted pregnancies, I’m not sure how much real middle ground can be found, because we’re forced to move to the third step down in order to find any common ground, while still working on the other things we’re already doing.

    Pro-choicers are frequently already working to get better sex-ed into the schools, and to increase access to safe, reliable contraception, and a lot of us are the same people who are trying to raise awareness of the myriad issues associated with poverty and lack of access to resources like healthcare, or housing, etc. We’re already trying to do many of the things that would lead to fewer abortions, from what I can see.

    It’s not that I disagree with MM’s concerns, but I disagree in what is happening. MM says Too often, those who support abortion and those who do not simply talk past each other and, in the blog world, that so often means preaching to the converted and scoring points among a close circle of like-minded individuals.

    I mean, yeah, that happens, but I’m not sure that’s what we’re trying to do, or that it’s the only thing that happens. Personally, I’m not trying to convince an avid pro-lifer of anything if I engage in the debate. I know that I’m not going to change a hard-line pro-lifer of anything in this debate. We’re not even really talking about the same thing. I’m coming to the table thinking about a woman’s rights over her own body, they’re coming to the table thinking about the fetus’ death as murder. Many of the comments on that post put it into very sharp relief for me: we’re not even in the same book, let alone on the same page.

    When I engage in the debate, I do so with the understanding that there are probably people out there in the gray area in the middle- people who aren’t sure what they believe or what they think, yet. I assume that there are people out there who are maybe struggling to figure out what side they fall on: maybe abortion troubles them because of the death of the fetus, but they also object to forcing women to carry pregnancies. My goal is to try to convince that middle ground- not the people on the opposite side of the fence.

    And the thing is, I can sort of understand where some of that comes from- if you really believe that abortion is murder, how can you, in good conscience, make concessions? If I really believed that something was murder, I know I couldn’t- just like I can’t, in good conscience, make concessions when it comes to abortion. I really believe that a woman’s right to bodily autonomy is more important than any potential claim that the fetus might have on her body, and pointing out that the fetus is innocent doesn’t change that.

    I know that’s not really very heartening for people looking for a middle ground, but there it is.

  3. No, there really is no compromise between the two groups, because our beliefs are fundamentally different. If we pro-lifers believe that the unborn is a human being worth protecting, and pro-choicers believe that it really doesn’t matter—the woman has a right to her “bodily integrity”— then we shall always be clashing.

    I will make note of one thing. When Hillary Clinton, in her effort to have a more conservative image, mentioned “working together”, she meant compromise had to be made. So my question to pro-choicers would be this: what are you going to compromise? Let’s say, just for example, that pro-lifers would be willing to concede more access to contraception with no limits. Would you guys be willing to give us anything? Parental notification? Late term abortion bans?

    My point being: pro-lifers are constantly accused of not budging, when I think that we actually do, especailly in the framing of our bills. I have found that the pro-choice movement continually insists that they have abortion-on-demand with no limits “and without apology”. So how can pro-lifers be motivated to work with you guys if you won’t concede even the most reasonable restriction on abortion? Why are we expected to change our supposed “anti-contraception” ways if you guys won’t give anything in return?

  4. So I’m left with the question, “What else can pro-choicers do to lower the abortion rate while staying true to our rights-based principles that we aren’t doing right now?”

    I think a big part of the answer is true for both sides — stop conflating contraception and abortion. The pro-life side conflates them as both violating God’s plan for reproduction, while the pro-choice side conflates them as both violating women’s self-determination with regards their lives and bodies.

    And from within their own framework, each side is absolutely right. Which is a big reason for the impasse.

    The value in separating them out for the purpose of dialogue is that it is precisely where any possible compromise lies.

    The right makes contracepted sex exactly as grave an evil as abortion. Pro-choice people rightly point this out as proof that the issues isn’t pregancy, it is sex itself. But I personally know more than a few people who are opposed to abortion in all cases, but see contraception as a personal choice (with whatever moral consequences) because it doesn’t involve that fertilized potential future person.

    And I know very few people who place choice as a high value who see abortion as a right but don’t see contraception as one as well.

    I’m not saying that pro-choice people should give up their conviction that a woman’s right to her body includes the choice of ending a pregnancy, nor am I saying that pro-life people have to give up their conviction that life, once begun, is sacred and to be protected.

    But the common ground that seems so hard to find seems to me to be the place where the issue of terminating a pregnancy doesn’t arise because it never happened. Holding eliminating all unplanned or unwanted pregnancies as the goal. It isn’t 100% acheivable, but it seems to me something that the vast majority of people on both sides could either agree on, or be forced to clearly change their rhetoric.

  5. Nathan, I think you missed the point.

    The argument isn’t, “You give us x, we’ll give you y.” We aren’t bartering, we’re working together toward the common goal of decreasing the abortion rate. Bans on “partial-birth” abortion and parental notification don’t really do that; they only make abortion riskier.

  6. The essential fear is that compromise on what might be ‘reasonable restriction’ will lead inevitably to gradualism, i.e. more and more restrictive limits on abortion. Furthermore, there is no sense (at least from my perspective) that there is a unitary platform for compromise on the pro-life side – I imagine there’s strong constituencies which would vehemently oppose compromise over sex education and contraception.

  7. Jill, I didn’t miss the point, you just proved mine. If we are willing to promote contraception (the major way you believe we can decrease abortions) which one of “our ways” will you help us with? Apparently, from your comment to me, not by having late-term abortion bands or parental notification. Are we only limited to what the pro-choicers deem as legitimate ways to decrease abortions?

    All this to say and confirm: there isn’t really room for common ground here.

  8. Will – the thing is, this wasn’t a discussion of a compromise, but rather common ground. I.e. neither side is going to compromise on our basic opinions about abortion, but that doesn’t mean that there are some things that we can agree on.

    A pro-life compromise on contraception would lower the abortion rate. That’s supposed to be your goal, right? What about better medical care for children, better prenatal coverage, improving the economic conditions of poor families with children? In what way would any of these be a concession on your part?

    That’s the funny thing. It’s the people who don’t see abortion as an inherent evil who are doing the most to try to prevent abortions at the systemic level. The people who are supposedly against abortion are working individually (protesters and CPCs), and by fiat – simple outlawing of some kinds of abortions. Neither of these does anything to lower the rate of women actually desiring abortions – which is when you get into the bodily integrity issues.

    In my ideal world, the only abortions would be those that occur from unavoidable crisis pregnancies. But that would be because the other pregnancies had never happened in the first place, not because women had been guilted, terrorized, or otherwise forced into bearing a child she didn’t want.

  9. A very worthwhile read and great response, Jill. Unfortunately, the militant anti-choice comments on that site are just making me depressed. Nope, it doesn’t seem they’ll ever be a “truce” between two sides that feel such an intense righteousness behind their own position. However, if more pro-lifers could move past the rhetoric and actually examine what kind of policies (reproductive aside) they’re supporting, and how they could promote a “culture of life” for ALL women and children, not just the “pre-born,” I think something productive could come of opening these kind of dialogues.

    “In my ideal world, there would be whole networks of crisis pregnancy center-esque organizations where women could go for holistic and affordable pregnancy help and care, without judgmentalism or coercion or an anti-choice agenda.”

    Yes. Confession time — I worked in a “crisic pregnancy center” myself way back in high school. Besides being Catholic and conflicted about abortion then (but still technically pro-choice), I believed in that place because I knew their *primary*, if misguided, goal was a benevolent one. There was a reluctant understanding from many of the women who worked there that, no, they could not stop some abortions from happening no matter how abhorrent they found them. So unlike all the CPC horror stories I’ve heard of propaganda, shaming, calling of parents (and I’m not denying they’re true, it just wasn’t my personal experience — in fact there were strict rules in this center *not* to contact anyone but the woman/girl in question) they focused much of their attention on those who unequivocally *wanted* to go through with their pregnancies. They were there to hand out donated diapers, formula, clothing; to hang up holiday pictures of the babies; to put together social and support groups for families that wanted them.

    I look back and disagree with their pro-life policies on an irreconciliable moral level. But I know that these were complex, dedicated, caring people (not to mention surprisingly liberal on a number of other issues) and I too hope to reach “common ground” with people like them on the basic values of health and community we all *should* agree on.

    “Let’s say, just for example, that pro-lifers would be willing to concede more access to contraception with no limits. Would you guys be willing to give us anything?”

    “Give you anything”? Increased contraception = less abortions. If you believe in saving babies (and not just shaming loose women), that’s a win for you. I didn’t realize opening a dialogue meant rigid my side/your side negotiations like it’s some kind of abstract war of egos and not a literal matter of life and death.

  10. Jill, I didn’t miss the point, you just proved mine. If we are willing to promote contraception (the major way you believe we can decrease abortions) which one of “our ways” will you help us with?

    If I think that babies come from storks, does that make it so? If I think that the best way to decrease the abortion rate is to give everyone a puppy, is that viable policy?

    It’s not about “your way” or “my way.” It’s about proven ways to decrease the abortion rate, of which contraception is one. Outlawing and limiting abortion, on the other hand, doesn’t impact the abortion rate much at all.

    That said, as Tapetum pointed out, this is about common ground. If contraception is against your moral views, then contraception access isn’t common ground.

  11. I see Jill beat me to part of my point.

    Will, I will also note that the preferred pro-life ways of preventing abortions seem to all center on somehow controlling the decision-making of the woman, rather than on either expanding her options or making carrying out the pregnancy more attractive. Why? Why are those the only “pro-life” ways you seem to acknowledge?

  12. Thanks, Jill, for your kind response. The more I think about it, the more I feel there is scope for common ground.

    One thing, though: in Catholic circles, there is a big distinction made between law and morality. Law is supposed to concern itself with the common good, not persona virtue. Thomas Aquinas himself argued that prostitution should be legal, even though he (obviously!) believed it to be immoral. Prominent Jesuit theologian John Courtney Murray (the man behind Vatican II’s crucial “Declaration on Religious Liberty”) came to the same conclusion when it came to the decriminalization of contraceptive devices in the 1960s, emphasizing the difference between public and private morality. In Murray’s view, people should be granted as much freedom as possible, and that freedom should only be restricted when absolutely necessary. In other words, the coercive function of law should only come into play in narrow circumstances, and should focus exclusively on safeguarding “public peace, public morality, and justice”. So, on contraception at least, the Church would regard contraception as immoral (and you can’t do something immoral to avoid a greater evil), but outside the scope of law.

    Some would argue that the same is true of abortion, but it is difficult to apply Murray’s reasoning directly to something that does certainly pertain to justice and public morality. At the same time, not all matters of public morality are fitting subjects for criminalization. If, for example, we believe that criminalizing abortion will not reduce its incidence, while at the same time as gravely threatening women’s health, then a rush to criminalize would be a bad idea. It would then be best to prevent abortions by lowering the demand for abortion, which is where we could find common ground.

    I realize we will not change each other’s mind. Not only do we disagree on the morality of abortion, but we seem to have a different philosophical basis for establishing moral norms. Catholics believe in a more objective moral reasoning, whereby certain things are wrong no matter the circumstances, and the right to life is a pre-eminent right. To put in simply, you cannot take one innocent life to save a million (which is why the Church will never support the use of nuclear weapons). But again, this pertains to the acting moral agent, not to the legal framework establishing the common good of the community. In an ideal world, there would be no nuclear weapons, but they are there, and we should strive to minimize thir use. Likewise with abortion: in an ideal world, it would never happen. What we need to do is minimize its occurrence. I’m getting into this detail simply to show that we have different philosophical understandings of what is at stake, but that believing something is always wrong does not automatically imply that the law is the best way to deal with it. I hope this makes some kind of sense, and that I am not too much of a windbag!

  13. Tapetum: Good points. And on a general outlook of “common ground”, yes, we have common ground. We want people to live relatively comfortable lives and be safe.

    The problem I think arises when, in order to “lower abortion rates”, one side wants to make abortions/birth control more readily available when the other side doesn’t really feel comfortable with that.

  14. MM also immediately loses me when the discussion turns to “what are pro-choice people going to do to prevent abortion,” not to mention the idea that we think there can never be “too many abortions, based on the idea that we think women have a right to abortion. Well, we repealed prohibition. I think that’s a good thing. People now have a legal right to consume alcohol. And yet, I don’t think that it’s a good idea for large numbers of the population to be in a perpetual state of intoxication. Of course there can be too many abortions. Just because we think that it’s a right doesn’t mean that we think it’s the best option for all women. Women who want to carry to term should be able to. And for women who don’t, abortion is the second best option to prevention.

    And as you stated, organizations like Planned Parenthood do more to prevent abortion than any “informed consent” laws ever have. I do think that MM probably wrote this post in good faith, but I really do resent the lack of research on what pro-choice people actually do in favor of falling back on propaganda.

    As for what we can do that we’re not currently? I’m not sure. We’re already providing contraception and trying to provide more. We’re working on sex ed. We’re working towards universal health care, increased welfare benefits, job and education opportunities for the poor and removing the stigma from single motherhood. There’s a hell of a lot there that hasn’t yet been accomplished, but I know for a fact that we’re trying. Feminste tries every day, as I do on my blog. Even a lot of Dems in Congress are trying, but they’re facing a petulant child with a veto pen.

    But anytime the other side wants to come over and join us in these specific endeavors, they’re more than welcome from my view. I imagine that we’d get things done a lot more quickly if they did, too.

  15. Tapetum: to answer your question in comment 12, I don’t think that stopping the woman from choosing abortions are the only ways that pro-lifers believe in eliminating abortions. We do offer services and choices to women (though, as you pointed out, we do do it on an individual basis). Our movement—and I don’t totally agree with this, by the way—is mostly a protest movement, protesting the current laws out there.

  16. One thing, though: in Catholic circles, there is a big distinction made between law and morality. Law is supposed to concern itself with the common good, not persona virtue.

    Disclosure: I was raised Catholic and am fallen away for any number of feminist reasons that I’m sure many regular commenters here would be familiar with.

    This is a very interesting comment. Law concerning itself for the common good – is that specific to church law or is that church law commenting on secular or state law? For example, there are church laws about marriage and annulments that are different from secular laws about marriage and divorce. Are the arguments within Catholic doctrine about contraception and abortion church law or morality?

  17. Will, then how would you go about lowering the abortion rate, if not with increased contraception?

    It’s proven pretty clearly that outlawing abortion does not do it, nor do parental notification laws or late term abortion bans.

    What have you got?

  18. I posted over there. I personally have very little respect for religions that believe you can’t do something “wrong” for “good” later. That means that inaction is better than action. That means WWII shouldn’t have been fought (cuz, you know, killing is wrong).
    And that means that they’ll never support using contraception even though it would prevent “killing of the unborn” later.
    I don’t think there is a middle ground. Like that archbishop Chaput fellow sas, it’s ok to compromise with us as long as they’re working towards the eventual goal of taking our rights away. I mean, “saving human life”.

  19. Nathan, here’s where you lose me: Late term abortion bans

    Let’s just say, hypothetically, that all abortions after viability (which, for the sake of argument, we’ll put at 24 weeks, or 6 months) are illegal. (Which, by the way, they are in some states.)

    Would you allow exceptions? Would you allow exceptions when the baby has died in the womb, and the “abortion” procedure is simply removing the body? What about when the baby turns out to have a truly life-threatening defect (such as anencephaly–a lack of a brain) that means he/she will be absolutely unable to live outside of the womb? What if bearing that child will kill or forever ruin the health of the mother? Should we force the woman to bear that child–a child who has no chance of survival, or whose birth will kill or permanently disable its mother, just because the problem wasn’t caught sooner?

    Banning late-term abortions completely doesn’t work, b/c some complications can’t be caught early on. Most abortions take place in the first trimester, when the so-called “baby” is just a bunch of cells. Banning the rare late-term abortions endangers lives.

  20. Let’s just say, hypothetically, that all abortions after viability (which, for the sake of argument, we’ll put at 24 weeks, or 6 months) are illegal. (Which, by the way, they are in some states.)

    FYI: This isn’t a hypothetical, it’s national law. Abortions post-viability are generally illegal — the only exception is health or life.

  21. The pro-choice side does not have to compromise. The pro-choice side IS compromise . . . or the kind of compromise that pro-lifers who want compromise are already talking about. Especially if we look at “pro-choice” as “reproductive justice.” Repro justice advocates support legal abortion, yes, but also contraception, sex ed, better health care, etc, so forth. The question for me is if the larger “pro-life” movement is willing to actually compromise by letting go of the goal of criminalized abortion and moving toward actually preventing abortion through non-coercive measures.

    Furthermore, in response to “Catholic pro-lifers” (and I’m putting on my Catholic hat here), the VAST VAST majority of Catholics support contraception and comprehensive sex ed in public schools (something like 97% of sexually active Catholic women will use contraception at some point). It’s the hierarchy and the very loud fringe that keeps pushing this anti-contraceptive mentality. The Catholic laity needs to find creative ways to speak out on this issue.

    Also, and I really truly believe this even though I know it sounds snarky, “pro-lifers” must must MUST, before I can talk “compromise,” fully and honestly acknowledge the humanity of grown women and the sacredness of their lives. Too often the fetus is elevated and the woman who is carrying it is not even considered, or she is peripherally, alternately as a victim or a whore. How often she is forgotten as a sacred life.

  22. If we are willing to promote contraception (the major way you believe we can decrease abortions) which one of “our ways” will you help us with?

    Contraception IS the way to decrease the demand for abortions. We don’t “believe” it; it’s a fact. Contraception prevents pregnancy. No pregnancy = no abortion. What’s the problem? It’s PRO CHOICERS who promote policies that lower the abortion rate.

    Half the problem here is that pro-choicers argue their position using reason while (many) pro-lifers’ arguments are based on faith. They don’t feel comfortable with contraception for religious reasons that should have no bearing on the rest of the population.

  23. PS to Morning’s Minion,

    Even though I have a sneaky suspicion we disagree on any number of things, I appreciate your brief and clear explanation of law vs. morality in the Catholic tradition. I’m a first year Moral Theology student and don’t have it so eloquently spelled out yet. 🙂

  24. I don’t see any room for compromise either. I just can’t, in good faith, compromise with someone who thinks that my body and my life is less that a fertilized egg.

    As for common ground, I’m sure there could be something. Like the universal healthcare, increased social welfare, etc. But I don’t know of a single ‘pro-life’ politician or policy maker who also agrees with those positions, either, much less working to make contraceptives more widely available. So, other than the very few individuals who think that abortion and contraception are wrong and still agree (with their votes and their wallets) that increasing social welfare are good things, even common ground seems unlikely.

    Plus, even with the common ground, I couldn’t readily trust or work comfortably with someone who will in the next instance work to take away my rights.

  25. I feel as though there should be common ground, but isn’t. I honestly can’t wrap my head around the anti-contraception stance. Anti-abortion I can completely understand; I think it’s reasonable and rational to look at what we know and come to the conclusion that abortion is a moral wrong even though I disagree with that. This is true of many conservative viewpoints, really: I understand not wanting excessive gun regulation. I understand not wanting more services at the expense of higher taxes. I understand not wanting my religion to be restricted in the public sphere. I understand wanting more options for endangering my own life if I feel like living on the edge. I don’t agree with any of those, but I think they’re rational. They come from sensible conceptions of the world.

    Anti-contraception, on the other hand, just blows my mind. I honestly cannot understand how anyone, even someone who really, really, really doesn’t want other people to have sex, can stand up and say, “Since I can’t put tracking bracelets on everyone in the world and zap them when they have lustful thoughts, I’m going to make sure no one can be safe (barrier methods) or prevent pregnancy, because that will”–what? It won’t keep them from having sex, it certainly won’t reduce abortions, it won’t really encourage marriage, it doesn’t help anyone. It only hurts people.

    Contraception reduces abortions. Why isn’t everyone on board with it? I honestly, truly can’t understand that.

  26. Thank you for giving us an all too rare view of non-crazy pro-lifers.

    To me the difference is whether you want to reduce the number of abortions (pro-life view) or reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies (and unwanted children- the pro-choice view). A comprehensive pro-choice view has the happy effect of both reducing abortions and unwanted pregnancies, the pro-life view does not do either and really does focus on evil women having sex and not wanting to take the consequences.

    If more people were like MM and looked at social justice as a way of decreasing abortions and unwanted pregnancies, then maybe there would be common ground. But that is not what we have to work with.

  27. I’ve known pro-lifers who recognized that banning abortion doesn’t eliminate it, and believe in preventing unwanted pregnancies through contraception and sex ed and giving poor women options to lower the abortion rate. There’s a lot of common ground between pro-choicers and people like that. Unfortunately, many pro-lifers believe contraception, or at least hormonal birth control (the most common and effective type), is just as bad as abortion, because it could, maybe-in-theory-possibly, kill a fertilized egg, or because God said condoms are bad, or whatever. And of course, they believe sex ed should consist of “don’t do it”, and the government shouldn’t help poor people. With those pro-lifers there’s nothing to agree on.

  28. Johanna is correct: the policies pursued by advocates for reproductive justice are those that will best reduce unwanted pregnancy. I am willing to reduce unwanted pregnancy. I am not willing to compromise on the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

    So that is the compromise. The antis have chosen, en masse, to reject the compromise in favor of absolutism and radicalism.

  29. If we are willing to promote contraception (the major way you believe we can decrease abortions) which one of “our ways” will you help us with?

    Nathan: This is strictly my opinion, no one else’s, but…I would be willing to go with a ban on elective abortion after 24 weeks gestation if and ONLY IF the following conditions were met:
    1. Abortion were readily available and cheap or free in the first 14-18 weeks of gestation. (The exact length of time before which restrictions can reasonably be set might be open to debate.)
    2. Abortion were legal at any time in cases of risk to life or health of the mother (yes, there is some wiggle room in the definition of “risk to health” which I would be prepared to discuss further if you’re willing to not shut the conversation down by claiming that that’s simply a way of making all abortions legal)
    3. Abortion were legal throughout pregnancy for fetal anomolies inconsistent with life ex utero. If the baby’s going to die within a week of birth, possibly in terrible pain, why not let it die before it knows anything about it?

    Note that this is actually giving fetuses rights that no born person has, i.e. the right to use someone’s body against her will, but I’d make at least the tentative claim that if abortion is readily available to all then NOT getting one for 4-5 months after becoming pregnant is a sort of implicit permission for the fetus to stay.

    These are just my first thoughts, I’m sure that someone can improve on the plan. Thoughts, anyone?

  30. Let’s just say, hypothetically, that all abortions after viability (which, for the sake of argument, we’ll put at 24 weeks, or 6 months) are illegal. (Which, by the way, they are in some states.)

    FYI: This isn’t a hypothetical, it’s national law. Abortions post-viability are generally illegal — the only exception is health or life.

    Jill –

    I’m confused; the only national abortion law I’m aware of is the “Partial Birth Abortion Ban” which 1) does not differentiate between pre/post viability and 2) has no exceptions.

  31. It’s so frustrating when pro-lifers act as though the idea of reducing the abortion rate by promoting policies to reduce unwanted pregnancies is something that pro-choicers have never considered.

    You only have to spend a few minutes browsing a feminist blog such as this one or the websites of pro-choice organisations to see that they strongly advocate reducing unwanted pregnancies through contraception and other means, thus lowering the abortion rate. That pro-lifers think that working to ‘minimize the abortion rate’ is something totally novel for us shows how little they bother to find out about what we believe and what we are doing.

  32. Will, as has been pointed out, the concept of “compromise” in this case isn’t the I’ll-scratch-your-back, you-scratch-mine variety; that works when picking dinner and a movie, but this is an issue of life and health and liberty. “Compromise,” in this case, means finding our common ground – what we both want, in the end – and agreeing to work toward that.

    In this case, the thing that both pro-choicers and pro-lifers want is fewer abortions. We can agree on that, right? Pro-lifers want every pregnancy to end in birth (noble, if unrealistic) and pro-choicers want to cut down on the number of traumatic medical procedures that women must undergo (much as we’d hope to reduce the number of heart transplants that people would undergo).

    The obvious (to many of us, anyway) way to meet that common goal in a way that doesn’t violate either of our values is to prevent pregnancy through contraception and comprehensive sex education (including, but in no way limited to, information about abstinence) and to make it possible for women to carry pregnancies to term through affordable pre- and post-natal health care and financial, situational, and emotional assistance.

    If those things get you closer to your pro-life goal of reducing the number of abortions, why would you demand a condition for them? It seems like shooting yourself in the foot to concede that contraception gets you closer to your goal, but only if we’ll give up something that gets us farther away from ours*.

    (*For some reason, you mentioned both increased access to abortion and birth control as ways to cut down on abortions – obviously, only one of those would be effective in pursuing that goal. Increased access to abortion meets the goals of giving women control over their lives and bodies and preserving their health, which, as goals that are ours and not yours, don’t fall into the category of “common ground.”)

  33. harlemjd-

    The Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act (PBA) is the only federal law regulating abortion. However, federal law is not the only regulatory tools that our legal system employs — we also look to judicial decisions. According to the United States Supreme Court in Roe, viability is the cut-off point for elective abortion. After Roe, Casey gave states greater leeway in regulating abortion law.

    The PBA outlaws a single procedure, not all late-term abortions. In other words, it doesn’t prevent any abortions at all — it just makes doctors use another method which may be less safe for their particular patient. That’s why they could refuse to include a health clause (if I remember correctly, they did include a life clause).

    States now regulate their own cut-off points, with the basic stipulation that abortion be legal in the earliest stages. NY’s cut-off point is one of the latest; it’s somewhere around 24 weeks.

  34. In the spirit of the age, I suppose I could offer points of agreement:
    1) I generally agree with the sentiment against abstinance programs. A number of them are truly awful. I’m not a huge fan of school directed sex ed either though. Many of those programs are truly awful as well. While AIDS and STD prevention are worthwhile, making kids scared isn’t good nor representative of the behavior adjusted risks.
    2) I’m not trying to get back to the 1950s or at least as they were idealized. Wanting to express oneself sexually is a natural desire. From there, we will probably disagree.

    Lacking familiar with the folks here, is this site in the camp that the pornography industry has harmed women or is a legitimate pursuit. I know there are feminists on both sides and while not pertinent to this exchange, I am curious.

  35. The problem I think arises when, in order to “lower abortion rates”, one side wants to make abortions/birth control more readily available when the other side doesn’t really feel comfortable with that.

    I think this sentence illustrates why we’re going to have problems communicating with you in any meaningful way

    First of all, saying that we want to lower abortion rates (why the quotes, btw?) by making “abortions/birth control” more readily available makes little sense. Do you mean to equate abortion to other forms of birth control? Because while abortion definitely is birth control, other forms of birth control are not abortion, and if you consider them morally equivalent, communication is already breaking down – and moreover, you’re working with faulty information.

    Second, either side’s “comfort” is really irrelevant. The abortion rate is decreased by widespread sex education and availability of birth control. This is proven fact. If you consider it a “concession” to allow these things, then I’d have to question if your intentions are actually pro-life, or if it’s more important to you that people be forced by law (whether those laws restrict actual behavior, or “just” availability of goods, services, and information) to live a life that you consider to be “moral”.

  36. I have an online friend who’s a hardcore pro-lier, but she’s saner than most. The strange thing is, she believes that there are doctors everywhere who will abort 3rd trimester feti for no apparent reason. Where she got that idea, I have no idea. She knew someone online who claims to have aborted her 18week pregnancy because it was the wrong gender. I told her that was highly unlikely, considering I doubt most, if any doctors would do that. She didn’t believe me….

    So in my experience we’re dealing with a lot of people who have no basic concept of reality. Can there be “compromise” with them?

    And Nathan, last I checked you effectively can’t have a truly elective abortion past viability, and often before that. And in many places in this country, it’s nigh on impossible to get an abortion. Are you happy with that?

  37. Lacking familiar with the folks here, is this site in the camp that the pornography industry has harmed women or is a legitimate pursuit. I know there are feminists on both sides and while not pertinent to this exchange, I am curious.

    Ha, oh man… this has potential to open up a whole ‘nother inter-feminist flamewar.

    MZ, this site has seen more than a few all-out online brawls over porn. And blowjobs. And plastic surgery. And sex work. Those topics are pretty much guaranteed to lead to very, very different views, and very heated conversations. The feminist arguments over those issues have never been solved here.

    I don’t know Zuzu and Piny’s specific views, but as far as mine goes, I dislike porn. But I think that the porn industry has harmed women and is a legitimate pursuit. I don’t think that imaging people having sex is inherently bad. However, I think that the porn industry, as it stands, produces content that is incredibly misogynist. However, I don’t think that my own distaste for porn should inform everyone else’s ability to access and participate in it. I don’t support outlawing or banning pornography. I do support agitating for greater gender equality and wider respect for women’s bodies, which, if fully applied, would lead to a very different kind of porn (if any) than what we have now. I also support the individual women who work in the porn industry. I think they should have the same rights as any other employee, and that we need to listen to their voices in our discussions of pornography. But I do recognize that porn reflects the way our culture views women and sex. And that view is not very healthy.

    So, short answer: I don’t see the “porn wars” as something with two sides. It’s not a black-and-white issue.

  38. Also, here’s an idea for “compromise”

    Why don’t the pro-lifers start working towards reducing miscarriage, stillbirth, and neo-natal death. Miscarriage kills LOTS more embryos and feti than abortion, as soemthing like 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage (you usually don’t know about most of them as they’re so early…my period was a week late twice, but that came with lots of positive pregnancy tests).

    If the pro-lifers worked with doctors to start making it standard practice to test for causes of recurrent pregnancy loss after the 2nd, instead of a minimum 3rd often more miscarriages, more feti would be saved. If the pro-lifers worked with the March Of Dimes to reduce prematurity, more babies would be saved. If pro-lifers worked to make clinics available in low-income areas, there’d be higher access to pre-natal care, and therefore fewer late-term miscarriages/stillbirths, preterm births, and neo-natal deaths.

    How’s that for a compromise? Stop focusing on the women who don’t want children and instead work with those who do.

    *Today is Infant and Pregnancy Loss awareness day. I personally have had 3 pregnancies and 3 miscarriages in 9 months. I believe at least one of them could have been prevented with better prenatal care (testing of progesterone levels). I have never made it past the 2nd month of pregnancy, and it’s bloody likely at this point that I never will. After 3 miscarriages, I have less than a 50% chance of a live birth in my life. After 4, the chance goes down to less than 5%. Something can be done to fix this.

  39. Seraph-

    Second, either side’s “comfort” is really irrelevant. The abortion rate is decreased by widespread sex education and availability of birth control. This is proven fact.

    This is the crux of the issue for me. Do we want “compromise”? Do we want give and take? Or do we really, truly want to reduce the number of abortions through non-coercive methods?

    If the latter is the case, then access to contraception and comprehensive sex-ed are going to be a large part of it, whether or not some groups like it.

  40. So in my experience we’re dealing with a lot of people who have no basic concept of reality. Can there be “compromise” with them?

    That’s a big part of the problem, IMO. They don’t have their facts straight in the first place – and that’s something that needs to change before we start “giving” them stuff.

    It seems like shooting yourself in the foot to concede that contraception gets you closer to your goal, but only if we’ll give up something that gets us farther away from ours.

    No kidding. This is what really frustrates me about lifers. “Oh, yeah, contraception works to prevent pregnancy… but, but… we want to curtail some of your liberties!!!!”

  41. There absolutely is common ground, with this set of thoughtful pro-lifers. Making it easier for women to continue their pregnancies, if that’s what they choose to do, is something we can agree on. That means more equal working conditions for both sexes, better parental leave policies, better health care for everyone, etc.

    My husband worked hard on a campaign at a university to provide subsidized daycare for children of students at a dollar a day. He was working at it from the perspective of the organization that represented mature and part-time students. He approached the Catholic students organization and used the common-ground arguments to garner their enthusiastic support. Many of his lefty friends thought he had “sold out” for that move.

  42. Fair enough. Thanks for the indulgence.

    ~~~~~

    I think the common ground sought is the society we all wish to live. This is where we can agree for example that access to health care is civil if not human right. We can possibly even agree that we need to bring the troops home from Iraq. What would it take for us to work together on those areas of agreement? For me in particular, I’m not sure how much work we can do together, because I think there are other areas where we are far apart. We probably agree on a half dozen major policy items, but our philosophical differences are pretty deep I think.

    I don’t think MM or Jill for that matter were necessarily suggesting surrender on any items. As far as politics goes, I think it would be part of the broader democratic strategy of supporting candidates that can win. Democrats running in say Montana would be allowed to be anti-gun control and support parental notification. That same candidate probably wouldn’t win New York on the democratic ticket, but he’s running in Montana. I imagine he referring to something like the liberterian and conservative compromise during the cold war.

  43. Democrats already do support a slew of restrictions on abortion, whether or not we “allow” them to.

    I’m not sure what you mean by asking what it would take for us to work together on bringing the troops back from Iraq. There are any number of organizations dedicated to doing just that, and none of them have an abortion ideology test.

  44. What I don’t get is why pro-lifers have never understood the gist of Roe v. Wade. The gist was that I can go to a doctor’s office and get sound medical advice without a bunch of non-participants getting in the way of any decision that I make. That is the right that was granted, it was not a right to skip to an abortion clinic everytime I was stupid.

    No one wants to have aborion as a first line solution to unwanted pregnancies. No sane person wants more unneeded surgery in their lives. What women do want is to be respected as adults and moral agents in our own rights, free to make mistakes and free to correct them. I don’t want a right to free abortion, I want the right to be an adult.

  45. Here’s a big part of the problem:

    There are some people who believe that abortion itself is a moral evil and that it’s a moral good to reduce the number of abortions, even if that reduction comes through things that they find a little iffy, like contraception and sex education.

    There’s a much larger — or at least much more vocal — group that thinks that sex is a moral evil and anything that makes it easier to escape pregnancy and disease as a result of having sex should be banned to prevent that moral evil from occurring without the proper punishment. When, for example, a woman ends up in lifelong poverty after having a child, that’s not a bug, that’s a feature!

    Until we can get some segment of the population over the idea that sex in and of itself is something worthy of punishment, there’s no hope of any kind of useful “compromise” when it comes to abortion.

  46. “The pro-life side conflates them as both violating God’s plan for reproduction, while the pro-choice side conflates them as both violating women’s self-determination with regards their lives and bodies.”

    Neither side is “conflating” anything. We both believe what we say.

    Or, at least, I know that I don’t go around making the argument that to outlaw abortion – when the law will not compel a parent to donate blood and bone marrow – is to make women second class citizens, just because I think it’s a useful argument. I make that argument because I believe this with every fibre of my being.

    And while I am skeptical of some pro-lifers claims as to why they are against contraception, I don’t, as a general rule, think that the everyday people making these arguments are saying things that they don’t really believe.

  47. Well, probably it won’t happen, realistically. None of the Democratic presidential candidates are the “bring our troops home now” types, and none of them support abortion on demand without any restrictions, do they? Don’t they all at least support parental notification or some such?

    So based on those issues there’s no incentive for you to vote Democratic in the next presidential election. The questions of national healthcare might be an incentive–I believe that Democrats are the only ones who might address that, and Edwards acknowledges poverty as a major problem.

    But the Republicans have got nothing that would induce me to vote for them under any circumstances. And part of that is that I just won’t vote for any candidate who would force me to endure pregnancy and childbirth against my will. If I have to vote for a candidate who’s in favor of a few restrictions because the alternative is George W. Bush, then I will, but when I was living in PA I didn’t vote for Bob Casey for senate, because I objected to the Dems throwing my rights under the bus. And as a New Yorker, I hate Giuliani and would never vote for him.

    I don’t think electoral politics is the place where we could find common ground. The issue of abortion itself is simply too important to me. It is the surrounding areas, the pressure for health care, etc., that would could work together on.

  48. MZ-

    I get what you’re saying, to a point. I have (and continue to, due to the nature of many religious peace/social justice groups) worked with people with whom I strongly disagree on the issue of abortion for causes such as you listed – peace, immigrant rights, health care, church reform, etc. And I do think that’s helpful.

    BUT, neither they nor I are giving any ground on the issue of legalized abortion. So . . . I’m stuck there.

  49. My point being: pro-lifers are constantly accused of not budging, when I think that we actually do, especailly in the framing of our bills.

    Nathan, as a lawyer, I have to tell you that you are gravely misunderstanding the reason for the ‘framing’ of those bills. They are not meant in the spirit of compromise; they are meant to be incremental steps in the ultimate goal of banning all abortions.

    Which is why no compromise in the sense you mean is really possible. “Let’s just go this far and no farther, okay? I promise we’ll stop there” wasn’t persuasive to most of us as teenagers; it’s unlikely to be a winning political strategy now.

  50. At the same time, they are not going to convince us that abortion is a “right”, and nor will we convince them that abortion is intrinsically evil.

    Remove quotations, please. All else aside, it doesn’t make it look like your good intentions are earnest when you draw attention to the operative word in only the negative sense… if that makes sense.

  51. Ideologically and theoretically there is no room for compromise. Pro-choicers cannot compromise on what is a right and what is not a right. Women have a right to control their bodies. We deserve bodily autonomy. It’s a BASIC freedom, like the freedom not to be enslaved. End of story.

    Practically, there is room for compromise. We can agree that lowering the abortion rate, by providing women with a free choice through making pregnancy and motherhood economically feasible, is a good idea. And we can work together on that one goal.

  52. but when I was living in PA I didn’t vote for Bob Casey for senate

    Not to make this about voting, but as a resident of PA, when your only other choice is Rick FUCKING Santorum (aka Satan’s Lapdog), Bob Casey starts to look like Santa Claus.

    Even though I hate the bastard. But it was worth it to see Santorum concede.

    Ahem. Anyway.

    I think this dialogue is so fantastic. I’m so glad that you did this little “outreach,” Jill, as it’s really important that these conversations happen. If only to illustrate to ourselves and to our ideological opponents that neither camp is composed entirely of all rabid extremists.

  53. Yeah, I remember. I just couldn’t bring myself to do it, in large part because I feared, and still fear the consequences of Casey’s success. If the Democratic party gets the idea that the way to power is to abandon abortion rights, women are screwed, and I’m not gonna be a part of it. I don’t think that people who did vote for Casey are evil and bad–by getting rid of Santorum they probably did us all a favor (though if a farmhouse were to land on him that would be even better). I just wouldn’t.

  54. Isn’t it true that in places like Holland and Sweden, where abortion rights are respected and there is no powerful anti-choice movement, there are fewer abortions? I think that’s because countries that respect women’s rights to make our own decisions about our own bodies also provide access to contraception, health care, and sex education.

  55. I don’t think that people who did vote for Casey are evil and bad–by getting rid of Santorum they probably did us all a favor … I just wouldn’t

    Fair enough.

    I think dropping a house on Santorum should be part of the next Democratic agenda, actually. (Casey needs a bucket of water thrown on him–what do you bet he melts?)

  56. There’s a basic problem with the whole abortion debate: The stakes are so high that it is difficult to be polite, muchless find common ground. On the pro-life side, there is the belief that abortion is murder. Premeditated murder. Against one’s own children. How do you compromise with people advocating infanticide? On the pro-choice side, there is the belief that advocating the illegalization of abortion is essentially legalizing rape and slavery: that is, making it impossible for women to control their own bodies and forcing them to undergo painful, life threatening* acts for the benefit of entities that are of very questionable humanity in the first place. How do you compromise with people whose position is that you should be enslaved?

    Yes, I’m caricaturing both positions slightly, but I think I’m not far off on the basics. I’m not sure where that gets us, but maybe someone else can go further with this idea.

    *If anyone states that pregnancy is not dangerous I will go into the medical facts of pregnancy in detail you hoped you would never here. Including exactly what happens during an ectopic pregnancy. Which you don’t really want to know. Trust me.

  57. I used to be of the “pro-contraception, anti-abortion mindset” but the more I looked around the more I realized that even though I was anti-abortion, I agreed much more with policies and goals of the pro-choice movement. I wanted to see comprehensive sex education, better health care, better access to contraception, more options for pregnant women and actual help for women who needed it to carry a wanted pregnancy to term. The only places talking about these goals were pro-choice organizations- my side was waving bloody fetus pictures around, harassing women and talking about how contraception was evil. In good faith, I could no longer belong to or self-identify with a movement that treated women like murderers and did nothing to actually help lower the abortion rate. So, I’m pro-choice- I would greatly like to see the abortion rate decreased both from a “women should not have to go invasive surgery more than absolutely necessary” viewpoint and the “a fetus is a developing human life” viewpoint. The difference between myself now and myself before I was pro-choice is that I realize now that the decision whether or not to be or remain pregnant belongs to nobody but the woman whose body the pregnancy takes place in. My comfort level does not ever even enter the equation because it can’t. So, yeah… I could find common ground with people who are pro-contraception and anti-abortion, who self-identify as pro-life. I think we can talk about giving women more options, I think we can talk about increasing health care and daycare and working towards a society where women and children are valued. I don’t, however, think we can ever compromise- it’s not less rights for me, my daughter, or someone else’s daughter or mother or sister or self in exchange for you promoting contraception. It’s not second trimester abortion bans in exchange for less restrictions in the first trimester. It’s plain and simple common ground- preventing pregnancies before they happen and helping women who want to carry to term but don’t see how they possibly could.

  58. There’s an important distinction to be made here that Julie has touched on. While the nature of the so-called pro-life position is to try to impose one’s beliefs on all families by using the power of the state, the nature of the pro-choice position is that we recognize the right of every woman and every family to follow her own beliefs. We can’t compromise on who’s in charge of abortion choices without compromising our fundamental beliefs.

    As a pro-choice activist who is also against abortion in theory, because I think that aborting a healthy fetus is killing a potential human, I’m coming from a position of realism. Most self-styled ‘pro-life’ activists, my counterparts in this political debate, are people who share my belief but have an unrealistic approach in which they think they’re entitled to an opinion about the choices of others.

    Despite my belief that abortion is a wrong when it’s the taking of a life, I don’t feel that I have the right to impose that belief on others. Further, I understand that in fact the best route to minimizing that type of killing is the promotion of contraception.

    Because I’m against abortion, I think every six-pack should come with a condom in the packaging. But I’m unusual.

  59. How can pro-choicers and pro-lifers find common ground? Simple–stop with the nonsense that abortion is about “killing children” and admit that it’s about women’s sexuality and how it is perceived. Open, honest discussion about sex, not cloaked in myth or propaganda, is what is BADLY needed.

  60. I personally don’t see a liberterian abortion position being intrinsically feminist, not that it is required to be. I’m certainly not going to claim that a feminist must support abortion. There are feminists who can reconcile an anti-abortion view to their beliefs, and there are liberterians who can do likewise.

    I can honestly understand an ethic that places a premium upon the autonomy of women. It is not my ethic, but that isn’t exactly revelatory. The need for abortion would seem consistent with such an ethic. The arguments aren’t even all that different than those arguing contraception is an ethical good. I suppose this is the long way of saying I have greater respect for the feminist argument than the liberterian one. That and $5 will buy you a latte at Starbucks.

  61. Reading this thread is interesting. I don’t have much to add, other than to note that on my campus today there were two tables set up across the plaza from each other. One pro-forced pregnancy with pictures of bloody embryos and pamphlets full of half-truths (no, abortion does not cause depression, cancer, or infertility), shouting at people, and another pro-choice with condoms and information cards about Plan B, and fact-based pamphlets about pregnancy, breastfeeding, breast cancer, pap smears, etc.

    Which I think is pretty much a self-explanatory anecdote.

  62. Julie – Amen.

    Nathan – Being morally / spiritually opposed to the most proven methods of reducing unwanted pregnancy (like BC and age-appropriate sex ed) means, in the end, that you and people like you are doing nothing but contributing to the problem you are trying to fix.

    You’re talking give-and-take as if this is some Cold-War era strategic arms reduction; this is about getting to the source of the problem in order to solve it. There is no compromise if you fail to see this issue differently than the way you see it now. Read the article on Dutch Model in the link I have above, especially the quote by Jos Poelman at the end.

  63. Just want to add:

    Could this be a point of common ground among Catholics and pro-choice feminists, since we are not really going to change each others minds on this matter? If we would focus less on the coercive side, would you be willing to work to minimize the abortion rate?

    Of course.

  64. Having just wasted far too much time at MM’s place, I think I can safely say that there is no common ground possible, because the opposite side sees “us” as sub-humans, murderers, etc. If anyone wants to wander over and check out some really silly arguments, go take a look…The ignorance of biology is quite astonishing.

  65. Dianne,

    I’m sorry you had such a hard time making your points. As I said at the outset, we’re not going to convince each other on the moral question of abortion – and yet that’s where the debate always heads. We need to put that aside, and focus on what we can do together to reduce abortion. Many on the right are also a little confused about the differences between law and morality on the abortion issue. Try this one: http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/16/abortion-legality-and-morality/

  66. Diane,

    Again, histrionics is unnecessary. No one called you “sub-human” or “murderer.”

    Given my own science background, I cannot see anything that could be taken as faulty biology in what I offered. It is much easier to assert that so-and-so is ignorant and wrong. It is much more difficult to show why so-and-so is wrong. And I am afraid that having offered you a definition of person and how it applies to conception in seven points at your request, I find you dodging the question as to what precisely is faulty and wrong in my comment. You’ll find that twinning, cloning, etc. poses little problem to the consistency of the Catholic understanding of personhood, and yet you’ll also find that contemporary evolutionary psychology largely disavows your assertion that brain activity and personhood is co-extensive. Not only is your position on personhood incoherent scientifically, it is just outright counter-intuitive. I have outlined this incoherence several times.

    I welcome you back to discuss this issue responsibly any time you like.

  67. I want to bring up a few points and ask a couple of questions to the Christian pro-lifers out there, if you’ll be so kind as to be patient here, because it may get long-winded.

    (I want to point out that I am asking this only of Christian pro-lifers, not people who are pro-life for other reasons and whose faith or religion has absolutely no bearing on their stance on this issue. That means that replies that say things like, “Not all pro-lifers are Christian! Stop making generalisations!” because I’m not doing any such thing. Thanks in advance.)

    Many of the people on the anti-choice/”pro-life” side are on that side for religious reasons. Many of these people who are on this side for religious reasons are Christians, specifically. Not only that, many are evangelical Christians, who (please correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am) want to “save” as many people as possible. Thus missionary work and “spreading the good news.”

    In their minds, abortion should be illegal because it is murder, because God said thou shalt not kill, because it (and contraception) goes against God’s plans for reproduction. Right?

    So, my question is this: What would stopping me from using any form of birth control, stopping me from being able to have an abortion, or even somehow effectively stopping me from having sex with my fiance until we are married even accomplish? Do you believe that once my rights as a human being are taken away, that that will somehow change my basic, intrinsic beliefs and faith systems that I have in place for myself? Do you expect a woman who is not a follower of Christianity or any other religion that is anti-choice/contraception/pre-marital sex to go, “Wow. All of these things are no longer allowed. I can’t have sex because I’m not married, and if I could, I couldn’t take a pill or have my partner use a condom to prevent pregnancy, and if I got pregnant, I have no choice but to become a mother… You’re right! You convinced me! Because you did this to me, I suddenly changed my mind. I am now a genuine believer. I’m saved!”

    I don’t think so.

    I ask this because I can see no other purpose in restricting a woman’s right to choose based on YOUR own religious beliefs. YOUR own. Not mine, not his or hers or theirs, but YOURS. What does that matter to any of the rest of us? If you want to try to save my soul, or those of other people like me, I’m pretty sure that we all realize that forcing restrictions on freedoms is not the way to do so. Is it genuine belief you’re after, or do you simply not care? Really, I don’t get it.

  68. No one called you “sub-human” or “murderer.”

    Does this quote, taken directly from your post, sound familiar: “There is nothing more despicably anti-human than the promotion of death. Pro-abortion? That’s a euphemism for anti-human.”

    Why are you trying to deny what you yourself wrote? If you have decided that you went over the top then say so and maybe even apologize. This debate gets heated. But you most certainly did call all pro-choice people “dispicable” and “sub-human.”

    Link to article from which the quote is taken: http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/15/i-am-unequivocally-anti-abortion/

  69. Given my own science background, I cannot see anything that could be taken as faulty biology in what I offered.

    Again, I will refer to your own words. You claim, among other things, that cloning (of any animal) involves the generation of an animal from a fertilized egg, that “chimerism” is a dispicable term rather than a commonly used description of a relatively common event, seem to be unaware of the definition of “death” in humans, and, quite frankly, don’t really seem to know what science is. I would fail any student who made this statement, “The definition of person offered in #1 is philosophically and scientifically sound, and exhibits no traces of prejudice” regardless of how closely I agreed with the definition he or she gave. A “scientifically sound” definition of anything must rest on evidence and is, therefore, inevitably on permanent shaky ground.

    BTW: I notice that you ignored a simple question I asked you, so I’ll ask again: Are virsuses living beings or not? And what part of conception, exactly, do you consider to be the moment at which the “person” appears? Come on, this is first year undergraduate stuff. If you’re going to make a claim to having any background in science, be prepared to back it up on at least the very most basic level.

  70. We need to put that aside

    Again, I don’t see how it is possible to “put aside” statements such as ” There is nothing more despicably anti-human than the promotion of death. Pro-abortion? That’s a euphemism for anti-human.” or work with people who state, as one commentor to Pol’s post did, “This is indeed one of those fights where you offer no quarter. You take your victories, large or small, as you can get them and carry on the battle.” Nor, quite frankly, can I see any reason to do so. Sorry, you seem like a nice person who generally is doing good work, but I simply can’t see any way to be with you on this.

  71. Nathan. Dude. It’s really getting old, spelling this out for you. Partial Birth Abortion is not a real procedure, that terminology is wrong. BUT, if you’re talking about a D & E… it IS NOT AN ELECTIVE PROCEDURE! You have to be really fucked up to be allowed one, i.e. you will die from giving birth, or the baby is already dead or would be soon after. Get a clue. After all these years, you’re still such an ignorant punkass.

  72. Gee whiz, where’d the antis go?

    The moderation queue waiting for Jill, zuzu, or piny to clear them?
    Got bored and gave it up?
    Got too interested and gave it up because it was too big a time suck (the reason I’m not going to the Vox site anymore)?
    Felt intimidated or overwhelmed?
    Ran out of arguments?
    Saw the light and became pros?
    Just some suggestions…

  73. Things that pro-lifers could do to help reduce abortions:

    * working to raise the wages and quality of life of the poor
    * creating and running facilities to help pregnant women, especially single mothers, plan for their child and any existing children – basic things like budgeting, saving for future problems, putting away money for education, etc.
    * ending scare tactics in sex education in favor of an honest look at risks and benefits, including those of contraceptives
    * widespread and easily-available sex education
    * In the case of religious groups, educating their followers about the realities of rape and domestic violence, and working hard to ensure that misconceptions about it are not present in their followers
    * In general, promote more awareness about rape and DV
    * Not using religious shame to force women’s decisions about abortions
    * on a personal level, creating support financially, emotionally, and physically for pregnant women in their community, especially those without a strong support net

    These are all things that I think feminists are on board with/work towards, and things that don’t directly touch on the actual act of abortion itself, that would go a long way towards reducing abortion rates.

  74. “and yet you’ll also find that contemporary evolutionary psychology largely disavows your assertion that brain activity and personhood is co-extensive.”

    What on earth does evo psych have to do with the philosophical concept of personhood? It sounds like you’re making shit up.

  75. I see a problem with taking things that pro-choice people want for pro-choice reasons – such as providing health care, or sex ed – and labeling them as things done to “reduce abortions.” It takes the value off of something that should be valued for what it is, and makes it valuable only for a very secondary side effect. And it treats these things as something done only for the babies, not something done for women for their own sake. As if a woman doesn’t deserve health care for herself, but only if it makes her decide to have a baby.

    Even if it increased abortions, we’d want to see good sex ed and ample, affordable health care. They’re just good things.

  76. Pick a state, any state. Or country. Or continent. Google for the history of Roman Catholic Social Justice Programs. See how much the pro-life Catholic Church has always done for the oppressed, poor, imprisoned, abandoned. orphaned, sick, homeless, bereaved, migrated, alienated, addicted, disabled, the elderly, the unborn … for instance, here is a brief history of the Omaha Catholic Charities. (and no, neither the Church nor its history is perfect. Are any of us?)

    Catholic Charities of the Archdiocese of Omaha began as a formal social service agency in 1926 to offer relief and rehabilitation to Catholic families. The agency directed much of its early assistance toward families suffering through the Great Depression and drought, which had devastated the area.

    In the 1940s, Catholic Charities merged with Catholic Child Welfare Services and Family Counseling Services. During the 1950s and 1960s, the organization continued to offer family and children’s services while its staff grew larger and more professional.

    In the 1960s, the agency evolved from a traditional social work organization to a more aggressive outreach program with more diverse staffing. Personnel consisted of social workers, sociologists, psychologists, nurses, priests, religious, and laity. Late in 1969, the organization changed its name to United Catholic Social Services (UCSS) to reflect this increasing professionalism.

    During the 1970s, traditional services such as adoption, pregnancy counseling, family and individual counseling continued to be offered. Counseling sites were established at Columbus and Norfolk. Educational and community services were enlarged. St. Martin de Porres Center was completed in 1979, and today serves as the hub of activity for many programs serving low-income individuals.

    Extensive efforts to help individuals and families suffering from chemical dependency also began in the 1970s. Outpatient Chemical Dependency Services started operating in 1972. St. Gabriel’s Regional Center for Substance Abuse opened in 1979. In 1998 St. Gabriel’s moved to the beautiful Omaha Campus for Hope. The Omaha Campus for Hope is today the state’s largest inpatient chemical dependency treatment facility and provides civil protective custody, detoxification, and short-term, extended care and outpatient treatment programs.

    Other social programs were launched during this period. The Shelter, which is a 26-bed residential program for abused women and children, started operating in 1978. Christus House opened in 1981 and offered a transitional living facility and a halfway house for adolescents.

    The 1990s brought many new changes for the organization. In 1991, the Agency and Catholic Hispanic Ministries jointly opened the Juan Diego Center in south Omaha to provide assistance to the Latino community. In early 1995, the agency changed its name from UCSS back to its original title of “Catholic Charities.” Catholic Charities opened Family Passages in 1996, a HUD funded transitional living program for homeless families who are victims of domestic violence.

    The late 1990s and early 2000s saw the opening of three collaborations, the Latina Resource Center, Interfaith Immigration Services of Nebraska and Journeys. The Latina Resource Center provides Hispanic women with services such as English as a second language, health and family-life education, counseling and aid with job preparation. Interfaith Immigration Services provides immigration legal services in English, Spanish and Sudanese languages to people of lower incomes. Finally, Journeys provides substance abuse evaluations, outpatient and residential treatment and aftercare to youth.

    Today, Catholic Charities is headquartered at the Sheehan Center in the Benson area of Omaha. The agency provides its services to individuals and families in need of assistance regardless of race, creed, or socioeconomic strata. Over 65,000 individuals were reached in 2003 through the programs of Catholic Charities.

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