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BBC dives into the radfem/transphobia debate?

The BBC has seen fit to give voice to Julie Bindel, “a radical feminist and journalist, who [is] trying to persuade medics and trans people that sex change surgery is unnecessary mutilation.”

I’m not at all clear from the article whether or not Bindel identifies as a radfem or if radical is just the adjective chosen by the writer, although I do suspect that the author is unaware that radical feminist is a term of art (instead of just an epithet like devout Catholic.) What I am clear on is that Bindel is using the guise of feminism in whatever form to advance views that are blatantly transphobic.

Bindel expounds upon her views in an an op-ed in the Guardian, where she explains that the acceptance of transsexuality “arises from the strong stereotyping of girls and boys into strict gender roles.” She whines about how people were upset when she referred to transwomen as “men in dresses” and claimed that a world inhabited by transsexuals “would look like the set of Grease.” The nerve of those letter writers! Having the audacity to claim that she was being bigoted and intolerant when all she wanted to do was make mock of a group of people on the basis of their identity!

Bindel also frets that had she been sent to see a psychologist who endorsed the idea of sex reassignment as a child, she (as a lesbian) could now be writing as a transman. I have no idea where Bindel gets the idea that sex reassignment is somehow like having your tonsils out. It’s not something that your physician proposes to you, you respond that you’ll trust their judgment, and then sign on the line. There are many readers here far more qualified than I am to explain what their doctors required before performing surgery, but the typical requirements include living at least a year full-time in one’s new gender role, taking hormones for extended periods of time, and extensive psychological counseling. There is no possible way, whatsoever, that Bindel would have been forced into becoming a transman merely by saying she wasn’t attracted to men.

I’m also really irked that the BBC has attempted to ascribe Bindel’s bigotry to either feminism as a whole or radical feminism in particular.

Radical feminists have ideological reasons for opposing sex change surgery.

To them, the claim that someone can be “born into the wrong sex” is a deeply threatening concept.

Many feminists believe that the behaviours and feelings which are considered typically masculine or typically feminine are purely socially conditioned.

There are so many things wrong with these sentences, my head hurts. 1) “Radical feminists” (however defined) are not some sort of monolith. 2) Threatening to what, exactly? 3) The idea that gendered behaviors are conditioned and not innate is not the exclusive province of feminists. In fact, there’s a huge field called sociology which makes the same argument.

Then there’s Bindel’s take on the sine qua non of feminism: She seems to think that because “Feminists want to rid the world of gender rules and regulations…how [can it be] possible to support a theory which has at its centre the notion that there is something essential and biological about the way boys and girls behave?”

How, exactly, are these views incompatible? I don’t dispute, for example, that people who are born sexed male have, on average, more testosterone than those born sexed female. I do dispute that testosterone levels should have any kind of moral meaning or result in a judgment of superiority or inferiority. There is something innate and biological about the ways that *humans* behave. The gender roles are something that we’ve created.

NOTE: This post is not to be construed as radfem bash-fest or anything of the sort.

Via Vanessa at Feministing.


110 thoughts on BBC dives into the radfem/transphobia debate?

  1. I agree with your last point about noticing biological sex differences without thinking that gender roles are “essential”. I think that trans people challenge the essentialist nature of gender roles just by existing and living in the world. If gender was so “essential” to our biology, then there wouldn’t be any trans people. But there are trans people, so gender can’t be that essential.

  2. I always recommend that people who think that gender and sex* identification is 100% socially constructed read John Colapinto’s As Nature Made Him, which is about the aftermath of an experiment to raise a biological boy who had lost his penis in an accident as a girl. It was, needless to say, a complete fiasco.

    For me, the book (a) makes me think that the connection between biological sex and socially constructed gender is more complicated than anyone realizes and (b) convinced me that if I ever give birth to an intersexed child, there will be NO SURGERY until the child is at least 16 and can decide for him/herself** if s/he** wants surgery or wants to leave things as they are.

    * Yes, I think that gender identification and sex identification are two different, though related, things.

    ** I know there’s a gender-neutral term but I’m not sure how to use it and I don’t want to accidentally offend anyone by using the wrong one.

  3. I see a real tension there, but it’s difficult to have a conversation about it without being accused of either transbashing or radfem bashing.

  4. Why should the origin of a transperson’s gender identity matter at all to a feminist? Whether it’s biological or a reaction to living in a fucked-up, patriarchal gender binary or something else altogether, transpeople, like GLB people, are being oppressed because of the gender anxieties of misogynists. As a feminist, I’m working against misogyny, and that includes speaking up for the rights of transpeople. Hating the oppressed because you’ve arbitrarily decided they aren’t fighting their own oppression correctly just makes you another oppressor.

  5. Oh, for the record, I don’t think there’s anything anti-feminist at all about identifying as transgendered.

  6. I think the debate about the social construction/essentialism of gender ends up being a red herring, in much the same way that the same debate with respect to sexual orientation ends up being a red herring. Whether or not the expression of gender or sexual orientation comes from genetic predisposition, hormonal secretions motivated by a reaction between the physical and social environment in which a person lives and such person’s genes, positive and negative reinforcement of behavior — a person’s sense of identity is not changeable by external means. Period.

    People over and over say, “I’ve felt like this all my life, but I haven’t had the courage to be fully myself,” even though the social pressures are gigantically stacked against them, leading me to believe that the real threat is not people finding some way to express how they really feel they ought to be in their core identity, but rather the threat is found in the hangups so many other people have in trying to oppress those whose non-stereotypical actions, feelings or desires somehow appear to be a challenge.

    And, of course, there’s a threat to real discourse about these issues when they’re described in such a silly and reductionist manner by a media too lazy to describe a single radical feminist views as her own. “Radical feminists” as a group believe a wide variety of things. Why is this not a “duh” concept?

  7. Mnemosyne: try the Wikipedia article on genderqueer for some gender-neutral pronouns.

    Thanks! My carpal tunnels are not happy with having to type “his/herself” all the damn time. Stupid knitting obsession that caused a flare-up …

  8. Bindel suffers from the same basic error of logic that afflict Judith Butler’s reasoning – namely that she takes a position that “gender is performative”, and more specifically that there is no core identity that is separable from the presented behaviour.

    As much as I hate sweeping generalities, it’s not uncommon for transsexuals (especially) to claim a dramatically different gender identity from their behaviours at the time of the initial claim.

    (Oddly, were it not for their use of such claims, I’m such that many of the political/social goals of feminists like Bindel would be supported whole-heartedly by transfolk)

  9. If social conditioning creates gender–if those traits are one hundred percent socially conditioned–then why are there trans people? Either the social conditioning for traits doesn’t actually work–requiring a change of theory–or there are people for whom it doesn’t take/who absorb the “wrong” set of conditioning, for some reason, a reason we’ll handwave away even though it’s apparently significant enough to make a person reject the messages most of society is throwing at them and put their life on the line to do so.

    If this is all socially conditioned, then any “trans tendencies” ought to be conditioned out of everyone. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. A male raised as a man could never try to break out into a socially-forbidden “feminine” role and end up convinced of the need to transition, because social conditioning would have made that person a socially-acceptable masculine man. If he’s a feminine man, that would have been socially conditioned too. Either our society sanctions feminine men and masculine women, or it doesn’t.

    You just can’t argue that someone’s socially conditioned, for ever and ever amen, to be What Gender They Are, and that they’re also conditioned to want the opposite of that, so strongly they’ll disrupt their entire lives to shuck off their previous identities and live as another sort of person. Social pressure either encourages trans people to exist, encourages them not to exist, or doesn’t influence them the way this person thinks it does.

    I don’t know any trans people who didn’t receive strong training, conditioning, and “encouragement” not to be trans. If this stuff were all socially-determined, they’d have stopped being trans. Does social pressure and cultural background strongly affect how these inclinations are expressed? Sure, I’ll say that’s absurd not to notice. But the “pure nurture” model, applied to trans people, becomes simply ridiculous.

  10. Well, ok, stepping in it a bit. There are a few people who propose ways of thinking outside of the box. There was the one neat little book I picked up which argued for a way of talking about gender in terms of three colors. Unfortunately, I can’t remember the author name or the title, and thus can’t find it again.

    But I find this debate to be profoundly alienating. Much of transgender seems to still be buying into an essentialist mode, proposing that gender and sex idenification is in the brain rather than the genitals. And it seems to me that transgender is orthogonal to my political needs. I’m not transexual, transgender, or genderqueer. I’m more than happy being male/man/masculine. But I hate living in a culture where my roles and behavior are circumscribed based on my sex and gender. I hate the fact that being queer and a sissy has made it permissible to make me a target for violence.

    Where I think the tension comes in is that transgender offers a lot so people who idenitfy as something other than their birth-gender, and not much to those people who do. Defining gendered deviance as a function of changing gender, does little for making those behaviors not deviant in the first place.

  11. The identification one has with one’s gender is ingrained, regardless of what some radfems want us to believe. This is, however, a matter of very intuitive identification. Socially conditioned traits based on one’s sex are a whole different story..Considering the suicide rates for transpeople who don’t get treatment, I think it’s very insensitive to engage in this sort of denial just to avoid that doesn’t fit one’s theory.

    I have far more qualms with genderqueer on that aspect..

  12. little light: If this is all socially conditioned, then any “trans tendencies” ought to be conditioned out of everyone. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. A male raised as a man could never try to break out into a socially-forbidden “feminine” role and end up convinced of the need to transition, because social conditioning would have made that person a socially-acceptable masculine man. If he’s a feminine man, that would have been socially conditioned too. Either our society sanctions feminine men and masculine women, or it doesn’t.

    And what of those of us who have been trying to break out for many years, and end up convinced of the need for a revolution in the way in which this fucked up society considers gender? Anne Fausto-Sterling notes that a medical community that had been grudgingly comfortable with gender diversity became polarized once SRS was developed. In that some aspects of TG activism tends to reinforce the view that gender is binary, I think radical feminist criticisms are valid.

  13. And what of those of us who have been trying to break out for many years, and end up convinced of the need for a revolution in the way in which this fucked up society considers gender?

    I don’t see a contradiction there. I agree with what little light said, and also see the need for a revolution in the way society considers gender — asbolutely. That doesn’t mean that trans people don’t exist, or that trans people are entirely created by gendered categories.

    I think the debate about the social construction/essentialism of gender ends up being a red herring, in much the same way that the same debate with respect to sexual orientation ends up being a red herring. Whether or not the expression of gender or sexual orientation comes from genetic predisposition, hormonal secretions motivated by a reaction between the physical and social environment in which a person lives and such person’s genes, positive and negative reinforcement of behavior — a person’s sense of identity is not changeable by external means. Period.

    This is very well put and bears repeating, and re-reading, and understanding. Nothing about respecting trans people, trans people’s genders, or providing medical care for trans people requires anyone to believe that gender is biological, essential, or linked to some kind of gender performance, like masculinity or femininity.

    As Julia Serano points out in her recent book, people used to think that being trans was the same thing as being gay — except more extreme somehow. There was a confusion and conflation of gender identity and sexual orientation, just like there was with earlier terms like “invert” (anyone remember the Well of Loneliness) that suggested that gayness = identification with the other sex.

    Now that people are starting to get that people can have a sexual orientation and a gender that are independent of each other, we’re still trapped in thinking that somehow gender expression is still essentially connected somehow to being trans, or a necessary part of the explanation. That’s where all this stuff about “social pressure on masculine women and feminine boys” stuff comes in, and why some people get really confused about the fact that there are femme trans guys and butch trans women — or they assume that trans people with these kinds of gender expressions are just defective somehow, or incapable of passing, stereotypes about older trans women come up, etc etc.

    sex;
    sexual orientation;
    gender identity — or what serano calls “subconscious sex”;
    gender expression
    All independent, albeit related and intertwined, traits of human beings!

    Also, I really hope someone bothers to debunk the idea suggested by the BBC that maybe there are more trans people who regret surgery than trans people who don’t. Even though I think it’s important and valid to discuss re-transition and mistakes and regrets in a way that doesn’t sweep those issues under the carpet (and we have our very own in-house representative at Feministe whose burden it is to constantly explain this stuff, sorry piny…) it’s a scare tactic to claim that there might be an epidemic of regret, and that can be seen clearly if you look at statistics on how many trans surgeries are performed, vs. how many people show up seeking re-transitioning care. Ideally, I don’t think this would matter — personally I’d prefer it if we could all change our gendered characteristics whenever the hell we felt like it — but the spectre of “oh my god, they’re going to change their minds!” seems to be one of the bigger bogeymen related to restricting medical care for trans folks, so bleah.

  14. “If social conditioning creates gender–if those traits are one hundred percent socially conditioned–then why are there trans people?”

    I’m not sure that’s what’s meant by social conditioning. Social conditioning doesn’t create gender, it elevates secondary gender characteristics to primary gender characteristics based on the prevalence (but not universality) of those traits in a specific gender. So you get characteristics like emotions, dress and habits raised to the level of reproductive organs and chromosones.

    I’m sympathetic to Bindel here. She was a dismissive asshole in her previous column, but I think genuinely regrets that. It doesn’t mean her underlying point isn’t valid.

    It seems to me that her concern is the basic definition of gender; that gender is what all these traits come from, not the other way around. Perhaps her real problem is that she has not plainly stated what she believes it is that makes gender, and therefore can’t really engage in the debate properly.

  15. I admit to feeling similar things when my fiance* came out as transgender. I felt very threatened, and angered at how this whole thing did seem to reenforce gender stereotypes and binary gender roles. I was really angered at how he said things like, “I can’t swear so much anymore,” because he’d now have to be more “ladylike,” and things like that. It was infuriating for a short time. I even felt that whatever femininity I had was threatened, because it seemed he wanted to be more “girly” than I was, and I could hardly be described as a “girly girl.” It made me feel like maybe I wasn’t living up to whatever expectations I was supposed to, and because I knew that that wasn’t true, I got very angry.

    But once I educated myself on trans issues more thoroughly and listen to him more, without judgement and forcing myself to calm down a little, I started to understand. It’s not about

    A male raised as a man could never try to break out into a socially-forbidden “feminine” role and end up convinced of the need to transition, because social conditioning would have made that person a socially-acceptable masculine man. If he’s a feminine man, that would have been socially conditioned too.

    It’s something entirely different. For trans people, it’s not about being a man who really wants to be “feminine,” but that’s unacceptable for him as a man, so he just decides to take hormones or have surgery and become a female. It’s not that simple. It’s not about remaining a male and being feminine. It’s about not being a male, period.

    I can definitely see how TG activism may appear to reinforce the view that gender is binary, but it just doesn’t. It’s a matter of feeling that your mind and body are aligned properly. I think the first example of the book How Nature Made Him is perfect. It’s a tragic story, and one that should absolutely prove that gender is not a socialized thing.

    *I use masculine pronouns because my fiance is in the beginning stages of transition and uses them himself, and as he is not presenting as female yet, he is not comfortable with feminine pronouns at the present time.

  16. I’m going to take the unpopular stance and say gender is binary. I think people who don’t believe that tend to perceive gender-identification as something that entails more than sexual identification (i.e. particular personality traits), and to me, that seems very to be a contradictory stance.

    I hear a lot of people complaining of what society deems “feminine” or “masculine”, yet they seem to deny their gender (as related to sexual identity) based on how “feminine” or “masculine” they are.. It’s mindboggling logic.

  17. I tend to put more faith in social conditioning than biological determinations, but I think it’s a much, much more complex process than most tend to imagine. If it were a relatively simple equation of a few known variables at specific times, it would be easy to always get identities congruent with a given social context, but that’s not the case, I think, because human society is insanely multivalenced and multicontextual. I’m talking about much more than sex, sexuality and gender; any variation seems to fit in this, for me. I’m a nonstandard flavor of trans myself, and hold that despite the overt societal messages that I not only should not exist, but cannot exist as I experience myself, there are obviously forces in the society that I encounter that make a person such as myself possible.

    That being said, I think the mechanistic approach to producing a given type of person will always be a doomed enterprise, because of the impossibility of controlling every facet of experience. Even more, I think such an attempt would be immoral, and interpret Bindel and her ilk as advocating unconscionable immorality.

  18. And what of those of us who have been trying to break out for many years, and end up convinced of the need for a revolution in the way in which this fucked up society considers gender?

    Well, what of those of us who grew up different, broke out and became convinced of this need? What you wrote isn’t incompatible with what little light said.

    Anne Fausto-Sterling notes that a medical community that had been grudgingly comfortable with gender diversity became polarized once SRS was developed. In that some aspects of TG activism tends to reinforce the view that gender is binary, I think radical feminist criticisms are valid.

    I think it would be even better if feminism & trans-activism had a natural alliance to oppose medical institutions’ discomfort with gender diversity — which has hurt an awful lot of trans people over many decades. So yeah, I certainly think any “TG activism” that simultaneously stamps on gender diversity (and there is some, just like there’s such thing as misogyny within some feminism) ought to be critiqued. There are some criticisms that ended up getting leveled at all trans people, however.

    I think the debate about the social construction/essentialism of gender ends up being a red herring, in much the same way that the same debate with respect to sexual orientation ends up being a red herring. Whether or not the expression of gender or sexual orientation comes from genetic predisposition, hormonal secretions motivated by a reaction between the physical and social environment in which a person lives and such person’s genes, positive and negative reinforcement of behavior — a person’s sense of identity is not changeable by external means. Period.

    This is well put, and bears repeating, re-reading, and understanding. There’s this attitude floating around that something about trans people is fundamentally incompatible with theories about gender being socially constructed. It’s simply not true. You can respect trans people, trans people’s genders, believe that trans people do in fact exist and have an autonomous understanding of our own experiences and how we’re situated in a gendered world… and, wonder of wonders, still believe that gender is socially constructed. Even that sex is socially interpreted, since although society didn’t make our bodies, it certainly interprets what they mean.

  19. I’m going to take the unpopular stance and say gender is binary.

    Betina, the only reason I will argue with you is the book I mentioned above, not personal experience. Some intersexed people (ie those born with genitalia and/or organs and/or genes from both sexes) say that they do not feel strongly male or female, but a mixture of both. They’re not talking about their gender — they’re talking about the way they experience their bodies as not belonging to one sex or the other.

    Obviously, that’s the most extreme case, but there’s a huge range of different intersex conditions, which makes it very difficult to say categorically that (biological) sex and (social) gender are binary for everyone.

  20. If social conditioning creates gender–if those traits are one hundred percent socially conditioned–then why are there trans people? Either the social conditioning for traits doesn’t actually work–requiring a change of theory–or there are people for whom it doesn’t take/who absorb the “wrong” set of conditioning, for some reason, a reason we’ll handwave away even though it’s apparently significant enough to make a person reject the messages most of society is throwing at them and put their life on the line to do so.

    Hold on, hold on, hold on.
    Maybe I’m misunderstanding or flat-out wrong, but I think that there’s a huge difference between saying “Gender is a socially constructed” and saying “person X was conditioned to be gender A.” The former is a claim about the concept of gender, the later is a claim about a particular person’s gender, which makes them two very different claims, to me.

    When we say that gender is socially constructed, my understanding is that we’re talking about the traits that we mark as “masculine” and “feminine,” aren’t we? That is, there’s nothing inherently masculine or manly about working on cars, except that society has deemed it so. That any particular person likes cars may be from any number of factors. That we’ve decided that liking to work on cars is a masculine trait is socially constructed. Put another way: person A might enjoy wearing a skirt. In our society that’s a feminine trait. That’s socially constructed, though. In another society, skirt-wearing could be a masculine trait. That’s not to say that person A wouldn’t still enjoy wearing skirts even in that other society, it’s to say that the value placed on that activity is a value created by society.

    Or, am I completely wrong, here?

    I’m going to take the unpopular stance and say gender is binary. I think people who don’t believe that tend to perceive gender-identification as something that entails more than sexual identification (i.e. particular personality traits), and to me, that seems very to be a contradictory stance.

    I’m not sure how that’s contradictory. Sexual identification is sexual identification. Gender is geder. What does one have to do with the other? The very fact that one can recognize that “masculine woman” is not a self contradiction suggests that gender is not directly tied to sex.

    And even if you believed that gender is the same thing as sex (i.e. that being male makes one masculine and being woman makes one feminine) what about intersexed people? Where do they fit in the binary? There are more than two sexes, so I’m not sure why gender should be a binary, when, in reality, sex isn’t either.

    I hear a lot of people complaining of what society deems “feminine” or “masculine”, yet they seem to deny their gender (as related to sexual identity) based on how “feminine” or “masculine” they are.. It’s mindboggling logic.

    I’m not really sure what you mean, here.

    I don’t dispute, for example, that people who are born sexed male have, on average, more testosterone than those born sexed female. I do dispute that testosterone levels should have any kind of moral meaning or result in a judgment of superiority or inferiority. There is something innate and biological about the ways that *humans* behave. The gender roles are something that we’ve created.

    Absolutely.

  21. And not to turn the thread into the weirdness of biology rather than the weirdness of society, but there are also semi-identical twins and chimeras. IMO, it makes it even more difficult to say “this is biology” and “this is society,” because we still haven’t figured out everything that exists biologically.

  22. Hold on, hold on, hold on.
    Maybe I’m misunderstanding or flat-out wrong, but I think that there’s a huge difference between saying “Gender is a socially constructed” and saying “person X was conditioned to be gender A.” The former is a claim about the concept of gender, the later is a claim about a particular person’s gender, which makes them two very different claims, to me.

    Yes, absolutely, Roy. I think that was part of my point–that this notion that all gender is a product of social conditioning is a misunderstanding of the idea that gender is socially constructed; the latter, I have no problem with. I think it’s a perfectly sensible way to look at the phenomenon of gender; I think, also, that the “conditioning” version is not a sensible way to apply that theory to people, and I hear them conflated a lot.

    I’m trying to argue that there are more mechanisms in place here, basically. Nature plays a part. Nurture plays a part. The essentialists and the pure-constructionists are both missing something. Gender is shaped by social constructions but which constructions take root seems to be connected to another part of identity, one which is extremely difficult to alter.

  23. CBrachyrhynchos:

    And what of those of us who have been trying to break out for many years, and end up convinced of the need for a revolution in the way in which this fucked up society considers gender?

    In what way does this group not include many, many trans people? I’d include myself, for one, I’d like to think.

  24. Not that this applies to anyone here, but it does drive me nuts sometimes (as a biology enthusiast) that “gender” and “sex” have been conflated when they are actually two different (though often related) things. I’m not sure if this is because of creeping Victorianism (“OMG, I can’t use the word ‘sex’ in front of my students — I’d better say ‘gender’ instead.”) but it drives me nuts and makes conversations about both sex and gender much harder than they should be, because some people say “gender” when they mean “sex” and other people say “sex” when they mean “gender” and everyone gets confused about what everyone else means.

    /etymological soapbox

  25. Hold on, hold on, hold on.
    Maybe I’m misunderstanding or flat-out wrong, but I think that there’s a huge difference between saying “Gender is a socially constructed” and saying “person X was conditioned to be gender A.” The former is a claim about the concept of gender, the later is a claim about a particular person’s gender, which makes them two very different claims, to me.

    When we say that gender is socially constructed, my understanding is that we’re talking about the traits that we mark as “masculine” and “feminine,” aren’t we? That is, there’s nothing inherently masculine or manly about working on cars, except that society has deemed it so. That any particular person likes cars may be from any number of factors. That we’ve decided that liking to work on cars is a masculine trait is socially constructed. Put another way: person A might enjoy wearing a skirt. In our society that’s a feminine trait. That’s socially constructed, though. In another society, skirt-wearing could be a masculine trait. That’s not to say that person A wouldn’t still enjoy wearing skirts even in that other society, it’s to say that the value placed on that activity is a value created by society.

    Or, am I completely wrong, here?

    I think you’re totally right, Roy, but I also think little light might be talking about something completely different. You’re talking about what’s often called “gender expression” — masculinity, femininity, various traits. People often assume that this is why trans people transition — that trans people start as male-assigned people who have feminine traits, or female-assigned people who have masculine traits, and that people transition so that their socially-recognized gender, and possibly their body, matches up with these traits.

    Actually, this isn’t necessarily true, any more than the old stereotype that trans women are all attracted to men and trans men are all attracted to women. There are plenty of femme trans guys out there, and butch trans women too, although there’s also a lot of prejudice hurled at trans people with these gender expressions, from within trans communities as well as from others — for instance assuming that this simply means that these trans folks are “not committed” or just not that good at “being” or “passing as” the other gender. I shouldn’t have to point out how that kind of stuff really does involve stereotyped assumptions about gender roles and traits.

    I don’t know exactly what little light meant, but if I had written something similar I would mean one trait in particular: gender identity, which some people simply don’t believe in. I think a lot of these arguments stem from not being able to explain what gender identity is. People assume that trans people must mean “well, I have feelings and behaviors that I associate with femininity, therefore I must be a woman” or that we must believe “there is something essential about gender, and I know that mine is female,” neither of which is necessarily true. Trans people have been trying to describe the sensation of having a dissonant gender identity to non-trans people for decades, which is where you get clumsy descriptions like “men trapped in women’s bodies” or “I have a female brain” which most trans people will agree don’t make literal sense. Worse still, they lead into these assumptions about essentialism and trans people.

    Julia Serano tried for a slightly different tack — she calls it “subconscious sex” and basically admits that she has no idea whether it’s biological or social or what, but from all available evidence, especially from the lives and experiences and voices of trans people, it’s there, it can be in conflict with your assigned sex and cause a great deal of distress, pain and suffering, and it has resisted attempts to change it through psychiatric intervention. Most non-trans people aren’t aware of it any more than most of us are aware of our appendixes until there’s something “wrong” with them. The overlap with how disability is constructed / ignored is noteworthy here too.

  26. “I always recommend that people who think that gender and sex* identification is 100% socially constructed read John Colapinto’s As Nature Made Him, which is about the aftermath of an experiment to raise a biological boy who had lost his penis in an accident as a girl. It was, needless to say, a complete fiasco.”

    Interestingly, the boy kept trying to pee standing up.

  27. You know – any debate as to whether or why transpeople get surgeries or whatever seems besides the point to me. It’s your body, you do what you want with it.

    I’m pro-choice about most things in general, meaning pro-choice, not just pro-choice I understand or agree with or would do myself.

  28. Julia Serano tried for a slightly different tack — she calls it “subconscious sex” and basically admits that she has no idea whether it’s biological or social or what, but from all available evidence, especially from the lives and experiences and voices of trans people, it’s there, it can be in conflict with your assigned sex and cause a great deal of distress, pain and suffering, and it has resisted attempts to change it through psychiatric intervention. Most non-trans people aren’t aware of it any more than most of us are aware of our appendixes until there’s something “wrong” with them. The overlap with how disability is constructed / ignored is noteworthy here too.

    I’m so incredibly sympathetic to this. Just to head off into a bit of a tangent, fibromyalgia, fifteen or so years ago, was a “wastebasket” diagnosis, something that some doctors observed that was definitely there and definitely significant, but for which they had no real evidence, or laboratory tests, or anything to explain why. So of course a good many people saw that last bit and decided that meant it didn’t exist, found ways to rationalize it away. But then as the research pressed on they found distinct physiological abnormalities (I realize abnormalities is a kind of loaded word to use even remotely in connection to a trans debate and I don’t intend to transfer it over when I get done with this weak analogizing): substance P, certain cytokines, serotonin dysregularity, abnormal (below normal, iirc) blood flow to the thalamus region of the brain, etc. They also started finding physiological distinctions between FM and CFS, the “sister syndrome” which a lot of people thought were essentially the same thing. It’s really amazing to watch the progress, how we go from having this group of people who hurt for no identifiable reason to finding out there’s actually a commonality there, they have the same sort of dysregulation going on in their bodies and even though we couldn’t identify it before and thought there might not even be anything to identify, we can now.

    Obviously again I do NOT want to apply “dysregulation,” “abnormality” etc. to the trans issue, but more to point out that the distinctions in our brains that form the basis for these differences might not be visible to us NOW, but ten or twenty or possible (dog I hope not) a hundred or more years from now we may stumble upon the lenses that allow us to view it. There’s a sort of prejudice not just in the medical community but in human nature in general that if there isn’t evidence for something, that’s evidence that it isn’t, so to speak. Not so. Not so, not so.

    I have no idea what to think on trans issues and I figure I’m better off sitting back and learning from the folks who have experienced things themselves — I appreciate it when people allow me that basic respect so I will give it here. But I wanted to step in with that observation.

  29. Thanks Mmemosyne. I hadn’t thought of that before. I just wonder what they think feeling “female” or “male” entails.. I guess I can’t put myself in their shoes.

    I understand genderqueers perfectly when they say they don’t want any expectations placed on them because of their sex, and I share that feeling (in many instances).. But gender in our society is defined based on physical constitution.. which is fucked up for transpeople, who intuitively don’t connect to their physique. What I see as a positive change is allowing those who don’t identify with their physical sex to be accepted (I can’t speak on the progress of this notion because although I have no issues with accepting that, I always read on the news about the Nth assault against a transperson that doesn’t get taken seriously). Or even intersex people, who don’t feel attached to any sex at all.

    But when you don’t identify with the societal expectations of your gender (as defined by your physical sex, in our society), neither do I. I don’t see how identifying as an alternate gender helps, since you’re just assuming that identifying as female/male actually entails whatever society is expecting of that. And what it expects is that your sexual identification will say more about your personality (even people more accepting of transsexuals think FTMs should be hypermasculine). If anything, on genderqueer, I would be intergender, since.. all there is to me is my physical sex (female) and it doesn’t affect me in any other way. I don’t feel that identifying as female really says anything about me other than my sex is female.

    If I’m being overtly judgmental, please feel free to curse at me/explain to me what’s wrong/argue.

  30. I don’t see how identifying as an alternate gender helps, since you’re just assuming that identifying as female/male actually entails whatever society is expecting of that.

    My comment that’s in mod is about something that drives me nuts: a lot of the time when these issues are discussed, “gender” and “sex” are talked about as though they’re the same thing when they’re actually different (if often related) things. So some intersexed people don’t only say they feel like a different gender (though they sometimes say that as well), they sometimes also say they feel like a different sex, neither male nor female.

  31. (Apologies in advance for the excessive use of TLAs in the following)

    I believe that there are three dimensions here:;

    Physical sex characteristics (PSC): genitalia, breasts, facial hair, hormone production etc;

    Internal sex identity (ISI): the way one feels one’s physical body should be;

    External gender identity (EGI): the gender role expressed according to social expectation;

    The standard situation is for all three to be aligned similarly: a person born with male PSC usually experiences himself as having a body that is supposed to be male, and usually ends up accepting the social markers that go with masculinity (hair styles, activities, etc.) and a person born with female PSC usually feels okay with that, and ends up accepting the social markers.

    Some people are quite happy with the shapes of their bodies (that is, ISI matches PSC) but reject the EGI that goes with the PSC; for whatever reason, they either adopt the binary opposite EGI (or elements thereof), or they seek to find a non-binary external expression of gender. This category includes crossdressers, transvestites, genderqueers and so on and so forth.

    Other people have a situation in which their ISI does not match their PSC. This is the condition of transgendered people. Some transgendered people do seek to adopt very strongly the polarised EGI indicators of their ISI, particularly when they are successful. I could speculate on reasons why, but would rather not (since I am not qualified to do so). Equally, others remain in a more ambiguous EGI expression.

    By now it should be apparent that EGI is not binary, because there can be a sliding scale of social expectation of gender expression, so that one person expresses as “very feminine/masculine” while another person’s expression of EGI can be described as “moderately masculine/feminine”, and still another person could be described as “indeterminate”, or even, “mixed signals” (for example, a PSC male who makes no attempt to disguise his maleness, who also wears a very feminine skirt, would be “mixed signals”; someone who wears a female cut of suit but hasn’t got obvious feminine features could be indeterminate). ISI *is binary, because one generally feels oneself to be either male or female (in terms of one’s “supposed-to-be” physical form), but not both at the same time. As mentioned by others above, PSC is usually binary but there are situations in which other options occur.

    That there is a distinction between EGI and ISI (and that they are caused differently) should be apparent from the fact that not all cross-dressers or transvestites identify as transgendered, and that the reported reasons for the groups’ desires appear to be different – TV/CD people tend to talk about a need or desire to change their appearance or adopt a role, while TG/TS seem to talk more often about a need to change themselves (based on reports and from first-hand evidence). It is simply not reasonable to assert that gender dysphoria is a phenomenon that is generated by social pressures.

    The first flaw in Julie Bindel’s argument seems to me to be an underlying assumption that gender markers (such as, currently, long hair for girls and short hair for boys) automatically promote gendered social roles (such as “loving and caring” versus “analytical and reasoning”), and that TS/TG/TV/CD adoption of gender markers is therefore a tacit adoption also of the artificial binary division of social roles along gendered lines.

    The second flaw is that Ms Bindel appears not to understand the difference between “not a proper girl” (i.e. rejecting the standard EGI for her PSC) and “supposed to be a man” (i.e. her ISI not matching her PSC). While it may be possible that at the time she was a little girl, a misdiagnosis could have been made on the basis of her reported symptoms, I am also aware that SRS is illegal in most countries until a person reaches majority (although recent hormonal therapies to realign sex characteristics have been tried on prepubescent children who feel themselves to be genuinely TS and have been assessed at such, this is a very recent development). I assume from reading the article that at some point before then, Ms Bindel had realised that she was different not because she “should have been born as a boy” but simply because she liked different things – and that she became able to articulate this distinction.

  32. I do realise that.. I even said intersexed people have a valid reason not to identify as anything since they don’t relate sexually to any of both.

    It’s just that I still haven’t seen a valid reason why I should call myself something other than female if I identify sexually with it. I didn’t feel any obligations towards my societal “gender” until I came to know genderqueer.

    Whatever. I can see we will never agree, although we have a common goal.

  33. It’s just that I still haven’t seen a valid reason why I should call myself something other than female if I identify sexually with it. I didn’t feel any obligations towards my societal “gender” until I came to know genderqueer.

    Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that I myself was genderqueer at all: I’m just plain ol’ vanilla hetero biological female (as far as I know ;-).

    It’s more that, the more we discover about the biology, the more we see how wrong the whole notion of a dichotomy that’s solely male/female is. And if the biology is so equivocal, how on earth can anyone (not meaning you) say that something as socially constructed as gender is “naturally” split into man/woman with no other possible options?

    Of course, I’m also someone who can go on for hours about how octopuses buck what we thought we knew about evolution by being both intelligent and short-lived, so YMMV.

  34. Yes, you have changed my mind a bit on the binary part. I just wonder if they feel no preference towards any sex because they’re not given much of a limitation, they know they can “switch back”.

    I just don’t know why extend gender as something different from your sex, because.. honest, gender never said much about a person to me except their sexual identity, and I don’t know why it’s necessary to extend gender to something beyond that – however, ending the dichotomy to the benefit of intersex people (as you said).

    Thanks for your reply and thanks for not turning this into a snark-fest. 🙂

  35. little light: In what way does this group not include many, many trans people? I’d include myself, for one, I’d like to think.

    I didn’t think it was mutually exclusive there. My concern is that there is a real tension between radical feminist theory, which wants to create a society in which “feminine man” is an antique relic of a concept. And trans theory which emphasizes mobility between genders. I don’t think these things directly conflict so much as they are orthogonal to each other.

    And, what Betina says reflects some of my feelings on the matter. I don’t want to identify as anything other than male. I do want to live in a culture that accepts all of the little bits of my experience as within the boundaries of what it is to be a man. As a man, I knit, hack software, bake bread, grow a salt-and-pepper beard, cry at movies and wear skirts. These things are “masculine” because I as a man do them. Radical feminism is compatible with the idea of deconstructing gender roles.

    Where I feel alienated by transpolitics is that it proposes yet another binary/duality around cisgendered which is assumed to be conformist, and transgendered/genderqueer which is assumed to be non-comformist to various degrees.

  36. I think sometimes I want to slap MTFs only because of the rapturous paeans to cosmetics and comments like “Of COURSE I love to wear skirts and makeup, I’m a GIRL! It’s NAAAAATURAL for girls to do that!” and I’m sitting there in pants without a stitch of makeup on like, “Yeah thanks for totally invalidating MY gender identity while you’re at it … ”

    I think that’s part of the traditional radfem antipathy toward transgender folks; they often seem to echo some of the crap that’s straight out of Phyllis Schlafly’s mouth sometimes — although previous commenters have highlighted that, in a world where merely wearing jeans like every OTHER woman can prevent them from getting the surgical intervention they need, it’s the doctors who have determined what’s “proper” for transgender people to evince, and their definition of appropriate female (or male) behavior is often influenced most profoundly by their hyper-girly, helmet-headed trophy wives.

    But honestly, I think gender identity and how it’s evinced are pretty decoupled. Language is also something that humans have a natural, hardwired instinct to acquire, and yet the zillions of ways we evince it are mutually unintelligible.

    In this culture, cosmetics are coded female, so MTFs have a “natural instinct” to wear them, and a “natural talent.” Whatever. There’s other cultures (I’m thinking Wodaabe here) where men wear makeup, and any FTMs in that culture probably feel an equally “natural” and “instinctive” desire to wear cosmetics.

    Some people have a “natural” and “instinctive” desire to identify as a given gender, fine. But they will latch onto whatever behavior their culture tells them is how that gender behaves.

    Hell, I’ve tried to teach people how to say a Welsh double-l sound and had them behave as if I were asking them to bend their elbows backwards. Yet, it’s a totally “natural” behavior, connected to a “hardwired” human instinct — language. But it’s entirely culturally dependent. This is the same way. Raise an FTM child in a culture where men weave, and they will feel a “natural” and “instinctive” talent for weaving,and an equally “natural” thumb-fingered clumsiness for doing anything women do, even if that culture demands that women herd cattle. *shrug*

  37. Where I feel alienated by transpolitics is that it proposes yet another binary/duality around cisgendered which is assumed to be conformist, and transgendered/genderqueer which is assumed to be non-comformist to various degrees.

    I’m not sure this is accurate. Cisgendered is assumed that the internal characteristics/sensations match the external treatment and physicality. In transgendered and genderqueer, this is not necessarily the case. Conformity implies some sort of conscious choices about the impulses and tastes we have, which I’m not convinced is the case.

    I don’t chose to wear the gender and sex of female and woman; I’m just perfectly comfortable with both, despite disagreeing with some of the societal constructions of both. From what my friends and people who have spoken about this have said, my sense is that with transgender and genderqueer this is NOT the case, regardless of their personal characteristics. And form interacting with a perosn who could chose to behave male or behave female, I can’t deny the differences between the two despite the PERSON and her characteristics being exactly the same.

  38. Bindel also frets that had she been sent to see a psychologist who endorsed the idea of sex reassignment as a child, she (as a lesbian) could now be writing as a transman.

    If this kind of stuff really crosses her mind, Ms. Bindel would seem to have some unresolved issues of her own. Why would being a lesbian be the impetus for any kind of change at all? Maybe I’m missing something.

  39. SnowdropExplodes: Some people are quite happy with the shapes of their bodies (that is, ISI matches PSC) but reject the EGI that goes with the PSC; for whatever reason, they either adopt the binary opposite EGI (or elements thereof), or they seek to find a non-binary external expression of gender. This category includes crossdressers, transvestites, genderqueers and so on and so forth.

    Which begs the question, why should any act be considered cross/trans/queer anything?

  40. Raise an FTM child in a culture where men weave, and they will feel a “natural” and “instinctive” talent for weaving,and an equally “natural” thumb-fingered clumsiness for doing anything women do, even if that culture demands that women herd cattle. *shrug*

    And of course, the same is true of your average totally-not-trans male children too, right? If weaving is a male activity, then a lot of male-identified kids, statistically speaking, will absorb and mirror that… which includes young trans kids too. The fact that trans kids often echo “stereotypical” behavior actually makes them really damn average — if you look at them along with peers who identify the same way and are mirroring the same messages. However, since we assume that sex assignment based on genitals is the most significant thing that determines someone’s gender, these kids are extraordinary instead, pathologized, seen as carrying some really significant message about how gender strictures in our society are doing strange things to children etc. When really, they’re no different than the average gender-message-absorbing non-trans kids… disturbingly not different.

    Then there are those of us who are a little more splintered and queer along multiple axes. I was assigned male, but I really could not handle being male-bodied or having to occupy a male gender role, so I

  41. Oops, my last post got cut off! I was going to say, so I got out and found a better position to deal with gender from. But I am more sympathetic to genderqueer than to any particular gender, including when it comes to gender expression… what Snowdrop’s calling EGI.

    Which begs the question, why should any act be considered cross/trans/queer anything?

    Well maybe it wouldn’t be, but we have this pesky transphobic society to deal with, which operates on a gender binary, and has lots of enforcers.

    I think sometimes I want to slap MTFs only because of the rapturous paeans to cosmetics and comments like “Of COURSE I love to wear skirts and makeup, I’m a GIRL! It’s NAAAAATURAL for girls to do that!” and I’m sitting there in pants without a stitch of makeup on like, “Yeah thanks for totally invalidating MY gender identity while you’re at it … ”

    Me too, except I am a MTF. I know you probably didn’t mean to generalize. It’s horrifying especially when the expectation is on you to act like that too. Sometimes I wonder if this is something that has to be dealt with internal to trans communities, but sometimes I think this is just a horrifying neo-adolescent phase that a lot of people have to go through, just like when those of us who grew up in the 80s wore stonewashed jeans. But when people criticize trans women like Christine Daniels, the recently out sportswriter for the LA Times, for saying stuff like this:

    “There were feminists who weighed in [online] and said, “You’re paying too much attention to clothes and makeup.” But it’s like honey, I’ve waited all my life for this.”

    On one hand that’s cringeworthy and sounds like she is associating clothes & makeup with “being a woman.” On the other hand, that’s not necessarily the case, she’s been denied the chance to express her gender the way she wants to, because she was following strict social rules based on her assignment at birth. So I feel a little sympathetic — as I think most of us could, if we imagine having to wear something that REALLY made us uncomfortable, gender-wise, for years on end.

  42. Me too, except I am a MTF. I know you probably didn’t mean to generalize.

    No — I think it’s just that you hear that the loudest when you’ve been told your entire life in a million ways that you’re not really female because you’re enormously fucking good at math and don’t wear makeup, or whatever. And like I said, a lot of times transpeople have had to adhere to standards developed by rich white men with botoxed trophy wives, plus there’s probably a zillion trans voices on this, but the media focuses on and amplifies the ones that they jduge would piss off feminists the most.

  43. Oh BTW — I’ve also met plenty of born women I’ve wanted to slap over this :-), so it’s certainly not an invalidation of anyone’s gender anyway to say that I disagree with them.

  44. And of course, the same is true of your average totally-not-trans male children too, right? If weaving is a male activity, then a lot of male-identified kids, statistically speaking, will absorb and mirror that… which includes young trans kids too.

    Yup. Makes sense to me. It’s just that in this culture, we can’t seem to separate “gender identity” from the arbitrary way it’s evinced in this one particular culture.

    Again, it’s like language — sure, we have a natural, hardwired desire to do a certain thing, but the shape it takes can be very, very different from one culture to another. Some similarities, but the differences can render us mutually unintelligible. Maleness and femaleness might be hardwired, but the association of one with trucks and one with makeup isn’t.

  45. Basically, what I see here are common aspects. You are fine with being sexually female, but are sympathetic to genderqueer because it doesn’t imply any gender-role obligations. I am fine also with being sexually female, but I don’t think that identifying as a female as whole should imply any obligations.

    We live in a society in which sexual role = gender role. I don’t see how it’s repressive. Society will call you female based on your physical constitution, and the more accepting individuals will call you female based on your sexual identity (and that’s what I support anyway). Where it gets fucked up is when they expect you to behave a certain way because of that sexual identity – as exemplified by the MTF you speak of.

    Genderqueer seems so conformist in that aspect.. even though they KNOW that our gender system is based on sexual identity, they want to separate gender from sex and not be identified based on their sex. Why? What do you think being sexually female or male should entail? Why should you resort to labeling yourself, putting your traits in a masculine-to-feminine spectrum that is based on patriarchal stereotypes? Why not kill these stereotypes instead, and say “I’m female, I wear combat boots/short hair/band shirts, and guess what, there’s no duality or conflict in that”.

  46. I just don’t know why extend gender as something different from your sex, because.. honest, gender never said much about a person to me except their sexual identity, and I don’t know why it’s necessary to extend gender to something beyond that – however, ending the dichotomy to the benefit of intersex people (as you said).

    Rent Dress to Kill or, hell, any Eddie Izzard stand-up show. He talks about that a bit, when he’s not talking about how weird it is that we think that putting a flag somewhere means that we own it and “Cake … or death?”.

    Sorry, but I can’t pass up any opportunity to make people watch Eddie Izzard. 🙂

  47. CBrachyrhynchos:

    Which begs the question, why should any act be considered cross/trans/queer anything?

    I never said it should be. I simply offered a description of things “as they are”, to explain why Bindel was unsound in her reasoning.

    The question is actually better phrased, “why should there be gender indicators?” and that reduces back to, “why should there be gender at all?”

    It is also worth pointing out that “should” implies some form of imperative about it. Maybe once the patriarchal imperative (which is the “should” that operates now) has been removed, and there is no “should” involved in gender, society as a whole will tend to stick to gendered patterns (albeit now liberated from the prescriptive enforcement of those patterns) and that would mean that society as whole would choose to maintain conditions that would make terms like transvestite and cross-dresser still appropriate. Equally, society might discard all gender distinctions, and that would make those terms obsolete.

    The question is equally possible, “why shouldn’t any act be considered cross/trans/queer anything?” But the important thing is not that there is an answer to either question, but that a world can be imagined in which gender (the social display) no longer has meaning (and therefore, there is no such thing as an indicator of gender). That means that, if humanity chooses that path, it is possible to take it. Personally, I’m not so much in favour of eradicasting gender – I prefer gender fluidity, so that today I can be male, tomorrow I can be female, and the day after I can be some gender that hasn’t got a name yet – after all, if 2 genders make life (and loving) more interesting, how much more so with 3, 4, 57 genders?

  48. Basically, what I see here are common aspects. You are fine with being sexually female, but are sympathetic to genderqueer because it doesn’t imply any gender-role obligations. I am fine also with being sexually female, but I don’t think that identifying as a female as whole should imply any obligations.

    Yeah, I can see your point. I mean, like you said, I’m sympathetic to genderqueer because I can definitely understand the need to escape gender roles and the way so many social interactions are forced through the lens of gender whether we like it or not. But I’m OK identifying as female because of what you said — we can make our own version of “female” and it can involve whatever we want. However, I have to admit that this might be partly because I do feel more aligned with the whole ball of yarn, good bad and ugly, of “female” than I do with the “male” one.

    I know some genderqueer people who feel extremely alienated by the whole thing and don’t want to be defined by their bodily sex characteristics at all, don’t want to have anything to do with genders that are based on that, and I can understand that. It’s hard to just say “well I’ll be female — but it’ll have absolutely nothing to do with anything that came before or anything that the word “female” refers to in this culture.” I don’t think I am capable of just completely splitting a signifier off from what’s signified like that, plus I have to deal with thousands of other people and we all have some level of indoctrination in what those words mean.

    So it kind of does make sense to me that some people would want to create their own new words, pronouns, ways of looking at gender, instead of just trying to “reform” the traditional ones that have so much baggage. Isn’t there room for both approaches? I tend to think diversity in how we deal with gender — an oppressive system — is incredibly valuable. Orthodoxy is weakness, and there is no one-size-fits-all solution. Plus, I’ve never heard a genderqueer person insisting that everyone who fails to conform to gender standards and roles ought to identify as “genderqueer” so I don’t see why the reverse ought to be true either; there’s no reason genderqueer folks can’t be just as feminist and identified with people who are the targets of the oppressive gender system (which includes an awful lot of genderqueer people).

    Genderqueer seems so conformist in that aspect.. even though they KNOW that our gender system is based on sexual identity, they want to separate gender from sex and not be identified based on their sex. Why?

    I don’t see why it’s conformist to resist the idea that your sex = your gender?

  49. Personally, I’m not so much in favour of eradicasting gender – I prefer gender fluidity, so that today I can be male, tomorrow I can be female, and the day after I can be some gender that hasn’t got a name yet – after all, if 2 genders make life (and loving) more interesting, how much more so with 3, 4, 57 genders?

    The question that always occurs to me is… hwo much of “more interesting” is tied into the fact that gender is a system of power imbalances that people have various strategies for dealing with, negotiating, resisting? I mean, if we did eradicate hierarchies, power inequities, oppression on the basis of gender, and these differences were not really more significant than deciding whether to wear a blue scarf or a red scarf… would that fluidity be boring? Or in other words, how much of the attraction of fluidity lies in the fact that you’re not supposed to be fluid?

  50. I just don’t understand how your female sex being used as your gender would mean anything beyond.. I have girl parts and I feel comfortable with that/I have boy parts but don’t relate to that.

    I’ve always rejected the notion of “masculinity” and “femininity”, so genderqueer doesn’t seem to fit with a liberation of stereotypes.

    Whatever. If the revolution comes I’ll just be intergender and let everyone else debate to exhaustion in their heads if they’re more butch or femme. Then everyone’s happy 😉

  51. Sometimes it seems like trans women’s gender expression is judged by more exacting standards than genetic women’s. The latter’s identification as women is usually not challenged, even when they’re short-haired and pants-wearing without makeup. They may be accused of not looking feminine enough, but their womanhood is generally not in question, no need to justify or establish the simple fact that they’re women.

    But someone will always find a reason in a trans woman’s gender expression to judge her as not really a woman. If her presentation is too feminine, she’s accused of buying into an oppressive patriarchal gender definition, of trying too hard to be female, she has only a superficial impression of what womanhood is all about, therefore she can’t be taken seriously. If her presentation is too unfeminine, she’s accused of not trying hard enough, therefore she isn’t serious. No matter what she does or doesn’t do, someone will bust her on it.

    And then sometimes I get the impression it’s never OK for either sort of woman to actually enjoy wearing skirts, makeup, etc. because all such traits traditionally assigned to feminine gender expression are products of patriarchal oppression.

    The transsexual community itself includes many critics of conventional gender assumptions like Julia Serano, many women who shun makeup and refuse to be seen in anything but jeans, t-shirts, and sneakers–who resent the stereotyping of their kind as obsessed with conventional markers of femininity, who insist that such superficial presentations have nothing to do with their inner gender identity. And to prove it they shun such markers. Any transsexual woman who does wear skirts and makeup is therefore perceived as buying into the stereotypes pushed by the patriarchal medical/psych establishment, and judged by her peers as not genuinely transsexual, even shunned. It’s hinted she’s nothing more than a drag queen or crossdresser, which is anathema to real transsexuals who of course wear pants and no makeup. Because nothing is worse to a transsexual woman than being taken for a “man in a dress.” Therefore away with dresses.

    Woe betide any woman who is really transsexual but simply happens to like dressing up pretty. Doing so automatically puts her in a lower class in the transsexual hierarchy. Genetic women are always subject to criticism for being either too feminine or too masculine, though to some extent they can simply be themselves and wear skirts and makeup as they please–or not. But when one is trans, simply being oneself is rarely a simple matter articulating one’s identity in society. Her sense of her own self is liable to be picked apart no matter what she does.

    The larger problem for all of us, men and women, transgender and cisgender alike, is the constant barrage of messages that you’re too fat or too skinny or too tall or too short or too masculine or too feminine or too this or not enough that–whatever! Whoever you are, in any number of ways you’ll be told to feel inadequate every time you go out or turn on the TV. Trans people just have to be confronted by such messages more harshly.

  52. …a radical feminist and journalist, who [is] trying to persuade medics and trans people that sex change surgery is unnecessary mutilation.

    Bindel expounds upon her views in an an op-ed in the Guardian, where she explains that the acceptance of transsexuality “arises from the strong stereotyping of girls and boys into strict gender roles.”

    then why do i now break these alleged “strict gender roles” now that i’ve transitioned, and why did i break these alleged “strict gender roles” before i transitioned? the “gender role theory” doesn’t hold up, because all trans people don’t adhere to them, either pre or post transition. like the population at large, some people follow gender roles, and some do not.

    and if it’s “unnecessary”, why do i feel so much better now that i’ve transitioned?

    for the record, i reject most of the “gender identity theory” along with the “radical feminist theory” when it comes to my life, my body, and the gender roles i follow and don’t follow. i think it more prudent to examine why these so called “radical feminists” have such a problem with what cosmetic surgery i choose to have, and what sex i choose to put on my legal identification. it wouldn’t be such a problem, i think, if it were they who weren’t adhering to “strict gender roles”.

  53. Betina said:

    I just don’t understand how your female sex being used as your gender would mean anything beyond.. I have girl parts and I feel comfortable with that/I have boy parts but don’t relate to that.

    To me, that reads as an incredibly privileged statement, that because you experience no disconnect between your sex being used as the basis for your assigned gender you assume that is/should be the norm. This is why so many trans people ask to be listened to, rather than talked at. There is no hegemonic trans experience, no uniform trans agenda. If nothing else, intra-trans thrashes should seem a bit too familiar to those who’ve experienced intra-feminist fighting.

    I also think you misunderstand genderqueer and gender variance. Definitionally, it does not *require* cross gender traits or behavior, but that bodies and the traits they should possess have no normative imperative between them. The confusion may arise in language, in having to talk about concepts from within existing frameworks where “feminine” and “masculine” are shorthand concepts used on a provisional basis.

  54. Oh, fucking hell, not again. I consider myself to be strongly in favour of feminism, and familiar with the theory. I’m also a transman. I’m sick to death of being told the two aren’t compatible. (Especially that damn assumption that all transpeople fancy people of the same biological sex, and hence are just homosexuals who haven’t properly come to terms with it.)

    SnowdropExplodes pretty much outlined my views on the causes of transgenderism, which saves me the trouble of explaining it. Gender roles are an outward expression of an inner feeling. I feel way more comfortable in a suit than a dress, because society deems suits to be masculine and dresses to be feminine. If all the men around me wore dresses at formal occasions, I’d probably feel happier in a dress too.
    In my experience, some MTFs do go a tad over-the-top in their attempts to be seen as female. It’s probably a case of overcompensation; not having been brought up as the right gender, it takes a while to get the hang of what you’re ‘supposed’ to do, especially if you’re too nervous about just being yourself. People are always looking for the slightest excuse to ‘prove’ you’re in fact the gender you were born in, and so one can get a bit nervy about making sure you never slip up, especially pre-transition. That’s my theory, anyway.

    I’m all for the death of gender stereotypes, and fucking with the gender binary. Having tried to live up to expectations of first a woman and then a man, I know that both of them are unfairly constricted roles, and the majority of people have both ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ elements to their personality.
    But even in a hypothetical utopia, where gender roles are done away with and sex is seen as no bigger a deal than eye colour, I think there’ll still be transsexual people. It’s a medical condition, not a case of misidentification or society forcing you into a role. Jeez, if it were all a case of psychiatrists encouraging poor bewildered homosexuals to have SRS against their will, then why would it be more socially acceptable to be queer than transgendered?

  55. Holly: Well maybe it wouldn’t be, but we have this pesky transphobic society to deal with, which operates on a gender binary, and has lots of enforcers.

    It seems to me the obvious solution is to attack those enforcers of EGI, not to say that people who don’t conform to the traditional EGI occupy some third space along some constructed spectrum.

    SnowdropExplodes: I never said it should be. I simply offered a description of things “as they are”, to explain why Bindel was unsound in her reasoning.

    Now, this is where I think her reasoning is quite sound. The tendency to label non-conforming gender behavior as cross/trans something hinders those people who seek to undermine and deconstruct EGI. By claiming that gender non-conformists are “queersomething” or “transsomething” you’ve created a safe space for the gatekeepers of gender to say we are not “real men/women”. (And of course, there is another form of gender non-conformity as exhibited by hyper-masculine leathermen.)

    Holly: Isn’t there room for both approaches?

    Certainly, however room for both approaches does not mean the absence of tensions and philosphical conflicts that shou

  56. be discussed. What I’m trying to relate is the reasons why I don’t feel that “genderqueer” was a good approach for dealing with my gender role dysphoria.

  57. I’m not at all clear from the article whether or not Bindel identifies as a radfem or if radical is just the adjective chosen by the writer

    Julie self-identifies as a radical feminist. Whilst she and I part company over this particular issue, she has a long and admirable track record of feminist activism, often on behalf of the most villified and vulnerable groups of women.

  58. Spatterdash: I consider myself to be strongly in favour of feminism, and familiar with the theory. I’m also a transman. I’m sick to death of being told the two aren’t compatible. (Especially that damn assumption that all transpeople fancy people of the same biological sex, and hence are just homosexuals who haven’t properly come to terms with it.)

    Hells yeah! I’m pretty masculine. I’m also a transsexual woman. Oh, and I’m a lesbian. I’m not exactly the only trans woman on Earth to be a dykie tomboy. Oh.. and there are also lots of trans men who are sissy fags.

    Most of what Bindel said during the debate, and what many “anti-trans feminists” say is based on the denial of these people’s existence. It’s a theory that was made on erroneous assumptions, and defended in the face of massive evidence to the contrary.

    And for the record, I too am a feminist.

  59. This is a conversation that interests me because I am intersexed. First I should clarify what that means. A couple people have used the term wrongly. Intersex is a medical “condition” where you have physical characteristics of both sexes….like I was born with xy chromosomes, internal male gonads, but externally had a vagina, developed breasts, “look” completely female. My condition is called CAIS (complete androgen insensitivity syndrome), but there are many others. My body doesn’t recognize or respond to androgens. I have always essentially identified as female, but at the same time I know that I am not your typical female. My experience has taught me that not even a person’s sex is always easily definable, so why would their gender be? The fact that Bindel is a lesbian and says the things she says floors me. We don’t know what it is that makes a woman attracted to a woman in the same way we don’t know what it is that makes someone with a penis feel like a female. The brain and the body are complex. Gays deserve equality, trans people deserve equality, intersex people deserve equality, etc. Everyone is too wrapped up in their own agenda to see clearly.

  60. Holly, I’m a sadomasochist with a strong enjoyment of power dynamics (i.e. I like both to be the dominant partner, and sometimes to be the submissive partner). If my gender thing was about power, I’d know about it! (And, incidentally, if my power thing was about gender, I’d know that, too). Without retelling the entire 20 years of my sexual self-discovery, I couldn’t explain to you how come I know all that for sure, but suffice to say, the two are independent variables at least as far as my sexuality is concerned.

    It might be that the gender thing is about the supposed character trait associations with certain types of imagery or indicators, but I think with fluid gender, those signals of “I am strong”, “I am fluffy”, “I am energetic” etc. would still be just as important as they are now. it’s just that we wouldn’t necessarily group them together into a binary gender-coded system, but a new system (possibly multi-gendered). And that would work for me.

  61. CBrachyrhynchos:

    “I never said it should be. I simply offered a description of things ‘as they are’, to explain why Bindel was unsound in her reasoning.”

    Now, this is where I think her reasoning is quite sound. The tendency to label non-conforming gender behavior as cross/trans something hinders those people who seek to undermine and deconstruct EGI. By claiming that gender non-conformists are “queersomething” or “transsomething” you’ve created a safe space for the gatekeepers of gender to say we are not “real men/women”. (And of course, there is another form of gender non-conformity as exhibited by hyper-masculine leathermen.)

    No, you’ve fallen into the same trap as Bindel does. You’re conflating Internal Sex Identity with External Gender Identity. For the record, “transvestite” is strictly speaking just “cross-dresser” in a fancy language (on a linguistics level) so for ease of use, I’ll use “trans” gor transgendered people and CD for people who crossdress (or identify as transvestite), so we don’t get the different “trans-” terms confused.

    Now, Bindel assumes that transgendered people are simply displaying a more extreme attempt to adopt an external gender identity than CDs are, but that the causes are the same. I believe I have argued clearly that I believe that CD could very quickly lose any meaningful identity if and when gender identity becomes sufficiently blurred or meaningless in society as a whole (that is, when the social and economic gendered stereotypes are completely erased) – in other words, CD (and genderqueer, and all the rest of it) would have nothing to cross or to rebel against. The whole world would already be genderqueer (by reference to our current standards and terms), and it would be rare to find someone who fit our current standards of “masculine” or “feminine”. Since personal choice of appearance and profession would be completely free, a time-traveller from our time would mostly see a confusing mishmash of signals of gender.

    None of which changes the fact that, at the moment, we have binary gender, and we have people who choose for whatever reason to place themselves outside of the two gendered identities but “in the middle”. Having a name for that group in the middle does not preclude changing the perceptions of the other two groups.

    A transgendered person is not making the same statement as the cross-dresser. If there were no gendered expectations, then the transgendered person would still be dissatisfied with his or her body and seek to realign it with his or her self-perceived sex. While the transgendered person would not, in the new world, have any emotional or social need to adopt a gender-conformist approach to external gender indicators (a debate about which we have seen unfold on this thread), he or she would continue with the transition from male physical sex to female, or vice versa.

    It is possible that a non-gendered, or multi-gendered, world would be less conflicting for a transgendered person to occupy without transitioning physically, but I do not think that it would make the need any different.

  62. Argh, please please please, can we not automatically conflate transgendered with transsexual? It’s not a one to one mapping, despite the overlap. All transgendered people do not necessarily have issues with their sex/genitals/bodies.

  63. SnowdropExplodes: No, you’ve fallen into the same trap as Bindel does. You’re conflating Internal Sex Identity with External Gender Identity.

    If I was going to talk about Internal Sex Identity, I would say so, explicitly.

    So no, I’m not conflating ISI with EGI. I’m pointing out that there is a tension between reconstructing EGI and creating a new genderqueer EGI.

    And most of your argument depends on asserting distinctions and definitions that are not necessarily true. My sense of Bornstein and others I’ve read is that “transgender” has been broadly defined as expansive to include not only ISI but EGI as well. If Bindel is at fault for conflating ISI and EGI, at least some of the problem lies with the fact that transgender politics and writers do so as well.

    So you have transgender tied with gender as performance “The most widely accepted definition is that transgender includes everything not covered by our culture’s narrow terms “man” and “woman”. A partial list of persons who might include themselves in such a definition includes transsexuals (pre, post, and no-op); transvestites; crossdressers; persons with ambiguous genitalia; persons who have chosen to perform ambiguous social genders; and persons who have chosen to perform no gender at all. (source emphasis added).

    Or “Transgender (TG): Originally, this word meant (1) what are also known as full-time cross-dressers or nonsurgical transsexuals, people who live and work in the [other] (of their physical anatomical) [sex], continuously and for always. Now it also means (2) the group of all people who are inclined to cross the gender line, including transsexuals, cross-dressers, and gender benders together. This is the main way the word is used today, and is referred to as the “umbrella definition as it covers everyone. A few [people] use the word transgender as (3) a synonym for transsexual.” (source emphasis added)

    So from where I sit Bindel’s impression that transgender seeks to appropriate her non-conforming behavior certainly seems to be reasonable, because the transgendered community defines its self as inclusive of “gender bending.”

  64. SnowdropExplodes: No, you’ve fallen into the same trap as Bindel does. You’re conflating Internal Sex Identity with External Gender Identity. For the record, “transvestite” is strictly speaking just “cross-dresser” in a fancy language (on a linguistics level) so for ease of use, I’ll use “trans” gor transgendered people and CD for people who crossdress (or identify as transvestite), so we don’t get the different “trans-” terms confused.

    No I’m not. If I was talking about ISI, I would say so explicitly and boldly. And secondly, your choice to redefine terms willy-nilly here is atypical. While there is no single definition of transgenered, most of the ones I’ve seen are so broad as to include just about all form of atypcial gender presentation: (See here for an example.) Why should Bindel be blamed for getting the impression that her childhood behaviors would be considered transgendered, when transgender has been defined in such a way as to include “gender benders?” If you want for “transgender” to apply to only ISI, sorry, that horse left the barn over a decade ago.

    None of which changes the fact that, at the moment, we have binary gender, and we have people who choose for whatever reason to place themselves outside of the two gendered identities but “in the middle”. Having a name for that group in the middle does not preclude changing the perceptions of the other two groups.

    I think it does when it promotes the view that those of us who do not fully conform to the traditional EGI are “in between.” And for that matter, the notion of “in the middle” strikes me as a big problem.

  65. To me, that reads as an incredibly privileged statement, that because you experience no disconnect between your sex being used as the basis for your assigned gender you assume that is/should be the norm.

    I know TG people probably get a lot of crap for not fitting into their “gender roles”, and I’m right with them in deconstructing those roles (seriously). You see, the problem is, I don’t know why there should be a “disconnect”, i.e. a conflict between certain behavior and your sex (if it was to be used to define your gender). Even if you’re a butch MTF, you’re still a female regardless. Society will tell you that you being female implies a certain string of behavior (exemplified by the transwomen who claim they looove make-up because they’re female).. My goal within feminism had always been dismissing those expectations coming with a sexual identification as female. Genderqueer tells me that this identification, if used as gender, is somehow constricting or limits my choices.. which is a plausible explanation if we were to take our societal expectations seriously. However, GQ just seems to take those expectations as a default and say you should identify as something else if you don’t fit in, instead of deconstructing the meaning that female has taken.

  66. @ Shannon in 69:

    My take is that transgender is specifically about gender, about not being comfortable with the range of options presented and wanting something else for oneself. ZB, if one is assigned one sex at birth, and with that comes a gender assignment from within which no point of congruence or comfort can be found. Note, please that this discomfort can, but does not necessarily, extend to beyond the assigned gender and include the limited ranges of binary gender itself. Transsexual, to me, is about not being congruent or comfortable with one’s sex, and is generally taken to mean ‘person from morphological group Y desiring/moving towards membership in in morphological group Z’. Again, from my understanding/perspective, it is possible to be both transgender and transsexual, transgender but not transsexual, and transsexual but not transgender (though I have not encountered anyone from this group, it certainly seems possible), or neither transgender nor transsexual. There are likely many trans people who disagree with my definitions (just as I agree with theirs), but that’s my take.

  67. Why should Bindel be blamed for getting the impression that her childhood behaviors would be considered transgendered, when transgender has been defined in such a way as to include “gender benders?”

    Because she’s talking about being coerced in sex reassignment surgery. This is well beyond being labeled in a certain way for transgressions of normative gender roles.

  68. @ Betina in 71

    Are you saying that ideally, there would be no gender expectations against which to resist because there would be no gender expectations based upon sex? If so, I agree with your ideal, but this is not the place we currently find ourselves (or in which I and others do not find themselves; I shouldn’t speak for you). There are gender expectations and policing based upon sex, and different people have to come to terms with it as they can. It’s about survival before theory, but that’s not to say one can’t identify as something other than ‘woman’ or ‘man’ and still work towards a society in which gender expectations are not linked to sex. To suggest that the gender variant are working contrary to that goal by their very identities is akin to saying that since ideally there would be no sex based discrimination there would be no need for feminism, and anyone who currently identifies as feminist is working against this ideal.

  69. Differne tterms get used in different ways by different people – too often in debates, I have seen people jumped on for using the “wrong” terms because they’ve been understood differently.

    Alright, I meant transsexual rather than transgender. Mea culpa. The terms do get confused by non-expert sources (of which I am certainly one, despite my avid reading and first-hand evidence on the subject).

    Gender is not an easy topic to discuss, and I suspect that that is a lot of the reason why people debate it at such length.

    It struck me today that there are very few supposedly gendered characteristics that can clearly be seen as binary – for example, if hairstyle, clothing, use of cosmetics, etc are the defining characteristics of gender, then a punk is a different gender from a new romantic.

    So, to be quite frank, I’m not sure I know for certain what constitutes gender. I can certainly say whether I think a person is male-gendered or female-gendered, and even why I think that, but from an analytical point of view, I am not sure that I can break it down to say that gender is composed of x, y, z in terms of the ways people express themselves. In terms of gendered social, economic and political roles, it is much easier, and also much easier to challenge those roles. But these days, it is a lot rarer for anyone to ascribe trans-this or cross-that to a woman wearing a trouser-suit in a high-powered executive role, for example, or to a man working as a nurse (of course, there have been homophobic/transphobic hate-crimes perpetrated against male nurses, so those attitudes do persist in some areas). but gender as a whole is a lot harder to analyse and break down.

    I am sure a lot of people think they have the answers, no doubt many of them will read this and respond, trying to explain to me where I’ve been going wrong.

    I just come back to the base statement that one’s role in life and expected behaviours should not be predetermined by the external sex characteristics that one presents at birth.

  70. Snowdrop Explodes:

    I just come back to the base statement that one’s role in life and expected behaviours should not be predetermined by the external sex characteristics that one presents at birth.

    I wholeheartedly agree with that, and wish more did.

  71. I’m somewhat isolated in my notions and that gets confused with privilege sometimes (or, hell, it may even be product of that) – then I have to turn to the outside world and see they still live in the 19th century in their notions of gender roles. Thanks for your input, I had to discuss this somewhere.

  72. I think sometimes I want to slap MTFs only because of the rapturous paeans to cosmetics and comments like “Of COURSE I love to wear skirts and makeup, I’m a GIRL! It’s NAAAAATURAL for girls to do that!”

    Way to go, Janis…generalize MTFs and lump us all together. Sure, some are stereotypically feminine, but most are not. See eastsidekate’s comment #65, for example. How many trans women do you actually know? And I find it curious that you’ve got nothing to say about sexist, misogynist trans men – a few do exist.

    I’m femme in some ways, but I don’t wear makeup. And I don’t spout rapturous paeans to makeup or clothes or any other kind of external marker. Keep in mind these things:

    (1) When trans people first transition, it is like a second adolescence, a chance to express those things that you suppressed for so many years. Meet those same people 5 or 10 years later, and I think you’ll see that many have toned down.

    (2) Many trans people were *forced* to hew to the most extreme gender stereotypes by the medical people (usually men) who acted as the “gatekeepers”; said “gatekeepers” would question the “commitment to the process” of a trans woman who dared to wear jeans instead of a skirt to their therapy appointment. Its funny how trans women are blamed for this, when they were *forced* to follow the stereotypes by the *same patriarchy* that rammed those stereotypes down the throats of cisgender women.

    And, there is something called beauty. Is it possible that a person would want to enhance their beauty? What is wrong with that, and why is that automatically considered “buying into patriarchy”? I dress and present for myself, not for men.

    What I’d like to see is the idea of beauty divorced from gender or sex – that anybody, of any gender or physical sex, can get into their own beauty, or not, without judgement.

    And, to Julie Bindel and CBrachyrhynchos – I have a question – if gender identity (in the way that Julia Serano describes it as subconscious sexual identity) is so totally 100% a social construct, then why, after having been harassed, spit upon, and beaten for 7 years in high school, then having spent 25 years attempting to live as male, did I transition? Would not said abuse have socialized me to being completely, totally male? Why did I refuse to accept a male identity and behavior in the face of that abuse? Because I’m perverse? Sick? Fucked up?

  73. Personally, I’m still on the fence about how I feel about sexual-reassignment surgery and some of nature/nurture ideas and all that. But I think our role as feminists implores us to be supportive of trans people, even if we admittedly don’t understand all of the issues. (P.S. I’m not trying to imply that all trans people want to have a sex-change. Just wanted to make that clear.) I will never know what it feel like to want to change my physical sex, so I can never fully empathize. But I will always try and continue educating myself and standing up for the rights of trans people.

  74. And, there is something called beauty. Is it possible that a person would want to enhance their beauty?

    Sure. But realize that here you’re making the same arguments as plenty of non-transwomen to shut down discussion of how the patriarchy affects women and their perception of what is ‘beautiful’ and ‘female’. (I’m not disagreeing with the rest of your post.)

  75. mythago, yes, you’re right. I guess I was trying to oppose the “she wears lipstick, she is a tool of the patriarchy and destroyer of feminism!!!” trope I hear from some radfems – which they seem to throw in double-doses at trans women. The other point I was trying to make – there are femmes of every gender.

    I guess that Julia Serano, in her recent book (“Whipping Girl”), does a better job of attacking the demonization of femininity than I do.

  76. CBrachyrhynchos: Or “Transgender (TG): Originally, this word meant (1) what are also known as full-time cross-dressers or nonsurgical transsexuals, people who live and work in the [other] (of their physical anatomical) [sex], continuously and for always.
    Curiously, the term “transgender” was coined by Virginia Prince (who at the time identified as a crossdresser) as a way of distiguishing straight males from transsexual people, which (at the time) she viewed as disgusting, dangerous perverts. Tri-Ess, a crossdressers’ group that she founded banned transsexual women and anyone attracted to men as a way to make it non-threatening, something that pillars of the community who happened to wear dresses could go to, without their wives worrying.

    As for the current usage, it’s not hard to find people that view transsexual people as “extreme” cross dressers, who let their attraction to femininity get out of control. While it is true that many transsexual women initially identify as cross dressers while coming to terms with themselves, it’s really a different phenomena altogether. It’s related in that it involves gender and identity, but they’re very different identities.

    Not only does Bindel equate transgenderism with transsexualism, but she also equates transsexuality with sex reasssignment surgery– essentially arguing against surgery as an integral part of a campaign to keep people who were raised as boys from living as women. From my vantage point as a transsexual woman, this is truly a bizarre lumping together of multiple phenomena. (And as mentioned before, she further assumes that all trans men are masculine, all trans women are feminine, and all transsexual people are straight, or in her words, homosexual).

    I guess all of those are likely enough mistakes for a cissexual person to make, but she’s been corrected by transsexual women over and over again. She doesn’t listen, because she doesn’t want to reassess her views. IMO this is maddening bigotry.

  77. RachelPhilPa: And, to Julie Bindel and CBrachyrhynchos – I have a question – if gender identity (in the way that Julia Serano describes it as subconscious sexual identity) is so totally 100% a social construct, then why, after having been harassed, spit upon, and beaten for 7 years in high school, then having spent 25 years attempting to live as male, did I transition? Would not said abuse have socialized me to being completely, totally male? Why did I refuse to accept a male identity and behavior in the face of that abuse? Because I’m perverse? Sick? Fucked up?

    I don’t know why I’m being lumped in here because I’m pretty much on record as saying that the nature vs. nurture debate is complete bullshit. If you want to attack the idea that gender identity is 100% a social construct, I think you should find someone who advocates that position rather than attributing that position to anyone who appears to be in disagreement.

    If you are looking for a serious question to your answers, and not just engaged in rhetorical tom-foolery, I’d say that the model I suspect is the closest to the truth and is most likely to have strong scientific support is Fausto-Sterling’s systems approach. Her model proposes that human development involves complex feedback systems between genetics, epigenetics, physical structures, cultural environments, local environments and behavior.

    And one of the reasons I really hate nature/nurture debates is that I think it doesn’t matter. Everyone should have the ability to define and redefine their gender according to their personal needs. Everyone should free from fear that they will be targeted for discrimination, violence, harassment, and abuse because of their gender, sexuality, and sexual identity. (And if you are assuming that I’ve not been beaten, abused, harassed, and sexually assaulted by people who didn’t consider me a “real man” you are badly mistaken.) I’m here, I’m queer, get used to it. No amount of navel gazing as to why I am what I ams changes that political reality.

    eastsidekate: While it is true that many transsexual women initially identify as cross dressers while coming to terms with themselves, it’s really a different phenomena altogether. It’s related in that it involves gender and identity, but they’re very different identities.

    Well, that’s a big problem that I think is driving some of the misconceptions in this discussion. Yes, TS is a very different thing from TG and GQ. I’ve been trying to focus my criticisms not on transexual experience, but on the ways in which the ever-broader definition of TG and the trans/cis false dichotomy conflicts with deconstructing/expanding gender roles.

  78. To describe what I’m talking about here. When I do an atypical behavior such as wearing a skirt, when I argue for the idea that skirt-wearing should be included into the vast library of “things men do.” I have to argue against the interpretation that I’m cross-dressing, a transvestite, genderqueer, or doing drag. All of these alternative interpretations define the skirt and an exclusively women’s garment.

  79. CBrachyrhynchos: I’ve been trying to focus my criticisms not on transexual experience, but on the ways in which the ever-broader definition of TG and the trans/cis false dichotomy conflicts with deconstructing/expanding gender roles.

    Two points.
    1) There’s differing views on deconstructing gender. I’m on record (elsewhere) as opposing those studies of gender that look to “expand” gender roles by privileging certain forms of expression. People will be themselves, and often times that will be very “conventional.” My interests are in eliminating the privileging of any gendered behavior, and studying (and eliminating) roadblocks to self-expression.

    I think you that and I are largely aiming for the same thing, but we may be coming at it from very different perspectives. As much as this is true, it’s going to lead to confusion and acrimony.

    2)I don’t understand how “trans/cis” is a false dichotomy when applied to transsexual people. It gets confusing when you’re talking about pigeon-holing the spectrum of human behaviors into “masculine/feminine/androgynous/transgender or cisgender.” When you’re talking about transsexuality, either you’ve had the experience of identifying as a member of the sex you weren’t raised as, or you haven’t. It doesn’t have anything to do with gender. I’m tired of people like Julie Bindel assuming it does.

    The fact that I was raised a man, and identify as a woman tells you nothing about my gender.

    Those of us who are transsexual men and women have an understanding of this, because we’ve experienced it. We’re constantly pointing out how other people’s theories make no sense to us, because they completely discount how we actually feel– how we experience the world.

    Bindel and others who argue against SRS, are also usually arguing against diagnoses of transsexuality (or GID), because they’re conflating internal sex identity with gender.

    I guess what I’m saying is: Developing theory about gender is fine, but I fail to see what it has to with transsexuality. The only thing transsexual people can teach the world about gender is about the way the world treats people who identify as men as compared to people who identify as women. Because this would involve actually listening to transsexual people, it’ll probably never happen.

    Sorry to be so snarky– it just makes me a little angry that people insist on telling me how I feel, without listening to me. You’d think they’d be willing to admit that I have some insight.

  80. CBrachyrhynchos:

    I think we must have cross-posted. I see your point at #87– it’s largely a matter of semantics, but I guess I agree with you (although I don’t feel particularly strongly about what we call those behaviors). I’d argue that drag specifically explores or society’s perceptions of femininity and masculinity– so you could make the argument that drag subverts any gender binary OR that it reinforces gender roles. Either way. I don’t care.

    I guess my point was that transsexuality is different than any of the phenomena you listed, which is that people like Bindel, who object to transsexuality based on analyzes of gender are completely misunderstanding what transsexuality is.

  81. eastsidekate: 2)I don’t understand how “trans/cis” is a false dichotomy when applied to transsexual people. It gets confusing when you’re talking about pigeon-holing the spectrum of human behaviors into “masculine/feminine/androgynous/transgender or cisgender.” When you’re talking about transsexuality, either you’ve had the experience of identifying as a member of the sex you weren’t raised as, or you haven’t. It doesn’t have anything to do with gender. I’m tired of people like Julie Bindel assuming it does.

    I’m getting a bit frustrated here. I’ve tried to be quite specific as to the target of my criticism: the expansion of the definition of transgender to claim all forms of “gender bending.” I am not talking about transexuality, or ISI. If I was talking about transexuality or ISI I’d be explicit in doing so.

    I am talking about definitions of transgender that I have explicitly described and provided links to examples. Under that conception of transgender since TG appropriates all forms of gender non-conformity, what’s left as cisgender is a narrow version of gender conformity.

    I’m not talking about transexuality. I’m not talking about transexuality. I’m not talking about transexuality. I don’t know how I can make this more clear.

  82. A bunch of orgs here in New York tend to say “trans and gender non-conforming” for exactly that reason, CBrach — since transgender often seems to simultaneously mean “anyone who’s gender non-conforming,” like a huge umbrella, and also be a specific term used as self-description or identity by specific people, usually folks who are socially transitioned / living as a gender other than the one that corresponds to their birth assignment. So here’s my question: does the term “gender non-conforming” solve the problem you’re talking about? It still creates a split, but maybe it’s more of a descriptive one and less of a reified category.

    I mean, my rationale for it goes something like this:

    a) society has gender standards which you are not supposed to violate
    b) some people fail to conform to those, deliberately or otherwise, sometimes or all of the time
    c) other people, relatively speaking, tend to conform to those standards, more or less, more of the time
    Does it then make sense to talk about gender-non-conforming people (a term which I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone claim as an identity) as a very broad category? The point would be to be able to say things like “harassment by authority figures in gender-segregated restrooms is not only a problem for some groups of trans people, but can affect any gender non-conforming person who has to go to the bathroom.”

  83. And, what Betina says reflects some of my feelings on the matter. I don’t want to identify as anything other than male. I do want to live in a culture that accepts all of the little bits of my experience as within the boundaries of what it is to be a man. As a man, I knit, hack software, bake bread, grow a salt-and-pepper beard, cry at movies and wear skirts. These things are “masculine” because I as a man do them. Radical feminism is compatible with the idea of deconstructing gender roles.

    You’ve never met a butch transwoman or a femme transman, clearly. Why would you assume that they don’t exist? If you’re a man and your man-ness has to do with skirts and knitting as much as with your beard, why on earth would you assume the same is not true for some FTMs? I’ve certainly met a few.

  84. And what of those of us who have been trying to break out for many years, and end up convinced of the need for a revolution in the way in which this fucked up society considers gender?

    Isn’t this kind of like a gay man asking what place bisexuals have in his movement, and being suspicious of them because they do sorta kinda choose their orientation? The specific needs of transsexuals might not have much in common with yours. The larger goal, that is self-determination without social punishment, seems to me to be very much in keeping with the idea of a gender revolution.

  85. To describe what I’m talking about here. When I do an atypical behavior such as wearing a skirt, when I argue for the idea that skirt-wearing should be included into the vast library of “things men do.” I have to argue against the interpretation that I’m cross-dressing, a transvestite, genderqueer, or doing drag. All of these alternative interpretations define the skirt and an exclusively women’s garment.

    What Holly said about “gender non-conforming,” for one thing. It’s hard to be involved in civil-rights activism for transpeople without having to argue that behavior does not determine or validate identity.

    I disagree. I think these alternative interpretations, from a political standpoint, can also merely define this garment as something that has been defined as “for women,” and solely for women.

  86. You’ve never met a butch transwoman or a femme transman, clearly. Why would you assume that they don’t exist? If you’re a man and your man-ness has to do with skirts and knitting as much as with your beard, why on earth would you assume the same is not true for some FTMs? I’ve certainly met a few.

    It’s also important to point out that this isn’t just a defense of transsexuals as potentially non-reactionary in terms of their own gender. It speaks to the political obligations of transsexuals–and to much of the history of transsexual political activism. If transsexuals by definition conform to post-transition gender roles, then the number of people who can transition or even be acknowledged as transsexual becomes much, much smaller.

  87. “As a man, I knit, hack software, bake bread, grow a salt-and-pepper beard, cry at movies and wear skirts. These things are “masculine” because I as a man do them.”

    Masculine means having qualities traditionally ascribed to men, by definition. When a man does something it does not make that something masculine, just as when I have pizza for breakfast it does not make pizza a breakfast food. Nor would I take offense if someone referred to it as a dinner item, because it is.

  88. Anne Fausto-Sterling notes that a medical community that had been grudgingly comfortable with gender diversity became polarized once SRS was developed.

    Do you have a link for this article?

  89. On my blog, we are talking about the no-trans policy of the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival, which is based on the definition of “women-born women.” (WBW) I realize we haven’t really deconstructed what that really means, regarding these definitions you are all discussing:

    I believe that there are three dimensions here:;

    Physical sex characteristics (PSC): genitalia, breasts, facial hair, hormone production etc;

    Internal sex identity (ISI): the way one feels one’s physical body should be;

    External gender identity (EGI): the gender role expressed according to social expectation;

    Breaking this down, I don’t know on what/which basis they (the radfems producing Michfest) decide who to let into the festival. (?) I don’t think they are being this particular, but are obviously basing their definitions on something. (And I hope people arguing here still agree that trans-exclusion of any kind, for any reason, is wrong.)

    The timing of Bindel’s piece, written the week before the largest radfem music festival in the world, is interesting. I wouldn’t have thought this was a world-wide issue, but I’ve gotten hits from as far away as Denmark. Columbia and Italy. Obviously, Michfest is a major international cultural touchstone for radfems, and I think Bindel’s timing of the piece is deliberate.

  90. I just want to make sure I have this clear, because I think the discussion in this thread has changed one of my previously-held opinions. I have relatively limited personal experience in this area, but it’s something I’m very interested in, so I’m hoping I’ve learned a correct lesson here.

    I have always previously believed that, post gender-eliminating-revolution in which anyone of any gender could exhibit any characteristics without shame, transpeople would no longer feel the need to transition, because they would be able to feel at home in their own bodies, whatever they looked like.

    Now, though, I’m thinking I made the mistake of confusing sex and gender. What you all are saying is that a pre-transition transwoman looked at her body and felt inherently uncomfortable with its maleness, and that this in itself had nothing to do with any behavioral baggage that accompanies gender.

    Do I have this right?

    As a feminist I’ve always felt a bit betrayed by transmen (to my shame), because I always believed a portion of the impetus to transition was behavioral–namely that he felt he didn’t belong in a woman’s world/role, as opposed to a female body–and was frustrated that some individuals seemed to be choosing to abandon ship, as it were, rather than changing social perceptions of what a woman “should” be. Of course, I now see that this is WRONG. If I woke up tomorrow in my sister’s body, I would be uncomfortable, not because I couldn’t live her life, but because her body isn’t mine.

    Anyway, if I’ve got this straight in my brain now, thanks all of you for helping me understand this. Sometimes I think there are simply not enough years in a life possible to have all the experiences necessary to be a truly informed person, and that makes me sad. Thank you all for sharing yours.

  91. Now, though, I’m thinking I made the mistake of confusing sex and gender. What you all are saying is that a pre-transition transwoman looked at her body and felt inherently uncomfortable with its maleness, and that this in itself had nothing to do with any behavioral baggage that accompanies gender.

    Do I have this right?

    I’m not transsexual, but from people I know who are I’d say yes. I know several transsexuals whose expression takes a road like, say, “Well, at first I thought ‘I have to make sure everyone knows I’m a woman’ and acted very feminine. But now I feel so much more comfortable that I think I will let my hair down (or cut it!) and allow myself to be more ‘masculine’ — hey, wow, I’m really comfortable as a butch woman. Who knew?”

  92. Holly: Well, my personal opinion is that creating a category for “gender non-conforming” is not the way to go here. That is, I feel that a pro-feminist men should take on the task of expanding the spectrum of gender expression available to men. I don’t see why it needs to be broken out into a separate category.

    Trinity: I’ve met both. And I don’t think that really addresses my concern, since I’m not talking about transexuality. I see non-tradition-conforming transfolk as engaged in the same project of expanding identity that I feel needs to happen.

    piny: Isn’t this kind of like a gay man asking what place bisexuals have in his movement, and being suspicious of them because they do sorta kinda choose their orientation? The specific needs of transsexuals might not have much in common with yours. The larger goal, that is self-determination without social punishment, seems to me to be very much in keeping with the idea of a gender revolution.

    Well, I am a bisexual man. And there was a period of time when a chunk of the bi movement tried defining its self as the one true queer sex-liberation movement, and advanced the notion that people who did not identify as bi were narrow “monosexuals.” And the bi movement at the time tried to glom onto discussions about monogamy, polyamory, and alternative visions of family. Thankfully, this didn’t last long.

    I don’t know how many times I have to repeat this, but I’m NOT TALKING ABOUT TRANSEXUALS, I’m talking about the way in which the expanding sphere of transgender overlaps with the expanding spheres of men/women.

    Surix: And queer by definition means homosexual pervert. That hasn’t stopped some of us from challenging that definition.

    Daisy: See the book Sexing the body.

  93. Now, though, I’m thinking I made the mistake of confusing sex and gender. What you all are saying is that a pre-transition transwoman looked at her body and felt inherently uncomfortable with its maleness, and that this in itself had nothing to do with any behavioral baggage that accompanies gender.

    Do I have this right?

    That sounds right to me. Thanks so much for taking the time to try and make sense of this! It is very nice to read you saying that some stuff in this long thread helps make trans people’s lives more intelligble to you.

    There’s one caveat, which is that I think it’s very difficult, for most or maybe any of us, trans people included, to completely disentangle how we feel about our physical bodies (i.e. “sex”) completely and 100% separate from the social meanings and rules based on those bodies (i.e. “gender”). This is part of why for many trans people, sorting out these issues takes years and years of introspection, agonizing, therapy, discussion. Feelings about social gender and feelings about physical sex are heavily intertwined, and we assume they are inextricable; we talk about pressure on women to get breast implants and some people think trans people’s discomfort with our bodies falls neatly into the same category. But really, all of my experiences and listening to trans people (in addition to my own limited experience) lead me to believe that this is actually a case that points out that there are two different things going on: our bodies and how we inhabit them as conscious beings, and then all the social baggage that is piled on top. “Trans” feelings of one sort or another are cross-cultural and cross-historical, although they take many different forms and expressions in different places and times; and everything suggests that something is going on at a very “deep” level that’s very unlike, say, wanting breast implants because your boyfriend is complaining that your breasts aren’t big enough.

    Maybe I should post something about Julia Serano’s “intrinsic inclination model” as well — she talks about certain kinds of gender inclination as “occuring on a deep, subconscious level and generally remaining intact despite social influences and conscious attempts by individuals to purge, repress, or ignore them.” Which shouldn’t be misconstrued as insisting on a “biological origin” or something essential, etc.

  94. Holly: Well, my personal opinion is that creating a category for “gender non-conforming” is not the way to go here. That is, I feel that a pro-feminist men should take on the task of expanding the spectrum of gender expression available to men. I don’t see why it needs to be broken out into a separate category.

    I probably wasn’t clear enough: I don’t think we need more categories either. However, I do think we need words to be able to talk about people’s genders within the context of an oppressive structure of gender rules. That doesn’t mean we need to construct two boxes; part of the reason I like “gender non-conforming” is that it’s more descriptive and less categorical (at least, it sounds that way to me). Another way to put this is: we need adjectives more than nouns. “Gender non-conforming” doesn’t have to be a category, it can be a quality. If we can’t name that (and actually, you used the phrase yourself, CBrach) then how are we to talk about how and why and who is being persecuted, and for what?

  95. Daisy,

    A lot of different reasons have been given over the years for excluding trans women from Michfest, and all three of the dimensions you mention are involved. As I understand the position of some of the organizers of the festival and other women who have defended the policy, it is something sort of like this:

    Physical sex characteristics (PSC) (genitalia, breasts, facial hair, hormone production etc.), particularly genitals, used to be much more of a focus in objections to trans women being at Michfest, mostly due to talking about how it would be very undesirable to have “penises on the land” since penises are equated with maleness and phallocracy, etc. More nuanced discussion has tended to focus on the idea that some survivors of sexual abuse might be triggered by seeing the naked genitals of some trans women, thus compromising the safe space of the festivals. This approach has generally been decried by the trans-inclusive opposition as reducing people to their genitals, being obsessed with penises (Camp Trans had a slogan for a while that was something like “why is it all about the penis?”), ignoring the fact that trans women often have a very problematic relationship to their genitals, which can expose them to violence and discrimination, and also overlooking the fact that survivors of abuse can be triggered by all sorts of things. It’s worth noting that there is a faction of post-op trans women who believes that the line should be drawn at genitals and that only trans women who have had genital surgery should be allowed to attend MWMF.

    Internal sex identity (ISI) (the way one feels one’s physical body should be) on the other hand is held up as the most important component of gender by the Camp Trans faction (which has changed a lot over the years and often isn’t the same people from year to year, but a lot of the basic ideas remain consistent). The MWMF objection to ISI is that it’s totally arbitrary and that people can lie about it, because it’s internal; the fear is that basing entrance to women-only space on self-identification would open the doors to pretty much anyone who wanted to declare that they’re female. Since the policy is not enforced, this is sort of already the case, but presumably the setting of a boundary does help create a space with a certain feeling and measure of protection anyway.

    External gender identity (EGI) (the gender role expressed according to social expectation) has gradually become more of a prominent rationale for not allowing trans women into MWMF and is probably the most common reason you’ll see being advanced on blogs these days. The idea is that MWMF is defined as a festival for women who have a consistent experience of being treated and socialized as women, or women who have experienced girldhoods. Trans women, who have had a shifting “EGI” (and worse still, probably have some male socialization and benefits of male privilege) don’t fall into this category and so the festival is not meant for them. The main objection you see to this from the other side is that to all appearances, MWMF is usually discussed and billed as a women’s festival for all sorts of women; nothing in the literature or programming seems to indicate that it’s about or centered on a generalized experience of girlhood or consistency of being treated as a woman (and of course, some trans-masculine spectrum MWMF attendees who pass as men elsewhere may be less consistently treated this way than others). But at this point, the argument usually lapses into accusations that the pro-policy people are being disingenuous in their claims of what the focus of the festival is, and the whole discussion becomes pointless.

  96. Well, I am a bisexual man. And there was a period of time when a chunk of the bi movement tried defining its self as the one true queer sex-liberation movement, and advanced the notion that people who did not identify as bi were narrow “monosexuals.” And the bi movement at the time tried to glom onto discussions about monogamy, polyamory, and alternative visions of family. Thankfully, this didn’t last long.

    You’re conflating two distinct ideas: that gender-nonconformity carries social penalties, and that transition or cross-gender identity–which is a kind of variance–carries special social penalties that are related but distinct. I don’t think “transgender” is an attempt to argue that only transpeople are constrained, only an attempt to describe the mechanism by which transpeople are constrained.

    I don’t know how many times I have to repeat this, but I’m NOT TALKING ABOUT TRANSEXUALS, I’m talking about the way in which the expanding sphere of transgender overlaps with the expanding spheres of men/women.

    But you kind of are. At least, you’re attempting to draw a line between people who don’t conform with gender and people who transgress their gender, and arguing that the transsexuals should keep their transitional-gender peanut-butter out of your non-conforming chocolate. No coherent transgender movement can do such a thing, because society doesn’t distinguish so carefully between people who don’t conform to their assigned role because they’re another gender and people who don’t conform to their assigned role because they aren’t that kind of man or woman. _And_ most transsexuals, it would seem, have a direct stake in the idea that someone can do anything or be anything and still be considered a man or woman should they so identify.

  97. piny: Well, no, I’m not arguing for a clear separation either. I’m just pointing out that to the degree that people who identify as men and women try to expand those roles, and the people who identify as genderqueer or other third possibility have concerns that overlap, that there may be some tension between the two. That is, people who identify as transgennder and people who identify as expanding existing genders are going to be placing their own flags on the same territory, and argue for different intepretations of those acts.

  98. That is, people who identify as transgennder and people who identify as expanding existing genders are going to be placing their own flags on the same territory, and argue for different intepretations of those acts.

    Why is it such a problem for something to be potentially trans and non-conforming at the same time? Why does it seem like co-opting? These two interpretations strike me as two sides of the same idea, neither orthogonal or opposed. They can’t not overlap. Like I said, I’m not sure how you can say that the concept of “drag” can be coherently explicated withour incorporating the idea of gender non-conformity, and vice versa.

  99. Well, I am a bisexual man. And there was a period of time when a chunk of the bi movement tried defining its self as the one true queer sex-liberation movement, and advanced the notion that people who did not identify as bi were narrow “monosexuals.” And the bi movement at the time tried to glom onto discussions about monogamy, polyamory, and alternative visions of family. Thankfully, this didn’t last long.

    And you’ve also commented at least a couple times with the clear implication that the trans-people are denigrating people like you as less revolutionary.

  100. piny: It frustrates me quite a bit that this is being framed as pro/anti-trans. My answer to your question is that anytime you have two groups with a different worldviews and theories staking claim to the same political space, that you have the potential for conflict. One person claims cross-dressing as a signifier of being a third-gender person. Another person claims cross-dressing as an expansion of masculinity/femininity. The question is how do we negotiate that tension in a positive way.

    And yes, in that some people have expanded “transgender” to include all forms of gender role deviance, I think that they are leaving less room for cisgendered revolutions. BUT, I’ve tried to take care to say that this is not necessarily true of all trans-people.

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