Men aren’t really like this, right? September 16, 2007 Jill It’s just the ones I’m dating, right? …right? Someday I’ll date a guy who pays his own rent, won’t I?
As maddening as this archetype is. . . it reflects reality precisely as much as the “castrating bitch” or “happy housewife” does. Let’s give the menz credit for being as complicated and diverse as we ladies are. 🙂
Note: I also posted this comment on feministing. I may be obtuse, but I often wonder whether the discourse on “slackerism” is a form of shaming to force those who do not conform to American society’s cookie-cutter expectations of adulthood to move out of the home, find a “respectable career” (translation: conventional & lucrative), get married, have a family, and otherwise reproduce the status quo. I find the first to be infuriating considering the high price of housing and the fact that in my family’s country of origin, it was more common for adult children to remain at home until or even after marriage. From what I’ve gathered from most international students, having adult children remain at home is considered normal, not a sign of immaturity or an inability to stand on one’s own feet. If anything, these assumptions that adult children staying at home == immaturity/late development seems to be seen by these students as a mainly “American” idea. As far as I am concerned, as long as the adult children are not posing a burden on their parents financially or otherwise, they should be free of the “slacker” label that too many Americans feel free to slap on anyone who does not conform to the increasingly financially unrealistic “milestone” of adulthood and “maturity”. Not sure about you, but some of this type of shaming seems to strongly privilege middle/ upper-class American cultural and socio-economic values.
I find the first to be infuriating considering the high price of housing and the fact that in my family’s country of origin, it was more common for adult children to remain at home until or even after marriage. It’s my understanding that in those sorts of arrangements, the adult children are expected to contribute to the family enterprise–working in the business, helping to pay rent, doing work around the house, caring for their parents if they become ill or injured, and so on?
It’s my understanding that in those sorts of arrangements, the adult children are expected to contribute to the family enterprise–working in the business, helping to pay rent, doing work around the house, caring for their parents if they become ill or injured, and so on? mythago, That is usually the case, but not always. Also, which child gets to do the bulk of what you describe depends on which child/children are favored/disfavored and the cultural context. Moreover, I knew many former classmates and friends in their 20s and 30s here in the states who do all you described above and are still labeled slackers and are stigmatized as “immature” solely because they still lived at home. It is this form of snap judgmentalism that I do not understand and have a big problem with. This judgmentalism is based on stereotypes that do not take into account the complex variations of adult children’s relationships to their families along with neglecting the fact that not all young American adults are economically privileged to move out soon after graduation.
Women: are they as frequently spies, district attorneys, and cheerleaders as it seems? Or just the ones I date? — ACS
I’m sorry if I sound like a shallow girl that pisses of Nice Guys® left and right, but dating someone who had his own place that had furniture and was clean was a giant relief. Why? Not because Womenz R Shallow, but because hygiene is a good thing and a man who takes care of himself is not looking for a woman to take care of him. As a general rule, slackers I’ve dated are all too happy to have you clean up after them (hell, I’ve had one DEMAND it) and will flake out on you, showing up late or not coming home when they said and then whining if you complain and accusing you of being clingy for having the oh-so-high expectation of being treated with the basic respect you show even minor acquaintances.
It’s not really related to class. American children are expected to not live at home after 18. After college, they are expected to work, go to grad school, get married, “get a life,” move on. I noticed that white American parents are much less forgiving financially than Chinese American parents, meaning, “you’re on your own sucker!” after 18 or 22. Both systems have their advantages.
Oops I was insinuating I’m not American when I obviously am. I’ve noticed white American parents are much less forgiving after 18 or 22.
It’s not really related to class. Donna, Just because you say it is not related to class does not necessarily make it true. I’ve witnessed an increasing number of young adults within my age group (under 30) among my high school/college classmates and co-workers who have had to move back home due to high housing costs, lack of decent paying jobs out of school, high college loan debt if they attended college, need to financially contribute/help around the household, and more. Nearly all of the people I know in this situation tend to come from working class or low-middle class backgrounds who came from regions with some of the highest housing costs in the nation (NE urban cities). It is interesting to notice that you mention “White Americans” as this trend is even starting to affect them. As someone has noted on the feministing board, much of this American “ideal” of “moving out” originated when the US economy was in much better shape to provide decent paying jobs so young high school graduates had the economic wherewithal to start their own households. However, due to current economic realities, this has increasingly become more difficult. The only people I’ve known who have been able to move out are those few who were able to land high paying jobs right out of school and/or came from economically privileged backgrounds with parents to subsidize their first few months/years of “independent living” in their $2-3k/month apartments in desirable urban areas. Everyone else I know had to move back home to build up enough savings so they can move out after several years. No offense, but the quoted statement you made reminds me of upper/upper-middle class backgrounded co-workers who I witnessed rag on those who lived/moved back home for financial reasons. Being that I suffered similar barely veiled socio-economic snobbery from similarly backgrounded classmates as a working class scholarship student at a well-known liberal arts college in many other contexts, I cannot help but see this as another insidious form of socio-economic privilege/snobbery rearing its ugly head against those who were not blessed with such privileges.
I think it’s more the issue of eschewing all responsibilities, whatever they maybe, in favor of purposefully stunted maturity.
Firstly, I was joking when I asked if all men are like this. Of course they aren’t. Sorry, I thought that would be obvious enough. It is true, however, that every guy I’ve ever seriously dated didn’t pay his own rent. None of them lived with their parents, though — their parents just paid for them to live in really nice Manhattan apartments. It’s understandable, of course — if my parents offered to pay my rent, I’d take it in a second. The Feministing post just made me think about it, and it dawned on me that every single boyfriend I’ve had in the past five years has had his parents paying his rent (and often, paying for everything else in his life). It made me laugh, I posted it.
I imagine that most every guy you date has exquisitely progressively politics, as well. You (and they) have hothouse values, that can survive only through parasitism on some other viable way of life. Your boyfriends’ parents’ economic conservatism, in this case.
I imagine that most every guy you date has exquisitely progressively politics, as well. You (and they) have hothouse values, that can survive only through parasitism on some other viable way of life. Your boyfriends’ parents’ economic conservatism, in this case. Hmmm… isn’t it economic liberalism to pay for your kid to live in their own really nice apartment rather than just having them live and home and commute? Also, who’s subsidizing my “hothouse values”?
Jill, I got the joking intention of your initial post. I have no argument with your post. I was taking issue with the statement that the slacker discourse is not a socio-economic class issue when it is painfully clear to me and my friends and co-workers that it is. I’ve witnessed too many instances of how the use of the “slacker” and “immature” labels gets misapplied to those who work hard professionally and contributing to the household chores/family solely for living at home. Unless one knows the full background story of why a young adult is living/moved back home, I don’t think we as outside observers have a right to judge, much less associate unsavory character traits to them.
Oh Exholt, I know. I was responding to the comments which asked if this was sarcastic, and which seemed offended.
I’ve witnessed an increasing number of young adults within my age group (under 30) among my high school/college classmates and co-workers who have had to move back home due to high housing costs, lack of decent paying jobs out of school, high college loan debt if they attended college, need to financially contribute/help around the household, and more. Nearly all of the people I know in this situation tend to come from working class or low-middle class backgrounds who came from regions with some of the highest housing costs in the nation (NE urban cities). Not to be contrary, but I’ve experienced the exact opposite. I went to Queen’s University in Kingston, a school with a reputation for having a student body that was white/WASPy/well-off/preppy – which had a kernel of truth to it, but was exaggerated, in my opinion. I lived on student loans and court-ordered child support, as well as a part-time job, so I knew many others in my kind of position. When I graduated, most of the people I worked with (most from middle-class, small-to mid-sized hometowns) moved to Toronto, got apartments and jobs; like myself, there was no point moving back home, because there were no jobs (unless I wanted to work at our local nuclear power plant.) We had debt to pay off, so we had to find a reasonably good job (fast), find roommates, pay rent, etc. The people who moved back home? Those students I knew who were well-off, whose parents lived in the best areas of Toronto and had paid for their education, no student debt. Most lived at home, while working, then about half of those used their savings to go gallivant around the world. They’ve come back, still living at home while they work part-time and look for the “perfect career” at their leisure. My roommate (who has obviously moved out), comes from a well-off family; she worked a crappy-entry level job for the year and was reasonably independent, but when she wasn’t successful with her law-school applications, her parents are now paying her rent and expenses while she studies for the LSATs again and applies to other programs, so it’s a most illusory independence. I really don’t think this is a class-based phenomenon. The most common factor of “failure to launch” syndrome are parents who are willing to accommodate it.
NB: Slackers don’t necessarily live with their parents. It is true, however, that every guy I’ve ever seriously dated didn’t pay his own rent. None of them lived with their parents, though — their parents just paid for them to live in really nice Manhattan apartments. It’s understandable, of course — if my parents offered to pay my rent, I’d take it in a second. The Feministing post just made me think about it, and it dawned on me that every single boyfriend I’ve had in the past five years has had his parents paying his rent (and often, paying for everything else in his life). It made me laugh, I posted it. At your age, you’re going to get a lot of that sort of thing. If this continues to be an issue as you near 30, there’s definitely a problem. Exholt, someone who works hard and contributes to the economy of the family is sort of by definition not a slacker. I imagine that most every guy you date has exquisitely progressively politics, as well. You (and they) have hothouse values, that can survive only through parasitism on some other viable way of life. Your boyfriends’ parents’ economic conservatism, in this case. Sorta like how red states only survive economically because they mooch off blue states’ tax money?
Wow. I….wow. Obviously I don’t know any of these sorts of males. I know one perhaps “listless” lad from my high school days, but all the rest of jobs/careers, a few have marriages for those inclined towards that quaint old tradition, but are otherwise going about their business as adults. P.S. – Seriously, there are twentysomething males who don’t pay their own rent in Manhattan? That’s pretty appalling. I’ve paid my own rent for the past five years (since I moved here) in Manhattan on a grad student stipend. Yes, I do have roommates, and my apartment isn’t all that spectacular, but such is the trade-off, I guess.
It is true, however, that every guy I’ve ever seriously dated didn’t pay his own rent. None of them lived with their parents, though — their parents just paid for them to live in really nice Manhattan apartments. It’s understandable, of course — if my parents offered to pay my rent, I’d take it in a second. The Feministing post just made me think about it, and it dawned on me that every single boyfriend I’ve had in the past five years has had his parents paying his rent (and often, paying for everything else in his life). It made me laugh, I posted it. Don’t take this as a criticism–you can’t change the social class you wound up in–but I think your observation is very specifically rooted in a very small, very elite community. You’re a law student at the first-tier university with the poorest need-based aid program. This means that the vast majority of people you encounter are going to have substantial outside support; for a lot of them, that’s their parents. — ACS
I think there are two situations here. On the one hand, I had a Mexican-American friend who lived at home and paid part of the mortgage while she was working and going to school (both undergrad and graduate). I have unfortunately lost track of her, but unless she and her mom had the final blow-out that was always pending (unrelated to her living at home), she’s probably still there. I think that’s the kind of situation exholt is thinking of. On the other hand, when I myself was in graduate school, the only person I knew who lived at home was the daughter of two doctors who lived in Bel-Air and drove her parents’ BMW to school every day. So while there is a class aspect, it’s not working-class vs. upper-class. It’s more like working- and upper-class vs. middle-class.
exholt, Manhattan is not the world. New York City is expensive compared to the rest of the country. When I graduated from college I wanted to live in New York City but knew I couldn’t because I’m not good at saving money. I never understood the classmates who could. It just doesn’t make sense to me! How they manage to live in New York City right after college. Part of it was lots of roommates, I think. Jill, All your boyfriends sound rich.
Brooklyn ain’t cheap either! What I wouldn’t do to live there. Wait that was my twenties. The quiet suburbs are fine in my thirties. Exholt, I see you on feminist blogs and all you do is rag on feminism and progressivism. You blame your class envy on feminism and progressives. Your time would be better spent reading socialist blogs. P.S. Google.
The funny thing is I didn’t say anything remotely classist and exholt went ballistic for no reason. On feministing, after exholt’s obligatory class envy whining, someone said what I said and he didn’t object: In most Asian cultures, there is no social stigma to people leaving with their parents. Actually, it is seen as being filial, due to one taking care of their parents. At some point in time, the children will take over the cares of the house, and it would be an inheritance to them. When you consider the escalating real estate prices in Asia (as well as the rest of the world), this is practical and often people who want to live in houses outside will wait until they have a sizeable amount of money to afford the downpayment on the house. Once again, practicality trumps everything, as from most Asian’s viewpoint, if you work in the same city/state, why utilize money paying for rent, when you can save it up and afford a better place in the future? Some food for thought, from someone who’s lived in Asia Pacific all his life.
Donna, My issue with your statement was your statement that “It is not really related to class”. By making such a statement, you are making a statement that denies an underlying socio-economic cause that is quite apparent to all of the working and low-middle class classmates and co-workers who live/moved back home as young adults. I also cannot see how stating “Manhattan is not the world” is relevant as I was not only referring to NYC nor have I thought of Manhattan as anything more than one of the five boroughs. Moreover, I’m not talking about young adults who are relocating to NYC or other NE American cities for a career and/or for the experience. The ones I am referring to are those who were born or spent nearly all of their formative years growing up within those NE urban areas. Even those who live in boroughs outside of Manhattan or “less expensive” suburbs/neighborhoods in the greater Boston area find the housing rental market to be such that they do not have the financial wherewithal to move out unless they land a high paying job right out from high school/college. A few years ago, I remembered reading a report that to live anywhere within the city of Boston, one had to make at least around $60,000 to be able to cover the rent and other living costs. It also does not help that housing costs are driven upwards by variables such as gentrification…especially when it is driven by landlords who know they have plenty of college students and/or young adults whose wealthy parents are more than happy to pay whatever exorbitant rents they are willing to charge. Heck, even with a high paying job, that is not always possible as they may still need to move back home to pay off loans for whatever financial aid/scholarships did not cover and/or contribute their income towards supporting their families, especially if they have younger siblings. I think what you take as ragging was really my reacting to your sanctimonious snap overgeneralizations and judgments I’ve seen you practice on me and other bloggers both feminist and non-feminists who disagree with your perspective on various issues under discussion. This is further underscored by the patronizing tone of your statement that “You blame your class envy on feminism and progressives. Your time would be better spent reading socialist blogs.”
I also cannot see how stating “Manhattan is not the world” is relevant as I was not only referring to NYC nor have I thought of Manhattan as anything more than one of the five boroughs. I wasn’t talking to you.
It is true, however, that every guy I’ve ever seriously dated didn’t pay his own rent. I think that says as much about you as it does the slackers. What about these slackers do you find so attractive? The quiet suburbs are fine in my thirties. I was sure you were a teenager.
Well, I suspect it says that I’m a student, and I’ve mostly dated other students. I dunno. When I was a student, I paid my own rent. So did most of my friends. And those I dated, too. Maybe it’s a NY student thing.
Exholt, You keep misappropriating statements other people made onto me. zuzu made the statement that Manhattan is not New York and frankly, you confused Jill with me with her post which at first appeared to look down on people who lived at home when she was really talking about men whose parents pay their New York City rents. It’s not wrong to point out your continuous harping on feminism and progressivism as the cause of your class envy. It’s misplaced because you’re projecting your negative life experiences with people on blogs who are NOT LIKE the people who brushed you off. You have never said anything on feminist blogs supportive of feminism so you’re not even a feminist. You are only on feminist blogs to whine about your class envy which has nothing to do with feminism. In fact, the people who need feminism the most are poor women and women of color. If you’re only on feminist blogs to blame feminism and progressivism, you’re a troll.
Finally, exholt, It’s correct to criticize you if you’re constantly bashing feminism and progressivism on feminist blogs. It’s correct to criticize anyone who is sexist or anti-progressive on feminist and progressive blogs.