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One woman’s whinefest is another woman’s tragedy

… Or something. Such is what I gather from reading Megan McArdle’s post on the NYT income-anxiety piece, which Jill posted about here. Shockingly enough, I actually agree with The Artist Formerly Known As Jane Galt about one thing:

It’s hard to overstate the fundamental silliness of this story. This is not a “trend”, except insofar as this whole “women in the workplace” idea you’ve been reading so much about is really starting to take off.

This much is true. But the piece does speak to a certain ingrained anxiety that a lot of men have about dating women who make more money than they do, and a certain ingrained anxiety that a lot of women have about outearning the men they date. By the time we hit the age when we’re dealing with the work world and the dating world at the same time, we’ve got decades of cultural conditioning under our belts telling us that this is what we’re supposed to expect, that this is what’s right, what’s The Order of Things.

Of course, Megan dismisses all this as the simple whining of entitled white women rather than as the product of a culture that still treats women as accessories:

Yes, if you make a decent salary, some of the men you meet will make less than you. But many more will not. And any lingering problems in this department can be readily overcome by letting go of the fairy princess fantasy where Prince Daddy provides everything worth having; or, alternatively, by not dating men who make less money than you do. If this is still not enough–if you want to date sensitive artistic types who still play the role of Big Earner–well, then, it should be a relatively simple matter to find a lower paying job.

Er, wait — is it really such a good idea to date men who make less than you do, Megan?

Speaking as the Emissary From Your Thirties, you know that amazing guy who just got back from Africa and tells hilarious stories and dates, like, everyone you know? The one your best friend quit her job to go to Tuvalu with? The one who’s been working on a really titanic novel for four years that he never quite finishes, and can’t seem to hold down a long-term job? His dating prospects start heading rapidly downhill by his thirtieth birthday. By his late thirties, his studio apartment is getting very lonely at night. If he does get married to a woman more successful than he is, it’s likely that their relationship will be controlling, resentful, and involve enduring quite a lot of contempt from her friends and family.

Shorter Megan: Suck it up and marry down, ladies! A controlling, resentful and contempt-filled marriage with a loser is better than being single!

But here’s where we come to the really fun part of Megan’s original post: her prescription for What’s Wrong With Poor People:

There is a growing male/female education and income disparity. But it is occurring several rungs down the SES ladder from the precious princesses in the story, clipping off price tags and hiding shopping bags lest He realize that she shops at Prada. This problem is afflicting mostly poor women, particularly black and latino women, who have seen their earnings prospects improve dramatically relative to those of the men in their communities. For a paper as liberal as the New York Times to take their plight–which is real, and troubling–and turn it into an exposition on how hard it is to be a female corporate lawyer, is really pretty embarassing.

Well, yes, something’s embarrassing.

Could it be Megan’s blithe and breezy assessment that income disparity among poor women and men is somehow tragic? Could it be her assumption that if poor women gain, poor men lose? Could it be the idea that, after having mocked the concern over women making more money than men in her own socioeconomic and racial strata and dismissed women who worry about such things as Prada-hiding princesses, that she can wail and moan and castigate the New York Times for not calling attention to the dire, desperate problem of low-income women whose incomes are marginally higher than those of the men in their communities? Could it be that she apparently buys into the idea that marriage is a cure for poverty, and that all those poor women might not be poor anymore if they could just find someone to marry them, but how can they do that when they earn more money than their men?

Could be. I love what Roy had to say about this paragraph in the context of the two linked McArdle posts:

In this demimonde, women suffer from the “problem” of improved earning power, while in the surface world we have companionless loser males with their Soup for One dinners and unfinished novels, clinging forlornly to precious memories of Tuvalu. It seems win-win, or lose-lose, depending on your perspective.

For all its confusion, this analysis clearly posits marriage as the ultimate prize. I wonder if the many citizens who fall in and out of marriages, and in and out of economic stability, see it that way. No doubt many of them do — which is why they keep trying — but some may have determined that life’s a bit messier than that. If the prospect of penury and an unattended deathbed disturbs them, so too might the prospect of a job they despise and a “controlling, resentful” relationship. One of the glories of a free society is that we may pick and choose our regrets. In econometric circles, where marriage, income per capita, and procreation are exalted data-points, this does not signify. But if you have found some happiness in this world despite your lack of resemblance to the ideal, you may know what I’m talking about.

McArdle, BTW, is an Objectivist and an economics nerd. Which explains a lot about why nearly every one of her posts involves some kind of CBA and a lot of huffing about people who aren’t fitting neatly into her model.

H/T: Lauren.


11 thoughts on One woman’s whinefest is another woman’s tragedy

  1. I often disagree with McArdle, but I have to say in this particular case, I had a different interpretation of what she had to say than you did, zuzu.

    I don’t think McArdle was saying “suck it up ladies” at all. The way I see it, she was pointing out that by the time people get into their 30s, the notion of success (often, but not limited to, financial) becomes more important, especially in determining if a man is a desireable mate (which dovetails quite nicely with the recent examination of the “listless lads”). In other words, the problem isn’t women in their 30s who make “too much”, since they’re in a strong position to find the mates they want because what men want from them in terms of success is not a whole lot; rather, it’s men who don’t measure up to societal expectations of success in spite of shifting gender roles.

    Now, that whole framework can certainly be disputed or argued; certainly McArdle is oversimplifying things. It’s just that I’m not (yet) convinced of your interpretation of what McArdle was saying.

  2. “By the time we hit the age when we’re dealing with the work world and the dating world at the same time, we’ve got decades of cultural conditioning under our belts telling us that this is what we’re supposed to expect, that this is what’s right, what’s The Order of Things.”
    I have to ask, is that a Deep Space 9 reference?

  3. Tuvalu guy is a cautionary tale – “you know that exciting, artistic guy who doesn’t make much that you and everyone you know wants to date? He turns into a pathetic, lonely guy who doesn’t make much.” The implication is that the successful women should either accept that their artist guys will be financial drags, or look more closely at the boring guys who are making money. The bit about finding a lower paying job is a snark, not advice.

    “Income disparity” among the poor is ‘tragic’, in that black men are simply not ‘there’ for college educated black women. If UMC whites are having to choose between interesting losers and boring rich guys, LMC black women are having to deal with the high percentage of their target cohort which has not gone to institutions for higher learning, instead going to correctional institutions. The college educated black men just aren’t out there in numbers. I don’t think there is anything controversial about the idea that the problems of rich whites of either gender are insignificant next to the problems of middle class and poor minorities, of either gender.

    This whole conversation, btw, is predicated on the idea that the single women in question want to ‘settle down’ and get married. If that isn’t your goal, neither the NYT article, nor MM’s posts about them, have anything to do with you. In context of a person who wants a heterosexual partner, everything MM says basically assumes a feminist worldview – instead of saying to successful women ‘Marry a rich guy and let him take care of view’, she’s saying ‘you still think you can marry a guy and let him take care of you? Snap out of it!’ I don’t think “Marriage is the road to happiness” is her point – sfaik, she isn’t, and hasn’t been. Her point is more like “If you want marriage, be practical when thinking about what you want in a husband. Romantic ideals(e.g. exciting artistic types) tend not to survive the encounter with reality.”

    On “Marriage is the route out of poverty”, well, it is a hell of a lot easier to live a decent lifestyle on a given personal income if you have a roommate who also contributes to the household either through ‘holding the fort’ at home, or through contributing additional income, or both, and you can have a much more stable, poverty free existence, if that roommate is permanent. “Marriage” here is shorthand for a permanent opposite-gender life partner. For most people, such a person is a spouse. The poverty line is $10,210+$3,480*(P-1) where P is the number of people in the household. Roomie only has to work about 10-12 hours per week at minimum wage to improve your ability to reach that line. One person has to work about 30 hours at $7.00 per hour, or two have to work 40 hours at the same wage. (Each additional person (i.e. kid) adds another 10 hours or $1 per hour to the paid work needs.)

  4. I don’t think this story is silly AT ALL. I don’t get either Megan’s or Zuzu’s take on it. If a couple is conflicted about splitting a dinner check, how are they going to deal with having to pay for college for his two kids from a previous marriage when, given the woman’s higher salary, she is going to be picking up a big chunk of the tab? What about when your boyfriend can’t afford the clothes to wear to your work events? Should you buy a suit for someone you have only been seeing for 3 months? Not only is there a whole Sex in the City episode about this, it’s not a new problem. Anyone else read Dorothy Sayers? The main charater is loaded with family money, and his younger sister marries a cop in 1930’s England. They live down to HIS income and plant all of her income in trust for their kids. That’s how much using her money was stygmatized. Most people aren’t going to want to do that, so EVERYONE has to get happy about the higher earning partner bolstering both parties’ lifestyle. My husband would LOVE to support me, but he’d have to go back into a profession he hated, and NOTHING is worth being married to an unhappy person. At some point, you either accept that everyone contributes as best they can or check your dates’ bank accounts before it gets serious. Even then, keep in mind that someday either spouse may be the lower earning one, so whether you make more or less than your mate now, always remember how you would want to be treated and treat the other person that way (i.e. I’d love for you to get tickets for the game, but if you do I’m not sure we can pay the mortgage NOT I won’t have my paycheck subsidising something as dumb as football – or susbstitute opera for football).

  5. Great post, Zuzu. These kinds of classist articles send me through the roof. Your analysis is so right-on!!!

    Could it be that she apparently buys into the idea that marriage is a cure for poverty, and that all those poor women might not be poor anymore if they could just find someone to marry them, but how can they do that when they earn more money than their men?

    Amen and amen!

    Until women can feel okay marrying someone who earns less–we won’t get anywhere; we are subconsciously still waiting for Prince Charming to ‘save’ us.

  6. The reason that this is a huge problem for women lower down the SES ladder is that the men’s earning power has dropped because they’re unskilled or, too often, in prison. The many women in that community who would like to have children with a stable partner find it much more difficult to find a man who can fill that role, and their earning power is not sufficient to make having a child by themselves, or with a financially non-contributing partner, relatively easy. Thus, the tragedy. Using the statistics on education to imply that high SES women with high-paying professional jobs face some sort of shortage of high SES men to mate with is appalling. The gender balance in high SES schools is roughly even.

    As for the rest, yes, I think it’s whining. Not when guys ditch you because you make too much–that sucks, but it’s also not clear that it’s actually common–certainly, I haven’t heard much about it from the many highly paid corporate lawyers and investment bankers I count among my friends–and frankly, did you want to date a guy that sexist and insecure anyway? But the women later in the article who cannot bear to either go where their dates can afford, or pick up the check? I have no sympathy. If you are clipping the price tags off your clothes in order to hide your shopping tastes from your boyfriend, then you have serious problems either with your self esteem or your relationship that you need to fix.

    Frankly, I’m pretty surprised to find myself criticised in these quarters. The sympathetic treatment of women trying to shoehorn themselves into some outdated model of financial relations strikes me as about as anti-feminist as you can get.

  7. The reason that this is a huge problem for women lower down the SES ladder is that the men’s earning power has dropped because they’re unskilled or, too often, in prison. The many women in that community who would like to have children with a stable partner find it much more difficult to find a man who can fill that role, and their earning power is not sufficient to make having a child by themselves, or with a financially non-contributing partner, relatively easy. Thus, the tragedy.

    You’re mixing up a whole lot of concepts here, Megan. First is that there’s something wrong with a woman making more than a man, no matter where they land on the economic scale. Second, you’re conflating non-earning with earning less. Moreover, women at the bottom of the ladder have always been aware that they’re going to have to make it on their own if it comes to that; they’re not really inclined to believing that they can retire when they get married.

    Using the statistics on education to imply that high SES women with high-paying professional jobs face some sort of shortage of high SES men to mate with is appalling. The gender balance in high SES schools is roughly even.

    Now you’re reading something into the article that wasn’t there. It’s not that there’s a shortage of men who are high on the socioeconomic ladder, it’s that there’s a shortage of men who are comfortable dating women who are higher on the socioeconomic ladder than they are, or who are in jobs or on career trajectories that might outstrip the men’s. And you have a shortage of women who feel like they have permission or support for dating “down.” Which is a cultural problem, not a problem of simple math. There’s a reason you see a lot of male stockbrokers with yoga-instructor wives, and not the other way around.

    Frankly, I’m pretty surprised to find myself criticised in these quarters. The sympathetic treatment of women trying to shoehorn themselves into some outdated model of financial relations strikes me as about as anti-feminist as you can get.

    You don’t read Feministe very often, do you? We’re all about the nuance here.

  8. No, I’m not misreading it. The article actually identifies one minor and not particularly interesting or novel problem–the discomfort that some high earning women, and/or their dates, feel about the fact that they make more than the men they date. But then it tosses in a statistic, about male-female educational/income disparities, to imply that this is a growing problem because these women are now statistically likely to earn more money than the men they date.

    But this is not true of the women that the article exclusively focuses on: high SES women with four-year college and graduate degrees and extremely high-paying jobs. Those women date almost exclusively within their class, and that class contains more high-earning men than women. The problem, to the extent that it is a problem, is a local sorting issue–the guy you date happens to be below the class median, while you happen to be above it–not a function of a general trend by which high SES women now outearn their male peers. They don’t. The actual “trend” is that now that women have more equality in the workplace, some of them earn salaries that are higher than the salaries of some men. This is news?

    If you wanted to write a piece using that statistic, the appropriate thing to do would be to chronicle the lives of the women it actually describes: women from lower SES backgrounds who attended less competitive colleges, earn middle class salaries, and live in the suburbs or the less hip boroughs. It is wildly inappropriate to deploy it as if it were at all relevant to the problems of women who shop at Prada.

  9. But we’re back to the point again: You’re assuming, without explaining why, that women in lower socioeconomic strata making more than their peer men is, ipso fact, something that needs to be addressed or concerned about.

    For all your criticism of the Times for not addressing that issue, you give it short shrift yourself. And I don’t buy that women outearning men is ever a problem, except for the fact that the culture resists such a thing. Now, if you want to talk about a segment of men who are actually losing ground in comparison to men of the same socioeconomic strata at some point in the past, versus just assuming that poor women making more money is bad for them, then you might actually have a post there. But that’s a different problem than the one described in the article.

    Which, you might note, I agreed was silly. But I guess I’m a lot more interested in why a woman might feel driven to hide her financial success from the guys she dates, or clip the labels out of her clothes. And far from your suggestion in comment #7, it’s not at all anti-feminist to treat such a woman sympathetically. She’s as much at the mercy of the patriarchy as anyone.

  10. Well, part of it is that I’m perfectly comfortable telling women (and men) in of my own economic class and background that they should stop feeling sorry for themselves and work harder at not buying into stereotypes; I don’t feel qualified to deliver that message to someone with a different background than mine. Indeed, those women are in some sense victims of the patriarchy, but I’m not sure that this victimhood is best cured by nurturing their problems with long, loving Styles pieces. I think that a healthy dose of impatience with women, and men, who are still nurturing Prince Charming fantasies is probably the fastest way to end this particular scourge.

    However, I think that there may well be a problem when there are massive educational disparities in the dating pool (and at some SES levels, they seem to be quite massive), because education changes you. To the extent that after college you have less in common with people who didn’t go, if the numbers are skewed, your dating pool just shrank dramatically–and so did that of your male high school classmates who didn’t go to college. Obviously, I don’t think that the solution to this problem is women achieving less, but it nonetheless really sucks for the women involved.

    As for outearning males, I don’t think it’s a problem per se; but a large part of the disparity does, in fact, seem to be declining returns to low-skilled male labor, coupled with the impact of prison on future earning power. And indeed, it is a different problem from the one described in the article, which is why I’m indignant that this statistic was paired with that lengthy exposition of the problems of women who buy Prada and date musicians.

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