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Dear Democrats, please let this be true

Can it be true? Can the party really be finally waking up and smelling the coffee and realizing that going after white Southern males is a waste of time and resources?

I’m talking about the white male voter, or at least a certain long-coveted variety thereof. He is variously known as “NASCAR dad” — that shirt-sleeved, straight-talkin’, these-colors-don’t-run fella who votes his cultural values above all else — or “Bubba,” as Steve Jarding and Dave “Mudcat” Saunders affectionately call him in their book, “Foxes in the Henhouse.” Start looking on milk cartons for Bubba because he has vanished, and not a moment too soon: The Democratic obsession with the down-home, blue-collar, white male voter, that heartbreaker who crossed the aisle to the Republicans many decades ago, may finally be coming to a merciful end.

The simplest explanation for Bubba’s absence to date is that none of the 2008 Democratic presidential contenders provides an obvious home for his vote. Despite accusations that Hillary Clinton is prone to dropping her “g’s” when talking to rural or Southern audiences, it’s difficult to imagine the former first lady making overt appeals to a group that regards her with something verging on rabid disgust. Barack Obama? The former Chicago street activist is not easily mistaken for a good ole boy. Ditto for Christopher Dodd, Mike Gravel, Dennis Kucinich and Bill Richardson.

Indeed, the only white male Southerner candidate, John Edwards, spends his time talking up issues that have very little to do with NASCAR and who-do-you-want-to-have-a-beer-with kinds of stupidity that gave us George Bush for eight years and a DLC that actually listens to a grown man who calls himself “Mudcat” and says hateful shit like this:

I am certain I will get personally attacked for this next statement, but in all honesty, I don’t care what the “Metropolitan Wing” of my party thinks. I don’t like them. The damage the pseudo-intellectuals have done to my party by abandoning tolerance, combined with their erroneous stereotyping of my people and culture, is something that brings out my incivility. In his column, Joe said, “…the smart stuff is being drowned out by a fierce, bullying, often witless tone of intolerance that has overtaken the left-wing sector of the blogosphere.” Amen. I must add that this same intellectual arrogance and intolerance overtook the party years ago, and for that very reason, my people in rural America left the tent.

And that’s by way of introduction during his guest blogging stint at Swampland. Yes, Mudcat, the “Metropolitan Opera Wing” of the party has taken over. That’s why all of the Democratic presidents from LBJ onward have been Southerners. Oh, if only we’d listened in 2004 and didn’t nominate a Northeasterner — good God, a Bostonian! — as the party’s candidate, all those white Southern men who’ve just been waiting for a good reason to pull the lever for a Democrat would have jumped party lines and swung the election our way! Instead, we had to settle for a candidate who came within one state of winning the election and got more votes than anyone ever did in a Presidential election except for George Bush in the same election, and he didn’t miss by that much.

If you can’t tell, I’m a little cheesed off at the idea that Only A Southern Man Can Win, or by the persistent idea that Kerry was a terrible candidate. He wasn’t. He came closer to unseating a sitting president during wartime than anyone else ever has, as far as I know. He got more votes than Al Gore did, and Al Gore won the popular vote. He just got beaten by a couple of percentage points by the incumbent, during wartime, after being smeared relentlessly by Karl Rove and his ratfucking operation, despite Tommy Thompson and his color-coded fearmongering, and with Nader siphoning off support.

But, Jesus, all you kept hearing right after the election, from the likes of “Mudcat,” was how elitist and urban-effete the party was, and how it had to reach out to “Southerners.” How the Coastal Elites looked down on “Southerners,” and how that was going to kill the party’s chances (such intolerance of intolerance, however, only extended so far: the people complaining about how the Northeastern Liberal Sissies looked funny at Southern Culture were quite content to bash urbanites, Northerners and Californians even as they bewailed the incivility of it all).

Except, that “Southerners” thing? Totally meant white men from the rural Deep South. And as we know, they’re not the only people living in the South:

But the underlying reason may be demographics. In 1952, according to calculations performed by Emory University political scientist Alan Abramowitz for Salon, white males were nearly half the American electorate. Thanks to the recent growth in the Latino population, however, the white male share is now dropping about a percentage point a year, accelerating a decline that began with the increased enfranchisement of African-Americans in the civil rights era. In next year’s election, white males may account for fewer than one out of three voters. Bubba is no longer a kingmaker.

Now, I’m all for making common cause with the rural Southern voter on issues that matter to everyone in the party. What I’m not down with is “Mudcat’s” strategy of kissing their asses by kowtowing to their precious Southern culture while throwing all the other constituencies that make up the Democratic voting base under the bus. I get realllllly nervous when I start hearing centrist types talking about how it might be better strategically to downplay issues of racial equality, of reproductive justice, of queer rights, to allow Roe to be overturned, all the better to attract those elusive Southern men and their extra-special votes.

Well, guess what? They’re voting Republican anyway. So why bother?

Tom Schaller‘s been arguing for quite some time that the Democrats can win without the South, and that Democratic consultants who say otherwise (and in particular, “Mudcat” hisself) are full of it:

What’s neither amusing nor ironic, but rather sad, is the state of political advice when it comes to the Democrats’ problems in the South. Saunders’ consultancy career, after all, depends on solving the following riddle: How is it that working-class whites — especially those in the rural parts of the South who sit side by side with similarly situated working-class southern blacks at high school sporting events on Friday nights, shop at the same businesses on Saturday afternoon, attend similar (if different denominational) Christian churches on Sunday morning, and send their kids to the same public schools the following Monday — troop to the ballot box on the first Tuesday every other November vote and pull the lever for the Republicans while their black neighbors are voting overwhelmingly Democratic? The answer is complex but, of course, is rooted in race.

When I asked Saunders if he could think of any other two sets of Americans who are otherwise so similarly situated yet vote so differently, he had no answer. Probed for a solution to this stultifying racial bifurcation, he mumbled something about how every white southern guy has at least “one black friend.” The soporific Trippi — himself freshly demoted by former NAACP President Kweisi Mfume, whose U.S. Senate campaign in Maryland had been listing badly in 2005 before Trippi was replaced by a new team — had little to add. Apparently, this is what now passes for serious analysis about southern politics from high-priced political consultants, which is why I flew home feeling a strange sympathy for the man who heckled me, even if he was screaming at the wrong panelist.

The problem with listening to people like Mudcat is that they’d have you believe that the Southern Man Vote is yours for the taking, if you just act enough like a Republican. Which completely ignores the fact that most people inclined to vote Republican, when faced with the choice between a faux-Republican and the real thing, are more than likely going to pick the real thing.

So why look there for votes? Especially when you have black and Hispanic voters in the South who will listen to your message of opportunity and justice and not require you to whistle Dixie and affect a Southern accent to get their vote. You have single women staying home from the polls, you have many, many groups who feel that their voices are not represented and don’t bother to vote.

I don’t know, could be that they couldn’t hear anything over all the macho posturing and YEE-HAWs emanating from the Democrats as they tried so desperately to get Joe Six-Pack to love them best.

I know some people get really, truly offended when you start talking about writing off the South in Presidential elections for some years to come. What about the liberals? they ask. Well, folks, the numbers just aren’t there right now, given the Electoral College and its ugly realities. But that doesn’t mean that the party shouldn’t promote the issues that matter to you — because they’re the issues that matter to Democrats anywhere. And, in the meantime, work on getting Democrats elected to local and state offices (you know, kind of like the Republicans have been doing since Goldwater’s time) and building up the local organizations.

Besides, nobody bothers to campaign very hard in New York or California, either. Maybe because the Republicans have written them off.

UPDATE: Gah! You really have to check out the Salon letters to this one. Here’s a prize example:

One must wonder how anyone can write an article about the massive changes in demography without taking a moment to reflect. Schaller should find his topic “sobering” for it documents major change in what has been the most successful democracy in the history of the world. There is no proof that Hispanics or Blacks are capable of building a nation that rivals those built by Europeans or Asians. How anyone can write an article, which more or less, praises the loss of the white male vote is beyond me. Who will do the work of government and society into the future? Asians may do a great job, but there are not enough Asians to fill in the blanks.

People should pause. Maybe losing the white vote indicates a change in the country that will prove just as bad for blacks and hispanics as for white males? Maybe a society where blacks and hispanics dominate demographically will prove to be less kind to them than a society with a dominant white population? To date, there is no evidence that blacks and hispanics (as a groups) will magically improve in matters of civilization as soon as white males are excommunicated from the USA. However, there is lots of proof that diversity will increase white pride and white hatred towards others, and that is something everyone should fear.


92 thoughts on Dear Democrats, please let this be true

  1. The first thing the Democratic Party can do is stop using demeaning little phrases like NASCAR dads, soccer moms and security moms. Unmarried women are the largest non-voting bloc.

    Just call them “unmarried women,” please.

    The first thing y’all can do is not talk down to them/us.

  2. The single-women thing is one of the most frustrating, because it seems like everyone spends so much time on the macho issues and the security and anti-terror stuff, and then suddenly discovers around October that single women are a huge untapped non-voting bloc.

    And yet all that ever happens with that is that articles start appearing chiding single women for not voting.

    Well, duh!

  3. Women’s Voices Women Vote research states two things get unmarried women — the largest non-voting bloc — to vote.

    1) fliers that connect to them personally
    2) when they register, they like learning about the process of registration and voting. Appealing to their sense they are doing something good if they vote.

    I find 2) very true when I registered 1,200 mostly poor, student, minority and Democratic voters in 2004. The most enthusiastic were young black women. Well, mostly because most people hated Bush. Overall, women want to know about the registration and voting process and the candidates’ stands on issues. What unmarried women want is honesty and transparency in the whole process. And fliers that convey the sense the candidate cares about their issues (health care, etc.) and their lives work too.

  4. I also believe the Democratic Party and candidates’ campaigns have not tried hard enough to get this bloc to register and vote. Meaning the entire party including all the men have to get on board and seriously target this bloc without demeaning terms like “soccer moms,” “security moms”, “This is the year of The Woman,” single women called to “swing the vote.”

    Fuck that. What can the Democratic Party do for women? Why isn’t saving Roe ever at the top of the Democratic agenda?

    The UN says education of girls and women is the key to women’s equality in the world. Pro-lifers know this and this is the motivation behind the pro-life movement.

    Girls and women can’t finish high school or college if they get pregnant. Pro-lifers know that too.

  5. Yes, yes, yes.

    But if you’re courting the evangelical vote, you won’t full-throatedly support a woman’s right to choose. This is where the centrism really gets in the way of winning elections.

    Stake out a clear position and give people an alternative, not just more of the same.

  6. The whining cultural and, I would add, religious narcissism of (some) southern white men is not why the Democratic Party lost them, at least not directly. They could hold culturally and religiously conservative views and oppose the Democratic Party without being whiners. But whiners many of them are, whining for the “good old days” when black people knew “their place” and this was a “white man’s country,” reflecting the sentiments expressed by beloved son of the South Hank Williams, Jr: “If the South would’ve won we’d a had it made … We might even be better off.

    As for me, I would rather suffer in the political minority than make common cause with the voters most desperate to roll back the clocks to 1960, or for that matter to 1860. I will make peace with them and their culture when they abandon as heroes violent, racist insurrectionists (Lee, Davis, Forrest) and cease all funding of radical Christian clerics (Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson), some of whom often call down terrorism from the Heavens against various U.S. cities and towns for their occasional failure to be sufficiently theocratic and nasty in their civic polities. But I guess we northerners are the problem, right?

  7. Screw the southern white male. All he cares about is “god, gays and guns”. A party that will represent him can’t, by definition, represent me.

    The southern white male will continue to vote against his own best interests if “god, gays and guns” is the party platform. Why should we care about someone so ignorant?

    Address the real issues – stagnant wages, healthcare as a profit making business (which prices it out of reach for most people), a government that favors corporations over people (see healthcare above). Let’s go old school and address usury (99% interest for payroll loans!?! didn’t that used to be called loan sharking and illegal?). Get rid of no child left behind, put recess back in schools, find a way to support the artist class (healthcare anyone?), etc.

    You might even sway a few southern white males with a platform of real issues. But if not? Who cares?

  8. But if you’re courting the evangelical vote, you won’t full-throatedly support a woman’s right to choose. This is where the centrism really gets in the way of winning elections.

    That’s so true. There are evangelical Democrats.

    Play to the base. That’s something we never tried.

  9. However, there is lots of proof that diversity will increase white pride and white hatred towards others, and that is something everyone should fear.

    What the hell. It’s OUR fault they’re assholes?!

  10. I live in probably the reddest district in my state. It’s going to be next to impossible for a Democrat to win here until redistricting. Now, there are still a lot of liberals in the district, but guess what? If the state party wants to concentrate its efforts wisely, I’d suggest they look at a district like the third, or the first, places that are close and have even more liberals than here.

    I’m all for listening to people who say we need to look, as a party, to the Mountain West for voters. But the South is no-go territory for the foreseeable future, just as New England is not going to yield many GOP gains in the near term. We should maintain a presence there, of course — support the state parties, and what few Democrats are elected there, and build for the future, because in a generation or two, the country could flip again.

    But arguing the Democrats could win easily if only they swept the south is like arguing Republicans could win easily if only they swept California, Illinois, and New York. Yes, that’s true — but if the Democrats take Texas, it’s because we’ve long since taken Ohio and Florida and every tossup state in the book. The South is GOP territory. Get used to it.

  11. Incidentally, the other thing the Democrats must get over, as noted above, is the hesitation to adopt strong positions on “women’s issues” (like regular issues, only…pink or something.) Guess what? We’re a party of women. Women make up the majority of the Democratic party’s base. And that’s a feature, not a bug, folks. Actually embracing that fact would be the single smartest thing the Dems could do, which is why I think we all can rest assured that they won’t.

  12. I really agree with your point here, but I don’t understand how you can make this argument, and defend Kerry 2004 simultaneously. Kerry’s whole campaign was directed toward attracting Bubba. In the primaries, it was argued that only his biography (with the truly brave part of it omitted) would be able to attract the votes of those who initially voted for the war.

    During the election, he avoided differentiating from Bush on the war, and while not equivocating on whether Roe should be overturned, said a bunch of weasely crap about how he was personally opposed to it. In the end, how many votes for Kerry were actually anti-bush votes? And comparing raw numbers of votes across generations is pretty unfair, as the voting population of the country has nearly doubled since 1960.

  13. I don’t see how appealing to hispanics and blacks leads to an hispanic and/or black majority in this country, or these people leading or building. Also, racist fucks who like to post at Salon should really brush up on their central American history. Mayans and other Central and South American peoples who still exist today built incredible societies and discovered the zero; something that can’t be said for European or Asian societies (with the exception of India).

    Changing your campain strategy to take advantage of the potential of oft ignord demograpics is nt equivalent, in any way, to changing the ethnic makeup of the population. Giving a voice to single women and ethnic minorities is not the same as encouraging them to reproduce (populations will grow in their own way). Also, the insinuation that our whole country would fall apart if hispanics and blacks became politically important is just… ugh!

    I want to think it’s a troll, but it just sounds a little too subtle and earnest. UGH!

    I caught my mom and aunt complaining right outside my old bedroom door during a party at my parent’s house about going to a church with a gay minister. “Makes you wonder what else he’s twisting from the bible!”

    Right after that, my mom came in and found me glaring her down. “I bet it’s hard enough to live life constantly wondering whether the God you’ve devoted your life to loves you at all.” I said. I should have pointed out that we were talking about Christian churches, which shouldn’t be fixating on old testament intolerance anyway.

  14. Just call them “unmarried women,” please.

    The first thing y’all can do is not talk down to them/us.

    Or can we maybe just call them “women,” as distinct from “married women”? Defining women by their marital status is irritating but I can see how it’s necessary in identifying voting blocks; however, it makes more sense to me to note the marital status of the women who have made the choice to attain that status.

    This could probably be its own post, but that’s just a personal pet peeve of mine (and not toward you, Donna — toward whoever came up with it in the first place).

  15. The question should be are the democrats a waste of time and resources?

    Last I checked there are now 30,000 more troops in Iraq after electing the “anti-war” democrats to the majority of Congress. If a democrat is elected president, they will not pull out the troops until the most important energy region of the world is secure. It really is about oil, it really is a capitalist war and Alan Greenspan said so yesterday.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article2461214.ec

  16. This could probably be its own post

    Yes. That would be a good one. I also hate the term “single mother” for the same reason. But I still use it to describe myself, because I’ve never come up with a better one. But it seems to somehow imply that my household is short one person, and I hate that. (I also hate the term “broken home”–I tell people who say that to me that my home isn’t broken, its fixed. 🙂

    Anyhow, somehow a lot of terms that categorize women seem to have a negative slant to them, and that doesn’t help getting politicians to give us our due importance.

  17. Well, just my perspective as someone who lives in a state that is “red” every four years when it comes to the presidency, but a strange shade of violet when it looks like the House of Representatives is up for grabs…

    I’m going to disagree with Jeff Fecke and point out that 2006 showed that when Democrats fight district by district, they can win elections, even over incumbent advantage. And by refusing to let the Republicans take entire districts for granted, the Democrats can force them into difficult choices on where to spend money. IMO the Democrats failed in not putting up even token resistance to Senator Lugar.

    This is something that I’ve been harping on since 2000, the red/blue divide is a myth, a self-fulfilling prophesy that is not matched by the demographics. Many of the states taken for granted as “red” went for Clinton in 92 and 96. And it certainly does not describe the politics on the ground county by count.

    There are so many reasons why we shouldn’t give into regionalism, or the kind of bigotry brought to this discussion by eli bishop. First of all, I feel that a lot of the anti-southern regionalism serves as a bit of a scapegoat for dealing with the realities of racism. Opponents of racial injustice need to look at the structure of their own cities even more than the Jenna Six.

    Second, I think this regionalism ignores the existence of liberal and leftist activism that currently exists on the ground, and dismisses it as irrelevant.

    Third, state and local offices are critically important because these are the offices that have a ton of influence in how things actually work. We can’t treat any political office as irrelevant or a write-off.

  18. Well said, CBrachyrhynchos. It’s one thing to expend too many resources on trying to win over the voters who oppose you the most; it’s quite another to concede entire regions of the nation, particularly those that are on the whole gaining population.

    Folks here might want to have a look at the Facing South blog.

  19. Thanks, CBrachy. As a pinko commie socialist woman in the south, I find the whole “we don’t need the south” idea irritating.

    OK, we don’t need “Bubbas,” or to act like Republicans. But there are a lot – surprisingly many, to northern elitists like eli – of progressive, populist people here. If the party played to them (us, really), they would be a lot more successful and wouldn’t alienate the northern voters, either.

    It’s the “fuck the south” types who evoke a knee-jerk “well, fuck the metropolitan elitists!” response. Which is, of course, counterproductive on all levels.

  20. I really agree with your point here, but I don’t understand how you can make this argument, and defend Kerry 2004 simultaneously. Kerry’s whole campaign was directed toward attracting Bubba.

    Because despite all that, despite being a New Englander chasing the Bubba vote and getting mocked for it, Kerry almost won. Imagine how he would have done if the Bubba-pushers in the consultant class hadn’t had such a grip on the Dems due to the security theme.

    There are so many reasons why we shouldn’t give into regionalism, or the kind of bigotry brought to this discussion by eli bishop. First of all, I feel that a lot of the anti-southern regionalism serves as a bit of a scapegoat for dealing with the realities of racism. Opponents of racial injustice need to look at the structure of their own cities even more than the Jenna Six.

    Second, I think this regionalism ignores the existence of liberal and leftist activism that currently exists on the ground, and dismisses it as irrelevant.

    Third, state and local offices are critically important because these are the offices that have a ton of influence in how things actually work. We can’t treat any political office as irrelevant or a write-off.

    I find it interesting that the claims of “anti-South regionalism” always seem to ignore that rural Southern white males do not a region make.

    In any event, while it is vitally important to contest every seat in every district, and acknowledge the importance of liberals everywhere, we have to remember that the Electoral College is an entirely different beast. The regionalism is a feature, not a bug.

    Facing up to the reality that there states in play and there are states not in play in Presidential elections is not regionalism, or dismissing the votes of Southern liberals as irrelevant. It’s just practical, because you can’t win. The Deep South is not in play, but neither is New England. But you don’t see the Republicans wringing their hands about ignoring New England Republican votes.

    Because they *haven’t* ignored local and state offices. And they were willing to wait 30 years for a payoff.

  21. I know some people get really, truly offended when you start talking about writing off the South in Presidential elections for some years to come. What about the liberals? they ask. Well, folks, the numbers just aren’t there right now, given the Electoral College and its ugly realities.

    The bottom line is that I just don’t buy this. Not after 1996, and not after 2006 when key Senate races came down to the wire.

    But that doesn’t mean that the party shouldn’t promote the issues that matter to you — because they’re the issues that matter to Democrats anywhere. And, in the meantime, work on getting Democrats elected to local and state offices (you know, kind of like the Republicans have been doing since Goldwater’s time) and building up the local organizations.

    Well, this assumes that one can safely sandbox organizing for local and state offices away from organizing for presidential campaigns. Unfortunately when people argue for “writing off the South” (or red states in general) at best they are advocating throwing the baby out with the bathwater, the local with the electoral. At worst they are advocating open class warfare in which the rural poor are punished for the electoral habits of suburban republicans.

    Personally, I’d like to see the EC go the way of the dodo because in a direct vote system, my vote in Indiana would be just as valuable as one vote in Ohio. As it is, when parties write off states in presidential elections, I’m almost certain that local and state politics suffer as well.

  22. Facing up to the reality that there states in play and there are states not in play in Presidential elections is not regionalism, or dismissing the votes of Southern liberals as irrelevant. It’s just practical, because you can’t win. The Deep South is not in play, but neither is New England. But you don’t see the Republicans wringing their hands about ignoring New England Republican votes.

    I understand your argument here, and to a point, I agree with you. I would say, though, that the comparison between New England and the South (which we can define as say, the states of the old Confederacy) isn’t entirely symmetrical. New England is not growing. The South is.

    On top of that, there’s still the question of determining when an out-of-play state, especially in fertile electoral ground, becomes in play. How is that determined if a party’s strategy is to concede it?

  23. @zuzu: I find it interesting that the claims of “anti-South regionalism” always seem to ignore that rural Southern white males do not a region make.

    But the entire argument for writing off states is grounded on the idea that the South=Southern white males. That certainly is the assumption behind Jeff’s and eli’s messages.

    @zuzu: Facing up to the reality that there states in play and there are states not in play in Presidential elections is not regionalism, or dismissing the votes of Southern liberals as irrelevant. It’s just practical, because you can’t win. The Deep South is not in play, but neither is New England. But you don’t see the Republicans wringing their hands about ignoring New England Republican votes.

    The deep south was most certainly “in play” for Clinton, Florida was pivotal in 2000, and VA and TN were “in play” for 1996 Senate race.

    And yes, this strategy does treat the votes, money and activism of “red-state liberals” as irrelevant. Or worse, you are demanding that critical time and energy be pulled away from organizing in their home state every year, and invested in the two or three “swing states” identified by 10th-hour polls.

  24. Or to be blunt, how is investing in liberal organization, activism, and candidates in Southern States equivalent to “writing them off?”

  25. Florida isn’t the deep south, or even the south.

    Florida is mostly new yorkers, anti castro cubans, and old people.

  26. Onymous: Which raises the big question of what “south” are we talking about? Are we just worried about chasing down a mythological beast?

  27. To date, there is no evidence that blacks and hispanics (as a groups) will magically improve in matters of civilization as soon as white males are excommunicated from the USA.

    Took the words right out of my mouth—black people and hispanics are simply not built to be civilized. That’s why I keep a few as slaves—it’s for their own good. And for my protection from my looming excommunication. What a fine, well-reasoned rebuttal.

    -deargodhowdopeoplestillthinkthisway

  28. And again, to be blunt, perhaps the reason why we are truely offended when someone advocates “writing off red/southern states” is because so far that phrase has been exclusively used in such a way as to ignore activism efforts and voter diversity in those states.

  29. I understand your argument here, and to a point, I agree with you. I would say, though, that the comparison between New England and the South (which we can define as say, the states of the old Confederacy) isn’t entirely symmetrical. New England is not growing. The South is.

    Which is why a two-tier strategy is important. Build the local party organizations, invest a lot of time and energy on the issues important to the people who are part of the growth of the South (which would be immigrants, Hispanics, black folks and transplanted Northerners). But where the votes to take a state just aren’t there, don’t spend a lot of time and energy chasing the electoral votes.

    I realize it sucks to think that your state is being “written off” — and do you know why I know that? Because I live in New York! Nobody comes here during the general election except to fundraise and stand on the ruins (Oh, 2004 RNC, how I hate you and your cynical exploitation of a city you despise). NOBODY. Not even the Democrats.

    And at least NYC gets the fundraising visits — I don’t think Albany, Rochester and Buffalo get ANYTHING once the primaries are over. Because everyone knows, both Republican and Democrat, that doing a lot of campaigning in New York is a waste of time and resources, so they focus all their attention on the battleground states.

    And I bet you that the GOP doesn’t do a whole lot of campaigning in the Deep South, either, except for GOTV efforts.

    And again, to be blunt, perhaps the reason why we are truely offended when someone advocates “writing off red/southern states” is because so far that phrase has been exclusively used in such a way as to ignore activism efforts and voter diversity in those states.

    Or, it’s been used as a reaction to people like Mudcat Saunders, who wave the Stars and Bars and keep telling the candidates that they have to pursue the kind of voter whose interests are antithetical to the diverse base of the Democratic party.

  30. Onymous: Which raises the big question of what “south” are we talking about? Are we just worried about chasing down a mythological beast?

    Well 2 things
    1. Florida knows it’s not the south and it’s generally lumped in with the “swing states” psuedo-region than the south.
    2. For the most part yes we are chasing after a mythical beast.

    I mean you can sort of get a sense of the south by the states that THINK they’re part of the south (most Floridians don’t). However you keep running into a no true scotsman situation every time you try and ask a self identified southerner which other states are “the south.”

    which of course gets back to the problem that when people say they’re courting the south what they mean is they’re courting conservative rural white males.
    That crwmen are only seen as a demographic worth courting in the south is interesting (annoying?). Everywhere else we court “farmers” or “blue collar workers” or whatever, we aren’t so much marketing to the people as to the profession or the economic group. Only in “the south” do we court “hicks.”
    (the sweeping generalizations above are not necessarily indicative of the author’s beliefs but are used to make a point)

  31. @zuzu: Which is why a two-tier strategy is important. Build the local party organizations, invest a lot of time and energy on the issues important to the people who are part of the growth of the South (which would be immigrants, Hispanics, black folks and transplanted Northerners). But where the votes to take a state just aren’t there, don’t spend a lot of time and energy chasing the electoral votes.

    I don’t think that phrase “write off” means what you think it means. It certainly does not mean what you just said in this paragraph.

    And a part of me is scratching my head here. How has the Republican party historically chased electoral votes? By investing in local organizations. The local organizations were the ones that could deliver the calling lists, the manpower to staff the phone banks, and the votes on election day.

    How did the Democrats chase senate votes last year? By investing in local organizations.

    So I’m wondering, how else are you going to chase electoral votes? Kill a chicken and wave it in the air?

    I don’t think that phrase “write off” means what you think it means. “Write off the south” = “Invest in local organizations and politics in the south.” I’ll have to remember this one the next time I’m facing a runaway AI and need a paradox in a jiffy.

  32. Florida isn’t the deep south, or even the south.

    Northern Florida is Southern, and southern Florida is Caribbean; the divide lies somewhere between Tampa and Miami. Little of even the Southern part of Florida is really Deep South, though; the coastal regions of the South have always been a bit different.

  33. Which is why a two-tier strategy is important. Build the local party organizations, invest a lot of time and energy on the issues important to the people who are part of the growth of the South (which would be immigrants, Hispanics, black folks and transplanted Northerners). But where the votes to take a state just aren’t there, don’t spend a lot of time and energy chasing the electoral votes.

    I realize it sucks to think that your state is being “written off” — and do you know why I know that? Because I live in New York! Nobody comes here during the general election except to fundraise and stand on the ruins (Oh, 2004 RNC, how I hate you and your cynical exploitation of a city you despise). NOBODY. Not even the Democrats.

    I certainly agree that a strategy aimed toward building local and state party organizations is a very good idea, precisely for the reason that the populations migrating into the South are a pretty diverse lot that would add a lot of strength to efforts for liberal/progressive change.

    And yes, it’s true that one has to make choices that maximize return from the expenditure of limited resources. I think what you say here is significant: make the campaign strategy more about issues rather than targeted – and often illusory – voter groups. Though you didn’t make this argument, zuzu, I think what concerns some of us is the temptation to indulge in reflexive “fuck the South” sentiment, even if that temptation is rooted in understandable political frustration.

    Voters can be an interesting lot. A good friend of mine is an Alabama born-and-raised white guy. Yet he’s as liberal as any of us here are on almost anything and more educated on racial issues than most northern liberals I know.

    Then there’s folks like my (deceased) grandfather. I loved him dearly, but I have to be honest: he was openly racist. Yet he voted straight-ticket Democratic his entire adult life, even after the Democrats became reformist on racial issues. Why? Because he thought they still paid attention to issues he thought important.

    We’re not southerners, by the way, but you get the idea.

  34. Or, it’s been used as a reaction to people like Mudcat Saunders, who wave the Stars and Bars and keep telling the candidates that they have to pursue the kind of voter whose interests are antithetical to the diverse base of the Democratic party.

    I was one of the folks who, when I read what Saunders said, dropped him a line to tell him (in different terms) that he was full of shit. Though I don’t think he’s a “Stars and Bars” type deep down, he’s certainly misjudged the direction of the Democratic Party.

    But we shouldn’t let our reactions to the words of someone like Saunders deflect our attention to progressive efforts in the South, particularly when such efforts explictly acknowledge and include the diverse base of the party. That’s cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face.

  35. I go to a huge flea market on the edge of town, where I now see a regular sight that I never saw ten years ago: I see little kids running around, named Pedro and Maria, chattering in Spanish, and then they come out with “hey yall! We’re fixin to leave!” and sing along with Travis Tritt songs.

    In short, at this flea market, I see the children of Bubba and Maria. (Or if you please, I see the children of Jolene and Pedro.) They have Atlanta Braves caps on, and speak Spanish as well as southern-accented English and know all the video games and country-western songs. They sing in one language and take your order in another. It’s an amazing thing.

    But really, the population of the south is shifting and intermarrying at a mercurial rate. I’ve never seen anything like it in all my life. And I mean everyone is here–the apartment complex next to mine is affectionately known as Shanghai South.

    So far, neither party has captured the passions of this newest, youngest group of potential multicultural voters. They are there for the taking. The GOP is still doing old-school bubba-NASCAR courting of white-male votes, while the Dems are still doing the special interest thing, going to union halls and black churches. Neither group is speaking to “the new south”–these new melting-pot kids just coming of age; their families and their demographic.

    If any candidate successfully galvanizes them, and shakes the south out of its political ennui, they could easily win. The last (southern) candidate who did that, won twice.

    Just my two cents.

  36. I can’t really speak for all conservative white males, but I can speak for myself. The Democratic party lost my vote not because they didn’t court me, but because they didn’t even bother to engage in a conversation. Its the same exact reason the Republicans lost my vote. Both parties have taken to defining themselves largely in opposition to one another, and then turning those views into unquestionable orthodoxy. There isn’t a discussion in the Democratic party, individual candidates don’t have their own views, they just have interpretations of the party line.

    Also, lets talk about this willful disenfranchisement, this complete spite for whole blocks of voters. Do you get pissed off when the Republicans just write off the black or brown vote because they think they have enough good ol’ boys to win the election? I sure as hell do. Why, then, is it OK for the Democrats to not even bother to try to understand whole groups of voters? More to the point, we all know that black and hispanic voters are hardly monolithic, so why is it OK pretend that white males are?

    Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not whining about losing privilege (honestly, I think it will do the country some good to have a few more voices in the discussion). I’m just saying that it hurts to hear so many people simply discount my voice because of the color of my skin or the gender I claim, especially when it is coming from people who should know better. But hey, maybe I missed a memo and othering is now OK as long as it is traditionally othered groups doing the othering. I’m sure that will go a long way towards breaking down tribalism in our society.

    Finally, on a strictly pragmatic note, I think the Democrats are shooting themselves in the foot by refusing to enter into conversations with people who don’t agree with them on all things. I’m a conservative, I’m a voter, and I’m not really seeing anything that doesn’t scare the living hell out of me in the Republican party right now. I’m an open vote. I’m also an unswervingly pro-choice, pro-marriage equality, pro-gay rights feminist ally. I’m anti-war and pro-civil rights (though perhaps not for all the same reasons as many Democrats). I’m more than willing to vote for a candidate with a healthcare reform plan, even if I’m a bit leery of the concept. The problem is, despite all of those similarities, I’m essentially unwanted in the Democratic party because I own a rifle that looks a little scary, think working people should get to keep a bigger share of their paycheck, and am suspicious of government power.

  37. Finally, on a strictly pragmatic note, I think the Democrats are shooting themselves in the foot by refusing to enter into conversations with people who don’t agree with them on all things.

    see the funny thing is the whole point of the post was that democrats have been spending way too much time entering into conversations with people that don’t agree with them on anything.

    every time we meet some one in the middle, it shifts the middle further away from our core beliefs, and so we shift further and further right.

    also, you’re a libertarian, not a conservative.

  38. Also, lets talk about this willful disenfranchisement, this complete spite for whole blocks of voters. Do you get pissed off when the Republicans just write off the black or brown vote because they think they have enough good ol’ boys to win the election? I sure as hell do. Why, then, is it OK for the Democrats to not even bother to try to understand whole groups of voters? More to the point, we all know that black and hispanic voters are hardly monolithic, so why is it OK pretend that white males are?

    Who’s pretending that white males are monolithic?

    Please read the post again. We’re talking about a certain type of white, rural, Deep Southern male voter with whom the Democratic party has had a deeply unproductive obsession, fueled by anxieties about losing his votes to the GOP. In order to appeal to this voter, they’ve triangulated and tamped down their messages of diversity and equality and justice, lest they offend his tender sensibilities.

    Nobody’s saying that all white men are alike, or all Southerners, or what have you. THAT’S KIND OF THE POINT. This obsession with the “Bubba” of legend has meant that the Party, on a national level, has ignored the issues that make it an appealing party for the very diverse populations who are likely to vote for them. IOW, they’ve elevated this construct of “Bubba” over and above all of the traditional Democratic constituencies, as well as new constituencies that they might see if they weren’t so fixated on catching Bubba’s eye. And at the slightest taunt from the Republicans that the Democrats don’t respect Southerners, are elitists, look down on them, whatever (and frankly, people, I’m disappointed to see so many here buying into that Republican line of bullshit), the Democrats start fluttering and catering even more to the sensibilities of the mythical evangelical, social-conservative white male Southern voter who’s somehow going to reverse all his previous patterns of voting and vote for a party that’s presenting itself as just a little less Republicans than the Republicans, but even more willing to kiss Bubba’s ass.

    And in the meantime, everyone else watches nervously as their issues disappear under the bus. But what are they going to do, vote Republican?

  39. I don’t think that phrase “write off” means what you think it means. “Write off the south” = “Invest in local organizations and politics in the south.” I’ll have to remember this one the next time I’m facing a runaway AI and need a paradox in a jiffy.

    Schaller’s talking about Presidential politics involving the Electoral College. Which is what I’m talking about. And, yes, writing off the South for the time being for purposes of Presidential elections is a perfectly good strategy.

    And so is Howard Dean’s 50-state strategy, because it takes time and effort to build up local organizations.

    The two strategies are not incompatible.

    Go ahead and misread me all you want. It’s clear you’re hearing what you want to hear, and what you’re hearing is that I’m advocating just completely abandoning the entire Deep South.

  40. Though you didn’t make this argument, zuzu, I think what concerns some of us is the temptation to indulge in reflexive “fuck the South” sentiment, even if that temptation is rooted in understandable political frustration.

    I’m guessing that explains some of the defensiveness here.

  41. I’m guessing that explains some of the defensiveness here.

    Probably so. I feel a bit stuck in the middle on the whole regionalism thing. On one hand, I’m one of those coastal-living, latte- and wine-drinking, went-to-school-for-far-too-long liberals, so when Dave Saunders spouts off on the “metropolitan wing” of the Democratic party and I when I hear about the unalloyed virtues of rural, “heartland” America, it rubs me the wrong way.

    At the same time, having grown up in a region of the country that sometimes gets its share of ridicule from the folks who are normally my political allies, I can get defensive about their reaction.

  42. William, if I’m a Democrat, then so are you. I don’t care if people own guns or not – I grew up in Wisconsin where almost everybody has a hunting rifle. And I don’t know any Democrat that wants to excessively tax the middle class, lower class, or small businesses.

  43. What about the Norwegian Bachelor Farmers from the northern Midwest? Nobody ever appeals to that vote. Why do you hate Norwegian Bachelor Farmers? I think that Hillary Clinton should eat lutefisk on TV to show her solidarity with this voter block.

  44. So far, neither party has captured the passions of this newest, youngest group of potential multicultural voters.

    Now this is just personal view point here, but i think you italicized the wrong word there. Dem/Rep aren’t failing to galvanize them because they’re multicultural and they don’t know how to fit that into the traditional minority/special interest group mindset (though thats certainly a part of it) they’re failing because the just don’t care about youth voters.
    I’m not sure why, maybe it’s the assumption that youth voters are only youth voters for a few years. Maybe it’s like Ezra Klien suggested, that the parties don’t care because the other party doesn’t (making a chicken and egg problem). Whatever the reason, politicians pretty much just ignore young people, except to try and scare us with a draft, or legislate what media we can consume.
    Ezra did a nice piece on this years ago that sort of made the rounds again when Clinton called us all lazy last year.
    (of course to make it worse she apologized not to all of us, but just to her daughter)

  45. back in 2000 several of my friends were convinced Al Gore wanted to take their guns away, I never really understood that sentiment, I certainly never got that from from him, of course i was 14 at the time, so I wasn’t overly involved with politics at the time (then bush won and I’ve been following it ever since).

  46. I think the gun issue would need a thread of it’s own because it’ll derail this thread almost completely if it gets too in depth.

    One thing I think Bill Clinton did really well was get the young vote. I remember how he went on MTV and played his sax. He really went after hte young vote… probably more so than anybody before or since.

  47. When were guns last a huge Democratic issue anyway, outside the assault rifle ban?

    Well, given that a candidate who wanted to ban handguns would lose not only the gun lobby but the law-and-order vote (paradoxically…), it doesn’t look like anybody can say no to guns. Heck, Russ Feingold is anti-gun control. Of course, he’s from Wisconsin, where our dear State Legislature tried to pass a bill allowing open season on cats.

  48. And at the slightest taunt from the Republicans that the Democrats don’t respect Southerners, are elitists, look down on them, whatever (and frankly, people, I’m disappointed to see so many here buying into that Republican line of bullshit), the Democrats start fluttering and catering even more to the sensibilities of the mythical evangelical, social-conservative white male Southern voter who’s somehow going to reverse all his previous patterns of voting and vote for a party that’s presenting itself as just a little less Republicans than the Republicans, but even more willing to kiss Bubba’s ass.

    And in the meantime, everyone else watches nervously as their issues disappear under the bus. But what are they going to do, vote Republican?

    ((((Kisses and hugs to zuzu for getting it))))

    Also, Onymous, interesting. Thanks for the links. I wish we could get the young folks involved; few fall for the homophobia-tropes of the GOP. They’ve grown up with Will and Grace.

    I have no idea what it would take to get their attention. sigh.

  49. I have no idea what it would take to get their attention. sigh.

    As a youth voter, neither am I.
    I can guess as to a few things that we’d like but can’t say much for whether or not they’d actually get kids to vote.
    Off the top of my head:
    – Strong stances against censorship (conservative youth isn’t very fond of it either, if my fiernds are anything to judge by)
    – Education reform that reduces the importance of standardized tests
    – Some sort of action against text book manufacturers

    Also while not specifically aimed at young people
    – Ease up on drugs (alcohol included), if not flat out legalizing them
    – Net Neutrality

    Lowering the drinking age to 18 might get their attention too.

    the problem is of course that caring about youth issues isn’t the same thing as getting the youth mobilized.

  50. zuzu: Nobody’s saying that all white men are alike, or all Southerners, or what have you.

    Nobody?

    I think that what you are missing here is that after 2000 and 2004, there was this huge chorus of claimed leftist voices arguing that the Democrats should circle the wagons around their costal enclaves, and actively work to marginalize those who did not choose to live in those enclaves. This included not only the previously linked fuckthesouth.com, but also Tom Tomorrow who explained in a widely republished essay that those outside of urban liberal America had nothing worthwile to contribute to public discourse.

    To ignore the basic fact that for the last 6 years the phrase “write off the south” has clearly been used to advocate marginalizing entire states because of the majority vote in the EC system at all levels of politics is engaging in this discussion with some pretty strong blinders.

  51. This included not only the previously linked fuckthesouth.com, but also Tom Tomorrow who explained in a widely republished essay that those outside of urban liberal America had nothing worthwile to contribute to public discourse.

    We had a similar idea show up in one of our local indie newspapers in the wake of the 2004 elections. The idea was the “urban archipelago”, and the paper’s editors made a similar argument. Granted, it’s only a small paper in one city, and this idea hasn’t been promoted as strongly in recent years, but I found it counterproductive all the same.

    Mind you, I don’t think this attitude actually reflects the views of most liberals or Democrats, but it’s discernable.

  52. Screw the southern white male. All he cares about is “god, gays and guns”.

    yes, because all Southern people act EXACTLY like media stereotypes. please inform me of your demographic information so that i may make similar inferences about you.

  53. I think that what you are missing here is that after 2000 and 2004, there was this huge chorus of claimed leftist voices arguing that the Democrats should circle the wagons around their costal enclaves, and actively work to marginalize those who did not choose to live in those enclaves. This included not only the previously linked fuckthesouth.com, but also Tom Tomorrow who explained in a widely republished essay that those outside of urban liberal America had nothing worthwile to contribute to public discourse.

    Yeah, because venting of frustration immediately after lost elections, after having the message that Southern white male voters were the only ones worth chasing shoved down our throats, and hearing attacks on Massachusetts, the Northeast and elsewhere go unchallenged by the party nominees because god-forbid-the-Southerners-think-we’re-elitist constitutes an adoption of this attitude for all time by the party itself.

    Drop the defensive strawmanning and respond to the post, not the Tom Tomorrows in your head.

  54. it’s impossible to not be defensive and focus on the post when there is so much unmitigated generalized slamming of an entire chunk of the country. of course, like any liberal person, i am disgusted by a lot of what is known as “bubba” or “NASCAR dad” politics. however, whenever someone drags out any anti-south hootenanny, this is what it always devolves into.

    although i recognize this was not the point of the post, this topic is often the only place where the most privileged people on earth (bourgeois, white, coastal urbanites) can attack poor/working class people. it’s not strawmanning if you can pull a quote from one of the posters. i live in the belly of the beast (brooklyn) and i can point to quite a few ueber-privileged people whose politics on this issue can be boiled down to “poor people are stupid. pass the PBR”. it’s not progressive and it’s not cool.

  55. it’s not strawmanning if you can pull a quote from one of the posters.

    Who? Eli Bishop? Just because somebody who seems to be a brand-new commenter posts a link to fuckthesouth.com, it’s a sign that this blog is anti-South?

  56. In any event, Morgan, I thought the South wasn’t a monolith? So why are you pretending that it’s all poor/working class people?

    Really, folks, stop buying into the Republican “coastal elites/hard-working heartlanders” nonsense.

    i live in the belly of the beast (brooklyn) and i can point to quite a few ueber-privileged people whose politics on this issue can be boiled down to “poor people are stupid. pass the PBR”. it’s not progressive and it’s not cool.

    You HAVE to live in Williamsburg, if people are drinking PBR.

  57. Sweetie, I wouldn’t even drink that shit in college when it was $3.50 for a case and I had to choose between laundry and beer. I really do not understand the hipster obsession with drinking it ironically.

  58. Oh, dear.

    Then I’m terribly, terribly sorry about the accident.

    You know, that terrible accident that led to the loss of your tastebuds.

    Tragic, that.

  59. PBR is disgusting. But then, most beer is disgusting.

    I drink wine. Mark Warner appeals to moderates, and he has a farm with a vinyard on it, so it must be okay.

  60. I drink wine. Mark Warner appeals to moderates, and he has a farm with a vinyard on it, so it must be okay.

    CHARDONNAY-SWILLING COASTAL ELITIST!

  61. merlot’s been out since sideways made everyone think they know something about wine, now it’s pinot noir.

  62. zuzu: Drop the defensive strawmanning and respond to the post, not the Tom Tomorrows in your head.

    I’m not strawmanning. If you will read the entire discussion, you will find that I never accused you of wanting to abandon the south. All I’ve suggested is that “write off” is probably the wrong phrase to use, first because you advocate activism that is likely to translate to electoral success, and second because it’s a phrase that has been loaded with the safety off by those people who do want to abandon red state activism.

    And also, I disagree with your perception of a large chunk of the electoral map as lost before the primaries are over. I think the democrats have an opportunity to convert some weak red states into battleground states.

  63. I think the democrats have an opportunity to convert some weak red states into battleground states.

    It’s not the weak red states that are the problem, it’s the deep red states. And when you have limited time and resources, you can’t spend a whole lot of time fighting for marginal increases in votes in those states.

  64. It’s not the weak red states that are the problem, it’s the deep red states. And when you have limited time and resources, you can’t spend a whole lot of time fighting for marginal increases in votes in those states.

    Well Clinton won GA, LA, AK, and TN in 92. He won FL, LA, AK, and TN in 96. TN and VA were battleground states in 2006. So there is about half of “the south” which has not been “deep red” in recent history.

    And again, I think that investing in strengthening local and state party political organizations is one of the best ways to improve electoral success. If you have hundreds of volunteers willing to campaign in-state, then why not use them?

  65. I grew up in Louisiana and live in Virginia now. One of my favorite mailing list flamewars ever was when I insisted Democrats should not cater to racists and was told I was a clueless northerner who didn’t understand the south. This was from someone who knew me personally – just not well enough, I guess.

    Beneath the surface that’s what this debate is about although typically no one comes right out and says so. Is the Democratic party going to try to kiss the ass of racists or not? Funnily enough, in Virginia there are Democrats who still want to, even though the last two elections have proved that isn’t necessary. Tim Kaine, elected governor in 2005, got his start in politics as a civil rights lawyer. And Jim Webb got elected to the Senate in part because of that video of George Allen using a racial slur.

    It’s not all about race of course, all the time. I think the water gets muddied because there are a number of things that generally go hand-in-hand: racism, anti-feminism, homophobia, and authoritarianism are usually a package deal. But not always. Stephanie Herseth of South Dakota is anti-racist, and if not a feminist exactly than at least anti-antifeminist; but she votes homophobic and authoritarian (i.e. pro-war and anti-civil liberties) to the max. So she confuses people.

    Hmmmmmm!

  66. Well, Jill, when they target single women as the “swing vote” and the news says “single women can swing the vote,” this demographic votes differently than married women. Single women are much more likely to vote Democratic but it could work if there are common issues between single and married women such as health care. Married women may be less interested in choice than single women but I don’t have data for that.

  67. Didn’t Pabst used to be from Milwaukee? Come to think of it, didn’t most beer used to be from Milwaukee?

    I used to have this idea that the North was morally superior to the South, but then I realized that Northerners don’t discriminate, they just spread rumors that the Hmongs next door ate their dog.

  68. see the funny thing is the whole point of the post was that democrats have been spending way too much time entering into conversations with people that don’t agree with them on anything.

    every time we meet some one in the middle, it shifts the middle further away from our core beliefs, and so we shift further and further right.

    also, you’re a libertarian, not a conservative.

    The problem is that Democrats haven’t been entering into a conversation. Democrats, like Republicans, have been trying to convince people that they are meeting in the middle without changing anything. Worse, they are often changing without thinking. You see people like John Kerry advocating gun control while trying to court the gun vote by being filmed with a shotgun that cost more than my car. On the other side you see people like Hilary Clinton supporting the war and the Patriot act because, well, it’ll look good. Neither of those are meeting half way, they’re lying and folding.

    What I was talking about was actually addressing the other side. I don’t expect a liberal progressive to come around to my way of thinking when it comes to say, guns. I know that people who are in to gun control aren’t delusional or nefarious, I know that they have come to their conclusions in the same way that I have. I’d just like to see an actual conversation, an attempt for each side to better understand one another so the rhetoric can be tuned down. In the end, no one is served by how ugly and divisive politics have become (and yes, the lion’s share of the blame for that garbage lies at the feet of the Republicans).

    Oh, and incidentally, I know where I fall politically. Libertarianism is generally how I identify, but it falls within conservatism. Within the context of a discussion on a board with generally progressive politics I felt the nuance was unnecessary.

  69. When were guns last a huge Democratic issue anyway, outside the assault rifle ban?

    The assault weapons ban is a big deal because it is a badly written law that essentially makes certain guns illegal because they look scary. It has nothing to do with crime, it has nothing to do with safety, and it doesn’t even have much to do with functionality. It doesn’t make machine guns or short barreled rifles/shotguns illegal (that happened in the 1930s), it doesn’t make “cop killing guns illegal” (because such things don’t really exist), and it doesn’t make guns often used by criminals illegal (criminals like concealability, not visibility). It is the firearm equivalent of those shitty laws designed to reduce abortions by opening a backdoor.

    More to the point, guns might not be a national Democratic issue, but they are a local issue. Here in Illinois we have a defacto handgun ban, we have a mayor in Chicago trying to sue gun manufacturers out of business, we have democratic legislators blocking any pro-gun legislation through dirty tricks, and we have a county trying to use registration records to get rid of guns that were bought legally by are now banned by a badly written “assault rifle” law. Just because Clinton and Obama aren’t banging the drum doesn’t mean that it isn’t a major issue in local elections.

    But, as much as I’d like to argue this, I think were a bit off-topic here.

  70. The assault weapons ban is a big deal because it is a badly written law that essentially makes certain guns illegal because they look scary. It has nothing to do with crime, it has nothing to do with safety, and it doesn’t even have much to do with functionality. It doesn’t make machine guns or short barreled rifles/shotguns illegal (that happened in the 1930s), it doesn’t make “cop killing guns illegal” (because such things don’t really exist), and it doesn’t make guns often used by criminals illegal (criminals like concealability, not visibility). It is the firearm equivalent of those shitty laws designed to reduce abortions by opening a backdoor.

    More to the point, guns might not be a national Democratic issue, but they are a local issue. Here in Illinois we have a defacto handgun ban, we have a mayor in Chicago trying to sue gun manufacturers out of business, we have democratic legislators blocking any pro-gun legislation through dirty tricks, and we have a county trying to use registration records to get rid of guns that were bought legally by are now banned by a badly written “assault rifle” law. Just because Clinton and Obama aren’t banging the drum doesn’t mean that it isn’t a major issue in local elections.

    But, as much as I’d like to argue this, I think were a bit off-topic here.

    Jesus Fucking Christ. After all these years, I finally met someone on this blog with a brain.

    I’m changing my religious beliefs. Right now.

  71. Morgan, I’m a southern white woman. I grew up around the southern white male Mudcat is talking about trying to convert. It ain’t agonna happen. Period. The ones he wants to convert will vote to raise their own taxes if “god, guns and gays” come into play. They will vote completely against their own interests.

    There’s a reason I left the southern baptist church (well, besides being an educated woman). This would be it.

    We can get more voters by focusing on the real progressive issues. Forget trying to convert a certain bloc by trying to be, basically, republican lite. They aren’t going to vote for us anyway.

  72. Well Clinton won GA, LA, AK, and TN in 92. He won FL, LA, AK, and TN in 96. TN and VA were battleground states in 2006. So there is about half of “the south” which has not been “deep red” in recent history.

    And he did so with a fraction of the white male vote. If you read the first link, you’ll see that.

    In any event, he carried the states with large urban populations, his home state, and his running mate’s home state. Which means that people other than white males helped him win those states, and anyone who says that the key to winning the South is to appeal to the Bubba vote is a fool.

    You keep mentioning the Senate races of 2006, but Webb is a former Republican, and might not have won had Allen not fucked up badly with the macaca moment, and Ford — now a DLC hack — got smeared using racist fears. And lost. Are these states where we want to concentrate on the conservative white vote by running conservative campaigns?

  73. I didn’t say anything about running conservative campaigns. What I said is that reinforcing and expanding the progressive base that already exists in those states is likely to lead to surprising electoral successes.

  74. Jesus Fucking Christ. After all these years, I finally met someone on this blog with a brain.

    I’m changing my religious beliefs. Right now.

    May I suggest pastafarianism? I mean, I’m not too sure what religion and guns have to do with each other (unless you think Heston was actually Moses), but if my post has inspired you to abandon your faith, I’d say anything involving magical flying food and pirates is pretty damned spiffy.

    All snark aside, please, don’t be an asshole. There are plenty of people on this blog who I might disagree with, but it isn’t often I run into idiots. Respect the sandbox and avoid the personal attacks, k?

  75. I didn’t say anything about running conservative campaigns. What I said is that reinforcing and expanding the progressive base that already exists in those states is likely to lead to surprising electoral successes.

    We seem to be talking past each other, because that’s exactly what I’ve been saying, too. Though I don’t happen to think that writing off, say, Texas, is a bad idea for the next few cycles.

    Jesus Fucking Christ. After all these years, I finally met someone on this blog with a brain.

    Your esteemed hostesses would like to remind you that if you are not enthralled with the level of discourse here, there are numerous other fine establishments in which you might find more agreeable accommodations.

  76. Your esteemed hostesses would like to remind you that if you are not enthralled with the level of discourse here, there are numerous other fine establishments in which you might find more agreeable accommodations.

    …I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone be told to fuck off with such diplomacy. All philosophical disagreements aside, awesome!

  77. Yeah, as long as the democratic candidates (except for Kucinich) are all homophobes too, of course Bubba can get on board!

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