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Can We Talk About Porn Without Having the Same Fight Over and Over?

Here’s hoping we can.

Like the other stuff I’ve been posting about, I bring this up because I’ve been thinking a lot about it lately and because my opinions are shifting and I’m not exactly sure where they’re headed.

I don’t want this to be about anyone’s personal habits and what they mean and whether they’re defensible from a feminist POV. ‘Cause that’s been done to death and frankly, it’s boring. But obviously it doesn’t make sense to start this kind of discussion without laying out where I’m coming from, so I’ll dispense with it quickly: I am a fairly regular user of porn (upcoming links probably NSFW). Not generally the kinder, gentler material that’s made “for women” and called “erotica.” And not always the feminist, binary-questioning, politically aware stuff or the let’s-objectify-nekkid-hipster-boys thang either. Sometimes I like some mainstream smut (/NSFW links).

However, I’m not interested in pretending that there’s no conflict between this and my fervent belief that media images matter. If I think it’s necessary to consistently interrogate what pop culture in general says about women and femininity (and I do, duh), I can’t ignore that porn is—to put it mildly—problematic. As is true regarding a lot of things I love but have (mostly) given up for health and many other reasons, I’m willing to trade pleasure for living more closely aligned with my values. Nor am I interested, though, in arguments that porn as a category is inherently evil, or destructive, or antifeminist, simply because it involves women’s bodies in a sexual context.

I’ve been looking for some contemporary porn-critical analysis that is nuanced, that doesn’t judge or deny women’s sexual desire when that desire doesn’t conform to sugar-and-spice-and-everything-nice claptrap, that doesn’t give a definition of pornography guaranteeing the circular reasoning of “porn is material that harms women, so it harms women,” and that doesn’t valorize superconservative notions of ideal relationships. ‘Cause those arguments won’t help me or any other porn consumers (or boycotters, for that matter) who have thought about these issues for more than five minutes hack our way through the thicket of excruciatingly difficult political and ethical questions that pornography poses.

And, even though I still agree with them, neither will the standard arguments on the other side. Yes, yes, there are plenty of ladies who like—and make, and like to make—porn. Sure, mainstream Hollywood movies and TV shows often send messages about gender and sexuality and body image that are just as hideous, yet no one argues that filmed entertainment is by its nature bad for women. We all know that any actual legal action against pornography is going to be constitutionally troubling and impede access to queer and feminist writing. Because they don’t even begin to substantively address labor exploitation in the sex industry. Because it’s too easy to slide into relatively simple-minded analyses.

We—and by “we” I mean feminists who fall anywhere and everywhere on the pro/anti continuum—desperately need to get past this impasse. But how, when it’s so hard to actually occupy the middle of that continuum? My own experiences trying to hang out there have only pushed me further out toward the pole again, throwing up my hands at the way all attempts to engage seem to lead inexorably to defensiveness, rigidity, and impugning of other people’s sexuality and life choices. And how can anyone not get even more defensive and rigid when called—NB: inaccurately in 99.44% of all cases—a withered sex-hating prude or a slutty brainwashed sexbot?

Both sides need to stop freakin’ out and actually listen to each other for once. The way we talk about this stuff is always so mutually alienating that we never do more than scratch the surface of how to combat our pornified culture. Which, believe it or not, is something that we all want to do.

I can’t emphasize enough just how little I think I have the answers here. But, in the spirit of reconciliation, I humbly offer…

Some points on which I think we can all agree: Our culture’s relentless commodification of women’s bodies and (approved versions of) sexuality is damaging. This commodification is by no means confined to pornography or the sex industry.

Some points I’d like to see some agreement on: Sexually explicit material is not by its very sexually explicit nature always antifeminist. A feminist world can contain sexually explicit material.

Some of what I want from a useful porn-critical theory: A labor-rights argument centered on workers’ experiences (some interesting perspectives and sources of information on how the tenor of current conversations is hindering this can be found here), connected to labor organizing in other industries. Content analysis that doesn’t assume violence as its starting point. A holistic take on body commodification that links by content and message (what does this say about women and gender?), not genre (is this sexually explicit?).

Let’s dig in.

(On comment moderation: I will be seeking to moderate out [however imperfectly, ’cause I’m, y’know, human] the kinds of broad-brush mischaracterizations of others’ arguments I’m talking about in the post. Also, I’m at my day job tomorrow, and I’m not sure that I can access the mod queue through the firewall. If I can’t, I will get to everything as soon as I get home, which will be late-ish on the west coast so even later in the east. People don’t control what ends up in the mod queue; machines do.)


210 thoughts on Can We Talk About Porn Without Having the Same Fight Over and Over?

  1. I honestly don’t think that seeking a middle-ground in any issue is going to produce the kind of change that needs to happen.

    Beyond that, I don’t claim to have all the answers either, but I know they won’t be what everyone wants to hear.

  2. I think a lot of the problem comes down to… who decides what’s pornographic? I know what I consider softcore, hardcore, and too extreme; and I think my judgments are not too closed-minded, but I know they are not going to align with everyone else. Some people may think I’m a prude and others might think I’m a raging (female) misogynist. I think it’s been ridiculed extensively, but Potter Stewart’s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potter_Stewart) quote in regards to hard-core pornography “I know it when I see it” is particularly apt.

    We all know it when we see it and can’t understand why someone else can’t see it the same way, because it’s soooo obvious, isn’t it? The porn I like is feminist and the porn you like objectifies women. Why? I dunno… I guess cuz in that scene where she’s blowing him, the guy touches her head and looks like he’s enjoying it. He should look more thankful that a woman is paying him attention and less like he’s having fun. And she should be quoting Simone de Beauvoir while he’s banging her from behind and he should be saying “thank you for agreeing to engage in mutually enjoyable sexual relations with me. I appreciate all your strong female qualities” before he cums in her hair.

    My opinion is there is definitely objectifying porn, no doubt… Things about the porn industry that are awful, but… If you look for misogyny in sex, you will find it. Traditional views of sex make any sex a woman has dirty unless she’s trying to procreate with the man she is married to. I think part of it is we have to break away from the views that only men can enjoy porn, so any porn is created for men at the expense of women. How do we do that? I have no idea yet. I don’t think about porn often enough to put that much work into it. All I know is, when I do have a desire to consume some pornography, I guess I’d like to be able to.

    The hard part about drawing lines is, it makes black or white, good or bad, and no large group of people is ever going to be able to agree about the exact spot where the line should be drawn. Nevermind that this sort of narrow-minded dualistic thinking is better suited to Bushies and fundamentalists.

    A wishy-washy position to take, I know, but I have really mixed feelings about it all.

  3. Lisa, thanks so much for writing this. You’re asking a lot of the same questions I have been asking myself lately, turning them over and over in my little head and wondering if I’m nuts.

    I read iblamethepatriarchy regularly, and I find the clarity refreshing, eye-opening. I agree with a lot of what’s said there, but I usually can’t get on board with a lot of the sex stuff. I’m just starting to do some exploratory research on sexuality and technology, which has given me the opportunity to meet a few smart and assertive women who do things like make their living doing webcam sex work, or write guides on how to give blowjobs, and if i tried to call them exploited they’d laugh in my face. In the world of non-sex work, being an entrepreneur is a very different game than working for a big corporation; this is true of sex work, too.

    I’m not comfortable constructing sex workers as Other and then saying things about Them. It reeks of old-school, colonialist anthropology.

    That said, I don’t love all porn. Actually I get grossed out by a lot of it. When I try to understand my feelings about it in more detail than just “ew”, I run into two major things:

    First, how do I know when someone is, in fact, being exploited and when not? There’s some guidelines, I guess. A woman owning and controlling visual access to her body via her own webcam is a very different thing from a woman who’s acting in front of a lot of cameras that someone else is controlling. I *think* I trust a business like Good Vibrations to carry videos made using sound labor practices, but I do wish there was more transparency. Does anyone know where I could find some solid statistics on porn, abuse, exploitation, bad labor practices, etc?

    Second, publicly available portrayals (and commodification) of women’s bodies squicks me out. I’m trying to understand the interaction between public discourse and private meanings, specifically around sexuality because it’s so loaded and the difference between public and private treatments of sex can be huge. If I took a dirty picture of myself and sent it to my partner, it might evoke specific memories and imaginings, it might hint at something he knows I enjoy, it might have some nuance and layers of meaning based on our shared experience. If that same picture was shared all over the internet, it’s meaning would break down to: “huh huh, a naked chick” or even better “huh huh, a naked asian chick”. Sometimes these widely shared cultural meanings around sex come back and bite us in the ass (not that ass-biting is always a bad thing!) in the bedroom. But I certainly hope that’s not the only factor that defines the meaning and enjoyability of my sex life.

    There’s only so far I can get thinking about this on my own. I’m dying to talk to other people about this, feminists and sex workers (both in the same person would be extra awesome).

    Sorry for the length, I’ll have to think about this more on my own blog.

  4. I don’t know how to reach a middle of the road, here, beyond both sides promising to invest in women run, women directed, totally above board porn. I am not even sure that is a middle, but I do think that, in a world where we are never ever ever going to get rid of anything and everything with that title, it is a better thing.

    I agree that women’s bodies are sexualized in a variety of contexts, and the sum of these messages is harmful (point number one).

    I agree with point number two, that nudity, and sexual activity on film, photo or ad, are not by their very nature harmful.

    And I agree that, in a world with labor violations in every field, a goal of feminism should be to reduce and fix labor conditions. I am not sure the starting point needs to be this particular industry, mostly because of the sheer numbers of, say, people who work in restaurants who are being exploited over the much smaller number of people in this industry. And I hate the assumption that violence is guarenteed in this industry as much as I hate when there are those instances of violence. We need to reduce them, absolutely. But I don’t think they are, because of the nature of the industry, necessarily a given.

    (Trying not to be broad and to not rehash old arguments is difficult!)

  5. Can we?

    After last week’s discussion, I have my doubts, but I wish you the best of luck.
    [I’d also be interested in some stats on moderated posts after things die down.]

  6. I used to feel similarly conflicted about porn. But then I bought my neck massager, and that thing can bring me to orgasm even if I’m thinking about taxes. Thus, my porn problem was solved!

    And now of course, I don’t feel conflicted about porn because I have lost my desire to watch it.

  7. A labor-rights argument centered on workers’ experiences

    I am a part of this movement (and executive editor of $pread, which you linked to), but I want to add a complication to this. As important as it is to view and understand the sex industry with perspective on labor rights, many people who work in the industry shy away from that very perspective. Lots of folks like to hit the sex industry hard with theory, but most sex workers are completely uninterested in theory, and don’t adopt or know the language of sex workers’ rights.

    However they position themselves politically (and especially if they avoid that entirely), its extremely important to listen to people who work in the adult industry and respect their experiences and knowledge of the way the industry works. So many conversations about porn seem to spin rapidly out of control without giving voice to the people on the inside.

    On a practical level, with porn, I find that people sometimes complain about issues of representation that are a function of logistics. For example: porn viewers often complain about the lack of real female orgasms in porn. As many women know, orgasms can be difficult to achieve – sometimes much more so in a roomful of expectant film crew members with hot lights and time/tape a-wasting. As a viewer, I’m totally into the real orgasms. As a producer/director they stress me out. When I used to get naked for money and had clients/photogs demand that kind of authenticity, I would get annoyed and feel put upon if I couldn’t deliver.

  8. “Some of what I want from a useful porn-critical theory: A labor-rights argument centered on workers’ experiences (some interesting perspectives and sources of information on how the tenor of current conversations is hindering this can be found here), connected to labor organizing in other industries.”

    I think it would be good to note that in this regard, many of us on the “pro-porn” side are in fact very much pro-sex worker and pro-labor rights. In fact, I’d say that that’s the position of all of us who blog at Blog of Pro-Porn Activism. Where we part company with many feminists is on the content issue – any kind of regulation of pornography based purely on the kind of imagery in a piece of porn is anathema, and we are by and large not OK with attempts to censure or shame people merely because of the kind of imagery they like to look at, or keep people from viewing certain images because of deterministic ideas of what such images will supposedly “make you think”. This is not to say analysis and critique of the images in porn are uncalled for, as they are for any kind of media or artistic expression; its where such critiques turn into moralistic proscriptions that problems arise.

    I throw this out there to offer some clarification of what many of us on the “pro-porn” and “sex-positive” side are actually arguing, a position that’s often grossly mischaracterized. There’s much talk of the need to avoid setting up “strawfeminists”, but it would be nice to avoid the same vis-a-vis “strawsexpozzes” as well.

  9. no, i don’t think a civil conversation CAN be had on this topic. I just don’t think it can happen. Yes, better labor laws would be grand, the realization that nudity, sexuality, and the majority of sexual acts are not, by nature, degrading, but the contexts and attitudes under which they are done would be grand, but as much as I love the spirit of this post…no, I do not think it can be done…but I do wish you luck, and I do hope to be surprised.

  10. Re:

    Both sides need to stop freakin’ out and actually listen to each other for once.

    Well, I’m going to play devil’s advocate here.
    Do we (and by we, I mean those of us calling ourselves feminists who hail from opposite sides of the prostitution/pornography politics divide) necessarily need to listen to each other? I block out a lot of the pro-industry stuff not because I have some idea that, for example, all photographic representation of sexuality is inherently pornographic (anyone assuming this can kiss my ass), or because I assume that all women involved in the industry are victims, or anything like that – but because it’s not really my concern. My concern is for the safety and well-being of women in the industry, as well as those who have left or are attempting to leave the industry, period. Some of these women identify as sex workers, but many do not; certainly, the former group has far more representation in popular culture and within feminism. (How many Women’s Studies classes have been assigned to read Sex Work: Writings by Women in the Sex Industry versus, let’s say, Lyn: A Story of Prostitution?)

    Those of you who want to discuss “a woman’s right to pornography” (ala Wendy McElroy) on the one hand, or who seek to advance the view that the consumption (and this is a very key word) of pornography brings about social harms (ala Diana E. H. Russell), can have at it. I care less and less about the photographs themselves. I care about the women in the photographs, how they got there – by choice? by coercion? by some murky combination of the above? And, what is more, can they safely exit the industry if they want or need to?

    Because, here’s the thing, until we can credibly say that women in the industry can safely and freely exit the sex trade at any time, the issue of representation has to take a back seat to what is, in fact, being represented. The fact that those women in the upper eschelons of the (inherently stratifying) sex trade – women without pimps, or who may be less prone to getting pimped on account of ethnicity- and/or class-based privileges, or, for that matter, who may themselves be involved in pimping – have a vested interest in (falsely) representing their experiences, access, and privilege as the “norm” for all women with previous or current experience in the sex trade. (Which, needless to say, is fairly irritating to the rest of us*.)

    Re: this –

    I can’t ignore that porn is—to put it mildly—problematic. As is true regarding a lot of things I love but have (mostly) given up for health and many other reasons, I’m willing to trade pleasure for living more closely aligned with my values.

    I have to say here that I couldn’t help but laugh that at the word “love,” you’ve linked to, of all things, Google images for “roast beef sandwich.” I mean, wow. Because here, it all comes back down to this aesthetic of consumption – what, or in the case of women in the sex trade, who, is fair game for the consumption. (Some) radfems complain about how these hideous images of these horrible sluts (or whatever – pick your derogatory whorebaiting reference of choice) hurt “the rest of us,” while (some) sexpozzes complain about how they have the right to jill off to these same images. Before the image of the woman, there was an actual woman. I’d just love it if we (yes, all of us) could remember that.

    *I don’t do the whole “bleed on command” thing (not for the purposes of arguing with sexpozzes, and damn sure not for the purposes of substantiating the ideological claims of radfems – even when I agree with them, which, for the record, is often), so I’ll just ignore anybody who wants to interrogate my lived-experience basis for making the above statements. Suffice it to say, been there, didn’t consent to it, barely got out alive. But did get out, thanks in part to the woman who wrote this.

  11. who decides what’s pornographic?

    Totally. I think discussions of “what’s pornographic” seem to center around things like: how nude are the people depicted? what are they doing? what body parts are showing?

    Something that seems just as important though, is: who is seeing the image? is it being consumed by 1 person? 2, 10, 100?

    Looking at pictures of an intimate partner feels totally, totally different from looking at pictures of strangers. The former feels much more intimate than the latter (though still less intimate than actually being with them).

    As many women know, orgasms can be difficult to achieve – sometimes much more so in a roomful of expectant film crew members with hot lights and time/tape a-wasting. As a viewer, I’m totally into the real orgasms. As a producer/director they stress me out.

    Audacia, I just started reading your blog, like, two days ago.

    Do you think that, practically, this can be addressed better with the DIY stuff and/or digital media? If it’s your camera and there’s no expectant crew? If hard-drive space is cheaper than film (and reusable) so you can feasibly record for as long as it takes?

  12. The root of the problem is, IMHO, that the vast majority of porn in our culture is the graphic depiction of sexual assault against women in which girls are depicted as instruments of men for men’s pleasure.

    Is porn by definition bad? Probably not. However, in this patriarchy it is invariably a tool of opression and therefore needs to be shunned. (Note: not banned. Andrea Dworkin, one of pornography’s most outspoken critics, fought for the banishment of porn from our society but vehemently opposed legal action restricting its creation or distribution. See this http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/PornAList.html and related articles.)

  13. I have next to no experience with straight porn, and so from a practical point cannot comment on porn involving women, but one of the things that intrigues me is that in threads about straight porn there seems to always be an underlying given about the fairly rigid and objectifying standards for the body image and presentation (hair, nails, makeup) of women in porn.

    Which always just blows my mind. In many areas of life, you can map out what are inherent male behaviors by looking at gay men (not all, by any means, but lots) – but gay porn is just all over the map on the images of the performers. Young and delicate enough that they have to keep insisting they are over 18, or clearly in their 40’s. Slim and fashionable, or bodybuilders, or hairy chubby bears. Vanilla or SM. Etc, etc.

    I just can’t help but wonder what the dynamic is for straight porn that seems to be so different.

  14. I’ll probably sound like a retard asking this, but …

    Aside from all good/evil questions, if I didn’t prefer actual sex with another person, why would I prefer someone else’s fantasies to my own? Besides, if my partner(s) and I ran out of sexy ideas, porn movies don’t exactly seem the most efficient way of delivering them? Why be a spectator when I can be an actress? It seems like watching another kid enjoy their ice-cream at best (and offputting and silly at worst). Does my paramount preference for sex with actual people just mean that it’s actually the Gaze that turns me on? It’s help a retard day. Which part don’t I get?

  15. I think you are right on with this.

    The lack of intelligent, unabashedly feminist discussion and critique of porn drives me batty. I wrote a little something (far less reasoned and far more pissed off) on this topic last year. I think there are much bigger issues going on with porn than sexually explicit depictions alone, and that the difficulty in talking about them has a lot more to do with the failure of (elite, media-attention-getting, disseminated-to-large-numbers-of-people) feminism to adequately address problems that have morphed significantly in the last couple of decades. A snippet from my post:

    “I wish that we as a society would just say out loud, ‘You know, we’re really threatened by women’s halting but real progress toward social and economic equality. All that stuff about women earning the same as men and having educational opportunities and access to things like contraception and abortion makes it really seem like women could be independent, equal human beings, recognized as individuals worthy of respect and dignity. and that’s sort of scary.'”

  16. I just want to say, before I leave for work at the asscrack of dawn pacific time, THANK YOU for the thoughtful comments, and how excited I am for this conversation (and I have not moderated a single thing so far, fyi).

    I have lots to say and not enough time to say it, so just one thing:

    IMO, “pornography” = sexually explicit material. I think this is literally the only way to avoid messy and subjective arguments about what’s porn and what’s erotica, which as y’all are suggesting is just not useful for anything except drawing lines between what I like and what you like.

    And eschewing this false distinction forces us to think harder about what’s harmful and how we can change things.

  17. I guess feminists need to keep slugging this topic out for whatever reason. But as far the larger society goes anti-porn feminists lost the argument over 25 years ago. With the internet and expansion the porn video industry, porn is 100’s of times more prevalent than when the debate began.

    A labor centered approach seems right to me. I would note a good friend of mine just left stripping and got a job at a “feminist” institution. The new job’s pay is so crappy, I’m pretty sure she’ll be to dancing in a few months.

  18. Aside from all good/evil questions, if I didn’t prefer actual sex with another person, why would I prefer someone else’s fantasies to my own? Besides, if my partner(s) and I ran out of sexy ideas, porn movies don’t exactly seem the most efficient way of delivering them? Why be a spectator when I can be an actress? It seems like watching another kid enjoy their ice-cream at best (and offputting and silly at worst). Does my paramount preference for sex with actual people just mean that it’s actually the Gaze that turns me on? It’s help a retard day. Which part don’t I get?

    1. Not everyone has a partner or can get a partner. If you have ever read True Porn Clerk Stories, which was written in 2002 by a woman working at a Chicago video store, you know that some of the men that came into her shop were, for instance, slower mentally. One of her posts discusses how she started to think of porn as a right that everyone should have, because it was so difficult for the illiterate and the slow to actually rent these videos.

    2. Not all orgasms have to come from partnered sex or even should. I don’t rely on my partner for several reasons: we don’t live together, and I am not going to wait a week, and for another, I don’t necessarily think it is health to rely on someone else who may not be there or may not be in the mood or who will (through boredom, death, whatever) LEAVE you. There is nothing wrong with taking matters into your own hands, but some people have a difficult time fantasizing. Many of us grew up believing sex to be dirty and wrong, or were told as adults that our fantasies or fetishes made us terrible people. This can make fantasizing on our own difficult.

    3. Not everyone who is partnered wants to explore every fantasy. As much as it would be nice if everyone was G, G, G, we are not. If a person has a fantasy that their partner won’t explore or can’t explore, but the person really enjoys the scenerio, why not explore it in another way?

    I am not trying to say everyone can or needs to watch, but I also think its a little weird to pretend their aren’t reasons why people turn to videos.

    “Retard” is not a nice term to use. FYI

  19. Yes, I do think that a productive conversation is possible, but I’m not sure that there’s a way around the impasse. The problem that I have is that we live in a patriarchy. There is no way that sexually explicit film will somehow (even if filmmakers wanted it to be so) escape the mark of male dominance. Sure it can be minimized, but I don’t think that’s some sort of resolution.

    I also don’t think that in our post feminist future (should such a thing ever wind up existing) that sexual appetites and desires are likely to radically change. Viva la revolucion! is not a pragmatic solution to the way that sex work and porn currently exists.

    Is there also a possibility that we could agree that facials should not be de rigeur?

  20. I’m coming at this from the perspective of a het male who, while he enjoys sex and erotica, isn’t really comfortable with either side of the “porn debate” as it currently exists.

    My catchphrase du jour for this issue is “feminist-positive sex”; meaning that instead of warping my sense of what’s right and wrong with regard to gender relations to accomodate that which turns me on, I seek out material that doesn’t trigger my misogyny, racism, homophobia, etc. detectors. This does mean trading pleasure for values; for example, avoiding material that’s advertised in misogynist ways, or where I’m not confident the performers aren’t being coerced. I suspect a lot of guys don’t do this, either because they actively enjoy the misogyny, because they’re neutral to it, or because they’re bothered by it but don’t know how to find material that doesn’t have it.

    Most of what I watch/read these days is not professionally produced, but instead is material given away in situations where it’s possible to contact the producers/performers – open source smut, if you will. Even then, there are still problems (current or ex-partners posting pictures without the subject’s permission, people claiming to be the subject when they’re not, people making misogynist comments, etc.),

    I’ve come up with a LiveJournal community for this purpose called Take Back the Sexy, that’s meant to be a sort of repository for both feminist critique of porn that goes beyond the “sexpos vs. radfem wars” and for discussions of sex and sexual material that manages to avoid the usual misogyny. (I’ll probably post a link to this article there soon.) The comm is still nascent, though – I haven’t drawn up a statement of purpose or anything yet. Still, anyone who wants to contribute is welcome.

  21. I disagree with Iamcuriousblue and RenegadeEvolution on this. I think a civil conversation can be had, and a useful one. It may not invite everyone to the table, and I don’t think that it should replace the larger debate, but I think more nuanced media criticism would be a very good thing, as would attempts to change the culture from within (meaning a discussion that’s not polarized into the “reject absolutely” and “nothing wrong” camps).

  22. William Says:
    August 30th, 2007 at 3:42 am

    The root of the problem is, IMHO, that the vast majority of porn in our culture is the graphic depiction of sexual assault against women in which girls are depicted as instruments of men for men’s pleasure.

    I’ve never been able to comprehend the argument against objectifying and commodifying sexual imagery. Nor can I comprehend the negative taint associated with women being instruments for pleasure.

    It seems that people want to be seen and valued for some mysterious internal subjective essense, and to look at and value the objective shape and form and function is somehow not only shallow, but insensitive and oppressive.

    But that’s insane. No one is a mere subject. We are both subjects and objects. You can’t have sex without a body.

  23. I don’t know where to begin to get a handhold on the notion that porn mostly depicts sexual assault. If by assault, he means rape, only a very small minority uses rape fantasies. And as for that, me and my girlfriend, and the last, and the one before, and the one before, etc, etc, like to occasionally do a little fake-rape play. Sex often includes what looks like oppression, but that is experienced as passion and fun. If you are a person who has not experienced this first hand, I doubt words will explain the fact to you at a level that will have appropriate emotional impact. Most of us men and women get it – a little dominance play is a good thing. But if you want to get hung up on appearance only, and completely objectify the situation, I guess when you see sex all you can see is assault. Those of us that enjoy porn understand that objects and subjects are two complentary halves – you can’t have one without the other – to see merely one and to deny the other is such a myopic denial of reality as to qualify as being insane.

  24. I’ve never been able to comprehend the argument against objectifying and commodifying sexual imagery. Nor can I comprehend the negative taint associated with women being instruments for pleasure.

    It seems that people want to be seen and valued for some mysterious internal subjective essense, and to look at and value the objective shape and form and function is somehow not only shallow, but insensitive and oppressive.

    But that’s insane. No one is a mere subject. We are both subjects and objects. You can’t have sex without a body.

  25. facials should not be de rigeur

    I agree with this. First, climaxing outside the body is a porn convention. I believe one purpose is to help the solitary male viewer identify with the onscreen action: the guy on screen is masturbating and coming, at the same time the guy at home is masturbating and coming. Plus spurting on screen is more visually interesting than coming inside. Second, spurting on a woman’s face, however, serves only to degrade her. Your sex partner is your partner, who you should appreciate, not want to degrade.

  26. Your sex partner is your partner, who you should appreciate, not want to degrade.

    This is a very interesting topic, and one that quickly polarises. Some people actually enjoy being degraded in a sex-play way, sometimes especially with someone that they love and trust. Some people include many politically incorrect emotions in their sex play, and find that they enhance the passion and pleasure.

  27. I’ve never been able to comprehend the argument against objectifying and commodifying sexual imagery. Nor can I comprehend the negative taint associated with women being instruments for pleasure.

    I’m not sure why you would have difficulty with the fact that portraying human beings as commodities would be a bad thing. While not uncommon, ever, in human history, the treatment of other people as objects to be bought, sold, and used has come to be seen, at least nominally, as “not good”. The depiction of such treatment in pictures, videos, writing, etc. is not easy (if possible) to separate from the reality.

    I’m not saying that that all depictions of sex acts or sexuality in said media are examples of this, but any which ARE, are likewise “not good”. Why does sex get special treatment over other types of examples? Because we’re a sex-obsessed culture, at least here in the US – having it, not letting others have it, watching it, having too much, having too little, not sure if we’re doing it right… seems to occupy more of the national focus than any other single subject.

    It seems that people want to be seen and valued for some mysterious internal subjective essense, and to look at and value the objective shape and form and function is somehow not only shallow, but insensitive and oppressive.

    I’m actually a little unclear about what the hell you’re saying here. That forcing people to consider people only for their mind/personality/whatever, while necessarily ignoring their physical appearance, is oppressive? I suppose it is – but who does that? You take people as a whole – a composite of traits, some more tangible and some less. Some people put more focus on some traits than others. The tendency (and cultural weight behind it) to put more emphasis on the physical, and to rate the physical traits against artificial, arbitrary cultural beauty standards and to assign women value based only on such ratings, is what is being spoken out against.

    But that’s insane. No one is a mere subject. We are both subjects and objects. You can’t have sex without a body.

    In William Gibson’s “Sprawl” setting (and there may be other good examples from literature/fiction, but I was just reading Gibson last night), there’s an establishment called the House of Blue Lights, where the main commodity for sale is the natural cyberpunk extension of the Real Doll – actual women with their conscious minds switched off, whose bodies are available for use. I think he depicted this in a few different ways, but the core concept was the same. That’s “having sex with a body” – necrophilia, almost, or maybe not even almost. I don’t see that as very feminist-friendly. Having sex with a PERSON seems like it should be more the focus, you know?

  28. I’m not sure why you would have difficulty with the fact that portraying human beings as commodities would be a bad thing. While not uncommon, ever, in human history, the treatment of other people as objects to be bought, sold, and used has come to be seen, at least nominally, as “not good”. The depiction of such treatment in pictures, videos, writing, etc. is not easy (if possible) to separate from the reality.

    Portraying human beings as commodities is different than commodifying images of sex. When you sell a video, you are not selling a human.

    I don’t personally enjoy paying for sex, because it seems to me that the chances of what I find to be good sex is lessened, because the chances of intimacy lessen. However if I were to pay for sex, I wouldn’t see that I was purchasing a human – I’d be paying for a service.

    I’m not saying that that all depictions of sex acts or sexuality in said media are examples of this, but any which ARE, are likewise “not good”. Why does sex get special treatment over other types of examples? Because we’re a sex-obsessed culture, at least here in the US – having it, not letting others have it, watching it, having too much, having too little, not sure if we’re doing it right… seems to occupy more of the national focus than any other single subject.

    Many people have very high sex drives. This is not a cultural phenomena – some people are born and die being a horny little energizer bunny of love.

    I’m actually a little unclear about what the hell you’re saying here. That forcing people to consider people only for their mind/personality/whatever, while necessarily ignoring their physical appearance, is oppressive? I suppose it is – but who does that? You take people as a whole – a composite of traits, some more tangible and some less. Some people put more focus on some traits than others. The tendency (and cultural weight behind it) to put more emphasis on the physical, and to rate the physical traits against artificial, arbitrary cultural beauty standards and to assign women value based only on such ratings, is what is being spoken out against.

    What I am saying is that it is neither shallow nor oppressive to consider and value sexual objects. There is no such thing as objectification. Wherever there is a body, there is an object, and a sex object, at that. Nor is it a cultural idea to value some shapes above others. All animals do that. You do it too. Men usually do this more, but not due to training – it is due to having a physical body and brain that is predisposed visual sexual stimulus.

    …That’s “having sex with a body” – necrophilia, almost, or maybe not even almost. I don’t see that as very feminist-friendly. Having sex with a PERSON seems like it should be more the focus, you know?

    Yes, I sure agree – and that is a huge part of the mystery of sex – the inter-subjective communion. I don’t think it is an either or discussion. Yes, there is subjectivity. Yes. And yes. Yes. And…

  29. This is a very interesting topic, and one that quickly polarises. Some people actually enjoy being degraded in a sex-play way, sometimes especially with someone that they love and trust. Some people include many politically incorrect emotions in their sex play, and find that they enhance the passion and pleasure.

    First, please stop with the “PC/unPC” bullshit. Second, I don’t think anyone is rejecting the idea that some people may enjoy those things, or even that some people may go so far as to be unable to gain any sexual satisfaction whatsoever WITHOUT those things. HOWEVER, to hand-wave those facts wihtout looking at the reasons WHY people get off on this stuff, and leave it at “hey, if someone enjoys it, it’s okay”, would be irresponsible.

  30. I think there are really two porn problems that tend to get conflated. The first is the issue of exploitation of performers and participants, and the second is the effect of the images produced on society overall. It seems to me as well that the two problems are also in some ways in tension with each other.

    On the one hand it seems to me that destigmatizing sex work and pornography would be a necessary step in improving conditions for sex workers, but on the other hand, destigmatization is also likely to continue to increase the number of pornographic or pornlike images that the average member of society is exposed to.

    I think this is part of why the porn debates tend to get so bitter. Porn harms a lot of women in a lot of ways, but it doesn’t harm all women in the same way. And short of making porn disappear entirely, which seems (to me at least) both unrealistic and undesirable, a lot of the solutions proposed tend to make some group of women better off, but leave others unaffected, or even worse off.

  31. I agree with evil fizz on this–I’m sure we can be civil, but what’s the point?
    Before the image of the woman, there was an actual woman. I’d just love it if we (yes, all of us) could remember that.

    Well, having been one of those “actual women”, I couldn’t agree more. Because my role, apparently, is to either wail about how terrible and exploited I was and how lucky I was to get out, or to STFU because if I don’t spout that line, I’m a brainwashed gender-traitor tool of the patriarchy. I’ve had some anti-porn feminists get angry with me because they’ve been talking about The Poor Sex Workers and I had the nerve to pipe up and say “You don’t speak for me.”

  32. Second, I don’t think anyone is rejecting the idea that some people may enjoy those things, or even that some people may go so far as to be unable to gain any sexual satisfaction whatsoever WITHOUT those things. HOWEVER, to hand-wave those facts wihtout looking at the reasons WHY people get off on this stuff, and leave it at “hey, if someone enjoys it, it’s okay”, would be irresponsible.

    I’m not clear about the reasons behind your implication that degrading sex is not ok. My opinion is that the reasons have their roots in our biology. I don’t consider it even a useful question as to whether such types of sex are “ok” or not. The final question, to me, is if people are doing what they want and enjoying it. I must assume you think it somehow damaging to individuals and societies to engage in such sex acts, but I’d bet large sums of money against the real world giving evidence for that. I’m pretty sure it’s all harmless.

  33. Thanks for the great post, Lisa. In some ways, calling for some middle-ground is a lot harder than railing for or against one particular point of view. Lots of people don’t like to imagine that concepts they feel very, very passionate about might be more complex than they think.

    A labor-rights argument centered on workers’ experiences (some interesting perspectives and sources of information on how the tenor of current conversations is hindering this can be found here), connected to labor organizing in other industries. Content analysis that doesn’t assume violence as its starting point. A holistic take on body commodification that links by content and message (what does this say about women and gender?), not genre (is this sexually explicit?).

    I would add to these suggestions: More analysis whereby the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ of porn (from a feminist perspective) is connected conceptually to the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ of other parts of our culture (for example–is porn and the commodification of sex a direct result of commodification culture in general?). Also: Lots and lots and lots more science around human sexuality in general, and some specifically about how traditional gender roles (and all that they involve) are put into play and (sometimes) transgressed in porn. And how about more people of all genders talking about the part porn plays/has played/will never play in their lives?

    I also think Peter H’s comment re: straight porn as compared to gay porn is a potential gold mine, conceptually, in any discussion of porn.

  34. I’m not clear about the reasons behind your implication that degrading sex is not ok. My opinion is that the reasons have their roots in our biology. I don’t consider it even a useful question as to whether such types of sex are “ok” or not. The final question, to me, is if people are doing what they want and enjoying it. I must assume you think it somehow damaging to individuals and societies to engage in such sex acts, but I’d bet large sums of money against the real world giving evidence for that. I’m pretty sure it’s all harmless.

    And there are many of us who believe that the desire for degrading sex is often a result of social conditioning, not biology. But your assertion that degrading sex is completely harmless is a bit much – and that’s being very polite about my true feelings about that assertion. Degrading sex can be harmless when in engaged in by people who enjoy it. But degrading sex is often harmful to many people, including people who may occasionally enjoy degrading sex. I speak from experience on this one.

    I also find your assertions a bit hard to stomach considering that they are being made by a man who is speaking from a dominant position, is the one doing the degrading and not the one being degraded or dealing with a cultural saturation of sexually degrading images of your gender. You are not the one in position to be harmed in this discussion and you have a vested interest in stating that it is all harmless.

  35. I think Victoria Marinelli’s point is very important, but I do think there are problems with porn when no women are involved in the actual production of porn. I’ve read a fair amount of fictional pornographic stories–everything there is just words on the screen, and the only person producing them is the author, who has complete control over them.

    And, still, I think this kind of porn can arguably be harmful, and can certainly be problematic from a feminist point of view. All kinds of people write all kinds of pornographic texts, but a lot of what’s out there is written by straight men for a straight male audience (even though anyone who finds it can read it). And these stories very often play out all the very worst, dehumanizing stereotypes about women (in many ways that stereotypes just can’t be presented about men, and in no way can be done about white men, because people aren’t culturally primed to see men as being that dehumanized). And these stories do that for the sake of getting the author and the audience off.

    Now, there are readers who do see these portrayals as problematic, but still like to get off on the stories. There are feminists who detect the problems in these stories, fight against those problems in lots of contexts, and still seek out these stories for their own (fleeting) gratification. I think that’s fair enough–it’s not as though we have that much control over our kinks, after all.

    But I also think the widespread acceptance of this kind of porn (well, “widespread” within contexts where porn itself is considered acceptable), where it seems unremarkable that women exist only as objects for men to use/degrade/violate, does need to be discussed as part of the larger anti-woman culture, even though no actual women are harmed to produce the stories.

  36. And there are many of us who believe that the desire for degrading sex is often a result of social conditioning, not biology. But your assertion that degrading sex is completely harmless is a bit much – and that’s being very polite about my true feelings about that assertion. Degrading sex can be harmless when in engaged in by people who enjoy it. But degrading sex is often harmful to many people, including people who may occasionally enjoy degrading sex. I speak from experience on this one.

    I also find your assertions a bit hard to stomach considering that they are being made by a man who is speaking from a dominant position, is the one doing the degrading and not the one being degraded or dealing with a cultural saturation of sexually degrading images of your gender. You are not the one in position to be harmed in this discussion and you have a vested interest in stating that it is all harmless.

    I was not speaking from the dominant position – that was your assumption. My actual words were gender neutral. I enjoy both being dominant, and submissive. There is nothing that I do that I don’t enjoy being done to me. My vested interest is not in being dominant – it is in free sexual expression and and a society that can tolerate it without rallying for repression.

    As for degrading sex being harmful, I assume you mean it is harmful when it is not conscensual. If so, I agree with you. If not, please clarify.

  37. How is degrading someone ever harmless?

    Obviously you are not into that kind of sex. You obviously don’t enjoy it. That’s fine. But I don’t see how you can take your preference and externalize it and say that therefore if other people enjoy it they are necessarily being harmful.

  38. But note that both of you are agreeing that the specific act in question IS degrading. Isn’t an important question whether the people who enjoy engaging in it find it degrading in the first place?

    “If someone did that to me, I would feel degraded” is not sufficient to declare an absolute.

    It would also, in large part, depend on the actual scene in question. If neither of the actors are speaking or behaving in a degrading/degraded manner, then it isn’t fair to characterize the act as inherently degrading in all cases. If it isn’t being portrayed as degrading, declaring it so is somewhat off the mark. It may be unrealistic, which is a bit of a different question.

    No act, particularly no sexual act, is inherently degrading.

    Valid discussions are certainly to be had about how a consistent portrayal of anything tends to normalize it, and about how that may create pressure for people to do things that they don’t want to for that reason (“it’s normal to like this – what’s wrong with me/you?”).

    But pick any sex act – even the most extreme power-based S/M acts, and you can find plenty of people who engage in it quite happily with no sense of actual degradation.

    It’s one of the trickier aspects of commenting other people’s sex lives.

  39. As for degrading sex being harmful, I assume you mean it is harmful when it is not conscensual. If so, I agree with you. If not, please clarify.

    It can be harmful even when consensual. There are, for instance, sexual abuse victims who seek out and engage in degrading sex because of their past experiences. In some cases this could be argued to be cathartic, in others it is doing absolutely nothing but maintaining the damaged psyche. But even in instances in which the person consented even without a history of abuse, they can often be psychologically harmed. This is something that even many – probably even most BDSM practitioners – will readily admit and warn newbies about.

  40. I’m not familiar with the psychological harm that are you are mentioning. Since I know nothing about that, for now I will assume that it is possible and happens. So then we seem to be agreeing that degrading sex is sometimes harmful, and sometimes not, yes? And if we agree about that, where does that leave us regarding porn that depicts facials?

  41. drooling_ferret, re: degradation:

    Right, exactly. There are a lot of sexual practices that are coded as “degrading.” But there are few of them that are intrinsically degrading; it all does depend on context. And even though some practices are so loaded with cultural weight that they’re always going to seem at least a little degrading to almost everyone in the culture–and, therefore, kinky–they can still be practiced in a context where no one is degrading another person, i.e., where the people involved still have all the respect for each other as human beings equally worthy of estimation and dignity, and no contempt for each other in general or for engaging in the “degrading” sexual practice.

    And none of this requires people to engage in some supposedly un-sexy, “I deeply respect you,” “No, I deeply respect YOU” dialogue. It really only requires people not to feel contempt for each other.

    Sadly, that seems hard for a lot of straight men to imagine, because there’s such a widespread cultural assumption that women who engage in sex with men (even involuntarily) deserve contempt.

    But, for people who get past that, it’s true, there’s all kinds of harmless kinky things people can do together. I just wouldn’t ever call those kinky things degrading, even if they seem kinky because the culture codes them as degrading.

  42. But, for people who get past that, it’s true, there’s all kinds of harmless kinky things people can do together. I just wouldn’t ever call those kinky things degrading, even if they seem kinky because the culture codes them as degrading.

    I see what you are saying here, but let’s throw out a possible example of “degrading” sexual activity.

    If a woman engages in sex with 10 men who all slap her in the face, urinate on her, tie her up, “rape” her, and call her a “worthless cum dumpster” would you not say that is degrading? I have trouble not seeing something like that degrading and people do engage in that type of activity.

  43. I have trouble not seeing something like that degrading and people do engage in that type of activity.

    Make that “as degrading”. I apologize for any typos. I’m typing fast and have little time to proofread.

  44. But, for people who get past that, it’s true, there’s all kinds of harmless kinky things people can do together. I just wouldn’t ever call those kinky things degrading, even if they seem kinky because the culture codes them as degrading.

    I’m agreeing with your insight, but want to step it up another notch. People can enjoy playing with dominance and submission, while fully respecting and loving each other. One way to show dominance is to do something in a kinky way that would normally be considered degrading – like for examble a facial or watersports. The kinkyness is both degrading, and not degrading, because at the same time there is both playing with dominance and mutual respect. Kinky sex is fundamentally not degrading, yet it uses degradation.

  45. As for degrading sex being harmful, I assume you mean it is harmful when it is not conscensual. If so, I agree with you. If not, please clarify.

    Degradation is, by definition, harmful to the one being degraded. If you MEAN “simulated degradation”, or “pretend degradation”, then please say so. I’m not sure that’s much better, but at least it’s clear that you’re not saying actual degradation is fine and well.

  46. Peter Says: Valid discussions are certainly to be had about how a consistent portrayal of anything tends to normalize it, and about how that may create pressure for people to do things that they don’t want to for that reason (”it’s normal to like this – what’s wrong with me/you?”).

    “Valid discussions are to be had”? I thought that WAS the discussion at hand.

  47. If a woman engages in sex with 10 men who all slap her in the face, urinate on her, tie her up, “rape” her, and call her a “worthless cum dumpster” would you not say that is degrading? I have trouble not seeing something like that degrading and people do engage in that type of activity.

    I think I understand what you are pointing to here, and your idea of degradation. Where a person feels worthless or to have lost worth through performing or accepting some act.

    I agree with you that would be negative. I would not want to engage in that, nor condone it.

    What is often very difficult to grok is that what appears to lower a persons internal feeling of worth is not always directly tied in a one to one fashion to the physical acts. Attitude is key. Some people can perform certain acts that appear degrading, yet don’t feel degraded.

    I don’t think it is anybodies business but their own what acts they perform, if there is no harm. And I don’t agree that the appearance of harm equals harm.

  48. Degradation is, by definition, harmful to the one being degraded. If you MEAN “simulated degradation”, or “pretend degradation”, then please say so. I’m not sure that’s much better, but at least it’s clear that you’re not saying actual degradation is fine and well.

    Yes, I suppose I do mean “simulated degradation”. That is clearer. I guess my point is that, in relation to porn, the degradation is already simulated, and not real, and so those that watch it can get off without feeling that someone is actually degraded.

  49. xsplat Says: There is no such thing as objectification.

    I missed this before. I’m sorry, I thought you had a fucking clue. I see not, and will stop bothering with you.

  50. xsplat Says: There is no such thing as objectification.

    I missed this before. I’m sorry, I thought you had a fucking clue. I see not, and will stop bothering with you.

    Perhaps the reason you find that statement clueless is that I was not clear in the meaning. I think my intended meaning is unobjectionable to the point of being impossible to disagree with. My point is that human beings have both a subjective and objective component – it is not possible to make into an object what is already an object.

    I was not trying to deny that we can overlook the subjective and overemphasise the objective – which is the common understanding of ojbectification.

    I’m trying to stop the reverse – the overlooking of the objective and the overemphasis on the subjective. Humans have both bodies and minds.

  51. Nor can I comprehend the negative taint associated with women being instruments for pleasure.

    The taint is that that’s all they’re represented as.

    Most of us men and women get it – a little dominance play is a good thing.

    If you’re into it. I’m not. Abuse is a giant squick for me, and even some things which approach it (e.g., the whole master/servant dynamic) turn me off. (As an aside, I’m sick to death of the implication that not being into D/s makes me less sexual than people who are.)

    Also, I think there’s a difference between debasement which is performed because the debasee gets off on it, and debasement in which the debasee’s gratification is irrelevant, just as there’s a difference betwen BDSM and abuse. “Some women like to be called sluts” is not an excuse for the way women are often presented in porn.

  52. xsplat Says: Perhaps the reason you find that statement clueless is that I was not clear in the meaning. I think my intended meaning is unobjectionable to the point of being impossible to disagree with. My point is that human beings have both a subjective and objective component – it is not possible to make into an object what is already an object.

    So, because we’re made of physical stuff, and are therefore by some definitions physical objects, and the literal meaning of “objectification” is to “make into an object”, objectification is redundant and therefore impossible?

    Exactly what possible value did you feel that obtuseness held for anyone but you? No shit, and water’s wet and the sky generally appears blue. If you’d like to take a post and explain why 1+1=2, you’re welcome to, but why should anyone else read it?

    Do you understand that the very POINT of stating that objectification is harmful is that the meaning in that context is that it is the effective strip people (mostly women in this case) of their value AS people (the “subjective component” in your whacko language), and relegating to ONLY the physical (“objective component”, to you)? Not to say that all porn must necessarily do so, or that sex necessarily does so, but when something IS doing so, it is bad.

  53. My point is that human beings have both a subjective and objective component – it is not possible to make into an object what is already an object.

    So you go half way and stop. Yes, everyone is a subject and an object at the same time. It’s true that we thus cannot be made an object. Objectification then is the total ignorance of the subject-side.

  54. I’m trying to stop the reverse – the overlooking of the objective and the overemphasis on the subjective. Humans have both bodies and minds.

    Aside from the fact that I find mind/body duality about as useful (in this case – not at all) as the mind/body/soul three part construction, I fail to see where this has been an endemic problem that is particularly relevant to this issue in any way, much less in the specific context laid out in the original post.

  55. But note that both of you are agreeing that the specific act in question IS degrading. Isn’t an important question whether the people who enjoy engaging in it find it degrading in the first place?

    “If someone did that to me, I would feel degraded” is not sufficient to declare an absolute.

    For me, it’s not so much about whether I find an act degrading as whether the act is being represented as degrading. The same act has different meaning if it’s presented as “couple getting it on” versus “bitch taking it”.

  56. Somehow I missed the rest of your statement… So it’s even worse with you because you do know that there is objectification.

    I’m trying to stop the reverse – the overlooking of the objective and the overemphasis on the subjective. Humans have both bodies and minds.

    WTF? Who denied that we have bodies AND minds? And how the hell does overemphasizing objects help here where IMO debaters are not totally ignorant of that (In reverse to the porn industry that is totally objectifying women)?

  57. I see what you are saying here, but let’s throw out a possible example of “degrading” sexual activity.

    If a woman engages in sex with 10 men who all slap her in the face, urinate on her, tie her up, “rape” her, and call her a “worthless cum dumpster” would you not say that is degrading? I have trouble not seeing something like that degrading and people do engage in that type of activity.

    Faith, the specific act in question was a “facial” – which was instantly labeled as inherently degrading, and off went the discussion.

    Of course you can construct something degrading. But that wasn’t what was being discussed. I refuse to beleive that you think that since something can actually be degrading, therefore anything that anyone calls degrading, whether consensual or not, must be banned.

  58. The same act has different meaning if it’s presented as “couple getting it on” versus “bitch taking it”.

    Ding Ding Ding Ding!!

    My major problem with porn aside from the very real abuse that many of the performers often experience is the depiction of the sexual activity. I don’t believe that sex with two men is inherently degrading or wrong in any capacity. But when the sex is portrayed as “stupid bitch gets used, abused, and exploited by two men in exactly the way she deserves” pure fury and rage starts running through my veins…and that is the way so much of mainstream porn portrays the female performers.

  59. In #15, William Says:

    (Note: not banned. Andrea Dworkin, one of pornography’s most outspoken critics, fought for the banishment of porn from our society but vehemently opposed legal action restricting its creation or distribution. See this http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/PornAList.html and related articles.)

    You’re only telling half the story, William. Yes, Dworkin opposed traditional obscenity law and a priori censorship. She did, however, author (with Catherine MacKinnon) a very broad “civil rights” anti-pornography ordinance that allowed lawsuits against pornographers (which can be brought by “any woman” “as a woman acting against the subordination of women”) for the mere fact of it being pornography. And if you read the Dworkin-MacKinnon Model Antipornography Civil-rights Ordinance, it allows such lawsuits against creators of a very broad range of materials – pretty much anything pornographic, by definition, and quite a bit that isn’t pornographic as well. This, quite simply, is censorship, even if its not a priori censorship. The courts quite clearly saw it as such, which is why actual implimentation of the Ordinance was repeatedly struck down (most notably in American Booksellers v. Hudnut) as a violation of the First Amendment.

    I do wish this “but Dworkin/MacKinnon/anti-porn feminists never supported censorship” warhorse would be put to rest. The historic record shows that they have supported such. I think present APRFs either need to do one of two things – distance themselves from this position or own it. Because advocating laws like the Antipornography Civil-rights Ordinance or the present proposed British “extreme porn” legislation and at the same time saying one is opposed to censorship simply doesn’t fly.

  60. You know, xsplat, as a sadomasochist, I have to say that what we do with each other =/= what we show the world.

    I’ve been slapped, flogged, waxed, clamped, spit and pissed on by the person I love most in the whole world fairly regularly for years now. It hasn’t hurt us; in fact, it is a tool for intimacy. I do it in part because it is tremendously intimate for me. And we have a shared history and a common language of acts and symbols, etc. So she knows, as much as one can know another, what it means to me; and I know what it means to her.

    Now, if one were to film that and cast our pearls before the swine of patriarchy, it does not follow that they will understand what we do as we who do it understand it. And that goes a fortiori for men topping women. Some guy with no background in BDSM watching a woman get slapped and spit on isn’t seeing her experience through the lens of someone who has been there and liked it and understands why it can be so hot. He’s probably seeing it through the filter of a culture where women are useful to the extent that they contribute to men’s sexual pleasure, and it underlines for him the sense of male sexual entitlement. IMO, that’s a bad thing.

    I am at least as concerned with the representational as the production aspect of porn. Packaging things for the consumption of others changes the meaning of the thing so packaged; the closer to the participants the viewers are (culturally, that is), the more the material is like interaction and not commodity. The more distance, the more meaning is lost and the more the sexual interaction becomes a product.

    I see this as a spectrum. My favorite example is this: from time to time, friends have sent erotic photos of themselves to me for an audience of 2: me and my spouse. I know the person in the photo and I know they want me to look at it in an erotic way; the communication is so close that it is an interaction, more like phone sex than buying a porn video. Farther out, some folks produce DIY porn, say a bunch of gay men who show it to a circle of friends and acquaintances. Then there are indy pornsters who show their work to a nieche audience: strangers, but with some commonalities in how they come at the material. At the other end is Maxim and Vivid Video: the consumers are the complete run of the mill; there’s no shared understanding different from the larger culture.

    And at the Vivid end, a woman on screen getting fucked, boxed and sold for men to jack to is serving the function that patriarchy tells us all women in all circumstances serve: the video is not the thing being jacked to. The woman is the thing being jacked to. And that’s not a message that I want to pay people to reproduce on a mass scale.

    Now, to bring this full circle, just because I’m a sadomasochist doesn’t mean that I like the representative aspects of every demeaning thing done to a woman on video. While I may watch something and appreciate the interplay between top and bottom and understand what it may mean to her (even if I know she is, herself, a BDSMer and doing it in part for fun, which is tough to know), John Q. Pornfan won’t look at it that way, and may just eroticize the image of a woman getting smacked around. That ain’t good.

  61. Improving labor conditions in the sex industry seems difficult at best. As long as the work is stigmatized (and anti-porn feminists contribute to this) the likelyhood of improving labor conditions in the sex industry will be small. If the sex industry becomes less stigmatized you’ll see more of it (like an above commentator also said).

    That’s the choice. I support the former position and not waiting around until we have some utopian economy.

  62. If a woman engages in sex with 10 men who all slap her in the face, urinate on her, tie her up, “rape” her, and call her a “worthless cum dumpster” would you not say that is degrading? I have trouble not seeing something like that degrading and people do engage in that type of activity.

    I suppose it’s theoretically possible that the woman doing that sincerely felt all of those things were objectively neutral and, thus, no sense of contempt for herself for doing them, and that all 10 of the men involved also thought of all of those things as objectively neutral and cared about the woman as a human being at least as much as they cared about their own sexual pleasure and sense of power… But I agree, in the real world, it’s extremely unlikely all of those things would be true, and, thus, the act, no matter how consensual, would involve degradation.

    But, for this discussion, I’m not even that concerned about how consenting adults choose to have sex with each other, even if some of the sex is degrading–because of various psychological and social issues, people do all kinds of things that degrade themselves and each other, whether or not it involves sex. I don’t think any degradation is good–I don’t think people should have contempt for themselves or each other, full stop–but, for me, that’s not exactly the issue at hand.

    Even if, somehow, in the scenario described above, everyone involved had complete respect for themselves and each other, I still think it would be problematic if those practices were filmed and distributed for widespread consumption. A lot of the people watching the film would take it as a given that the woman was being degraded, and they would enjoy it on that basis. Basically, I guess what I’m concerned about with porn is how it can spread the message, “It’s not a problem to degrade women.”

    Lots of kinds of media also spread that message–and I have problems with those kinds of media, too–but porn often makes the degradation much more explicit, and it can provide a much more immediate, obvious reward (i.e., orgasm) for buying into it. For people who are wiling to stop and think about porn even a little, in some ways the explicit degradation might be better than the degradation in mainstream magazines, TV, and movies–some people will watch the porn and get off but still think, “Well, obviously, it’s not okay to think about women that way in real life; that’s why the porn is kind of fun, because it’s so wrong but also not connected to anything I would actually do.” And some of those people will even go on to say, “But, wait, then why do so many of these advertisements and TV shows and stuff treat women in ways that aren’t actually so different from the porn I find so wrong? Yikes!”

    But my concern is that there are many, many people who simply accept the degrading porn and let it and all the other degrading cultural messages about women reinforce each other. And that’s a concern I have even when everyone participating in the porn respects each other, and when the porn doesn’t even involve actual people, but rather text or CGI images or something.

    I do also have concerns about sex workers/people in the porn industry who are degraded, exploited and/or in danger, but, for me, that falls more in line with my concern about the degradation, exploitation, and danger people in other industries face too. But I certainly don’t think these concerns should be ignored, and I do think it makes sense to talk about different industries separately, to address their unique issues. And I understand if people do want to focus their objections to porn on the basis of how real people in the industry are treated; it’s just that, for me, that’s not my objection to porn itself.

  63. Does the porn control the viewer? Or does the viewer control the porn?

    If you show folks a given scene (libidojournal’s example is great) do we blame the producer(s), the actor(s), or the viewer(s) for mentally classifying a scene as “hot consensual sex” versus “degrading sex?” IOW is it the representation that’s the problem, our interpretation, or a combination of both?

  64. I refuse to beleive that you think that since something can actually be degrading, therefore anything that anyone calls degrading, whether consensual or not, must be banned.

    Excuse me? Where exactly did I say that anything should be banned? Can’t recall doing such a thing…

  65. Faith, the specific act in question was a “facial” – which was instantly labeled as inherently degrading, and off went the discussion.

    Whether anyone else labeled facials as inherently degrading, I did not. I was simply throwing out an example of sexual act that would almost certainly be classified by virtually anyone as degrading. Now whether or not we should try to stop people in engaging in such degrading activity is an entirely different matter. I, for one, find many extreme sexual activities degrading, -however-, I do not run around telling people that they can not do them. I will not stop calling them degrading or believing that these particular activities are almost always dangerous to some extent while engaged in patriarchal societies, however.

  66. IACB, you’re painting the Model Ordinance with too broad a brush. Now, I have a problem with it in that it directly targeted depictions of BDSM, which I think ought to exist for those of us who are BDSMers (though see above, I have a problem with the mainstream viewing what we do through its lens). And there are parts of the ordinance that are broad. But the idea of a private right of action for a woman who was forced to participate in porn? Say, by a husband who said he’s kick her out of the house and sue for custody if she stopped making porn? Well, she should have a cause of action. The ordinance got thrown out wholesale, so we never saw how it would work on the ground, and I have problems with parts of it, but I think it was really rather a clever way to come at the problem.

  67. My major problem with porn aside from the very real abuse that many of the performers often experience is the depiction of the sexual activity. I don’t believe that sex with two men is inherently degrading or wrong in any capacity. But when the sex is portrayed as “stupid bitch gets used, abused, and exploited by two men in exactly the way she deserves” pure fury and rage starts running through my veins…and that is the way so much of mainstream porn portrays the female performers.

    Mine too.

    Question for any past and present porn performers in this discussion: what sort of say, and what sort of notice, do you generally have with respect to how your performance is used? I.e., do you typically know ahead of time that the people selling your image are/aren’t going to label you as a “stupid bitch who gets what she deserves”?

  68. This does mean trading pleasure for values; for example, avoiding material that’s advertised in misogynist ways, or where I’m not confident the performers aren’t being coerced. I suspect a lot of guys don’t do this, either because they actively enjoy the misogyny, because they’re neutral to it, or because they’re bothered by it but don’t know how to find material that doesn’t have it.

    Libidiojournal: You’re just plain wrong there. Quite a few guys do actively seek out porn that isn’t (or is less) misogynistic. I personally changed my porn consumption habits because of misogyny long before I started to become actively interested in feminism.

    Still, it would probably be accurate to say that most guys don’t, but the three reasons you cited aren’t that common. I haven’t known many guys who are actively turned on by misogyny, and its kind of a hard thing to be neutral to. Also, men are not stupid. If a guy is bothered by something he sees in porn he’ll likely find porn that doesn’t have that factor. Even if you aren’t willing to spend a dollar, the market is flooded with something to cater to any nuance you can imagine. No, the reason most men accept misogyny in their porn is because they just don’t see it. Its privilege, pure and simple.

    In any expert level argument about social problems you risk forgetting that not everyone is an expert in the subject you care so much about. Hell, theres a good chance they haven’t even thought about it. When you’re talking about something that effects a traditionally oppressed group, that danger becomes even more grave. Guys look at porn and they see people fucking, thats what they’re looking for, thats what they get. They aren’t analyzing the content or thinking about the implications or considering what the performers had for breakfast or who they’ll vote for in November. They’re slipping into a little bit of fantasy.

    Thats the reason the porn industry is as bad as it is. Most guys would never imagine coercion taking place because that isn’t really something in their field of view. They aren’t really thinking about what it means when a performer says “yeah bitch, take it” because they aren’t paying attention to what the performer is saying. And the problem just compounds itself. Most guys see porn long before they ever have a partner, which means their ideas about what is normative are influenced by someone else’s fantasy.

  69. In any expert level argument about social problems you risk forgetting that not everyone is an expert in the subject you care so much about. Hell, theres a good chance they haven’t even thought about it. When you’re talking about something that effects a traditionally oppressed group, that danger becomes even more grave. Guys look at porn and they see people fucking, thats what they’re looking for, thats what they get. They aren’t analyzing the content or thinking about the implications or considering what the performers had for breakfast or who they’ll vote for in November.

    You know, I believe this is actually often the case. I believe many men are just so numb or uneducated to the reality women face that they just don’t notice the misogyny. For instance, I found a website once that really ticked me off. I sent the link to a very dear male friend. He saw nothing but a woman giving a blowjob. I saw a woman with a twenty dollar bill plastered to her forehead (literally) as she gave a blowjob with the words “stupid slut couldn’t pay her rent so she came to us and we exploited the stupid slut for $20!!” written beside the picture. Those aren’t the exact words but that was pretty close to it. He didn’t see any of that even though it was -right- there. It was like he was just completely unable to see it for whatever reason.

  70. “Question for any past and present porn performers in this discussion: what sort of say, and what sort of notice, do you generally have with respect to how your performance is used? I.e., do you typically know ahead of time that the people selling your image are/aren’t going to label you as a “stupid bitch who gets what she deserves”?

    Depends on who you are working with. Signing on to shoot a photospread for Suicide Girls? Unlikely. Signing up to do a video for “whore abuse”, rather self explanitory. You can tell by looking at the other products that pornographer has made previously, you can ask, you can talk to them…but looking at their other work is usually a good indication.

  71. He saw nothing but a woman giving a blowjob. I saw a woman with a twenty dollar bill plastered to her forehead (literally) as she gave a blowjob with the words “stupid slut couldn’t pay her rent so she came to us and we exploited the stupid slut for $20!!” written beside the picture. Those aren’t the exact words but that was pretty close to it. He didn’t see any of that even though it was -right- there. It was like he was just completely unable to see it for whatever reason.

    I should also add that this man is pretty educated in women’s oppression and has actually campaigned for women’s rights. So it was particularly shocking that an educated, sophisticated, compassionate man couldn’t even see the blatant misogyny on that particular site.

  72. I think that some guys just don’t see it, but in a lot of cases I think it’s hard to miss. I noticed that a lot of porn producers didn’t seem to like the women they featured very much long before I knew very much about feminism; you said something along the same lines. I think that, while some guys may be blind to this sort of thing, a lot of guys *do* see it, but care a lot more about their gratification. Which is privilege of another form.

  73. Faith, I don’t want to get into a “when did I ever say that” round back and forth. It seems to me that you took a fruitful line of discussion way off by coming up with an extreme example, when whether a much more minor one being problematic was the point at hand.

    But that boat has now sailed utterly and it is unlikely the thread will ever get back there, so oh well to that one.

    Since we are now talking about extreme versions of the point, I guess for me it matters whether or not it is marketed that way. Gay porn tends to be either pretty solidly vanilla or clearly marketed to an S/M crowd, and the fact that everyone is the same gender really blurs any sense that a particular group is being objectified.

    So, in theory (as I have no practical experience), it seems to me that films specifically filmed as BDSM, and marketed to and for the BDSM crowd might be very different than simply including scenes like you mentioned in otherwise “vanilla” porn. Or would it?
    I agree with you that simply presenting the scene you described as “sex” rather than as a BDSM scene changes its meaning. Rather than being presented as the depiction of consenting adults choosing to play out a scenario (such as you might see at a BDSM party), if it is presented as though it were something that actually happened for real (ignoring the fact that it is still paid actors) as though you might happen across it in a bar or alley makes it a whole lot different, as different as watching a slasher movie compared to a demo movie for how to do special effects.

    But honestly, a serious question to the whole crowd – how prevalent is that sort of “10 on 1 the bitch deserves it” really shown in straight porn, as opposed to the “sorry your pizza is late, how can I make it up to you” sort of thing? Is it really that prevalent? I’m sure those films are out there, but are they really the norm?

    In the vast majority of gay porn, even the extreme BDSM ones, most of the time, everybody is having fun, top or bottom, and I guess that seriously colors my picture of all porn. How does straight porn work? Is there really a lot of porn showing women who aren’t into it?

  74. “You’re just plain wrong there. Quite a few guys do actively seek out porn that isn’t (or is less) misogynistic.”

    Eh? Really? Then why is it that degrading misogynist “bitches get their comeuppance” porn is so prevalent, both on the internet and on the shelves? If it’s not because most guys happily consume it?

  75. Faith, I don’t want to get into a “when did I ever say that” round back and forth. It seems to me that you took a fruitful line of discussion way off by coming up with an extreme example, when whether a much more minor one being problematic was the point at hand.

    Ok, but that was only your interpretation. My interpretation was more along the lines of trying to discuss what is or is not inherently degrading. And if anyone wishes to discuss facials, I don’t see why they couldn’t still do that even at this point.

  76. But honestly, a serious question to the whole crowd – how prevalent is that sort of “10 on 1 the bitch deserves it” really shown in straight porn, as opposed to the “sorry your pizza is late, how can I make it up to you” sort of thing? Is it really that prevalent? I’m sure those films are out there, but are they really the norm

    In internet porn, yes. It really is that prevalent. I personally haven’t seen that much of it in DVD porn or magazine porn, but I haven’t looked at much of that in quite some time. Judging by some of the titles I’ve seen on pay per view porn I’m guessing it’s pretty prevalent there as well.

  77. If we are to have this civil conversation, my vote is for a moratorium on “anyone can see that THAT’s degrading!” type statements.

    As an SM top I’ve seen people ask for and orgasm their way through things I never would have imagined that anyone could like, want, or even crave.

    I do think there is a difference between someone hunting for tops willing to do this ‘horrible’ thing to her and not stopping until she finds them, and pornography created by an industry driven by profit and consumed by anyone.

    But I don’t think the “anyone can see that act X is degrading” locution is helpful. It turns a conversation that should be about “what does it mean to depict this and sell this?” into “Is doing, seeing, or fantasizing about bukkake ‘okay’ for feminists?”

    which is, to me, not just the wrong question but also nonsensical until you know some very specific things about everyone involved in said episode of bukkake…ing.

  78. But honestly, a serious question to the whole crowd – how prevalent is that sort of “10 on 1 the bitch deserves it” really shown in straight porn, as opposed to the “sorry your pizza is late, how can I make it up to you” sort of thing? Is it really that prevalent? I’m sure those films are out there, but are they really the norm?

    I think it’s hard to really talk about a single unified “norm” for straight porn, even non-fetish straight porn. My experience is primarly with the “free” sources – Internet and late-night premium cable. On cable, it’s really rare to find much blatant misogyny, because most of the material seems to be softcore, probably targeted to couples. On the Internet, if you’re not paying for something specific, most of what you’ll find are photos and videos which serve as advertisements for pay sites, or amateurs putting up their own material. A good chunk of the ads use extremely misogynist language; Faith’s example of the “she wanted to pay the rent and we exploited her” may not be the norm, but it’s not all that rare. Even on amateur sites like youporn a lot of the descriptions are misogynist – either in terms of “my ex-girlfriend cheated on me; here’s my revenge!” or just using bitch/slut/whore language.

    It takes some work for me to find material that simply depicts everyone involved enjoying themselves and doesn’t have some tacked-on narrative insulting the women involved.

  79. I think this discussion is getting caught up on the conflation of “$kinky thing that can be degrading in some contexts, but is enjoyed in a non degrading manner by some people” with “actual instance of someone being degraded in porn”.

    Just plain vanilla sex can be degrading, even outside of porn. But enjoying sex does not mean you enjoy degrading someone, or that you support it. But people here who’re talking about enjoying porn and kink are getting treated as if they really supported the instances that are degrading as well.

    If we can’t get past that, then no, there can’t be a constructive discussion of porn, Lisa.

    I’m in Dacia and Ren’s camp on this one – porn should be able to be made today that’s acceptable to people calling themselves feminists. Some (not all) people making porn today can be feminists, and sex workers could do without the condescension they get from anti-porn feminists.

    If we want to talk about degrading porn, I’ll admit it exists. I own some, not from purchasing it, but because it gets sent to porn reviewers, and I live with one. Some of it has been really really disgusting. I’m horrified that people like it, and want to buy or sell it, and I’m worried about the women they got to make it.

    But the fact that that’s out there should not mean that Dacia’s work deserves to be pre-judged as anti-feminist, or for that matter, that it is anti-feminist. IMO, as a man, so I’m not speaking from a position of telling anyone else what to think, Dacia’s movie not anti-feminist.

    Can we have a scale of “acceptable to feminist porn to not acceptable to feminist porn”? Because I’d be OK with that as a theoretical concept. What I’m not OK with is saying that all porn is unacceptable, and or degrading.

  80. Faith, I don’t want to get into a “when did I ever say that” round back and forth.

    I think “when did I say that” is a perfectly reasonable response when someone argues against a point one hasn’t taken. There’s no need for it to become a back-and-forth round–the person who started engaging in the argument is perfectly free to say, “Oh, right, you didn’t say that; looks like I was making an unrelated argument.”

    It seems to me that you took a fruitful line of discussion way off by coming up with an extreme example, when whether a much more minor one being problematic was the point at hand.

    Faith was responding directly to a general point I was making–not to some specific instance other people were discussing–and I found her contribution a useful opportunity for me to clarify my position.

  81. Peter:

    A lot of the more degrading gonzo type het porn is pretty prevelant, especially on the Net. The two giants of het porn, Vivid & Wicked don’t really deal in this sort of thing, but there is plenty of it out there, a great deal of which is not specifically BDSM oriented. But the thing is, with het porn, with the rise of the net, people can find just about anything, no matter their kink, body type, theme, mood, out there. So while this type of porn is out there, even prevelant, it’s not “All Het Porn”.

  82. Even on amateur sites like youporn a lot of the descriptions are misogynist – either in terms of “my ex-girlfriend cheated on me; here’s my revenge!” or just using bitch/slut/whore language.

    Hmm. I must be (and likely am; I don’t like most standard porn and so I’d be looking for, say, pegging rather than the usual) looking at the wrong stuff, but I’ve not seen that on YouPorn.

  83. I don’t believe that sex with two men is inherently degrading or wrong in any capacity. But when the sex is portrayed as “stupid bitch gets used, abused, and exploited by two men in exactly the way she deserves” pure fury and rage starts running through my veins…and that is the way so much of mainstream porn portrays the female performers.

    Wow, ITA. I actually walked away from the one opportunity I’ve had in my life to experience this – and I was *sorely* tempted, this is a fantasy of mine – because i was afraid of the social ramifications or heck even the physical ramifications. The ways it might suddenly turn on me and I could end up being hurt either physically or emotionally. And I *knew* the guys. They were not close friends but were part of my extended social circle, one of them identified as bi – it was about as safe as a woman could feel in that situation. And still I was uneasy enough to stop it.

    Re: degradation and the scenario Faith posited – I think the magic disconnect happens in the lens of the camera. In the room where the filming is taking place, we have no idea about the mindset of the performers. For all we know, right after they finish the 10-on-1 gangbang and the camera stop rolling, the male performers may amiably chat up the female performer about her family, her dog, whatever, help her to her feet, and they all go out for a beer together or something ( I think this is unlikely but I can’t prove it doesn’t happen). In other words, it may very well be entirely fake degradation. But once that product is packaged in order to sell it to its intended audience, the attitude of degradation is deadly serious and is part of the lure. They are marketing it specifically to people who would get off on seeing a woman treated in this way. While I’ll go ahead and say I personally think that’s Bad with a capital B, I am not sure what can be done about it without being entirely anti-porn, which I’m not.

  84. Can we have a scale of “acceptable to feminist porn to not acceptable to feminist porn”? Because I’d be OK with that as a theoretical concept.

    I don’t think we can. To me, what would count as “unacceptable” would depend on how it was produced. And that’s a lot more tricky to know than anything else is.

    Anything else — well, I do think there’s reason to have concern about what particularly stupid consumers will think or do. But I don’t know that structuring a feminist world around fear of the lowest common denominator is wise. I’ve never understood why people are so adamant about that.

  85. er, by “I’ve not seen that” I mean I’ve not seen “this is my revenge.” I’ve not heard bitch and such either, but I tend to watch porn with the sound off, so I wouldn’t know.

  86. CK, then the point Faith made worked for you in the direction it took the thread. Great. It also derailed another chuck of the thread that I was participating in. And that’s the way these threads work. The thread goes where it goes. And my points got picked up again later, more or less.

    Meanwhile, Faith, you made an important distinction that I hadn’t even thought of – I don’t watch any internet porn, much less straight stuff. I had never even thought of the distinction between homemade and posted porn and commercial porn. That clears up for me a big part of what I often find incomprehensible in porn-related threads. (And again, why trying to discuss “porn” as though it is some monolithic reality rarely works.) Thanks for that distinction.

    And it really does raise the question, which I’ve never heard asked, of whether commercial porn of the DVD type, commercial porn of the latenight cable type, or the wide world of internet porn is more infulential – and I suspect that whatever is going on on the internet problably wins hands down (a turn of phrase that sounds a bit icky in context. Eeew.)

    Still, I have now idea what the average viewer does these days, but I vividly remember my Navy buddies routinely complaining when porn had too much plot – they had to fast forward too often. So I wonder if much of whatever message may or may not be included in porn never actually gets heard by the users.

  87. RenegadeEvolution,

    Okay, next question: Given that someone who is specifically looking for a certain kink or class of kink is going to figure out how and where to find it, is it your sense that someone who isn’t that focused and is just “looking for porn” or “looking for (free/cheap) porn” is going to run across a lot, a little, an even mix, or what, of the degrading/belittling stuff, or not?

    So this particular question isn’t “is it out there” but rather “how hard do you have to look to find it / avoid it?”

  88. Josh:

    Humm, sliding scale…
    Dacia’s porn- more feministly acceptable.
    My porn- hell no, and with good reason.

    Heh, it’s a start 🙂

  89. What Ren said in #90.

    Porn isn’t a monolith, porn viewers aren’t a monolith, and even heterosexual male porn viewers aren’t a big evol monolith. Blanket statements based on such assumptions aren’t even worth the electrons they’re printed on.

  90. In #74, Thomas Says:

    IACB, you’re painting the Model Ordinance with too broad a brush. Now, I have a problem with it in that it directly targeted depictions of BDSM, which I think ought to exist for those of us who are BDSMers (though see above, I have a problem with the mainstream viewing what we do through its lens). And there are parts of the ordinance that are broad. But the idea of a private right of action for a woman who was forced to participate in porn? Say, by a husband who said he’s kick her out of the house and sue for custody if she stopped making porn? Well, she should have a cause of action. The ordinance got thrown out wholesale, so we never saw how it would work on the ground, and I have problems with parts of it, but I think it was really rather a clever way to come at the problem.

    I’m painting the Ordinance for the overly-broad, ill-conceived piece of legislation that it was, something that was rightly thrown out by the courts.

    You ask what about a woman who was forced into porn. It should be obvious that this is already illegal and there doesn’t need some special piece of legislation to make it so. In criminal law, its rape, plain and simple. In civil law, rape is also actionable, and additionally, the fact that any such porn would be released with a non-existent or invalid model release (and a coerced model release is an invalid contract by definition) is also actionable.

    This is all basic common law. If such laws aren’t being enforced around pornography, then that’s a problem that needs to be addressed. What I don’t see is where novel legislation is needed in this regard. I also think that laws that specifically treat pornography according to a wholly different legal standard from other media are inherently misguided and wrong.

  91. Josh: Actually, i think the average het porn “cruiser” is probably going to run into it. I don’t know HOW often…I mean, if his/her search terms are “pretty blonde having sex”, they might find it, but they will probably find a lot more less degrading stuff.

    Wishy:

    ” think the magic disconnect happens in the lens of the camera. In the room where the filming is taking place, we have no idea about the mindset of the performers. For all we know, right after they finish the 10-on-1 gangbang and the camera stop rolling, the male performers may amiably chat up the female performer about her family, her dog, whatever, help her to her feet, and they all go out for a beer together or something ( I think this is unlikely but I can’t prove it doesn’t happen).”

    It happens.

  92. Josh: Actually, i think the average het porn “cruiser” is probably going to run into it. I don’t know HOW often…I mean, if his/her search terms are “pretty blonde having sex”, they might find it, but they will probably find a lot more less degrading stuff.

    But then the question becomes: does he click on the links that look like they have the nice blonde having fun, or do they click on REVENGE GANG BANG WE MAKE HER PAY?

    It would seem to me that they might well NOT click on #2, as that’s not what “pretty blonde having sex” implies — any more than when I google something like “gay leathermen” and get results including random hets fisting, or whatever, I’m going to click on that…

    and even if he DOES click, the worry seems to be that the degrading stuff is so incredibly mesmerizing that looking once at it is like the “one time doing heroin and you’re hooked” thing…

    …and I just wonder why it is that feminists think those images have THAT kind of power.

    I have some very violent fantasies of my own… yet my porn collection is full of all sorts of different things. Fancy that. Maybe BDSM stuff isn’t heroin and I need more of a taste for something else to understand?

    Actually, if anyone remembers that recent “porn drive” by the hackers harassing certain people… I had a look at what they were collecting, and I was utterly stunned by how much of it was… *drumroll* softcore pictures of naked women standing around smiling.

  93. Okay. Trying not to be a smartass, please forgive me. Nicotine withdrawal is rough – and that’s an explanation, not an excuse.

    People who are happy that you’re happy looking at them are even sexier.

    Someone who is unhappy about you looking at them is not sexy (which is good).

    Finding out that the hawt model who is posing in pure submissive sexual heat is a 17-year-old latvian who has been living in essentially what is slavery for the last year is deeply depressing. Doing something to change the idea of what is acceptable (such as speaking up when some Alpha-d00d is being a fuckwad) is a Good Thing.

    Finding out that the person posing in the pictures is bored and just wants to get the paycheck and go home kills the fantasy, but makes your expectations more realistic, and your enjoyment greater when you see exhibitionism for the joy of it (as comparatively rare as that is).

    Bodies are neat. Enjoy them. The human instincts for dominance, submission, group, and need for touch can be used and abused for all kinds of things. Be careful.

    The ends do not justify the means, the ends by definition create the means, and therefore they are integral parts of each other.

    Okay, I’m done.

    *goes to peddle his fortune cookies elsewhere*

  94. CK, then the point Faith made worked for you in the direction it took the thread. Great. It also derailed another chuck of the thread that I was participating in.

    Peter: when someone talks about “derailment” or tells someone “It seems to me that you took a fruitful line of discussion way off by coming up with an extreme example, when whether a much more minor one being problematic was the point at hand,” it sounds like, “You shouldn’t have said that here.” I think any man in a feminist space should be extremely cautious about saying anything that sounds like that.

    Moreover, you yourself have said that, in a thread, people take up related but different topics, based on their interests, and the thread goes where it goes. Given that Faith was responding directly to my comment, and given that you know people are justified in responding to different relevant points in a thread, I don’t see the need to chastise her for responding to my comment instead of talking about a smaller issue (an issue which was not the overall “point at hand,” but simply a smaller point related to the point at hand that you happen to find interesting).

    I’m actually not interested in turning this discussion into a discussion of how people are allowed to discuss things, but I also don’t like to see people’s contributions characterized as “derailment” when they’re discussing the topic at hand in good faith.

  95. Lisa, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but I am leary of a discussion that claims to not want to “have the same fight over and over” that links to fights over a year old.

    Still, I will try.

    This discussion seems to be taking place in a vaccum, as though male sexual domination of women wasn’t becoming more and more visible and mainstream every day. While everyone seems very intent on justifying their own particular way of getting off, another key question is:
    how is this increasing visibility of porn being accepted in the mainstream affecting women and girls? (this being a feminist blog.)

    I see some alarming trends surfacing as porn becomes more and more accepted, for starters:

    ~mainstream “normal” expectations of women’s and girls’ bodies are farther and farther from their natural born selves–fake breasts, botox, sexualized young kids outfits, etc. Notice how the cable news women

    ~mainstream ideas of the “norm” becoming more and more hardcore — ie anal is the new blowjob, now vaginally surgery is gaining widely in popularity to “correct” “ugly” vaginas.

    ~ woman and girls being valued soley for their sex appeal and not for whatever else they add to the human equation (brains, talent, brawn, creativity,e tc.)

    I guess my point is that, in relation to porn, the degradation is already simulated, and not real, and so those that watch it can get off without feeling that someone is actually degraded.

    How do we say that the degradation is simulated in porn consumed publically? If you are seeing a woman degraded, and you are getting off, how is that simulated?
    And more importantly, how does that make you see women IRL? What societal benefit is there from encouraging the attachtment of one’s sexual response to degradation?

    And studies show that once one gets turned on to degrading porn, the most one needs over time to get turned on. Where does this end?

    meaning that instead of warping my sense of what’s right and wrong with regard to gender relations to accomodate that which turns me on, I seek out material that doesn’t trigger my misogyny, racism, homophobia, etc. detectors. This does mean trading pleasure for values; for example, avoiding material that’s advertised in misogynist ways, or where I’m not confident the performers aren’t being coerced.

    Trading pleasure for values? Doesn’t that mean you would get more pleasure from going against your values? Don’t you just counter your own argument when you admit that more misogyny =more pleasure?

  96. I do think there’s reason to have concern about what particularly stupid consumers will think or do. But I don’t know that structuring a feminist world around fear of the lowest common denominator is wise.

    Right, that’s the thing–with patriarchal oppression in place, the specifics of what happens aren’t actually that important. People can get rid of porn, women can cover up their bodies, and in an oppressive enough patriarchy, men can feel justified in seeing a woman as an object deserving rape if they see her knee or ankle. I don’t think it’s the “raciness” of porn that’s the problem; it’s the attitudes underlying how the porn is made and received.

    And, certainly, porn can be problematic in how it reinforces those attitudes. But, to my mind, the reinforcement doesn’t come from how explicit or kinky or not the sex is.

  97. oops–hanging sentence:

    Notice how many female spokeswomen– a good example is cable news women–now have the unmistakable look of porn stars. Does any suppose this is a coincidence?

  98. meaning that instead of warping my sense of what’s right and wrong with regard to gender relations to accomodate that which turns me on, I seek out material that doesn’t trigger my misogyny, racism, homophobia, etc. detectors. This does mean trading pleasure for values; for example, avoiding material that’s advertised in misogynist ways, or where I’m not confident the performers aren’t being coerced.

    Trading pleasure for values? Doesn’t that mean you would get more pleasure from going against your values? Don’t you just counter your own argument when you admit that more misogyny =more pleasure?

    I can’t speak for the original author of the quote within the quote, but I did bring this up in my original post, so I’d like to amplify.

    To me, being willing to trade pleasure for values means being willing to seriously interrogate what kind of porn you like, and if you realize that the porn is conveying a message you object to, is produced in a way that’s unethical, or is in any other way creating a byproduct you can’t support—whether or not the negative thing has anything to do with what gets you off about it—being ready to give it up. Less pleasure (giving up things you like is unpleasant), more values.

    Then again, living more in line with one’s values generally brings a kind of satisfaction that is itself pleasurable (in a very different way than hawt porn).

    So maybe trading pleasure for values was the wrong way to put it in the first place.

  99. Finding out that the person posing in the pictures is bored and just wants to get the paycheck and go home kills the fantasy, but makes your expectations more realistic, and your enjoyment greater when you see exhibitionism for the joy of it (as comparatively rare as that is).

    Yes, which is why I’ve never thought being anti-porn where that includes being against non-mainstream porn (or interpreting “non-mainstream porn” as “Suicide Girls,” etc.) made much sense. Shouldn’t we as feminists be putting our energy into helping those people get a bigger share of the market, or putting pressure on the industry to be more like the smaller producers if possible?

  100. Oops, something went wrong with the formatting above.

    The first block quote was meant to be a quote within a quote, as the second paragraph is a quote from maribelle’s comment above.

    My comments start with the third paragraph.

    And also, I just want to say that I’m so happy that this conversation is happening.

  101. maribelle: i still think there is vast difference, appearance wise, between the MSNBC corespondent and Jenna Jameson… I find it probable, even likely, that newswomen might get botox, but I don’t know if I would say they have the unmistakeable look of pornstars. That seems a bit much.

  102. Peter Asks:

    “Okay, next question: Given that someone who is specifically looking for a certain kink or class of kink is going to figure out how and where to find it, is it your sense that someone who isn’t that focused and is just “looking for porn” or “looking for (free/cheap) porn” is going to run across a lot, a little, an even mix, or what, of the degrading/belittling stuff, or not?”

    I have a hard time picturing someone not being “focused” when looking for porn. Chances are, somebody who’s searching for porn already has a pretty clear idea of what types of models and what types of acts turn them on and is going to search accordingly.

    There’s a real problem with the whole narrative around pornography that holds that porn consumers are utterly passive, and only find particular things a turn-on because the porn industry perverts or brainwashes them into it.

  103. Right, that’s the thing–with patriarchal oppression in place, the specifics of what happens aren’t actually that important. People can get rid of porn, women can cover up their bodies, and in an oppressive enough patriarchy, men can feel justified in seeing a woman as an object deserving rape if they see her knee or ankle.

    Yes, exactly. I think a lot of the “slippery slope” type things — “oh, if ‘anal is the new blowjob’, what will come NEXT?” are odd, since men have considered themselves to have a right to women’s bodies since time immemorial, irrespective of how sexually permissive or “wild” the culture has or has not been.

  104. But then the question becomes: does he click on the links that look like they have the nice blonde having fun, or do they click on REVENGE GANG BANG WE MAKE HER PAY?

    It would seem to me that they might well NOT click on #2, as that’s not what “pretty blonde having sex” implies —

    But the “revenge gang bang we make her pay” could easily have a pretty blonde having sex in it, and to some guy who thinks of all the porn simply as images there to get him off, and who just wants to see a pretty blonde and sex, why wouldn’t he give it a try?

    And the concern isn’t that the guy will be instantly addicted to revenge gang-bang scenarios and will no longer want to see any images of women enjoying sex. But there is an issue in which people start to think of them as the same thing (not necessarily in the real world, but at least for the sake of their fantasies)–the straight male porn market is set up so that it’s very easy for a lot of people to start thinking of sex that’s degrading to women not as a violent or kinky fantasy, but as pretty straightforward and unremarkable. And that’s problematic particularly because it’s part of the larger pattern of society making the degradation of women straightforward and unremarkable.

    A flip issue is that this kind of porn can also make it trickier for women to get the kind of sex they want. If a woman hasn’t been exposed to all the porn that makes it seem dirty, I actually don’t think it would be strange for her to like the idea of a man coming on her as a very vanilla preference, just because she finds the sight and feel of it a turn-on–being turned on by orgasm seems pretty vanilla to me. But if she’s choosing her sex partners from vanilla guys who genuinely respect women, and these guys have seen much porn at all, she could likely have her work cut out for her in convincing them that doing what she wants isn’t a sign of disrespect or of her having self-esteem issues they need to be cautious about indulging, for the sake of her mental health.

    Heck, I remember in high school when some nice boys said they’d never accept a blowjob, because it was such a terrible thing to do to a woman. I haven’t kept in touch with them, but now that they’re much older and have probably figured out that sex in general isn’t so icky as they once thought, hopefully they’ll have realized that there genuinely are women who enjoy giving blowjobs. But a lot of porn does make that kind of realization harder, when it’s so easy to come across videos where unhappy women’s heads are held in place as men ram into them, or stories where penises are referred to as “weapons” and semen as “venom.”

  105. And studies show that once one gets turned on to degrading porn, the most one needs over time to get turned on.

    This sounds an awful lot like the same arguments fundies use about homosexuality. Once you step off the straight and narrow, you’re on the downhill slide to sin and degradation; there is no such thing as moderation, you’ll just crave more and more thrills.

    On the subject of porn as a message about women, do note that in the US, that gives porn more First Amendment protection, not less. Obscene material has no redeeming value whatsoever. An empty-headed, extremely explicit feminist porn video is less “worthy” of free speech than a sexualized ‘art film’ whose message is that women are good for nothing but to serve men.

  106. I see some alarming trends surfacing as porn becomes more and more accepted,

    I think these are great points maribelle brings up.

    And, actually, this is also part of the reason I feel so discomfited to see so much gleeful public attention put on the exploits of the likes of Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan, and now the young woman who represented South Carolina in the Miss Teen USA contest. I see a pattern of putting a huge amount of undue attention on women primarily for their being female, young, white and dressed, groomed, and otherwise body-modified in very particular ways, with a lot of public response consisting of “I’d tap that.” And then there’s a huge, undue amount of attention given to humiliating situations they may be in, with a lot of public response consisting of hooting and aspersions and treating the women as objects that exist to be mocked.

    To me, it really seems like a public enactment of the way women are treated in mainstream degrading porn, just without the explicit sex. It still feels dirty the same way degrading porn does.

  107. stories where penises are referred to as “weapons” and semen as “venom.”

    I’ve been reading your comment and thinking something didn’t quite seem right and then suddenly Had A Thought.

    As with all such Thoughts, be advised that it was a sudden ZING! and not a well-thought-out point.

    But for me, the oogy factor of bodily fluids was always there, long before I knew about “degrading fantasy” stuff

    and that was because of AIDS. Sex ed, if you’re my age, drilled into your head when you were twelve: cum IS venom. DON’T GET IT IN YOU. Have sex, sure, but cover and wrap and glove and dam and…

    …it really makes me wonder, suddenly, if that “cum as gross/dirty/venom” meme came just as much from the era of AIDS as it did from upping the misogynist stakes on film.

  108. Misogynist porn is not the problem, it is a symptom of the problem. The problem is the capitalist patriarchy, and if we removed that, there would be no more market for misogynist porn.

    Misogynist porn bothers me but there’ s no point in trying to get rid of it. We have to change the social construct of masculinity.

  109. Trading pleasure for values? Doesn’t that mean you would get more pleasure from going against your values? Don’t you just counter your own argument when you admit that more misogyny =more pleasure?

    Here’s what it means for me:

    Occasionally when I’m surfing for porn, I’ll find an image or video clip of someone I find especially attractive, or doing something I find particularly hot, but it’ll be placed in a context I’ll find unacceptable. Maybe it’s that the other performers act in a hateful manner toward her, maybe it’s that she’s called bitch/slut/whore on the web site, maybe it’s just that I’m not confident that the production was totally above board. It’s not that these aspects turn me on more, but not overlooking these things, I’m choosing values over pleasure.

  110. i still think there is vast difference, appearance wise, between the MSNBC corespondent and Jenna Jameson

    Yeah, I think I just see the trend towards cosmetic procedures becoming the norm for most any public figures (porn stars, mainstream movie and TV stars, politicians, etc.) as just part of the societal pattern of thinking women have to look particular ways to be proper women. I’d assume that the trend towards plastic surgery for vaginas would originate with porn stars only being represented with particular kinds of vaginas, but I think the pressure to have the other kinds of surgeries would much more to do with the non-diverse, surgery-modified images in non-pornographic magazines, movies, and TV shows.

    Well, and actually, I’m not even sure about the vagina surgeries. I actually haven’t seen much porn that visually represents vaginas, and I don’t know how many women in the industry have that kind of surgery. I think it’s even more likely that, because of societal shaming in general and the lack of information and representation, lots of women, for generations, have felt shame about their vaginas and have assumed theirs was unusually ugly instead of normal, and so now that they here there’s surgery for it, they want to get it “fixed.”

    I do think there’s a problematic trend, though, of expecting women to strive to look as good as someone who could be in the sex industry (for the narrow, mainstream view of what that would mean), even if the sex industry would be a terrible match for their preferences, interests, and values, and of men feeling more free to openly tell women how they match up to that. I don’t know if that’s actually worse than men expecting “nice” women to match up to the likes of, say, June Cleaver, but I guess it seems bad because the porny expectation seems more like an addition rather than a replacement. I mean, earlier, it seemed more like women were unfairly expected to choose between being a virgin or a whore. With the mainstreaming of misogynistic porn, now it seems like women are unfairly expected to figure out how to be both virgin and whore–with, as before, neither of those designations being considered worthy of the same respect as being a man.

  111. This sounds an awful lot like the same arguments fundies use about homosexuality. Once you step off the straight and narrow, you’re on the downhill slide to sin and degradation; there is no such thing as moderation, you’ll just crave more and more thrills.

    YES. Which… well, in the fundie case at least, definitely reveals something about the people making the statement: Gay sex is simply so APPEALING no one can resist, no matter how pious!

    And well, yeah, the anti-porn case is different, as the point isn’t that NO ONE can resist, but simply that MEN can’t.

    Which still strikes me as… centered in a particular conception about what it means to be male, what it means to experience sexual desire, or both together.

  112. The problem is the capitalist patriarchy, and if we removed that, there would be no more market for misogynist porn.

    Agreed, but something that has come up repeatedly in this thread is that misogynist porn unmistakably perpetuates the (a la bell hooks I would add white-supremacist) capitalist patriarchy in addition to being a symptom of it.

    The social construct of masculinity is also affected by porn just as it affects porn. None of this is unidirectional, which is what makes it so difficult to tackle.

    I was hoping that Robert Jensen’s forthcoming “Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity” (from the usually-way-more fantastic-than-this-book South End Press) would shed some good light, but I found that it…didn’t (more on that in an upcoming book review section of Bitch).

  113. Hey folks, I just want to let you know I’m heading away from the interwebs until late evening and so things will get stuck in the mod queue until then.

  114. Josh: Actually, i think the average het porn “cruiser” is probably going to run into it. I don’t know HOW often…I mean, if his/her search terms are “pretty blonde having sex”, they might find it, but they will probably find a lot more less degrading stuff.

    Ren: did you try actually googling your terms?

    I’m not gonna do the quotes, but I think this was a little telling:

    “pretty blonde having sex”: 2,520 hits
    “pretty blonde having sex” -whore: 7 hits
    “pretty blonde having sex” -slut: 5 hits
    “pretty blonde having sex” -bitch: 3 hits

    Now I know that not everyone thinks those terms are inherently degrading, but that’s a pretty astounding result.

  115. it really makes me wonder, suddenly, if that “cum as gross/dirty/venom” meme came just as much from the era of AIDS as it did from upping the misogynist stakes on film

    Except then why would that be seen as erotic? Most porn, for the sake of building up a fantasy, strives to eliminate the gross and dangerous realities of sex, unless it’s about using the gross/dangerous realities to degrade one of the participants. I mean, the fact that semen *can* be so much more dangerous in the AIDS era only emphasizes the misogyny of the audience being expected to get off on the fact it’s being forced into the woman (which is how these stories characterize it).

    And I haven’t seen stories that referred to the fluids women produce during sex as “venom,” even though women’s fluids also transmit diseases. I also haven’t seen stories written by and about gay men refer to semen as venom. Now, in the case of gay stories, I wouldn’t be surprised if I did find that kind of wording if I specifically sought out gay stories dedicated to degradation (or stories specifically about eroticizing the dangerous aspects of sex with HIV+ people). But part of my point is that it’s very easy to stumble across stories in het porn that are degrading to women, without specifically looking for it.

  116. To follow up on what I was saying before:

    With the mainstreaming of misogynistic porn, now it seems like women are unfairly expected to figure out how to be both virgin and whore–with, as before, neither of those designations being considered worthy of the same respect as being a man.

    This is not to say I think, however, that , even without feminist intervention, this trend will persist for all time. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if soon there’s another trend that expects “nice” women to prove how demure and “classy” they are (there’s a nice, loaded word, isn’t there?). I also don’t mean to say that I think a change in the current trend will automatically mean things will be better for women; without big changes to society, things would just be bad in a different way.

    I suppose what I was really trying to do in the post above is describe the specific ways I think things are bad now, even though I don’t think addressing those specifics will solve the underlying problems. The description does help me resist the specific current problems, at least.

  117. libidojournal Says:

    “pretty blonde having sex”: 2,520 hits

    I did this test and got 15 hits. Specifically:

    “pretty blonde having sex” -whore: 11 hits
    “pretty blonde having sex” +whore: 8 hits

    (Doesn’t exactly add up to 15, but google tests are weird that way.)

  118. Except then why would that be seen as erotic?

    This isn’t any sort of well-thought-out theory, but I’d say because sexual desire often exists despite or alongside worries or fears. Think about all the queerfolk in the world who unfortunately believe the lies some people sell about same-gender desire or love: that it’s sinful, bad, bad for you, etc… yet still feel the desires.

  119. Ren:

    Josh: Actually, i think the average het porn “cruiser” is probably going to run into it. I don’t know HOW often…I mean, if his/her search terms are “pretty blonde having sex”, they might find it, but they will probably find a lot more less degrading stuff.

    I’m not as concerned about frequency as I am about the acceptance of just the existence of feminist acceptable porn. If no porn is acceptable, why bother worrying if “The Bi Apple” is OK, but “Fresh Thai Cream Pies” is not?

    That said, the internet has been enabling for both people with freaky degradation fetishes, feminists, and people who want feminist porn. But then so was the printing press.

    the main issue *is* the capitalist patriarchy. The question I’d like to see addressed is if we have to somehow boycott it, or if we can subvert it from within while we’re fighting it?

    I get 8 hits for “pretty blonde having sex” -whore and 5 for “pretty blonde having sex” + whore

    OTOH, I get 4,220 for “fuck that whore” and 12 for “make love to that woman”.

    If misogynistic porn is so far in the majority, I see making non-misogynistic porn (if such a thing can exist) as an act of rebellion. that’s all for tonight.

    So far, this discussion *has* been fairly rancor free for me. Nifty. Thanks, Lisa and Feministe! You rock!

  120. climaxing outside the body is a porn convention.

    Oh please. I prefer guys to cum ON me, rather than IN me, personally. I get yeast infections frequently if they cum in me, so i only allow that if they’re wearing a condom, in which case, they’re not really cumming in me, are they? of course, i’ve never had it on my face (well, on purpose anyway…)

    i don’t think it’s degrading, and i don’t think this means i “like being degraded during sex”. everyone has they’re preferences.

    and i highly doubt “porn” invented anything. anything you see on porn has surely been done already just without the camera.

  121. Nah, I cannot say as I did my own goggle experiment (bad science, Ren, bad!), just an idea I figured I’d throw out there. Truth is, I know what kind of porn I like, so that’s pretty much all look for. Shrug.

  122. Sidestepping the specific matter of porn, I’ve been thinking further on why it’s so difficult to discuss these matters without rehashing the same fights.[Pardon my longwindedness; I’ve been thinking about this matter all day at work, and this is my first chance at posting. The following has been written as abstractly as possible to avoid unintentional offense; add additional caveats and hedges as you feel necessary.]Based on my own personal experience, I suspect people generally have considered the arguments from multiple “sides” in developing their position on certain issues.For example, as a young feminist, I was heavily influenced by “radical feminist” ideology. Over time, my beliefs moved closer to what’s stereotypically considered “sex positive.”Likewise, I’ve read several “radical feminist” bloggers who say they used to hold “sex positive” attitudes.Thus, I think it’s safe to posit that at least some people in these discussions are informed about the ideology they don’t espouse.That leads me to two further inferences which complicate efforts towards harmonious discussion:1) Merely repeating the standard arguments in support of one’s position won’t actually further the discussion if people on the “other” side have already considered and rejected those arguments.Been there. Done that. Say something new, why don’t you?Frankly, it can feel insulting. Don’t you think I already know that?2) There’s a logical fallacy that:

    I used to believe A.Now I believe anti!A.Therefore, it’s possible that other A-believers are just further behind on the same path towards enlightenment.

    It’s a perfectly reasonable sentiment, given the evidence each individual has regarding their own experience.And it even may be true in some cases. But not everyone is taking the same journey.Such assumptions often lead people to describe those with whom they disagree in condescending terms like “ignorant,” “inexperienced,” “shallow,” “conformist,” “in denial,” or “unexamined.”This language conveys an undercurrent of superiority — that the speaker/writer knows the other people better than they know themselves.For those on the receiving end of such remarks, it can be difficult not to respond with feelings of defensiveness.I don’t have any answers on how to bridge the gap, but this suggests to me some ways in which our usual patterns of discourse are failing us.Maybe by recognizing and avoiding these pitfalls, we can find our way to more productive discussions of these hotbutton issues.I just want to close with two quotes I like, expressing similar sentiments in possibly more accessible language:Darkrose, January 2006:

    “Most people hate being condescended to. Being lectured at by someone who presumes that because I haven’t come to the same conclusion they have means I haven’t thought about it triggers a knee-jerk “fuck you, and the horse upon which you rode in” response. That goes for what I eat as well as what I write.”

    Happy Feminist, July 2006:

    “I recognize that a person may have thought through all the issues, examined all of her assumptions, and simply reached different conclusions than I have … Even though I think the women with whom I disagree are wrong, I am capable of recognizing that they may have considered the issue.”

  123. This isn’t any sort of well-thought-out theory, but I’d say because sexual desire often exists despite or alongside worries or fears. Think about all the queerfolk in the world who unfortunately believe the lies some people sell about same-gender desire or love: that it’s sinful, bad, bad for you, etc… yet still feel the desires.

    Right, but porn doesn’t tend to deal with those things, unless it’s porn that has to do with degradation. Porn tends to make pretty much everything about sexual desire, so if the porn is about something the producer and/or intended audience has more complicated but unexamined feelings about (whether that’s potentially dangerous body fluids, gay identity, sexual women, black men, etc.), the porn is likely to make those things either the instrument or object of punishment/degradation, as if to get those complicated feelings out of the way, and eroticize the whole process, so the porn can still be focused on sexual desire.

    I guess that’s also the difference I see between porn and other literature/film/imagery that has sexually explicit material. To me, porn isn’t going to use the medium to meditate on more complicated feelings, issues, or consequences tied in with what’s represented in the porn (though I do think it’s very possible for people to produce thoughtful porn, in that it comes from people who’ve put thought into what kinds of sexual desires they do and don’t want the porn to represent and inspire). I think this is also why some things that aren’t sexually explicit, but are meant to represent and inspire raw feelings and discard complications unexamined, still feel like porn to me (though not necessarily in their ability to get people off, depending on the kinds of raw feelings involved).

  124. I wouldn’t pay much attention to google hits, because a lot of porn pages are afflicted with word salad, a sort of meaningless glossolalia having nothing to do with the contents of the page. For example, when I googled “pretty blonde having sex,” I got a page like this

    busty amateur web cam free gift bi
    posing her body Sexy slut in bigcock sex Slim Sam showing her tits Hot secretary licking on cocks Sweet babe in hot action Horny chick with pierced pussy Busty blonde wild scene Tattooed horny babe in action Pretty blonde having sex Hot momma in lace panties Sweet babe takes a cock Mature gal in red panties Naked nasty babe on sofa Hot babe fucked dog style Hot chick poked in pussy Wild bitch get licked Mature chick pumping cock White babe in nice tits Taylor loves hard fucking Sexy chick in big ass Sweet babe gets horny Topless pretty blonde Babe swallows big cock Naked chick in trio sex Curly haired horny slut Pretty babe get banged Sexy slut goes hardcore Cute babe enjoys fucking Flirty chick cock riding Wild babe sex adventure A hot smiling face woman A hot picture in the sofa A hot woman in the sofa A hottie chick got naked A pink pussy in the sofa A blonde lady in hot sofa A hot lady shows her tits A blonde gal smiling face A hot gal in white blouse A woman showing her tits A horny chick got naked A topless brunette lady

    A blonde lady in hot sofa? What kind of kink is that?

  125. # Iamcuriousblue Says:
    August 30th, 2007 at 7:34 pm

    libidojournal Says:

    “pretty blonde having sex”: 2,520 hits

    I did this test and got 15 hits. Specifically:

    “pretty blonde having sex” -whore: 11 hits
    “pretty blonde having sex” +whore: 8 hits

    (Doesn’t exactly add up to 15, but google tests are weird that way.)

    I think libidojournal googled the words pretty blonde having sex not quoted as a phrase.

    Given the sewer of emotions that most free – and therefore Googleable (is that a word? @.x; ) – porn evokes, “hot blonde having sex” would probably generate more hits than the phrase with “pretty” (or, like in Hector B’s excerpt, a defiling word like “banged” would be used with “pretty”). What free porn is shooting for is a nice tease of an endorphin spike, just enough to make one casual browser out of a few dozen want to click on the for-pay link that’s advertised next to it (which is why free Internet porn is usually of the “here I am, an object for your desires” variety.

    I have a hunch that the marketing mentality supports the patriarchy even more than old-fashioned misogyny, because it appeals to and reinforces least-common-denominator emotions and objectification on a scale that’s just not possible if you have an emotionally vested interest in the process – the same reason bullies and sadists make “bad” torturers.

    Hector B: It’s hard to over-estimate the ability of human beings to get turned on by strange things, since the foundation of arousal is mental associations. Scary! Either that or just mangled sentences. We’d like to think the latter, but it’s probably both.

    Ugh. *slinks off to find positive thoughts and a cup of coffee*

  126. I think that probably the best way to figure out how porn, or even a specify type of porn, affects our lives, at least on a personal level, is to try going without it for an extended period of time and see how your perspective changes.
    I’ve never been much of a porn viewer, but I can attest to the awesome power that images have to color our whole worldview and change our actions, even when they’re things that we’re not really interested in viewing, or trying to ignore. I used to watch a lot of TV, but haven’t for about three years. It took me a while to realize that the way I viewed both myself and others has changed SUBSTANTIALLY as a result, in ways that I’m pleased with, and with no real effort on my part.
    I would imagine that sexually charged images are even more potently affecting.
    From a feminist theory sort of perspective, it seems clear to me that we should be able to judge porn by the same standards that we would judge anything else. The main thesis of the whole feminist movement is that women want to no longer be seen as the other, a segment separated out from everyday life. I think that it’s important that as feminists we understand that sexuality is also not something that we want to put either on an untouchable pedestal or vilify, but be able to see as an integral part of the life of the individual and the larger group. While I wouldn’t go so far as to say that we should ever be criticizing what people do privately, I think that once it becomes porn it enters the public realm and is subject to the same kind of criticism and standards as any other media.
    I don’t want to insult the BDSMers on this board, but I fail to see how things that would in ANY other context be considered indicative of a need for serious therapy (I should add here, that while I’m not into s&m, I am in need of serious therapy and I don’t mean that as an insult), if not prosecution, can be considered acceptable just because it’s in a sexual context. I just can’t bring myself to believe that the moment things are sexual we warp into some alternate universe that has no relation to our daily lives and interactions. Actually, I don’t want to, either.
    While I don’t want to make this comment a several page monologue, I think that it is worthwhile to consider what is causing these behaviors. I personally can see MANY aspects of our social system that contribute to this. Most feminists will readily admit that as women are still first and foremost the sex class, making sex the only legitimate outlet for violent and degrading urges in our society is extremely disturbing. (Yes, I know that all sorts of people have sex with all sorts of other people, but I am not even willing to argue the point that women are the de facto sexual objects in our society.)
    Basically, though, I agree with Carebear and Lisa. Porn is both a symptom and a tool of the patriarchy, they both need to be addressed.
    Sorry, this ended up being much longer than expected.
    P.S.
    Perhaps this is being a little overly picky of me, but it kind of bothers me that a large segment of this this was dominated by some dude saying how degrading porn isn’t really a problem. Maybe not to him, but isn’t that beside the point?

  127. I don’t want to insult the BDSMers on this board, but I fail to see how things that would in ANY other context be considered indicative of a need for serious therapy (I should add here, that while I’m not into s&m, I am in need of serious therapy and I don’t mean that as an insult), if not prosecution, can be considered acceptable just because it’s in a sexual context. I just can’t bring myself to believe that the moment things are sexual we warp into some alternate universe that has no relation to our daily lives and interactions. Actually, I don’t want to, either.

    Someone could say this about plain old het sex. Why would a woman risk having a baby while doing an act that at least 75% of women do not orgasm from with a person who is from the gender that rules over hers? It could be said about anal sex- it’s the only time we are allowed to put stuff into other peoples’ butts. When else is this accepetable? Never. And so on.

    Sexual desire is not really entirely understood. I do BDSM; my partner and I enjoy it. Why is it acceptable? Because we are both adults, and we are doing it in private. In the context of wanting it, spanking is no more violent than oral sex- which, mind you, in certain contexts like rape is a violent act. BDSM may not turn your crank, and that is fine, but if you are going to start judging my sex life, prepare for me to judge yours.

    Most feminists will readily admit that as women are still first and foremost the sex class, making sex the only legitimate outlet for violent and degrading urges in our society is extremely disturbing. (Yes, I know that all sorts of people have sex with all sorts of other people, but I am not even willing to argue the point that women are the de facto sexual objects in our society.)

    I disagree. There are other legit outlets for violence- most contact sports, wrestling with friends on the couch, punching pillows in your room, going for a run, even doing BDSM with a person you aren’t sleeping with. All are perfectly legal to get your violent urges out. The only time violence isn’t accpetable is when there is a victim who did not sign up for this.

  128. How do we say that the degradation is simulated in porn consumed publically? If you are seeing a woman degraded, and you are getting off, how is that simulated?
    And more importantly, how does that make you see women IRL? What societal benefit is there from encouraging the attachtment of one’s sexual response to degradation?

    I see your point. A few others on this discussion have made points that are useful to me; especially that people in the BDSM crowd may perceive and use BDSM porn in a beneficial way, while the same porn in the hands of someone else could lead to warped sexual ideas, such as using someone for your own pleasure regardless of their pleasure.

    I’ve been so focused on getting the messages heard that no sex act is inherently negative, and that dominance is a healthy aspect of sexuality, that it didn’t occur to me that how the porn is perceived is also a big issue.

    And so I now draw a blank and have nothing useful to say. I thought I was porn savy, with my little downloaded collection, but I’ve not been exposed to much of what I’m told is common; the overtly degrading stuff. The one flick I recall as a bit twisted was a homebrew shot of one guy taking turns with three Thai women, who seemed to take no pleasure in his heroic stamina. He didn’t show any concern for their pleasure, and that seemed perverse. Another flic was much more overtly dominant and I could see some would consider it abusive, but it seemed to me the recipient was enjoying it. The second flic is the type of porn I defend – it might be construed as degrading, but isn’t necessarily problematic.

    So for the two types of problematic porn: 1) One of the partners is not enjoying it and is being portrayed as used for enjoyment and of little personal worth, and 2) porn that could be construed that way and further the people watching it to practice demeaning sex, I have no answer.

    If misogynistic porn is so far in the majority, I see making non-misogynistic porn (if such a thing can exist) as an act of rebellion.

    I once researched getting into the porn bus to produce porn I thought was valuable – very intense and real erotica, of all flavors, with both participants totally into it. I thought it would be a public service. Perhaps even educational.

    Oh, and as to why I bothered with my obvious comments about the fact that all humans are objects, it was because in discussion on sex and feminism I’ve often come across the general bias towards seeing gender and beauty and sex as somehow disembodied, or at least of downplaying the embodied aspects of it. Therefore I thought that the reason objectifying women and commercializing sex was seen as problematic is because it overemphasised the physical at the expense of the individuals feelings. This crowd seems more sophisticated, and seems to have other main concerns.

  129. don’t want to insult the BDSMers on this board, but I fail to see how things that would in ANY other context be considered indicative of a need for serious therapy

    I wonder if you have some misconceptions of what constitutes BDSM and how it actually works among the people who do it, especially in light of your own statement about not being into it.)

    JenLovesPonies makes pretty much the same point, but if you think about it, your “any other context” pretty much means “done by people who don’t consent to it, don’t enjoy it, feel demeaned by it, or are harmed by it because they aren’t aware of the potential consequences.”

    I think that ANY human behavior you could describe that way results in the same judgement you made – one I agree with, by the way.

  130. Some point from my own research and experience:

    -Let’s get some better sex education in this country, stop hyper sexualizing every damn person/exchange/relationship we encounter, spend some time and money researching the people of the sex industry as well as those who spend many tedious nights in sexual addiction groups fumbling over their issues with said industry.

    -Absolutely we commodify women. We also reduce men’s perceived ability over sexual control by constantly comparing them to “horny dogs” or something equally diminishing. Both of these are social constructs–*BOTH* of which people buy into and act on as the Capital T Truth of human sexual relations.

    -Pleasure, as well, is too often seen as the end-all-be-all of what goes and what stays. This is simplistic. What kicks our nerves into high gear has as much to do with our upbringing as it does the TV–if we are not going to acknowledge this before plugging our pickles into the hard drive or taking a whip to our rear end then we can expect these circles, these circles, these circles…

    -Do some personal research. Read a book. And do read your opponent’s book. Education removes fear and let’s us find a common place.

    – Be mortified: there are people who have been enslaved, abused, and killed for someone else’s orgasm.

    -Be mindful of your surroundings. This is America, we do certain things very right, and certain things very wrong. We are savvy business people– alias: marketing. Meaning, we know how to construct/create markets, convince people of phantom inadequacies and then reap a huge reward. Not everyone who claims to want to better facilitate our orgasms/make us more sexually attractive is a damn human’s rights activist.

    -On that note we are also a very individualistic society with a high love for power. Add that to a phallocentric patriarchy and of course discussions on sexual matters will be a frickin’ nightmare.

    Porn is not the root of the problem but it is definitely the commentary.

  131. The reason I said that I don’t want to insult BDSMers is that I think that they’re the least of the problem in this, as it’s usually something that’s actively sought out by the women involved. It’s true that I’m not intimately familiar with the whole thing, and I do have a slight scary/turnoff response to it after being invited to some venue called “the Dungeon” at the age of thirteen. As I know that those kind of experiences have seriously negatively affected the way I view sex and my ability to feel relaxed about, I object to the fact that it’s becoming more mainstream in porn, where it will probably reach an audience that is not actively seeking it. However, BDSM is not a problem on the level of the blatant degrading misogyny in mainstream pornography. I don’t think anyone can argue that the most porn consumed is not misogynistic in one way or the other.
    What I object to is the attitude that just because someone gets sexual pleasure from something it’s beyond critique. I don’t care if someone is judging my sex life any more than I care if someone is negatively judging the fact that I eat at McDonald’s occasionally. While I really dig a McFlurry occasionally and I don’t think I’m the world’s greatest sinner because of it, I’m not going to pretend like it’s an ethically sound thing to do. I’m also not going to say that all of my sexual proclivities are psychologically sound just because I have them or act on them.
    I actually think that the person who brought up that the default sexual activity of most Americans is something that most women can’t orgasm from really hit the nail on the head. Why are men and women seeking this kind of sex? Why are men and women seeking out bondage type stuff? I think these are important questions for feminists to ask.
    I really don’t think that the problem that most radical feminists have is that some couple somewhere is doing BDSM, the problem is that our society seems to view dominance and submission, and to some extent degradation, as integral parts of sex. xsplat said so himself (I have no idea what he’s doing on a feminist board).
    So, anyway, I guess that I’m saying that while consensual degrading or dominance oriented sex may be acceptable from a human rights sort of perspective, I think that it’s incompatible with the feminist agenda.
    Also, while sexual desire may be incompletely understood and all that jazz, it is beyond denying that it is hugely affected by the experiences and images that one encounters. Most sexual preferences are based on masturbatory conditioning.

  132. “I’ve been so focused on getting the messages heard that … dominance is a healthy aspect of sexuality”
    I think that this is where we’re going to disagree. I think that while dominance is intrinsically tied in with sex and sexual relationships in our culture, this is undesirable. As far as I know, that’s what feminism is all about.
    Would you ever substitute “relationships” for “sexuality” in that sentence? Because sex is an interactive thing between two people.
    I think that I was wrong to say that sex is considered the only acceptable outlet for violence. I think it would have been better to say neurotically controlling behaviors.

  133. I think that probably the best way to figure out how porn, or even a specify type of porn, affects our lives, at least on a personal level, is to try going without it for an extended period of time and see how your perspective changes.

    For me, doing without it didn’t really mean anything in particular. I gave it up because I worried it was inconsistent with my feminism, and I was in a period where I really cared far less about what was actually good for women than I did about being “pure” and “untainted.” I personally was very depressed at this time. I didn’t come to respect anyone more — I respected myself less.

    Going back to using it meant, FOR ME, exiting a mode of self-hatred and returning to a mode of self-acceptance. That change in mode allowed me to start having more connected sexual experience with real partners, who I previously had been having trouble connecting with because I was so worried about whether my desires were okay.

    But that’s just me.

  134. I don’t want to insult the BDSMers on this board, but I fail to see how things that would in ANY other context be considered indicative of a need for serious therapy (I should add here, that while I’m not into s&m, I am in need of serious therapy and I don’t mean that as an insult), if not prosecution, can be considered acceptable just because it’s in a sexual context. I just can’t bring myself to believe that the moment things are sexual we warp into some alternate universe that has no relation to our daily lives and interactions. Actually, I don’t want to, either.

    You just did.

    And… I think you’re confusing “sexual context” and “consensual context” here. I don’t think, say, that a consensual flogging that wasn’t sexual (say, as a sort of test-of-endurance type ritual) indicates a need for therapy. But the only common situation in which these things are freely consented to is sexual. So people make this odd assumption that “sex = anything goes” where really what’s being said is something more like people have the right to subject their bodies to painful experiences if they want.

  135. I thought I was porn savy, with my little downloaded collection, but I’ve not been exposed to much of what I’m told is common

    You’re not alone there.

  136. What I object to is the attitude that just because someone gets sexual pleasure from something it’s beyond critique. I don’t care if someone is judging my sex life any more than I care if someone is negatively judging the fact that I eat at McDonald’s occasionally. While I really dig a McFlurry occasionally and I don’t think I’m the world’s greatest sinner because of it, I’m not going to pretend like it’s an ethically sound thing to do. I’m also not going to say that all of my sexual proclivities are psychologically sound just because I have them or act on them.

    Fine, but I think it’s a bit rude to pretend that this means other people shouldn’t care. Particularly when people can lose custody of their kids, be arrested in raids on parties and events, etc. Or even when admitting these fantasies to a therapist can result in some very upsetting attempts to change you or convince you that your fantasies are the result of some problem.

    It’s true that theory-laden debates about preference can happen in very safe environments, so it looks like no one is being hurt. But I think it’s very important to remember that for some of us this is about a lot more than “oh look, another person on the internet just quoted the dominance theory again, yawn.”

  137. xsplat Says:

    “Oh, and as to why I bothered with my obvious comments about the fact that all humans are objects, it was because in discussion on sex and feminism I’ve often come across the general bias towards seeing gender and beauty and sex as somehow disembodied, or at least of downplaying the embodied aspects of it. Therefore I thought that the reason objectifying women and commercializing sex was seen as problematic is because it overemphasised the physical at the expense of the individuals feelings. This crowd seems more sophisticated, and seems to have other main concerns.”

    Actually, I think a lot of your first instincts about the “objectification” issue in feminism were correct. The whole concept of sexual objectification in feminism is not a well-developed idea, and critiques of pornography and other media as “objectifying” are often meaningless, or, as you pointed out, simply a reflection of an innate bias against pure physical attraction on the part of some people. (Its often little more than a glorified version of the claim “Its what’s on the INSIDE that counts”.)

    Basically, the concept of sexual objectification cannot be separated from the larger concept of objectification, which is something that all people engage in. Arguably, we could not function as a society without it, since we have to interact with a huge number of strangers on a daily basis, with only knowledge of their social function and no knowledge of their inner life. And this is where everyday sexual objectification comes into play – I’m sure everybody has had the experience of being sexually attracted to someone they saw on the street and have never said a word to. Is it wrong to do this? Sexual moralists would say it is, but I think most folks would cut people more slack.

    Additionally, I don’t think you can make any kind of art or media without, to some degree at least, objectifying the artistic subjects and creating your own narrative and interpretation of those subjects. To to say pornography is “objectifying” is, in itself, as much of a non-statement as saying its “visual” or “written”. Yes? And?

    Hence, its simply not enough to say that something is “objectifying” and think that serves a damning critique in and of itself. What needs to be demonstrated is that pornography is somehow wrongfully objectifying in a way that other media or basic human-level sexual attraction isn’t. And, to my mind, anti-porn ideology hasn’t demonstrated this at all.

    In fact, it seems to rely an awful lot on stereotypes about John Q. Pornfan that are, in themselves, wrongfully objectifying. How do they know what a typical porn viewer thinks of the porn models he’s watching? Ever talk to men about this? Consulted research on the subject? Or are they just projecting their own insecurities about “typical males” onto porn viewers?

    I can only speak for myself – when I’m viewing porn, I’m very much objectifying the people in it. I’m being turned on by their bodies and sexual acts they’re doing and not thinking a whole hell of a lot about other aspects of their life. BUT, that does not mean I cease to realize that the model I’m being turned on by is a full human being, with their own life and thoughts outside of what they do in porn. That seems self-evident to me.

    You also make some interesting statements here:

    “I’ve been so focused on getting the messages heard that no sex act is inherently negative, and that dominance is a healthy aspect of sexuality, that it didn’t occur to me that how the porn is perceived is also a big issue.”

    “I once researched getting into the porn bus to produce porn I thought was valuable – very intense and real erotica, of all flavors, with both participants totally into it. I thought it would be a public service. Perhaps even educational.”

    I’m not sure what kind of porn, erotica, or other sexual self-expression you have plans on doing, but I’d urge you (as I’d urge anybody) to treat your own sexual subjectivity and self-expression as the valuable thing that it is, and not get too hung up on threatening specters of “how it will be perceived”. If sexual expression is misperceived, that’s an argument for more education, not for shutting up or shutting down.

  138. our society seems to view dominance and submission, and to some extent degradation, as integral parts of sex. xsplat said so himself (I have no idea what he’s doing on a feminist board).

    I said that it is a healthy aspect of sex. I also have many reasons to believe dominance in sex play is inherent to the human condition, in that most people are predisposed to respond to it, if it is done respectfully and with careful attention to following up on cues to continue.

    But of course I don’t feel that good all sex has to include dominance play.

  139. -Let’s get some better sex education in this country, stop hyper sexualizing every damn person/exchange/relationship we encounter, spend some time and money researching the people of the sex industry as well as those who spend many tedious nights in sexual addiction groups fumbling over their issues with said industry.

    -Absolutely we commodify women. We also reduce men’s perceived ability over sexual control by constantly comparing them to “horny dogs” or something equally diminishing. Both of these are social constructs–*BOTH* of which people buy into and act on as the Capital T Truth of human sexual relations.

    I imagine it must be difficult to empathise with people with extremely high sex drives. I suppose it would be easy for an average or below average sex drive to pathologize a person with a very high libido. There are some people from an early age and throughout their live have extremely high sex drives. They are horn dogs, and there is certainly nothing wrong with that, and nothing in that requiring therapy. Not everything has 100% social causes.

  140. I think that this is where we’re going to disagree. I think that while dominance is intrinsically tied in with sex and sexual relationships in our culture, this is undesirable. As far as I know, that’s what feminism is all about.
    Would you ever substitute “relationships” for “sexuality” in that sentence? Because sex is an interactive thing between two people.
    I think that I was wrong to say that sex is considered the only acceptable outlet for violence. I think it would have been better to say neurotically controlling behaviors.

    Dominance is a very tricky, very charged concept. Dominance in sex-play is very different than dominating a relationship, because it is play, and ends when play time is over. It is an offering only given if wanted. It’s just play. It looks like dominance, but has entirely different connotations than oppressive control over another.

  141. Also, while sexual desire may be incompletely understood and all that jazz, it is beyond denying that it is hugely affected by the experiences and images that one encounters. Most sexual preferences are based on masturbatory conditioning.

    We learned how to read and write in school, and our writing style will be influenced from what see. But I don’t think we can attribute anyones writing style wholely to their teachers and the books they read; each writer creates her unique style through decisions about what they like and what they want to be and how they want to convey theirself. My sexuality has been far more influence by the intimacy with my lovers and through meditation practices than any other environmental input. Sex is, after all, a mutual act – you can’t learn it or develop it through masturbation alone – and most of us choose to develop our sexuality endlessly as we age.

  142. I said that it is a healthy aspect of sex. I also have many reasons to believe dominance in sex play is inherent to the human condition, in that most people are predisposed to respond to it, if it is done respectfully and with careful attention to following up on cues to continue.

    I’d sincerely love to know what evidence you think you have that most people are predisposed to respond to sexual dominance. Until you remove all, or most, of the patriarchal cues that support dominance and submission in relationships from society I fail to see how this is a testable hypothesis.

  143. You just did.

    I practice BDSM on occasion. I actually have a few years experience as a sub. I personally did not find charmeleon’s statements insulting. I believe the statements in that comment were quite reasonable and sound. As frustrating as it might be to those of us who engage in d/s play to have to consider how our behavior impacts the greater society it is a consideration that must be had.

  144. OF COURSE most people respond to dominance in sex, because most people are living in oppressive, patriarchal societies where sexual relationships traditionally have everything to do with status and power.
    While I’m not saying that anything should be outlawed, I think that it’s worth noting that this kind of behavior is only common in regard to sexual relationships, or at least not generally condoned except in them, regardless of whether it’s consensual or not. I’m pretty sure that if two people were participating in some sort of flogging for toughening purposes or any reason, their acquaintances would at the very least express concern.
    I’m actually kind of annoyed that on a feminist blog, it’s impossible to bring up the societal causes and effects of violence, degradation, and dominance in porn and sex and try to discuss it without having some male porn and BDSM advocate talk about how dominance is the natural state of affairs (yes, I know, only for most people, not all). I would appreciate it if people were at least coming from some sort of feminist perspective on here, because I would really like to have a genuine discussion with feminists about this.
    Oh, and yes, degradation can sometimes be a matter of personal interpretation (though usually this applies in a situation of cultural difference), but come on, there are some things that are just plain old degrading, any way you look at it, and I’m pretty sure we’ve all seen at least a few of these in porn. Clearly that’s what Faith was trying to point out with her example.
    I guess Lisa was right and this is impossible. I was expecting this to be more a debate over no porn vs. female-friendly porn, but apparently we can’t even rule out “pretend” misogyny from porn in a feminist group, because it’s just those insane females thinking they see hate when really it’s just good old dominance play. goodness gracious.

  145. Someone said something about making your own porn if you want it.

    I kind of like this idea. I dated this guy a few years ago who had been raped as a child and as a result did NOT want to watch porn (and was essentially unable to) when he was a young teenager, so he made his own book of writings and illustrations. I’m sure this was an excellent outlet for all of the same energy, without the cons of porn.

    Also, this is a little TMI, but that made me so much more attracted to him.

  146. I’m actually kind of annoyed that on a feminist blog, it’s impossible to bring up the societal causes and effects of violence, degradation, and dominance in porn and sex and try to discuss it without having some male porn and BDSM advocate talk about how dominance is the natural state of affairs (yes, I know, only for most people, not all). I would appreciate it if people were at least coming from some sort of feminist perspective on here

    Why are you assuming people’s perspective isn’t feminist? The feminists who believe that consensual sexual dominance and social dominance are the same thing or have the same root do not represent all feminists.

    Personally I don’t see any reason why one is not a feminist if one thinks that the term “dominance” can mean two very different things in different contexts. If we’re all talking about things we’d like in feminist space, well, I’d like people not to decide who is and who isn’t a feminist based on whether they think a word has two different meanings.

  147. As frustrating as it might be to those of us who engage in d/s play to have to consider how our behavior impacts the greater society it is a consideration that must be had.

    Faith,

    I don’t agree with you. I think that a lot of this advice to particular people to examine their personal preferences isn’t productive. We’ve been examining and debating what examination “means” or “says” since the 1980’s, yet we’ve not come to any conclusions.

    And the big thing is, what does deciding that there’s no predisposition to this stuff outside of social construction actually DO for us? It doesn’t change what anyone wants or even what anyone does, unless this “examining” is also paired with advice on how to behave.

    And the thing is, even if it is paired with such advice, what does THAT do? It doesn’t liberate women for a couple of people who have sexual fantasies about domination and submission to not act them out.

    So what purpose does “examination” serve? And why should we examine what the fantasies mean, but at the same time not examine what “dominance” and “submission” mean and whether context affects that too?

  148. I think that it’s worth noting that this kind of behavior is only common in regard to sexual relationships, or at least not generally condoned except in them, regardless of whether it’s consensual or not.

    I don’t know if I necessarily agree. I am not by any means saying that I think “dominance is a natural state of affairs” but I do think in life, there are leaders and there are followers, and within many cliques you will see this type of behavior. Hell, watch Mean Girls– the most popular girl in school was basically in a D/s relationship with her entire school.

    I’m pretty sure that if two people were participating in some sort of flogging for toughening purposes or any reason, their acquaintances would at the very least express concern.

    I don’t know what toughening purposes are, here, but here’s the thing- my sex life is private, and the only friends I would tell would be friends in a community devoted to this sort of thing. And here’s the other thing, as you said before, sometimes you eat at McDonalds, and my guess is that no one does an intervention on you or judges you (unless you happen to be fat, but that is a whole other can of worms.) I think we can make an argument that supporting a terrible for the body, enviroment, and community company is worse than a little flogging, but rarely is your action judged to be terrible for the cause of feminism (though it is).

    I’m actually kind of annoyed that on a feminist blog, it’s impossible to bring up the societal causes and effects of violence, degradation, and dominance in porn and sex and try to discuss it without having some male porn and BDSM advocate talk about how dominance is the natural state of affairs (yes, I know, only for most people, not all).

    I don’t think I said that. I do agree that porn colors a person’s world view to a certain extent. I don’t necessarily agree that what I do in my bedroom is going to affect you in any way, or the world, even. That does not mean I do not think my sexual desire and worldview isn’t in part because of the society I live in and the images I see, but then, most of my sexual desires have existed in some form when I was too young to be watching porn or having sex. I do think that nature is a huge part of our sexuality as well, and I don’t think everything about our sexuality can be blamed on reading Cosmo or watching porn.

    And I disagree entirely that dominance is the natural state of affairs, though as I said, I don’t think the desire to dominate is seen only in the bedroom- its also seen in the boardroom, the sports field, basically anywhere the competitive spirit is.

    I would appreciate it if people were at least coming from some sort of feminist perspective on here, because I would really like to have a genuine discussion with feminists about this.

    Ding ding ding, here I am, an actual feminist. I have actual feminist perspectives and all.

    I personally did not find charmeleon’s statements insulting. I believe the statements in that comment were quite reasonable and sound. As frustrating as it might be to those of us who engage in d/s play to have to consider how our behavior impacts the greater society it is a consideration that must be had.

    But this is true about anything we do, really, from going to McDonalds to having children to voting or not voting to driving or walking to the store… I am not sure why bedroom actions are somehow worse or have a greater impact than anything else we do.

    Sex is, after all, a mutual act – you can’t learn it or develop it through masturbation alone – and most of us choose to develop our sexuality endlessly as we age.

    Sex is both, I think. I think many aspects of my sexuality were in place before I ever masturbated, and way in place before I had any serious sexual encounter. I agree it developes with age, but I don’t think we can rule out solo experiences.

  149. I don’t know if I necessarily agree. I am not by any means saying that I think “dominance is a natural state of affairs” but I do think in life, there are leaders and there are followers, and within many cliques you will see this type of behavior. Hell, watch Mean Girls- the most popular girl in school was basically in a D/s relationship with her entire school.

    Yes. And the thing that gets me is… well, very often there’s this feminist perspective that among humans, all of that’s unnatural and we only form any kind of social hierarchy because we’re patriarchy-sick.

    And I just don’t buy that when so many social animals have hierarchies of some sort.

    I DO buy that how we value hierarchy and which hierarchies seem “natural” to us is affected by patriarchy. And that that’s important. But I don’t actually buy for a second that humans are innately 100% egalitarian and then suddenly this perverse power-need took hold of some of us and now we have this unnatural penchant for power relations. That just makes no SENSE to me.

    I mean, just about every group of feminists I’ve ever been in has had its leaders. If feminism really were this decompression chamber whereby we give up this false poisonous feeling that we belong in hierarchies — why would that happen? Wouldn’t it happen less often?

    I don’t know what toughening purposes are, here, but here’s the thing- my sex life is private, and the only friends I would tell would be friends in a community devoted to this sort of thing.

    I said it. I gave the hypothetical of a nonsexual flogging to try and tease out whether she really felt that BDSM people need therapy because we’re deciding that “sex is a different realm” wherein beatings are OK, or whether she felt that we need therapy because the things we do are self-abuse. It sounds like she’s actually asserting the latter from her answer to that.

    most of my sexual desires have existed in some form when I was too young to be watching porn or having sex.

    Yes. Same here. I didn’t start watching porn until I was maybe 22. By then I’d absolutely had the gamut of hardcore BDSM fantasies already.

    I think there’s an assumption of porn “shaping” fantasy based on the idea that many boys find it very young. And I can see that to an extent, yeah, but then it doesn’t explain someone like me, who had very intense and violent sexual fantasies long before she ever saw porn. And when I finally did, the first things I saw were stuff like Vivid. I fail to see how that, which was totally vanilla compared to the things I was both fantasizing about and doing beforehand, would “make” me more prone to eroticizing dominance.

    (and when we say “dominance” are we assuming here that all men are dominant and all women submissive? I was never submissive. I had fantasies of taking home and “keeping” other people from young childhood. This is not something adolescent exposure to antifeminist messages taught me. Maybe something else did, but… not that. No way.)

    But this is true about anything we do, really, from going to McDonalds to having children to voting or not voting to driving or walking to the store… I am not sure why bedroom actions are somehow worse or have a greater impact than anything else we do.

    YES.

  150. I don’t agree with you. I think that a lot of this advice to particular people to examine their personal preferences isn’t productive. We’ve been examining and debating what examination “means” or “says” since the 1980’s, yet we’ve not come to any conclusions.

    okey dokey. we’ll have to agree to disagree then. if you’ve already examined and come to your own conclusions, great. many of us, however, aren’t ready to draw those same conclusions.

    So what purpose does “examination” serve? And why should we examine what the fantasies mean, but at the same time not examine what “dominance” and “submission” mean and whether context affects that too?

    I believe the “examination” can have several different purposes. For me personally, examining them helps me as an individual in trying to determine my own sexuality and how I’d like to express it. Examining it can also help others make that determination and try to determine how much we should or should not embrace certain sexual activities. I also thought we -were- basically exploring what dominance and submission means, at least in a sexual context. I’m not sure it would be o.k. to discuss what it means in general since this is, afterall, supposed to be a discussion about porn and such. Even though we aren’t discussing porn exactly we are discussing common elements in porn so I think it’s still basically on topic.

  151. But this is true about anything we do, really, from going to McDonalds to having children to voting or not voting to driving or walking to the store… I am not sure why bedroom actions are somehow worse or have a greater impact than anything else we do.

    Well, eating at mcdonald’s is destructive, not only to the person eating the food but also to the environment due to MdDonald’s insane factory farming practices. It could also be argued to be destructive to the animals being killed and there are people who do view McDonald’s as basically evil. But sexuality is a bit different than eating at McDonald’s and voting. Sexuality is a major life force. It is both very powerful and used irresponsibly can be very destructive. Sex is also physically speaking one of the most intimate acts. So yea, while I don’t care much at all for McDonald’s, I’m far more worried about trying to determine what is or is not a healthy expression of sexuality, and whether or not it can be healthy in certain contexts but unhealthy in others.

  152. okey dokey. we’ll have to agree to disagree then. if you’ve already examined and come to your own conclusions, great.

    The thing is, though, that “examination” gets brought up so often that I’m not always sure people really are fine with other people’s conclusions. People will tell people who have been active in both feminsit circles and BDSM circles that they need to “examine”, as if it’s inconceivable that they already have. And that worries me.

    I do think it may be worthwhile to mention “examination” to someone who is totally new to feminism or BDSM or both. (Personally I think there’s a lot that’s far more important that directly impacts people’s lives so it’s not high on my list even then, but I can see why it would be worth mentioning.) But I often see very little effort on the part of the people who recommend examination to determine whether people already have done so or not.

    And I think that’s part of where the bitterness comes in and the feeling that the people who recommend “examining” are being patronizing. Because it’s just put out there as this thing people are supposed to do. And they’re often assumed to have never done it, or simply to have not done enough of it. The impression that often gives — right or wrong — is that the people recommending “examination” only stop recommending it when people agree with them.

  153. I imagine it must be difficult to empathise with people with extremely high sex drives. I suppose it would be easy for an average or below average sex drive to pathologize a person with a very high libido. There are some people from an early age and throughout their live have extremely high sex drives. They are horn dogs, and there is certainly nothing wrong with that, and nothing in that requiring therapy. Not everything has 100% social causes.

    *raises hand*

    Yep, that has happened to me far more times than I can count at this point.

    And it’s the most upsetting/disappointing when the judging and pathologizing comes from other feminists, even including other feminists who identify as sex-positive.

    E.g., just a few days ago I was involved in a “debate” about ass-to-mouth where some people just couldn’t accept “Some people like it; some people don’t.” What’s so hard about that? Instead, they had to stick a label on everything and look for some underlying negative, nefarious cause.

  154. Additionally, I don’t think you can make any kind of art or media without, to some degree at least, objectifying the artistic subjects and creating your own narrative and interpretation of those subjects. To to say pornography is “objectifying” is, in itself, as much of a non-statement as saying its “visual” or “written”. Yes? And?

    .. . BUT, that does not mean I cease to realize that the model I’m being turned on by is a full human being, with their own life and thoughts outside of what they do in porn. That seems self-evident to me.

    You groked what I was trying to say and re-wrote the underlying idea far more eloquently than I could.

    I think a person must be of an uncommonly low denominator not to innately realize that all people with bodies have an internal self that is worth empathising with. I’d think if one didn’t automatically assume this, one would have serious cognitive deficits that could be labelled as a personality disorder. And yet, some people who tend to get very in their head about social relationships assume that the world is one big social construct, and that noticing anything physical is a sin against the purity and primacy of good thought. As you said, a glorfied version of “it’s what’s on the inside that really counts”.

    I’d sincerely love to know what evidence you think you have that most people are predisposed to respond to sexual dominance. Until you remove all, or most, of the patriarchal cues that support dominance and submission in relationships from society I fail to see how this is a testable hypothesis.

    Firstly, people are animals, and all animals show patterns of social organization, and patterns of sexual activity. Lions have a social hierarchy of a tribe dominated by a female, I think. When they have sex there is a lot of biting and growling. If you saw badgers go at it you might think to report rape to the badger police.

    Here is a quote from some some smart folks on this subject:

    RU: If you acknowledge that every other living animal group has certain inherent forms of social organization, it’s fundamentally absurd to say, “Well no, human beings don’t.” And certain people on the left remind me of fundamentalist Christians. It’s kind of a denial of evolution. They’re not denying Darwin, but they’re denying something that is a logical extension of Darwin.

    JQ: Right. And the sort-of social science academics on the left are the only ones who have a problem with this stuff. When I speak in front of most women, they’re trying to understand their husband and they’re all over it. They want to understand why does he do the things he does; why does he communicate the way he does? People on the street assume that there’s something fundamentally different about men and women.

    RU: What happens with people in the process of a sex change — like a guy who’s taking a lot of estrogen and that sort of thing? Have you looked into that?

    JQ: Sure, I’m fascinated with that stuff. If a woman gets a sex change operation, and she starts taking injections of testosterone, different genes that are suppressed are turned on in her, and she finds herself feeling more aggressive; she finds it harder to cry; she finds it easier to get angry; and she can’t get sex out of her mind. I talked to one woman who was in the midst of this process, and she said, “God, I suddenly understand how guys feel. ”

    Again, not everything has a social basis. You can’t extricate out the social elements, but that doesn’t mean they are primary.

  155. Yep, that has happened to me far more times than I can count at this point.

    Yeah, I think a lot of both pathologizing people with high sex drives and pathologizing people with low sex drives happens in these endless debates.

    For me a lot of the frustration I have with “examining” is that my libido is naturally (and I have no qualms about asserting “naturally”) high. Sex and sexual touching and sexual play calm me down and make me feel good when not much else can.

    So to have someone ask me if I know what I’m doing is positive or if it has some nefarious meaning that my partner and I are leagues away from thinking about… well, it’s not really a theoretical question about something I find a bit fun. It’s “there might be something wrong with one of your primary coping devices. But I can’t tell you exactly what or how to fix it; all I have is this nebulous and impersonal theory about sexuality and dominance.”

    Trying to swear off BDSM, rough sex, porn, “antifeminist” fantasies, etc… well asking me to do that is not like asking me to buy fair trade coffee when I want a little snack. It’s telling me one of my main pleasures in life, one that’s deeply tied to my identity, IS A PROBLEM.

    And well… perhaps that’s the truth and it really is best in the long run for women, or for me, to experience that profound uprootedness for the good of feminism.

    But I tried. I swore off a lot of it and lost interest in the rest. Abd for me all that got me was severe dissociation and derealization that left me barely able to function. And after a while I just wondered “why am I assuming this came from patriarchy when doing without it is so CLEARLY negative for me personally?”

    Again, I might have just been weak or frivolous. Coming to different conclusions and living in line with them may be worth it for the greater good… but I have a hard time seeing how. What I do and what I want doesn’t change the patriarchy.

    And I’m not convinced, honestly, that “greater good” type thinking is healthy for anyone, or actually gets anything real done.

  156. Here is a quote from some some smart folks on this subject

    I’m not a big fan of sociobiologists. Or of the whole biology making a huge difference when humans have a degree of control over procreation that’s unheard of in the animal world.

    But I do think the assumption that humans don’t form hierarchies in part due to nature… is a weird leftist belief I can’t wrap my brain around.

  157. Ok, I feel like I have fallen down on the moderation job, as we’ve strayed quite far into “people’s personal habits and what they mean and whether they’re defensible from a feminist POV” territory. If anyone wants to continue debating that point, please feel free to do it elsewhere.

    The parallels between eating at McDonald’s—i.e., supporting an environmentally disastrous industry that both depends on and promotes labor and animal abuse, a far-below-living-wage pay scale, and a food system that keeps fresh healthy food out of low-income communities—and participating in the porn industry are many (see Carol Adams).

    But the examination we have to do it not inside our own heads here; it’s out there in the world.

    I realize this is a little bit kindergarten teacher of me (referring only to how it makes me feel, not to anyone needing to be treated like a 5-year-old), but I’d like to recap some of the concrete strategies that have come up so far.

    -Make your own porn for personal use and/or small-scale distribution to people you know get the context of the acts.

    -Seek out porn you can verify was produced ethically.

    -Raise consciousness among John Q Pornfan about casual, byproduct-eque misogyny and point him toward less misogynistic porn (I’d particulatrly welcome suggestions about how we might realistically go about this).

    -Support the labor organizing and workplace-improvement efforts that folks in the industry are doing.

    I’m sure I’m missing things. More?

  158. -Raise consciousness among John Q Pornfan about casual, byproduct-eque misogyny and point him toward less misogynistic porn (I’d particulatrly welcome suggestions about how we might realistically go about this).

    My first suggestion would be just to show him some. I find people react really positively when they see that people in much of the small independent stuff (and not, say, the “making alt corporate” stuff like Suicide Girls) look happier, look less tired, seem less like they are totally faking any enjoyment of anything, etc.

  159. Lisa Says:

    “The parallels between eating at McDonald’s—i.e., supporting an environmentally disastrous industry that both depends on and promotes labor and animal abuse, a far-below-living-wage pay scale, and a food system that keeps fresh healthy food out of low-income communities—and participating in the porn industry are many (see Carol Adams).”

    Carol Adams (rolls eyes). All I have to say is that if you think an utterly simplistic anti-porn feminist critique joined to an utterly simplistic animal rights perspective by superficial parallels amounts to a coherent critique, you’re welcome to it.

    What concerns me more, however, is the parallel you draw between the porn industry and industries that literally cause environmental pollution. Are you in fact saying that some kinds of expression are a kind of ideological pollution? I’ll note that this is exactly the same language the Chinese government uses to justify its strict censorship of the internet. I don’t think it follows that if one supports curbs on dissemination of environmental pollutants that one should support censorship of ideas one considers harmful, and I think this is pretty much where that analogy takes you.

    “I realize this is a little bit kindergarten teacher of me (referring only to how it makes me feel, not to anyone needing to be treated like a 5-year-old), but I’d like to recap some of the concrete strategies that have come up so far.

    -Make your own porn for personal use and/or small-scale distribution to people you know get the context of the acts.”

    I don’t think self-made porn is ever going to replace the porn industry. People watch porn to see people other than themselves, generally speaking.

    And the only good reason I can see for keeping such porn within a small circle of friends is if one is concerned about privacy, don’t want the whole world to see you, etc. If one is willing to do porn as a form of self-expression and don’t mind strangers seeing it, I really don’t think fear of it being seen by an audience that isn’t sufficiently ideological pure is absolutely silly. Its also a recipe for ghettoizing positive sexual self-expression and making sure the larger porn world doesn’t change at all.

    Seek out porn you can verify was produced ethically.

    On one level, good idea, however, does that mean that one should assume that porn is guilty until proven innocent – that it involves exploitation unless its proven otherwise? I personally don’t think so, but that’s up to your own ethical compass, I guess. I’d also have to ask if you hold the clothing and vegetables you buy to the same standard. (There’s exploitation in those industries, too.)

    I am definitely for naming and shaming companies and individuals who are involved in abusing their workers. Joe Francis is somebody who comes to mind immediately. I’ve heard of efforts to get to uninvite Girls Gone Wild from various venues and protesting places where they are filming. (I’m all for this, personally. I’ll also note that at least a few of these actions have been organized not by the usual APRF suspects, but by feminists who identify as sex-positive.)

    Bang Bus is another that’s deserving of some really bad publicity at the very least, if not a few lawsuits.

    Raise consciousness among John Q Pornfan about casual, byproduct-eque misogyny and point him toward less misogynistic porn (I’d particulatrly welcome suggestions about how we might realistically go about this).

    Well, considering you can’t even get a group of feminists to agree on what constitutes misogynistic sex (hence, the whole “people’s personal habits and what they mean and whether they’re defensible from a feminist POV” debate), good luck finding any agreement among a group of people who in all likelihood don’t even give a fuck about what the feminist line on pornography is.

    Support the labor organizing and workplace-improvement efforts that folks in the industry are doing.

    DingDingDingDing!

    This has problems for all the reasons Audacia gave in #9, however, this perspective is vital. Quite simply, trying to sort out the ethical issues of the porn industry without the input (and, preferably, leadership) of porn industry workers is nothing less than paternalism, plain and simple.

  160. What I despise about porn is the same thing that I despise in video games, and I love them both. It’s that it’s always made for men, often at the expense of women. I can’t feel comfortable when the only male figure of any interest walking around at PAX is Master Chief, whereas there is a thin boothbunny in a tri corn cap and daisy dukes in the next booth over, a mannequin with elf ears, pink wig, and a metal bra that doesn’t even connect in the font, and posters for the alluring protagonist of the new game Heavenly Sword… all placing women’s bodies on offer and making it clear that this is for the boys. The men represent men’s ideals and fantasies, and the women do, too.

    It’s not fair, and it bothers me. It’s like saying that I can either like this as it is or get the hell out because I don’t represent a meaningful demographic. It wouldn’t bother me so much if the only games targeted at women weren’t all like Ubisoft’s offensively stereotyped Imagine series. I like big guns and slicing stuff up as much as my boyfriend and looking awesome doing it, but all those games are obviously not meant for me.

    Same with porn. That’s why I draw my own. Too bad I can’t make my own games.

  161. I think a person must be of an uncommonly low denominator not to innately realize that all people with bodies have an internal self that is worth empathising with. I’d think if one didn’t automatically assume this, one would have serious cognitive deficits that could be labelled as a personality disorder.

    I find it really surprising that someone who’s arguing on the one hand for the inevitability of hierarchies in human social relationships would assume, on the other hand, that this kind of thinking is so rare among people.

    Thinking that other people don’t have the same internal worth is essential for humans to justify hierarchies. That’s how we can let ourselves, as beings whose minds are capable of considering the implications of our actions in a way other animals’ aren’t, exercise dominance over other humans as if they were weaker animals, rather than treat them as equals.

    A lot of people looking at many kinds of porn are not thinking that the people they’re looking at have any kind of internal worth, or even a separate existence outside of being enjoyed by the porn consumer. The porn’s set up to indulge the consumer’s fantasy of having that kind of dominance over the people in the porn–the power to objectify them totally, to reduce them to mere objects for the consumer’s pleasure.

    Certainly, some porn is designed to indulge other fantasies, and some consumers even of porn that more overtly objectifies the people performing it (or, for textual porn, the fictional people who are characters in it) enjoy the porn for reasons other than the power fantasy involved in objectification. But if seems disingenuous to claim that only rare, disordered people would consume porn without thinking about the people involved in it as full, equal human beings.

  162. Support the labor organizing and workplace-improvement efforts that folks in the industry are doing

    In the era of world globalization and dwindling union power this will help what percentage of women? 2%? 10% tops?

    It does nothing for the vast majority. But I guess it makes the porn consuming public feel altruistic as they use trafficked women’s bodies to get off. “Oh, it’s okay, I support UNIONS!”

    And unionization does nothing for women (and men) outside the industry, those hurt by its multiple, pernicious effects.

    But that’s another debate. . .

  163. JenLovesPonies:

    I agree with the reality of pretty much all of the situations you illustrated. I acknowledge that to many of those situations, porn movies maybe an answer, but it rarely seems to only one to me.

    some people have a difficult time fantasizing. Many of us grew up believing sex to be dirty and wrong, or were told as adults that our fantasies or fetishes made us terrible people. This can make fantasizing on our own difficult.

    This is probably what blindsided me. My train of thought was, if somebody grows up in an environment disapproving of porn or a given fetish / preference / orientation in particular or teenagers’ sexuality per se, they’d fantasise more because images in the mind are safer than images on video. But I guess it’s not the same thing, one is actually believing that sexuality is bad, and the other is believing getting caught is bad?

    What I don’t get is how if someone ends up believing all sexuality (incl. watching porn, presumably) is bad, and they have the option of fixing their problems fantasizing and being their own woman, or being a consumer and to boot one of material we can’t seem to conclusively prove is not rather problematic for society in general and women in particular, they end up picking the latter. It seems like making a personal issue everybody’s problem. (It also mystifies me btw how people spend time and money on porn rather than on becoming someone real people will actually want to have sex with, but that may be just me, thinking that self-betterment would benefit both the person in question and society on the whole. I’m also confused because a lot of the problems you’ve shown have non-porny solutions (Partner doesn’t like particular fantasy? Well, don’t do it with that partner etc. In this example, if you don’t wanna go poly, that’s fine, but then own that choice.) As for the ones that don’t? Like the not-so-smart guys you mentioned? Assuming it’s not just some Nice Guy act going where they’re simply pouty they can’t date someone way out of their league? Well, sucks to be them, but to somehow assume that because a few guys not only can’t get laid, but can’t even masturbate on their own, all women should take one for the team of mankind seems to be the exact “entitlement to women’s bodies” that we’re all supposedly fighting?)

    But that’s another discussion, and quite possibly one neither of us wants to have right now. So, thanks so far, I learned something about where the issue comes from.

  164. Well thanks for putting it back into the moderation pile.

    I don’t understand moderation. I didn’t swear or scold in that post, yet it went POOF.

    The comments I think will get moderated seem to go through . . .weird.

  165. I admit that my “real feminists” comment was a bit much. The only person I was referring to there is xsplat, whose revolving degrading/not degrading/pretend degrading thing, along with the whole subject/object thing was just making my mind bounce like a pinball. And then the lions???! There are plenty of other human subjects available in other cultures of you’re looking for a comparison.
    It seems that my concept of what feminism entails is rather narrow and I should probably look at that. Nonetheless, I can’t help but feel that there must be some kind of fundamental ideological differences between me and someone saying the following:
    “And I’m not convinced, honestly, that “greater good” type thinking is healthy for anyone, or actually gets anything real done.”
    This is the first time I’ve ever tried to get involved in any kind of thread on porn (or anything sex related) and now I see why it’s avoided.
    The way that people will disregard basically all of the real life outcomes of porn in order to devalidate any argument that might cast anything to do with sex in a negative light or even call it into question is just incredible. I mean, seriously, if the McD’s to porn industry comparison is a stretch (which I don’t think it is entirely, as both are by and large exploitative to their workers and produce products that people will buy in droves regardless of general consensus on their low quality), then how can you possibly say that a few of us saying that the content of some porn or the process of producing it has features that might want to seriously consider avoiding is indicative of a China-esque fascist censorship plot? I guess that the answer is that yes, I do believe in a siort of “ideological pollution,” metaphorically speaking, because I’ve experienced the affects harmful messages in my own life, who hasn’t? and no I’m not opposed to free speech but I believe in informed consumption, if possible.
    I don’t think that anyone here has suggested censorship, just responsible consumerism and possibly an analysis of sex politics in our society as it relates to feminism.
    That said, I am glad that I got to hear from people who feel that their S&M tendencies are biologically rooted. It’s something to consider.
    Also, thank you to CK for pointing out “disingenous.” I floundered for several paragraphs trying to say the same thing but not doing it so well.
    Anyway, clearly this is done. Thanks Lisa for this forum. I think you summed up the salient points well. I apologize for running the thread in a slightly off-topic direction. That wasn’t my intention, I’m just not practiced with this topic.
    Last thing – I totally agree with everything pisquari said.

  166. Thinking that other people don’t have the same internal worth is essential for humans to justify hierarchies. That’s how we can let ourselves, as beings whose minds are capable of considering the implications of our actions in a way other animals’ aren’t, exercise dominance over other humans as if they were weaker animals, rather than treat them as equals.

    Not to speak for the other commenter (and I hope this isn’t too derailing of the actual topic, which was how we do activism IN THE WORLD), but I don’t think that’s what the word “hierarchy” or “dominance” means. I do think a lot of hierarchies are based on negative judgments of others’ worth, but I don’t think they all are.

    I took tae kwon do for several years. The ranking system by belt level is quite rigid. What you get to do, how you address others, when you can speak during class, etc. There is clearly a hierarchy there.

    But that hierarchy doesn’t seem to me to in any way be based on the worth of the people in the school. Any person can achieve any belt level given sufficient time and effort. The privileges granted to the people at higher belt levels are granted as a reward for years of work and commitment to the school. They are a measure of the school’s respect for what you’ve done.

    This is why the notion that any hierarchy involves corruption and disrespect makes very little sense to me.

    As far as how to, in the real world, reduce the bad form of hierarchy and increase the good, I’d suggest encouraging people to base their hierarchies on things like expertise and skill, rather than on arbitrary factors.

    I’d also strongly encourage people to encourage those who do have power to see that power they have as a sacred trust that’s not about them, but about using what they’ve got for other people and society as a whole.

    Which doesn’t have to do with porn, no, but at least gets us back to the “what should we do” question.

  167. And the only good reason I can see for keeping such porn within a small circle of friends is if one is concerned about privacy, don’t want the whole world to see you, etc. If one is willing to do porn as a form of self-expression and don’t mind strangers seeing it, I really don’t think fear of it being seen by an audience that isn’t sufficiently ideological pure is absolutely silly. Its also a recipe for ghettoizing positive sexual self-expression and making sure the larger porn world doesn’t change at all.

    Yes. And in the world of the Internet, I think that it’s naive to assume those images will only ever be seen by people who will interpret them in the way you hope. You may be able to control this somewhat if you’re giving stuff to a quite narrow circle of buddies, but even then, what if one of their partners or friends sees it and decides to further distribute it, whether out of malice or out of not understanding your prohibition or not agreeing with it?

  168. What I despise about porn is the same thing that I despise in video games, and I love them both. It’s that it’s always made for men, often at the expense of women.

    YES.

    And I honestly doubt this will ever change until women become a larger subset of the consumer base.

    Which is not to say I think any woman who has ethical issues with porn should go buy some. It’s just to say that boycotts of porn and telling women how awful it is and to avoid it accomplishes exactly nothing, if what we want is for less sexist media to be more readily available.

    It sucks, but that’s capitalism. I’ve never yet seen any scheme for overthrowing the capitalistic system that I think will work, any more than I’ve seen any scheme for overthrowing the porn industry that will.

  169. What I despise about porn is the same thing that I despise in video games, and I love them both. It’s that it’s always made for men, often at the expense of women.

    I used to sell a line of t-shirts at craft and music festivals. A petite woman took pains to explain to me how irate she was that I didn’t carry a size small. I only carried medium, large, and extra large. Sometimes I only had large and XL in stock. I would sell the small sizes too infrequently for them to be worth producing – and I was in business for profit, not as a social service.

    I understand her frustration. I’m smallish and can’t always find what I want in my size.

    Being on the end of the producer, I can understand that it is not the producers social duty to provide services for all who want them.

    The author Tom Robbins has a great summation of one of my favorite prayers. He said something along the lines of “don’t complain about the weather”. It is a waste of energy to complain about something that you can not change. The longer version goes something like, God grant me the patience to accept what I can not change, the strength to change what I can, and the wisdom to see the difference.

    So the world isn’t catering itself to our desires. Bad, bad world!

  170. Thinking that other people don’t have the same internal worth is essential for humans to justify hierarchies. That’s how we can let ourselves, as beings whose minds are capable of considering the implications of our actions in a way other animals’ aren’t, exercise dominance over other humans as if they were weaker animals, rather than treat them as equals.

    I was just going to let this slide, as I don’t consider this meme, or idea that propogates, to be strong enough to affect society. In other words, I can’t imagine that most people would be able to believe such ideas. You seem to be implying that unless we hold the strictest of communist ideoligies in all thought and action, we disrespect the autonomy and value of individuals.

    I was right in my initial impulse. A counter reply isn’t even needed. The idea is its own satire.

  171. It also mystifies me btw how people spend time and money on porn rather than on becoming someone real people will actually want to have sex with

    Why can’t people do both? Why is cultivating one’s sexuality some sort of zero-sum game where one is either focusing on oneself OR on other people?

  172. I think a person must be of an uncommonly low denominator not to innately realize that all people with bodies have an internal self that is worth empathising with. I’d think if one didn’t automatically assume this, one would have serious cognitive deficits that could be labelled as a personality disorder.

    I find it really surprising that someone who’s arguing on the one hand for the inevitability of hierarchies in human social relationships would assume, on the other hand, that this kind of thinking is so rare among people.

    We seem to be confusing each other here. I can see that once again my writing is not up to the task of conveying my idea clearly. Writing carefully is at least as difficult as reading carefully.

    I am not arguing for the inevitability of hierarchies. I am saying that hierarchies are natural, and are not unhealthy. They are not always the only or best solution, nor are they always the worst solution.

    I’m not getting what you mean when you say “that this kind of thinking is so rare”. Which kind? The over-emphasis on the objective-physical, or the over-emphasis on the internal subjective? My point is that either swing, if swung to far, is, to be blunt and polemic, insane. I pointed out that anyone who can’t even notice that other people bodies include an individual self with their own sense of volition and their own ideas has cognitive deficits. I then alluded that the opposite swing is what people satirize when they use the word “academic”. Totally heady, and disconnected from practicality in the real, physical world. All about ideas. How many people orgasm to the beauty of mathematical equations? None. How many people orgasm to the beauty of a physical form? Plenty. So, what is on the outside is real and has real effects, and to emphasise only what is on the inside is… insane.

  173. Why can’t people do both? Why is cultivating one’s sexuality some sort of zero-sum game where one is either focusing on oneself OR on other people?

    Oops, sorry. I tend to be really really long-winded, and then edit down to maybe 1/5 the original comment so I don’t waste people’s time, and I seem to have killed too much context.
    This was in reference to Jen’s example with the “not so smart” male porn renters etc. who couldn’t find a date, from the porn store clerk weblog. My comment on that was supposed to be that a) I don’t think that being unable to get a date constitutes a moral right to a woman’s body, or images thereof, that b) that made it sound like they’d given up on becoming somebody someone would want to date and that I’m not sure that’s good for them or society, and c) that if they masturbate either out of choice or for lack of one, that still doesn’t necessarily have to be with porn. So I’m worried not so much about masturbation, but about porn and lack of choice.

    The way Jen explained it to me I understand why some people choose porn as a crutch because they have trouble fantasizing themselves, but I feel the mid- to long-term goal would be to “walk without.” It seems to me that human existence without growing or self-betterment is stagnant, and that making your own fantasies will afford you extra autonomy. You’ll also cease to exist as a consumer of something that we haven’t proved isn’t harmful. Worst case, that won’t make society on the whole better for women or for all. Any other case: it will, at no extra cost to you. Yay! What could be a better goal?

    (On a side-note, it is of course still a zero-sum game in terms of time etc., but it certainly doesn’t have to be either/or.)

  174. gayle and others wondering where their comments are: i’m trying to get comments out of moderation, but having problems with the approval pages loading. as noted in the original post, it’s some kind of automated process that puts comments in moderation. i don’t control it or even understand it. and how long it takes for something to get posted has to do with my schedule and the state of the feministe wordpress database, not content. thanks for being patient and understanding.

  175. How many people orgasm to the beauty of mathematical equations? None.

    Hey, I do!

    Just kidding. But in all seriousness, I bet there’s someone out there with that kink.

    Just had to inject a little humor here, before I ask people to please refrain from eye-rolling and sly insults in the interest of keeping the thread civil and on-topic. Also, if you are not sure what someone means, please ask them to clarify rather than making as assumption about what they are advocating and then mischaracterizing them.

    Thanks!

  176. The way Jen explained it to me I understand why some people choose porn as a crutch because they have trouble fantasizing themselves, but I feel the mid- to long-term goal would be to “walk without.” It seems to me that human existence without growing or self-betterment is stagnant, and that making your own fantasies will afford you extra autonomy.

    Thanks for explaining your statement in such depth! 🙂

    I think part of what the original comment was getting at is that it can be very difficult for some people with disabilities or severe problems with social skills to “better themselves” in the way you’re describing.

    I’m thinking of a comment on an old post to another feminist board about RealDolls. Most commenters thought they were creepy and disgusting and their users even worse. Then one guy piped up with “I have Asperger’s syndrome and I’m thinking of getting one of those. While I’d like a relationship, I have such severe difficulty with social interactions that I really don’t think figuring out how they work in a way that will allow me to be a good partner to someone for a long time will happen. One of these dolls has seemed, for a long time, like a sensible compromise for me, so I’m saving my money.”

    Now, I don’t know this guy or his difficulties, so I could see someone saying “That’s a horrible attitude, and should change.” But… even if we say that, is there really some profound ill to someone who admits that social interaction is THAT hard for him not seeking out a relationship? Is it really right for us to be saying we know what kind of self-enrichment work people with cognitive disabilities or other issues should and shouldn’t be doing?

    While I was sad to see this guy “give up” I also didn’t/don’t feel like I’d be in any place to criticize unless I knew him and knew exactly how much difficulty he had with interpersonal stuff and sexuality related interaction specifically.

  177. Being on the end of the producer, I can understand that it is not the producers social duty to provide services for all who want them.

    No, but it is the consumer’s right (and I would say duty, if the consumer thinks that the lack is a symptom of a larger societal problem) to try to change the situation. And that’s what some of the strategies we’re talking about are getting at.

    So the world isn’t catering itself to our desires. Bad, bad world!

    Casting feminist analysis as simple carping—and spoiled, over-entitled carping at that—is, ah, unproductive at best.

  178. I am glad that I got to hear from people who feel that their S&M tendencies are biologically rooted.

    Really? Not that I haven’t heard it before, it’s just that it doesn’t make me glad in the least — that way, it just seems one more nurture/nature case, and those bloody things never seem to get resolved, do they? ;-/

  179. Azundris-

    As for the ones that don’t? Like the not-so-smart guys you mentioned? Assuming it’s not just some Nice Guy act going where they’re simply pouty they can’t date someone way out of their league?

    I was beating around the bush in my description of the men whose only real shot at sexuality is porn, and for that I apolgize. I was talking about the mentally retarded- not so bad that they have to live in facilities, but men and women who can live on their own but have extremely low IQs and little to no interpersonal skills. I work at a job that hired a few of these people for simple jobs; I believe this is in part because the state we live in reimburses my business partially for this, though I cannot confirm that.

    Let’s get this out of the way- I am not going to date them, and I doubt you will either. There are laws in place that can prevent them from having sex, because while they are physically adults they still might have what I will phrase as “full adults” making the decisions for them. In other words, not only is it nearly impossible for them to have sex with smart feminist people, it might be illegal. I wish these guys had a wider range of options, but for many, it might be only porn. That is what the blog I mentioned was discussing- that for various reasons it is hard for these types of guys to even rent movies, and it is literally the only way many of them are going to get to be exposed to sexuality in any real way.

    I acknowledge that to many of those situations, porn movies maybe an answer, but it rarely seems to only one to me.

    Absolutely. I agree that there is often other options, but how many people are aware of them or have life circumstances that they can overcome to reach that goal?

    But I guess it’s not the same thing, one is actually believing that sexuality is bad, and the other is believing getting caught is bad?

    One feeds the other, I think. But either is going to screw with you.

    What I don’t get is how if someone ends up believing all sexuality (incl. watching porn, presumably) is bad, and they have the option of fixing their problems fantasizing and being their own woman, or being a consumer and to boot one of material we can’t seem to conclusively prove is not rather problematic for society in general and women in particular, they end up picking the latter.

    This is, I think, because it is a much scarier journey to confront your own inner sexual demons and overcome your upbringing than it is to pop in a DVD. And, this is a crucial point, people want to get off. They do. Orgasms are awesome. Research and waiting another 20 years for studies that can conclude maybe something different and maybe not is long and boring, getting off now is getting off now.

    It seems like making a personal issue everybody’s problem. (It also mystifies me btw how people spend time and money on porn rather than on becoming someone real people will actually want to have sex with, but that may be just me, thinking that self-betterment would benefit both the person in question and society on the whole.

    Again, I think its not that simple for many people who have issues- mental or physical handicaps, class barriers, or other reasons. And I think you are over simplifying- there are not the people in couples and the ugly idiots who use porn as two groups. The groups of couples and people who enjoy porn overlap to a much larger degree than you are acknowledging. Even couples are apart occasionally. Partnered sex simply isn’t always an option. Nor do I think it should be only option for someone in a couple.

    I’m also confused because a lot of the problems you’ve shown have non-porny solutions (Partner doesn’t like particular fantasy? Well, don’t do it with that partner etc. In this example, if you don’t wanna go poly, that’s fine, but then own that choice.)

    Again, for young, unchilded people, this might be an option. But are you really advocating open marriages or divorce for couples that are composed of vanilla and one kinkster? If your wife won’t spank you, should you divorce her, open up your marriage, or maybe just activate your fantasies? This puts the wife in a terrible position- she has to either be a single parent, or agree to be poly when she herself is mono, or she has to agree to do things in bed she is not comfortable with, for whatever reason.

    But that’s another discussion, and quite possibly one neither of us wants to have right now. So, thanks so far, I learned something about where the issue comes from.

    Thank you as well for discussing this with me.

  180. Thanks for explaining your statement in such depth!

    You shoulda seen the first draft! 😉 The downside is that whole “those who try to exhaust a subject only exhaust their readers bit”, the upside is that if I go on for long enough, with a little bit of luck I’ll contradict yourself, then someone can call bullshit, and I can learn. 🙂

    I think part of what the original comment was getting at is that it can be very difficult for some people with disabilities or severe problems with social skills to “better themselves” in the way you’re describing.

    Yeah. As I alluded to, I wonder how many of those cases are “Nice Guy-ish” — in that little dreamworld in my mind, I’m just matchmaking so the not so handsome guy ends up with the not so pretty woman, the not so smart man with the slightly slow woman, etc., happily ever after. Whee!

    No, this doesn’t get any easier if you elect to live in a one horse town. But if you’re not happy there, it doesn’t mean that the world owes you porn. It means that you probably want to choose again! Sometimes, that choice just doesn’t exist, but the world still doesn’t owe you porn.

    Interestingly, the two aspies I know personally are in a relationship (not with each other); one of them is married. This is anecdotal evidence of course, not all aspies are the same, and I don’t know the person you were referring to any more than you do, so I’m not writing this to say, well, obviously, Real Doll guy isn’t trying hard enough. If change is impossible, then it’s impossible. I’m still somewhat conflicted on those dolls; on one hand, I’m trying to treat them like other sex toys, on the other, there’s the whole “dildos don’t have eyes” thing — people don’t usually try to build a relationship with other sex toys the way some RD owners do, plus the whole Well, look at me, I could never date a real woman like that! bit etc.
    Over in the RD thread, someone said, yeah, it’s kinda enticing to think that this at least keeps some funky people out of the dating circuit, but some of these guys have real issues with women, and they can still be your boss etc., and I guess the same could be said about porn? In fact by that token, the RD may be preferable since except for the consumer, there are no real people involved (in the sex side of things)?

  181. JenLovesPonies:

    I agree that there is often other options, but how many people are aware of them

    “They are ignorant and thus have a moral right to porn” is not an argument I’m happy with. “We need much better sex ed!” is something I could agree with.

    I was talking about […] men and women who can live on their own but have extremely low IQs and little to no interpersonal skills. […] I wish these guys had a wider range of options, but for many, it might be only porn.

    I’d think “just masturbation” is an option? I understand what you explained about how it’s not easy for some people to make their own fantasies, but that doesn’t mean certain things won’t feel nice physically? Surely they notice, hey, if I touch myself there, it feels good, so I guess I’ll do some more of that, like people have been doing for centuries, even before they had showers? 🙂

    (In fact from a certain angle it seems kinder to leave it at that than show them something they can never have?)

    This is, I think, because it is a much scarier journey to confront your own inner sexual demons and overcome your upbringing than it is to pop in a DVD.

    That may be something we can agree on. My request is not, “stop what you’re doing and be perfect now!” Most people aren’t. I know I’m not. If somebody else is selfish or messes up, they can expect a degree of empathy from me. What they shouldn’t expect is a goddamn cookie. What I expect is that if somebody messes up, they come up with a plan to fix that. That’s how adults do things. Or at least, that’s what they keep telling me. 🙂

    Partnered sex simply isn’t always an option. Nor do I think it should be only option for someone in a couple.

    There’s always clubs and all that, but if they prefer to masturbate instead, that’s obviously perfectly fine. Let’s be precise here. I’m not worried about “is not always an option”, I’m worried about “is never an option.” Likewise, I’m not worried about “masturbation,” I’m worried about “masturbation with porn, particularly movies involving real women.”

    If your wife won’t spank you, should you divorce her, open up your marriage, or maybe just activate your fantasies?

    I’m biased in favour of, the only way to get rid of temptation is to yield to it, where “moral” and RACK, or whatnot. In the first place, I found a number of fantasies don’t survive implementation. It looks good in theory, it feels like pointless unsexy shit in practice. So there, dead and buried. Seems better than wondering what if? for the rest of your life. As a side-note, I’m wondering whether the ones that work are the bits that are actually you, and the others images that society told you to find arousing. That btw is another issue where I don’t expect people to say, Oh, tomorrow before breakfast, I’ll purge all those evil images the patriarchy instilled in me, but rather, I’m on the case.

    This puts the wife in a terrible position

    Yes, it does. Or it puts the husband in a terrible position.

    she has to either be a single parent, or agree to be poly when she herself is mono, or she has to agree to do things in bed she is not comfortable with, for whatever reason.

    To rephrase, the question should I stay or should I go is equally awkward for any kind of significantly growing apart, not just sexually. So the answer has little to do with sex, and much to do with how things work in the particular relationship in general. Do you give the other party space to grow? Do give what they’re newly-fascinated in a try? Do you demand they stay the person you married? Nothing to do with sex in particular.

    On a theoretical level btw I always found it very strange how it’s OK when I have (not necessarily sex-related) intimate conversations with different people, but not (not necessarily terribly intimate) sex with different people.

    So, we started from, “orgasms are great, people will get off”, but then don’t follow through to the obvious, “so they should have as many great ones as possible, with as many people as necessary or desirable, which ideally will teach them new things and thus keep the sex part of the primary relationship fresh to boot.”? 🙂

  182. but that doesn’t mean certain things won’t feel nice physically?

    Yeah it does actually, some people can’t achieve the mental state necessary for arousal just from a physical sensation from their own hands.

  183. I’m biased in favour of, the only way to get rid of temptation is to yield to it, where “moral” and RACK, or whatnot. In the first place, I found a number of fantasies don’t survive implementation. It looks good in theory, it feels like pointless unsexy shit in practice. So there, dead and buried. Seems better than wondering what if? for the rest of your life. As a side-note, I’m wondering whether the ones that work are the bits that are actually you, and the others images that society told you to find arousing. That btw is another issue where I don’t expect people to say, Oh, tomorrow before breakfast, I’ll purge all those evil images the patriarchy instilled in me, but rather, I’m on the case.

    Okay, but what happens if you find that the stuff that you think is “imposed” is how you really feel? And when you say “the only way to get rid of temptation is to yield to it” what are you claiming there about people in monogamous relationships? It sounds almost like you’re saying everyone should be okay with polyamory everywhere, and that surely doesn’t fit with most people’s current reality.

    How does one yield to a temptation when one can’t go outside a relationship and it’s considered immoral to use porn? Unless the idea is “go find unusual media…”

  184. Trinity,

    when you say “the only way to get rid of temptation is to yield to it” what are you claiming there about people in monogamous relationships?

    I’m saying that if sex is the most important thing by far in your relationship, then when it stops being fun, the obvious response is to move on.

    I’m saying that if sex isn’t terribly important in your relationship, then what does it matter if someone gets some outside the primary relationship, as long as they don’t catch anything? (The unifying shared value could probably be anything from being soulmates to staying together because of the kids.)

    Most of all I’m saying that monogamy implies the attempt to be everything to someone. I think you can be everything to someone for some time. Or some things all the time. If you want to be everything to them all the time, good luck. To rephrase, if the other party has to resort to porn, you have already failed at being everything to them.

    Now suppose I’m the wife of this guy who is suddenly obsessed with this fantasy that just doesn’t work for me. He can’t let it be. So, I already know I can’t be everything to him sexually. I also know that it’s a big enough deal so he can’t just let it be. My romantic dream is already damaged, whether his pragmatic solution to the problem involves porn, prostitutes, or polyness seems to differ little, except on “general harm to women and society” grounds, and with regard to that, poly clearly seems the least problematic.

    I do acknowledge this one difference: husbands are probably less likely to run off and start a new life with a porn tape. But if that’s my rationale, there’s losers all around. Me, because I’m letting my life be ruled by fear. And all women, if porn is damaging to all women.

    How does one yield to a temptation when one can’t go outside a relationship and it’s considered immoral to use porn?

    First off, you make it sound like a porn-supported fantasy is anywhere near actually doing the thing in question. I’m not sure I agree with that.
    Secondly, you don’t. If your relationship hinges on holding each other’s sexuality prisoner, then you don’t. (Or you change the rules, or you call it off, but that really constitutes different ways of ‘going outside the relationship.’)

    So really, what’s the alternative? When people are no longer sexually compatible, they’ll just never have partnered sex again for the rest of their lives? Is that your romantic ideal?

    (Mind, I’m not saying that because there’s one fantasy not shared by the partners, that necessarily constitutes ‘no longer sexually compatible’ by itself. The person with the fantasy can just try it outside the relationship. If the “rules” of that relationship don’t allow that, they can decide to leave that fantasy be, a small sacrifice to a relationship well worth it, right? If on the other hand it’s a really big deal, then yeah, sounds like diminished compatibility?)

    that surely doesn’t fit with most people’s current reality.

    I’m also saying that it would be awfully nice to live in a world where feminism is no longer necessary/the normal state of affairs, and that doesn’t fit most people’s current reality either. What are you saying to me?

    what happens if you find that the stuff that you think is “imposed” is how you really feel?

    I’m not quite sure what you are asking, so I apologize if my answer ends up beside the point. If you mean, What if I try a fantasy with a 3rd party, and it doesn’t go away? What if I actually like it and want more? Well, then you get more.

    It sounds almost like you’re saying everyone should be okay with polyamory everywhere,

    I’m not. Unless you mean in a wouldn’t it be awfully nice, would make a lot of things much easier way.

    What I think people “should” is acknowledge that not doing so comes at a price.

    If people feel their relationship is well worth that price, more power to them.

  185. In case anyone is interested in a cognitive linguistic view of the debate, I have a paper on this subject at http://www.sensiblemarks.info/debating.html . Basically it applies theories of categorisation and metaphor to conservative and feminist arguments about porn, though unfortunately there’s nothing about sex-pos arguments, since they were less in evidence when I wrote this piece.

  186. and when we say “dominance” are we assuming here that all men are dominant and all women submissive?

    Because in the society we live in, it seems to be overwhelmingly that way. Personally, I suspect it’s often not so much an inherent gender bias as it is that: (a) some people see D/s as the same old gender roles, only with the rules made explicit, and (b) the idea still floating around that if you’re not into some form of BDSM, you’re repressed, prudish, less sexual/sexy. So what you get are a lot of people who just want to be acknowledged as sexual beings feeling like they *have* to pick a side, and there’s less resistance if you go with the patriarchal roles.

  187. Solri Says:

    In case anyone is interested in a cognitive linguistic view of the debate, I have a paper on this subject at http://www.sensiblemarks.info/debating.html . Basically it applies theories of categorisation and metaphor to conservative and feminist arguments about porn, though unfortunately there’s nothing about sex-pos arguments, since they were less in evidence when I wrote this piece.

    Based on a quick look at your paper, while you do make some interesting points about applying Lakoff’s ideas on “framing” to the porn debates, you survey of the porn debate, is, well, shallow.

    Most of what you cite from the porn debates is from the early 1980s, and nothing later than 1991. To say that the sex-positive position wasn’t “in evidence” as of 1999 is a pretty jaw-dropping oversight, actually. Not only was this position “in evidence”, but the Feminist Porn Wars had largely run their course by 1990 (even though they seem to be back now in the 2000s), with much “sex-pos” literature having been written during the 1980s and 1990s.

    Sorry to be so critical, but what the paper misses is glaring and misses a lot of what the debate was about. Unfortunate, because there are some valid points there about framing and metaphors.

  188. Most of all I’m saying that monogamy implies the attempt to be everything to someone.

    I’m not especially strict about my monogamy, personally, but I’ve always been bothered when polyamorous people put these words in monogamous people’s mouths. While I’m sure there are very unreflective people in the world who really do believe that finding their soul mate will somehow magically fulfill every emotional need they could ever have, as well as be compatible sexually with them on every level, I highly doubt most monogamous people haven’t faced reality.

    Personally I actually don’t think nonmonogamy means getting all of your needs met either. You have to actually be able to find partners to meet each need, juggle negotiation, jealousy, and consent, etc. I don’t think any of us anywhere gets all our needs met, mono or poly alike — that’s the nature of being human.

    So I always find it odd as an argument for polyamory that somehow being poly means not having to deal with not getting everything from one person — surely “not getting everything” is a perfectly normal state however many partners you have.

    Of course, for some people polyamory (or simple sexual nonmonogamy) is an excellent way to make sure they get more of what they need, and for them it’s a great option. But I think this whole “do you get as many of your needs met living that way as I get living this way?” question is, well, based on assuming nonmonogamy or polyamory is for everyone.

    And I’m not big on “everyone”ing… particularly about sexuality.

  189. (a) some people see D/s as the same old gender roles, only with the rules made explicit

    But they’re not, and it’s quite heterocentric to assume so. Unless one wants to argue that queers are aping hets, which homophobic hets have argued since time immemorial and I don’t think we should be doing too.

    A more minor problem is that that makes even straight female tops and straight male bottoms totally invisible.

    and (b) the idea still floating around that if you’re not into some form of BDSM, you’re repressed, prudish, less sexual/sexy.

    …what?

    Who has ever said this? BDSM is a subculture. Yeah, it’s making inroads into the popular consciousness but I have never seen anyone claim this. Frankly I’m startled by it. What’s this pressure and how does it manifest?

  190. Being on the end of the producer, I can understand that it is not the producers social duty to provide services for all who want them.

    No, but it is the consumer’s right (and I would say duty, if the consumer thinks that the lack is a symptom of a larger societal problem) to try to change the situation. And that’s what some of the strategies we’re talking about are getting at.

    How is it that a minority of women, complaining that porn isn’t geared to women, will be able to affect the porn industry to produce more women oriented porn, as consumers? Consumers can either purchase, or not purchase. Women not purchasing won’t change anything. What other options are there for women as consumer advocates to encourage more women-centric porn?

    So the world isn’t catering itself to our desires. Bad, bad world!

    Casting feminist analysis as simple carping—and spoiled, over-entitled carping at that—is, ah, unproductive at best.

    It hadn’t occured to me that I was typecasting – I thought I had stumbled upon an insight specific to that situation. If it seems I’ve instead repeated an over-repeated stereotype… To be a little snarky again, well, dot dot dot and pregnant pause. If the shoe fits too tightly, I don’t see how it is an unproductive shoe.

  191. xsplat, it’s only your opinion that this particular shoe fits at all. and since your position here and in earlier comments demonstrates clearly a lack of belief in possibilities for social change, i’m not going to get caught up in any more back and forth.

  192. Lisa Says:

    xsplat, it’s only your opinion that this particular shoe fits at all. and since your position here and in earlier comments demonstrates clearly a lack of belief in possibilities for social change, i’m not going to get caught up in any more back and forth.

    I hardly think that the position that there may be some hard-wired components of human sexuality, such as tendencies towards dominance and submission roles, sexual attraction to certain physical types, etc. constitutes “lack of belief in possibilities for social change”. It simply implies using real existing sexuality as a starting point rather than trying to mold everybody’s sexuality to some idealized form that exists in one’s own head. Lack of pure, unrestrained idealism is not the same as being against any change at all, something idealists tend to lose sight of.

  193. Trinity –

    A lot of us poly-oriented folks do see monogamy as putting all of one’s eggs in one basket, and multiple partners as increasing one’s chances of satisfaction of a range of sexual desires. That’s not the same as saying everybody needs to go out and become poly, its just pointing out one of the tradeoffs of monogamy. There are tradeoffs in polyamory, too. Its up to individuals to figure out whether pros and cons are worth a particular relationship mode. Then again, I think people are basically mono or poly based on an underlying orientation that doesn’t necessarily have a whole lot to do with rational choice.

  194. libidojournal Says:

    “‘and when we say “dominance” are we assuming here that all men are dominant and all women submissive?’

    Because in the society we live in, it seems to be overwhelmingly that way. Personally, I suspect it’s often not so much an inherent gender bias as it is that: (a) some people see D/s as the same old gender roles, only with the rules made explicit, and (b) the idea still floating around that if you’re not into some form of BDSM, you’re repressed, prudish, less sexual/sexy. So what you get are a lot of people who just want to be acknowledged as sexual beings feeling like they *have* to pick a side, and there’s less resistance if you go with the patriarchal roles.”

    I simply think a realistic appraisal of most sexual relationships does show some kind of dominance/submission aspect going on. Its very typical for one partner to be more the initiator and to tend to “run the fuck”. Even in relationships where the claim is that both partner’s are absolutely equal. The thing is, there’s nothing inherently wrong with that dynamic (being a top in bed does not automatically translate to being domineering in everyday life), but its better if its understood and acknowledged.

    Also, some of the people who crow the loudest about “egalitarian” sexuality seem to take an inordinate interest in micromanaging other people’s sexuality, something that is very much a dominance relationship (or at least an attempt at it), and that much more unhealthy because of the often non-consensual nature of such attempts at domination.

    As for the idea one is “repressed” if one doesn’t practice BDSM, I don’t know who’s saying that.

  195. On the issue of porn, can bloggers convene to do more than try to agree on what to wring hands over?

    Assuming there came aggreement on what should change, what avenue for change can you persue?
    1) Legal? If this were practical, the very powerful religious right would have cubed porn already.
    2) Social pressures? As I used to steal Penthouses at age 9, i can’t imagine social pressures will overide libidinous pressures.
    3) Affect supply or demand? Anyone on the globe with a cam-phone and a net connection can produce and distribute porn. Demand is insatiable.

    I suggest the only way to positively affect sex culture is to have unusually great sex, and condone your practice to others. Choose the porn (or lack of it) that fits your lifestyle of great sex, and condone others to do likewise.

    The whole quibble about whether little black boxes steal bits of women’s souls and transfer them to paper and hard-drives is a primitive superstition. Souls are not being stolen and objectified, flattened and commodified. The commodity is the endorphin, testosterone, oxitocyn and adrenaline rush. The medium is data storage and display, and the source is graphic art, CGI, or video recording. No soul got objectified in the process.

    1) The blogosphere has virtually no impact on the porn industry.
    2) There is nothing in porn that has not been going on for thousands of years, and that won’t continue to go on long past our deaths
    3) If you want to make a cultural impact, lead by example; be happier than most.

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