Beautiful Girls

125 thoughts on Beautiful Girls

1. If I don’t wake up, it’s worth it.

   How sad. She’d rather die than be flat-chested? I’m sorry, I’d rather be flat-chested than have someone hack up my breasts and shove implants into them to meet an unrealistic body ideal.

2. This is why the “I did it for ME” narrative surrounding plastic surgery is so troubling.

   Yes. Very much yes.

3. Who the hell is Heidi Montag? Who is “Spencer”? What is The Hills?

   Adds an even more surreal level to the article. I should care about her and how much better she looks because…why, again?

   If she did it for “her,” that’s why she needs to let everyone know she did it, right? So she can “feel better about herself.” Even if lots of us out here have no idea who the heck she is.

   Ugh, ugh, ugh.

4. tinfoil hattie, big WORD. Why are these people from The Hills supposed to even be on my radar?

   To be more on-topic, though, I find it really disturbing how many people want to go through the pain of plastic surgery (not to mention how painful it is on the wallet) because they have small breasts or a big nose. Not everyone likes huge tits and small noses! I happen to LOVE prominent noses. It’s one of the features I love the best about my husband. I also have a thing for people with gap-toothed smiles and I know I am not the only one. So this idea of surgery as a way to appeal to the masses is so ridiculous because not everyone likes the same thing!

5. I third the sentiment. Who is this woman and what is The Hills?

   On a plastic surgery note, a friend was watching Extreme Makeover and didn’t see anything wrong with perfectly attractive, ordinary people deciding they were so hideous that they needed tons of painful surgery done. I argued there is a difference between surgery for say a cleft palate than a woman who is unhappy because she has some natural age lines around her eyes. My friend didn’t see the sexist, patriarchal nature of the show.

   I agree with Jill’s sentiment:

   This is why the “I did it for ME” narrative surrounding plastic surgery is so troubling.

6. UGH. I was just blogging yesterday about liposuction.. I believe plastic surgery and cosmetic surgery is now just a tool of facism. And to think it was originally intended to restore lymbs and faces damaged in horrific accidents….

7. I agree with Jill here, but the “all body modification is the result of patriarchy-induced self-hate” narrative can go too far as well. Personally, I love my small breasts (no need for an uncomfortable bra!), but I despise my body hair and will have everything below the neck lasered off one day. I’m extremely pale with copious amounts of very dark, thick hair on my legs, arms, etc. I’ve never been teased for it (for lots of other physical attributes, but not body hair), and none of my ex-boyfriends have ever seemed bothered by it in the least. Still, I despise it, especially because shaving takes forever, and stubble anywhere is a twitchy pet peeve of mine -even on other people. Also, I’m lazy when it comes to grooming. I cut my hair at home, and seldom do more than wash it with Wash n’ Go shampoo and let it air dry on my walk to work. The thought of never having to de-fur myself again is delightful. It’s also a few years down the line. I don’t have enough money for it right now, and have other priorities with the money I do have.

8. I get into arguments with a friend who wants to have the “ethnic bump” on her nose removed one day and sees my disapproval of that as hypocritical in light of my hair removal ambitions. I’m not sure who is right, to be honest.

   But I’m still going under the laser.

9. I agree with Jill here, but the “all body modification is the result of patriarchy-induced self-hate” narrative can go too far as well.

   The difference, I think, is a certain self-determination and self-possession that is clearly evident in Miss Sarajevo’s comments, and NOT in someone who claims it’s worth it to die for big boobs.

10. The difference, I think, is a certain self-determination and self-possession that is clearly evident in Miss Sarajevo’s comments, and NOT in someone who claims it’s worth it to die for big boobs.

    Uh yeah, if laser hair removal could kill me (well, everything has a some potential to kill you, but you know what I mean) I would certainly not even contemplate it.

11. Heya Jill-

    Well, as a gal with implants I can say people get them for a lot of reasons. I spent a great part of my youth not being teased for having no chest, but literally being mistaken for the wrong sex- by guys, girls, adults…being told when shopping in a store that the boys section was over there. As a straight female, that shit got real old long about 16. Some people are really into being rather androgynous, I’m not. And yes as I got older it began to become more evident that I was in fact female, but when I decided to get them, it was that experience, more than anything, including my job, which was hanging around in the back of my mind. Yes, it is a full surgery with all the dangers (including the occassional case of death) of a full surgery, and yeah, it hurts, but frankly, pain is temporary and I was pretty much 100% certain I would make it out alive. Well, I did, and I am thrilled with the results, and I would do it again in a second.

    I also look around at a lot of other “lesser” proceedures people undergo- from dying their hair to getting braces-which quite frankly is done more often for cosmetic reasons than medical ones- to dieting/working out (which yes, can and has also killed people) and I spmetimes wonder why Breast Augmentation is such a huge deal. Is it because there is a knife involved?

    People get one body in their life, and if they choose to alter it, via surgery and other cosmetic means, or with tattoos and piercings, or whatever else, well, if they have the means and it won’t put them in serious debt….I guess I figure it is their body, their choice, and they should do what makes them happiest in their own skin. Yes, I absolutely think people should study up on and consider all the risks involved with implants, and not get them on a whim, but if they do that? Well, it is their body.

    I had very few things I disliked about my own body before I got mine. Now I have on less.

    Just a few cents from the other side of the fence and all.

12. I personally do think that all modifications, including braces and hair dying, should be questioned. The underlying idea, that there is a right and a wrong way to look, bothers me.

    RenegadeEvolution, you put a good point up there, but I interpreted it this way: There seems to be a single social concept of what a woman or a girl looks like, so narrow and confining that actual women and girls do not fit the mold. If a girl is mistaken for a boy, it is the fault of the agreed-upon social construct and not the girl herself. Rather than women changing themselves to fit an erroneous misconception, the erroneous misconception must be eliminated.

    At least, that’s what I’m trying for.

13. “erroneous misconception”… yeesh. Well, my point still stands. 😉

14. I also look around at a lot of other “lesser” proceedures people undergo- from dying their hair to getting braces-which quite frankly is done more often for cosmetic reasons than medical ones- to dieting/working out (which yes, can and has also killed people) and I spmetimes wonder why Breast Augmentation is such a huge deal. Is it because there is a knife involved?

    Well, dyeing your hair is temporary. Getting braces is temporary.

    Having a surgeon cut you open and insert sacks full of saline is not temporary. Even if you decide later on that you don’t want them anymore and have them taken out, you will have permanently altered the way your breasts look.

    Now, if you want to compare breast implants to things like tattoos and extreme piercings that can only be changed with a huge amount of medical intervention, I think that’s a more valid comparison. I would also point out, though, that large tattoos and extreme piercings are still considered pretty outside-the-mainstream things to do, while breast implants are considered something that puts you back into the mainstream.

    I think that’s a difference worth looking at — why does one kind of body mod mark you as an outlaw when an even more extreme one marks you as (sorry) a conformist?

15. The thing that bothered me the most is that the so-called “love of her life” gives her the “I’m so proud of you” line. What, exactly, is he proud of? It’s not like she got an A on an exam, or saved up for a new car, or finally got that big promotion at work. Gah…that pisses me off on so many levels that he would say that, and she’d take it as a compliment.

    …getting braces-which quite frankly is done more often for cosmetic reasons than medical ones.

    Actually, most of my adult working life has been spent in the orthodontic field, and yes, many patients only see the cosmetic benefit of braces, but a majority of orthodontic cases are necessary for a person’s dental health and drastically reduce the risk of cavities in over-crowded teeth, damage to protruding teeth, and jaw and joint problems with mis-aligned teeth as well as a host of other oral health benefits. I do get your point, Renegade…just wanted to clarify.

16. A big chunk of the patriarchy actually prefers small-breasted women. So “I did it for me” might well be valid.

17. Getting braces is temporary.

    if the braces work right, your teeth will be permanently aligned (and in the long run, shaped) differently than they were before. whether or not this is comparable to cosmetic surgery is, i suppose, the whole debate.

18. Pingback: thenakedredhead » Blog Archive » My Big Fat Needed Boob Job

19. Mnemosyne:

    I’ve compared implants to tattoos and piercings and other body mods before too, and actually, nowadays, piercings (other than in ones ears) and tattoos are pretty mainstream. You walk down the street, into a club or a bar, anywhere, you will see both women and men with tattoos and piercings. Belly button, tongue, nose and eyebrow piercings are pretty common, even on “professional people”, as are tattoos that can be hidden by business attire. Granted, people with numerous tattoos and piercings are still viewed as outlaws to some degree, but the average Jane and Joe can both be found sporting metal and ink these days.

20. Willa:

    “There seems to be a single social concept of what a woman or a girl looks like, so narrow and confining that actual women and girls do not fit the mold. If a girl is mistaken for a boy, it is the fault of the agreed-upon social construct and not the girl herself. Rather than women changing themselves to fit an erroneous misconception, the erroneous misconception must be eliminated.

    At least, that’s what I’m trying for.”

    Which is a noble goal, really, and one day it may very well be a reality, but in the here and now, it’s an annoying pain in the ass 🙂

21. Also, whether or not your an outlaw or conforming depends on a large degree on which group you’re trying to be a part of.

    I could give a rat’s ass what ‘mainstream’ culture thinks about the way I dress (or look, or think, or whatever we’re talking about this week). Should I change things that make me comfortable, just so I don’t accidentally ‘conform?’

22. the average Jane and Joe can both be found sporting metal and ink these days.

    Of course, how much they reveal of the metal and ink is heavily dependent on context. They may have to cover up for work because they work in a conservative office, but show off at night at a club. What seems acceptable in one environment isn’t in another.

23. zuzu: Very much so.

24. I’ve compared implants to tattoos and piercings and other body mods before too, and actually, nowadays, piercings (other than in ones ears) and tattoos are pretty mainstream. You walk down the street, into a club or a bar, anywhere, you will see both women and men with tattoos and piercings.

    If you live in a large urban area where you hang around with a lot of young adults, yes, you will see a lot of piercings and tattoos. But I guarantee you that those people either don’t have corporate/professional jobs or they cover them up during office hours. Because, like it or not, to the larger society, tattoos and non-ear piercings are still considered oddball things to do. They may be fine in your social circle, but try showing up at your cousin’s wedding in a sleeveless dress with tattoos showing on both arms or with several eyebrow piercings.

    And yet that same group of people will consider breast implants so normal that they can be discussed during the reception.

25. Getting braces is temporary.

    Having a surgeon cut you open and insert sacks full of saline is not temporary. Even if you decide later on that you don’t want them anymore and have them taken out, you will have permanently altered the way your breasts look.

    well, braces permanently alter your teeth, as well.

    i thought this article was really sad, but i don’t think getting cosmetic surgery is necessarily problematic or morally wrong.

    for some people, altering the nose or breasts or chin can really make a difference on their mental outlook. if it’s something that just bothers them so much, i say go for it.

    this is one of those things i personally wouldn’t do, but i’m not opposed to others doing.

26. oh, and the cast of the hills should be placed in internment camps.

27. I could give a rat’s ass what ‘mainstream’ culture thinks about the way I dress (or look, or think, or whatever we’re talking about this week).

    I’m trying to figure out why one set of body modifications (nose jobs, breast implants) are considered mainstream but another set is not. So, yes, questions of what is and is not considered mainstream is kind of my point.

28. literally being mistaken for the wrong sex- by guys, girls, adults…being told when shopping in a store that the boys section was over there. … Some people are really into being rather androgynous, I’m not. And yes as I got older it began to become more evident that I was in fact female, but when I decided to get them, it was that experience, more than anything, including my job, which was hanging around in the back of my mind.

    Well, your implants didn’t erase what happened to you as a child or make that experience any less painful. And flat chest does not equal “androgynous,” either. I know now and have known quite a few small-breasted women who were anything but androgynous.

    I’m not seeing “the other side” here. Rather, I see you making Jill’s point for her. Your status as a sex worker provides an interesting conundrum as well, since the various blogs to which you contribute often defend the concept of ‘giving the customer what they want.’ I’m thinking in particular about the defenses of what could be considered “rape porn” on your pro-porn activist site. I myself am “pro-porn,” but I’m not an apologist for it. You know as well as I that violent pornography is growing rapidly from its niche status and proliferating more widely than ever before. Why? Is it simply because someone suddenly realized it turned people on, or is there something shifting in our society that makes it more appealing now? Those are important questions to ask, but porn apologists rarely seem to be interested in asking them.

    Same for your implants. You don’t seem particularly interested in exactly why you got them beyond the superficial explanation that people confused your gender when you were a kid. You write that people should do things “that make them happiest in their own skin.” My question to you is: were breast implants the only thing that could’ve made you “happier in your own skin”? ‘Cause I’m not buying that.

29. The problem IMO is that the more women do these things, the more it ups the pressure on other women to do the same. You’ll hear people saying of someone that she “should” get breast implants or a nosejob or whatever. It’s a collective-action problem, ie when one person does what’s rationally best for herself, she’s contributing to a situation in which things are worse for everyone else.

    And yeah, I know it’s not as if beauty standards were diverse and reflective of the tastes of real humans before plastic surgery was invented. But it’s my perception that there was a time when they were a bit more diverse than they are now, like, 10-15 years ago. I think at that stage feminism’s victories in decreasing the amount of labour women are expected to put into beauty had reached a kind of high tide, and since then there has been a backlash.

    I know my youngest sister, who’s 20, spent her teenage years with much more demanding beauty standards than I did– of course, I was a geek and she is highly extravert, so it’s different crowds. But she has all these compulsory activities like applying fake tan and straightening her hair that I’ve never considered essential, but that women the best part of a decade younger than me seem to. To me that’s a sign of a collective-action problem that’s gone out of control.

    Also my other problem with this stuff is that some men explicitly approve of the “suffering to be beautiful” trope, and think of women getting breast implants or whatever as a woman who is fulfilling her purpose in life– ie to be pleasing to disgusting creeps like themselves. Of course, I don’t think anyone should take the creeps who believe that conscously or the more numerous creeps who believe it unconsciously into consideration when they make personal decisions. But the attitudes of creeps does unfortunately affect the lives of a lot of women, and breast implants act as a form of encouragement to that kind of creep even when that’s not their intention. Tattoos and piercings have the opposite effect.

    None of this is to judge women who get plastic surgery. LIke I said, they are doing what’s best for themselves, and the effect of their not doing it would be pretty massive on their own lives and negligible on the larger culture. (though I wonder how it affects one’s close friends; do they feel under a lot more pressure to get surgery?) There are a few expensive beauty treatments I want to get myself when I have the cash.

    Anyway. I don’t know what the solution is. The only bright side I can see is that men are increasingly being held to repressive and demanding beauty standards themselves. Perhaps they;ll get fed up of it and that whole side of culture will somehow end up cannibalising itself.

30. Man, that was a long comment. And I still left something out. I wanted to say, if beauty stadards aren’t reflective of the tastes of real humans, what do they reflect? And of course they reflect a kind of collective taste that gets agreed upon by people who view women as status objects. Men are shamed by their friends into desiring only women who conform to those standards. The thing about beauty standards becoming diversified is that it was quite dangerous to the beauty culture; it was only one step away from people actually just liking what they like, without any shame attached. If that had happened the whole system would have collapsed.

31. Unless you got your tattoo at a really disreputable place, tattoos are problem unlikely to harden, rupture and leak, interfere with a mammography or get infected.

32. Same for your implants. You don’t seem particularly interested in exactly why you got them beyond the superficial explanation that people confused your gender when you were a kid. You write that people should do things “that make them happiest in their own skin.” My question to you is: were breast implants the only thing that could’ve made you “happier in your own skin”? ‘Cause I’m not buying that.

    Only Ren is qualified to figure out what the possibilities were for her to be happy and comfortable in her own skin. You can question the general practice all you want, and you can certainly ask her if she thought about this or that alternative. But where I draw the line, personally, is making the assumption that someone hasn’t thought about it, or must not have considered this or that, or is in some other fashion prey to their own ignorance or lack of Correct Thinking. Again, only she is qualified to figure this question out, and if she has arrived at a conclusion that others don’t understand, then what does that prove? I think the first thing it proves is that they don’t understand her. That’s what occurs to me when you don’t “buy” what she’s saying.

    Maybe you find her explanation superficial. That doesn’t mean that it’s the entirety of her story. Until you know a lot more — and some of this stuff, about the feelings that come with inhabiting a body, can be very hard to put into words — I wouldn’t be too quick to decide what you’re buying or not buying.

33. I needed Wikipedia to explain these cultural icons to me. The irony is that The Hills as a title suggests some sort of horror film to me, i.e., the Hills Have Eyes.

    Isn’t there a study that suggests that women who get breast implants are also three times as likely to commit suicide? I think that tends to suggest that plastic surgery is much more treating a symptom than a disease.

34. I can understand why somebody would walk into a hospital and lay down for a procedure that they might not get up from. It’s about your concept of your body not matching your idea of what it should be.
    It’s about correcting something you see as really wrong, and that bugs the shit out of you to the point where you are willing to literally bet your life to change what you think has to be changed.
    I did it 14 years ago, walked into a hospital in Portland, Oregon and got sex reassingment surgery. I knew that all sorts of horrible shit could happen to me. And some complications did happen.
    But I knew I sure couldn’t go on the way I was after spending most of my life unhappy with what I was. I still have to deal with people who hate me because of what I was and what I am now.
    But I’m happy now with who I have become. It was worth it to me.
    I didn’t get implants, or a nose job, and only a dozen or so people have even seen me and my new parts naked since I did it, but I knew that I it was worth the risk to make my body match something closer to what my mind was convinced it should be.
    Just sayin’, it’s not always about what society thinks, it’s about what you feel inside.
    I think implants are pretty strange, and every time I picked up a sheet of plywood or fell off my bike I’d worry about busting the damn things, but mileage and attitudes vary.
    It’s her body. It may be fucked up to some people, but never understimate how strongly your mind and body image can drive you to things.

35. Sickle: I’m not here to talk porn with people. That’s not really the topic. Yep, some women in sex work get implants because it can and often does up the pay check. Sometimes it has the opposite effect. However, if I had a desk job, I still would have gotten implants.

    I also have several piercings and 13 tattoos.

    As for the though I put into it…well, I first decided I wanted them when I was about 22. I actually got them several years later. After a whole lot of thought, research, and consideration. Examining, if you will. I looked at all the pros and cons, and decided I still wanted them, so yep, I got them. And no, it did not erase the annoyance of being mistaken for the wrong gender in my youth, but you know what, I look in the mirror now and I am damn thrilled with the overall package these days, so yeah, I think it was worth it, and to me, that’s what matters the most.

36. “They may be fine in your social circle, but try showing up at your cousin’s wedding in a sleeveless dress with tattoos showing on both arms or with several eyebrow piercings.”

    I’ve done that…well, not the eyebrow piercings, but dresses where several tattoos were visable. Which did raise a few eyebrows, I will admit, and there was far more conversation about those than my implants. Hell, the implants were never even mentioned.

37. Not to dumb down the conversation or anything, but I watch The Hills (guilty pleasure, I’m sorry!) and I honestly think Heidi looked better before her surgery. She actually used to have character in her face and now she looks like a total Maxim Magazine fembot. It’s really sad that a very pretty girl can have such low self esteem and cave to societal pressures like that.

    However, we probably all have one thing about ourselves that we hate that we shouldn’t, but worry about it anyway because it goes against society’s “ideal woman”. It shouldn’t be like that but it is, and for the sake of just general acceptance, most women conform to those societal demands. I mean, wouldn’t you rather be “Jane” instead of “Jane, who doesn’t shave her legs!”? Sad but true (for most of us, not all).

    Also, if you watched the show, you would totally understand why Spencer would say he was so proud.

38. It’s really sad that a very pretty girl can have such low self esteem and cave to societal pressures like that.

    Oh, yeah. Because it’s reasonable for ugly girls to be weak and self-hating, so it’s not so sad when it happens them, but pretty women should be mentally strong and protected from everything bad in society, they shouldn’t be affected by the same shit ugly women are. I mean, they’re pretty. They deserve better.

39. LOL! Obviously none of you have female tweens or teenagers AND MTV. I have seen every episode of this show ad naseum because my 15 year old likes to watch it. I do find that shows like this allow me to discuss various issues with her such as plastic surgery, self-esteem, drug and alcohol use/abuse, relationships, sex, friendships and a myriad of other topics with my daughter which I think is far more effective than just telling her she can “talk to me about anything”.

40. My question to you is: were breast implants the only thing that could’ve made you “happier in your own skin”? ‘Cause I’m not buying that.

    so, what else did you have in mind?

41. “My question to you is: were breast implants the only thing that could’ve made you “happier in your own skin”? ‘Cause I’m not buying that.”

    Well, being taller would be nice, but not much I can do about that. Truth is, like my answer or not, aside from my breasts, I was pretty happy with my body, even my crooked teeth & nose, which I think add character. You can buy what you want, I bought implants, and I am very pleased with my purchase.

42. …so yeah, I think it was worth it, and to me, that’s what matters the most.

    OK, great. To some other people what matters most is whether or not it was worth it to women as a class. The answer to that question is demonstrably no, so, while you can be thrilled with your silicone bags, other, more woman-focused (as opposed to me-focused) people can be dismayed by your patriarchal concession (I believe someone else called it “conforming”).

    I hardly believe anyone here will convince you that you ought not be celebrating your capitulation to the patriarchy’s definition of what a woman ought to look like on a femininst website. And you’re not going to convince anyone who doesn’t believe it already that making the choice to get fake boobs is as feminist an action (pro-woman) as deciding not to. So, I’m not sure what it is you’re hoping to accomplish.

43. To some other people what matters most is whether or not it was worth it to women as a class.

    so, women should not get implants, because it makes non-implanted women “look bad”?

44. People, let’s not play the Substitution of Judgment Game here and dogpile on Ren. We all make concessions to the patriarchy in one way or another. I think Mnemosyne had a good question a ways back, which is: why is one form of body modification (or, for that matter, mode of dress) okay, but another not? Where are we drawing the lines?

45. We all make concessions to the patriarchy in one way or another.

    It’s like someone else was saying, though. Some people make concessions and at least have the dignity not to apologize for them, which is admirable insofar as many concessions are truly inevitable.

    It’s the celebration/justification/aplogia of the concession that I (and others) think is problematic, and I don’t think it’s a “substitution of judgment game” to point that out.

46. Well, saying, “You didn’t really get them for the reasons you say” is substituting judgment. You can certainly go after the apologia / suggest that there might be other factors without attacking Ren as someone who’s making it harder for other women.

    I just don’t want to see this thread devolving into personal attacks.

47. What it comes down to is the old “personal is political” deal.

    I’m not attacking Ren or suggesting that she isn’t really and truly personally satisfied with her choice. I’m merely pointing out that our actions, regardless of our motives, have political implications. No need to pretend as if the political ramifications of a person’s personal choices don’t exist. Moreover, there isn’t any need to pretend as if saying, in so many words, that the personal is, in fact, political, amounts to an ad hominem attack against a person.

48. what is it about Ren’s breasts that reflects poorly on Class Woman? their shape? their size? their artificial-ness?

49. Fake breasts, along with all of the aesthetic modifications, both minor and drastic, that women are encouraged to make in our misogynist culture, reinforce the beauty myth, the emphasis of form over function (physiological and intellectual), so far as the value society places on the bodies of women.

50. And, also, the disingenuous insistence that I’ve even insinuated that Ren’s breasts “make non-implanted women look bad” or that this is about Ren “reflecting poorly” on anyone is tired. It’s about her reinforcing misogynist cultural norms that hurt women. In other words, it’s not about Ren; it’s about the way that her personal choices can and will be used by misogynists to hurt other women.

51. If men didn’t reinforce the idea at every single turn that the only beauty is the one they dictate (and today it is thin with full breasts and long hair and no visible disabilities), would any of us have body image related self esteem issues?

    How do we get men to understand that we are not willing to conform to their narrow view and in turn, they can learn to love us as we will love ourselves… just as we are. Every shape, size, colour?

    For as much as I want every woman to be able to look in the mirror and say “this is me and I rock”, I understand how hard it is to maintain that attitude when you leave your room and are confronted on TV, in magazines, in music videos, billboards, clothing stores ad everywhere else that the only acceptable standard of beauty is the one someone else has chosen for you.

    But somehow, there has to be a way to hold men accountable for their role in this and make them change while encouraging women to find confidence without the social approval of their appearance.

    And I’m so sad at the idea that any woman would think that dying is an ok risk to fulfilling someone else’s ideal of her beauty.

52. Fake breasts, along with all of the aesthetic modifications, both minor and drastic, that women are encouraged to make in our misogynist culture, reinforce the beauty myth, the emphasis of form over function (physiological and intellectual), so far as the value society places on the bodies of women.

    so, it’s the fakeness that’s the problem.

    that makes sense in context. thanks for explaining.

53. And, also, the disingenuous insistence that I’ve even insinuated that Ren’s breasts “make non-implanted women look bad” or that this is about Ren “reflecting poorly” on anyone is tired. It’s about her reinforcing misogynist cultural norms that hurt women. In other words, it’s not about Ren; it’s about the way that her personal choices can and will be used by misogynists to hurt other women

    hurt women how? physically? mentally? hurt all women or just some?

    and is it Ren’s fault that her choices are used by misogynists? isn’t that the misogynists’ fault?

    are you saying that if she didn’t give them an excuse, they would stop hurting women?

54. hurt women how? physically? mentally? hurt all women or just some?

    I (and others) have already explained that. It reinforces misogynist notions that a woman is what she looks like rather than how she functions, that a woman becomes more or less “womanly” or desirable depending the the aesthetic modifications she makes to her body. Whenever “womanly” is taken to mean an artificial male-created form, and not female human being, with all of the human functions (physiological and intellectual) that entails, it is *harmful* to women in that it encourages women to destroy/modify/mutilate healthy tissue in service of a misogynist beauty ideal.

    and is it Ren’s fault that her choices are used by misogynists? isn’t that the misogynists’ fault?

    Nope, not her fault. At the same time, it’s nothing to be celebrated on a feminist site that a woman is helping (and voluntarily, no less) the misogynists out in any way. So, while I don’t vilify Ren for supporting the patriarchy, I will not celebrate/justify/apologize for her support of the patriarchy.

    are you saying that if she didn’t give them an excuse, they would stop hurting women?

    Nope. I’m not saying that either. But at least you’re admitting that she is, in fact, giving them an excuse, whether men need another one or not.

55. I (and others) have already explained that.

    well, not in a way that made sense to me. call me a moron if you must.

    Nope. I’m not saying that either. But at least you’re admitting that she is, in fact, giving them an excuse, whether men need another one or not.

    I don’t think getting one’s breasts modified “gives men an excuse”. I’m not “admitting” anything.

    misogyny is in the heart, not the eyes.

56. What it comes down to is the old “personal is political” deal.

    I’m not attacking Ren or suggesting that she isn’t really and truly personally satisfied with her choice. I’m merely pointing out that our actions, regardless of our motives, have political implications. No need to pretend as if the political ramifications of a person’s personal choices don’t exist. Moreover, there isn’t any need to pretend as if saying, in so many words, that the personal is, in fact, political, amounts to an ad hominem attack against a person.

    Hold on a sec. I think it might behoove you to read Carol Hanisch’s new intro to “The Personal is Political.”:

    Recognizing the need to fight male supremacy as a movement instead of blaming the individual woman for her oppression was where the Pro-Woman Line came in. It challenged the old anti-woman line that used spiritual, psychological, metaphysical, and pseudo-historical explanations for women’s oppression with a real, materialist analysis for why women do what we do. (By materialist, I mean in the Marxist materialist (based in reality) sense, not in the “desire for consumer goods” sense.) Taking the position that “women are messed over, not messed up” took the focus off individual struggle and put it on group or class struggle, exposing the necessity for an independent WLM to deal with male supremacy.

    IOW, “The personal is political” is not supposed to be a club to beat individual women with for capitulating to the patriarchy, but rather a means to present problems that women experience as political problems and not individual ones.

57. maybe it’s as simple as this –

    “if men didn’t like big breasts, no woman would feel the need to have big(ger) breasts, or the need to obtain them by any means necessary.”

    which, still, to my mind, shakes out that you’re saying “if men like it, women shouldn’t do it.”

58. Ren, thanks for sharing your side. I’ve never known anyone who got breast implants, so I’m glad to hear your perspective. But I still don’t really understand why you would do that. I’ve been small-chested my whole life (36A), and when I had short hair I was confused for a boy too. But I’ve never even considered implants. There’s gotta be another reason for getting breast implants than just being small chested, because being small chested isn’t bad. Bras are cheaper, and you can go without, even when exercising. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve exercised or done something active with large chested friends just to have them realize that their bras don’t have enough support to do that and they have to stop because of the pain. I don’t know if breast implants have that problem.

    As for the difference between hair dying and makeup or whatever and breast implants, Ren, your description on your blog of what getting yours involved highlights the difference, I think. Hair dying does not involve going under anesthesia and being cut, it doesn’t involve pain or sleeping sitting up like you had to. Breast implants and other forms of surgery are just a much bigger deal than things that are not surgery.

59. IOW, “The personal is political” is not supposed to be a club to beat individual women with for capitulating to the patriarchy, but rather a means to present problems that women experience as political problems and not individual ones.

    In what way does what I said contradict that? I’m not beating anyone over the head with anything. If women want to get breast implants, they should get them, but the action remains a part of the “political problems” that women as a class face.

60. In what way does what I said contradict that? I’m not beating anyone over the head with anything.

    Now who’s being disingenous? You’re castigating Ren for getting implants because it gives misogynists an excuse and puts pressure on other women to conform. Instead of, say, asking her to think a little more about why she felt she wanted them beyond her stated reasons, and putting the problem squarely on the shoulders of the patriarchy.

61. You’re castigating Ren for getting implants because it gives misogynists an excuse and puts pressure on other women to conform.

    No. In fact, I stated very clearly that I’m not vilifying her. At the same time I’m not going to pretend as if her actions do not have political implications.

    Instead of, say, asking her to think a little more about why she felt she wanted them beyond her stated reasons, and putting the problem squarely on the shoulders of the patriarchy.

    That sounds a whole lot like the “substituting judgment” you were just erroneously chastising me for. I thought you said that she and she alone gets to decide why she did what she did.

62. If women want to get breast implants, they should get them, but the action remains a part of the “political problems” that women as a class face.

    but, if women as a class face these “political problems”, then women shouldn’t get breast implants even if they want them, because they shouldn’t want them, bad for Class Woman as they are.

    If indeed Class Woman exists as you say it does.

63. I think there are a lot of situations in which people’s bodies are altered to more closely fit societal expectations that people rarely criticize. Braces were mentioned; there certainly is a cosmetic element to them (I’m more traditionally attractive since I’ve had mine), but there’s also a definite medical component (without having four teeth pulled and the rest moved around some, I’d probably have to have my teeth floated like a horse’s on a regular basis).

    Also think about reconstructive surgery. After a mastectomy, women frequently choose to “regain their womanhood” by getting implants. Are we to criticize them for not being strong enough to spit in the face of patriarchal standards while they’re recovering from cancer, tell them they should just learn to love their body the way it is? What about children with non-life-threatening birth defects? Do we tell a six-year-old to nut up and learn to love his one ear even as he’s being taunted about it on the playground?

    I’m not trying to defend Heidi here; it’s obvious that she’s got issues that go far deeper than her breasts. And I’m not even trying to defend Ren, although I’m certainly not condemning her. I’m just saying that not every decision to alter one’s body is made from a “I want to look more like everyone else” frame of mind – or that even if it is made from that frame of mind, it’s not always in a “bowing to the patriarchy” context.

    I, personally, wouldn’t feel comfortable telling an Asian woman not to get eyelid surgery, because I’m privileged – I have traditional Caucasian features, and I don’t know what it’s like to go through life without them. I’d encourage her not to get the surgery, and I’d work toward a world where gender and race indicators aren’t a factor in things like hiring practices, but I’m not going to criticize her for her choice. As someone with white skin and straight hair and moderately sized breasts and a moderately sized nose and ears that lie flat, I’m not going to tell someone who really feels uncomfortable in their body that they can’t change it, because it’s bad for women and they should just learn to love themselves the way they are.

64. Antiprincess, I was going to reply to this:

    but, if women as a class face these “political problems”, then women shouldn’t get breast implants even if they want them, because they shouldn’t want them, bad for Class Woman as they are.

    If indeed Class Woman exists as you say it does.

    but then realized I might not actually understand what you’re saying, here. Could you please elaborate on your last post?

65. sorry, willa, for being unclear.

    I mean – I’m wondering if it’s inconsistent to assert that one thinks it’s okay to get breast implants (“if women want breast implants, they should get them”) while at the same time feeling that breast implants are damaging to Class Woman.

66. “It’s the celebration/justification/aplogia (sic.) of the concession that I (and others) think is problematic, and I don’t think it’s a “substitution of judgment game” to point that out.”

    Of course it is. For one thing, nobody’s here celebrating gratuitously, or apologizing gratuitously.

    “To some other people what matters most is whether or not it was worth it to women as a class.”

    This is a flawed argument for three reasons.

    First, while one could argue that some decisions should be made with this in mind, bod mod isn’t one of them. One woman deciding to get implants will not affect others’ ability to decline this choice. It may make her want to do it more or maybe less. But it ultimately won’t change her options one iota.

    In contrast, there are decisions that actually do affect other women’s options. Providing painful testimony that could help prevent similar harm to other women. Not dropping out of a job when in doing so you’ll add another statistic suggesting that employers investment in women isn’t as guaranteed to pay off. Smoking away from your kids, or quitting because they tell you to do it.

    Second, there’s no valid argument that the more women get implants or another procedure, it will become pro forma. No matter how many women get a certain procedure, there will always be people who prefer the natural look and people who enjoy the bragging rights that come with having it.

    Finally, as women, we are trained to do for others. The reason, of course, that many of us are expected to work 50 hours a week is that we’re expected to have wives. We are trained to feel that we are deficient either in family contribution or professionally, or often both. It’s healthy to have take the occasional step because it makes us feel good, if we’ve fully thought out the downside. Obviously, we all know people who’ve gone overboard with body modification to the point of an addiction. That’s a separate issue.

    Getting a procedure about something that’s troubling, if one has the money and feels the downside is worth it, should not join the many other women’s decisions that the world feels privileged to judge.

67. I knew a woman who died during a facelift. Bet she wouldn’t have said it was worth it.

68. I know someone who suffered irreparable brain damage during a root canal because of the anasthesia. Surgery of whatever kind has risks.

69. “Surgery of whatever kind has risks.”

    Definitely. I got breast implants ten years ago to correct a A/B vs B/C difference, although admittedly I got talked into getting Ds. I went out to lunch after the surgery and was working out in the gym two days later. I got a dental procedure the same week — to correct a lost tooth due to a root canal done by a dental student buddy in college to save money as I didn’t have insurance – which was much more problematic and painful.

    I’m not here to celebrate either or cheerlead anyone to do anything. But there’s a word for an overarching body which attempts to dictate how women make decisions, and it’s not feminism.

70. Thanks, antiprincess, that clears everything up for me.

71. justice walks:

    One, I never said getting implants was a feminist act. Ever. A woman has choices to do what she will with her body, and I support those, no matter what they are. Feminist? Maybe not. Do I care? Not particularly. Not every decision I make in my life is made while thinking “Is this feminist? How will it effect the whole of class woman?”, Nor need it be. Nor need any womans. I offered my side because I saw some pretty generalized things being said about women who got implants, so as a woman with them, I decided to speak up. How terrible of me, I know.

    Marle: I had a hell of a time buying clothes beforehand, much easier now. And I don’t have to wear a bra either 🙂

    And just in general…I’ve never told another woman in my life to GET IMPLANTS. In fact, I am pretty open about the damn, it hurts part to people who ask. But if a woman wants them, or is considering them, and she examines her choice, well, it’s still her choice, and I will support that. You know, there is another thing women do that is terribly painful, can be deadly, conforms to patriarchal will, and changes their bodies forever, and it is natural as hell: having babies (or hell, preventing such things via tubal ligations, which does strike out the patriarchy part, substitutes “unnatural”, the rest remain). Would folk be all over a woman for those things the same way they are about a woman who has implants? Why or why not?

    Yep, me having implants does conform me to some patriarchal ideal of female. I have other features and modifications which certainly do not. End all beat all is, however, a woman has the choice and options to do various things to her body, and each woman’s reasons for doing so are often not what fits a stereotype or is easily put in a net package. ANd thoughts about that need to change. 50 years ago any woman who refered a natural look would have been written off, and woman with a tattoo would have been considered a criminal or “trashy”, any woman who wore “too much make up” or a low cut shirt and short skirt would have been considered “a slut” and those types of sterotypes are hurtful and damaging to those women. Well, same goes for the stereotypes and treatment of women who get non-medically needed plastic surgery, of any sort. No, it may not be a feminist act, but they are still women, and people. Not stereotypes.

72. I’m not here to celebrate either or cheerlead anyone to do anything. But there’s a word for an overarching body which attempts to dictate how women make decisions, and it’s not feminism.

    Good thing I’m not attempting to dictate how women make decisions then. Women can make whatever decisions they feel they need to make (for whatever reasons) and even call themselves feminists while doing it, but it doesn’t change the fact that certain actions have undeniable pro-patriarchal, anti-woman political effects.

73. Indeed. You don’t get back at someone by being what they wanted in the first place. You get back at them by living a good life and not letting their behaviour influence you.

74. …I’ll also add, I neverappoligized for getting them either….

75. I really don’t think justicewalks is being a meanie to anyone here. She is simply trying to remind us that our choices do effect others.

    I’m getting laser hair removal on my legs. Total capitulation to the patriarchy. It would be silly to try to claim it was anything but that. If it weren’t for unreasonable beauty standards and sexism, then I wouldn’t have any desire to not have leg hair. I’ve been taught that my leg hair is gross and unwomanly. And yes, I’m giving in. Doesn’t make me a bad feminist, but it does effect other people. I would never say it doesn’t. It’s not just about me, it’s about what my niece will think when she sees my hairless legs and compares them with her little hairy ones. It’s about how my sister is now concerned with her bikini line when she never used to be.

    I really thought that I had thought this all through, I knew I was given in to the patriarchy, but I really didn’t think it would effect other people. But it does. Our choices do have implications, even if we wish they didn’t!

76. buggle – are you sure this choice won’t make you feel worse about yourself and not better?

    it sounds like you’ll regret this choice in the long run.

    or maybe I’m reading you wrong.

77. Well, like all of our choices, it’s my choice, but not really. I don’t regret making the choice, but I wish that I just didn’t care about my stupid leg hair. Or, I wish that I wasn’t forced to care about my stupid leg hair.

78. I don’t think anyone here is deceiving ourselves that our choices won’t affect others at all. But we’re distinguishing between choices that actually affect options for other women and those that really don’t.

    Give women some credit. Just because Buggle is getting laser hair treatment, doesn’t mean someone who has no desire to do this (eg, me) will.

    Each woman can make the decision about whether a change will make her more of a fashion victim or not. For some women, evaluation of a procedure may result in a realization that it will create a time-draining, depressing cycle. For others, eg Buggle’s decision, it may result in a big time-saver and actually less focus on appearance. In my case with the implants, I stopped focusing on lopsidedness, which right or wrong had taken up some mental time for me previously. My prep time for any event is never more than a half hour from bed to door, which is less than what’s necessary for many men. And yes, that’s including a shower.

79. I mean, it sounds like the guilt you (might) feel at setting a bad example will outweigh the relief you (might) feel at getting your hair removed.

80. Pingback: Celluloid Sallies » 2007 » September » 28

81. I feel mixed about it, antiprincess. I did before I started the treatment, and I still do.

    I did realize I was spending a crazy amount of time obsessing over my leg hair. For years. So part of my decision was “Ok, I know I’m totally caving in here, but I just don’t want to think about it anymore!”

    But, my getting it normalizes laser hair removal. It will lower the prices for other people, making it more and more accessible. If I talk about it, people get interested. I’m sure there are other things that I’m not thinking about right now, too.

    I’m not beating myself up or anything. I mean, I feel a bit wimpy that I couldn’t just be a hairy-legged feminist! I think women who do that are super duper cool and awesome. But I’m not going to beat myself up for this.

82. “It will lower the prices for other people, making it more and more accessible.”

    Well, this of all reasons isn’t convincing. Shouldn’t all decisions be more accessible across class lines? Whether it’s abortion or dental care or cosmetic stuff, I think it’s reprehensible to say that it’s good if fewer people are tempted to do it because some of them can’t afford it.

83. Reprehensible? Really?

    That wasn’t a great example, just one that popped in my head.

    I wouldn’t put laser hair removal anywhere near the categories of abortion and dental care.

84. Thanks, buggle, for giving my words an honest reading.

    octo(pussy)galore, I think that in this context, increased access means increased pressure on oppressed people to modify themeselves to suit the tastes of the dominating class (males). To say that this is a good thing is like saying, “Well, shouldn’t we make selling kidneys an equally viable option for all people?” when you know full well that only people who are already oppressed by poverty would ever choose to do so in the first place.

85. Nope. Increased access just means increased access. I’m not arguing that there should be increased pressure on poor women to do anything, and an “honest reading” of my comment (as well as of my screen name) makes this clear. I don’t think it’s great for poor women to have an inability to do anything they want to do that more wealthy women can do.

    The pressure to do these things doesn’t come from price. It comes from the outside world. Lowering the price doesn’t increase the “pressure.” It just reduces the power differential between rich and poor. Do you feel that’s a bad thing?

86. Octogalore-are you really arguing for increased access to breast implants and hair removal for poor women?

    Confused.

87. buggle – does it help you forgive (?) your leg hair if you know that it’s only outside pressures that make you hate (?) it? would you not mind it, really, if it weren’t for those outside pressures?

    (I’m all full of question marks only because I don’t know you well, and this is all pretty personal, and maybe I’m reading you completely wrong. if I’m making you uncomfortable, I will certainly back off with all apologies.)

    on the other hand, I believe it’s perfectly okay (not even okay-but-not-feminist, but simply okay) to make choices based on one’s own preferences, personal tastes, or mental health.

    if the mental space freed up by not having to obsess about leg hair is just going to be occupied by fears of doing harm to Class Woman, I don’t see any net gain for you. (isn’t laser hair removal pretty permanent? would this whole leg hair thing haunt you the rest of your days?)

    But, I am clearly not you. maybe you see a net gain that I don’t, and I am not trying to undercut that.

    my own personal legs? wookiee-riffic! extremely hairy. but not for political reasons. no matter how much leg hair I have, I don’t think I can ever credibly claim to have done Class Woman any favors.

88. Lowering the price doesn’t increase the “pressure.” It just reduces the power differential between rich and poor.

    Breast implants are about misogyny. I’m not sure how you think that making poor women equal victims of misogyny to rich women has anything to do with power. Making poor women as oppressed by misogyny as rich women when they don’t have medical insurance to buffer them from any ill effects of the surgery, for example, isn’t helping poor women. It’s imposing upon them the requirements of rich womanhood without offering them the safeguards that rich women’s class affords them.

89. Octogalore-are you really arguing for increased access to breast implants and hair removal for poor women?

    hm. I wonder if lowering the price would reduce the demand, over time?

    are larger/”fakened” breasts and laser-smooth skin a sign of disposable income, therefore an economic (not just sexual) status symbol, therefore desirable for what they say about one’s wallet, in addition to whatever else they say?

    undercutting the “status” angle of those procedures might diminish demand. if one is the sort of person who makes those decisions based on social-climbing status-seeking, why would she want to get procedures that just anyone can get?

    but back to your question –

    why not? I’m not sure I’d ever say “I’m okay with this option (even grudgingly) for rich women, but not for poor women,” where “poor women” always seems to = “poorer than me.”

    for me, yeah, access is access. why should some things (even those things some find unpleasant) be only for the wealthy?

90. Not only that, but decreasing the price for breast implants enough to allow poor women to spend 3 months’ worth of income on an unnecessary, uninsured surgical procedure isn’t the same thing at all as when a rich woman spends a disposable sum of income on the same procedure.

91. Making poor women as oppressed by misogyny as rich women when they don’t have medical insurance to buffer them from any ill effects of the surgery, for example, isn’t helping poor women. It’s imposing upon them the requirements of rich womanhood without offering them the safeguards that rich women’s class affords them.

    otoh, JW does have a point there, especially if one defines every breast implant done on every woman as misogyny and nothing but.

92. antiprincess- I get what you are saying in your first post. I definitely don’t spend much time thinking about how my hair removal will effect (affect? I always get that wrong!) others. I’m not obsessing over it or anything, but I think it would be silly of me to deny that I’m just doing this for me, ya know?

    That’s very cool that you have hairy legs 🙂 Seriously. I really respect that. If it’s not for political reasons, can I ask why? Just out of curiosity and nosiness 🙂 Even if you aren’t doing it for political reasons, I think you are doing good for all women. You are showing an alternative, what women really look like. You are showing other women that they don’t have to shave or remove hair. You are showing men what women really look like. I think those are all great things!

    It’s not like a poor woman can’t get laser hair removal. She could put it on a credit card and pay it off for the rest of her life. It’s not like you have to meet some sort of income requirement. So they have access, in that way. This seems like a really weird discussion! Justicewalks said it better than I could hope to.

93. Breast implants are about misogyny.

    Tell that to a close friend of mine who has one breast implant (and a small one, in case that matters to you) because a childhood accident left her with only one developing breast, and a lopsided distribution of weight.

    They’re just straightforwardly about misogyny and nothing but misogyny though, huh? Every time you make a simplistic equation like that, you erase some people’s lives and hard decisions that don’t necessarily have anything to do with misogyny.

    Yes, I do think more people should have access to breast implants, for people like my friend. She was lucky enough to have that implant paid for by insurance. There are a lot of people with real medical needs out there that aren’t covered, though — like almost all trans people.

94. Sorry about your friend, Holly, but, yeah, if we weren’t a misogynist culture, your friend would not have felt the need to fake a breast she’d lost in an accident. People would be allowed to wear the signs and scars of life (including wrinkles) without shame.

95. Did you miss the part where I mentioned that her torso felt lopsided to her with one B cup and a scar on the other side? There are reasons for reconstructive surgery — or constructive, in this and other cases — that have little or nothing to do with other people. There’s a reason why her surgery was covered by insurance, and why others should be too. Look, I agree that social pressures are everywhere, that a lot of the time their influence on us is unconscious, that they’re misogynistic. I just think it’s really shortsighted and dismissive to insist that there isn’t anything else — that it’s all just “you did this to conform.”

    I know this is a side-topic from the questioning and assumptions being targeted at Ren, but hey, Ren can speak for herself and tell you more about why to her, modifying her breasts felt necessary. Open your mind up, there might be more to the story than the one aspect (albeit a very important one) your tunnel vision is staring at.

96. That’s very cool that you have hairy legs 🙂 Seriously. I really respect that. If it’s not for political reasons, can I ask why? Just out of curiosity and nosiness 🙂 Even if you aren’t doing it for political reasons, I think you are doing good for all women. You are showing an alternative, what women really look like. You are showing other women that they don’t have to shave or remove hair. You are showing men what women really look like. I think those are all great things!

    hahaha!

    I am the laziest girl EVER. that’s why my leg hair is an inch and a half long, and longer. I just don’t give a shit.

    World, you are lucky I even shower and wear clothes at all, much less scrape all the hair off my legs with something sharp.

    it bothers my resident Patriarch, but not enough for him to make a fuss about it. even if he did, is that a good reason to break up or something? seriously.

    so I go about my business, once in a blue moon wearing pants or ankle-length skirts to avoid getting hassled by my parents, but primarily, fuck it. no one in my professional or social sphere has ever, I mean EVER, said to me “hair! on female legs! ew! you’re fired!” or “I can’t be friends with you!”

    though I am certain there are people out there for whom that HAS happened.

    It’s not like a poor woman can’t get laser hair removal. She could put it on a credit card and pay it off for the rest of her life. It’s not like you have to meet some sort of income requirement. So they have access, in that way. This seems like a really weird discussion! Justicewalks said it better than I could hope to.

    poor women got credit cards on your planet? let me pack my bags! (kidding, kidding! not trying to be snarky, just making a joke. laughing WITH, not laughing AT. sometimes hard to tell on the internet.)

97. “Octogalore-are you really arguing for increased access to breast implants and hair removal for poor women? Confused.”
    I am pretty confused about why, in fact, this is so confusing to you.

    I am not suggesting poor women SHOULD get more surgeries. I’m saying that it’s patronizing for us to decide that they should have less access than rich women.

    Of course, when I give money, it’s to poverty legal services, medical services, or foundations like the Grameen Foundation which allow poor women in third world access to loans to pursue entrepreneurial ventures. I do not give to any funds, if such exist, geared towards cosmetic surgery for poor women.

    But suggesting that keeping price high to keep them from making informed decisions? That’s not arguing for increased access, it’s arguing for decreased patriarchy.

    “Breast implants are about misogyny. I’m not sure how you think that making poor women equal victims of misogyny to rich women has anything to do with power.”

    For example, this language suggests that lower prices “make” poor women “victims.” This is insulting in the extreme. How would I feel if Paris Hilton decided that the price of my vodka (which I don’t drink, but for purposes of argument) should be $10,000 a bottle because I am too irresponsible to make decisions about drinking? Not great.

98. I have inch-and-half long leg hair too, and it’s also out of sheer laziness. I actually prefer the feeling of my legs being smooth, but you know what? Too lazy. And I don’t really care enough. Plus, when you’re naked in bed with someone, if you ask me stubble is worse than longer hair, which feels softer.

    Am I inspiring anyone or setting an example? Somehow, my experience leads me to believe that the answer is no. I can’t really conceive of my non-leg-shaving as a political act. I have other political acts that I am more invested in… even voting, and lord knows that’s sort of useless a lot of the time. I don’t shave my legs for myself — because I’m lazy, and because I don’t like the nagging feeling that I “ought” to for other people.

99. And to top all this off… hasn’t Carol Hanisch been writing recently about how the phrase she’s credited with, “the personal is political” as a phrase was never inteded to mean “all of women’s personal choices must be examined for their political ramifications?” It’s a perversion of the original point.

100. See, I’m really lazy too. REALLY LAZY. But I just couldn’t stand my leg hair. I didn’t shave for years, but then I caved. So yeah, I think you ARE doing a political act, whether you see it like that or not. And you are inspiring to me, so there! 🙂

     Also, I HAVE gotten shit for not shaving, and for having hairy legs. I’ve heard about it from a number of people. That’s the reason I started shaving in 7th grade. I don’t know who you all hang out with, but my hairy legs were noticed and examined and commented on by various people.

     octo- all sorts of people get credit cards. Credit card companies don’t really care if you have money, they just want to suck you dry with interest.

     I don’t recall ever saying that we should keep the prices high in order to prevent poor women from getting cosmetic surgery. That’s just silly. My point was that the more people who do this, the more it is normalized and even becomes expected.

     Like pubic hair- it is more and more expected that everyone trims/shaves their pubic area. The more people that do it, the more “normal” it becomes. Which adds to the pressure on people who don’t choose to do that.

     Now, cutting and trimming your labia is becoming a new “normal” thing to do. It’s frightening, really.

101. Did you miss the part where I mentioned that her torso felt lopsided to her with one B cup and a scar on the other side? There are reasons for reconstructive surgery — or constructive, in this and other cases — that have little or nothing to do with other people. There’s a reason why her surgery was covered by insurance…

     Considering that there have been societies in which women being groomed for battle were expected to undergo a voluntary mastectomy of one of their breasts, I have a hard time believing that lack of a breast would mechanically affect balance, or that a breast implant would improve a person’s movement in any way.

     I’d say the same thing about a man sporting a prosthetic testicle. He might have very legitmate (though still patriarchy-induced) feelings of inadequacy and lopsidedness stemming from his lack of a ball, but he won’t be convincing me any time soon that his discomfort has nothing at all to do with our culture’s obsession with form over function. Though I will say that men, as a class, feel less pressure than women do as a class to approximate a particular form.

     And as for your friend’s procedure being covered by insurance, insurance companies do the bidding of the patriarchy all the time in many ways. More readily offering Viagra than birth control is a big one. I’d say encouraging survivors of either a traumatic or surgical mastectomy to even out their racks is another.

102. Also, I want to be very clear that this is NOT about blaming women, or holding women responsible for the shitty choices we have to make, living in this world. This is NOT about making women ‘fess up, or do penance for some feminist transgression.

     That being said, I personally find it very useful to look at my personal choices and see how they are being influenced by our culture.

103. “octo- all sorts of people get credit cards. Credit card companies don’t really care if you have money, they just want to suck you dry with interest.

     I don’t recall ever saying that we should keep the prices high in order to prevent poor women from getting cosmetic surgery. That’s just silly. My point was that the more people who do this, the more it is normalized and even becomes expected. ”

     The latter is a valid point. However, you did in effect say we should keep the prices high, in suggesting it’d be bad if they were lowered. And the credit card analogy doesn’t fit. Sure, some people shouldn’t have credit cards and probably shouldn’t be making vanity purchases they can’t afford. But we in our intact homes with whatever amenities shouldn’t sit in judgment of who gets to do these things. And arguing that prices lowering is a bad thing, like it or not, is exactly that.

104. And to top all this off… hasn’t Carol Hanisch been writing recently about how the phrase she’s credited with, “the personal is political” as a phrase was never inteded to mean “all of women’s personal choices must be examined for their political ramifications?” It’s a perversion of the original point.

     yeah, I included a link to the new intro back up in #56.

105. Well, like all of our choices, it’s my choice, but not really. I don’t regret making the choice, but I wish that I just didn’t care about my stupid leg hair. Or, I wish that I wasn’t forced to care about my stupid leg hair.

     Oh I know where you’re coming from Buggle — I was a “hairy-legged feminist” for some years when I lived in San Francisco and it wasn’t a big deal in the circles I ran in. But then I moved back to the south for grad school. I think I lasted about a year and a half before giving in and shaving. I just got SO TIRED of my body hair being a great big topic of conversation! I was finally like, “FINE FINE ALREADY, I SHAVED! Now can we please talk about SOMETHING ELSE???” So I agree, I wish I wasn’t forced to care about my stupid leg hair, but other people kept making it an issue every single damn day, and eventually I caved.

     As for braces, oh I’m resisting the idea (and I love you BabyGirl for saying you like us folks with gap-toothed smiles!) and I would never give in on that one if it were just cosmetic. I REALLY don’t want to do braces at age 40. But my dentist is telling me that, the way things are, I’m putting bad stress on my back teeth and they’re actually starting to crack a little, so it’s not just a cosmetic issue any more. And It’s only going to get worse. I’d like to keep my teeth.

     Of course, even though it is not for cosmetic reasons, dental insurance still won’t pay for braces for anyone over 18. [..sigh…]

106. Considering that there have been societies in which women being groomed for battle were expected to undergo a voluntary mastectomy of one of their breasts, I have a hard time believing that lack of a breast would mechanically affect balance, or that a breast implant would improve a person’s movement in any way.

     Are you really comparing a possibly made-up legend that’s based on a theoretical etiology of amazon from “a mazos,” even though all artwork depicting the Amazons shows them with two breasts, to what a living person says about how her own body feels? Does that show that where your priorities are? Not with listening to human beings, but with shoring up your ideas?

     And yeah, I would also say the same thing about a man with a prosthetic testicle: there’s nothing wrong with a guy getting one if the way his scrotum swings feels more “right” to him with two. And that’s way less socially-noticeable, except to his doctor & sexual partners. Yes, absolutely it seems quite likely to me that there is more going on there than JUST “men are supposed to have two testicles so I have to as well.” And you know, most people are more capable of thinking about those kinds of pressures and how they’re factoring into their decisions than you might give them credit for. I for one strongly believe in the human capacity for choice and growth and diversity of feelings and “right decisions.”

     We don’t understand that much about proprioception, the “sixth sense” that has to do with how people inhabit their bodies and feel right, wrong, absent, etc. Researchers think it has to do with a model of your body that exists in your brain. There’s evidence of this. Assuming that everything about bodies is purely socially driven is simply foolish.

     I agree about insurance companies — and obviously, I pointed out a lot of things aren’t covered by insurance that should be, and I’ll say that the reverse is probably true too. I advocate for a healthcare model that involves informed choice and consent, partnership between provider and patient — not pressure to get medical treatment, or pressure against / denial of medical treatment.

107. Holly, I’m pretty sure she is saying that anyone can make whatever choice they want. Just that in her opinion, these choices are influenced by the world we live in. We don’t live in a vacuum.

     Octo- the credit card thing is not an analogy. I was just saying that things that cost a lot of money may not be inaccessible to poor people. That’s all.

     I never said we “should” keep the price high. I said that the lowering of prices (which happens with supply and demand) will lead to more people being financially able to do it. Which will lead to more people doing it and it becoming that much more normalized. That was my only point. Like I said, not a great example. Don’t get too hung up on it.

     Beth-yes exactly! It’s like enough already! Can we focus on something other than the amount of body hair I have? Sheesh.

108. And you are inspiring to me, so there! 🙂

     aw, jeez. don’t say that! I am so not inspiring. I am NOT a role model. I’m not even much of a scale model.

     Also, I HAVE gotten shit for not shaving, and for having hairy legs. I’ve heard about it from a number of people. That’s the reason I started shaving in 7th grade. I don’t know who you all hang out with, but my hairy legs were noticed and examined and commented on by various people.

     wow, I am very sorry to hear that. that must have made you feel awful.

     I hang out with people who don’t think I suck, primarily. since you asked. of course, it took me thirty-nine years to find the four or five people in the world who don’t think I suck, but that’s how it goes.

109. Holly, I’m pretty sure she is saying that anyone can make whatever choice they want. Just that in her opinion, these choices are influenced by the world we live in. We don’t live in a vacuum.

     If you read back, that’s almost exactly what I said at the beginning of a post too. My point is that social influences are not the ONLY reason why people do things, but a whole lot of assumptions are made, here and in other contexts, that they must be the primary or only ones. It’s a simplistic view. It’s the only way you can say things like “breast implants are about misogyny and nothing but misogyny” unless you’re conscious and comfortable with erasing some people’s lives and experiences with breast implants.

110. My point is that social influences are not the ONLY reason why people do things

     We disagree, Holly. Aside from eating, pissing, shitting, and bleeding, there isn’t a whole lot that isn’t socially influenced. You talk about the one-testicled man not feeling as though he was swinging “right.” Why would he think it was “wrong” for his ball to swing as though he’d had an orchiectomy, when he obviously had, in the first place?

     There is no such thing as a medically necessary (which is different from an insurance-approved one) breast implant. A breast implant has never been performed to restore or improve a person’s ability to physically function. It is an entirely elective procedure, every single time, even in cancer patients.

     The fact that it is offered at all is a function of the capitalist misogyny of our culture.

     It makes people feel better because it shields them from certain manifestations of misogyny – not every manifestation of it, of course. I’m sorry, but I really do think that people feeling uncomfortable in their own fully functioning bodies is a manifestation of oppression.

     Mastectomies, on the other hand, especially partial ones, are performed all the time for medically necessary reasons and for activity improvement purposes. This is true whether women did so in the past or not.

111. I really do think that people feeling uncomfortable in their own fully functioning bodies is a manifestation of oppression.

     guess that depends on one’s definition of “fully functioning.”

112. I am the laziest girl EVER

     Not while I’m alive, antiprincess. Not while I’m alive.

     As for the topic under discussion, eh, if I was convinced that larger breasts would make it possible to walk down the street without feeling continuously self-conscious, if I thought it would allow me to be even for one moment comfortable in public, I would be on the operating table in the flat minimum of time it would take to get there and screw what anyone thought of it, ’cause it’s not worth losing the potential of one’s life to make a political point that’s unlikely even to be noticed. But it wouldn’t, and so I haven’t.

113. really do think that people feeling uncomfortable in their own fully functioning bodies is a manifestation of oppression.

     guess that depends on one’s definition of “fully functioning.”

     A woman’s body is fully functioning if she has small breasts or no breasts or even one breast. While I don’t want to shame or criticize anyone who had implants, there’s no medically necessary reason for implants and I don’t think we should push women to alter their bodies by called them not “fully functioning”. Our culture should accept women as they are, no matter how flat chested or uneven they are, and not push them into unnecessary surgery. I respect women’s choices to do what they want, but I do not respect pushing the idea that implants should be a default or expected decision because a woman’s body is not an average or preferred shape. Calling someone’s body no “fully functioning” because she didn’t choose to get implants is just as much body shaming as mocking a woman for having “fake” breasts.

114. You talk about the one-testicled man not feeling as though he was swinging “right.” Why would he think it was “wrong” for his ball to swing as though he’d had an orchiectomy, when he obviously had, in the first place?

     What if he doesn’t want to swing like a guy who’s had an orchiectomy? What if he wants to swing like the guy he was before had the orchiectomy? Who are we to say, “Sorry, dude, but you’ve had nut cancer, you’re now down to one nut, and you’re going to have to fucking deal with it”?

     If a woman has had a mastectomy and doesn’t want to look different, there are all manner of prostheses that can make her appear “normal.” But for some women, that lack of a breast is a constant reminder of what she’s been through, that she’s not, in whatever small way, the same way she was before she had cancer. Where do we get the right to say to her, “Learn to deal. For the sake of women everywhere, you have to just get the hell over it. As much as that scar is a constant reminder of the most miserable period of your life, you’re just going to have to suck it up, like one of those chicks in a Lifetime movie, because if you get a breast reconstruction, the patriarchy wins”?

     I’m not going to tell another woman what she feels. I’m not going to try and decipher her motivations. If she says she wants implants, or a reconstruction, or a third breast, or whatever, I’m not going to be so patronizing as to tell her she wants it for the wrong reason, and so she can’t have it. I’m not in her skin, I’m not in her head, and so I’m just going to have to trust her judgment and believe what she says her motives are. If we want to end patriarchally-imposed body image issues, the place to start is with the patriarchy, not with judging the women who are the victims of the patriarchy.

115. A woman’s body is fully functioning if she has small breasts or no breasts or even one breast. While I don’t want to shame or criticize anyone who had implants, there’s no medically necessary reason for implants and I don’t think we should push women to alter their bodies by called them not “fully functioning”.

     oh, I am sorry. let me try to explain.

     yeah, the body can “work” (function) in many sorts of shapes and contours, with many aspects larger or smaller or nonexistent – but if the mind won’t work with the body for whatever reason, I think functionality as a whole does diminish.

     is the mind a part of the body? is the mind a part of a fully functioning body?

116. I’m not going to tell another woman what she feels. I’m not going to try and decipher her motivations. If she says she wants implants, or a reconstruction, or a third breast, or whatever, I’m not going to be so patronizing as to tell her she wants it for the wrong reason, and so she can’t have it. I’m not in her skin, I’m not in her head, and so I’m just going to have to trust her judgment and believe what she says her motives are.

     Yay! Applause! Waves lighter!

117. We disagree, Holly. Aside from eating, pissing, shitting, and bleeding, there isn’t a whole lot that isn’t socially influenced. You talk about the one-testicled man not feeling as though he was swinging “right.” Why would he think it was “wrong” for his ball to swing as though he’d had an orchiectomy, when he obviously had, in the first place?

     All behavioral traits are a complex mixture of biology and socialization. The nature/nurture dichotomy is really a false one.

     Besides, if behavior were just a matter of socialization, we’d all be in the kitchen baking pies right now.

118. A woman’s body is fully functioning if she has small breasts or no breasts or even one breast. While I don’t want to shame or criticize anyone who had implants, there’s no medically necessary reason for implants and I don’t think we should push women to alter their bodies by called them not “fully functioning”. Our culture should accept women as they are, no matter how flat chested or uneven they are, and not push them into unnecessary surgery. I respect women’s choices to do what they want, but I do not respect pushing the idea that implants should be a default or expected decision because a woman’s body is not an average or preferred shape. Calling someone’s body no “fully functioning” because she didn’t choose to get implants is just as much body shaming as mocking a woman for having “fake” breasts.

     This is exactly why I ended one of my previous posts with an emphasis on a patient’s informed consent and choice — not pressure FOR, not pressure AGAINST. The problem with this “fully functioning” talk is that I strongly disagree that there’s any universally applicable definition of “fully functioning.” For one woman, a body with no breasts may be fully functional. For another woman, it might not be. It’s up to those women to decide. Are you going to tell a woman who considers her breasts an important functional part of her body (for breastfeeding, for instance? for sexual stimulation?) that her breasts aren’t a functional part of her body, they’re just cosmetic, so she shouldn’t worry about losing them? I don’t think so. The blanket statements about what’s “functional” and what’s not are NOT necessary.

     And yes, I still stand by my statements that someone’s left testicle or someone’s left breast can serve more functions that simply being socially acceptable. The reason I mentioned proprioception earlier is that there ARE brain-linked feelings of “this feels right” and “this feels wrong” that have nothing to do with anyone else in the world besides you, your brain, and how it’s connected to your body. Look, I think we all agree that social influences pervade everything and influence everything — it’s not necessary to keep repeating that like someone doesn’t get it. The point is that social influences are NOT the be-all and end-all. You can’t insist that people have no other reasons, influences, feelings outside of “you’re doing that because society tells you to.”

     Aside from eating, pissing, shitting, and bleeding, there isn’t a whole lot that isn’t socially influenced.

     What are you talking about? The perceptoins and meanings of shit, piss, food, and blood are incredibly socially influenced too. And everything else — breast implants, whether you have one testicle or two, the feeling of your legs smooth or with hair — that stuff is socially influenced. And there are OTHER non-social sides to it as well. Just like your shit, piss, food, and blood. What’s so hard to get here?

     The point is: don’t tell people you know exactly why they’re doing things and that it’s all about social pressure. Because you don’t know that. Telling people you know what they’re thinking and why they think it is bullshit, holier-than-thou, oppressive behavior.

119. And yeah, what Vanessa just said. Nature/nurture, come on. Trying to split stuff up like that is so 1985.

120. To put it another way: my friend’s body was not fully, properly functioning, for her optimal well-being, comfort, balance, and happiness with only one breast.

     This does not mean, in any way, shape, or form, that other women can’t have fully functioning bodies with one or no breasts.

     It’s a matter of false universals, which are a serious problem in both health care and beauty standards.

     And yeah, there is too much pressure for everyone to have two breasts. The fact that that pressure exists, and needs to be opposed, also doesn’t invalidate my friend’s needs.

121. Vanessa and Holly, I am loving you more by the second.

122. On my way home I thought of a little fun thought experiment.

     Imagine that we all decided we wanted to continue this discussion in person, so we all got together in one place. Then, a horrifying and totally incomprehensible accident of some sort struck, and everyone’s breasts fell off (well, everyone with breasts).

     What would the best outcome of this tragic and awful situation be?

     Would the best thing for all of us to do be to say “well, we didn’t really need those. Our bodies have scars now instead of breasts, and that’s fine.”

     Is it possible that maybe each of us might have different choices in the matter? That some of us might want replacement breasts — even if they had to be made of silicone? Because we miss those parts of our bodies? Because we liked our breasts — the weight distribution, the silhouette, the way our clothes used to fit? Because they were important to us, for one reason or another? Is it possible that in the best of all possible outcomes, in an ideal society, some of us would decide to have breasts again, and some might not?

     I mean, do we really want a world where the health care providers of an ideal society would say — no, I’m sorry. You don’t have breasts anymore, you have a flat chest with scars, and that’s OK. We don’t do reconstructive surgery, because that would imply that your new flat chest with scars isn’t as good as your old one! You’ve just been moved from equally-good-column-A to equally-good-column-B, and you can’t go back. Because honestly, that’s what it sounds like justicewalks would advocate in #93.

     I believe in every human’s right to bodily self-determination. That not only means that you have the right to choose the kind of body you live in, but that in an ideal world, you would be able to do so free of social pressures as well. I don’t think we can do one of these things without the other. As we work to change the material conditions and oppressive social structures that make all of us feel like we “have to look” a certain way, we must also safeguard the right to do what you will with your own body — without coercion by force or low, or de facto peer pressure whether it’s from frat boys or your own feminist community. Whose opinion pushes you around more? As we try to make sure that everyone — disabled, fat, thin, able-bodied, trans, or otherwise — has autonomy over their own body and health, and isn’t subjected to medical treatments they don’t want or denied medical treatments they truly know they need, we must also fight to move towards a world where “autonomy” can truly include freedom from oppressive, misogynist, ableist, fatphobic social pressures as well.

     Yeah, it’s a little misty-eyed far-future visionary, but I still say — you shouldn’t do one without the other.

123. Holly:

     Personally, I’d try to figure out why the hell my breasts fell off.  That’s gotta be indicative of some deeper medical issue.

     I’m interested in your visionary future largely because I do believe that a lot of really weird female beautification rituals are societally imposed and enforced, and so I’m wicked curious as to how women would treat their breasts (presence or absence thereof) sans societal pressure.

124. Reading the comments, I keep wondering: Who is justicewalks to tell women what they should and shouldn’t do with their own bodies? If I talked like that to any woman I’d get my skull cracked open. Replacing a supposed patriarchal norm with a matriarchal norm seems like scant progress.

     Further, justicewalks doesn’t seem to know much about men, and what men want. To reiterate: Many men prefer smaller breasts. They look more youthful. They retain their shape better over time. You can stimulate all of them with your mouth. Moreover, most of the men in this group are actually turned off by big breasts. They do not register as sexy. On the other hand, men who prefer big breasts generally don’t mind smaller breasts. Breasts are breasts — they’re all good, is their attitude. Further, many men who like large breasts are turned off by large fake breasts. Therefore, enlarge your breasts for yourself only, because it will not help you conform to some imaginary patriarchal norm.

     Moreover, a man with one testicle likely has an undescended testicle. One is all that’s needed to reproduce, so his parents probably decided to forego the surgery when he was born.

125. Many women have the idea that all men want big breasts, the bigger the better, and if you’re flat-chested the best you can hope is to be grudgingly settled for by some poor fellow who can’t do any better. And I think this idea is what we need to get rid of, so people can be happy with themselves. I’m not saying it’s men’s fault, or the media’s fault, or whatever, all I can tell you is that this idea is common and makes many women, like Heidi Montag, feel like shit.

Comments are currently closed.