In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set || First feminist blog on the internet

Is there a prostitution solution?

Bob Herbert has an interesting column in the Times about the problems with legalized prostitution. He writes:

A lot of people more thoughtful than Oscar Goodman believe that prostitution should be legalized as a way of protecting and empowering the women who go into the sex trade. I’ve lost patience with those arguments, however well meaning. Real-world prostitution, in whatever guise, bears no resemblance at all to the empowerment fantasies of prostitution proponents. I have never seen such vulnerable, powerless women as those in the sex trade, legal or illegal.


I’m one of those people who makes the legalization argument, minus the whole “empowering” thing. I don’t think that sex work or stripping is empowering for women, but I realize that making money can be. I also don’t think that most Americans find their jobs particularly “empowering.” I’ve had jobs that I liked well enough, but I didn’t often feel empowered by them. Doesn’t make ’em bad or even morally neutral, but for me, empowerment arguments are neither here nor there, and I find them silly when they’re trotted out on either end (i.e., “Stripping is empowering!” or “But stripping is not empowering!”). This isn’t a choice between empowering or not. Empowerment or lack thereof isn’t a sufficient argument for or against legalized prostitution.

Herbert’s major point is that prostituted women are powerless, vulnerable and exploited, even in places where prostitution is legal and/or regulated. He’s right. It’s interesting to see the narratives surrounding sex work. When people write about sex workers, the story is that sex workers are exploited, abused, poor, and selling sex out of sheer desperation. When sex workers write about themselves, it tends to be the more privileged women who are able to get their voices out there — women who are better-educated, who aren’t forced into prostitution, who are call-girls instead of street prostitutes, who are white, etc (this shouldn’t surprise us, since people who get book deals in the first place tend to come from more privileged places, and have the privilege of accessing the publishing industry in the first place). That obviously isn’t a bright-line rule, but it seems to be the trend. I’m glad that the voices of actual sex workers are finally getting out there, and that they’re challenging what other people have been writing about them for so long. Some sex workers enjoy their work. Some may not love it, but see it like any other job — only one where they get paid better than they would doing most kinds of low-skilled labor. Some did it as a temporary thing to get by. Some don’t hang much of anything on it. Those experiences are all valid. Sex workers deserve decent working conditions just like any other employee, and they deserve to enjoy their jobs or bitch about them or not care either way, just like anyone who works in an office or at a check-out counter or at a restaurant.

This issue is interesting to me particularly because I’m currently living in a city where sex work is legal and regulated. I’ve been to the Reeperbahn (the red-light district), and while it’s not nearly as seedy as, say, Amsterdam’s, it’s also not exactly paradise. As a port city, Hamburg has a long, long history of sex work — one of the main streets through the city center is called the “street of the virgins” because it was the one place where, back in the day, society women could walk unaccompanied without having their reputations sullied. The virgin-whore dichotomy that attaches itself to prostitution is troubling; it’s certainly not a feminist goal to return to the days of good women and those women. But how do we address the very real problems of prostitution and sex work without insulting or condescending to sex workers? How do we deal with the really horrific, deep problems in the sex industry while still representing the diversity of experiences within that industry?

Herbert’s column is a laundry list of atrocities. He writes:

At Sheri’s Ranch, a legal brothel about an hour’s ride outside of Vegas, the women have to respond like Pavlov’s dog to a bell that might ring at any hour of the day or night. It could be 4 a.m., and the woman might be sleeping. Or she might not be feeling well. Too bad.

When that electronic bell rings, she has five minutes to get to the assembly area, a large room where she will line up with the other women, virtually naked, and submit to a humiliating inspection by any prospective customer who happens to drop by.

“It’s not fun,” one of the women whispered to me during a tour of the brothel.

That a city, a state or any other governmental entity in the U.S. could legally sanction the sexual degradation of women and girls under any circumstances, much less those who are so extremely vulnerable, is an atrocity. And if you don’t think legalized prostitution is about degradation, consider the “date room” at Sheri’s. That’s a small room where a quiet dinner for two can be served. Beneath the tiny table is a couple of towels and a cushion for the woman to kneel on.

That is some ugly, demeaning, degrading stuff. This article, also about legal prostitution in Nevada, gives even more examples:

The women are expected to live in the brothels and to work 12- to 14-hour shifts. Mary, a prostitute in a legal brothel for three years, outlines the restrictions. “You are not allowed to have your own car,” she notes. “It’s like [the pimp’s] own little police state.” When a customer arrives, a bell rings, and the women immediately have to present themselves in a line-up, so he can choose who to buy.

Sheriffs in some counties of Nevada also enforce practices that are illegal. In one city, for example, prostitutes are not allowed to leave the brothel after 5pm, are not permitted in bars, and, if entering a restaurant, must use a back door and be accompanied by a man.

Obviously legalized prostitution isn’t exactly the safe haven for women that some claim it could be. There is, no doubt, lots of unbelievably horrible stuff happening in legal brothels. I don’t think it’s crazy to suggest that the majority of prostitutes world-wide would prefer to be doing something else. And, to be quite honest, I do think there’s something inherently troubling and thoroughly fucked up about selling sex, and with having one half of the human race always in the position of buyer. At the same time, we sell personal services all the time — house-keeping, massage and care-giving are the three that come most immediately to mind. And of course, these professions are also disproportionately female. But something about sex work is… different. I’m not quite able to articulate what that difference is. Perhaps it’s the pleasure in degradation that men seem to get out of visiting prostitutes, or even talking about prostitution. The sense of entitlement to women’s bodies, and the conflation of sexual pleasure with sexual violence, the inability to look at sex workers as actual human beings. The fact that we have all of these existing cultural hang-ups about sex, and when you put a price on it — on someone — it comes with a whole net of misogyny and male entitlement. I don’t know what, exactly, feels different about sex work from other personal service professions, but I think it’s situated somewhere in what I just wrote. Perhaps tomorrow I’ll be more articulate.

Then there’s the argument that prostitution simply formalizes what’s usually an informal agreement — the exchange of money and goods for sex. Traditional marriage, after all, was basically an economic agreement where a woman quite literally sold herself and gave up her status as an individual to be part of her husband, who essentially paid her to have sex with him, clean up, and make babies (to be crass about it). But being married conferred a social status up on the woman that made it ok to be paid for sex and other services. Prostitutes, on the other hand, are low class. The girls you fuck, not the ones you marry.

And so discussing this is complicated, because there has to be a balance between shining light on the ugliness that often comes with sex work, and at the same time not further marginalizing or demonizing or othering sex workers.

Trafficking of women and girls to work in the sex trade is a huge problem. Continued abuse of regularly abused women who enter the sex trade voluntarily is a huge problem. Herbert writes:

The first thing to understand about prostitution, including legal prostitution, is that the element of coercion is almost always present. Despite the fiction that they are “independent contractors,” most so-called legal prostitutes have pimps — the state-sanctioned pimps who run the brothels and, in many cases, a second pimp who controls all other aspects of their lives (and takes the bulk of their legal earnings).

They are hardly empowered. Years of studies have shown that most prostitutes are pushed into the trade in their early teens by grown men. A large percentage are victims of incest or other forms of childhood sexual abuse. Most are dirt poor. Many are drug-addicted. And most are plagued by devastatingly low levels of self esteem.

And then there are the armies of women and girls who are trafficked into the sex trade by organized criminals, both inside and outside of the U.S.

I hear him. But at the same time, there are women who enter sex work uncoerced. And even that aside — will illegalizing prostitution solve any of these problems?

As sympathetic as I am to articles like these, at the end of the day I’m not seeing any solutions coming out of the anti-legalization side. The oldest profession isn’t going to go away any time soon, and while increased gender equality and greater access to education can help women and girls to have more opportunities, until we see a serious shift in how men view women, there will continue to be a huge demand for sex work. Someone will step in to fill that demand. If there aren’t enough people stepping in, someone will be forced in.

No one should have to work in conditions like those described by the above-linked articles. So how about regulating it a little tighter? How about establishing outreach programs for sex workers who want out, drug and alcohol treatment programs for sex workers who are addicts, and better and more affordable physical and psychological health care for everyone? How about putting some of the onus on men who frequent prostitutes — requiring them to register with the government and prove that they have a clean bill of health? Require condom use, no excuses. Have reasonable working hours. Regularly interview sex workers to keep a check on possible abuses. Hold brothels to higher building standards. Demand that sex workers who work out of brothels be provided the basic tools of their trade, like bedsheets and condoms. Or how about asking actual sex workers what would make their lives better? It wouldn’t solve all of those problems, but it could help.

Prostitution continues whether sex work is legal or not. Except when it’s illegal, sex workers suffer even more because they have no recourse if they’re abused, raped, robbed, or otherwise victimized. It’s even easier for pimps to exploit them. Legalization clearly doesn’t solve these problems, but it may be the lesser of two evils. And done in conjunction with social programs that aspire to get some women help if they need it seems like a better idea than just pretending prostitution doesn’t exist, or praying for the day when it goes away.

There’s a big difference between the abused 16-year-old runaway who winds up living in a Nevada brothel and having her life controlled by a pimp, and the college-educated 30-something who sells sex to supplement (or provider) her income, and who is able to select her clients and say “no” when she wants. Yet when we’re sculpting social policy, we need to make sure that these women, and all the other women in between, and all the women who have it even worse, are protected. We also need to make sure that they’re treated like human beings who have a diversity of experiences and needs.

In case it’s not clear by now, sex work is a really troubling issue for me, and I’m still sorting out where I stand on it. But eventually, I always come down on the decriminalization side. It’s the specifics of how we manage decriminalization that throw me. And it’s the fact that this is one of those issues where there is simply no great solution.

I’m really curious to hear all your thoughts on this.


99 thoughts on Is there a prostitution solution?

  1. One really good website for feminist anti-prostitution activism and solid, peer-reviewed, published research is http://www.prostitutionresearch.com One of their studies took at look at PTSD among women in prostitution in five (and then later, updating it to nine) countries and found that PTSD among these women (even EXCLUDING women who self-identify as having been raped in prostitution) was higher than PTSD among American Vietnam War combat veterans. I think that any “profession” that produces such high rates of mental illness among its workers during the normal course of their “employment” doesn’t deserve to be “legal.”

    As a sidenote, part of their questionnaire included questions about “What do you need?” And more women said they needed “out” than for their “work” to be legalized.

  2. My thoughts: Prostitution is one of those sad facts of our reality. Legalisation alone wouldn’t be enough, really, to protect the women in those situations. Exploitation, realistically, would always occur. Even if documentation were required and certain rules had to be met, owners of brothels would find ways around them, as they do now, and offer underage girls forced into such work or worse.

    Social attitudes toward sex work have to change before legalisation would do any good. It would have to be demystified and destigmatised, and women would actually have to be seen as human beings rather than objects of amusement and service. I’ve had this argument with my boyfriend lots of times, and others. The law can’t just reflect our ideology, it also has to be based on our social reality. It’s all well and good to talk about documentation and legal protection, but it’s the social attitudes of our culture that place women in sex work in peril. Currently legal brothels aren’t the model of legal prostitution because there is almost no regulation, and really none that takes the health or safety of the women there into account. It sounds to me like they are thought of as livestock by these local governments.

    But prostitution will never go away, and it will only remain dangerous to the women involved as long as the stigma also remains and keeps them silent. So long as both the law and those around them perpetuate the shame of their status.

    Thanks for the article… it definitely gave me more to work with.

  3. Another resource that looks at legalized prostitution, specifically, Nevada’s brothel system is Alexa Albert’s _Brothel: Mustang Ranch and Its Women_
    http://www.amazon.com/Brothel-Mustang-Ranch-Its-Women/dp/0449006581/

    While it does go into quite a lot of detail on how bad working conditions are there including the segregeation and othering from the surrounding communities, it’s also pretty good at describing the horrors of illegal street prostitution, and it makes that sound far worse.

  4. First, Herbert has been attacking Las Vegas and I just want to clear something up: Prostitution is NOT legal in Las Vegas. And it’s highly unlikely that it will become legal any time soon. Only the small counties in Nevada that vote for it have legalized prostitution. It’s not legal all over Nevada and it’s not legal in Vegas.

    I agree with you. I see prostitution sort of like drugs. There are lots of terrible things about both things, but many of those terrible things are made worse, not better, by criminalizing the activity. And there are some people who have enough power to freely choose to be involved – those people shouldn’t be denied the right to do with their bodies what they want, so long as it’s not hurting anyone else.

    The trouble is that legalization often carries more burdens for the sex workers than for their brothel managers or the customers. And the benefits of legalization don’t always reach the sex workers. And that’s just not right.

    The oldest profession isn’t going to go away any time soon, and while increased gender equality and greater access to education can help women and girls to have more opportunities, until we see a serious shift in how men view women, there will continue to be a huge demand for sex work. Someone will step in to fill that demand. If there aren’t enough people stepping in, someone will be forced in.

    I sort of agree. However I don’t think it’s that simple. I think “demand” is manufactured by the same people who manufacture (force, coerce, otherwise oppress) sex workers.

    It’s a really tricky issue, one that we definitely ought to give serious thought.

  5. As far as I can tell, decriminalized prostitution is worse than all other systems or professions, save one: illegal prostitution. Kind of like prohibition still allowed for cirrhosis, drunk driving fatalities, brain damage, with the bonus of organized violence and criminal empires. Illegal cocaine does all the damage of decriminalized cocaine usage, with the bonus of a 30-year civil-war and crimelords so powerful they can execute scores of Colombian judges.

    In an ideal world, all of the money going towards the ticky-tack local law enforcement efforts which have made absolutely no dent in the enterprise would go to fighting international trafficking and setting up escape shelters for people in the sex trade, who, as Laura noticed above, want “out.”

  6. One thing that occurred to me reading a similar article on legalization of prostitution not automatically resulting in better conditions is that there is no way to be a conscious consumer of sex services; the customer doesn’t know to what extent the provider may have been coerced, whether or not they have been trafficked, how well they are treated, etc.

    I’m not saying most customers of sex services would care necessarily, but it does seem to me that if prostitution were decriminalized it would allow those who do care to make more conscious decisions.

  7. When sex workers write about themselves, it tends to be the more privileged women who are able to get their voices out there — women who are better-educated, who aren’t forced into prostitution, who are call-girls instead of street prostitutes, who are white, etc

    And when sex workers who aren’t middle-class, white, educated, etc. do speak or write about themselves, they’re ignored, minimized and silenced. Because most of the women writing about sex workers are awfully privileged themselves.

    It’s very easy to talk about an “out”. It’s a lot hard to answer the question “An out to what?” Because for a lot of sex workers, their alternatives aren’t so hot either. It’s not as though they had a choice between CEO of a Fortune 500 company or streetwalking.

  8. Prostitutes are exploited in exactly the same way that women are exploited, only it is a lot more obvious and extreme. As a former sex worker, I am really disturbed by the exploitation and violence that sex workers suffer, but I agree with Jill’s tentative opinion that criminalizing sex work punishes women who may or may not be there by choice. I suggest people who are interested in the topic examine the quality of life of prostitutes across cities with harsher and laxer enforcement policies. I also suggest Whores and Other Feminists for more thoughts on how sex work intersects feminism. While it’s true that privileged sex workers get to speak more of the time, geez, it’s a lot better than a few years ago where the airtime that sex workers got was just about zero. I hope that we can try to promote and help and listen to unprivileged sexworkers without blowing off all other experiences as irrelevant.

  9. I really agree with the sentiments of this post.

    You’ve got to be very careful to think about what people actually mean when they talk about ‘legalising prostitution’. It’s often used as a euphemism. The idea’s attractive, because the idea that selling sex should be illegal and we should jail women for being prositutes is horrid. It’s victimising people who are already victims. But the legalization slogan is most the time being used to push something else, like legalising pimping, which you’d be much less willing to support if people advocated it openly.

  10. The problem is that a lot of studies have found that legal prostitution and illegal prostitution go hand in hand. Where you legalise it, like in the Netherlands and Germany, the number of child prostitutes and the number of trafficked women increase. I don’t understand why this should be, and anything I read on the subject didn’t explain it. I mean, it would be great to think that the availability of decently treated, legal sex workers would drive down demand for purchasable victims to abuse. Doesn’t seem to work like that. I suspect the problem is that while some men genuinely do want to buy consensual sex, others basically want to buy rape, and legalising prostitution makes it easier for those men to get their jollies. But that’s just a guess.

    I’d love for legalisation to be a solution, but it doesn’t seem to be. Seems like the Swedish model, while very far from perfect, does a better job of protecting the people who most need protection.

  11. If it were not a form of slavery, it would not have the “badges and incidents” of slavery. In what other profession, other than Amish farmer, is it a breach of employment terms to have a car? Not to drive a car off-times – to HAVE a CAR? In what other profession does the local sheriff intervene to make sure that the worker does not enter through the white front door of a restaurant?

    Prostitution is a form of slavery for hire, in my view, and in my view should be per se illegal under the 13th Amendment. This represents a change from my basically strongly libertarian views on most issues. I would favor fining the johns severely or setting a legal minimum price/penalty compensation for such services ($5,000/hour, perhaps, plus attorneys fees on collection, non-waivable), along with civil forfeiture laws allowing for prostitutes or local prosecutors to sue pimps and houses to forfeit their assets representing either the proceeds or facilitating means of a prostitution transaction. Just like with dope now.

  12. Jill,

    Great article, great points.

    Before I make my points, I want to say that I am usually the first to complain if someone tries to make a point by just swapping out a word in a statement and then crying gotcha.

    But I do think that people could have said similar things about a lot of situations before changes came about. Back when slavery was legal, life for free blacks pretty much sucked, too, You could have made (and many did) the case that simply freeing black slaves wouldn’t automatically improve their lives.

    When women couldn’t own property, vote, or be in most professions, someone could have (and many did) made the case that simply allowing divorce for women in abusive marriages wouldn’t automatically make things all rosy for them.

    And so on. And it would have all been based on the logic of “however well-meaning your fantasy is, it doesn’t reflect the real world.” And in many ways it would have been true. In the short term. And in many ways it WAS true. For many. But times change.

    I think it is a huge fantasy for anyone to say that every aspect of prostitution would magically become solved if it was legalized and regulated. The same sleazeballs who run it now would work the system, those who entered the profession because they had nowhere else to turn would still be prey to people who use their shattered self-esteem for their own ends. And suddenly, the Christianists would inevitably declare that Jesus hated prostitutes and would never have been seen with them.

    But sometimes, the argument seems to be “since we can’t fix it all and we can’t fix it all at once, there is no reason to try to fix any of it.” And that doesn’t work for me, either. Somehow I doubt that legalizing it is going to cause huge numbers of people to suddenly dive into the profession, and that those who do will naturally gravitate to the worst parts with the worst abuses.

    True, in the medium term, or even in the long term, improving the working conditions for a sizeable proportion of the profession will allow people to look the other way at the seamy end of it — but I’m not that sure how that is different from what we have now.

    And Elaine, sure, prostitution may be illegal in Vegas, but it sure is allowed. I’m hardly an expert, so no doubt there is some enforcement, etc, but yikes! They pass out flyers on the street!

  13. So, in a nutshell: down with pimps, up with hoes!

    But, yeah, I agree being able to sell sex if you want to should be legal. And pimping should not be. That seems pretty straight forward.

  14. You really can’t articulate the difference between prostitution and massage, or prostitution and caregiving?

    Housekeeping is easy — there should be no touch between client and housekeeper. The housekeeper has bodily integrity.

    The massage therapist or the caregiver do all most all the touching (clients should not be touching the therapist or caregiver unless given permission), and also retain body integrity. In addition, both are in control of any touching that is done. We are viewed as professionals and treated as professionals.

    In prostitution, the touching is done by both client and prostitute. The prostitute is not always in control of the situation. The prostitute is generally not perceived as a professional in the same light as a nurse or massage therapist would be.

    As a nurse, if my client were to cross a boundary and (for example) grabs my breast, I can press assault charges. Do you think a prostitute could do that? I don’t.

  15. Jodie, do you really think touch is the issue? If prostitution were simply a woman giving a man oral sex, and he never touched her, would that make it ok? I don’t know, I just really don’t buy that answer.

    Other care professions involve touch, too — caring for children or the elderly, for example. Other professions involve touch that, outside of the context of that profession, would be assault — take professional boxers, for example.

    So I don’t think touch is the issue. I think sex is the issue. Which is fine, but let’s just say so. And then maybe someone can do a better job than me at explaining why sex is “different.”

  16. The biggest problem with the illegality of prostitution is that the prostitutes are the ones targeted by law enforcement, not the “johns” or the pimps. If law enforcement turned a purposeful blind eye to the criminal activity of the women sex workers and turned all of their enforcement efforts towards the criminal activity involved in soliciting prostitution (on the part of the “johns”) and conspiring to commit prostitution/aiding and abetting (on the part of the pimps), then I would support continued illegality of prostitution in at least the short term. When it becomes harder to visit prostitutes and harder to make women work when they don’t want to, women might have the ability to make more independent choices, including the choice to get out.

  17. I am personally undecided on this issue. I recently had a long conversation about the legalization of prostitution with my new brother-in-law, a police officer who worked some years on the vice squad in a poorer suburb with a significant number of street prostitutes. I was mostly pro-legalization before the conversation, but less educated than I could be and maybe didn’t make all the conventional points. He is strongly anti-legalization, and I found many of his points convincing. Here are his basic points, as I remember them:

    Legalization does very little for the prostitutes, but a lot more for the johns. Legalizing prostitution just makes it more acceptable for men to buy women’s bodies. Most of the regulations around legalized prostitution end up being designed to benefit the johns. Even the health regulations are mostly there to keep “fine upstanding men of the community” from being infected.

    Laws against prostitution are used more often against johns and pimps than against prostitutes (at least in the experience of this police officer.) The pimps are incorrigible, but diversion programs like John school have very low recidivism rates and are an effective method to reduce demand.

    To which I answered, well, why are you arresting prostitutes at all? According to him, of the (very few) women he’s helped get off the street, all of them used getting arrested as the catalyst and an opportunity (despite the fact all the women on the street know they can approach a cop at any time and be immediately whisked off to a shelter and get help). Arresting a woman is often the only way to separate her from her pimp. It gets her in contact with people who will help get her into the right programs. I’m not sure that police officers should be filling this role; it sounds like something social workers should be handling, but this is the best we have right now.

    Empirically, places that have legalized prostitution have, against the logic of those who have pushed legalization, found that illegal prostitution has increased rather than decreased. This is true both for places that are islands of legalization (Amsterdam, Germany) that could be sex-tourism destinations, and those (New Zealand, Australia) that are much less likely to have that as an explanation. For instance, the demand for young prostitutes is just so high that young girls will always be tricked/seduced/forced into prostitution, no matter how easy it is to procure legal prostitutes over the age of 18.

    Finally, in answer to the “it’s the oldest profession, and it’s not going away” argument, he responded comparing prostitution to domestic violence. Domestic violence has been around forever, and will never be solved, but we’ve done a hell of a lot, including through the legal system, to make it less acceptable, and it’s had an effect. Just because we can’t eradicate it entirely doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try.

    I’m not necessarily going to hang around this thread and defend these points, but I wanted to put them out there as part of the story.

    What he and I did agree on throughout the conversation is that the way to approach prostitution is to reduce the demand. It is wrong that prostitutes are stigmatized while johns are tolerated with a wink and a nudge. He believes that educating men on the reality of prostitution, along with increasing the social stigma of using prostitutes, will decrease demand significantly among all but a small group of men such as the true sadists.

  18. According to him, of the (very few) women he’s helped get off the street, all of them used getting arrested as the catalyst and an opportunity (despite the fact all the women on the street know they can approach a cop at any time and be immediately whisked off to a shelter and get help). Arresting a woman is often the only way to separate her from her pimp.

    Considering the situation that most street prostitutes are in, this makes perfect sense. If you yourself approach the cop, you’re putting yourself in jeopardy if anyone sees it. But if you get arrested (even “arrested”), you’ve bought yourself some extra time before your pimp starts to wonder where you are and why you didn’t come back.

  19. So I don’t think touch is the issue. I think sex is the issue. Which is fine, but let’s just say so. And then maybe someone can do a better job than me at explaining why sex is “different.”

    Because lots of men think that sex is inherently degrading for women/anyone who is penetrated by a penis? And the pleasure they experience in sex is inherently bound up with their pleasure in degrading someone, so improved working conditions for prostitutes would actually make the experience less fun for a large percentage of johns? (I am sure I’ve seen some repellent quote where a john made almost exactly this argument against legalising prostitution. something about liking the “seediness.”)

    OK, that’s part of it. But I think it’s not all. Sex is supposed to be mutual I think the reason relatively few women patronise prostitutes is that we tend to find the idea of having sex with someone who isn’t attracted to us very unpleasant. Maybe I’m wrong– but that’s definitely the main reason I can’t even imagine myself using a prostitute. The idea of having sex with someone who isn’t enjoying it, is not pleasant to me; it’s actually very distressing. I think it’s safe to say that lots of men do not have this particular ethical qualm, probably because we live in a society that trains men not to empathise with women. So the selling of sex as a service is all bound up in the idea that women’s sexual desires are irrelevant or nonexistent or whatever, which is all bound up with the thinking that some men have that makes them not even see women as people at all.

  20. And Elaine, sure, prostitution may be illegal in Vegas, but it sure is allowed. I’m hardly an expert, so no doubt there is some enforcement, etc, but yikes! They pass out flyers on the street!

    By street you mean “The Strip,” which is only one of many streets in Las Vegas. And it’s basically the place they pass out those flyers.
    And The Strip isn’t in Las Vegas. It’s in Clark County, outside of Las Vegas.
    And the flyers for prostitutes are for brothels an hour outside of Clark County. The other flyers are for strippers.

    Going to The Strip once doesn’t make you an expert on Las Vegas. People have a lot of misconceptions about what is legal and what isn’t in Vegas because they want to believe Vegas is some fantasy land without cops or laws or anything. And they’re basically only going to find out what’s not legal when they get busted.

    In some ways, it’s a lot like New Orleans. If you only visit Bourbon Street and you see all these tourists flashing their boobs for beads and all these frat boys yelling, you’re going to think New Orleans is all like that. But it’s really ONLY THE TOURISTS WHO ARE ACTING LIKE THAT. You just have to step off The Strip or off Bourbon Street and get to know some locals before you have any fucking clue about the city.

    I live in New York now and it’s not like NYC is any better than Vegas. Prostitution and sex work are EVERYWHERE.

  21. Kali, exactly. Look at comment 6:

    there is no way to be a conscious consumer of sex services; the customer doesn’t know to what extent the provider may have been coerced, whether or not they have been trafficked, how well they are treated, etc.

    Fine, that’s all true. But you do know that the provider isn’t attracted to you or aroused in any way that would make her want to do these things without being paid, and you do know that her job requires prioritizing your sexual pleasure above her own sensations of pleasure (supposing she’s having any) or physical discomfort (which you can bet she has, some of the time. Sex when you’re not aroused usually hurts, a little or a lot.) So in order to even get to the point where you’re wondering if this prostitute sees all the profits, or if she gets dental and vision benefits, you have to already know all that other stuff. And not care.

    Prostitutes are fine people. Johns are not.

  22. But sometimes, the argument seems to be “since we can’t fix it all and we can’t fix it all at once, there is no reason to try to fix any of it.”

    Has anyone actually made this argument, or is simply how you choose to perceive it? Has anyone said sexual slavery should not be ended unless you have jobs waiting for former slaves?

    This isn’t about times changing. It’s about recognizing that prostitution does not occur in a vacuum. Prostitutes (and other sex workers) do not live in a magical, egalitarian world where if they could just get away from their pimps, they could easily find equally or better-rewarding work.

    It’s about recognizing that “make it illegal” is not the end of the conversation, and it’s irresponsible to say it is.

  23. What he and I did agree on throughout the conversation is that the way to approach prostitution is to reduce the demand. It is wrong that prostitutes are stigmatized while johns are tolerated with a wink and a nudge. He believes that educating men on the reality of prostitution, along with increasing the social stigma of using prostitutes, will decrease demand significantly among all but a small group of men such as the true sadists.

    I read a recent article (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,,2165900,00.html) from the Guardian (UK) about the United Kingdom possibly prosecuting men who buy sex. At the end, they mentioned a study of men who “kerbcrawl” (British slang for seeking out a prostitute?) and it mentioned what could possibly deter them from buying sex.

    These are the results of the study:

    In a recent study by the Child and Woman Abuse Studies Unit at London Metropolitan University, researchers asked men arrested for kerbcrawling to pick from a list of factors which might deter them from buying sex. While some agreed that large fines or being publicly shamed would do so, none cited knowing that a woman was forced into prostitution.

    So, in other words men could give a shit less about the women.

  24. I’ve gone on and on and on about this over at my place here, but my feelings about decriminalizing prostitution actually boil down pretty small.

    I do think sex work should be legalized. Not because it will fix everything, or sex workers would all get social security and be totally safe all the time and men would magically respect women and unicorns would dance in the sunset. I have a lot of respect for other feminists who are anti-legal prostitution, I understand the argument and I’m sympathetic, to a large degree.

    But it just doesn’t hold up, to me. “Prostitution hurts women, so it should be illegal,” in practice as it stands now, turns into “prostitution hurts women, so the criminal justice system should have the right to lock them up.” Which doesn’t help at all. As practiced (not, clearly, as argued by anti-prostitution feminists, towards whom I have absolutely zero ill will), that slides way too quickly into – not exactly victim blaming – but victim punishing. I don’t have the faith in our criminal justice system to always be honorable. And I just can’t get behind it for that reason.

  25. I was just trying to find the right way to express my opinion, but I see that Kali did it for me. It’s the lack of mutuality, the underlying premise that women don’t have to want sex to have sex. Massage and other kinds of care-giving are by their nature one-sided, but most of us here probably have an ideal of sex as mutually satisfying.

    I think the existence of prostitution infects all of our male/female relationships somehow. For one thing, it supports the dichotomy between sexual woman and good woman. How many “good” women feel just a little bit “naughty” when they dress or behave provocatively? How many women are afraid that men will react negatively? Our natural sexual behavior was stripped from us and restricted to a separate caste, thus separating us internally from our sexual selves as well.
    The threat of being viewed as “no better than a whore” hangs over all of us. Paradoxically, men like going to prostitutes because there is no obligation to give them pleasure, but men also reject women who enjoy sex “too much.” Of course I’m talking in broad generalities here, and the latter statement would have been more true of earlier generations.
    There’s no reason to believe that prostitution is “the oldest profession.” Do anthropologists find “primitive” cultures where some of the women in the community are shunned socially and used only for sexual purposes? I doubt it.

  26. So, I’m sure someone else here knows more about this than me, but what about criminalizing the buying of sex and not selling? It recognizes the gendered power dynamics surrounding sex that we all live with, and doesn’t punish a victim, especially when coupled with social programs that help women who want out.

  27. mythago – please clarify your condescending broadside. How many law licenses do you have and where do you practice?

    Civil forfeiture is used in my state to seize the proceeds and facilitating means of CDS transactions and of most gambling transactions. I propose going after houses of prostitution that produce these types of conditions and their customers the same way. I would favor a “qui tam” type remedy also for prostituted women to do likewise, the net proceeds to go sexual health clinics, sexual assault crisis centers and battered women’s shelters, with a small percentage to go to the sex worker and her lawyer. This in addition to any other tort remedy. In Maryland, civil forfeiture is an :”in rem” action, meaning that it is an action technically against “the thing.” My Bar Exam in 1994 dealt with the civil vs. criminal distinction of this matter, derived from the English deodand, i.e. what should be given to “God” [sic] i.e. “God’s” representative the king, in cases of forfeitures of estates of the severest felons.

    Contracts of slavery are per se illegal in the United States under the 13th Amendment. I would submit that this sort of prostitution is tantamount to a slave racket, as in so called “white slavery,” and merits the same sorts of remedies actually more than do dope and slot machines. Local law enforcement and social services should be providing aid to the women, not acting as de facto back-up pimps/jailers.

    As for the minimum wage, that was plagiarism on my part from feminist anti-prostitution activists who proposed making prostitution economically unviable by shifting economic sanctions under tort theories to johns and pimps in favor of sex workers, ruining the demand side.

    Have a nice day, mythago.

  28. Jenn, that survey may have shown that punishments are poor deterrents. However, experience with john schools have shown very low recidivism rates (on the order of 5%, compared to ~50-80% with punitive prosecution). Some men like to delude themselves (and are purposefully enabled by the prostitutes themselves) into thinking they’re helping women by paying them for sex. They think of it as a “donation” and that they are special, different from the other johns. John school is designed to teach men how much prostitution really hurts women, and it seems to work.

  29. Jenn, sorry, I missed your point about not caring that the women are forced. That seems to be at odds with what I was told about john schools. I’m not sure what accounts for the discrepancy.

  30. Jill- Great take on the issue, imho. True, it’s not going anywhere. True, often times the best how to go about a solution kinds of questions are nebulous, as are the answers to those questions, and true (at least in my opinion), the first concern should be with the people forced into the sex trade, and other things can filter out in accordance to the level of need required.

    A NY Times article isn’t going to stop sex workers/prostituted women (there is a difference) from turning tricks today, tomorrow, or for the foreseeable future, neither is making it legal, wholly illegal, or decriminalized…so yes…

    what to do in the here and now, then?

  31. I’m not sure I’m hot to the idea that we need to simply accept that prostitution will exist. There’s a demand for slavery but government banning of it went a long way towards reducing the amount of it.

  32. Perhaps the best approach is to make it a labor issue, and to make illegal the unfair near-slavery conditions of these brothels the same way it would be best to improve the labor conditions in garment factories and farming. I agree that it is somewhat disingenuous to treat prostitution as “just a job like any other,” as we live in such a patriarchal and mysogynist society that a woman trying to treat it as such faces a huge entangling web of problems. But by making it legal, and then enforcing very strict labor laws w/r/t prostitution and allowing sex workers to unionize, for example, would probably improve things for everyone involved and enable more women to have more control over their own lives, whether working as prostitutes or wanting to transition safely out of that kind of work.

  33. How many law licenses do you have and where do you practice?

    And there you go again. Law licenses are not beads on an Add-A-Bead necklace. I don’t hold myself out as an expert on a subject merely because it was a bar exam question, and you shouldn’t either. Of course, if you’re a licensed attorney whose practice involves obtaining U visa relief for victims of sex trafficking, or otherwise have expertise in areas relevant to legal remedies for prostitutes, feel free to set me straight.

    I am intrigued by the notion that you favor a hybrid civil-forfeiture cause of action that a former prostitute can bring, but that she can’t personally benefit from in any significant manner; she can sue her pimp, but after she pays her attorney and covers fees and costs (that would be the “net proceeds” to which you refer), you deem her worthy of a tiny percentage, with the rest to go to women’s shelters and STD clinics.

    Wow. I’m sure that former prostitutes will be swarming law offices to file those lawsuits.

    I also learned well before law school that it’s silly and childish to say “Have a nice day” when you really mean “Fuck you”. Let it all out, man.

  34. Amanda: As long as there is a demand, someone, somewhere, some how, will see that there is a supply. Willing suppliers are preferable, but that’s not how it is currently. I tend to think the focus needs to be aimed at the unwilling suppliers first, and then when that’s taken care of (long after our bones have all turned to dust, I’d wager), then we can focus on “other issues”. In the mean time, I’m of the mind that help the unwilling out and see that anyone involved is a safe as possible. Just my opinion, no one else has to see it that way, but yep, I’m sticking to it.

  35. Strange timing, I just watched American Pimp last night.

    The sex worker problem kind of strikes me as being similar to the abortion issue with regards to morality, politics, legality, choice and pragmatism; there’s a lot of hopeful talk about the way things could or should be, but in reality it’s almost always about making the best of a bad situation.

    Other than that, I don’t really have much to add.

  36. Beg your pardon, zuzu. It’s the Los Angeles lawyers who are pretty. The rest of us have to get by on our wits alone.

  37. Amanda: Also, if prostitution is, by in large, to be considered slavery (which is the opinion of many), making it illegal has done not much to curb the industry. Likewise, making drugs and booze illegal did not do much to curb the industry, only make it more dangerous. Is there any reason to think making prostitution illegal in all of Nevada would actually, oh, cut down on prostitution, or merely make it more dangerous? Especially for the prostitutes? After all, it is illegal in Las Vegas, but there are plenty of women still working in the industry (illegally) in Sin City….

  38. Laura

    One of their studies took at look at PTSD among women in prostitution in five (and then later, updating it to nine) countries and found that PTSD among these women (even EXCLUDING women who self-identify as having been raped in prostitution) was higher than PTSD among American Vietnam War combat veterans. I think that any “profession” that produces such high rates of mental illness among its workers during the normal course of their “employment” doesn’t deserve to be “legal.”

    Laura, nothing in that study claims that prostitution produces the PTSD. As it states, “most people working as prostitutes have a history of childhood physical and sexual abuse.” It also states that “sexual and other physical violence is a frequent occurrence in adult prostitution”. So, this research does not prove or even attempt to prove that prostitution is the cause of the PTSD rates found in those who are prostitutes. There is no reason to believe that the majority of PTSD cases in prostitutes isn’t the result of the childhood abuse they’ve faced. It could also be a result of the fact that prostitutes are often victims of physical and sexual violence or some combination of all these factors.

    And why should others decide how much mental illness a job should be able to be associated with in order to be legal? What trauma ward doctors suffered from PTSD at the same rates as women who work as prostitutes? Would that mean that this profession doesn’t deserve to be “legal”?

    Given the fact that this study only included prostitutes from one area with a very small sample size–I’ve taken classes that had more than 130 people in it–these results really don’t tell us anything about prostitution in general and what most prostitutes feel they need.

  39. So I don’t think touch is the issue. I think sex is the issue. Which is fine, but let’s just say so. And then maybe someone can do a better job than me at explaining why sex is “different.”

    I think you’re absolutely right, and this is the key issue that needs to be resolved. sex is different, at least in my view, because it is seen as the self for women. for example “selling yourself” as code for prostitution. I personally think this is horrible, and I think efforts to change this have to go hand in hand with legalizing prostitution for the bad experiences to get much better. I think Tom’s point about making the best of a bad situation is probably true for most people in the sex industry, but I do agree that keeping it illegal just gives more power to the pimps and/or customers and keeps it from the women themselves.

  40. If I wanted to, I could agree to act as someone’s slave and do whatever they told me to do, take punishment for insubordination, etc and it would be perfectly legal. (And in fact, there are plenty of men and women who do this on a 24/7 basis, although it’s worth noting that their circumstances are vastly different from people who have been forced into slavery.) What’s illegal is that they can’t compel me to keep doing that or force me to be their slave in any way; they can’t legally treat me as property.

    Similarly, many people see the biggest problem with sex work in coercion, trafficking, abduction, inability to leave sex work.

    As for “the only women that talk about prostitution are white middle-class internet sex workers,” that’s rapidly becoming a popular refrain, but it is far from always true. I encourage anyone who is really interested in the voice of and advocacy for sex workers who have been on the street, who have done sex work to survive, who are poor and/or women of color, from around the world, to check out sites such as the Sex Workers’ Project, headed up by Juhu Thukral in New York City, which works to end trafficking, coercion and harassment of workers, police abuse, etc. and also supports legalization. They also put out a great documentary, Taking the Pledge, about the Bush administration’s attempts to cut funding off from organizations around the world that work with and on behalf of sex workers, in the name of “opposing prostitution.” Seriously, it’s worth reading, watching, etc.

  41. Amanda: As long as there is a demand, someone, somewhere, some how, will see that there is a supply.

    That’s my point. The demand in the U.S. for slavery has not gone down. And yet mysteriously the instances of it have. Something changed, and I do believe the law was it. I’m saying that we don’t have to be fatalistic about this.

  42. It’s an intertesting analogy prostitution and slavery. I don’t think anyone would argue that legalizing slavery helps the slaves. Currently the legal system considers the public nuisance to be prositutes appearing on the streets, rather than men assisting other men in rape for pay. Brothels are only a concern if there’s tax evasion.

    Sweden criminalised buying sex but decriminalised selling it eight years ago

    I think some John shaming/fining might be in order, along with pimps being automatically charged with kidnapping.

  43. First, Herbert has been attacking Las Vegas and I just want to clear something up: Prostitution is NOT legal in Las Vegas. And it’s highly unlikely that it will become legal any time soon. Only the small counties in Nevada that vote for it have legalized prostitution. It’s not legal all over Nevada and it’s not legal in Vegas.

    Eleanor, Herbert was reacting to the Mayor’s proposal to legalize prostitution in Las Vegas. That guy sounds like a real ass. As someone who lives in DC and gets sick and tired of people lumping the city in with the federal crowd who lord over us like a fiefdom I understand your ire over equating the Strip to the city of Las Vegas. But it seemed to me that Herbert was saying the mayor’s idea was a lousy one and he was pointing to the places where prostitution is legal in the rest of the state as an example why.

    I have a friend who runs a volunteer organization to help prostitutes get off the street. Based on her experience, I don’t think it should be legalized. Haven’t cops found it more effective to go after the johns and dry up supply? I thought law enforcement has decided going after prostitutes isn’t effective. Much like some communities have finally figured out that going after the drug buyers instead of sellers is a better way to curb drug dealing.

  44. Amanda: But with the exception of parts of Nevada and New Hampshire, Prostitution isillegal in the US. It still occurs.

  45. OK, can I ask some questions to the proponents of legalization?

    The research that’s been done on the effects of legalization shows that illegal prostitution (ie child prostitution and slavery) increase when legalization happens.

    Do you think that’s a price worth paying for the positive effects? (and given that decreasing this kind of exploitation was supposed to be one of the positive effects of legalization, are you sure the positive effects you envisage would actually happen?)

    Or do you think the research is wrong? (and if so, what are you basing that on? As far as I’ve delved in to it, there’s a consensus.)

    Or do you think that the countries that have legalized prostitution so far have just screwed up either in the concepts or the administration of it, and that it is possible to implement legalization in a way that won’t have these terrible effects? ( I would really like this to be true, but how could it be done differently?)

    Anyway, I hope I’m not coming across too demanding, as if I’m setting essay questions. It’s just that these are the questions in my head and I can sound a bit pedantic when I’m trying to sort out half-formed thoughts. And I am really hoping someone has answers to the third question.

    I kind of have a sense that this isn’t something that can be dealt with at any kind of macro-level, by government policy, and so “legalization” may be a bit of a red herring. What’s needed to help sex workers are local projects that have police co-operation. Something like how police awareness of domsetic violence has gradually been raised?

  46. Amanda: “That’s my point. The demand in the U.S. for slavery has not gone down. And yet mysteriously the instances of it have. Something changed, and I do believe the law was it. I’m saying that we don’t have to be fatalistic about this.”

    A bad analogy. The demand for slavery HAS indeed gone down, because a number of people have recognized what an atrocity it is. It’s a fairly straightforward issue — the slaves were not obtaining anything of value, and their option pool outside slavery was significant.

    On the other hand, the moral issues surrounding prostitution aren’t as clear. As Mythago and Ren have pointed out, removing the sex work option doesn’t miraculously produce an array of hitherto unavailable options. While all here, I think, believe that directly coerced prostitution/sex work, eg trafficking, should be illegal, outside of that the slave/prostitute analogy doesn’t work because the latter chooses this work. Yes, it’s many times not a “free” choice because it’s coerced by poverty.

    But making it illegal doesn’t remove the poverty. So it’s a superficial holey bandaid that makes liberals feel good but actually compounds the problem by driving the activity into the black market with less protection and less incentive or mechanism to provide it. Ultimately, it’s a solution that will allow people with privilege and blinders to cross another item jauntily off their lists. Next!

  47. Amanda, slavery is a bad analogy; and I’m not pointing that out because I disagree with your larger point. I’m roughly a “Swedish model” proponent.”

    The demand for slavery was filled by the quasi-slavery of the Jim Crow era until so late that the agricultural economy that produced the demand had largely changed. In most parts of the country, agricultural work is seasonal, and feeding and housing a workforce (even very badly) is actually more expensive than paying desperation wages to desperate people that one can simply send down the road then the work is done.

    So there is not the same demand for slavery that there was, and while there was, little had changed about slavery except the name.

    What is it about our world that will fill the place of the massive industrialization of the US in the first half of the 20th century in changing demand for prostitution? I would like the think that it would be a massive realization on the part of het men that women are not commodities. But I don’t see signs of motion in that direction. I see Joe Francis and several million other indications that this culture is more committed than ever to the idea that women’s bodies are commodities for purchase.

  48. I think the most important thing and the thing that is so rarely mentioned in debates about the legalization/decriminalization of sex work is this: Do we really trust the criminal justice system to be on the side of women, especially working class women, especially women of color, especially women that our society has marked as sexual devients? Do we really think that the legal system (and this goes x 1000 in the U.S.) has ever done more than jack shit to protect labor rights?
    For all that the ‘Swedish Model’ is held up as being the ultimate feminist response to sex work, it doesn’t look so good from the perspective of any of the hundreds of undocumented sex workers who are being deported from Sweden.
    It doesn’t seem very “radical” or even very “feminist” to rely on the same institutions that have been enemies of less priviledge people since their creation to rescue exploited women.

  49. annalouise, the criminal justice system is never on the side of sex workers. When their work is illegal, the state has more tools to use against the women. If “it will be administered by people who do not have the best interests of women as a class in mind” were a disqualifying condition, we would not have laws against rape or intimate partner violence: they, too, are almost always administered by people who are invested in patriarchy.

  50. You’re right, bint alshamsa, I misspoke. There isn’t an airtight causal pathway from prostitution to a diagnosis of PTSD. What I probably should have said is that I think studies like this become threads of a very strong argument that prostitution – with its concomitant threats of rape, torture, and murder, relationship to childhood sexual abuse, and relationship to poverty – is incredibly damaging to women and is a violation of their human rights.

    If there are other “professions” that have such high rates of mental illness associated with their “workers” than I think we should take a hard look at those, too.

    I support a partial discriminalization of prostitution, which would make it a crime for men to “purchase” women for sex.

  51. Kali:

    “The research that’s been done on the effects of legalization shows that illegal prostitution (ie child prostitution and slavery) increase when legalization happens.”

    Actually thats not really true. Research in this area has real problems. Most experts agree that most of the data collected has real problems with its methodology and is mainly junk.

    When prostitution is legailised several issues appear, the fundamental one is that you then split the industry into legal and illegal zone (for want of a better word). Much of the data ignores this distinction and so is of dubious value.

    To give two examples of this, if you say 18 is the minimum age for sex work you have created two zones one is 18+ the other is less than 18. One is legal one is illegal. If you say sex workers must have work visas then you create two more one is workers with work visa’s and one without, one legal one illegal.

    You can’t ignore this effect if you want to talk sense about legalization yet many people do.

    Also sex work and legalization cannot be separated from other factors happening in the country that is being discussed, illegal immigration is an example. Many people have made the case that the Swedish model is essential anti-foreigner legislation rather than social legislation because the Swedes are suffering a very high level of illegal immigration at the moment.

    Australia is general given as an example of the above result of legalization of brothels however Australia is a destination country for a high level of illegal immigration, those sex workers cannot work in the legal sector and hence gravitate to the illegal sector. The Netherlands is another example of this effect.

    “Do you think that’s a price worth paying for the positive effects?”

    Where its been done there is indications that its worthwhile however some examples are more successful than others.

    The data suggests that when you legalize two effect occur in the legal zone. One is that you destroy pimps power, the sex workers dont need them the clients don’t need them they fade away. That effect all by itself would from my point of view be worthwhile. The other is that the sex workers gain more power, if they can move whenever they like they can play the brothel owners off against one another and get better conditions etc. In some cases legalization has resulted in sex workers running brothels for them selves no third parties at all. Note that this only occurs in the legal zone not the illegal one.

    There is however problems with some of the legalization which clouds things. In Australia for example the legalization is very confining and prescriptive, which means that some sex workers that could work in the legal sector chose to work in the illegal sector instead because the can make more money or because of some condition that they do not wish to conform with in the legal one.

    With with so much of the data being junk its really hard to discern what is actually happening.

    Sb

  52. Laura: Cops, Firemen, Soldiers, Air Traffic Controllers…many of them end up stressed out, having breakdowns, or other mental issues. Just saying.

  53. I support a partial discriminalization of prostitution, which would make it a crime for men to “purchase” women for sex.

    For those who see the term thrown around, this is, in concept, the Swedish model.

  54. As for “the only women that talk about prostitution are white middle-class internet sex workers,” that’s rapidly becoming a popular refrain, but it is far from always true. I

    Oh certainly. And to be clear, I didn’t mean this as an insult. As I said in the post, it’s the natural outcome of a system which privileges certain voices. I mean, look at which feminist bloggers are getting book deals. It isn’t that they don’t deserve it, or that their experiences aren’t valid, or that they “only” got it because they’re white and middle-class. They’re talented and interesting and have a lot of great things to say, and their views are valid. But, like in any other area, the voices of the least powerful are muted. That’s all I meant.

  55. That’s my point. The demand in the U.S. for slavery has not gone down. And yet mysteriously the instances of it have. Something changed, and I do believe the law was it. I’m saying that we don’t have to be fatalistic about this.

    Well, right. The demand still exists — now someone is getting paid what slaves used to do for free. I don’t think that’s a great comparison to prostitution.

  56. In answer to Comment No 10:

    “why do clients frequent illegal rather than just illegal brothels”

    The Netherlands did some research into this and discovered that the illegal brothels do a very good job at pretending that they are legal. Certs on the walls, sign’s drink licenses etc.

    None of the staff or the women ever tell the clients that the whole deal is unlicensed.

    IIRC one study that interviewed clients of one illegal place found that 80% of them thought it was a legal establishment.

    A large percentage of them did not realise that there were legal and illegal brothels, they worked on the premises that if the cops had not shut it down it must be legal.

    The Netherlands was looking at having a sign for brothels like you get 3Star signs for hotels. I don’t know how far that got, i guess a problem would be if the crooks started copying the signs.

    A bigger question would be if the illegal brothels were not hidden why were the cops not shutting them down? Were the cops fooled as well or bought off?

    Sb

  57. A bigger question would be if the illegal brothels were not hidden why were the cops not shutting them down? Were the cops fooled as well or bought off?

    Or maybe they don’t care, or even use them themselves.

  58. That’s my point. The demand in the U.S. for slavery has not gone down. And yet mysteriously the instances of it have. Something changed, and I do believe the law was it.

    True. We have illegal immigrants doing that kind of work now.

  59. It’s pretty funny reading that police are going to do anything to help prostitutes. One time I knew a prostitute personally. Between prostitution and dancing in a strip club, she made a ton of money, most of which she spent on a drug habit. According to what she told me, the very worst of the men she had to deal with, far worse than the regular “johns,” worse even than drug dealers, were the local vice cops. They’d screw her first and then pull out a badge. Not only would they not pay her but they’d also steal any money she had on her, and there wasn’t a damn thing she could do about it, because they threatened to arrest her if she complained.

  60. The sex work activists I know who are dealing with exactly the kind of problem that W. Kiernan describes, all the time, are in favor of decriminalization of prostitution (a la the Swedish model, I don’t know what they think of Netherlands-style regulation) precisely because practically all interactions between sex workers and the criminal justice system are extremely abusive. Sex workers are treated like human shit who have forfeited most or all of their rights, certainly their right to be treated decently, because they’ve taken money for sex. At this point, based on what I’ve been told I feel fairly safe saying that there is no good reason why cops should be arresting and courts prosecuting women who are engaged in sex work. The outcome is so uniformly bad, ineffective, largely unnecessary.

    Furthermore, the police are reported to be (unsurprisingly) totally unsympathetic to problems facing sex workers such as being abused by customers or pimps, all sorts of other problems they face, etc. The resources that are going towards vice — and I have no idea if lou is correct that it’s been decided that this isn’t effective — ought to be going towards solving the much worse (and possibly more difficult) problems of human trafficking and being coerced into sex work. And of course, all of our resources in general, far more of them, need to be going towards changing the material conditions of women’s lives who find that they have little alternative other than sex work, so that they have more life choices.

  61. if they can move whenever they like they can play the brothel owners off against one another and get better conditions etc.

    That’s actually one of the problems with Nevada’s Brothel system. The women have to go through a somewhat annoying process to register as legal prostitutes, and have to redo it if they switch brothels.

  62. That’s actually one of the problems with Nevada’s Brothel system

    Ah I bet they have a bonding system as well, I did wonder why the women in the stories about the Nevada brothels did not just move, its because they are pinned by the bonds and regulations.

    The NZ brothels used to do the same with bonds but the 2003 changes killed them off and the workforce is now very mobile, boss upsets you or fines you for being late – you just make a few phone calls and start a different place the following night.

    Sb

  63. Re: swedish model. I just want to point out the obvious:

    The results of the Google search ‘stockholm escort‘.

    Have a look at what Mimmi or Wanda are selling. This is how well your beloved “swedish model” is actually working. Maybe less prostitutes on the street – indoor prostitution is untouched. – Just the same as prostitution enforcement in most cities of the US of A. –

    Many of you seem to be missing the obvious.

  64. Arriving late to this thread (too busy dealing with prostitution this, prostitution that, and prostitution the other damned thing on my own blog), but I just wanted to say with regard to this from Amanda Marcotte:

    I’m not sure I’m hot to the idea that we need to simply accept that prostitution will exist. There’s a demand for slavery but government banning of it went a long way towards reducing the amount of it.

    You made me cheer out loud. Way to nail it in a nice, economic sequence of words.

  65. this is a genuinely interesting discussion. because i am not sure there’s an answer. all the instances of legalising prostitution have less than appealing outcomes.

    as for ‘world’s oldest profession’, that is murder, not prostitution.

    as some have obliquely noted, demand can be created by a surfeit of supply. the references to slavery still hold in that instance, very very unfortunately.

    honestly, the things that would reduce prostitution DEMAND are not things that people involved in the various sides of this debate currently want to support. certainly, participating in the sex industry is not going to reduce demand for the very women who’d love to be rid of the work. but the cult of individualism uber alles precludes *that* particular discussion from occurring.

    this is such a huge question, and there are answers, but they involve radical social changes that are not likely to occur. which is why i feel the problem doesn’t quite have an answer.

    i kinda feel like it should be broken down into smaller chunks, because there is just so much to unpack.

    find alternate work– great ideal, it’s what i suggest to any girl in sexwork or wanting to leave it. but what to do about the overarching culture that tells a woman her worth is the guys who find her sexy, no matter what job she holds? what to do about the cultures where sexual hypocrisy is the order of the day, rather than the actual words of the religious texts used to justify said hypocrisy? what to do about the damned allure of getting money FROM men without having to COMPETE WITH them?

    and this comment– hah, comment!– is just the least little bit of unpacking. there is so much more to unfold from your opening question.

    it is rare enough to even ask, though, and i am surprised in a good way to see the question even thrown out there.

  66. Five years after prostitution law was reformed in New Zealand (2003), a panel is now working on an assessment of what has been achieved and what has not. The New Zealand Prostitutes Collective has three voices on the eleven person panel – or group – whatever it’s being called. The collective had significant input into the reform process to begin with, and the reform found support from many women’s groups – including a women’s refuge in a major city. So – in 2003 prostitution was decriminalised, which is not the same as ‘legalised’ – where restrictions still apply and there is still room for abuse by the law enforcers. The results of the assessment will be made public, so it’s something to keep an eye out for, later this year or in 2008.

    I support de-criminalisation for a number of reasons, but I guess for now I’d just like to ask how those of you who support the Swedish model believe it is in any way helpful towards de-stigmatising sex work, or even sexuality itself? Do you take the view that purchasing sexual services perse can be defined as violence against women? (This is the rationale behind the Swedish law – I don’t think it even mentions men or transgendered persons.) That is – do you believe that the only appropriate context for human sexual activity forever and a day is non-commercial? If so – why?

    I believe the trafficking of people into situations of sex slavery, and all the other exploitation and abuse that occurs around sex work are seperate issues from the above and should be approached and dealt with as such. They belong with the same crimes and abuses as they occur in other industries except in other industries it’s without the actual instance of multiple rape, which is what is occurring when people are coerced into sex work. I think de-criminalisation and de-stigmatisation of sex work offers the best possible scenario in which to detect illegal operators – partially by the creation of an atmosphere of co-operation between authorities and legal sex workers and businesses. It must be possible to place the onus on customers too – to check out the legal status of the service providers, and be open to prosecution where they knowingly purchase sexual services from illegal or co-erced workers. If New Zealand is yet to achieve any of this, they should be working towards it, rather than reverting to old practices, or adopting the Swedish model which is wrong in my view simply *because* it defines prostitution as violence against women perse. That’s a debatable ideological position, not a fact.

  67. cicely, I don’t believe that decriminalization reduces the stigma of sex work. That is not the result we see in the brothel counties of Nevada, for example. And I believe that the availability of women’s bodies for purchase fuels the demand, so that decriminalization increases rather than decreases the black market and trafficking. I do not think that the Swedish model will have the magic impact of eliminating prostitution. At best, I think it might result in a slight reduction. More likely, I think it will not result in any change to frequency but will reduce the leverage that prostitutes have in dealing with both the criminal justice system and other parts of the establishment.

  68. The women are expected to live in the brothels and to work 12- to 14-hour shifts. Mary, a prostitute in a legal brothel for three years, outlines the restrictions. “You are not allowed to have your own car,” she notes. “It’s like [the pimp’s] own little police state.”

    Sex workers are treated like human shit who have forfeited most or all of their rights, certainly their right to be treated decently, because they’ve taken money for sex.

    I think that these two elements are part of the same problem. It isn’t the legalization that is going to help this issue. It is the treatment of the workers in the then-legal establishment that is the problem. If women who perform the legal service of pleasuring men (it is primarily men) for money are still treated like shit, then it doesn’t matter that prostitution is legal. When brothels can safely ignore their rights as workers with, not only impunity but with the active assistance of law enforcement not enforcing laws against exploitation, then we haven’t gotten very far.

    Look at it this way. Unions are legal in this country and worker safety even has a government department. But you still get crap like the Utah and Virginia (?) mining disasters, you still get large corporations defunding pensions, you still get workers in every profession treated like shit and gouged by their employers. Simply making something legal doesn’t mean you’re going to change attitudes towards it.

    In case it isn’t clear, I’m for legalization of prostitution. Only then, can there be any hope of worker’s rights being enforced, even if under the current maladministration those rights are most often “honor’d more in the breach than in the observance.”

  69. But, like in any other area, the voices of the least powerful are muted.

    Yes. And it cuts both ways. I can tell you from experience that sex workers from working-class or poor backgrounds are not terribly interested in listening to earnest “you must have been raped as a child and you’re messed up and you need to STOP NOW!” lectures from college-educated, privilege white women.

    On the slavery metaphor, please recall that it was not illegal to BE a slave, or to work on a plantation or in a field as a slave. Sex workers don’t have much of an incentive to ‘get out’ if the alternative is trying to find a worse-paying, shitty straight job, and doing so with a criminal record saying you’re a prostitute.

  70. Apologies for the layout. Computer problems…

    Thomas, TSID Says:
    September 14th, 2007 at 10:18 am
    cicely, I don’t believe that decriminalization reduces the stigma of sex work. That is not
    the result we see in the brothel counties of Nevada, for example.

    I wouldn’t expect the effect to be immediate. There’s one hell of a lot of history to overcome. What I’m suggesting though is that decriminalisation is the only approach that
    even opens the door to people understanding that sex workers are people like everyone
    else, who go to work like everyone else, have relationships and families – whole private
    lives – like everyone else and deserve the same considerations, rights and respect as
    everyone else. Red light districts, police control (and abuse) – which who doesn’t know
    about? – and obviously complete criminalisation can’t possibly open that door. Wouldn’t
    you agree?

    And I believe that the availability of women’s bodies for purchase fuels the demand,
    so that decriminalization increases rather than decreases the black market and trafficking.

    You write ‘the availability of women’s bodies for purchase’ as though prostitutes are the
    only people who use their bodies in service to others for money. It’s the precise parts of
    their bodies and that it’s sex that’s really the problem isn’t it? You have to think about and
    discuss the meanings of that and appreciate that there are alternative perspectives to
    yours – held, most importantly, by people who have actually chosen to do the work of
    which we speak, very often when there are other employment options available. (This is
    true for poor women who aren’t completely coerced by poverty as well as for better off
    women.)

    With regard to any increase in black market or illegal sex work as a result of
    decriminalisation, as I wrote above, I think that needs to be addressed and dealt with for
    what it actually is. Maybe the strategies to make a dent haven’t been come up with yet in
    New Zealand (and maybe some have…) but, as Stockholm Syndrome’s link demonstrates,
    the Swedish model hasn’t done a lot either. I’ve read elsewhere that sex workers are
    travelling to Norway to work or they’ve got off the streets and gone underground,
    compromising their safety to protect their clients – their source of income – from the law.
    I doubt that the type of men who already feel contempt for the women who provide
    sexual services they use are feeling more kindly disposed towards those women as a
    result of this law either.

  71. Thomas, TSID Says:
    September 14th, 2007 at 10:18 am
    cicely, I don’t believe that decriminalisation reduces the stigma of sex work. That is not the result we see in the brothel counties of Nevada, for example.

    I wouldn’t expect the effect to be immediate. It’s a process. We’ve got a hell of a lot of history to overcome. What I’m suggesting though is that decriminalisation is the only approach that even opens the door to people understanding that sex workers are people like everyone else, who go to work like everyone else, have relationships and families – whole private lives – and deserve the same considerations, rights and respect as everyone else. Red light districts, police control (and abuse – which – who doesn’t know about?) and obviously complete criminalisation can’t possibly open that door. Wouldn’t you agree?

    And I believe that the availability of women’s bodies for purchase fuels the demand, so that decriminalisation increases rather than decreases the black market and trafficking.

    You write ‘the availability of women’s bodies for purchase’ as though sex workers are the only people who use their bodies in service to others for money. It’s the precise parts of their bodies and that it’s sex that’s really the problem isn’t it? You have to appreciate that there are alternative perspectives to yours – held, most importantly, by people who have actually chosen to do the work of which we speak, very often when there are other employment options available. This is true for poor women who aren’t completely stricken and coerced by poverty as well as for better off women.

    With regard to any increase in black market and trafficking as a result of decriminalisation, as I wrote above, I think these need to be addressed as the issues they actually are. Maybe strategies to make a dent haven’t been come up with yet in New Zealand (and maybe some have…) but, as Stockholm Syndrome’s link demonstrates, the Swedish model hasn’t done a lot either. I’ve read elsewhere that sex workers are travelling to Norway to work or they’ve got off the streets and gone underground, using the internet and mobile phones, compromising their safety to protect their clients – their source of income – from the law. I doubt the type of men who already feel contempt for the women who provide the sexual services they use are feeling more kindly disposed towards those women as a result of this law either.

  72. Maybe the strategies to make a dent haven’t been come up with yet in New Zealand (and maybe some have…)

    As far as I am aware the predicted increase in illegal sex work in New Zealand did not occur with the law changes in 2003. ( for example the number of brothels in Auckland seems to have decreased and the number of sex workers remained the same) This prediction was made based on what happened in Australia.

    I feel that this can be linked to the fact that New Zealand is not a destination country for traffickers unlike Australia which is.

    An example of how issues with prostitution cannot be dealt with in isolation from other factors.

    Sb

  73. Wow. Jill, I appreciate your thought process and your general sentiment. But reading your post (and most of the replies) it becomes obvious that this is all theory about a “them” that you (and many of the commenters) have no direct experience of. A 16 year old runaway working in a NV brothel? Do you know how many background checks you have to get for your NV hooker liscence? And pimps. You know, in over a decade as a stripper and occasional dominatrix, tantrika, or handjob artist, I just a couple months ago met a woman with a pimp for the first time. Not that it isn’t out there, but I bet that on the whole the proportion of women in the sex industry being abused by pimps is lower than the proportion of women in marriages who are abused by their husbands.

  74. As far as I am aware the predicted increase in illegal sex work in New Zealand did not occur with the law changes in 2003. ( for example the number of brothels in Auckland seems to have decreased and the number of sex workers remained the same) This prediction was made based on what happened in Australia.

    I feel that this can be linked to the fact that New Zealand is not a destination country for traffickers unlike Australia which is.

    An example of how issues with prostitution cannot be dealt with in isolation from other factors.

    That’s true. I wonder why NZ isn’t a destination country for traffickers? It must be a question of scale because I know it has definitely occurred. There was a campaign to help Asian women escape and be returned to their home countries where women’s support groups received them. (I would have to check, but I’m pretty sure this was a government sponsored or supported thing.) Pamphlets were posted around the known areas of activity, written in appropriate languages and with a freecall phone number. I really do think that with a bit of imagination and co-operation between authorities, sex workers and clients who wouldn’t themselves knowingly purchase sexual services from a woman who’d been trafficked or otherwise coerced could achieve quite a bit. Of course that could only happen where prostitution is decriminalised.

  75. But something about sex work is… different. I’m not quite able to articulate what that difference is.

    You articulated some of it, but I just think the difference is epitomized by the fact that most prostitutes won’t kiss their customers–that’s just going too far.

    I like the Swedish model as a start, but agree with the Communists: Prostitution is a symptom of the patriarchy; when we rid the earth of that (and we will, eventually) prostitution will be a distant memory. In the meantime, cracking down on sex slavery and helping as many women as we can who feel trapped to escape to better lives will have to do.

  76. I wonder why NZ isn’t a destination country for traffickers?

    NZ has some of the toughest anti-trafficking legislation in the world and if you look at where NZ is in relation to origin point for trafficked people there are a lot of easier places to traffic to.

    There have been successful prosecutions for trafficking.

    There was a campaign to help Asian women escape

    However despite the rumours of hordes of women wanting to leave that campaign produces exactly two women wanting to return home. That assumes that we are thinking of the same campaign and I have only heard on one.

    Sb

  77. You articulated some of it, but I just think the difference is epitomized by the fact that most prostitutes won’t kiss their customers–that’s just going too far.

    If you read popular review boards like aspd.net and the erotic review, you’ll find that most prostitutes DO kiss their customers – it’s not going too far. If your theories are going to be based on old movies, the media, and other theories that were made up by people who were also removed from the reality of what they were theorising about, what’s the point?

  78. However despite the rumours of hordes of women wanting to leave that campaign produces exactly two women wanting to return home. That assumes that we are thinking of the same campaign and I have only heard on one.

    sb – I hope I didn’t create or add to an existing impression I was unaware of that there were hordes – I didn’t mean to. I was only meaning to point out one strategy I’d read of.

    Good to hear there have been convictions for trafficking too.

    Are you in NZ? I’m from there but live in Australia. I went to see the movie ‘The Jammed’ the other night. It’s an Oz made movie about trafficked sex workers in Oz – fiction, but based on reality, including trial transcripts. The rescued women here in Oz, having been rescued, got to go where? To a detention centre for illegal immigrants! This is true. Two trafficked sex workers actually died in a detention centre in 2002 or 2003 I think – from memory. It was an onscreen postscript at the end of the movie. Powerful film, and I hope a lot of people see it.

  79. I hope I didn’t create or add to an existing impression…….

    No not you, my comment was because just before the campaign happened the press was full of right wing politicians and wannabe politicians going on about hundreds and hundreds of asian women being forced into prostitution in New Zealand. After the results came in they have been very quiet about that, instead they now go on about the number of underage sex workers. (despite a similar lack of evidence)

    Are you in NZ? I’m from there but live in Australia

    Yes Auckland NZ, I had noticed from your posts that you had a wider knowledge of how the adult industry it works out here than most.

    I will look out for that movie, horrible how the women were treated but unfortunately I am not that surprised

    Sb

  80. If you read popular review boards like aspd.net and the erotic review

    Weirdly enough, I don’t.

    If your theories are going to be based on old movies, the media, and other theories that were made up by people who were also removed from the reality of what they were theorising about, what’s the point?

    Actually, my comment was based on the last book I read on the subject, Indecent

    and this article, which quoted a current sex worker:

    By my estimate about half of the men who actually go back with a girl wind up leaving because they are unwilling to reach an agreement. Often though, the deal-breaker isn’t money but the customer wanting an activity that is either banned by law (oral sex without a condom, for example) or something that the girls refuse to do, according to Eden: “For most girls it’s: no kissing on the mouth, no fingering, and don’t bite me.”

    I read that article in the LA Times (or LA Weekly, I forget which) not that long ago. It’s pretty good, and by the Times’ current blogger on Vegas..

  81. The problem with legalizing prostitution is that it is impossible to regulate. Nevada just turns it all over to the brothel owner and the local sheriff. The brothel owner becomes the pimp and can set up his own rules.

    They tried it in Amsterdam, they tried it in Sweden, they tried it in Germany. It didn’t work and they are all changing their laws.

    To truly regulate prostitution you need a cop in every bedroom – doing a condom check and making sure there’s no abuse. And you can bet the johns would not like that one bit.

    There is no humane way to legalize and regulate the selling of human beings for the sexual gratifcation of others.

  82. Weirdly enough, I don’t.

    Well, weirdly enough, if you don’t keep up with the industry you’re critiqueing, your critique is going to be a little off.

    Actually, my comment was based on the last book I read on the subject, Indecent…and this article, which quoted a current sex worker:

    Yeah. There’s a ton of information out there about us, and a lot of it’s different. There are studies proving that strippers all have exhibitionist personality disorders, and stides proving that we aren’t even exhibitionists. And of course, you can find strippers or whores to support almost any point of view, because we’re all different people. Sure, there are prostitutes who don’t kiss. I used to be a prostitute who didn’t do blow jobs. That’s one of the handy things about sex work – you can pretty much decide what you do and don’t want to do, often from moment to moment. But if you were to look at what the majority of prostitutes do (which, as I said, if you don’t know a lot of prostitutes, you can look on the popular review boards) you would see that most prostitutes do kiss their clients.

  83. Well, weirdly enough, if you don’t keep up with the industry you’re critiqueing, your critique is going to be a little off.

    I wasn’t “critiquing” the “industry” (with that comment) but trying to identify an element that might help Jill figure out why sex work seems different from, say, contracting out the housework.

  84. That’s one of the handy things about sex work – you can pretty much decide what you do and don’t want to do

    HAH! Maybe in some elitest fantasy world. In real life you do what the john says or you get the crap beat out of you. How many actual prostitutes do you know, honey?

  85. In the legal brothels it’s about 50/50 whether the girls allow kissing. Out in the wild, it varies, but if your pimp is mean enough, you kiss when the john says kiss.

  86. Dear Hobo Stripper, if you are really a prostitute that doesn’t do blow jobs, then you are one broke ass, hungry prostitute. Any one of us can steal that john right away from you babycakes.

    I don’t know what kind of mind bending white elitist better than thou super whore crack you are on here, but in my world, EVERYBODY gives a blow job. It’s like hooker 101 baby! No blow job, no money.

    Where do yo work anyways?

  87. oooooh yay, someone at feministe actually gives a ‘fuck’ about prostitution…. but of course the article’s gotta be written by some white dude to get any attention here.

    Yeah, my jaundiced eyes and spouting venom are the crappers, but I don’t particularly care to hide the fact that I don’t like feministe.

    whatever…..

  88. Sorry you don’t like it, Aradhana. I’d honestly be interested in hearing why — we are always trying to be better, and I certainly won’t claim that we’re anywhere near perfect. I write about what I want to write about when it strikes me. I admittedly stick to mainstream sources like the New York Times, largely because my time is limited (law school and all). I know I don’t do a great job of including a wide variety of voices, but I do make an effort, and I am trying to be better every day. And the nice thing about the internets is that if you don’t like us, there are lots of other places you can go.

    We have written about prostitution before, btw. And just to be clear, none of the quoted articles in this post were written by white dudes.

  89. I just wanted to point out that there will be a response to Melissa Farley and Bob Herbert over on the sex worker’s rights blog, Bound Not Gagged, which will be having a blog-in on the subject Monday night 9/17, starting at 6 PM EST. More info here.

  90. Dear Hobo Stripper, if you are really a prostitute that doesn’t do blow jobs, then you are one broke ass, hungry prostitute. Any one of us can steal that john right away from you babycakes.

    Well, possibly you could, but I doubt you and I have ever advertised in the same arena. And I said was, not am.

    Where do yo work anyways?

    I’m a stripper now. There’s actually a complete listing of clubs I’ve worked in on my blog today, as part of a stripper meme.

    In the legal brothels it’s about 50/50 whether the girls allow kissing. Out in the wild, it varies, but if your pimp is mean enough, you kiss when the john says kiss.

    Why do you think you need a pimp, honey? Obviously you have access to the internet and you’re literate. That’s all you need to find your own customers, screen them how you’d like, and not have to give all your money to some guy. I’m sure you know this, though, so why would you choose to have a pimp?

  91. Correct me if I am wrong, but several of the “restrictions” that are mentioned regarding the working conditions of the prostitutes are imposed by the government through the regulations enacted in each county (as opposed to the brothels themselves imposing them). For example, the requirement that they remain in the brothel and not leave for their entire shift is a function of the regulations in those places where that is enforced.

    Not to minimize the situation as it is described in the article, but it gives the impression that the brothels are the ones who are imposing all of these restrictions when it is just as much the conditions of the legalization that cause the identified problems as it is the brothel operators.

  92. Yes Auckland NZ…

    Home for me 1975 – 1989. Grew up in Porirua, north of Wellington. Claim to fame? Began my out lesbian life in the same infamous Wellington pub as Geogina Beyer – the now gone Royal Oak Hotel – at about the same time. That ages me. Now there’s an ex stripper, ex prostitute transwoman who went places… she revealed her past before anyone could come out of left field and accuse her of it, and still got voted into parliament by a white, rural and conservative electorate. Gotta be proud of all the ‘Firsts’ out of that little country! (Not that it doesn’t have its share of conservatives…) I think NZ is still the only whole country to have completely decriminalised prostitution. I could be wrong, but no-one has corrected me on that yet when I’ve asked. I ive in Western Australia where the labor (Oz spelling) state government is currently planning to decriminalise.

Comments are currently closed.