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Drive-by puppy-mommying

Over at Feministing Jessica is under fire for buying her dog from a breeder. I’ve been following the thread since yesterday and was planning to write about it, but it looks like Zuzu beat me to it.

But I’ll add a few things. First, I think it’s important to emphasize the fact that I’m very sympathetic to the animal rights cause. I was a vegetarian for eleven years. As a kid, I wrote letters to Proctor & Gamble protesting their animal-testing policies. I make an effort to buy cruelty-free make-up and other beauty products (although I’m aware that the ingredients used to make those products are often tested on animals, even if the products themselves aren’t). I support stricter animal abuse laws, no-kill shelters, and more regulation of the meat and factory farming industries. My childhood dog (who we got from a friend who had to give him up, not a breeder) was a member of my family, and I still get teary-eyed when I talk about him. I absolutely adore my current dog (who we did get from a private breeder, and who lives in Seattle with my mom), and I desperately want to adopt a dog in New York — but because I know I can’t be a good pet owner right now, I haven’t. I have serious issues with, to borrow Carol Adam’s title, the sexual politics of meat (a book sent to me by fellow animal-lover Hugo). Feminism and animal rights do intersect, particularly in terms of the cultural mythology of meat — that is, the masculization of meat-eating, the feminization of vegetarianism, and the imaging of the female body as meat and a product for consumption. These issues matter, and it’s good to discuss them. But the way we discuss them matters too, and I don’t think that the appropriate place to bring them up is in a thread where a feminist blogger posts a cute video of her puppy. Commenters on that thread argued that the weren’t judging Jessica, but were simply criticizing a choice that Jessica made. But I think we all know it’s not that simple, and that separating the choices people make from the people themselves can be tricky business.

When we’re talking about animal rights, ethics and morals are going to play into the conversation, so I’ll put my animal-related moral code out there so that everyone knows where I’m coming from from the get-go. I believe that human beings have a responsibility to take care of ourselves and other animals to the best of our ability. I do not believe, however, that animals are people, too. We have an obligation to treat non-human animals with kindness, to not abuse them, to not subject them to unnecessary pain and suffering. However, I do believe that humans have greater rights than non-human animals. I don’t think that eating meat is morally wrong; I do, however, thing there are serious moral wrongs happening in the meat industry. I don’t think that having a pet is morally wrong; I do, however, think that there are serious moral wrongs happening in the animal-breeding industry. I can understand the argument against consuming animal products, and I do find meat-eating troubling to an extent, even though I do it. And I can understand the arguments against adopting pets from shelters instead of buying them from breeders, even if I think the way they were thrown at Jessica were really offensive and inappropriate.

What I can’t understand are comments like this:

My assumption: animals are not the property of humans to be bought and sold like slaves for our pleasure. They are other nations, to be respected and treated with dignity. Humans are responsible for cat and dog overpopulation, therefor we are responsible for caring for those animals that need care, the ones in shelters. There is absolutely no need to breed animals for profit, be them for pets or meat. It’s slavery and it’s wrong.


I like Elaine’s writing, and I have a lot of respect for her as a feminist and as a writer. But these kinds of statements, which are too often made by attention-hungry animal-rights groups like PETA (and, notably, by attention-hungry anti-choice groups, only about abortion being a new Holocaust), are offensive on so many levels that I don’t know where to start. Except it only gets worse:

Regarding Zuzu’s comments about slavery: Only people who think their lives are more important than non-human animals’ lives can be offended by the comparison of human slavery to animal slavery. The definition of slavery is to treat another as property. Property is the essential concept of slavery. Property. The only way you can be offended is if you think it’s OK to treat non-human animals as property.

She’s right: It is only offensive when you think that a human life matters more than the life of a cat or a dog or a cow or a fish. I think it does — absolutely, without question. I love my dogs, but I’d pick my sister over them every time. Hell, I’d pick a human stranger over them simply because a human stranger is human, even though I think of my dogs as family and the closest thing that there is to human.

But, just like with anti-choicers who claim that a fertilized egg is the equivalent of a three-year-old child, there’s a major disconnect between the stated view and the practices that follow. Anti-choicers — except for the totally insane ones who are, to their credit, consistent — will always lose with the “how much time should she do?” question, because they’re hesitant to jail or execute women for having abortions, despite the fact that if a fetus is a person, then abortion is the same thing as paying someone to assassinate your child (or at least, they’re hesitant to admit their support for jailing or executing women, because they realize it’s an unpopular position). The animal rights activists who essentially claim that animals are people, too (or that animal lives are morally equivalent to human lives) also suffer from some serious theoretical disconnects. One of the most glaring (and the most feminism-related) is the bodily autonomy right. It’s a core feminist principle, but one that animal rights activists have a difficult time navigating beyond “meat is murder.”

Case in point: Spaying and neutering pets. I’m for it. As the animal rights commenters on the Feministing thread rightly pointed out, there are millions of dogs and cats who are homeless or in shelters. There are simply too many pets who need homes. I don’t know how they all feel about this, but I think it’s fairly safe to assume that the mainstream pro-animal-rights position is in favor of spaying and neutering dogs and cats.

I would be floored if someone suggested that the solution to poverty and homelessness was to sterilize human beings.

Of course, some people have suggested that we sterilize humans without their consent, and some have done it — and we rightly accuse them of moral wrong-doing. Women of color and disabled people have been particularly targeted, and have had their reproductive rights stripped away by people who deem them unfit to produce. But I think feminists today are fairly consistent in the idea that reproductive autonomy is key, and taking away that autonomy is paternalistic and wrong. (I’ll point out here that coercive sterilization practices continue even today — just something for feminists to look out for).

Yet we take bodily autonomy and reproductive rights away from animals because it is, in our opinion, what’s best for them, and for society as a whole. Now, animals can’t speak or communicate their reproductive desires, so perhaps male dogs really do want their balls cut off and female cats never want to have kittens. But we don’t know that. We make that decision for them because they aren’t people. There are people who are unable to communicate their desires because of age or disability or any combination of things — and I suspect that most feminists would oppose measures to sterilize them without their consent, simply because society has decided that it’s “better” to not have any more of those kinds of children. But when we sterilize animals, I would argue that it’s a moral good. The species difference matters. I’m not kept up at night worrying about the violation of bodily integrity that my family has inflicted on our dogs.

There’s a huge difference, of course, between spaying an animal and eating an animal. But my point is that arguments like this are going to back you into a corner. And those PETA ads? Not subversive at all, unless you think Axe ads are also subversive. They’re just racist. And anti-Semitic. And misogynist. And generally hateful, overblown, and thoroughly disgusting. Pro-choicers and feminists have rightly denounced anti-choice campaigns that compare abortion to the Holocaust. I wonder, how does one justify criticism of the anti-choice Holocaust imagery while still supporting the PETA slavery/holocaust ads? Is it ok to co-opt images of the greatest cruelties and the worst of sufferings only so long as you use them in support of a position you agree with?

And so we get back to Jessica and her breeder-born dog. I’m sympathetic to the argument that there are millions of pets who need homes, and buying from a breeder denies those animals a chance at a better life. But I also understand the desire for a particular breed, and the fact that getting a dog from a shelter can be a crapshoot (and yes, getting a dog from a breeder can be a crapshoot too). Sure, they can test the dog for behavioral issues, but the way that the dog behaves in a shelter situation may not be how it behaves once you bring it home. Most reputable shelters will let you bring the dog back if it doesn’t work out, but I can guarantee you that if I had a child in my home, I wouldn’t be bringing dogs home for a test-drive — I’d pick the safest, most gentle-tempered breed available and I’d search that dog’s genetic history for any traces of family aggression and I’d either get it as a puppy so that I could train it myself, or get it as a trained adult from someone I knew and trusted. You don’t take chances with that.

Even in my casual perusal of shelter websites, I have a hard time finding dogs that would fit into my lifestyle. I live in a small New York apartment. I don’t have the time or the ability or the space to let a dog run around a lot. If I were to own a dog, it would have to be very small and it would have to be relatively quiet. It would also have to have short hair, since I have some pet allergies. It would have to be friendly (can’t have it fighting with other dogs in the park) and it would have to be relatively independent and not freak out if I was gone all day. That knocks out a whole lot of shelter dogs right there. Then there are breed-related characteristics that I know would work with my personality and my lifestyle better than others. It’s hard to get that from a shelter dog. Shelters also sometimes have ridiculous rules for adopting their animals. A former room mate of mine ended up going upstate to adopt her cat, because NYC shelters all insisted that she have more space (she lived in a spacious Brooklyn two-bedroom) and that someone be home with the cat all day long. That simply isn’t feasible for a lot of people.

There are also a lot of differences between responsible private breeders and puppy mills.

Which isn’t to discourage shelter adoption — lots of great animals are languishing in shelters, and taking them in instead of getting a designer puppy is very laudable. So is adopting a child, or serving as a foster parent. But it isn’t for everyone, and there are lots of issues to be taken into account.

Which brings me back to feminism. I personally like the idea of adoption. If I have kids, I want to adopt. When I’m older and more settled, I would love to be a foster parent. I don’t think I would ever use IVF, because the whole biological children thing doesn’t appeal to me all that much.

But I understand that there are people to whom it does appeal, and there are people who want very badly to have biological children. There are people who seek out sperm and egg donors according to the donor’s physical appearance, education, religion, personality, and a whole slew of other characteristics. There are people who will invest tens of thousands of dollars into trying to get pregnant. I’ll be very honest when I say that I just don’t get it, but that doesn’t make it wrong, and it doesn’t make my (potential) choice to adopt or foster any more morally righteous than their choice to have biological children. It just means that we have different value systems. There are, of course, ethical lines, but I don’t think they’re drawn between adoption and childbirth, or even adoption and IVF. I don’t think we should sterilize human beings just because there are too many of us in the world already. I don’t think we should make women feel guilty about using reproductive technologies just because there are lots of kids who need foster or adoptive parents.

That’s essentially what’s happening here. In the Feministing thread someone argued that it’s different because humans have a natural urge to reproduce, whereas we don’t have a biological drive to own puppies. I would argue, though, that we do have a very natural urge for companionship and socialization, and pets can provide that. I think it’s wonderful to promote pet adoption (and human adoption, for that matter). But we can do that by talking about our own great experiences with our adopted pets, and with pointing others in the direction of pet-adoption resources. Ragging on someone for buying a pet isn’t effective in any way, shape or form — what, exactly, do commenters expect Jessica to do? And comparing pet ownership to slavery is so beyond the pale that it simply shuts down conversation and makes many of us who are otherwise sympathetic to the animal-rights cause want to run in the other direction.

There’s not much else to say about this except that Monty is f-ing cute, and I can’t wait to get back to NY so that I can meet him in person. And if anyone comes across a black brindle Frenchie (preferably a girl so that I can name her Lily) or a blenheim Cavalier King Charles Spaniel who needs a good home, please send them my way.


153 thoughts on Drive-by puppy-mommying

  1. There are lots of other hypocrisies too. Insects are animals. Fleas, mites, spiders, flies, and so on, better be getting human rights if there’s no difference between humans and animals.

    Oh, I’m sorry, that isn’t what they meant? There’s no agitation for sea cucumber rights? Sea cucumbers just aren’t like pigs?

    Well, no, they’re not. Maybe there are gradations between things. Astonishing.

  2. Oh, sure, be all reasonable and non-combative and shit.

    You should have seen the original post — it definitely did not start off as reasonable or non-combative. But then I read yours and it was so much better than mine that I had to change the tone. So, I blame you.

  3. i got my two dogs from a rescue organization, and i plan for any future dogs of mine to come from rescue groups.

    however, there are a lot of responsible breeders out there, and if jessica got her dog from one, good for her. (i have some personal issues with purebred dogs– some breeds are being bred so quickly and so indiscriminately that they end up with arthritis or hip displasia or something else awful. i knew a rhodie with spinal arthritis once. *mild* spinal arthritis. [shudder])

    the people i have serious problems with are people who buy their dogs at pet stores. ugh. not a good environment for the dog while it’s there, and frequently they came from puppy mills.

    I would be floored if someone suggested that the solution to poverty and homelessness was to sterilize human beings.

    no, no, we should eat the poor instead. or didn’t they make you read that in high school english? 😉

  4. There’s no agitation for sea cucumber rights?

    there is in seattle. AFSCR – second thursday every month at my house. i serve lovely snacks made from plants that have passed away due to natural causes, or from roadkill.

    i have had many good friends over the years who truly believe that meat is murder, and somehow all of them failed to condemn me as a murderer. i find all of this tolerance, patience and compassion completely mystifying.

    no, no, we should eat the poor instead.
    i just got the urge to go buy 1,000 lottery tickets.

  5. A former room mate of mine ended up going upstate to adopt her cat, because NYC shelters all insisted that she have more space (she lived in a spacious Brooklyn two-bedroom) and that someone be home with the cat all day long.

    Seriously?? Have they gone mad there in New York in recent years? I adopted my late, great Southpaw from Bide-A-Wee on East 38th in 1984, and I lived in a tiny two-room studio and was gone all day. None of that was an issue for them; they just wanted to know I had a fixed address and could provide for her. I understand not wanting to adopt a cat out to some crack addict living in her 1977 Datsun B210 in the middle of winter, but geesh, they’d really rather keep all these animals around in cages, or even gas them, than adopt out to people who aren’t multi-millionaires living in 5000-sf townhomes? What are they on?

  6. But the way we discuss them matters too, and I don’t think that the appropriate place to bring them up is in a thread where a feminist blogger posts a cute video of her puppy.

    Despite their denial, I had the feeling if a feminist blogger announced she was pregnant, instead of congratulating her the mob would denounce her for not adopting a special needs child instead; that she effectively condemned that child to a motherless life.

  7. I think I agree with almost everything you’ve said–

    except this one sentence (in regards to sterilizing dogs and cats and not human beings).

    The species difference matters

    I just can’t see how the species itself–the mere biological category (which, of course, is a category we humans constructed)–is at all morally relevant. (Maybe that isn’t what you meant since you were also talking about personhood in that paragraph?)

    The way I look at it personhood is a moral category and many humans (but not all) are persons and most non-human animals (but not all) are not persons because personhood is a matter of mental and emotional abilities, not merely a capacity to suffer.

    I think we all agree (I hope!) that since cats and dogs are not persons and have no capacity to make any choices for themselves regarding their own welfare or reproductive decisions, it is not a violation of their rights to have them spayed or neutered. So there is of course a big difference between cats and dogs and humans.

    However, I did want to point out one area of disanalogy between your comparison of racial, class, and disability based forced sterilization of humans vs. sterilization of animals. In the historical case of sterilization in humans the situation has always been one in which privileged humans attempt to force sterilization on less privileged humans to the benefit of the privileged and the detriment of the unprivileged. Not so in the cat and dog case, though–it’s not like the purebreed dogs are trying to wipe out what the consider inferior dogs by denying them the ability to breed while encouraging the purebreeds to have all the puppies they like. Rather the situation is one in which all dogs and cats are apt to suffer from increasing overpopulation and in order to prevent that all dogs and cats have to bear the much, much smaller costs of a one time surgery which of course does have risks.

    I guess what I’m saying is, suppose the human population throughout the world were as badly overpopulated as the dog and cat population. And suppose that there were no class, gender, race, disability differences which result in social hierarchies. And the world leaders realize that there is a population crisis happening and the only solution is to require sterilization across the board of every single human being. (Say future humans can be produced in labs or something.) And suppose this order is really enforced in ways that do not allow anyone to benefit or suffer from their race or class, etc (no one can buy their way out or have a friend of a friend pull strings.)

    How do you feel about this situation vs the situation in which black women, poor women, or disabled women are coerced or forced into being sterilized by a government controlled by upperclass, white, abled men? I feel a heck of a lot better about my hypothetical situation. It’s still horrible–still a situation in which a govt is forcing people to undergo surgery they don’t want and is taking away all their reproductive choices. It is still a kind of rights violation. But everyone is bearing equally the costs which are required so that they can continue to live w/out horrible suffering and so that their situations can improve. I can’t say I feel completely outraged about it. That would be a much closer analogy to the situation of dogs and cats.

    Also, one more point on a different topic. Perhaps some of the disagreement about whether humans are equal to non-human animals or whether non-human animals are of high moral status, but not as high as humans is an issue of the concept of personhood being pretty problematic in itself. I think there are two kinds of schools within moral philosophy. One side thinks of “rights” and “personhood” as first principles–some of the most basic moral concepts. Rights are just inviolable no matter what the circumstances. The other side thinks of those concepts as a kind of shorthand. To say that humans have a right to life is just to say that in almost every situation killing innocent humans would not lead to the most good overall for everyone; but once in a great while killing an innocent person does lead to the greatest good for all, and in those situations it is okay to kill an innocent person. So rights are usually inviolable–except in situations in which the greatest good would be produced through violating a right.

    I really want to be on the former side (I think many philosophers who aren’t on this side want to be on this side)–a right is inviolable, period. But I can’t really reason it out in a way that works so I’m kind of torn. If the PETA people are of the 2nd side in the disagreement, then for them the concept of personhood is not so concrete. It’s really just shorthand for “these are the beings which concern for the overall good dictates we must treat with very high standards of conduct”. So I understand why someone who puts a lot of stock in personhood would be offended by comparisons between slavery and the treatment of non-human animals. As you’ve pointed out, such a comparison ignores the fact that those humans who were enslaved were persons and slavery was a violation of that very personhood. But for someone who doesn’t buy into personhood as anymore than a shorthand in the first place, it’s not clear that there is much to be offended about.

  8. sorry for being a repetitive troll, but aren’t we all forgetting that Monty is cute?. like cutie-patootie-wootie-schmootie cute.

  9. I’d like to point out that “no kill” is deceiving as far as shelters go. Shelters that are “no kill” must reject animals who are brought to the shelter, because there’s not enough room and they don’t kill animals to make room. “Kill shelters” do not reject animals brought to the shelter; they must euthenize animals in order to make room for more (usually the very old, very sick, or those who’ve been there a long time). It’s an unfortunate designation because it paints one kind of shelter as humane and the other as evil when that’s not really the case.

    Also please note that Elaine was not the only animal rights advocate commenting on Jessica’s post. I made my voice heard as well and I didn’t demand anything from Jessica or compare dog ownership to slavery, and I don’t appreciate being treated like garbage by people like Zuzu.

  10. Nastily accusing me of things (like the “do you have any comments about slavery?” question) and painting the pro-animal-rights folks as a homogenous bunch, whom with there can be no discussion because we’re so irrational and you’re so rational, end of story. You’re glad Elaine made the slavery comment because now you can post this non-story on all your blogs to show how stupid anti-breeding people are.

  11. Despite their denial, I had the feeling if a feminist blogger announced she was pregnant, instead of congratulating her the mob would denounce her for not adopting a special needs child instead; that she effectively condemned that child to a motherless life.

    Thank you, Hector. That’s exactly how they sounded to me, too.

    sorry for being a repetitive troll, but aren’t we all forgetting that Monty is cute?. like cutie-patootie-wootie-schmootie cute.

    So cute. Furry-baby-cutie-boo-smoochy-poo cute.

  12. I am really disturbed by a common thread I see on the Big Three feminist blogs. The post will be like this: blah blah blah facts blah blah blah opinions blh blah blah but in the end, all that matters is (something that has nothing to do with the point of the post).

    Monty’s cuteness does not change the facts, and bringing it up seems to make your (very well written) post all “nah nah nah, I don’t care about the issues this presents because it makes (me/Jessica) happy”.

    I have stayed out of this debate- I hate the idea of breeding dogs, but I also hate dogs, so I don’t feel like I can comment on the politics of dogs. But pretending people aren’t going to make personal issues political is odd, when the personal is political, even if it by a feminist blogger.

    We saw this with Jessica’s book- a debate I also stayed out of, for the record- the posts would talk about how there were all these issues, but in the end we should just ignore them all because YAY bookdeal. It was an ineffective plan last time, and it will be ineffective here.

    Again, I liked your take on all this even if there were parts I disagreed with, but your last paragraph really rubbed me the wrong way.

  13. Of course they were judging Jessica. What is passing judgment if not casting your opinion about someone’s behavior? When a judge declares you guilty of breaking the law, he’s being pretty specific; he’s not commenting on how you treat your mom. That sort of hedging and weaseling to do behavior X while calling it behavior Y is a right wing manuever. (“I’m not saying pregnancy is punishment, just that you should have consequences for your actions.”) I’ll pass judgment: People on our side should be better than that.

  14. Yeah, it’s “the personal is political” where feminism is concerned, but not dog breeding because someone we like bought from a breeder and it’s not cool to criticize.

  15. Again, I liked your take on all this even if there were parts I disagreed with, but your last paragraph really rubbed me the wrong way.

    I don’t want to speak for Jill, I don’t think that Jill was implying that because Monty is cute, the whole argument of whether or not you should buy from a breeder is moot. I took it as separate from the post as the whole: like, “And on another, tangential note: Jess! Your dog is so cute and I can’t wait to meet him and rub his furry widdle tummy and kiss him and love him and squeeze him and call him George!”

  16. People on “our side” pass judgement on people’s behavior all the time. Usually sexist, misogynist behavior, on feminist blogs. There’s nothing wrong with that. Or is it only acceptable where feminism, specifically, in concerned?

  17. You’ve pretty much exactly stated my own position on animal rights. Though, my vegetarianism really has little to do with any ethical thoughts on killing animals, and much more to do with the effect of meat production on human beings.

  18. I am really disturbed by a common thread I see on the Big Three feminist blogs. The post will be like this: blah blah blah facts blah blah blah opinions blh blah blah but in the end, all that matters is (something that has nothing to do with the point of the post).

    Except I didn’t say that’s “all that matters.” The fact that I wrote a huge friggin post about the issues would imply that I think other things matter a lot more. I was just trying to end the post on a light note. Nothing more, nothing less.

  19. I took it as separate from the post as the whole: like, “And on another, tangential note: Jess! Your dog is so cute and I can’t wait to meet him and rub his furry widdle tummy and kiss him and love him and squeeze him and call him George!”

    Which is fine in email form. It is fairly inappropiate in a blog about issues, as if Jill is completely dismissing everything she just wrote because damn, the dog is cute.

  20. Which is fine in email form. It is fairly inappropiate in a blog about issues, as if Jill is completely dismissing everything she just wrote because damn, the dog is cute.

    In your opinion, perhaps. I took it as wanting to leave the post on a positive note, and not dismissing everything she just wrote. Which, as I see she just posted, was exactly her intent.

  21. I do a lot of volunteer work with an animal rescue group in my area, and I wish that people would consider adopting a pet before purchasing one from a breeder. Everyone who was being shitty to Jessica on that comment thread was out of line AND doing rescue groups a disservice by generating bad PR. How is cluck-clucking at Jessica and her cute puppy videos going to help animals in shelters get adopted? The pet overpopulation problem isn’t one that’s going to get solved by glaring at people in the park when they take their dachsund for a walk. I have no idea why Jessica decided to buy a dog and honestly, it’s not my business. I could understand making a nice comment about how cute Monty is and how if she is considering a 2nd dog, she might look into rescue groups if she hasn’t already, but the venom is unnecessary.

  22. Nastily accusing me of things (like the “do you have any comments about slavery?” question) and painting the pro-animal-rights folks as a homogenous bunch, whom with there can be no discussion because we’re so irrational and you’re so rational, end of story.

    I’d like to remind you that the first comment you addressed to me in that thread contained a demand that I answer someone else’s assertion. Rather nastily, too, I might add.

    You’re glad Elaine made the slavery comment because now you can post this non-story on all your blogs to show how stupid anti-breeding people are.

    I do so love it when someone decides my motivations for me.

    Actually, I’m fucking appalled that Elaine made the slavery comment. And you should be, too, if you have any regard for how the animal-rights movement is perceived.

    It’s appalling enough when it’s used to compare conditions at slaughterhouses with the conditions of slaves. At least there, there’s an argument to be made that systematic cruelty is wrong no matter what the species of the victim. But that point is lost when the person making the argument dismisses the long history of racist comparisons of certain groups to animals.

    However, it’s even more appalling when it’s used to beat someone over the head for buying a puppy, *particularly so* when the only argument offered in support was tautological (“It’s wrong because it’s wrong!”).

  23. Which is fine in email form. It is fairly inappropiate in a blog about issues, as if Jill is completely dismissing everything she just wrote because damn, the dog is cute.

    This is a blog about whatever the writers feel like writing about. If you’d like more control over the content, I suggest you begin your own.

  24. Zuzu, how do you still not get that my “demand” for logic and reason was a response to YOUR demand for the same thing, something you demanded while offering no “logical, reasonable, moral/ethics-free” argument for equal rights – something YOU (and I) care strongly about. You were judging people by much higher standards than you hold yourself to.

    I still don’t know why you’re accusing me of being *so mean* and inappropriate on that thread, when my first comment was a compliment to Monty. I only got into the breeding vs. adoption debate because I thought some things needed clarification.

  25. All the pro-breeding people are sounding A LOT like anti-feminists who tell feminists they better watch themselves if they care how the women’s rights movement is perceived (like a threat), and who ask, “Why are you talking about X when Y is sooo much more important!”
    It’s weird.

  26. However, it’s even more appalling when it’s used to beat someone over the head for buying a puppy

    I must be tired; I read that as “beat someone over the head with a puppy”, to which my first reaction was “Aaaag!” and my second reaction was “But if you beat them gently – and it was a really cute puppy -”
    Erm, erm. Back to the more serious issue: I am very pro-rescue, and sharing my house currently with one grumpy, but sweet to me, aging cat who came from a shelter and two rescue guinea pigs. I’d discourage anyone from buying a cat at a pet store or a guinea pig from either a pet store or a breeder (and if anyone wants to know why regarding the guinea pigs, I’ve got links they can look at). However – the worst thing a bad-tempered guinea pig will do to you is give you a painful bite. Nobody of whom I am aware has ever been killed by an enraged guinea pig. If a dog were in our future, I would feel comfortable acquiring a dog from a rescue, but I can understand why others, especially those with small children, wouldn’t. One does not let one’s children pull the dog’s ears, but if they should – and small children do things their parents tell them not to do all the time – one would like to feel confident that the small children would not lose noses because of it.

  27. One thing I wish people would understand is that animals are not in shelters because they are “bad;” their circumstances are completely beyond their control.
    In fact, a lot of homeless animals were once purebred pups bought from a breeder. But people are stupid; they often bite off more than they can chew and end up taking their brand new puppy to a shelter when they realize it’s not for them. That’s what’s so unfortunate – even the purebred dogs that cost their former owners $500 get dumped like trash into shelters at an alarming rate. People need to be educated about stuff like this before they ruin some animal’s life.
    I just know this new movie “Underdog” is going to increase the demand for beagle puppies, and it breaks my heart because families are going to buy them from breeders and half will end up at shelters because they’re a lot of work.

  28. Yeah, it’s “the personal is political” where feminism is concerned, but not dog breeding because someone we like bought from a breeder and it’s not cool to criticize.

    No. No,no,no. “The personal is political” does not mean “criticizing other people for wearing lipgloss is a form of political activism.” It was not intended to be an excuse to subject women or feminists to special scrutiny or shame. It means that when you think about the problems in your life, such as the fact that your husband does no housework or that you feel guilty every time you eat, you should realize that these are social, rather than individual problems. They are political issues, rather than just your own personal failings. “The personal is political” has nothing to do with whether you should take Jessica to task for her doggie-purchasing habits. It’s supposed to be a way of analyzing your own issues, not an excuse to call out other people for behavior you don’t like.

    And yes, that is the cutest dog in existence. I am not at all in a position to get a dog right now, but boy does that video make me want one!

  29. I really enjoyed this post, and would also like to commend Jill and Zuzu on their awesome tag-teaming approach. This has been very thought-provoking, and I’ve learned a lot from your posts and from the replies you elicited from other commenters on every side of the issue.

  30. I’m also a new puppy mom (my baby is 4 months old), and I bought my puppy from a breeder, and I did so for a specific reason. I live in an apartment. I knew what she would grow up to look like, how big, and was positive that she would be happy in my apartment. She’s little and doesn’t shed. I would have loved to have gotten a shelter dog, but if I did, I could have easily ended up with a shedding enormous dog that my landlord would have hated (and that could have left us both homeless) or that would not have had the space necessary to live a happy dog life.
    It’s great to feel so strongly about shelter animals, but don’t attack those who can’t get them. Sometimes a choice is politically motivated, sometimes it’s practical, and sometimes it is just a personal preference. Whether it be about a puppy or any other life choice, you have to trust the people who are making them.

  31. Zuzu, how do you still not get that my “demand” for logic and reason was a response to YOUR demand for the same thing, something you demanded while offering no “logical, reasonable, moral/ethics-free” argument for equal rights – something YOU (and I) care strongly about. You were judging people by much higher standards than you hold yourself to.

    I didn’t make a demand, just pointed out that nobody had been doing anything other than making tautological arguments that breeding was wrong. You yourself said that the issue was “black and white,” without really giving any reasons for believing so, or for believing that it’s a feminist issue.

    And then you demanded that I defend equal rights for women, out of nowhere. I’m still not sure where that came from.

    I still don’t know why you’re accusing me of being *so mean* and inappropriate on that thread, when my first comment was a compliment to Monty. I only got into the breeding vs. adoption debate because I thought some things needed clarification.

    Well, ditto. I really don’t see where I treated you “like garbage,” or addressed you “nastily.” In any event, you never did answer my question to you, which is: what’s the point of the scolding?

  32. And my point is, I didn’t scold Jessica. I joined the discussion but did none of the things that you seem to be so angry about.

  33. And then you demanded that I defend equal rights for women, out of nowhere. I’m still not sure where that came from.

    Sigh. Because YOU obviously care a lot about women’s rights (so do I); I care a lot about animal rights. So I compared my concern for animals to your concern for women. Were you able to defend your cause the way you asked me (and others) to defend animal rights? That was the point.

  34. In fact, a lot of homeless animals were once purebred pups bought from a breeder.

    Most of the puppies in the shelter where I volunteer are purebred. Whenever a movie comes out with a particular breed of dog in the starring role, we get a huge influx of that type of breed in the shelter. Right now, we have tons of dalmatians; people don’t realize how high energy they are.

  35. Sarah, for my part, I thought your participation in the other thread was fine. I appreciated being asked to think about puppy mills, and I think you make good points. (Although my brother recently had to put down his rescue dog because the poor thing had been beaten very badly as a puppy by an abusive owner, and so it would panic and bite strangers, including a neighbor’s three-year-old. It was very sad, and definitely not the dog’s fault for being bad. But it did make me understand why people with small kids might hesitate about rescue. Personally, I get my cats from shelters.)

    Anyway, for me, it was the slavery thing that went over the top and justified an angry reaction.

  36. I’d discourage anyone from buying a cat at a pet store or a guinea pig from either a pet store or a breeder

    I support this wholeheartedly. First, many people don’t realize that animal shelters have small pets, too. That would be the first place I would go if I wanted a guinea pig. Second, the personality of a randombred domestic shorthair is pretty predictable. Kittens are delightful, and here at least, there is a definite kitten season making overpopulation a huge problem at the humane society.

  37. OK, Mandolin; that was one person. And I see no reason for all the feminist blogs to make it an issue like “See how crazy animal welfare advocates are?!1!” I never said anything about slavery, or even meat consumption, or pet ownership, and neither did some of the other commenters. I wish we weren’t all being painted with a broad brush and our arguments disregarded because of one poor comparison.
    That’s very sad about your brother’s dog. The real problem here is abusive, reckless and/or negligent dog owners, PERIOD, who put so many animals into shelters to begin with. I think breeders should screen the people they sell to the way shelters do, to ensure a good fit and that the dog(s) are going to caring owners. But they don’t, because breeding is about profit. Anyway, my condolences to your bro.

  38. SarahMC, your point is valid. There are plenty of great and mellow dogs at shelters. However, like adopting children out of the foster system, they are almost always there because something bad happened. It’s not their fault, but as the adoptor, you need to be prepared, and feel capable of being the approriate parent for that child, or that animal. It’s not for everyone, and I’m happy for people to only take on what they know they can handle. (which goes for all pets. If people really gave it a lot of thought, there would be many fewer animals at shelters.) Education- to encourage able people to adopt and to show how wonderful rescues can be- is awesome. But I’d also prefer that people only take on what they think they can handle, and not give that pet another bad situation.

  39. Sigh. Because YOU obviously care a lot about women’s rights (so do I); I care a lot about animal rights. So I compared my concern for animals to your concern for women. Were you able to defend your cause the way you asked me (and others) to defend animal rights? That was the point.

    That point was lost in the demand that I justify my basis for thinking that women are equal to other human beings.

    In any event, it’s worth hashing out some things like this. But at bottom, you have a fundamental disconnect between people who base their concern for animals on the concept that animals are equal to humans, and people who base their concern for animals on the concept that humans have an obligation as custodians to treat animals kindly.

    There *is* common ground there, but there are going to be areas of clash, and this was a good example of that.

  40. Also please note that Elaine was not the only animal rights advocate commenting on Jessica’s post. I made my voice heard as well and I didn’t demand anything from Jessica or compare dog ownership to slavery, and I don’t appreciate being treated like garbage by people like Zuzu.

    But she was easily being the most obnoxious. There’s no other way to describe her slavery comment but obnoxious and full of white privilege. Then, she comes onto my blog and posts a link to an article that she wrote justifying the slavery comment.
    I refuse to debate with people like that because they refuse to even analyze their behavior. That’s what put me off from her posts on the thread, her “I’m right and you’re wrong and I’m gonna take away your feminist membership card if you don’t agree with me.” At least I can admit that I benefit a lot from animals–from the medicines I take to the clothes I wear, but I’m making an active effort to lessen my footprint on the planet.
    Also, I’m the one who asked for logic and reason, not zuzu, so you can lay of per.

  41. If a dog were in our future, I would feel comfortable acquiring a dog from a rescue, but I can understand why others, especially those with small children, wouldn’t. One does not let one’s children pull the dog’s ears, but if they should – and small children do things their parents tell them not to do all the time – one would like to feel confident that the small children would not lose noses because of it.

    Oddly, having raised a dog from a puppy is no guarantee that if your kid hurts it the dog will not retaliate.

  42. Incidentally, I didn’t mean to suggest that purebred dogs are on the whole better-behaved than random-breds, but that, if one buys a puppy from a reputable and ethical breeder, one can meet the puppy’s relatives and see what their temperments are like. Breeding for good temperment plus proper training gives the best chance of a good-tempered dog.

  43. SarahMC, your point is valid. There are plenty of great and mellow dogs at shelters. However, like adopting children out of the foster system, they are almost always there because something bad happened. It’s not their fault, but as the adoptor, you need to be prepared, and feel capable of being the approriate parent for that child, or that animal. It’s not for everyone, and I’m happy for people to only take on what they know they can handle. (which goes for all pets. If people really gave it a lot of thought, there would be many fewer animals at shelters.) Education- to encourage able people to adopt and to show how wonderful rescues can be- is awesome. But I’d also prefer that people only take on what they think they can handle, and not give that pet another bad situation.

    I take issue with “they are almost always there because something bad happened.” I volunteer at a shelter, and you would not believe the number of times the “something bad” that happened was that some asshole couldn’t be bothered with caring for their dog, or didn’t do any research before adopting a dog, or didn’t walk their dog ever and got angry when the dog shit on the floor. Shelter dogs are not a priori “damaged goods.”

    Shelter adoptions: The best thing. Adopting from a breeder: I understand, as I have some major breed-crushes and most ethical breeders are careful in what they do. Buying from a pet store? Pretty much indefensible, in my book.

    Monty is so damn cute.

  44. I volunteer at a shelter, and you would not believe the number of times the “something bad” that happened was that some asshole couldn’t be bothered with caring for their dog, or didn’t do any research before adopting a dog, or didn’t walk their dog ever and got angry when the dog shit on the floor. Shelter dogs are not a priori “damaged goods.”

    Thank you! That is the truth. And the poor animals get branded with the “shelter dog” label for the rest of it’s life, and are avoided by most people because some asshole was selfish and lazy.

  45. I would have loved to have gotten a shelter dog, but if I did, I could have easily ended up with a shedding enormous dog that my landlord would have hated (and that could have left us both homeless) or that would not have had the space necessary to live a happy dog life.

    i just want to point out that some of the bigger breeds do very well in small apartments. please don’t get me wrong, Courtney, i am not criticising your decision. many landlords have a knee-jerk reaction to even the suggestion of a big dog, because they think they’ll damage the property or bite, etc. and big dogs cost more to feed (and medication costs a LOT more, too). and hey, maybe you just like smaller dogs.

    but so many people in small spaces think they can’t have the big breeds that they’d like, when many of those large breeds are very mellow. i live in a small condo and have 2 greyhounds (who are on the larger side) and they do very well because greyhounds are just big couch potatoes (40-mile-an-hour couch potatoes). especially former racers. and they don’t need big backyards to run around in either – they are happy to have a walk on-leash. the same goes for newfies and great danes, while smaller breeds like jack russells are really hyper and love to tear around (endlessly!).

    one other misperception drives me a little crazy (no one here has mentioned it but i’ve had conversations with people who bring it up): the idea that people are better off getting a puppy because puppies will really bond with the family as opposed to adult dogs. i’ve had 4 dogs – all adopted as adults – and those dogs couldn’t have bonded more closely to me and the family.

  46. Don’t comment much, but I generally enjoy the posts here. I find this a little odd of a topic for this blog but anyway…
    Why do you feel the need to call your self sympathetic to a movement you are opposed to? It’s a little insulting. Moe to the point you’re making a straw man out of an AR position. There’s a big difference between saying animals and humans should be treated the same, and saying the neither should be treated as property.
    I hate PETA, and so do most of the other vegans I know, their sexist, racist, classist, and capitalistic. fuck peta.

    Also you state:

    We have an obligation… to not subject them to unnecessary pain and suffering… I don’t think that eating meat is morally wrong

    hmmm, do you consider meat necessary? Curious as I’m still alive…

  47. My feelings on adoptions is that they should be done by the persons who will live with the pet. My sisters bought my mother a shelter rescue dog, beautiful dog but it grew up to be my father’s dog. He was huge and thankfully my parents had retired to a farm so they had the space for him to get the exercise that he needed. Many rescue pets are there because someone else purchases the pet as a present and the match just isn’t there. I would definitely buy a shelter animal for my family but it would be pick and choose until I found the right one. An animal isn’t a coat that can be refitted or returned and it isn’t a toy that can be easily exchanged with a receipt and the original packaging. No pet should be an impulse buy or a trendy accessory.
    On the rights issue, I adhere to the belief that we should treat all species specific animals in ways to ensure that they thrive. Treating a human like a dog or a dog like a human is a move guaranteed to ensure the health of neither.

  48. An animal isn’t a coat that can be refitted or returned and it isn’t a toy that can be easily exchanged with a receipt and the original packaging. No pet should be an impulse buy or a trendy accessory.

    R-amen

  49. Lillet, that was my whole point. “Something bad happened” does not mean the dog is bad or damaged or will not be perfect in your home. But I consider “some asshole couldn’t be bothered with caring for their dog, or didn’t do any research before adopting a dog, or didn’t walk their dog ever and got angry when the dog shit on the floor” as something bad. The dog may be perfect, but their previous owner may have been an asshole or an idiot and who knows what else they did to that dog.
    My point is that there is that unknowing, and I respect that some people cannot and should not handle that.

  50. Good points, Kristen. Adopted and/or rescued dogs are soooo grateful to have a loving owner and a safe home, no matter how old they are. It’s beautiful. It’s like they literally say “thank you” with their eyes and their affection. My old roommate adopted a formerly abused pit bull mix and the bond they shared was amazing and inspiring. She is devoted; that’s the most important thing. And I rescued an 8 year old beagle who follows me around like a puppy even though he’s an old man. Knowing that you can provide them with a happy life, even if for just their last couple years on earth, is very rewarding.

  51. Why do you feel the need to call your self sympathetic to a movement you are opposed to? It’s a little insulting.

    I’m not opposed to it. I’m also not 100 percent in favor of it. I am, however, in favor of some of the same goals as animal rights activists. I think that, on the whole, their movement is a positive one. Hence, although I am not an animal rights activist myself, I am sympathetic to their aims. Can one really only be entirely for or against something?

    Moe to the point you’re making a straw man out of an AR position. There’s a big difference between saying animals and humans should be treated the same, and saying the neither should be treated as property.
    I hate PETA, and so do most of the other vegans I know, their sexist, racist, classist, and capitalistic. fuck peta.

    I wasn’t trying to suggest that all animal rights activists like PETA. They obviously don’t. I was initially responding to a really offensive comment made in the name of animal rights activism, and that turned into a post about the broader AR issues, and where I think the perspective is flawed (and where I think it’s good). I didn’t feel the need to say “Now, obviously not every AR activist feels this way…” because I figured that would be obvious enough from the Feministing thread and from Zuzu’s thread.

    hmmm, do you consider meat necessary? Curious as I’m still alive…

    No, I don’t consider it necessary. I didn’t eat it for eleven years. But there’s a difference between “necessary” and “morally acceptable.” I wasn’t speaking to necessity.

  52. Staying out of the rest of it, since I have no pertinent comments…

    Bryan:

    do you consider meat necessary?

    It is for me, thanks to a combination of dietary problems, availability of food, and money problems. I really, really wish people would stop with the “omg, meat is never necessary” argument, because sometimes, yeah, it is.

    I know I bring up my own dietary problems every time a comment about meat-eating shows up, but the point needs to be made. Some people eat meat out of necessity. It’s nice to believe that meat-eating is wrong, but what about people like me? If eating meat were banned tomorrow, what would you have me do?

  53. The rescue group that I volunteer with puts a lot of emphasis on matching the animal with the correct family; I’m not sure how many other rescue groups function like this. Most of the animals spend some time with foster families so we can get a feel for what sort of conditions they need to thrive. Some dogs don’t do well with kids or other dogs or older folks and some dogs are fine with cats–it’s worth it to figure all this out because we get fewer animals returned to us.

    We also microchip, vaccinate, spay and neuter all the animals before they go up for adoption. All the dogs spend enough time with a trainer to be house and crate trained, generally non-aggressive, and able to be walked on a leash. Again, I don’t have much experience with other shelters or rescue groups, but I think you’d be WAY better off adopting a dog from a rescue group that’s really trying to tackle the problem of pet overpopulation than you would trying to rely on a breed’s (or a breeder’s) reputation.

  54. I would like to add (sorry, I could talk about this for hours – guess I have been!) that if you are NOT 100% determined to rescue a dog for life, maybe you shouldn’t adopt. I think the trauma of being shuffled around from home to home, shelter to shelter, can be worse than euthenasia for some of these poor pups. It is often a lot of work to care for a shelter dog; they can take a while to get used to the new environment and to learn to trust you as it’s owner. So it’s best that you be ready and willing to put the time and effort in if you’re considering adoption.

  55. All the rescues I’ve worked with or my friends and I’ve adopted from have operated in a similar way, Jenny.

  56. Though I don’t agree with most points SarahMC makes, I do want to second her information about “no kill” shelters. That title is misleading, to say the least. I volunteer in Iowa at my local rescue league, and I’ve heard the tales of “no kill” shelters dropping their animals off at the rescue league in the middle of the night because they knew the league wouldn’t turn them away.

    So basically, they don’t have a problem with killing animals, as long as the blood is on someone else’s hands.

    And it can also mean that some perfectly good, adoptable pets are being turned to the street (literally) because the “no kill” facilities are full – even if they animals they currently house are unadoptable.

  57. Offense at the comparison between non-human animal slavery and human slavery says much more about a person’s opinion about animals (i.e., that they are morally insignificant compared to humans) than it does about the person making the comparison’s opinion about black people. The comparison explicitly affirms the horror of slavery for all species, and one should be rightly revolted by it because it’s wrong. I think the accusations of racism stem from the cognitive dissonance of realizing that something one supports is abhorrent, but rather than confront that directly it’s much easier to throw out the argument all together. Classic ad hominem.

    Making a being work (or die) for your profit without that being’s consent is slavery, plain and simple. Call it something else if you must, but it is the same thing. There is no magic characteristic that humans have that makes it more wrong to violate their consent.

    If using animals for food is acceptable, why isn’t bestiality? The problem with bestiality, leaving aside the “yuck factor,” is that animals can’t consent. So why does consent matter in sex, but somehow not in confinement, torture, and death? How can one say it’s wrong to harm animals in one breath and then affirm the ultimate harm — death — in the next bite? If I kill a human “humanely” does it somehow become acceptable?

  58. I believe that human beings have a responsibility to take care of ourselves and other animals to the best of our ability. I do not believe, however, that animals are people, too. We have an obligation to treat non-human animals with kindness, to not abuse them, to not subject them to unnecessary pain and suffering. However, I do believe that humans have greater rights than non-human animals. I don’t think that eating meat is morally wrong; I do, however, thing there are serious moral wrongs happening in the meat industry. I don’t think that having a pet is morally wrong; I do, however, think that there are serious moral wrongs happening in the animal-breeding industry.

    If you state from the outset that you believe all these things, of course you aren’t going to understand what the people objecting are talking about. Two different languages.

    If one is religious, of course, you think humans are superior to animals. If you aren’t, it’s just a prejudice, like any other.

  59. Offense at the comparison between non-human animal slavery and human slavery says much more about a person’s opinion about animals (i.e., that they are morally insignificant compared to humans) than it does about the person making the comparison’s opinion about black people. The comparison explicitly affirms the horror of slavery for all species, and one should be rightly revolted by it because it’s wrong. I think the accusations of racism stem from the cognitive dissonance of realizing that something one supports is abhorrent, but rather than confront that directly it’s much easier to throw out the argument all together. Classic ad hominem.

    Matthew, there’s a lot of space between “morally insignificant” and “morally equivalent to humans.” I argue that animals occupy a middle ground — they aren’t insignificant at all, but they also aren’t as important as people. Animal suffering is not as important as human suffering.

    Making a being work (or die) for your profit without that being’s consent is slavery, plain and simple. Call it something else if you must, but it is the same thing. There is no magic characteristic that humans have that makes it more wrong to violate their consent.

    Hmm. Ok, so how do you feel about pet ownership? Should people be disallowed from having pets? I mean, I don’t make my dog work, but I do legally own him. I do keep in contained within my house and my backyard. I do not allow him to do as he pleases. He does not lead a free life, even though he is an adult dog. If he were a human, my actions would be seriously suspect. Where does pet ownership fall in your moral map?

    If using animals for food is acceptable, why isn’t bestiality? The problem with bestiality, leaving aside the “yuck factor,” is that animals can’t consent. So why does consent matter in sex, but somehow not in confinement, torture, and death? How can one say it’s wrong to harm animals in one breath and then affirm the ultimate harm — death — in the next bite? If I kill a human “humanely” does it somehow become acceptable?

    Well, beastiality is also often painful and torturous for the animal, so I’d say that counts for a lot in my opposition to it.

    Your argument about confinement just proves my point, though — no animal can consent to being confined. My dog is confined and he definitely doesn’t consent to it. So what does that mean for pet ownership? For animal shelters, even? The animals aren’t there voluntarily, after all.

  60. I’d also add that attacking someone for getting a dog from a breeder is a really poor tactic. A lot of people avoid shelters because they think that the dogs suck; if you make it sound like getting a dog from a shelter is like taking your medicine, then you reinforce this incorrect belief. If people get the impression that the only reason to get a dog from the shelter is because it’s the Right Thing To Do instead of the fun thing to do, they’ll blow it off. Because at the end of the day, we take our pets on so we can enjoy them.

    When I’m trying to persuade people to get animals from shelters, I pitch it as the equal-or-better argument. Dogs at the shelter are just as good and cheaper. Dogs at the shelter are more likely to be mutts and therefore not genetic maladapts. Shelter pets are grateful to you and a lot more obedient. I show off my lovely shelter pets and point out that my life would be the poorer without them. What I don’t do is make it sound like a chore or something that should be done in order to avoid scolding from someone who gets off on being a goody-two-shoes.

  61. If you state from the outset that you believe all these things, of course you aren’t going to understand what the people objecting are talking about. Two different languages.

    So… I should obscure what I believe so that I can give the impression that I’m a clean slate when I’m not?

    It’s silly to argue that just because you state one belief, you won’t understand what people are objecting to. Believe me, I get their arguments. I just don’t agree. And I think it’s appropriate for people who are weighing in on issues to state their biases and viewpoints upfront so that we don’t give a false impression of objectivity.

    If one is religious, of course, you think humans are superior to animals. If you aren’t, it’s just a prejudice, like any other.

    This also also a pretty ridiculous statement. Why does religion justify what you see as a prejudice? It’s like saying, “If one is religious, of course, you think men are superior to women. If you aren’t, it’s just a prejudice, like any other.” No, if it’s a prejudice, then it’s a prejudice either way, whether it comes from religion or not. My view of animals as sub-human doesn’t come from my religious beliefs, it comes from my understanding of biology and science, my moral philosophy, and my experiences with both animals and humans.

    Where do the lines get drawn here? With fish? Maggots? Single-celled but still-living creatures? If eating meat is morally unacceptable, can we still eat plants, even if doing so is definitely killing some smaller creatures (bugs, microscopic things, etc)? What about creatures like sea urchins or oysters that can’t feel pain? Is it ok to eat them? Is “life” the line, or is the ability to experience pain and fear the line? And if it’s “pain and fear,” then is it ok to kill animals if we make sure that we do it painlessly and without instilling fear in them?

  62. Three things:

    1. SarahMC wrote I think breeders should screen the people they sell to the way shelters do, to ensure a good fit and that the dog(s) are going to caring owners. But they don’t, because breeding is about profit.
    Any ethical breeder will always screen people, and they do it far more stringently than most shelters do. An ethical breeder would demand vet references, personal references, a home check, an interview, etc. Ethical breeders also offer a life-time relinquishment guarantee, and keep track of their dogs.

    An ethical breeder does not make money from their dogs. Trust me. It’s near impossible to do so.

    2) As for why you’d buy a dog rather than rescue? Well, my current dog (asmooth collie) is a rescue, but I love to do canine sports (herding, obedience, tracking, conformation). As a rescue, he was five years old when I got him, which is really too old to train, and, although he certainly shows herding talent, he doesn’t have the best drive and balance.

    Next dog I get will be a purebred, purchased, and from very specific lines in order to have the best chance of getting a dog that wants to do what I want to do with a dog.
    It’s about companionship and forming a relationship with your animal that goes far beyond normal pet/guardian relationships.

    3) And, as far as Jill’s comment that we should put humans before animals, I wish to point out that the choice in that is entirely personal. I wish to work towards the good of humanity, but, when it comes to saving my niece, my SO, or my mother vs. saving my dog, my dog is going to be my choice, no questions asked.

    I simply like them more than I like humans. And I don’t think that’s an unethical view.

  63. Jill, there are several rescue societies dedicated to Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. Unfortunately, I lost the bookmarks I had, but Google turns up many. The breed has become more popular in recent years, and the usual problems associated with that arise. I suspect the same is true of French Bulldogs.

    Rescue societies and ethical shelters can be great. Puppy mills and pet stores that put the cutesy breed-of-the-month in the front windows to get people to impulse buy are terrible. I wish it was illegal to do that.

    Good breeders are careful, about the breeding and about the owners. They won’t sell to people buying on impulse, they insist on spaying/neutering or CAREFUL breeding, they take the animal back if there are problems, they love the animals and the breed. They insist on proper vet care. They are not in it for the money. Most good breeders I know or have heard from are seriously distressed when dog movies like 101 Dalmations or Underdog lead to impulse buys and more dogs bred poorly and dumped in shelters or worse. Lumping good breeders in with puppy mills and unethical pet stores is destructive.

    Given the premise that breeding is in-and-of-itself problematic, good breeders are still doing harm. I happen to disagree with that premise, but think there’s much to be said about the harm done to animals by irresponsible sellers (whether breeders or shelters or individuals) and buyers.

  64. So basically, they don’t have a problem with killing animals, as long as the blood is on someone else’s hands.

    You mean those specific no-kill shelters that you’ve had experiences with. I’m pretty sure that most of them don’t operate that way. 🙂

  65. What I don’t do is make it sound like a chore or something that should be done in order to avoid scolding from someone who gets off on being a goody-two-shoes.

    Ha! Exactly.

  66. That is what a no-kill shelter is, though, Jenny. They are no-kill because they limit the number of animals they accept to shelter. They aren’t magically able to accept an infinite number of homeless animals; they turn animals away when they’re full to capacity, which is fine and understandable. But those animals have to go somewhere; they often go to “kill” shelters which do not turn any animals away. They can only do that because they euthenize.
    But calling themselves “no-kill” is a lot life pro-lifers calling themselves “pro-life”: it makes the alternative out to be “kill” and “anti-life” respectively – which is unaccurate and doesn’t tell the whole story.

  67. But calling themselves “no-kill” is a lot life pro-lifers calling themselves “pro-life”: it makes the alternative out to be “kill” and “anti-life” respectively – which is unaccurate and doesn’t tell the whole story.

    I think they call themselves no-kill shelters because people are more likely to bring a wayward dog with whom they’ve bonded to a shelter that isn’t going to euthanize them. The no-kill rescue group that I work with partners with the humane society to rescue otherwise healthy animals that are about to be euthanized simply because their time has run out. We rescue other animals, too, including animals that aren’t in the best shape, but we use most of our resources in the place where we can do the most good.

    Anyway, I was responding to an earlier comment; I think it’s silly to try to demonize no-kill shelters by saying that they’re fine with killing “as long as the blood is on someone else’s hands” like they’re some self-righteous, dog-hating buttheads.

  68. I agree that it’s wrong to demonize no-kill shelters; they’re still doing the best they can to help animals. I’m just saying the term itself is misleading, and kind of demonizes “kill shelters.”
    Luckily a lot of breed-specific rescue groups try to take about-to-be-killed animals from “kill-shelters.” These groups are overwhelmed, obviously, but they also do the best they can to adopt these guys out or at least find people to foster them.

    If anyone is interested in helping animals in some way, donating to breed-specific rescue groups is a very cool way to go. Many desperately need foster homes, as well. If you aren’t ready to take on a dog forever or don’t think you can afford it, rescue groups often pay for the dog’s food/medicine if you’ll foster it until someone shows interest in adopting. Though I’ll warn you, you might end up adopting it yourself. I started out as a foster mom for my dog and by day 2 I was certain I could not give him up.

  69. “when it comes to saving my niece, my SO, or my mother vs. saving my dog, my dog is going to be my choice, no questions asked.

    I simply like them more than I like humans. And I don’t think that’s an unethical view.”

    I think it’s an unethical view. I would prefer never to meet you, if those are your genuine opinions.

  70. Another very problematic issue is “designer dogs” – puggles come to mind (pugs & beagle). They are painfully cute puppies, and I see them everywhere these days. Sadly, they’re sold in pet stories for hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars – and as everyone seems to agree, pet stores are terrible.
    Furthermore, designer dogs often have health problems that result from the mixing of characteristics from the two mated breeds. Puggles, for instance, usually get the rambunctiousness of beagles and the nasal problems of puggles. So the puggles want to run and run but they can’t breathe while doing it. It’s messed up. Now, purebred dogs have their own health problems for sure, but the popularity of designer dogs is troubling because people often buy on impulse and treat the dogs like fashion accessories. I’m uncomfortable thinking about the influence people like Paris Hilton may have on other people who think it’s cute to get a dog (or 10) as a toy.

  71. when it comes to saving my niece, my SO, or my mother vs. saving my dog, my dog is going to be my choice, no questions asked.

    I simply like them more than I like humans. And I don’t think that’s an unethical view.

    No, this is unethical. I hope I am never so unfortunate as to be at your mercy.

  72. Good breeders don’t make money. Good breeders breed animals for health, raise them right, train them, get them good veterinary care, and pick and choose who deserves to purchase their animals for a fee that only barely covers their expenses. (Good breeders also hate backyard breeders, by the way.)

    Shelter animals need homes, and the fact that 10,000 or so cats are euthanised in my state alone every year sickens and saddens me. But I don’t think picking up animals who are the result of carelessness is the solution. Buying animals from people who’ve taken pains to ensure their mental, emotional, and physical health, who require you to spay and neuter them if they are not show animals, for a large sum of money represents a painstaking, time consuming, and life changing investment that I believe results in a greater bond between pet and person and more responsible care.

    I have nothing against rescuing shelter cats, and all of my pets have been gifts or come to us by chance, and I’ve even fostered and homed stray kittens myself, buying them food and veterinary care that I paid for but wasn’t paid back by the people to whom I gave them. Animals mean a hell of a lot to me, and it bothers me that people frown on breeders. Rescuing animals, in my experience, tends to engender a feeling in people that their animal is disposable. It comes from a large pool of animals that they feel are in desperate need of homes, but how many of these animals even have any concept of home? Many of them are physically and emotionally traumatised, and the kittens that everyone wants before they’ve learned how to behave around other cats are especially popular with people who stupidly think that animal will bond to them in place of a mother who would’ve disciplined them and taught them how to act around other cats (for the record, that happens at eight weeks, precisely when most people are giving them away. In an ideal world–and breeders know this–you should never take a kitten from it’s mother before 12-13 weeks).

    Now, people like me who plan to breed cats for the sake of creating healthy creatures who can bond with and enrich the lives of people who deserve them aren’t in it for the money. We’re in it for the animals. My cat, Casper, was a perfect example of giving a cat away too early. He was six weeks old, and our other two cats, who hadn’t left their mothers too early, rankled at the way he misinterpreted their body language. He is consistently and constantly the object of attacks from other adult cats. He doesn’t know what he’s doing wrong. He’s my world, though, and I love and treat him like a child. He came to me, and it doesn’t matter how. But he’s a perfect example of why I want to change the way people think about and go about owning and caring for their animal friends.

    So cats as sweet and smart as him can lead better lives.

  73. when it comes to saving my niece, my SO, or my mother vs. saving my dog, my dog is going to be my choice, no questions asked.

    I simply like them more than I like humans. And I don’t think that’s an unethical view.

    See, I do think that’s unethical. Much like the idea of a hypothetical pro-lifer saving the hypothetical embryos over the hypothetical child in the hypothetical fire.

    Saving your dog might be what you want to do, and what you genuinely would do, but that does not make it ethical. I can understand liking animals more than humans – humans can display incredible cruelty – but that does not morally exempt you from helping your fellow humans.

  74. We also microchip, vaccinate, spay and neuter

    Wait… what? Why would you chip an animal? How long have you been doing that? Whose idea was it?

  75. Wait… what? Why would you chip an animal? How long have you been doing that? Whose idea was it?

    In case you lose them, then you can find them if they’re picked up by another shelter.
    My dad and stepmother actually adopted a street cat that we named Mittens (She has extra fingers on her paws so she looks like she’s wearing mittens). At her last vet examination, the vet noticed that she was chipped but couldn’t read the chip. So we have no clue where she came from before my dad found her outside of the firehouse.

  76. A good shelter may well perform temperament testing — putting a dog in various situations to see if it is good with children or other animals and how it reacts to sudden noises, people reaching for its dish and so on:

    http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_Temperament.php

    Foster homes also often make observations that allow the shelter to find the best home for the animal. For example, there are some dogs who are afraid of men but not women, or are afraid of people in uniforms.

    Not everyone’s a fan of temperament testing:

    http://thebark.com/ezine/features_specialFeatures/specialFeatures_04.html

    It’s sad to think that many animals that might otherwise have been adopted won’t be, because they didn’t pass the tests, and might have been fine in a loving home, outside the stressful shelter. When resources for shelter animals are scarce, though, and people are likely to not want to keep a shelter animal who’s aggressive towards them or their family, it can help some animals get a home that otherwise wouldn’t.

  77. OK, stupid question probably, but I’m genuinely curious: where does the chip go? I’m imagining little X-Files alien/cat/dog hybrids running around with mind control implants in their brains (in my imaginings, the hybrids are very cute, but ever so vicious!). Oh, and also, what’s the point if the chip is illegible?

  78. Why do you feel the need to call your self sympathetic to a movement you are opposed to? It’s a little insulting.

    I also get frustrated with the assumption that if you’re okay with someone else getting a dog from an ethical breeder (see explanations of that term in comments 72 and 73, or go here for more info), you’re not really an animal lover and/or not really interested in animal rights. I have two dogs: one from a shelter and one a direct rescue from a reservation (she was a puppy with a broken leg, and was starving because she couldn’t keep up with the rest of the pack). I can’t see myself ever not having shelter dogs. But if someone else gets a dog from a responsible breeder, I’m not going to criticize her, and I’m going to be happy she’s found a companion she loves. I just don’t believe responsible breeders are the problem when it comes to the issue of the overpopulation of companion animals in this country.

  79. As the proud Mum of a rescued puppy mill breeder dog, I only have a couple of things to say in all of this: If you don’t want to contribute to the severe –and I mean severe–abuse of any dogs or cats, do not buy your next pet from a Pet Store. If you’re going the breeder route, investigate. There are more unethical breeders than ethical ones. This is why we now have so many hereditary diseases, hip dysplasia and early on-set cataracts, etc., are a direct result of unethical breeding practices.
    If the breeder’s cheap, that’s a big tell right there. If they don’t want you to go an inspect the property, that’s another one. Insist on references. Check out their credentials with the AKC.

    I’ve had adopted adult dogs and brand new pure breed puppies. Really, after about a week, you care for them the same. I wouldn’t go the puppy route again myself– way to much work! But I wouldn’t begrudge anyone else that experience.

  80. Huh, not sure what happened with the quoting there, but it was also supposed to contain Jill’s response to that question:

    I’m not opposed to it. I’m also not 100 percent in favor of it. I am, however, in favor of some of the same goals as animal rights activists. I think that, on the whole, their movement is a positive one. Hence, although I am not an animal rights activist myself, I am sympathetic to their aims. Can one really only be entirely for or against something?

  81. When I saw Jessica’s dog my first thought was “Oh, the affluent white woman bought herself a furry new toy. Isn’t. That. Nice.” I expect that’s where a lot of the invective on Feministing came from.

    Many of the comments I’ve seen here like animals-as-property, or how it’s silly to be worried about animal cruelty because of the genocide in Darfur, rub me raw because they are exactly the same arguments anti-feminists make. So animals are worth less than people. How much less? Is a person worth 10 cows? Or a thousand? How about a million? I’m not being facetious–there is a real societal cost involved here, that we collectively permit factory farming. Small time objectification leads to big time objectification. I think objectification of animals and objectification of people, while expressed differently, both stem from the unquestioning idea of natural right.

    People who have no actual need for them (vs say, farmers and sheepdogs) buying purebred dogs seems a lot like somebody driving around in their H3 or Land Cruiser, who will not ever get any mud on their vehicle. Yeah it’s your choice. But that doesn’t make it a responsible one. “Because I can.” is not a good enough reason.

    The thing is, how we look at dogs is how the people who run the planet look at you and I. As proof I offer Walmart and Microsoft’s employment practices, and the eugenics movement. Forced sterilization in people is a part of that. Chipping people (for our safety!) will be the next. How we treat our pets matters in that it reflects how we think of eachother. You can’t compartmentalize and say animal cruelty is A-OK because they’re not People. Your subconscious is just not capable of making that kind of distinction. For instance the nazis who staffed concentration camps were able to convince themselves it was OK because they looked at the inmates as not-real-people. Saying animals have a right to humane treatment prevents genocide, because it lowers the high water mark of permissible cruelty in general society. They are related.

    Also is it just me, or does her dog look a little… slow?

  82. where does the chip go?

    In my experience with ferrets, between the shoulderblades below the back of the neck. It’s like a particularly unpleasant vaccination (it’s a damned big needle for something as weeny as a ferret). The chip is generally not illegible, the example Moxie gave strikes me as equivalent to “the cat was wearing a collar but the tags had come off, so we didn’t know what number to call”. Usually the chip can be scanned for and read by a little handheld device kind of like a barcode reader that works on radio waves instead of light.

    My current pets (ferrets) are not chipped, because it’s very unlikely that a microchip would help them be returned to me — they wouldn’t do so well if they got out of the house unescorted, as we live on a busy street. If I were to get a cat or dog, who might run away and manage to survive long enough to be found and brought in to a vet or shelter, I would probably want to chip them in case of the collar and other ID being lost. My parents have an inside cat with a permanent case of wanderlust, who zips out the door for an adventure every couple of months, and I’m sure glad to know that if he slips his collar there’s a way for a vet or shelter to find out where to give him back to.

    Chipping my hypothetical future children, now, there’s a different idea altogether…

  83. The chip is between the shoulder blades on my cat too. He’s also got an ID tag with his chip number and the number of the company so if he’s found with his tags the chip doesn’t necessarily need to be read. I’ve got a tag with my cell number on it on there too, but the nice thing about the chip ID is that I can add alternate numbers in case I’m not reachable.

  84. Ugh, my apologies for the double-post; this one is on a different thread.

    Making a being work (or die) for your profit without that being’s consent is slavery, plain and simple. Call it something else if you must, but it is the same thing. There is no magic characteristic that humans have that makes it more wrong to violate their consent.

    I’m really interested by this. If humans have no magic characteristic that makes their consent inviolable, why, then, do they seem to be stuck with the equally magical requirement of respecting others’? Because, to pull an example that hovers near the top of my mind, my ex’s corn snake is sure not overly concerned with the consent of the mice it eats. Is predation slavery? It is causing another being to die for you without its consent, but I don’t often hear about the rampant slavery going on in the animal world. As much as it is unpleasant, all this death for eating, the snake’s only real choice in the matter is to starve itself to death. And then is not the mouse enslaving the snake for its own profit?

    I do wish we could make this kind of ruling — “coercing another being for your own profit is Wrong and shouldn’t be done”. But I don’t think it can be done without throwing morality into such sharp monochrome as to divorce it from any real-world applications. Anyone got ideas?

  85. There is no magic characteristic that humans have that makes it more wrong to violate their consent.

    How about “capacity for abstract thought that includes coming up with the very idea of consent in the first place”?

    While some animals are extremely intelligent, as far as I know, scientists haven’t found any that are capable of abstract thought in the way humans are. I wouldn’t call it magical, but it certainly seems to be a characteristic unique to humans. If I’m not sufficiently up to date on the scientific literature, feel free to correct me, though.

  86. “scientists haven’t found any that are capable of abstract thought in the way humans are.”

    That’s sort of contested territory. Animals like chimpanzees may be capable of pretty high levels of abstract thought. Ditto dolphins, which understand grammar at a pretty sophisticated level.

  87. OK, stupid question probably, but I’m genuinely curious: where does the chip go? I’m imagining little X-Files alien/cat/dog hybrids running around with mind control implants in their brains (in my imaginings, the hybrids are very cute, but ever so vicious!). Oh, and also, what’s the point if the chip is illegible?

    I’ve never had one of my animals chipped, but the vet found the chip in Mittens in her chest, I think.
    Different places have different chip readers and some aren’t legible at some places, which really does defy common sense. You’d think they’d be standardized. The vet couldn’t read Mittens’ chip, but said it was a commonly used brand from the west coast. That was a big “WtF” moment because my dad was working in New York City, on Staten Island, I think.
    I LoL’d at the X-Files reference. Now I’m imagining Mittens discovering her alien abduction.

    In my experience with ferrets, between the shoulderblades below the back of the neck. It’s like a particularly unpleasant vaccination (it’s a damned big needle for something as weeny as a ferret). The chip is generally not illegible, the example Moxie gave strikes me as equivalent to “the cat was wearing a collar but the tags had come off, so we didn’t know what number to call”. Usually the chip can be scanned for and read by a little handheld device kind of like a barcode reader that works on radio waves instead of light.

    That’s pretty much it. My dad just found Mittens lurking outside the firehouse where he worked when she was a kitten, so we really have no clue about her background or where she was before.

  88. “scientists haven’t found any that are capable of abstract thought in the way humans are.”

    That’s sort of contested territory.

    Yeah, that’s my understanding too. I know dolphins are extremely smart, some birds have intelligence levels of 3-year-old humans, and that monkeys can be taught abstract concepts like “same” vs. “different”. But I also know that it took MIT researchers 9 months to teach them those concepts (source). A researcher in that article said, “You can’t teach a monkey an abstract concept such as world peace.” – which is more along the lines of what I was thinking. Can animals philosophize, ponder ethics, etc? Is that not a unique characteristic of humans of the type that poster was looking for? A person understands the denial of freedom that violation of consent brings, and makes that violation much more traumatic.

    This isn’t to say we should treat animals poorly because of this. I am a huge believer in treating animals humanely. However, Jessica’s puppy doesn’t worry about what it might be doing, the places it might otherwise see, or the life it might otherwise have if it weren’t confined to Jessica’s house and yard. Such confinement would absolutely be more traumatic to a person. I think stuff like this is definitely on a scale on which it’s hard to draw a distinct line, but you can observe differences like that. Which is why we don’t worry about asking our intestinal flora for their consent in aiding the digestion of our food, or worry about their unfair confinement in our guts.

  89. Oops, misquoted the article. The bit about monkeys and world peace was in the main text, it wasn’t attributed to a researcher. Sorry for the mix-up!

  90. I guess it is a status thing. While it is all fine and proper to campaign for pet adoption and animal welfare and rights, it would be lowering yourself to the status of the masses to be seen with a mutt.

  91. To a lot of people who think its all wonderful to campaign for fashionable causes but would be horrified at the idea of having to change anything in their lives. A lot of who get their pets from breeders are in this category. Like people who want others to live in smaller houses but live in a 6000 ft house or those who think desegregation is just so awesome as long as it doesn’t happen around them or people should use more public transport but their own time is too precious to spend waiting for a subway.

  92. I do wish we could make this kind of ruling — “coercing another being for your own profit is Wrong and shouldn’t be done”. But I don’t think it can be done without throwing morality into such sharp monochrome as to divorce it from any real-world applications. Anyone got ideas?

    You really get to the crux of this whole issue, I believe, with your pedator-as-slave exploiter analogy Allie. We ALL must kill or exploit other living things in order to sustain our own lives. Some people will reconcile their distaste for exploitation and killing with their desire to survive and maintain a personally acceptable quality of life by making a distinction about how “high” on the food chain they will live (vegetarians), some make the distinction by minimizing the pain and suffering they cause (cruelty-free products, humane slaughter, etc.), some people “atone” for their exploitation or the exploitation caused by others through restorative means ( working with humane and rescue societies, adopting pets, etc.). I don’t think one way is better than another- I personally employ a mixture of all the above.

    I think being mindful of other beings and providing for their reasonable protection in our ethical and legal codes is about the best we can do. Our ability to think abstract thoughts does not negate the basic rules of life, and any “solutioion” to the “problem” of consumption or exploitation can never be fully effective. I take comfort in the knowledge that even as I now consume other things so I may live, other things will consume my remains to sustain their lives when I die.

  93. Building on Allie’s comment at 94: To me one of the unintended ironies of the “animals are ethically identical to people” argument is that the argument itself presumes a level of ethical behavior, foresight, and restraint that animals very rarely show to each other– not just in terms of predator/prey relationships, but also in terms of competing groups, outcast individuals, etc. If animals have as much moral right to exist as we do, then why do they not have as much moral obligation as we do? Conversely, why would we then have any *more* obligation to animals than any other species would? It seems to me that this equivalence argument actually opens the door to say that we *don’t* have any obligation to treat animals any better than animals treat each other.

  94. If animals have as much moral right to exist as we do, then why do they not have as much moral obligation as we do?

    If you study non-human primate behavior you see all sorts of stuff, from rape to murder to infanticide of the offspring of your rivals, to outright warfare. Will chimps be persecuted for war crimes? Will gorillas be persecuted for genocide?

  95. What always puzzles me about “animal rights” advocates is that the very activity of organizing to secure “rights” for animals is based on the notion that humans can “speak for” animals — animal rights activists think they know what animals want. It’s a really paternalistic movement in many ways, and I think it must be a relief for some of its supporters to have found a subaltern who can’t speak (and tell them when their views are bogus). It must be so much simpler to crusade for a group whose members can’t contradict their self-appointed leaders, or contest their leadership. (Frankly, I think any beagle could run PETA better than its present managers.)

    Obviously, I’m not an animal rights advocate. I’ve lived and worked with animals, raised and bred animals, trained animals, and slaughtered animals for food for too long to think that I, or any other person, is competent to voice their desires. What I am is a human responsibility advocate: I understand that because animals cannot speak, cannot operate politically in a human-controlled world, that it is incumbent on humans to care for them properly, to give them decent quality of life while they are living. (I’m opposed to factory farms, puppy mills and horse-racing, for example.) I also believe in the importance of bio-diversity for the environment as a whole and I care about the survival of species, from cute, furry harp seal pups to ant colonies in all their splendid variety.

    I’m not sure how many people in this discussion have ever slaughtered their own food, but I can assure you that one can love those cute little baby goats and kiss them on the nose and keep them feeling secure until the very minute the knife cuts their throat, without a single second of hypocrisy. One can cuddle fuzzy bunnies and then break their necks for supper, and soothe chickens before doing the same. This may not be a popular thing to say, but it’s quite true.

    It is completely possible (and I believe necessary) to respect the animals who give their lives for one’s sustenance, as it is necessary to respect the animals who add to our emotional lives by giving us companionship, or who aid us professionally by the work that they do. But they aren’t human beings, and I don’t think that pretending that they have human qualities and “rights” is any help in the process.

  96. I don’t understand what’s so hard about knowing what animals want.

    Dogs, for example, are easy. Unless they’re one of those sort of funny breeds, dogs want:

    Meat
    Attention
    Runs
    Sun
    Tummy rubs
    Water
    Mud
    Bones
    Conversation.

    Oh yes, and in my area, they also like
    Frontline
    because, ya know, fleas and ticks really suck (pun intentional.)

  97. Anyway, I was responding to an earlier comment; I think it’s silly to try to demonize no-kill shelters by saying that they’re fine with killing “as long as the blood is on someone else’s hands” like they’re some self-righteous, dog-hating buttheads.

    I’m demonizing “no kill” shelters because it’s a deserved call-out. Perhaps there are a few that operate in an upstanding way, but the majority of these types of shelters behave in ways just as I described. The problem is far more widespread than many “no kill” supporters would like to believe, and I think if you truly cared about saving animals, you’d do a little research into what these types of places actually practice. It’s not pretty.

    Also, nice use of “buttheads.” One of my favorite words.

  98. If animals have as much moral right to exist as we do, then why do they not have as much moral obligation as we do? Conversely, why would we then have any *more* obligation to animals than any other species would? It seems to me that this equivalence argument actually opens the door to say that we *don’t* have any obligation to treat animals any better than animals treat each other.

    Because rights and obligations aren’t the same. You don’t have to understand or even be aware of rights to have them, but it’s harder to claim that you can be said to have moral obligations if you’re not even capable of understanding what morality or obligations are.

    The fact that an animals might have rights doesn’t mean that they necessarily have obligations. In order to have moral obligations, we’d have to show that an animal has the ability to understand those obligations. You can’t claim that, say, a lion has an obligation not to harm another animal given that there’s no reason to believe that a lion has any concept of morality, and wouldn’t be capable of surviving if it didn’t kill and eat other animals.

    Generally: People have both moral rights and obligations, because people have the ability to understand and act on moral obligations. Thus, if we discover that some non-human entities are capable of understanding moral obligations, they ought to be held to some standard of moral behavior. Non-persons can still have rights, but can’t be said to have obligations, since it’s impossible for them to understand or act on obligations.

    I’m fine with thinking that animals have certain rights, and that we, as rational, moral beings have certain obligations (not to torture, for example) animals that they don’t necessarily have to us.

  99. OK, stupid question probably, but I’m genuinely curious: where does the chip go? I’m imagining little X-Files alien/cat/dog hybrids running around with mind control implants in their brains (in my imaginings, the hybrids are very cute, but ever so vicious!). Oh, and also, what’s the point if the chip is illegible?

    In dogs, generally between the shoulders.

    Last time I checked, there were two major pet microchip providers/registries. Most animal control departments and animal shelters have the readers for both–the companies at least used to supply them free of charge or low charge depending on the tax-exempt status of the organization.

    They’ve been around quite a while. Most of the major shelters in my area have been clipping for at least a decade; the rescue organizations for a few years.

  100. “scientists haven’t found any that are capable of abstract thought in the way humans are.”

    That’s sort of contested territory. Animals like chimpanzees may be capable of pretty high levels of abstract thought. Ditto dolphins, which understand grammar at a pretty sophisticated level.

    It’s far less contested than it used to be. We’re finding we have much more in common with other species than previously thought. We used to think humans were the only animal who knew about death. Wrong! Elephants know it and mourn over elephant graveyards. Some parrot species can actually talk (with a small vocabulary) but they’re not just “parroting,” they’re communicating in OUR language. If you think that’s not impressive, you try communicating in Parrot!

    And we’ve all read about great apes who sign.

    A lot of exciting findings have come out of the contemporary animal documentary field, their long term observations of animal behaviors and emotions while living in their natural habitats have revolutionized what we know.

    I believe people like to think animals don’t have emotions or sentience, etc., because it helps us distance ourselves from the way we treat them.

  101. I’m demonizing “no kill” shelters because it’s a deserved call-out. Perhaps there are a few that operate in an upstanding way, but the majority of these types of shelters behave in ways just as I described. The problem is far more widespread than many “no kill” supporters would like to believe, and I think if you truly cared about saving animals, you’d do a little research into what these types of places actually practice. It’s not pretty.

    As someone who knows full well how no kill shelters turn away certain animals, I still say you’re being way too hard on them. No kills are, by and large, volunteer organizations, funded through donations and, often, by the people running them.

    At the very least, they provide a lot more shelter. So fewer animals end up being put down and fewer animals end up dumped. That’s a net good, IMO.

  102. Animal suffering is not as important as human suffering.

    Part of morality is empathy. Isn’t an animal’s suffering as important to the animal as human suffering is to the human? Privileging human suffering over that of animals is as arbitrary as privileging, say, male suffering over female. That animal and human suffering might be different is no more to the point than that a man getting kicked in the groin is different than menstrual cramps — they’re both significant to the one experiencing them. We would never tolerate this sort of privilege when speaking of other humans.

    Well, beastiality is also often painful and torturous for the animal, so I’d say that counts for a lot in my opposition to it.

    And meat, dairy, and egg production aren’t painful and torturous?

    Your argument about confinement just proves my point, though — no animal can consent to being confined. My dog is confined and he definitely doesn’t consent to it. So what does that mean for pet ownership? For animal shelters, even? The animals aren’t there voluntarily, after all.

    We created domesticated animals. Like a parent who creates a child has an obligation to see to that child’s well-being until it can do so on it’s own, the human race has a moral obligation to ensure that they live as good a life as possible. However, domesticated animals are adapted for our companionship, so our homes is where they must be for us to meet that obligation. We also have a moral obligation not to keep breeding more animals that we will then be forced to confine. That’s just adding another wrong on top of the consent issue, which I agree is problematic — it’s a case of conflicting interests. But me grabbing you to stop you from stepping over a cliff is a case of conflicting interests, too. Choices aren’t easy.

  103. I think that all the limiting case arguments that always get made w/r/t the treatment of animals are specious, i.e. the whole “my child or the dog” argument. I mean, I think many people would agree that if they had to choose between saving the life of their child and saving the life of their dog they would choose the child. But that situation is a particular dilemma, not a prescriptive law that means animals have no consideration.

    Were I at the mercy of a crazed gunman who demanded that I choose between him shooting my husband or shooting any of you, it would kill me to make the choice but it would be one of you. That doesn’t mean in any way that I then am free to regard any of you as somehow less than my husband in rights or interests as another creature living on this planet as I go about living my life. And most of the time, as I do not exist in a Sophie’s Choice situation 24/7, I am free to make decisions based on a “my child AND the dog AND my neighbor AND the commenters” moral calculus. I mean, if we all crashed on a plane in the Andes, I don’t it would be wrong if the survivors ate the dead to survive, but I think we can all agree that just eating your neighbor cause you like the taste of “long pig” is wrong.

  104. I’m demonizing “no kill” shelters because it’s a deserved call-out. Perhaps there are a few that operate in an upstanding way, but the majority of these types of shelters behave in ways just as I described. The problem is far more widespread than many “no kill” supporters would like to believe, and I think if you truly cared about saving animals, you’d do a little research into what these types of places actually practice. It’s not pretty.

    The evidence that we both have is anecdotal. I’m sure there are unscrupulous no-kill shelters; but not all of them operate like this. The two that I have experience with in my area rescue dogs from the euthanasia list at the humane society; dogs that are healthy but haven’t been adopted because they’re too old or have mange or some other problem that, with treatment, wouldn’t prevent them from being adoptable. I know that ideally, we’d rescue all the dogs, I mean, ideally, we wouldn’t have to be doing this in the first place but in the situation, doing as much good as possible shouldn’t be discouraged.

    What do you think would be a better alternative to no-kill shelters?

  105. Jill, you pretty much articulate my exact position on animal rights.

    As far as shelter/rescue group adoption vs. buying from a breeder….I believe that browbeating and shaming will never make any converts. I personally am more pro-adoption than I am pro-buying from a breeder, especially as more of a cat person than a dog person (the cat overpopulation problem is huge, and fewer people are interested in having their cat be ‘purebred’ than are interested in a certain breed of dog). I would never fault anyone, especially a parent of a small child, for going with a known breeder rather than a rescue group for a large-breed dog. A friend of mine’s 7-year-old daughter had her ear almost torn off when the friend’s priorities-challenged ex brought unsafe rescue dogs around the little girl “as a way of seeing whether they take to children.” (She’s fine now, and she and her dad actually adopted a thoroughly vetted large-breed dog, the little girl is very brave to show love to the breed of dog that attacked her.) However, I’m still happy to talk people’s ears off when appropriate about the pet overpopulation problem and why it’s better to adopt if it’s at all workable for you.

    That said – I confirm what the one poster wrote about some rescue groups going overboard with vetting potential homes for their animals. My husband, when he lived with a prior girlfriend, told stories of how a cat rescue group refused to adopt out two cats to them because they both had fulltime jobs. And while I support the notion of a 100% no-kill future, without stiffer penalties for noncompliance in terms of spaying and neutering (i.e. England) this will never be workable. We adopted our cats from the local municipal shelter (NYCACC). Again, I have a hard time tut-tutting at someone who gets a Ragdoll or Siberian cat because of the qualities supposedly bred into those breeds (and yes, they sound adorable). But I will tell you it was very, very hard to go into that room full of beautiful adult cats, most all with very engaging personalities, coming to the fronts of their cages all begging for attention, and know that probably as many as 50% of them would be put down. And we had to choose two. And one of the two we chose was a discarded pet (owner moved and didn’t take him along) with the personality of, I kid you not, a Golden Retriever. The other was a formerly-abused quasi-stray. Yes, we had a few issues with her personality at first, resulting in nothing more than a couple of minor scratches. But with love and care, while she’s still not a cuddler, she has turned into a champion leg-cruiser, head-butter, talker, and ribbon-chaser.

    I’ll never berate anyone for adopting an animal from anywhere – animals enrich our lives – or even less would I direct any animosity towards a purebred animal for its own existence even though I know shelter pets are put down all the time. But I am always happy to talk about our cats, their back story and the deep emotional satisfaction we got from saving them. I think positive, not negative, is the way to go when spreading the word about pet adoption.

  106. We created domesticated animals. Like a parent who creates a child has an obligation to see to that child’s well-being until it can do so on it’s own, the human race has a moral obligation to ensure that they live as good a life as possible. However, domesticated animals are adapted for our companionship, so our homes is where they must be for us to meet that obligation.

    And this is one of the places where the analogy of animal ownership to slavery runs into really choppy waters. The second sentence I’ve quoted here is shockingly similar to what “moderate” apologists for slavery said about that institution in the early 1800s.

    If animal ownership is slavery “plain and simple,” then there can be no circumstances in which we have a “moral obligation” to perpetuate it. If we have a moral obligation to ensure that domesticated animals “live as good a life as possible” at the expense of those animals freedom and autonomy, then those arrangements are not slavery. Period.

    The questions of consent and autonomy that arise when a human interacts with a domesticated animal are different than those which arise when a human interacts with another human. That bare fact renders any attempt to analogize between slavery and animal ownership deeply problematic.

    As I said over at my own blog this morning, analogizing between divergent patterns of injustice is incredibly dicey, even in the best of circumstances. When it’s done casually, or when the facts on the ground are widely disparate, it’s pretty much impossible to do without giving justified offense. This isn’t just about the specific defects of the slavery analogy (or the invocation of cognitive disability that Elaine engaged in this morning over at her place), it’s a general principle of argumentation. That kind of analogizing is just a huge mistake.

  107. If you don’t want to contribute to the severe –and I mean severe–abuse of any dogs or cats, do not buy your next pet from a Pet Store

    May I say that this goes for guinea pigs, rabbits, mice, rats, hamsters – all the pocket pets – as well? If a pet store sells it, it’s in a rescue or a shelter near you, and if it’s not near enough to you there’s almost certainly someone who’ll help get it to you if you ask in the right places. It isn’t that you can’t get a perfectly nice rodent from the pet store, but that by so doing you are helping to perpetuate the system that put it there – also, pet stores generally suck as far as knowing diddly patoot about pet care (no, that cedar bedding they sell should not be used for any pocket pet. No, that pet store cage is not big enough for your rabbit or guinea pig. No, your rabbit or piggie cannot be fed only pellets). Petfinder is great, but not comprehensive.
    However, I can tell you, on the guinea-pig boards I frequent, that if someone new posts saying they got their piggie from a pet store nobody’s going to jump on and beat hell out of them for doing so. The ones who get lambasted are the ones who knew better – and still bought that piggie at the store, or won’t get it a companion, or didn’t check that they really had two girls instead of a boy and a girls, or won’t make a proper-sized cage.

    We used to think humans were the only animal who knew about death. Wrong! Elephants know it and mourn over elephant graveyards

    Not only that, but elephants will also mourn humans – but not other animals – in the same way they do dead elephants. Make of it what you will
    As to where I stand on animal rights and animal welfare, I am no vegetarian nor ever likely to be, and even if I were I’d still be buying meat for my cat, who cannot subsist on a vegetarian diet. It can cause an interesting mental dislocation to give house space to both herbivorous and carnivorous pets.

  108. Hi Gayle,

    I have to disagree — I think the abstract capabilities of animals are still really contested waters.

    For every story you get of, say, a chimpanzee using two words it knows to create a new, compound word (the creation of new words being one of the things that linguists say is unique to humans), you get a host of replies.

    First, you get people denying that’s what happened — they say the researcher is anthropomorphizing, or that the usage was accidental (and maybe they’re right about that, it can be hard to tell).

    Second, you get people moving the goalposts. We used to say the defining characteristic of culture was learned, transmitted information. Well, we have a lot of examples of that throughout the animal kingdom — let’s take elephants that, very deliberately, pass on the knowledge of where certain mineral deposits are located in their territory. The response to that is to say that the transmission has to happen in a certain way, or over a number of generations. If you get chimpanzees dipping fruit in the ocean to salt it, or sharpening sticks to hunt with, people will generally find ways to dismiss these as innovation. .

    So: I didn’t mean that I, personally, feel that the capacity for abstraction in some animals is contested. I mean that it is contested in academic communities that are tangentially related to animal behavior, such as anthropology or linguistics.

  109. The fact that an animals might have rights doesn’t mean that they necessarily have obligations. In order to have moral obligations, we’d have to show that an animal has the ability to understand those obligations. You can’t claim that, say, a lion has an obligation not to harm another animal given that there’s no reason to believe that a lion has any concept of morality, and wouldn’t be capable of surviving if it didn’t kill and eat other animals.

    The only problem with this argument is that it then negates the supposed rights of the animals getting attacked by other animals.

    Wouldn’t the orangutan female have a right not to be raped (or, as the research community terms it, ‘coerced copulation’)? Wouldn’t the chimp female have a right to mate with who she wants? Wouldn’t the baboon female have a right not to have her infant killed just because it had the wrong father? Wouldn’t the chimp male have a right to travel freely without being murdered?

    Or is it okay if they’re doing it to themselves? Then FGM is okay because the cultures practicing it are doing it to themselves.

    You can’t apply the language of rights to animals the same way you apply the language of rights to humans. It doesn’t mesh.

  110. And meat, dairy, and egg production aren’t painful and torturous?

    As a general rule, no. As practiced in big agra farming, sure. Let’s not conflate the two.

  111. I’m demonizing “no kill” shelters because it’s a deserved call-out. Perhaps there are a few that operate in an upstanding way, but the majority of these types of shelters behave in ways just as I described. The problem is far more widespread than many “no kill” supporters would like to believe, and I think if you truly cared about saving animals, you’d do a little research into what these types of places actually practice. It’s not pretty.

    I’ve volunteered for two kinds of no-kills: the first never euthanizes other than for terminal health reasons, and they turn away animals all the time (in fact, they have a waiting list for surrenders). The second kind, and I think the more common, is no-kill with a pretty big exception: the fine print says that they’re “no-kill for adoptable animals”. Which is to say that if a dog comes in with a history of aggression, or biting, or if it was used in dogfighting, it will be euthanized. Aggressive feral cats can also be euthanized. But they never turn away an animal. Which is better? Which is worse? I find it very difficult to make that call.

    Shelters, whether they never euthanize, sometimes euthanize, or euthanize as policy, are doing the best that they can. No one gets into shelter work out of anything but a desire to be of service: it’s dirty, depressing, nearly unpaid work that regularly exposes you to the worst features of your fellow humans. The upside, of course, is that you spend your time with delightful animals and, on most day, you make their lives better. But it’s a tough, tough job, and I’m hesitant to lay too much blame at the feet of organizations that have to stretch what resources they can get as far as animal shelters do.

    I’m also not one to judge breeders, though. As someone who plants heirloom vegetables and supports artisanal baker, cheesemakers and so on whenever I can, I think that ethical breeders who are concerned with the health and preservation of breeds are doing valuable work. I don’t choose to own purebreds, but I can understand why someone might, and I don’t think that, in most cases, it makes a damn bit of difference in the life of a shelter dog if someone chooses a purebred puppy. If people are interested in purebreds, their other option is not likely to be to go for the mutt. And that’s their loss: in my experience, mixed breeds are smarter, healthier, and more even-tempered than their engineered comrades.

  112. Correction: most shelter dogs aren’t there “because something happened” in the sense that something happened that’s going to matter in the slightest to a responsible owner who does their homework and goes into animal ownership capable of raising a dog and realistic about what dogs require. Shelter dogs are often in shelters because people are stupid. They get animals they don’t have time for, they get animals they don’t bother to research (beagles and jack russells and dalmations and pit bulls and labs, for example, which my local shelter is swamped with). Or heck, people get puppies — and then when they stop being cute and they get large enough that a total lack of training is a nuisance, they dump them. In other words, there are very few people who cannot get and enjoy a shelter animal unless they need very particular types of animals for work. Companionship is not a specialized type of work.

    Two aspects of these arguments really irritate me. First, the “it’s not feminism, so why are we discussing it?” argument. We’re discussing it because it’s public (posted on a public forum) and it’s important. I won’t make any comparisons to other groups that are treated poorly, but it is of great economic and humane importance that people make responsible decisions about when and where they obtain their companion animals. Because these decisions do have consequences, even if they are not your consequences. Thousands of unwanted animals are euthanized or starve, and thousands of municipalities pay a great deal of money to handle the consequences of unwanted companion animals.

    Second, the suggestion that we cannot judge a lifestyle decision. Well, to me it’s a lifestyle decision with enormous costs. It is not unlike buying clothing produced with sweatshop labor, enjoying bloodsports, buying conflict diamonds, or partaking of any other indulgence with unsavory consequences. You’re not directly killing an animal or exploiting anyone, but you know that these things occur and are fueled by your economic investment. Therefore it is better not to make that investment.

    And really, that’s all people can do. Make the better choice. I would hope that people who are so evidently interested in making the better choice when it relates to one category of being to do the same in general.

  113. When I saw Jessica’s dog my first thought was “Oh, the affluent white woman bought herself a furry new toy. Isn’t. That. Nice.” I expect that’s where a lot of the invective on Feministing came from.

    Oh, for fuck’s sake. Jessica can’t have a dog because she’s white/successful?

    And, y’know, I’ve never known anyone to have an animal who doesn’t think of it as a member of the family; I’ve never met one person who thinks of them as toys/’slaves’.

  114. The only problem with this argument is that it then negates the supposed rights of the animals getting attacked by other animals.

    No it doesn’t, because a right can only be imposed on something capable of accepting obligations. When you have a right, it’s honored by obligation. Moral beings have both rights and obligations. The most that a non moral beings can have are rights- they can’t have obligations, because there’s no way for them to even understand what that would mean. I have an obligation to respect your rights, as you have an obligation to respect mine. I have an obligation to respect the rights of any particular animal, too. That animal has no such obligation to me, because it can’t.

    Wouldn’t the orangutan female have a right not to be raped (or, as the research community terms it, ‘coerced copulation’)? Wouldn’t the chimp female have a right to mate with who she wants? Wouldn’t the baboon female have a right not to have her infant killed just because it had the wrong father? Wouldn’t the chimp male have a right to travel freely without being murdered?

    Only if they’re moral beings- if they have the capacity to understand what morality is, then yes. If not, then no.

    Or is it okay if they’re doing it to themselves? Then FGM is okay because the cultures practicing it are doing it to themselves.

    How, exactly, does this follow? Unless you’re suggesting that people who participate in FGM aren’t moral beings and are necessarily incapable of understanding moral obligations, then, no, it doesn’t really follow. What you’re suggesting is moral relativism, which isn’t the same thing. It’s not okay for animals to rape each other because “they’re doing it to themselves.” It’s permissable because they’re not moral beings. If it turns out that they’re moral beings capable of understanding moral obligations, and they continue to engage in immoral activities, I think you’re perfectly justified in being outraged. I don’t think it’s productive to be outraged about, say, a duck raping another duck, given that there’s no evidence that ducks are capable of understanding that behavior and not engaging in it. Just like you can’t expect a tiger not to eat meat.

    You can’t apply the language of rights to animals the same way you apply the language of rights to humans. It doesn’t mesh.

    I think you can’t apply moral obligations to most animals in the way that you can to most human beings, but I don’t think that means that they’re necessarily without rights. I think that the ability to recognize the rights of other beings is a pretty big part of what it means to be a moral being.

  115. Correction regarding: Wouldn’t the orangutan female have a right not to be raped (or, as the research community terms it, ‘coerced copulation’)? Wouldn’t the chimp female have a right to mate with who she wants? Wouldn’t the baboon female have a right not to have her infant killed just because it had the wrong father? Wouldn’t the chimp male have a right to travel freely without being murdered?

    What I meant by “Only if they’re moral beings- if they have the capacity to understand what morality is, then yes. If not, then no.” is that, if they’re moral beings they have an obligation to each other. If they’re not, they don’t. I think that, as moral beings, yes, we have obligations not to waltz in and kill baboon infants. I took your question to be more about baboon treatment of other baboons, but thought I should clarify, anyway.

  116. I volunteer at a city animal shelter weekly, and it helps me understand why animal rights activists can be as crazy as they sometimes are. The situation is bad. It’s unbelievable. It’s endless. No matter how many animals you adopt out, there’s always more, more, more, we’re just crammed with them. Wonderful animals too – sweet, beautiful dogs and gorgeous cats that I can’t imagine ever dumping on the street or in a dumpster or in the river and yet it happens constantly. It breaks your heart, I’m telling you. Animal control will bring in these skinny starving dogs who have never heard a kind word in their lives, and you wouldn’t believe how much they brighten up and how happy they are to be fed and loved. We get animals from breeders who are busted by animal control for horrible conditions, suddenly we have dozens of purebreds who are fearful and undersocialized. We get animals who have been beaten. We also get wonderful pets whose owners died suddenly and there was noone else to take them – but they’re 15 years old and nobody wants an elderly cat who will die soon anyway, so they sit there in the shelter for months. We get strays who have wandered into construction sites or into the street and lost a leg or an eye as a result. We get many, many pitbulls who are sweet as pie but are terribly difficult to adopt out because ordinances and landlords will forbid them. You send one cat home with somebody, there are three in the back waiting to take its place, and five more coming in the door as surrenders from owners who are moving, or sick, or just don’t want them anymore. Our shelter spays and neuters EVERY animal, without exception. Microchips every animal. Vaccinates every animal. It’s a brand new facility, bright and cheery and clean and staffed with people who really GET animals, who can evaluate animals and see which homes are appropriate to their needs and could handle their behaviors. And it’s still hard to come in week after week, because it just doesn’t stop. It feels kind of like bailing out a sinking boat with a teaspoon. So I understand why someone would be hyper-sensitive to mention of breeders, because we try awfully hard to find homes for these animals.

    Anyway, I just wanted to say while the topic is up and going, two things: from first-hand experience, there are GREAT animals at these shelters who would make great pets, and if my boyfriend didn’t stop me I would take them home myself.. 😉 They are not all sick or traumatized, they are not all feral (we usually advise people to leave feral cats alone), many of them ARE purebred and were surrendered or dumped or removed from their home. And (because I get lots of questions about this at the shelter) any fees you pay for their adoption go towards the care of that animal, it’s not profit like at a pet store. A good shelter will vaccinate, deworm, microchip, and spay/neuter the animals, and that’s what you pay the fee for.

    Secondly, if you’re an animal lover and not in the market for a new pet, animal shelters need volunteers and they need DONATIONS. If you have towels, sheets, blankets, pillowcases, that are not torn but old and used, bring them to a shelter. We line the cages with them and if they smell like people, great! Dogs will love them. It will be well used, and it is always needed. Plus any old pet stuff you might have for a pet you no longer care for (like a doggie bed, or a stockpile of food) would be so much appreciated. Bleach, laundry detergent, and waterless hand sanitizer are also crucial. All of these things we get solely from donations and we couldn’t get by without them.

  117. I think you can’t apply moral obligations to most animals in the way that you can to most human beings, but I don’t think that means that they’re necessarily without rights. I think that the ability to recognize the rights of other beings is a pretty big part of what it means to be a moral being.

    Well then we agree, at least about that. I think humanity has a moral obligation to treat other living things humanely.

    But I also think there’s humane ways to keep pets, humane ways to raise and slaughter livestock, humane ways to have draft animals, etc., etc. I don’t think animals have the right not to be killed or attacked or held in bondage whatever the same way humans have those rights. Otherwise we would all have the moral obligation to intervene to stop rights violations all over the primate order, not to mention the entire animal kingdom.

  118. I’ve volunteered for two kinds of no-kills: the first never euthanizes other than for terminal health reasons, and they turn away animals all the time (in fact, they have a waiting list for surrenders). The second kind, and I think the more common, is no-kill with a pretty big exception: the fine print says that they’re “no-kill for adoptable animals”. Which is to say that if a dog comes in with a history of aggression, or biting, or if it was used in dogfighting, it will be euthanized. Aggressive feral cats can also be euthanized. But they never turn away an animal. Which is better? Which is worse? I find it very difficult to make that call.

    I want to second your entire post Erin and espeically this part. My shelter is MSPCA which does have a euthanization policy very much like the second option you described. On the other hand, the no-kill shelters in the city are FULL and turn away animals, while our shelter turns no one away. What gets my goat is, the no-kill shelters will come to our shelter to “rescue” some of our cats and dogs (which the shelter allows happily) but they ONLY take the most adoptable ones of all. They don’t take the ones that are in danger of euthanization because of behavior problems and they don’t take old animals or the ones who have languished there for six months. They take the ones that will find homes quickly for sure, to keep their sucess rate up. I wish we could work together more smoothly without having to do a “more progressive than thou” game. We’re all doing the best we can – nobody wants to euthanize animals. There are just so many.

  119. Additionally,

    If it turns out that they’re moral beings capable of understanding moral obligations, and they continue to engage in immoral activities, I think you’re perfectly justified in being outraged. I don’t think it’s productive to be outraged about, say, a duck raping another duck, given that there’s no evidence that ducks are capable of understanding that behavior and not engaging in it.

    I honestly don’t know anything about ‘coerced copulations’ in ducks, but I can tell you that the orangutans I have observed (well, via both academic films and national geographic-type documentaries in class) give every indication of understanding their behavior, if not in moral terms, then in terms of the males knowing if they’re caught by the alpha male they’ll get in trouble, and the females knowing what’s happening to them is *not* something they want to be happening to them. She will try to fight off the male to the point of risking falling to her death (orangs are arboreal). If the mother has a juvenile with her, it will help her try to fight the male off.

    I think my problem comes with, not necessarily anything you’ve said Roy, but with the “Well they suffer just like humans” line of thought. I don’t think the primate mother who had her infant taken away and killed by rival males and the primate mother who had her infant taken away and sent to another zoo (or whatever other example) suffer any differently. So it seems kind of arbitrary to me for (some) animal rights activists to get up in arms about one but not the other.

  120. Okay, owning or in anyway exploiting any animals for any reason is akin to slavery. My question: what is anyone supposed to do about it?

    I mean, we ARE talking about a horrible evil, so well-reasoned philosophical discussions can only be a starting point–and not a particularly effective one at that, since the average ‘Murrican will just laugh and call you a commie symp faggot.

    Let’s not forget, for all the fine words composed by abolitionists, it finally took a very grisly war to end the scourge of human slavery in this country.

    So, what exactly is the Action Plan here, apart from well-honed stroking of righteousness? What, for example, am I supposed to about my cat? If I keep her, I’m collaborating so do I throw her out of the house? What if she wants back in? Do I ignore her because it’s better that she live freely? Or am I guilty of paternalism, making decisions on her behalf?

    What is my behavior to be towards other pet owners? I mean, we know exactly what kind of person I’d be if I consorted with slaveowners, so do I cut myself off from anyone who enslaves an animal? I suppose I could lecture them about the evil of their ways, but then they’d simply cut me out of their lives anyway.

    And is it simply enough to ignore slaveowners? Slavery wasn’t abolished because slaveholders felt lonely.

    And aren’t I still collaborating with a system that okays slavery? I mean, refusing to consort with slaveowners isn’t exactly striking a blow against The Man.

    And really, that’s just the least of it. I will have to become a vegan, but how morally pure is the system that delivers my food? How many slaveowning/animal exploiting people package the food and drive the trucks, for example? Don’t they need to be weeded out, rather than be rewarded for their evil views through continued employment?

    Speaking of employment, what kind of person does it make me if I work for any company that condones slavery? Do I have to research that no one enslaves animals? What if co-workers eat meat? Do I just shrug my shoulders and allow them their personal choice–to aid and abet an intolerable evil?

    And don’t we need to strike a blow against more than affluent White women of a certain age? What is anyone doing about biker gangs, for example? Lots of meat-eating people wearing leather in any given biker bar. They may very well enslave animals as well. Anyone going to do anything about it? What about sports stars or rappers who wear fur? Anyone?

    And what about vetenarians? Aren’t they in the forefront of aiding and abetting a system of unparalleled evil? What is anyone going to do–show up at the office and reason with these nasty pieces of excrement? Is that what you would have done with, say, the commander of a concentration camp?

    What. Exactly. Are. We. Supposed. To. Do?

    Not talk about. Not lecture about. Not righteously masturbate about.

    DO.

    Who’s chaining themselves to farm fences? Who’s destroying the local pet shelters (major slavery enablers)? Who’s passing legislation to ensure that anyone enslaving or benefiting from the existence of animal in any way goes to prison? Who’s taking on biker gangs? What about car dealers–lots of cars have leather seats.

    What, in short, is anyone actually prepared to RISK, to DO, to end this scourge?

  121. Well, since someone else already Godwinized ….

    For instance the nazis who staffed concentration camps were able to convince themselves it was OK because they looked at the inmates as not-real-people.

    Actually, the Nazis felt that animals were more important than some humans. That’s why animal experimentation was banned but human experimentation was a-okay.

    It always amazes me how many animal rights people bring up the Nazi comparison without realizing they’re actually taking the same side as the Nazis.

  122. thank you for the WONDERFUL post…i have been reading here for a while and haven’t commented until just now…i wanted to write my own piece on this…but couldn’t put it as well thought out and coherently as you did! you pretty much nailed every point on my mind (even in a way, the comment i left on feministing that was misquoted on another blog…where i asked why we had to scold someone for everything they do, not question them. why can’t we just enjoy the cute pictures of someone’s happiness?).

    i too really sympathize w/ animal rights…i was a vegetarian for years…no meat may not be necessary…we can live w/o it (most of us that is), but i don’t chastise people for eating it. what is the point of that? we are scolding someone for something we don’t agree w/…and it isn’t going to get them to change…but now they like our point even less.

    i don’t equate animal rights w/ feminist issues. i can see where some people do, but i don’t. i support spaying and neutering, but have always wondered why people who don’t want to treat animals as property and slaves say it’s ok to do this to an animal w/o their consent…when all the other points are about treating the animals as equals. i don’t agree w/ eveything that PeTA does, but i support a lot of their campaigns…we really need to be careful of the (as someone above put it so well) footprint we leave on the planet. i loved their “i’d rather go naked than wear fur” campaign. clever. some would say if i liked it i am a bad feminist…i would disagree. fine.

    i also really think that human life is more important…but that part of that is being responsible to helping to take care of theses animals b/c they can’t always do it themselves. animals aren’t people. if i had an animal and it attacked my child, i would choose my child’s safety any day. that is why i brought up the thought “what about people who need to be certain that a companion (which IMHO is what a pet is) fits into his or her life?”

    i loved all my shelter animals, but a person never really knows what they are taking home until they get it home. even well meaning shelter workers might not tell you the whole truth about an animal so you will adopt it. they aren’t being malicious…but trying to help the poor thing find a home…that happened to me w/ the last dog i had. but she was wonderful despiter her problems. here in hawaii we have a feral cat problem. some well meaning people actually take them in to shelters, and they do get adopted…and these animals have a real problem adjusting to co-habitating w/ humans…

    that was b/f i had a child. now i would have to be certain of what i was bringing home. a pet would HAVE to be compatible. i think a breeder can be a responsible option if well researched. i understand that it could prevent another animal from getting a home…maybe not…if i have to be sure of what i am getting for my daughter’s sake…i might not get an animal at all now if i couldn’t get from a breeder.

    before i ramble on…thanx again…

  123. lizvelrene touches on a good point: pet owners (guardians, whatever) need to plan what will happen to their pets if they die. Otherwise they will end up in a shelter, where, if they’re not young and cute, they will probably be put down.

  124. Fredegunde, terrific comment. I particularly liked this:

    If I keep her, I’m collaborating so do I throw her out of the house? What if she wants back in?

    Ohhh, it’s funny ’cause it’s true. And I particularly like a point someone raised very, very early in the thread- who’s agitating for fish ? And snails ? And bugs ? One gets the sense that Dennis Leary was correct, when he did that routine about animals-

    “I’m an otter, I do adorable human-things with my hands and frolic all day.”
    “You can go.”
    “I’m a cow-”
    “You’re a baseball glove ! Get in the truck !”

    We’re comfortable with making decisions and judgements regarding the relative worth of animals versus other animals; and we make those judgements every day. We swat bugs, we ignore the plight of overfished ecosystems, even as we put SPCA bumper stickers on our cars and vow only to adopt unwanted animals. There’s a relative judgement being passed even on bred versus shelter animals- didn’t a poster already say that Monty looks “slow” ? I mean, are you kidding me ? He looks loved, that’s how he looks. He looks well-treated. He looks like he’s enjoying the best kind of life an animal bred for centuries for ownership and domesticity can hope for.

    Dogs are not wolves. They were bred for human companionship, upon which they rely. To pretend anything else is to ignore the origin and purpose of the dog.

  125. Wow. I’m new here, so take this for what it’s worth, an outsiders perspective. But here we go…

    There doesn’t seem to be a lot of acknowledgment above that analogical reasoning is, well, analogical. When you say X is like Y you aren’t saying X is Y in all respects, you aren’t saying X is as important as Y, and you aren’t saying anyone who doesn’t see that X is like Y is a fool and a heretic. Nor does Y’s being compared to X somehow undermine Y’s claim to being unique and different in all kinds of other ways that aren’t directly related to the issue at hand — no one can talk about all the important issues there are at the same time. We’re all stuck with singling out certain issues for treatment at some times and turning to others, just as or even more important and pressing, at other times.

    Is our treatment of animals in this culture like slavery? Yes, and it is in ways that Elaine has been at pains to emphasize. It’s about property. All the nice things that people have said in this and other sites’ posts about their moderate and sensible animal ethics (“I’m very sympathetic to the animal rights cause. I was a vegetarian for eleven years. As a kid, I wrote letters to Proctor & Gamble protesting their animal-testing policies. I make an effort to buy cruelty-free make-up and other beauty products…”) simply fail to recognize this deep point of the comparison. All our nice words about how we love animals are pretty much made irrelevant in law and policy by the fact that the animals we feel so kindly towards are, in the end, our property and so their interests will always — until they’re recognized as beings in their own right, not property — be traded off against human property rights. There are important similarities here to the history of both slavery and feminism — kindly attitudes towards women and blacks aint enough when, legally, we still treat them as property. And yes, the same holds with animals: it’s a valid and important analogy that deserves more serious consideration than its been given thus far in people’s rush to distance themselves from controversial and “extreme” analogies which no one ever claimed held in all respects. For more on animals and problems with their status as property check out Gary Francione’s work and website, or Steven Wise. (e.g., http://www.animal-rights-library.com/texts-m/francione01.htm or http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/. Steven Wise’s work is easy to find on Amazon.)

    And speaking of the repeated charge that Elaine has been too “extreme,” whenever I find myself tempted to level such a charge in a debate between people of apparently good will I always, as a matter of policy, try to think of King’s letter from the Birmingham Jail. If that wasn’t the most profound statement of what’s wrong with moderates leveling the charge of moral extremism against people who are pushing us all to expand the boundaries of our moral horizons I’d like to know what tops it. So there’s another connection between our treatment of animals and the long, tragic, and ongoing history of racism in this culture. King got it right, moderates can be infuriating roadblocks to moral progress, and his point doesn’t apply only to racism. Moderates “allies” are more infuriating at times than out-and-out opponents since they claim to be “on your side” and to “get it” even as they undermine efforts to take serious issues seriously or to handle them head on. I fear being among the moderates King takes to task more than I fear charges of extremism. Moderate people of good will are as often as not more damaging to the causes they claim to support than out-and-out bigots. Are Elaine’s statements extreme? Yes. But… I’m tempted to say it would be a greater failing if they weren’t. The issues really are that serious — not as serious as racism mind you, just deadly serious for literally billions of sentient beings who are currently regarded as property under the law. That’s all.

  126. I think my problem comes with, not necessarily anything you’ve said Roy, but with the “Well they suffer just like humans” line of thought. I don’t think the primate mother who had her infant taken away and killed by rival males and the primate mother who had her infant taken away and sent to another zoo (or whatever other example) suffer any differently. So it seems kind of arbitrary to me for (some) animal rights activists to get up in arms about one but not the other.

    I see the point you are making, but I don’t think this “arbitrariness” (I don’t actually think it is that arbitrary) is unique to animal rights activists or animal welfare activists. We do the same thing with people.

    Suppose I tell you about my mother who had breast cancer a few years ago and had a two separate mastectomies (both breasts removed) within a month of each other and then full hysterectomy for fear of uterine/ovarian cancer. You feel bad for her right? Now suppose I tell you that that a fully functioning mentally normal adult human being knocked my mother out three times and forcibly removed her breasts and reproductive organs. I’m guessing now in addition to feeling bad for her, but feel outrage at the monster who would do such a thing. (Or at least that’s how I feel when I compare what actually happened–the former case–to the hypothetical latter case.)

    Now of course it’s probably the case that my mother would suffer more and differently in the latter case, but I don’t think that’s what is behind my outrage. My outrage (rather than my anger or my sadness or empathy) only gets engaged when I believe that someone who has the capacity for morally responsible is responsible for what happened to her either by causing it or by failing to prevent it. I think that is the very nature of some of our moral concepts like outrage, guilt, and contempt–they presuppose that there is not just a bad state of affairs, but someone who committed a wrong or did not meet an obligation by causing or failing to prevent the state of affairs. No one committed a wrong against my mother by causing or failing to prevent her breast cancer–there is nothing to be outraged about there.

    So similarly with animals, I think it’s clear to everyone (I hope) that most animals are probably not capable of being morally responsible in the way that most adult humans are. (I think primates are closer to having some kind of morality–I’ve seen some moral philosophers refer to it as “pseudo-morality” because it seems to be largely based on understanding and following the social rules or and being rewarded/punished by other primates accordingly. But the ability to step back and ask, “But is this rule that all my fellow primates accept a good rule?” seems to be absent, and that ability seems to be one of the hallmarks of human moral capacity.) Hence, usually there is no one to be outraged at when a lion torturously kills and eats another animal. There is someone to be outraged at when a person torturously kills and eats an animal.

    Of course, there is still a question of why no one is trying to intercede in the huge amount of animal suffering that animals perpetrate on one another every day. Even if there is no outrage and no one responsible, shouldn’t the suffering count for something? I assume the answer here might be one of practicality. I just don’t see how most of the suffering that animals perpetrate on each other could be prevented–preventing it would seem to either require extinction of many species or would require so much human intervention in animal habitats and communities that we would cause even more suffering that way. I mean, what would we do–put every individual animal in a bubble? Deny them any contact with any other animals? (That in itself would probably be much more tortorous than the painful death they might suffer at the paws of a predator.) Take the old animals who die or who are euthanized and use their flesh to feed the other animals? Feel the ones who can survive w/out meat soy and corn? There might be smaller things that we could do to prevent some kinds of animal-on-animal suffering. But I think it’s just a fact about the world that we can’t stop it on the large scale without causing a whole lot more of it (and probably messing up the entire ecosystem of the world). I don’t think it’s arbitrary to admit that and to still be outraged when humans cause animals suffering–no more than it is arbitrary to be absolutely outraged if someone cut off my mother’s breasts and just be a little sad when cancer requires cutting them off.

  127. activistgradgal – It’s true what you say about your mother (hope she’s better!) but she, in the case where she consents to the surgery, understands and consents to what’s going on. In the case where a monstrous stranger just hacked out her body parts, she doesn’t understand or consent.

    But the chimp mother doesn’t understand or consent in either the case where infanticide is committed by other chimps or baby kidnapping is committed by humans. And your well-worded description of non-human primate morality (as an internalization of norms) is pretty accurate for human primate morality too, I think.

    I don’t think animals should be treated inhumanely. I have pretty big problems with puppy mills and abused performing animals (circus, TV, movies, etc) animals and factory farm conditions. But I do think there are humane ways to do all of these things.

    Also, to introduce another angle to it, there are many people in the world dependent on draft animals or herd animals for survival. Here in the West it’s relatively easy to get by without relying on animals, but for those people it’s not really a viable choice.

  128. re: activistgradgal

    In the historical case of sterilization in humans the situation has always been one in which privileged humans attempt to force sterilization on less privileged humans to the benefit of the privileged and the detriment of the unprivileged. Not so in the cat and dog case, though–it’s not like the purebreed dogs are trying to wipe out what the consider inferior dogs by denying them the ability to breed while encouraging the purebreeds to have all the puppies they like.

    The situation IS actually like that. We sterilize the unwanted and less desireable pets because we don’t want more of them. Simple. In humans, the “privleged” are desired. Most people want to be wealthy and successful and self sustaining and demanded and useful. The other group, the group that humans tried to sterilize were sterilized because those in power didn’t want to pay for the burden of masses of poor, un-successful, non-self-sustaining, undemanded, and un-useful people.

    Exactly the same situation. It’s just that being elitist, racist, and sexist is not frowned upon in the dog world. People buy pets based on their looks, their coat colors, and their gender. ALL THE TIME. It is the rise of the purebred dog and the raised price of the purebred dog that has done much to curb the pet over population problem. When people valued what they saw as quality breeding, any old stray or ferral dog wouldn’t do.

    We practice eugenics with dogs, doing so with humans gets you tarred and feathered. We are perfectly fine with measuring dog’s ability against other breeds and making blanket statments. Doing so with races of humans makes you evil and racist.

    Both situations are driven by market forces. Those who have make the buying choices. And in the case of dogs, those who have want purebred dogs, and more often than not they keep them and they don’t end up in shelters. Simply because of the perceived value of pure bred-ed-ness. Statistically a dog is less likely to end up in a shelter if it is purebred (having nothing to do with behavioral/health/or any other issues, all those things factored out, the mere quality of being a single breed), if the owner payed more than $100 for it, and if it is spayed or neutered.

    Almost all of the top 10 reasons dogs get sent to shelters have to do with stupid people getting rid of them for stupid reasons. Nothing to do with responsible breeders, and only number 10 has to do with breeding at all… and is clearly for mistake backyard breeders:

    1. Moving
    2. Landlord Issues
    3. Cost of Pet Maintenance
    4. No time for pet
    5. Inadequate vacilities
    6. Too many pets in home
    7. Pet illness
    8. Personal problems
    9. Biting
    10. No homes for littermates.

    Cats
    1. Too many in house
    2. Allergies
    3. Moving
    4. Cost of Pet Maintenance
    5. Landlord Issues
    6. No homes for littermates
    7. House spoiling
    8. Personal problems
    9. Pet illness
    10. Inadequate facilities

    So the next time you think about blaming a breeder, look at reasons 1-9. Then avoid the mistake backyard breeder (probably making mix breed puppies that can’t be sold for any money, thus no homes) and avoid THEM.

    Avoiding breeders altogether is silly. The ideal situation is responsible pet owners buy from responsible breeders and keep their pets. There isn’t an overpopulation of PUPPIES, there is an overpopulation of adult dogs that OWNERS ABANDON. The blame for this lies in stupid owners, not in breeders.

    And it’s good that they make money at it. They perform a good service and they should be rewarded and encouraged.

  129. Seems to me there are two issues here: 1) whether humans should have companion animals, and if so, 2) whether it’s right or wrong to obtain a companion animal from a breeder.

    As far as the first point:

    Dogs are not wolves. They were bred for human companionship, upon which they rely. To pretend anything else is to ignore the origin and purpose of the dog.

    This is pretty much how I see it. We can’t just turn our pets loose and see what happens. Us humans – male/female, black/white, rich/poor – have made these animals dependent upon us and we have an obligation to care for them. I guess I see it more as an evolutionary biology thing than a patriarchy thing.

    And, on the second point, if it’s parellels of ownership and commodification that make this a feminist issue, then, I guess I don’t understand why it matters where the person actually got their pet from. If they own it, they’re oppressing it. So, I also don’t get why one would make an allowance for one purveyor in oppression over another.

  130. I would like to point out to all of the shelter-advocates (which I am as well) one of the BIGGEST REASONS people (at least in my local vicinity) choose against adopting from a shelter/rescue:

    They are a giant pain in the ass to deal with.

    Where I live, most (not all, but a vast majority) of the shelter/rescue groups are what I like to refer to as Stepford Nazis. They have the same reaction to dog ownership as they do to having children: if you don’t have a giant backyard and aren’t home 99 percent of the time, then you’re a completely unsuitable “parent” and we won’t consider adopting to you for five seconds.

    In other words, if you work a regular job and live in a nice apartment in the city (in my case, across from a fantastic Frederick Law Olmstead park that is incredibly dog-friendly!), then forget it. You simply aren’t suitable for a dog.

    In addition to this, my boyfriend (who, up until recently, was only considering rescues), who while lives in the same building as me but is a college professor, therefore has a more flexible schedule (though he’s still heard the “no backyard” wank), after specifically explaining that while he was not adverse to getting a dog that was not a puppy, he did not, under any circumstances, want a dog older than five years. His reason being that his parents two German Shepherds, which he adored, died within less than a year of one another not two years ago. And, really, it doesn’t matter WHAT his reasoning was – the rescues he was working with simply ignored his request. In the meantime, there were plenty of

  131. It seems half of my comment got eaten! Anyway, here was the rest of it:

    … And, really, it doesn’t matter WHAT his reasoning was – the rescues he was working with simply ignored his request. In the meantime, there were plenty of

  132. Third time a charm perhaps? And I apologize if this is simply browser issues …

    In the meantime, there were plenty of dogs available that fit his request, none of which the rescuers (for inexplicable reasons) were willing to place with him … meanwhile, six months later, many of these dogs are STILL up for adoption, no doubt having had (rejected) inquiries from people such as my boyfriend, who would also be good dog-parents.

    Another friend had the same issues, and ended up getting a shih-tzu puppy from a breeder.

    I just want to know how it is these rescue organizations expect people to afford these houses with big backyards, in addition to veterinary bills and kibble, and NOT work full time …

  133. Sounds like your rescue orgs are assholes. But that doesn’t mean they all are. I have four dogs. Two are rescues — and neither was hard to acquire given that I could demonstrate a basic ability to care for them.

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