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A Question for Pro-Lifers

I know there are at least a few regular readers who self-identify as “pro-life.” So here’s a question for you: How much time should she do?

One goal of the anti-choice movement is to outlaw abortion. But, as Anna Quindlen points out, anti-choice activists are almost never able to identify what the legal consequences should be for women who terminate their pregnancies. So, pro-lifers, tell me: What should the penalty be? How much time in jail should a woman face for abortion?

Anti-choicers emphasize that a fetus is a person, invested with all the same* natural rights as you or I. Life begins at conception. That fertilized egg has all of its DNA, making it just as human as all of us and endowing it with the right to live. Ok. But if a fetus is a person, and abortion indisputably kills a fetus, then abortion is murder — deliberate, pre-meditated murder. That certainly isn’t a new concept for anti-choicers — the “abortion is murder” line has been around for decades now. But we punish people for murder. We sentence them to long prison terms, often for life. Sometimes we execute them.

Do you support executing women who have abortions?

Do you support jailing them for life? For a few decades?

What if they have multiple abortions? What if they had access to all the literature and information that anti-choicers believe women considering abortion should be required to receive? What if they acknowledge that they know exactly what they are doing and they feel no guilt or shame for terminating their pregnancies?

Quindlen writes:

Lawmakers in a number of states have already passed or are considering statutes designed to outlaw abortion if Roe is overturned. But almost none hold the woman, the person who set the so-called crime in motion, accountable. Is the message that women are not to be held responsible for their actions? Or is it merely that those writing the laws understand that if women were going to jail, the vast majority of Americans would violently object? Watch the demonstrators in Libertyville try to worm their way out of the hypocrisy: It’s murder, but she’ll get her punishment from God. It’s murder, but it depends on her state of mind. It’s murder, but the penalty should be … counseling?

If women are so infantile that our bad acts toward fetuses must be punished with counseling or left to God, does that apply when our bad acts are directed at born people? If I kill my next-door neighbor, can I simply say that because of my tiny lady-brain and tinier lady-morals, I just didn’t know any better? Can I get counseling or some smiting instead of jail time?

How can it possibly be legally (or even morally) consistent to attach full rights to a fetus and then treat its death as somehow less important, or different, than the death of a born person?

Could it be that when we actually examine the case of a pre-meditated, deliberate murder of a born, living person against the case of a woman who terminates a pregnancy, we see that the two situations feel… different? Could it be that we see that there is a difference between a fetus and a born person?

But that’s not the “pro-life” argument.

To complicate things a little more: If life starts at conception, and from the moment of fertilization an egg is a full-fledged human being with the same rights as you or I, what do we do about calculating the death rate? The miscarriage rate? What do we do about all those embryos in fertility clinics? Do we force women to implant them and carry them to term? If not, how do we justify forcing women to carry naturally-implanted pregnancies to term? If the answer is that no, we don’t force women to be implanted with embryos, but we don’t kill the embryos either — we just let them be — then would it be ok for pregnant women to simply remove their embryos/fetuses without purposely killing them and just hope for the best?

If a fertilized egg is a full-fledged person under the law, what other legal activities — other than abortion — would have to go? Fertility treatments? Birth control? Any medical treatment that could potentially harm a fetus, even if foregoing it meant that the woman would experience severe health complications or death?

What about pregnant women engaging in behaviors that are risky for the fetus? Can she be prosecuted for child abuse or negligence if she, say, drinks coffee while she’s pregnant? If she eats tuna? If she smokes? What about if she goes skiing? What if she didn’t know she was pregnant, but should have known, and she does something risky — like goes binge drinking every night and survives off of Cheetos? Willful blindness? Neglect? What if she miscarries, and perhaps you can attribute it to something she did — negligent homicide?

What do doctors do if they’re faced with a life-threatening pregnancy? Do they force the woman to continue it, knowing it will kill her? I mean, it’s not the fetus’s fault, and it can’t really be construed as self-defense to terminate the pregnancy. And their lives are equal, aren’t they? Do we just let nature take its course, then?

Finally, what about if we’re deciding between an embryo and a born child — who wins out? Lots of feminists have asked this question before and we’ve never gotten a straight answer, so let me try again. Take this hypothetical: There’s a fire in a fertility clinic. Inside the clinic there’s a three-year-old boy who you’ve never met and have absolutely no connection to. There are also 100 embryos in a box. You only have time to run into the clinic one time. You cannot carry the boy and the box at the same time. What do you do? Do you save 100, or do you save one?

These are a lot of questions, but they absolutely must be asked. And those who want to see abortion criminalized need to think long and hard about the consequences of their ideal policies. Because this post is long and I know all your time is valuable, I’ll even let “pro-life” readers off the hook with this one, and I’ll ask that you just answer the first question: How much time should she do?

*This point is highly disputable — after all, no born people have the right to physically attach themselves to someone else and use that person’s body for their own survival, against the will and at the physical expense of the attachee. But that’s another post. Or a Judith Jarvis Thomson article.


666 thoughts on A Question for Pro-Lifers

  1. I’m quite firmly identify as pro-choice, so I haven’t got any “answers” for you, but I have to say: Well written, and I, too, am curious to hear responses from another camp.

  2. I guess that should say “Hear Hear” instead of “Well written” because I am definitely not the person to be judging writing capability. 🙂

  3. Brilliant! Harsh, but necessary questions. Somehow I get the feeling that not many pro-lifers will be responding to this. They just don’t have the answers and many have never bothered to think it through to this stage.

  4. … Woah. This is absolutely brilliant. Because I can think of dozens of pro-lifers that I’ve debated with who would talk about criminalizing abortion all day, but stutter when faced with the hard questions.

    Definately save this for future arguments.

  5. You will never get a response to this because, as we all know, it’s not about the precious golden fetus and life, it’s about women’s sexual freedom. I really wish someone would ask this question during a presidential debate.

    The pro-life movement learned long ago that directly demonizing and punishing women is not a good PR move. So we now have post-abortion stress syndrome and talk of an evil abortion industry that tricks women into having abortions. They want to help women, don’t you know? Of course, I’ve never seen this sort of sympathy for women who kill their born children, even when they really do suffer from severe, documented mental illness.

  6. well, amanda, she can be the biggest “slut” on the face of the planet, but what she does with her body is none of your business.

  7. I’m sure that they’ll say that the point is to make it illegal so that doctors will stop performing it, which I think would make it the only law of its kind to punish the provider and not the procurer. But again, that’s trying to equate it to something like drugs… their point is that it’s murder. If I hired someone to kill my husband, you’d better believe that I’d go to jail, along with the person I hired. Maybe if I’m ever driven to it, I could ask the judge for some counciling instead (provided these laws go through).

    My favorite part of the video is when the woman says “we should pray for them.” Court-ordered prayer! Yee haw!

  8. A question to add:

    What do we say about identical twins? Division of the blastocyte/embryo usually occurs before day 5–if it’s going to happen at all–to form identical twins. So if a zygote is a human being with all rights of personhood from the very moment of conception, how many persons are there on days 1-4 if the embryo splits on 5? If really early abortions were possible and a woman killed a 3 day old embryo which would have become twins on day 5, did she commit one murder or two?

  9. And what about the “out” for wealthy women – going to Europe or Canada? I’m not an expert, but it seems to me that any citizen who travels for the purpose of committing a crime could be punished upon her return.

    It’s such an excellent question – especially for the “I should be allowed an abortion, but not you, you slut” crowd.

  10. Then there’s the problem of chimeras: two embryos that merge into one. Should the surviving embryo be charged with murder for “eating” its twin? Should the mother be charged for not protecting the embryo from its abusive twin? Or should we simply say that two embryos=two people, no matter how many babies are born, and declare the child to be two people? Like being your own evil twin, you know.

    I also note that we’re 8 (as of the time of my writing this) responses in without a single pro-lifer writing in with his/her recommendation. Where are Jivin and the rest of them?

  11. Thank you. I have actually asked this question on a few websites and occasionally I’ve gotten commenters to agree that women who procure abortions should go to jail. I soooo wish I bring all those statements out into the open, where people could see just how hate-filled these people are.

  12. “I’m sure that they’ll say that the point is to make it illegal so that doctors will stop performing it”
    Most doctors will stop performing it, but, as we’ve seen everywhere abortion is banned, that will hardly stop it from being done. The question is still valid.

  13. Brilliantly put!

    But, as Anonymous says, “You will never get a response to this because, as we all know, it’s not about the precious golden fetus and life, it’s about women’s sexual freedom.” Indeed, it is not about preventing fetus-death, but rather about forcing child-birth, and the concomitant pressures and burdens this puts on the woman-as-mother. It is about legitimizing a structure that blocks opportunities for women by channeling their lives directly towards maternity; do not pass go, do not collect $200, just get in the kitchen and be barefoot and pregnant!

  14. Hi Jill,
    To answer your first question – I’d say none.

    I actually had a post on this video and the reaction of pro-choice bloggers to it about two years ago.

    I also had a post discussing whether women should be punished for having abortions about two and a half years ago at the spurring of Between Two Worlds who also highlighted some thoughts of philosopher Francis Beckwith on this issue.

    What I wonder about is after seeing the video and knowing that people who protest at abortion clinics (obviously some of the most adamant people opposed to abortion) don’t want women thrown in jail – do you still think one of the goals of the prolife movement is to punish women for having premarital sex? If so, why?

    Quindlen writes: If abortion is made a crime, then surely the woman who has one is a criminal.

    Why? For example, couldn’t a state pass a law prohibiting physicians (or anyone else) from providing a woman with abortion and then provide punish (loss of license, fine, or jail time) to the individual providing the abortion and not make the woman a criminal at all. Sometimes I think pro-choicers forget that abortion was illegal for many years in many states and women weren’t prosecuted and thrown in jail. Quindlen is treating laws as if they were simplistic and punishments didn’t vary and there aren’t any reasons at all for not prosecuting women.

    Two things regarding the embryos “leftover” from in-vitro. First, maybe we could regulate IVF clinics so they’re not creating more embryos than women are planning on implanting – I think that could be a good first step. Second, don’t force women to carry pregnancies against their will but allow those embryos to be given to people who are interested in carrying them.

    There’s a fire in a fertility clinic. Inside the clinic there’s a three-year-old boy who you’ve never met and have absolutely no connection to. There are also 100 embryos in a box. You only have time to run into the clinic one time. You cannot carry the boy and the box at the same time. What do you do? Do you save 100, or do you save one?

    What is the goal of this question? Is the goal to somehow prove embryos aren’t persons or aren’t human beings? Is the goal to prove it should be legal to kill human embryos? If so, how does being forced to choose to save one or the other prove it? The question is about choosing to save which life (lives) not choosing if it should be legal to intentionally kill that life or those lives.

    Ramesh Ponnuru says this regarding the burning building scenario: “The moral question posed by the burning-building scenario is the extent to which you can show favoritism without being unjust. That’s an interesting question. But in answering it we might reasonably take account of all kinds of things – family ties, the life prospects of potential rescuees, the suffering they would undergo if not rescued, etc. – that aren’t relevant to the question: Can we kill them?

    To put it another way: In affirming that all human beings have an equal right not to be killed, we need not affirm that all human beings have equal claims on us in all aspects.”

  15. And what about the “out” for wealthy women – going to Europe or Canada?

    How about in Ireland, where they say “women can have abortions over in England, just don’t have them here!” It’s again entirely inconsistent with believing it’s murder.

    how many persons are there on days 1-4 if the embryo splits on 5?

    And these *would* be legitimate questions if abortion was outlawed and criminal cases against doctors/women went forward. The idea of forensic vagina inspectors poking the former contents of my uterus under a microscope to determine how many, if any, murders occurred is simultaneously hilarious and terrifying.

  16. They will generally argue that the poor woman is brainwashed by the Abortion Industry, and so we can’t punish her for the fact that her poor little lady-brain was unable to help her resist.

  17. Thanks for posting on this — I find this to be a fascinating reframing of the debate, that forces the anti-choicers to think, just for a moment, about the women involved.
    Definitely check out the youtube vid if you haven’t already. These people are flummoxed at this question — they are so black/white about everything surrounding abortions — women are BABY KILLERS!!!, etc. But when you ask them what the punishment should be, they suggest …. counseling?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T95avZoqlhE
    We’re also having a lively discussion about this on livejournal — come join! http://http://community.livejournal.com/ljforchoice/835635.html
    and http://community.livejournal.com/_discussion/706615.html

  18. How about if you spontaneously abort because you failed to follow your doctor’s bedrest instructions to the letter? Is that premeditated or unpremeditated? What were your motivations in picking up your crying toddler when you were expressly told not to?

    No, they will stick it to the doctors because otherwise they have to acknowledge that abortion is not all about slutty behaviour but it is mostly about health (mental and physical) issues.

  19. I also found the post-Roe legal scheme (prosecute doctors, but not mothers) to be a terrible miscarriage of justice. After all, doctors are only the hitmen/women in the calculus, and the mother is the capo di tutti capi in the nefarious scheme. I guess that the absolute morality of microscopic rights becomes more of a political equation when it comes to enforcement.

    And, as we see the Nigeria article, prohibition really works, don’t it!

  20. Anonymous above is right:

    “…it’s not about the precious golden fetus and life, it’s about women’s sexual freedom.”

    I am most certainly not “pro-life” but if I were I’d be supporting research that would allow zygotes, embryos, and fetuses to grow outside of woman’s wombs. I would be looking to science to make an incubator so that instead of abortion, we could have fetus transplants. The “aborted” fetuses would be carefully removed from the womb and then placed inside an incubator for the duration of the “pregnancy.”

  21. Jivin-

    The point of the burning building scenario, and of the rest of the questions, is to illustrate the fact that the vast majority of people — including most “pro-life” people — do not, in actuality, believe that a fetus or an embryo is the full equivalent of a born human being. Yes, you can criminalize doctors who provide abortions but not women who procure them. That’s fine. But that would have to be done in a way other than by affirming the personhood of a fetus. The way anti-choice legislation is currently going is to state that “life begins at conception.” The goal is to invest embryos and fetuses with the same rights as born people. Much of the anti-choice rhetoric rests on the premise that an embryo is a person and deserves the same rights as you or I.

    If that’s the case, then killing that embryo or fetus is murder. In this country, if you intentionally kill a person, you’re prosecuted for it. It would make no legal sense to brand a fetus a “person” and then not treat it as one under the law. The only way around it would be to skip the personhood element all together.

    If you’re ok with that, then fine — but then at least admit that you recognize that there’s a difference between a fetus and a born person. Because I have a hard time imagining that many people would support legislation that would let mothers off the hook for paying someone to kill their born children.

    Which, again, is why I brought up the burning building scenario — to point out that there is a difference between a born child and an embryo, and that when push comes to shove, we all know it and would act accordingly.

  22. “The moral question posed by the burning-building scenario is the extent to which you can show favoritism without being unjust. That’s an interesting question. But in answering it we might reasonably take account of all kinds of things – family ties, the life prospects of potential rescuees, the suffering they would undergo if not rescued, etc. – that aren’t relevant to the question: Can we kill them?

    To put it another way: In affirming that all human beings have an equal right not to be killed, we need not affirm that all human beings have equal claims on us in all aspects.”

    Isn’t this what some pro-choicers argue? There are certainly many pro-choice people who believe fetuses to be alive, and believe them to be invested with some rights. But they also believe that not all human beings have equal claims on us in all aspects — and a fetus does not have the right to use someone else’s body for its survival without that person’s consent.

  23. Elaine, who would raise those children once they were born? Some will be adopted, but what about the rest? Will private industry pay for these “clinics” and orphanages or the government?

  24. JivinJ, the questions are asked to pro-lifers who think abortion is murder. If you honestly think that abortion is murder, how do you not charge the woman? If a man pays someone to kill his wife, would you say the hitman should lose his professional license, receive a fine, or maybe get jail time, but we should have sympathy for the husband for going through something so hard? Or what if a woman purchases poison (RU486 analogy) from her doctor, or from anywhere (RU486 is available on the internet) and used it to kill her husband, should we punish the seller, but not her?

    If you wouldn’t treat a murder the way you would an abortion, or vis versa, then how can you call abortion murder?

  25. “I am most certainly not “pro-life” but if I were I’d be supporting research that would allow zygotes, embryos, and fetuses to grow outside of woman’s wombs.”

    That would hardly be a good thing just for pro-choice folks. I imagine there are a lot of women who have trouble conceiving due to uterine problems and/or who run into hella difficulties during wanted pregnancies who’d kill to have something like that available.

    That having been said, artificial wombs would hardly be a magic bullet when it comes to abortion. There’d still be a fairly sizable can of bioethical worms to deal with, on top of the fact that the number of children would quickly outstrip the number of people willing and able to adopt them.

  26. . . .couldn’t a state pass a law prohibiting physicians (or anyone else) from providing a woman with abortion and then provide punish (loss of license, fine, or jail time) to the individual providing the abortion and not make the woman a criminal at all. . .

    Yes, it certainly could. The question is, what’s your rationale for such a law? If you think abortion is murder, why would you want to jail the person committing the murder, but let the person contracting the murder get off scot-free? The point is that the pro-life position appears logically inconsistent here; it is of course possible to have laws that are logically inconsistent, but it’s not desirable.

  27. Thanks for the post. It’s really very thought provoking and intelligently written. It’s good to have all in one place too. I’m going to link to it from my blog.

  28. For example, couldn’t a state pass a law prohibiting physicians (or anyone else) from providing a woman with abortion and then provide punish (loss of license, fine, or jail time) to the individual providing the abortion and not make the woman a criminal at all.

    Great, so then there will also be no punishment for people who hire thugs to snuff out people for them? Because it’s the same thing, if you equate embryo with person. (I also don’t like the casual throwing around of “fetus” – the vast majority of abortions are performed at the embryo stage). If you don’t think so, then you’re saying either women don’t have the mental capacity to understand the consequences of walking into a hospital and asking for an abortion or that the embryo isn’t deserving of full-citizen rights.

  29. Let’s also not forget that, a lot of the time, women perform their own abortions with over-the-counter medicine. Would we prosecute such a woman as an abortion provider rather than a recipient? 5 years? 10? Prayer?

  30. Pro-lifers refuse to answer the burning building question. I’ve asked it countless times and they always complain that such a scenario is unlikely to happen (or some other lame excuse they think lets them off the hook). Uh, no shit; that’s not the point.

    Pro-lifers don’t want to admit they’d save the toddler (which is what most everyone would do), because they’d be admitting that his/her life is “worth” more than the “lives” of fertilized eggs in petri dishes. And then their whole “fetuses are people too!” argument crumbles.

    JivinJ, how could you NOT punish women who get abortions if you truly believe abortion is murder? Does that mean we women get to kill born people without consequence too? Other than counseling, of course – haha. Most pro-lifers claim they want to see women “take responsibility!!!1!” for their actions, so how come when push comes to shove only the doctors face punishment?

  31. do you still think one of the goals of the prolife movement is to punish women for having premarital sex? If so, why?

    Because they’re still forcing women to use their bodies to support another person, without the woman’s consent.

  32. JivinJ: Do you believe that a person who hires a hitman to murder someone should or should not be legally accountable for murder? By pro-life doctrine, how is a woman contracting a doctor to perform an abortion any different?

  33. Yes, not surprising the posted question won’t get an answer.

    I am curious. On the flipside, considering it’s a woman’s absolute right over her own body, how stringent (if at all?) do you wish legal abortion to be?

    I am pro-choice (not necessarily pro-abortion), I suppose I never thought it out in detail.

  34. Did anyone really expect any honest answers? Since I am pro-choice I have only more questions. In case abortions are always prohibited what happens when a woman dies when an abortion could have saved her live? Could one sue a doctor, because he “killed” the woman, for not treating her? If a woman tries abort by throwing herself down the stairs what happens? Is it attempted murder?

  35. Just wanted to elaborate on something Murphy mentioned above:

    What about those women who choose medical abortions (instead of surgical ones)? The doctor does little more than hand her the pills required, and the woman then goes home and actively performs the abortion herself.

  36. Jivin’, the refusal to treat abortion like premeditated child murder absolutely proves that pro-lifers (excluding the terrorists, of course) do not think that abortion is murder or that a fetus is a person.

    If the antis thought that abortion was premeditated child murder, they would (a) believe that women who participate in it were committing murder for hire and should be jailed for long terms or executed — and none of this “brainwashed” stuff; we sentence people to life in prison for things they did only because they were intoxicated or in the grasp of addictions; (b) support the saving of a lot of people (embryos) instead of just one, ceteris paribus; and (c) they would support legislation to prevent women in one jurisdiction from terminating a pregnancy in another — the US will prosecute here a citizen who travels abroad to have sex with a minor; surely premeditated child murder is worse than molestation.

    But nobody except the terrorists propose those remedies. (Kopp is a monster but he’s an intellectually consistent monster.)

    The rest of the “give ’em counseling” opponents are full of shit. They think abortion is bad, but only sort of bad, like stealing money. That’s why, when they need one, they can justify it by “necessity”: theirs is “different.” Their reasons are better, not like those other bad women. For example, I have a cousin who terminated two pregnancies, and in between, she protested in the big clinic-hit protests of the early 1990s with her evangelical friends. But, you know, the father of the fetus was black and married and her dad was a racist and wouldn’t accept it and … she really, really needed it, not like those other women.

    For the vast majority of antis, it is manifestly true that they will use the rhetoric of “murder” but shrink from its conclusions because they don’t believe it. If a fertilized egg had a right to live equal to that of a two year old, then we would treat their deliberate killing similarly; but they don’t propose that.

    So if they don’t believe it’s murder, then what’s wrong with it? The answer feminists keep coming up with is that it thwarts God’s plan that sexually transmitted disease and pregnancy are the punishments for sexual sin. That is consistent with the reasoning that contraception should be limited or eliminated, and that schoolchildren be discouraged from using condoms.

    But I suppose you have a different explanation.

  37. “not necessarily pro-abortion”

    What does ‘pro-abortion’ even mean? That someone thinks having abortion available is a moral good, or that they’re actively advocating for more abortions?

  38. The two things The Good Old Boys [in and out of The Chruch] fear and hate worst are [a] women who are capable of rational thought and [b] women who think that because they are human they have the same rights of self determination as ‘anybody else’.

    This discussion clearly shows that The Good Old Boys have much more to fear than they might have thought.

    The sad thing – the the challenge for the rest of us – is the number of women who either don’t understand [a] and [b] are true or who have been subjugated into not acting on those two truths.

  39. “If women are so infantile that our bad acts toward fetuses must be punished with counseling or left to God, does that apply when our bad acts are directed at born people?”

    If they crafted the statute so that the law was directed towards protecting the fetus and the mother from the harm of the abortion, then legally they could prosecute doctors who performed them without having to worry about dealing with the women, because you can’t be complicit in a crime (or at least not in a conspiracy to commit a crime) when you are part of the class intended to be protected by the statute (i.e. only prosecuting shopkeepers for selling alcohol to minors, instead of prosecuting both the shopkeeper and the minor for that particular crime).

    Other than that minor technical escape hatch, I don’t see that any pro-lifer has much of a response to the other points that doesn’t compromise the practical applicability of their ridiculous moral position.

  40. PM, since I oppose all unwanted pregnancy and support comprehensive sex ed and free contraception to all as a public good, I would like to see a world in which abortion was merely a last resort, primarily used to deal with pregnancies that endanger the woman or show abnormalities that cause the woman to want to terminate; that said, I think the availability of the means safely to end any unwanted pregnancy is a good.

  41. While I definitely give Jivin points for being brave enough to show up and answer the question, the only “pro-lifer” so far to do so–I find his answer kind of silly. As others have already, if abortion is murder, infanticide even, then letting the woman who procures the abortion get off with no penalty is appalling. Would you propose that a woman who commits infanticide go unpunished? If not, then why the distinction?

    As far as the fire in the IVF clinic question goes, all I can say is that when one is presented with a scenario in which 101 people are in danger and you can either save 100 of them or 1 of them, it’s usually not a hard decision to make. Failing to save the one would feel crappy, of course, but it’s hard to imagine a scenario in which saving one life versus saving 100 is really that big a dilemma*. So why is it in IVF clinic question? Maybe because those 100 4-8 celled organisms aren’t really people, not even in the opinion of a hard core pro-lifer?

    *Yes, I know, it can be done, usually by making the one person someone important to the decision maker. But the toddler and products of conception involved were both explicitly stated to be random.

  42. And Paul, that method of dealing with abortion is almost MORE insulting because it infantalizes women so much. To pro-lifers who espouse this view, I’d say just lock me up. I WANTED the abortion and I KNEW what I was doing. I don’t need to be protected from myself.

  43. “PM, since I oppose all unwanted pregnancy and support comprehensive sex ed and free contraception to all as a public good, I would like to see a world in which abortion was merely a last resort, primarily used to deal with pregnancies that endanger the woman or show abnormalities that cause the woman to want to terminate; that said, I think the availability of the means safely to end any unwanted pregnancy is a good.”

    I asked mainly because the phrase seemed to be included like a caveat, almost like the old “I’m pro-choice, but I personally would never have an abortion” line. Once somebody’s using it like that, it seems reasonable to ask what they mean by it.

  44. It pisses me off that “adoption” is the magic pill to cure all abortion woes. Right now we are in a crisis with children in foster care that need loving homes. But people want only healthy infants. So tell me this… are THEY going to adopt a child with a life expectancy of 5 years with horrible medical care costs? Are they going to take care of a child who will never be able to talk, walk or hug you for the many years it could live? Nope, it’s easier to say that life is more important until it’s a real live person needing care and love. And I bet you a good 3/4 of the pro-life movement thinks the government spends too much on things like birth to 3 and other programs. Until each and everyone of those people adopt a child who needs a home, they are just a bunch of perverts trying to put their hands on women’s private parts.

  45. Hello Jill. You’ve asked a lot of questions and covered a lot of ground, but I”ll try and do my best to respond. If abortion is the taking of the life of a human person, than aborion is murder. Hence if abortion is made illegal, the same punishments should apply to women who procure abortions and doctors who perform these abortions as would any murderer found guilty in a court of law. Personally I don’t think the death penalty should be used on women who abort nor on any murderers. But this is the logical conclusion from my (the pro-life) position.

    “How can it possibly be legally (or even morally) consistent to attach full rights to a fetus and then treat its death as somehow less important, or different, than the death of a born person?”

    I agree with you 100%. The same laws which take into consideration a person’s mental health or knowledge when they murder someone should be the same as those applied to a women who procures an abortion.

    “Could it be that when we actually examine the case of a pre-meditated, deliberate murder of a born, living person against the case of a woman who terminates a pregnancy, we see that the two situations feel… different? Could it be that we see that there is a difference between a fetus and a born person?”

    Again, you are correct. Same laws.

    As far as your question about embryos in fertility clinics goes, that is a question to which I don’t believe there is a good answer to. A grave evil has already been done, and it is difficult to say what the best solution is. The problem is that that situation should never have existed in the first place. So i believe that there is no good answer yet as to what to do about all the IVF babies.

    “If a fertilized egg is a full-fledged person under the law, what other legal activities — other than abortion — would have to go? Fertility treatments? Birth control?”

    Yes. As I said above, some fertility treatment (think IVF) is a grave evil that leads to problems like you mentioned as well “fetal reduction”, which is just another word for abortion. Like birth control which promotes sex without babies, IVF promotes babies without sex. As you alluded to, the pill, the patch, IUD, the ring, all these hormonal contraceptives act as an abortifacient because they can cause the uterine wall to think, making implantation impossible for the embryo, causing it to die. This is why the deinition of pregnancy was changed from conception to implantation, to avoid those hormonal contraceptives from causing an abortion. Although that is rare, it nevertheless can happen.

    The risky behaviors question you ask is an interesting one. A lot of what you mentioned can’t really be monitored. In fact, we don’t have laws in the US regulating everything. Consider adultery. Most people agree that this is wrong, but we don’t have police barging into people’s bedrooms checking to see if adultery is being committed. I think the answer to you questions about drinking coffee, eating tuna, etc. is that this cannot be regulated by the law. It is just too difficult. Who would police it?

    “What do doctors do if they’re faced with a life-threatening pregnancy? Do they force the woman to continue it, knowing it will kill her? I mean, it’s not the fetus’s fault, and it can’t really be construed as self-defense to terminate the pregnancy. And their lives are equal, aren’t they? Do we just let nature take its course, then?”

    This is a very good question and I think a lot of people who support abortion have the wrong idea about the pro lifers answer to this. The purpose of medicine is to help people and to save lives. So the job of the doctor, in the case of a life-threatening pregnancy, is to try and save BOTH the mother and the baby. We don’t have to choose between one or the other. We love them both. Although most life-threatening pregnancys need to be treated on a case-by-case basis, the general guideline is to have the pregnancy go as far as it can and then induce labor in the hope of saving both mother and baby. Sometimes this is not possible, and labor is induced too early and the baby dies. That is not the same, though, ripping the baby apart limb by limb in the womb. You try and save both. Another case is an ectopic pregnancy. For this, we apply the principal of double-effect. When the baby implants in the fallopian tube, you remove the fallopian tube to save the life of the mother. An unintended side effect of this is that the embryo dies. But you don’t WILL the embryo to die. In fact, if it was possible, the doctors would do something to save that embryo’s life. The big difference is that in an abortion, a doctors job is not done unless the baby is dead. In the ectopic pregnancy, the doctors job is to save the mothers life, while a secondary, UNINTENTIONAL side effect is the death of the baby.

    The final question you asked, just simply cannot be answered. One cannot choose between the worth of human life. All human life is sacred, and so one person’s life is as valuable as 100 peoples life (infinity = infinity X 100, hehe). You just can’t choose between who is more valuable. It is analogous to asking “who would you save in a fire? your mom or your 100 of your friends? or 100 strangers?”.

    As far as the Judith Thomson article goes, I think she misses the point completely. There is a nice rebuttal to her paper in the book “Architects of the Culture of Death” by Donald De Marco and Benjamin D. Wiker. But let me say that ultimetly, it is a conflict of interests. What I mean by that is that if it is a human being and if the mother does not want the baby, who should get their way under the law? The question is who has more to lose? Let me give an analogy. I’m a student at Dartmouth College, and on campus we have this street intersection which is usually quite busy. A lot of times students will walk across the street without looking and a car, who has the right of way, will have to slam on the brakes in order to avoid hitting the student. Now the car has the green light; it has the right of way. But even though the car has the right of way, the car must stop by law. Why? Because the student has more to lose. The driver will lose some time, and cause wear and tear to his car, but the student could be seriously injured or even die if the car doesn’t stop. This is the same idea behind abortion. Granted, having a baby changes your life FOREVER and is nowhere near as easy to recover from as simply being inconvenienced a few seconds. But the alternative is that the baby dies. Period.

    I hope this answers some of the objections you raised. This is the first time I’ve seen this blog, and I look forward to dialogue, and learning more what your side believes. Thanks, and God love you.

    Nick

  46. Another important point as to the “artificial womb” scenario is that we ALREADY have thousands of born children who are unwanted/neglected/abused and aren’t adopted or fostered by caring families. To put it bluntly, if pro-lifers really want to take a stance, they should be adopting these children and providing for them. Or at least pushing for legislation that would provide for them.

    Abortion is “murder”, but I guess once that kid’s out of the womb, it damn well better fend for itself.

  47. I am curious. On the flipside, considering it’s a woman’s absolute right over her own body, how stringent (if at all?) do you wish legal abortion to be?

    Personally, I support abortion at any time, for any reason, with no restrictions. I figure it isn’t my place to decide whether any woman’s reasons for an abortion are valid. If I needed one, I’d get it and I’d resent anyone else having a say in it, so I will extend that same courtesy to anyone else. In the case of minors, and here I’m only talking of extreme minors (say 13 and under), I think it would probably be a good idea for there to be some counseling, etc., but definitely not parental consent. Although I’d think that abortion would/should be the immediate first choice for a very young girl (again, 13 or younger), even if I wouldn’t force her into it if she were opposed. And, I don’t think that anyone who doesn’t own the ovaries in question (and by own, I mean bodily attached to) should have any final say in any of these decisions.

    And I also support complete state funding of all contraception, abortion, and sex ed, with guaranteed access to all of these for everyone, regardless of income, race, class, etc.

  48. I am curious. On the flipside, considering it’s a woman’s absolute right over her own body, how stringent (if at all?) do you wish legal abortion to be?

    I think the only abortion restrictions should be practical medical restrictions like any other procedure. As in, the medical community should define safe and practical standards, and those should be followed, and, say, selling a woman half an abortion pill or skipping out on safety procedures to make more profit should be illegal. Women should also be informed of the procedure just like someone getting any other procedure should be informed, but there shouldn’t be any mandatory waiting periods or false information presented. I’m against limiting abortion by a woman’s age, amount of time pregnant, or silly restricting like mandating that abortion clinic hallways must be six feet wide. If you give women birth control and the knowledge of how to use it, then most women will be able to avoid the unwanted pregnancy that leads to abortion in the first place, and if abortion is safe and available to those who need it then women will choose to get it done as soon as possible, so late term abortions will pretty much only be in emergencies and very special circumstances (they pretty much are now, with 90% of abortions happening in the 1st trimester). I believe abortion is between a woman and her doctor, and no one besides the woman is capable of making the best decision for her, her body, and her life.

  49. JivinJ: Maybe I need to ask a couple more fundamental questions. Do you believe that abortion is murder? If not, what class of crime do you consider it to be?

  50. Nick, I commend your honesty in answering, even if I would immediately run from any country which actually enforced the laws that you propose. And I’m nearly infertile. I expect most women would get away from any such place if they could. If that matters.

    But I don’t think that you’ve answered the fire in an IVF clinic question very well. Basically, the question is this: 101 people are in grave danger. You can save one of them or you can save 100 of them. Apart from the obvious concern that it’s a trick question, this question shouldn’t be a hard one to answer. How can it possibly be equivalent or better to save only one when you could have saved 100?

  51. As in, the medical community should define safe and practical standards, and those should be followed, and, say, selling a woman half an abortion pill or skipping out on safety procedures to make more profit should be illegal.

    It is illegal. The legal term is “malpractice”.

  52. Hey, we got a live one! Nick, the absolutist.

    Now, Jivin’, does Nick speak for you? I sure hope so.

    Go forth, Nick, and preach the gospel. You are what the pro-life position means. And anyone who disagrees with you is not really pro-life.

    Go, preach it.

    And when they see what you stand for, the rest of them shall come unto us.

  53. Every time I read about anti-choicers, this quote leaps to mind:

    If you’re pre-born, you’re fine; if you’re pre-school, you’re fucked…
    – George Carlin

  54. Thank you so much for your well-written and well-reasoned post. I have long asked why it is acceptable to so many “pro-lifers” to make an exception to allow abortions to women who were raped or whose lives are in danger. As you point out, it’s not the embryos fault.
    Nice to see the argument built upon.
    Would it be okay for me to post your blog on my myspace? I would, of course, cite you appropriately.

  55. Hi Jill,
    So are you saying you wouldn’t have this problem (meaning the how to punish women who have abortions problem) if a prolife law simply stated it was illegal to induce abortions and didn’t include items like “human embryos are persons” or “life begins at conception?”

    Murder is a legal term so I’m not comfortable saying killing a human being is necessarily “murder” – there are other words used to describe the killing of a human being including manslaughter. It should also be recognized that women who get abortions aren’t the ones doing the actual killing (unless they’re self-aborting).

    I don’t think a human embryo should have the exact same rights as you and I (for example – I don’t believe embryos should have the right to vote) but I do believe it shouldn’t be legal to intentionally kill them.

    If you’re ok with that, then fine — but then at least admit that you recognize that there’s a difference between a fetus and a born person.

    Of course there’s a difference between a born person and a fetus. There are a number of differences. The born person is larger, more developed, less dependent and in a different location. However, I don’t see those as good reasons for why it should be legal to kill one and not the other.

    Isn’t this what some pro-choicers argue?

    Not really. Even pro-choicers who acknowledge the unborn are living human beings still think it should be legal to kill them, right? The burning building scenario does nothing to address that – it merely seems to be an exercise in trying to prove prolifers don’t really believe what they say they believe. I could potentially do the same thing with someone opposed to the death penalty. Who do you save – the award-winning scientist or 12 death row inmates who are admitted rapists and killers? If you save the scientist I don’t see how that proves death row inmates aren’t living human beings. I also don’t see how it proves someone opposed to the death penalty doesn’t really believe what they say they believe – that the death penalty shouldn’t be legal.

    Because they’re still forcing women to use their bodies to support another person, without the woman’s consent.

    But that’s not really an insidious goal, is it? It’s a consequence of protecting unborn human beings (which you don’t agree with) but it’s not a devious reason (punishing women for having sex) behind what prolifers do.

    One of the things that often bothers me about your writing is how to me it seems you are very prone to put evil motives on those opposed to abortion or who are against something you favor while just accepting wholesale anything a pro-choice group says – for example – the Nigeria abortion statistics – did you ever check what the methodology of those estimates was before proclaiming them as true.

  56. I also comment Nick in his polite honesty. I disagree with him heartily, but at least he answered the questions to the best of his ability.

    Switching topics, I think artificial wombs are a terrible idea. As though this country (and the whole world) doesn’t have a hard enough time caring for it’s citizens already. Imagine what a bunch of rogue, parentless babies would mean. Who’s gonna care for them once they’re viable? What – are we really going to pump that much more money into the foster care system? It’s just very, very troubling to think of artificial wombs as a “solution” to anything.

  57. But that’s not really an insidious goal, is it?

    Forcing some people to allow their bodies to be used for the benefit of others isn’t an insidious goal? Even leaving aside the issue of the personhood or lack thereof of a single celled organism such as a fertlized or unfertilized egg, how is it ok to force one person to physically support another? Would you also support laws that mandated that an unwilling person be forced to donate bone marrow (or peripheral blood stem cells) to a person who needed a transplant if the potential but unwilling donor was the best match for the potential recipient? People in need of hematopoietic stem cell transplants are unquestionably living humans and it is not at all uncommon that they have only a single match and so will die if the person who matches them doesn’t consent to donate. And donating HSC is much safer than completing a pregnancy.

  58. Of course there’s a difference between a born person and a fetus. There are a number of differences. The born person is larger, more developed, less dependent and in a different location. However, I don’t see those as good reasons for why it should be legal to kill one and not the other.

    Ok, but is that a good reason to make the punishment for killing them different?

    An adult is larger, more developed, less dependent and has more connections to other people than a child. Should the punishment for killing an adult be harsher than the punishment for killing a child? If not, why should the punishment for killing a fetus be less harsh than for killing a child?

  59. It should also be recognized that women who get abortions aren’t the ones doing the actual killing (unless they’re self-aborting).

    Why focus on this technicality? They would essentially be hit-women. Just ’cause they’re not literally “pulling the trigger” doesn’t mean they don’t want (and order) the z/e/f dead.

    Unless there are doctors out there who perform abortions on women who don’t want them, didn’t ask for them, and never made an appointment, how are women not just as guilty as the docs?

  60. Well, Nick, I have to give you credit for largely consistent answers, and responding to what is obviously a somewhat hostile audience. Responding to an ectopic pregnancy by removing the fallopian tube, rather than applying methotrexate, and then acting as if the death of the embryo is a big surprise (OK, “unintended consequence”) seems a bit of a stretch, but OK.

    Can I ask you a few more questions? (1) Should anti-abortion laws have an exception for rape? (From your answers, I assume “no,” but am just checking.) (2) Do you think it is morally acceptable to kill a serial killer whom the police will do nothing about? If so, do you think it’s morally acceptable to kill an abortion provider?

    Regarding the Judith Jarvis Thompson argument, can any of you lawyers/law students out there tell me if Nick is correct on the law? Do I in fact legally have to brake for jaywalkers? I know I can’t go out of my way to hit them, but do I actually legally have to slam on the brakes? My impression was that I brake out of altruism, rather than to comply with the law. Similarly, my impression is that if I see someone drowning, I am legally free to go on my merry way without helping them. Nick’s argument is that legally, we need to balance the harms to the mother and the embryo. My impression is that generally I have no legal obligation to help anyone else.

  61. Because they’re still forcing women to use their bodies to support another person, without the woman’s consent.

    But that’s not really an insidious goal, is it? It’s a consequence of protecting unborn human beings (which you don’t agree with) but it’s not a devious reason (punishing women for having sex) behind what prolifers do.

    Of course it is. We don’t force life support on anyone for any other reason except pregnancy. And unwanted pregnancy is generally only possible by women having sex (I’m just going to assume that if one is pregnant by IVF or some other artificial means that it is a wanted pregnancy and so abortion isn’t really a question except in cases of the health of the woman or fetus), and since pregnancy is literally the only case that this forced life support is even an issue, of course it is punishment for women having sex. Especially since many, if not most, “pro-life” people also oppose access to contraception and sex ed.

  62. What about high risk pregnancies? A friend of mine had to get an abortion because if (big IF) the baby had been carried to term then she and the baby surely would have died during child birth, and what about a woman whom is raped? I know I certainly would not want to carry a monsters child for 9 months. There are reasons other then being “slutty” for aborting a fetus. And if they do end up outlawing abortions then what? Woman once again start preforming at home abortions with coat hangers and basically ruining her uterus and any further ability to conceive. And anyway abortions aren’t preformed after the 1st trimester unless it’s an emergency like Marle says. I actually agree whole heartedly with a lot of waht Marle says. Very very wise internet-er there.

  63. Ugh.

    RE: “The born person is larger, more developed, less dependent and in a different location.”

    A woman is not “a location.”

    Ok, *not* going to rant.

  64. I’m just going to assume that if one is pregnant by IVF or some other artificial means that it is a wanted pregnancy and so abortion isn’t really a question except in cases of the health of the woman or fetus

    Actually, a lot of IVF fertility treatments use the “scattershot” approach of fertilizing several eggs in the hope that some of them will implant and develop properly. However, sometimes multiple embryos implant, which is why there has been an increase in multiple births in humans in recent years. Prospective parents may choose to abort some of these embryos, both for financial considerations and for the health of the mother.

  65. So are you saying you wouldn’t have this problem (meaning the how to punish women who have abortions problem) if a prolife law simply stated it was illegal to induce abortions and didn’t include items like “human embryos are persons” or “life begins at conception?”

    JivinJ, the question is for what reason would you have such a law? What is so bad about abortion that you would make it illegal? My assumption is that you think it should be illegal because you think that an embryo has the same moral status as any other human being. Am I correct in that assumption? If so, why would you treat the intentional killing of an embryo any differently than the intentional killing of any other human being?

  66. IVF promotes babies without sex.

    This is distinctly off topic, but why is babies without sex a bad thing? (Assuming you think that it is. If not, I apologize for my misreading.)

  67. Hi Thomas. I certainly would not say that anyone who disagrees with me isn’t pro-life. I could very well be wrong about is there should be a punishment or not. The thing is, the evil of abortion isn’t dependant on my arguments or what Mother Theresa says. Embryology says that at conception, a unique human being is present, and willfully destroying a human being is murder. That’s it. God love you, Thomas.

    Hi Dianne. Yeah, it is a very difficult question to answer. If I didn’t make it clear before, though, I would liken it to asking if I had to save my mother or 100 strangers. Even then, I simlpy can’t choose. I hope that makes sense. It is very, very difficult, though. The quote about “babies without sex”, yeah, I realized that it was a bit off topic and I almost didn’t write it. It gets into a whole other issue regarding the role of sex and marriage and all that. But it really isn’t the post to get into. God love you Dianne.

    Hi Autumn Harvest. Right, I do not believe there should be an excption in the case of rape. While it is a horrible, horrible crime, comitting an act of violence against the innocent third party who never asked to be part of the “fathers” sickning act doen’t somehow “undo” what he did. Women who are raped need our fullest love and supposrt, but it is not fair to kill the baby for a crime that the rapist comitted. (my comparison with the street crossing most applys here). Also, no I don’t think it is accptable to kill a serial killer who the police will do nothing about. We can’t be vigilanties and start taking the alw into our own hands- this only brings about chaos. (a reason why its wrong to bomb abortion clinics) So the same holds for abortionists. But to tie this back with what I was saying to Thomas, these are just my opinions, and I believe in love and charity. God love you, Autumn.

  68. If I didn’t make it clear before, though, I would liken it to asking if I had to save my mother or 100 strangers. Even then, I simlpy can’t choose

    Nick, in the post I specified that you didn’t know or have a connection to the child in question. So try this: If you had to choose between saving one stranger or 100 strangers, what do you do?

  69. Even though I’m pro-choice and don’t think fetuses or embryos have any moral value or rights, I really don’t see why people think positions like that of JivinJ, or of the writers s/he linked to, are absurd. Perhaps it’s a bit of a “gotcha” to note that few people who hold up signs saying “abortion is murder” really think it ought to be treated like murder in all respects, but I think we can all understand their rhetorical point, and it’s also easy to see, as J said, that -of course- not all killing of human life is treated the same by our legal system.

    Given just how dramatically different the abortion situation is from killing real people, -of course- it would be treated differently. We differentiate criminal sanctions not merely by the gravity of the evil, but by the needs of deterrence, the degree of culpability in intent, and all sorts of other factors; it seems straightforward to show that -all- of those would push very strongly towards lenience for mothers but not for doctors, if you held the (false!) belief that fetuses have full moral standing.

    You toss off the J. J. Thomson reference casually, but the whole point of the article is that even if they really DO have rights, that alone tells you very little about what the institutional response should be–in other words, the very point of the article is to get beyond simplistic ‘if rights -> murder -> life imprisonment!’ thinking.

    Why is this so baffling? Is it really just the use of the ‘murder’ rhetoric? I wouldn’t think it such a strike against, say, pacifists, if they happened to use anti-murder rhetoric while declining to advocate harsh legal penalties for soldiers; I’d understand it to be just that, rhetoric.

    I do think that it’s precisely by drawing attention to all of the disanalogies that the greatest progress in converting pro-lifers can be made, but I think the way to do it is the JJT way: by showing that their premises might actually lead to pro-choice conclusions. I think it might well be counterproductive to insist (wrongly!) that their premises actually lead to -more- radically evil policies than they believe them to.

  70. Ok Nick, I have a question for you. It is wrong to take any medication that could kill an embryo, right? Let’s say a pregnant woman finds out she has cancer and must start chemotherapy right away, lest she die in 6 months. Chemo is of course very bad for embryos, and I’m pretty sure cause a miscarriage. If the woman undergoes chemo to save her life and has a miscarriage (we’re assuming it’s a wanted pregnancy) is she still a murderer?

    And your logic on the ectopic pregnancy is highly specious. By those standards, it could be said that hormonal issues are causing unrestricted growth in the uterus, and in order to stop the suffering of the woman, the lining must be scraped out. If an embryo is killed in the meantime, it was only an unintended side effect, and therefore not an abortion. Now, am I talking about endometriosis, or pregnancy?

    Furthermore, you say taking drugs that can make it more difficult for a fetus to implant (not impossible, and I’ll tell you why in a minute) due to lining issues is tantamount to abortion. Well, what if a woman has an incomplete miscarriage and needs to have the products of conception scraped out of her uterus. After a D&C it can take a while for the lining to regrow and be fully functional. If she gets pregnant 2 weeks later and the embryo doesn’t implant due to lining issues, is that a murder?

    Lastly Nick, here’s your promised biology lesson. After ovulation, the corpus luteum secretes progesterone, which matures and thickens the lining to prepare it for implantation. This is called the luteal phase of the menstrual cycle. Doctors believe that one needs sufficient progesterone to have a luteal phase of 10 days to make a pregnancy possible. If a woman has a luteal phase of less than that, it’s highly likely that any embryo cannot implant. THis happens naturally, and regularly (I have this problem myself, and have had two early miscarriages because of it). The birth control pill mimics this effect. However, I have an acquaintance who has a luteal phase of 5 days. That means her period starts before it’s probably that an embryo could implant (usually day 7-10). She is currently 4 and a half weeks pregnant. This, and the fact that people get pregnant on the pill every year proves that the pill (or low progesterone) do not make implantation impossible, just a lot less likely. Therefore, only an idiot would consider the pill to be an abortifacient.

  71. Hey Jill. I guess the answer is that right now, I simply don’t know what I would do. I certainly don’t have an answer for everything, I know very little. I’ll try and look around and see what other people think, but right now, the answer is that I don’t know. God love you Jill.

  72. About birth control… many, many fertilized eggs never attach and thus are naturally aborted. I see no problem with birth control doing the same thing that your body does naturally. I also think that people who want to force rape/incest victims to carry a baby to full term are just sick sick sick. Also who are these people to force women to undergo a very dangerous medical procedure? Childbirth is still horribly risky. But really, again the point that needs to be remembered is what happens to these babies afterward. Has Nick adopted an unwanted child? I want to start seeing these people put more money into the hands of children and less into printing up signs with pictures of stillborn babies.

  73. I’m pro-life. I think they should be fined, not put in jail, and the abortionist who preforms the procedure closed down and fined heavily.

  74. comitting an act of violence against the innocent third party who never asked to be part of the “fathers” sickning act doen’t somehow “undo” what he did.

    Abortion is not an attempt to undo the rape. It’s an attempt to no longer be pregnant, period.

  75. I’m surprised that no one has yet asked what should happen to the father of the aborted child. What if (because this happens frequently, I’m sure) the man who impregnated the woman wants her to have an abortion, she doesn’t want to, but in the end, she gives in? Maybe he threatens her by saying he will not be in the child’s life, he won’t pay child support, or will flee the country, etc., leaving her to be a single parent, and that scares her? Should he be the only one punished, or have a larger punishment than the woman? Or, how would you even prove that the man pressured her into it in the first place?

    Or, what if they both make the decision together, and she has the abortion, how WOULD you prove that he helped in the decision-making? If he doesn’t admit to it, then how would you know? Just by the woman saying so? For some reason, that dosn’t sound like it would go over to well. I imagine something along the lines of the man being “detached” from the situation and not truly knowing what he agreed to or something.

    The point here is that, if women were held legally accountable and faced prison time for their “crime” that they committed, how far would the system be willing to go to ensure that everyone “guilty” of this “crime” were punished, that no one got off too easy?

  76. Some people talk about the sexual freedom of women. Now, there is a consequence for every action, whether it be good or bad. Why do people think that they shouldn’t be responsible for their actions when it comes to sex? If someone goes and eats every parsel of food in front of them and becomes fat, isn’t it generally their fault? If you take actions, there are consequences. That baby (with the exception of rape) is there b/c of something you intentionally did. You talk about forcing woman to use their bodies to protect someone else, but it’s not the same case scenario b/c it is the mother’s along with the father’s actions that caused that person to be there in the first place.
    As far as charging someone who has an abortion, no there isn’t an easy answer to that. Yes, I believe that the fetus is just as important as another person. I think that a punishment should be administered in a manner that would create good. You have a person in society who has done a lot of good. They spend their days helping people but find out they are pregnant and get an abortion. Would it be useful to society to place that person in prison? I’d say most likely not. Would it be helpful to that person and to society to have that person see a counselor? I’d say yes. Especially considering the statistics on how many woman go through mental and emotional issues after an abortion. No, I don’t remember exact numbers. You are oversimplifying the situation. You can’t only take one factor into account, that is how things are misconstrued. How many people here have actually seen what an abortion looks like? I have, and I’ll tell you it’s not pretty. It’s very gruesome.
    People should be held accountable for their actions. That’s one of the main problems with today’s society. Nobody wants to take responsibility for anything anymore. They just want to accuse other people of things.
    There’s talk about having no legal obligation to help anybody else? That’s pretty damn rotten. If you were in danger of being murdered and there was someone standing right next to you capable of preventing it but doesn’t, oh well, they had no obligation to help you. You’re dead. No future. No chance at life. You don’t matter to anyone.
    Pretty rotten, isn’t it?

  77. Actually, a lot of IVF fertility treatments use the “scattershot” approach of fertilizing several eggs in the hope that some of them will implant and develop properly. However, sometimes multiple embryos implant, which is why there has been an increase in multiple births in humans in recent years. Prospective parents may choose to abort some of these embryos, both for financial considerations and for the health of the mother.

    I knew that. I don’t know why I didn’t consider it. Of course, I’d support selective abortions (or reductions or whatever you want to call it) in those cases too.

  78. Fined? Wow, what a deterrant!
    Why a fine? Do we fine other people who intentionally kill born people? If you’re unwilling to hand out a harsh punishment for getting an abortion, then why do you even think it should be criminal? If it’s not so bad that women deserve jail time for it, then quit trying to outlaw it. If all you’re going to do is fine women, abortion can’t be much worse than speeding.

  79. There’s talk about having no legal obligation to help anybody else? That’s pretty damn rotten.

    No, the talk is about having no legal obligation about donating parts of your body to help anybody else. So, unless you support forced mandatory blood drives and forced mandatory donation of a lung, a kidney, sections of liver, or bone marrow for a specific segment of the population and no others, then it’s not the same thing.

  80. KJ, I’m a very responsible person. I’ve always taken responsibility for my actions, and if I were to become pregnant I’d do the same – by getting myself an abortion as soon as possible.

    Abortion IS taking responsibility. You assess your situation, think about your options, consider what’s best for you and your family (if you have one), and make a decision.
    Know what “not taking responsibility” looks like? It’s getting pregnant, going into denial about it, smoking and drinking for 9 months, neglecting to get pre-natal care and giving birth in your backyard without telling a soul.
    Aborting is often the MOST responsible thing a pregnant woman can do, depending on her circumstances.

  81. There’s talk about having no legal obligation to help anybody else? That’s pretty damn rotten.

    There IS no legal obligation to help anybody else. (Except in limited circumstances–for example, if you’re the parent and it’s your kid, or if you caused the situation that requires help.)

    That’s why you, KJ, are not legally obligated to empty your bank account and hand over the contents to pregnant rape victims. Pretty rotten, huh?

    Granted, having a baby changes your life FOREVER and is nowhere near as easy to recover from as simply being inconvenienced a few seconds

    Nick, I appreciate your honesty and your logical consistency, but this is unintentionally hilarious.

  82. …And, if it is no worse than speeding, then why all the fuss about it in the first place? If pro-lifers think that it’s murder and many rally, fight, and are activists in some way or another about, and feel so strongly on the issue, why does the crime in question require such a small consequence?

    Why do people think that they shouldn’t be responsible for their actions when it comes to sex?

    So, if I get pregnant, even though I used available means of contraception, and I didn’t want to have a child, but was made to anyway, I am sure my kid would love me lots when I told him/her: “I didn’t really want you. You’re just a ‘consequence,’ a ‘punishment,’ for having sex. So, make sure you don’t have sex until you’re married, otherwise you’ll have to raise a kid, like I did! I sure regret that!”

    …Not that I think anybody would really tell a child those things… But, still. Is that how we want our children to grow up? As a punishment, to a consequence to a bad decision? I don’t think so.

  83. “Now, there is a consequence for every action, whether it be good or bad.”

    And abortion isn’t a consequence how, again? Treating forced pregnancy, childbirth, and parenthood like they’re the right punishment for daring to have sex is like insisting that everybody who gets skin cancer be refused treatment because just getting the mass excised isn’t a real consequence for their days of running around without sunscreen.

    You have several choices if you have an unintended pregnancy. They’re all “consequences” of sex. The fact that it’s just motherhood that’s harped on as some sort of stick to keep women in line–like abortion is a “get out of jail free” card–is dishonest and kind of telling about how certain people think of children.

    “How many people here have actually seen what an abortion looks like? I have, and I’ll tell you it’s not pretty. It’s very gruesome.”

    Yes, and? Nobody here thinks abortion involves rainbows, kittens, and wildflowers. I mean, seriously. Have you watched any other medical procedure? Pretty much nothing that involves surgery or the expulsion of tissue is pretty. Birth isn’t pretty. C-sections are, in fact, pretty gruesome. Something being gory or awful-looking has no bearing on whether or not the procedure is moral, beneficial, or necessary. People need to stop trotting that out like it’s an argument.

  84. SarahMC –

    I knew a pro-lifer whose response to that was:

    “That’s not responsibility, responsibility would be owning up for the ‘Oops’ and raising the child. If you don’t want children, don’t have sex.”

    I didn’t really know how to respond.

  85. Yeah, if I had a nickel for every time I heard that one, I’d be rich enough to have 1,000 abortions without serious financial repurcussions (’cause, you know, the punishment’s a fine, muhaha!).

    Seriously, though; that mindset completely ignores the fact that plenty of abortions are performed on WANTED fetuses.

  86. Nick, it sounds like what you’re proposing is that very few women who abort their pregnancies could be considered in sound mental health. That still seems deeply problematic–let’s imagine that even as few as 20% of women will identify as prepared to consider an abortion if they were to have an unwanted pregnancy. That means that of the roughly 1,200,000 legal abortions in the U.S. every year, an extremely conservative figure of 240,000 were already prepared to have an abortion before they apparently came down with a fit of hysterics due to becoming pregnant. That’s 240,000 clear premeditated murders. About 1.4% of murders currently result in the death penalty: that’s maybe 3,300 more executions every year. Not to mention the other 230,000 life prisoners we would need to incarcerate.

    So even if “you’d have to be crazy to have an abortion” were to fly 80% of the time (and I’m not even talking about what that argument would mean in terms of infantalizing women), that could still mean an incredible glut of incarcerations and executions. Even if we were to imagine that abortions were to drop to pre-Roe levels (around 580,000/year, according to the CDC), that’s a shitload of women getting thrown into prison and jabbed with a lethal injection.

    “Although most life-threatening pregnancies need to be treated on a case-by-case basis, the general guideline is to have the pregnancy go as far as it can and then induce labor in the hope of saving both mother and baby. Sometimes this is not possible, and labor is induced too early and the baby dies.”

    You’re ignoring the flipside: sometimes labor is induced too late and the mother dies. In that world, a viable human life is unnecessarily wasted based on the hope that a fetus will reach viability. I can’t imagine the medical calculation that would justify that result.

    Let’s do a thought experiment, similar to the ectopic pregnancy. Let’s imagine a world in which it were possible to save either the fetus or the mother, but not both. Who do we save? I know that world isn’t likely to occur, but it’s an important question nevertheless, because it establishes the relative values of those lives. If the existence of a non-viable fetus is really equivalent to that of a mother, the answer to that question would be “flip a coin–it doesn’t matter.” I imagine that a fair number of pro-lifers would be fairly uncomfortable with that answer, however.

    “The final question you asked, just simply cannot be answered. One cannot choose between the worth of human life. All human life is sacred, and so one person’s life is as valuable as 100 peoples life (infinity = infinity X 100, hehe). You just can’t choose between who is more valuable. It is analogous to asking ‘who would you save in a fire? your mom or your 100 of your friends? or 100 strangers?’.”

    It’s not at all analogous–Jill was very specific that all of these figures are complete strangers. There’s no conflict of interest here.

    That kind of reasoning justifies terrible things, Nick. Let’s do another thought experiment. One person has a rare disease: he has to eat a living person’s heart every day to stay alive. In your world, it is the moral equivalent for this person to die and the 25,000 people he needs to kill to live a full life to die. That seems intuitively false by any reasonable moral standard.

    You can claim that a situation where that choice needs to be made will never arise, but it does. Medical triage is a great example of where it can be necessary to save several and allow one to die. Mathematical cutenesses aside, the world is several people richer for having saved the many and sacrificed the one.

    So I think the question stands: why not save the 1000 embryos? I wonder if it’s maybe that the world would be a richer place if you saved the toddler. And if maybe that implies that the life status of an embryo is more complicated that you make it out to be.

  87. Oh, and just because you don’t approve of the way in which a woman handles her situation, doesn’t mean she’s failed to take responsibility.

  88. [Abortion] doesn’t somehow “undo” what [a rapist] did.

    I see this weird strawman from “pro-lifers” a lot. “Pro-lifers” know that the actuality of what they’re saying doesn’t sit well with the American public (or anyone with a sense of decency), so they have to make up a strawman.

  89. Some people talk about the sexual freedom of women. Now, there is a consequence for every action, whether it be good or bad. Why do people think that they shouldn’t be responsible for their actions when it comes to sex?

    As others have asked, why do you think that getting an abortion isn’t taking responsibility for their actions? Getting pregnant is a possible consequence of having sex, but, lucky for women, there are multiple responses to that consequence. Getting an abortion is an action- it’s taking responsibility and doing something about the situation.

    If someone goes and eats every parsel of food in front of them and becomes fat, isn’t it generally their fault?

    So? Do we deny people medical options just because we don’t like the actions that they took to get there? Particularly when there’s nothing wrong with the actions? If someone gets in a car accident, even if the accident was “their fault”, we don’t deny them medical treatment on the grounds that “You need to accept responsibility for your actions.” That’s just insane.

    You talk about forcing woman to use their bodies to protect someone else, but it’s not the same case scenario b/c it is the mother’s along with the father’s actions that caused that person to be there in the first place.

    Again… so what? It could be that there were precautions that failed- in which case the fetus is actually there in spite of the actions on the woman and man’s parts. And, again, we don’t deny people medical treatment even when the medical problem was preventable and largely a result of actions on that person’s part.

    Would it be helpful to that person and to society to have that person see a counselor? I’d say yes. Especially considering the statistics on how many woman go through mental and emotional issues after an abortion. No, I don’t remember exact numbers.

    That’s awfully convenient, isn’t it? What about all of the women who go through post-partum depression or pyschosis? That’s a pretty sizable number, too.

    You are oversimplifying the situation. You can’t only take one factor into account, that is how things are misconstrued. How many people here have actually seen what an abortion looks like? I have, and I’ll tell you it’s not pretty. It’s very gruesome.

    So was the mass of blood, tissue and calcium that was sitting in the dish when I got my impacted wisdom teeth broken apart and removed. So is giving birth. So is open heart surgery. So was the mess of blood, tissue and bone from my father’s knee replacement. That something looks gross doesn’t make it immoral.

    There’s talk about having no legal obligation to help anybody else? That’s pretty damn rotten. If you were in danger of being murdered and there was someone standing right next to you capable of preventing it but doesn’t, oh well, they had no obligation to help you. You’re dead. No future. No chance at life. You don’t matter to anyone.
    Pretty rotten, isn’t it?

    And yet, we don’t have legal obligations to directly help people. If someone can help at little to no risk, and chooses not to? Sure, I’ll agree, that’s a shitty thing. But, no, I don’t think we should have a legal obligation.

  90. almost like the old “I’m pro-choice, but I personally would never have an abortion” line.
    PM, since you brought it up, that is pretty much how I feel and I suppose I give legalized abortion a relatively conservative embrace, but I strongly believe any government should provide for its constituents free of any bias. A respectable middleground, if possible, at the very least.

    Thomas, ks, Marle, thanks for the reply. I totally agree, up the sex ed. I guess I cannot reconcile a totally unrestricted policy for it as I do see a viable fetus as human life (not even morally speaking, but scientifically). I would probably lean towards a gestational timeframe, first trimester; for me, I do not find aborting a fetus that can be delivered a preterm baby justifiable, even reckless.

    An interesting implication, well at least for me, should a fetus not be considered a human being until conception, that would mean, say, a man who kills a woman will have just the same moral/criminal weight as when he kills a 8-month pregnant woman. Huh.

  91. Why do people think that they shouldn’t be responsible for their actions when it comes to sex? If someone goes and eats every parsel of food in front of them and becomes fat, isn’t it generally their fault?

    No one stops a fat person from going into weight watchers, or even getting surgery, to attempt to not be fat anymore. No one tells them it’s all their fault and they shouldn’t go on a diet because they chose to be fat. So that’s a really stupid analogy.

    Yes, I believe that the fetus is just as important as another person. I think that a punishment should be administered in a manner that would create good. You have a person in society who has done a lot of good. They spend their days helping people but find out they are pregnant and get an abortion. Would it be useful to society to place that person in prison? I’d say most likely not. Would it be helpful to that person and to society to have that person see a counselor? I’d say yes.

    Wait wait. So a fetus is just as important as any other person, but counseling should be the punishment for killing it? Would you give a woman counseling if she killed her neighbor? What if she got really depressed afterwards, which so many women do when they kill their neighbors?

    Face it. You don’t see abortion the same as murder.

  92. I will expand upon this later as I have very little time at present.

    I self identify as prolife but am not a fundementalist
    The question comes down to legal consistency and what kind of society is created by tolerance and non tolerance of ideas.

    Pro Choice & anti Gun

    A Gun May kill an abortion WILL kill

    Guilt

    In a death Penalty case most defendants are guilty of the crime and almost all are guilty of similar crimes and the defendant at least has the attempt at due process at the WORST.

    In abortion the defendant is guarenteed innocent beyond ANY doubt and Due process is opposed under the idea of privacy.

    What it comes down to is a feteus is treated like a Roman mine slave. Make use of it until it is used up (Stem cells and organ harvesting) and then dispose of it when all good is wrung from it.
    Any interferance is considered dictating what one may do with ones own property and is fanatically protected right.

    Once a slave class is accepted it is then easily expanded by increments. Check dutch Euthanasia laws.

  93. The fine answer is actually pretty telling. It reminds me of Amanda Marcotte’s frequent contention that the right wing looks the other way when women who can afford it get abortions and have birth control, but poor people ought to deny themselves sex and pleasure (since they shouldn’t be able to afford birth control, etc.). A fine would bear out the “okay for those who can afford it, punishment for those who can’t” idea quite neatly.

  94. Has anyone else noticed the way the gender of posters is generally playing out in this discussion?

  95. Licious, are you saying it’s inconsistent for someone to be pro-choice while never wanting or having an abortion herself? If so, HOW? Do you not know what the word “choice” means?

  96. anniejumps–

    last I checked, roy (who I’m assuming is a man) and i had written two very long posts defending abortion rights. I think the genders are actually working out fairly evenly…

  97. Well, I know just as many female pro-lifers as male pro-lifers, and I know a bunch of really passionate, eloquent male choice advocates (even if I only know them from the Interwebs).

  98. What? No. I was quoting the first line on my #99 post from PM’s– failed to italicize, sorry. I was explaining that I am that, while I won’t have it for myself, I am pro-choice, no contradictions there.

  99. Yes, Will, I appreciate the contributions of pro-choice male posters on this thread. I was more referring to the fact that the anti-choicers posting so far are (to my knowledge) men, except for claire. In that respect, I don’t think it’s working out fairly evenly, and I do find it interesting that this is the case.

  100. Jill,
    The differences between the born and unborn might not be a good reason to punish individuals who kill them differently but there could be other reasons. For example, not all individuals who kill born human beings given the same punishment. Some are given the death penalty, others get plead down to almost nothing based on how much evidence the prosecutor has against them or the small likelihood of them being convicted.

    Autumn Harvest,
    Our society treats the killing of human beings differently all the time. Laws attempt to provide punishments for actions and not every punishment is the same – some killings are viewed in a different light than other killings. Sometimes it’s based on the circumstances of the killing, sometimes it’s based on the evidence available, the chance of conviction, etc.

    KS, Dianne,
    By insidious goal – I mean a deceptive goal – the goal that is really behind the movement not what they say. For example, the prolife movement would have an insidious goal if they acted like they wanted to save unborn human beings but in fact didn’t give a rip about the unborn but really just wanted to punish women for having premarital sex. Prolifers who openly and truthfully state their goal is to make abortion illegal because they don’t think it should be legal to kill the unborn don’t have an insidious goal. They may have a goal you disagree with but it wouldn’t be insidious.

  101. What it comes down to is a feteus is treated like a Roman mine slave.

    Except, you know, Roman mine slaves are sentinent, self-aware people who feel a full range of emotions and physical sensations. They are moral agents who are aware of their circumstances.
    None of that can be said for Z/E/Fs. They’re not “defendants” in a trial. Abortion is not an action that’s taken in order to “punish” a poor, undeserving fetus. It’s done to end a pregnancy. Quit acting like Z/E/Fs deserve some sort of “trial” before they’re “found guilty.”

  102. Make use of it until it is used up (Stem cells and organ harvesting) and then dispose of it when all good is wrung from it.

    This line about stem cells really pisses me off as stem cells and abortion don’t have anything to do with each other.

    Stem cells usually come from unused IVF embryos that would otherwise end up destroyed.

    Get it? Flushed down the drain when people can no longer afford the storage fees. So, these cells that could potentially ease human suffering but instead get poured down the drain in order to make some people feel holier-than-thou.

    Ditto so-called ‘partial-birth abortion.’ All the partial birth abortion ban does is make it illegal for a doctor to remove an intact fetus from a woman, wash it off, and wrap it in a blanket so she could say goodbye to the fetus that couldn’t be carried to term because it had a disease or the mother’s health was in jeopardy. Instead, the doctor will be forced to cut the fetus into little pieces just so someone can feel holier-than-thou.

    Talk about not thinking about the consequences of your actions. The consequences of the agenda of the so-called pro-life movement are dead women and girls from septic abortions, lack of cures for horrific, painful medical conditions, increased emotional suffering for women who need late-term abortions for their wanted pregnancies, and an increase in abortions in general.

    I;ll say it again – talk about not taking responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

  103. If anyone doubts that the “pro-life” movement is really about women facing God’s chosen punishment for Teh Dirty Sexx, I submit as Exhibit A this gem:

    If you don’t want children, don’t have sex.

    Sex = reproduction. Wow. Someone go dissolve all the second marriages begun after menopause. And they say we’re the ones threatening marriage …

    It is all just an effort to enact in the laws of the nation a pelvic morality that agrees with some people’s religious beliefs.

  104. Take this hypothetical: There’s a fire in a fertility clinic. Inside the clinic there’s a three-year-old boy who you’ve never met and have absolutely no connection to. There are also 100 embryos in a box. You only have time to run into the clinic one time. You cannot carry the boy and the box at the same time. What do you do? Do you save 100, or do you save one?

    give the box to the little boy. tell him not to drop it. take a deep breath, bend from the knees, scoop up the little boy (who is holding the box) and haul ass. one person and 100 proto-people saved! (of course, damage to one’s own back may be incalculable…)

    as far as whether women who have abortions ought to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law – it would be easier to respect pro-lifers if they felt that way. at least they’d be consistent.

  105. lisious:

    I guess I cannot reconcile a totally unrestricted policy for it as I do see a viable fetus as human life (not even morally speaking, but scientifically). I would probably lean towards a gestational timeframe, first trimester; for me, I do not find aborting a fetus that can be delivered a preterm baby justifiable, even reckless.

    If a woman wants an abortion after viability, would you, as a compromise, say she should be allowed to induce labor early? Why or why not?

    I believe if first trimester abortions were universally available to all women (and having as few as one abortion clinic in a state means it’s not available to all women, even if it is legal) then 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions will only happen in emergencies and extreme cases. They’re already pretty rare now, at about 10% of abortions, and many of those are just for women who missed the first trimester cut-off by a couple of weeks. Women who get abortions want to get them done as soon in the pregnancy as possible. I think it’s better to help them do that rather than ignore the reasons the wait and then tell them it’s too late.

    An interesting implication, well at least for me, should a fetus not be considered a human being until conception, that would mean, say, a man who kills a woman will have just the same moral/criminal weight as when he kills a 8-month pregnant woman. Huh.

    I think you mean “born”, not “conception”. 😉

    Anyways, I don’t think murdering a pregnant woman is a whole lot worse than murdering a non-pregnant woman. I could understand having more legal protections for pregnant women because they are more vulnerable, or have assault that results in miscarriage be considered a special assault with worse penalties than normal, but I don’t see killing a fetus being a crime the same as murder in any scenario.

  106. Nick – you say that women who are going to die can choose to be put into labor and then give the “baby” anything we can to try to save its life. What if the labor is what is going to kill her, like in the case of people with poor hearts?

    This is one large why so many women would choose an abortion over adoption. You still have to have the child including all of the risks and expenses that you incur over that 9 month period. That is something I personally couldn’t handle right now, even if I didn’t have to sign up for 18+ years of supporting the thing.

    The best idea I have of how to tell when a child is viable or not for our current laws comes out of the same vien: flush it out and if it lives it was viable. If not, it’s done with.

    Having a child should be an incredible, wonderful, and planned thing. It should not EVER be a punishment. And for those who believe that rape victims should have no control over their bodies afterwards, let me tell you this: If, after having someone take me body and give me no control, I would immediately take control of my body back. I would either kill the little monster that he left there or I would kill myself. That is an instance where all you need in the world is to get control back and you will go to any length to get it.

    And no, “post abortion syndrome” is not that common. In fact, the American Psychological Association doesn’t recognize it as an actual syndrome. If you were sure about having the procedure, you will still be sure (and probably relieved) afterwards. If you weren’t sure, you should have taken more time to decide what you really wanted. Most people are sure.

    In a commentary in the Journal of the American Medical Association, Nada Stotland, M.D., former president of the Association of Women Psychiatrists, stated:

    “Significant psychiatric sequelae after abortion are rare, as documented in numerous methodologically sound prospective studies in the United States and in European countries. Comprehensive reviews of this literature have recently been performed and confirm this conclusion. The incidence of diagnosed psychiatric illness and hospitalization is considerably lower following abortion than following childbirth…Significant psychiatric illness following abortion occurs most commonly in women who were psychiatrically ill before pregnancy, in those who decided to undergo abortion under external pressure, and in those who underwent abortion in aversive circumstances, for example, abandonment.”

  107. annejumps–
    (sorry for misspelling your handle)
    You’re right, but it’s also important to point out that we’re sampling from about 3 pro-life posters.

  108. So, if I get pregnant, even though I used available means of contraception, and I didn’t want to have a child, but was made to anyway, I am sure my kid would love me lots when I told him/her: “I didn’t really want you. You’re just a ‘consequence,’ a ‘punishment,’ for having sex. So, make sure you don’t have sex until you’re married, otherwise you’ll have to raise a kid, like I did! I sure regret that!”

    …Not that I think anybody would really tell a child those things…

    There are definitely parents out there who tell their children these things. I have been witness to it on two separate occasions. “You’re my punishment,” blah blah blah. It’s ugly.

  109. Marle, a lot of genetic abnormalities are not discovered until after the first trimester, often by amnio. Lots of women who want to have children do not think they are up to the task of raising a special needs child, or think that bringing a child into the world with a painful and fatal defect is a bad thing. For that reason, abortion ought to remain available throughout the pregnancy.

  110. [quote]An interesting implication, well at least for me, should a fetus not be considered a human being until [birth], that would mean, say, a man who kills a woman will have just the same moral/criminal weight as when he kills a 8-month pregnant woman. Huh.[/quote]
    An 8 month pregnant woman is a weird case, though, because the fetus is viable. Even Roe recognizes that the constitution doesn’t protect aborting viable fetuses, even though it doesn’t take on the issue of life’s beginning. But there has to be a way of distinguishing between most abortions and the 8-month pregnant woman…

  111. But there has to be a way of distinguishing between most abortions and the 8-month pregnant woman…

    Pro-lifers won’t, though. All abortions are done theminutebeforebirth, if you ask them. Doctors must always ripaparttheirlimbs!

  112. annejumps,
    yeah. and i wouldn’t be at all surprised if pro-lifers are mostly men–i just tend to chafe at the suspicion and disbelief directed toward feminist and pro-choice men. I know your post wasn’t an example of that, but that was what motivated my response.

  113. Did you all know that people have used herbs and such for centuries to get rid of unwanted children? Yes even the Puritans used them. Why does all the pro-lifer’s seem to think that abortion is a new thing, brought on by all that nasty out-of-wedlock sex of the post-pill world? Wake up.

  114. I also think that people who want to force rape/incest victims to carry a baby to full term are just sick sick sick.

    Vail, I see what you’re saying, but I also feel like I have to give Nick credit for consistency and honesty here. If someone really thinks abortion should be illegal because it’s murder, and that the woman should be forced to carry the baby to term, it’s not clear to me why it matters how the conception occurred. I’m never clear if pro-lifers who support an exception for rape really want such an exception, or if they just see it as a necessary political expedient.

  115. Abortion is not about guilt or innocence it is about the right of human beings to make personal moral and medical judgments without government interference. There should not be a popular referendum on my medical care.

    The culture, individuals, churches can take whatever position on the issue they like but in a free society they cannot impose those decisions on others who do not share their religious beliefs when it comes to how and when your family is formed and raised.

    The right of parents to determine their children’s futures combined with the right of all people to determine their own medical care combine to render a woman’s rights more compelling than those of a fetus in my opinion.

  116. Did you all know that people have used herbs and such for centuries to get rid of unwanted children? Yes even the Puritans used them. Why does all the pro-lifer’s seem to think that abortion is a new thing, brought on by all that nasty out-of-wedlock sex of the post-pill world? Wake up.

    I think abortion was considered a property crime in most of the US prior to the 20th century. though I may be wrong.

    gosh, which is worse?

  117. If you do anything to a woman that kills her late term fetus you have proabably comitted a serious crime against the woman you know something like assault or assault with a deadly weapon. The fetus does not have to be legally a person for the perp to be punished.

    Just because there is no way for fetuses to be practicably made citizens does not mean you can’t mourn them.

  118. Thomas, I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear enough. I was just trying to say that most women don’t want second and third trimester abortions, so abortion wouldn’t be common then even if you don’t have any restrictions. There’s a whole lot of reasons why women get abortions, and you can’t write everyone of them into a law and I don’t think the law should go into the details of something so personal anyways.

  119. Marle, yeah, I think it is fair to say that most unwanted pregnancies are unwanted ab initio, and therefore that the earlier a woman has the knowledge and access to prevent or end it, the sooner she will do so.

  120. Thank you Jill for this post. I’ve actually found this question to be a very good technique for stopping a foaming anti-abortion screamer in his tracks at times. “If you really think it’s murder, how much time does the woman serve?” has stopped a number of them cold. They’ve wanted to call it murder, but don’t want it treated as murder. They’ll try to pin the blame on the doctors, but that doesn’t hold up and they know it, especially when they’ve just moments before accused the women involved of being horrible people for getting abortions.

    Outside of stopping rants, it has also been a good tactic for me in real discussions with honest pro-lifers who really do think it’s all about the “babies” but haven’t thought about what it means to truly think that life begins at conception. I’ve had discussions with conservative family members that have (probably indirectly) led them to conclude that criminalization is the wrong move altogether and that more emphasis needs to be placed on reducing abortions by reducing unwanted pregnancies in the first place instead of through criminalizing the procedure. The “how much time does she serve” question always hits them right between the eyes — they haven’t thought of it that way. They’ve heard their priest go on about about abortion is murder for so long that they don’t really think about it and just react to it. Facing the question head on like that, and really thinking about the implications of what criminalization means, can make it really hard to consistently support criminalization.

    I speak from experience – in my youth I was a conservative, raised in a Republican Roman Catholic household that venerated St. Ronnie and considered abortion to be the same as murder. In high school, during a discussion with some more liberal friends, I was hit with that very same question: “How much time does she go to prison for?” And the fact that I didn’t think that the woman involved deserved any prison time at all made me stop to consider exactly why I thought I could call it murder in the first place. It’s the question that really ends abortion debates, the question that makes those who answer it consistently (by saying “life” or “death penalty”) look like monsters, and the question that Republican politicians and social conservative leaders are afraid of people asking.

  121. Some people talk about the sexual freedom of women. Now, there is a consequence for every action, whether it be good or bad. Why do people think that they shouldn’t be responsible for their actions when it comes to sex?

    Figures.

    So, consequences. Let’s talk.

    Men who fail to properly control their sperm, knowing full well that doing so can have a high risk of resulting in serious and substantial physical and emotional harms to a woman, should face what consequences should they fail to control their sperm and that failure results in serious and substantial physical and emotional harms to a woman?

    Uncontrolled sperm can even result in the death of a woman, so why are men getting off scot free of consequences for inflicting physical harms upon women through failure to control their sperm? I’m not talking about child support; that is not paid for harm to the woman. I want to know what punishment is being doled out for physically harming a woman through failure to control one’s sperm.

    Think about it, if you jail the man, then he can’t be out there harming women and there will be fewer embryos for people such as yourself to anguish over. Plus, it will make men actually stop to think about whether or not that consensual sex with their girlfriend or wife is really worth a jail sentence.

    See, playing risk and consequences if fun, fun, fun.

  122. To add some to my other post

    Punishment for abortion should not be the answer.
    Abortion can never be punished out of existence. Think prohibition. Demand must dry up. We must make the individual not want an abortion.

    We must change the culture. Make more & better contraceptives,
    Increase options for quick, safe, confidential and easy baby drop off. Make abortion the LEAST attractive alternative

  123. Uncontrolled sperm can even result in the death of a woman, so why are men getting off scot free of consequences for inflicting physical harms upon women through failure to control their sperm?

    ha – yes, are these same people going to call for jail time for men whose pregnant partners die in childbirth?

  124. This is an excellent post. You said everything I would say in a comment. Well written and thorough and dammit, now I’m all riled up and I have to do a conference call about antitrust law.

  125. Make abortion the LEAST attractive alternative

    Steve, that’s kinda hard since abortion is safer, easier, quicker, and less painful than childbirth, but if you want to push contraceptives, hey that’s great. 🙂

  126. Whoa, Steve; I didn’t see that last one coming. I’ve always argued that pro-lifers can’t just cut off the supply of abortion and expect things to be hunky-dorey. If sincere in your wish to see fewer fetuses aborted, you must decrease the demand for it. Now, some women don’t want babies no matter what. So there will always be some market for abortion. But making pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood more attractive to women would go along way towards reducing the abortion rate. And, ironically, Republican policies are the very things that make pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood LESS appealing.

  127. Hmmm…

    My partner and have been together for a few years now. We’re not married, not out of any commitment thing, but just because we don’t see any point in going through an expensive procedure and adding signatures to something that WE already full feal.

    We cannot conceivably become more committed to life together than we already are, but we have decided that we never, ever, want children.

    Never.

    We have decided this based on childhood problems, personal beliefs, the fact that neither of us particularly likes children and a variety of other reasons.

    Doctors refuse to give my partner the snip, or to tie my tubes, despite this. We regularly go back to them to ask again, and will continue to do so until they give in. In the meantime, however: Due to a medical condition, subsequent surgery and scar tissue, we cannot use condoms. They tear or come off. Every time.

    So instead, I have a contraceptive implant, which I replace every 3 years. But that doesn’t completely protect me.

    From some pro-life arguments have heard, I should have the following options…

    Never have penetrative sex with my life partner. Ever.

    Have sex and, if I get pregnant, “accept responsibility” and have a child that neither of us wanted, and that we both took every reasonable precaution to avoid.

    Great.

  128. Make more & better contraceptives,
    Increase options for quick, safe, confidential and easy baby drop off.

    While I and I’d be willing to guess pretty much every pro-choicer you’d meet am for both of these things, I think the increased ‘option for baby drop off’ does ignore the fact that being pregnant is not an easy thing you can just do while continuing to live your life.

    It impacts your life and sometimes renders you unable to work. Not to mention, if you’re in a situation where you have to hide a pregnancy from your parents, spouse/boyfriend, or employer, relying on this option really won’t work.

  129. The differences between the born and unborn might not be a good reason to punish individuals who kill them differently but there could be other reasons. For example, not all individuals who kill born human beings given the same punishment. Some are given the death penalty, others get plead down to almost nothing based on how much evidence the prosecutor has against them or the small likelihood of them being convicted.

    Now you’re just being willfully ignorant. Of course the outcomes of murder cases aren’t exactly the same. But we’re talking about the statutes, and what the statutory punishment will be. My point is that it’s awfully tricky to define a fetus as a human being with full rights and then not define abortion as murder, and not prosecute people who kill fetuses.

    My question isn’t about individual sentences, it’s about the statutory language and the general sentencing rules: Should abortion be legally considered murder? What should the punishment be? If, as a general rule, the punishment for abortion is significantly gentler than the punishment for killing a born person — as you’re suggesting — why?

  130. Vanessa, that’s true. Many pro-lifers seem to neglect the fact that many women who seek abortions not only don’t want to raise the baby – they don’t want to gestate it either. Suggesting adoption as an alternative doesn’t work if the pregnancy itself is what a woman seeks to avoid. Half the reason I don’t want a baby right now is because I have a health condition that pregnancy would render much more serious. Better “baby drop off” areas won’t fix that.

  131. I’m still stuck on parcel of food. WTF?

    Anyway, we don’t deny smokers chemotherapy when they get lung cancer. Isn’t it strange that the only action we’re supposed to take responsibility for medically is having sex?

  132. Just women, though, Nymphalidae. Men aren’t asked to take responsibility for having sex by declining treatment for STDs. Women aren’t either, of course; but they get us w/ the pregnancy.

  133. Question I’d like to hear on the next edition of Stump the Abortion Protestors: If a woman miscarries, should she have to go to court to prove she didn’t do anything to cause the miscarriage on purpose?

  134. The whole adoption thing pisses me off. As others have pointed out, it doesn’t help the problem of not wanting to gestate. 90% of the time it’s just a cover for racism.

  135. OMG, Meowser, noooo. I used to bring this up A LOT in this repro-rights group I used to chat in, and pro-lifers always answered the same way. It went a little something like this:

    “But miscarriages aren’t intentional.”

    “Exactly, but you’d have to investigate in order to figure that out.”

    “Nuh uh. A miscarriage is when the fetus dies spontaneously!”

    “I KNOW! But if a woman’s pregnancy ends, only she knows whether or not she aborted it. So all women whose pregnancies end prematurely would have to be investigated for murder!”

    “Why would they have to do that?”

    SarahMC slams head against desk and gives up.

  136. How about in Ireland, where they say “women can have abortions over in England, just don’t have them here!”

    Things might have changed, but I believe that it is illegal for an Irish woman to travel outside of the country in order to receive an abortion. They do it, of course, but there is a law on the books that forbids it. If the forced-pregnancy* crowd wants a similar law, I’ll give them points for consistency. (But I’m guessing that this point would be glossed over.)

    *these people are not pro-life and we should really stop using the term

  137. You know, this whole post and thread is highly revelatory to me. Especially what you just said in #155, SarahMC. I’ve been going around all my life, practically, thinking, “They want to throw us in jail, they want us to be executed, they want us clogging up the court system every time one of us even so much as miscarries.” I genuinely never considered in a million years that it was the default of zygote-uber-alles types to believe recriminalizing abortion would eliminate it entirely and therefore they wouldn’t have to consider what would happen if anyone defied the law.

    Yeah, I know Bush I was similarly gobsmacked in the 1988 Presidential debates when Bernard Shaw of CNN asked him a similar question, but I figured that that was because his stated position was pro-choice until Reagan got his grubby paws on him just eight years before, and therefore chances were pretty good abortion wasn’t something he really felt passionately about. I just never thought people who had devoted their entire lives to recriminalizing abortion wouldn’t have “sorted out the penalties,” either — I thought they meant it when they said “murder is murder.” Silly me.

  138. It’s for this reason that pro-lifers should not be elected to pubilc office, period. Not only because they’d enact anti-choice policies, but also because pro-lifers tend not to think things through to their logical conclusions! They don’t consider the ramifications of certain actions.

  139. So, if I get pregnant, even though I used available means of contraception, and I didn’t want to have a child, but was made to anyway, I am sure my kid would love me lots when I told him/her: “I didn’t really want you. You’re just a ‘consequence,’ a ‘punishment,’ for having sex. So, make sure you don’t have sex until you’re married, otherwise you’ll have to raise a kid, like I did! I sure regret that!”

    …Not that I think anybody would really tell a child those things…

    Parents tell (scream) their children a lot of things repeatedly—“I hate you, I wish you’d never been born, I want to kill you”. My memory begins about age 4-with those memories. Abortion should be legal. Years of therapy and drugs cannot fix all the problems associated with those memories.

  140. I think there was some sort of legislation that someone was trying to put through (I am horrible for not remembering the details, but I am a youngin and it was a few years ago, so sadly these types of things weren’t priority) where women would be required to report a miscarriage to the police within 24 hours. I know that there was a lot of rallying against it (women began sending tampons and pads to the government official) and many pointed out that we’d technically have to make a report once a month if that’s really how they wanted to play (what if there was an egg in there that just didn’t attach to my wall?) Plus, if you really had just had a miscarriage and it was a wanted pregnancy, how much more traumatizing is to have to call the police and hang on to everything so they can stop by and check it out? Anyway yea, if anyone remembers who/where/what that legislation was it’d be cool if they could remind me. I just know for sure that I read about it (and was pretty pissed about it), so it isn’t something that hasn’t already been tried.

  141. Wasn’t there a young mother who did in fact go to jail for having a late-term abortion — I think possibly self-induced? I seem to recall a lot of assholes being incredibly hostile and “she got what she deserved” towards that woman, but then, she was a poor woman of color, and I think an immigrant. The story is bound to be a bit different when we’re talking about the “I can fly to Europe to get an abortion” class of folks — which I have no doubt includes a lot of wealthy white conservatives.

  142. I’m very pro-choice and I don’t really see the value of this line of argument. Nick’s answer, for instance, while very different from my own beliefs, and scary, was internally consistent.

    I don’t think it’s an effective strategy to argue against an entire group of diverse people with an argument impugning their consistency. It might work with an individual not-very-thoughtful “pro-lifer”, but it’s unfair to some parts of the movement to hold against them the views of other parts of the movement. People do the same thing to feminists (so is sex work empowering or degrading? make up your minds!) all the time.

    It also seems to be surrendering to their framing. No, let’s not talk about what it means for abortion to be murder. Let’s talk instead about why that frame is false. And if we really want to look at the consequences of their beliefs, look at the real rather than logical consequences. The policies “pro-lifers” espouse result in dead women. Motherless children. Maybe investigations of miscarriages and stillbirths.

  143. “Anyway yea, if anyone remembers who/where/what that legislation was it’d be cool if they could remind me.”

    The douchebag who proposed it was John Cosgrove, a delegate in Virginia.

  144. Yes Nick’s argument is consistent but Nick’s argument is not what is posted all over the bumpers and protest signs of pro-lifers.

    They say: Abortion is Murder

    That widespread phrase needs to be addressed for the absurd case of sloganeering that it is. So absurd in fact that the people who say it do not even take it to it’s logical conclusion.

  145. I agree, Ellen. We need to get past slogans (such as “My body; my choice” or “Abortion is murder” as you mentioned) and realize what people mean by these phrases. Thats why I’m excited about this blog- people looking at the issue from an “abortion rights” perspective seem to have well thought out ideas, and they also seem to be trying to look at the issue from the other side, which I always try to do as well. I’ve already learned quite a bit! God love you, Ellen.

  146. They don’t actually want to ANSWER any of these questions; they just want to tie it up long enough for your nine months to run out so you end up giving birth. Then, they sneer and laugh and walk away. Period.

    I HATE pro-lifers.

  147. If it was made illegal, women who get one should be sterilized. Most women I’ve spoken with think abortion is just dandy because *they can always get pregnant again later*. Maybe if they knew that if they had an abortion they would never have any more kids, they would cherish the lives of their children more.

    On rape, how about this ~~ a woman who becomes pregnant as a result of rape should be allowed the abortion; the fetal tissue should be saved and analyzed to track down the rapist. The man could then be strung up publicly and castrated. Problem solved.

  148. JivinJ —

    For example, couldn’t a state pass a law prohibiting physicians (or anyone else) from providing a woman with abortion and then provide punish (loss of license, fine, or jail time) to the individual providing the abortion and not make the woman a criminal at all.

    If that were the law, then there would be no legal penalty for women who perform abortions on themselves. Instructions for self-abortion would surely pop up on the internet. Women could obtain methotrexate or mifepristone, perhaps legally or perhaps illegally, via the thriving illegal drug market, then go to the hospital for D&Cs for their “miscarriages.” Women of means would simply fly to Canada for legal abortions, while poor women would go the unsafe route. Abortion might well become easier to obtain than ever, since drug dealers don’t have to worry about parental notification, waiting periods or options counseling. Is that really what pro-lifers want? Easier and riskier abortions for all (except the rich)?

  149. Flower – If sterilization were to become the penalty for an abortion then why shouldn’t the man (father) be sterilized as well? why would it only be women who are forced to “cherish the lives of their children.” women aren’t the only ones who can always make a baby later. men are just as responsible in terms of reproduction as women.

  150. If it was made illegal, women who get one should be sterilized. Most women I’ve spoken with think abortion is just dandy because *they can always get pregnant again later*. Maybe if they knew that if they had an abortion they would never have any more kids, they would cherish the lives of their children more.

    This is fascinating. How are women supposed to cherish the lives of their children if we sterilize them after abortion? That is, there are plenty of childless women who terminate pregnancies. Which children are they supposed to be cherishing?

  151. It seems to me that, in light of the policy and philosophy of the “pro-life” terrorists, the ban on selling human organs should be overturned so that both men and women can be burdened by other people’s “right to life.”

  152. Nick, if you’re hopeful, then you don’t understand. There is no compromise. You’re not changing your beliefs, I’m not changing mine, and we’re just jockeying to corral enough of the mushy middle-grounders to win political victories and score the policy outcome we want. My support for a woman’s right to control access to her internal organs is absolute and will not change. I only want to hear what you have to say because I think your position will alienate the people whose support I need: keep talking, it helps me.

  153. So what does one say when a pro-lifer is internally consistent and does in fact believe that women should be given life in prison/the death sentence for having an abortion?

    I have no idea how to respond to such a belief. How can one respond? My only response is “Well, that idea seems to me to be psychotic, and people who actually believe that women should be executed for having an abortion should never be in charge.” Which just sounds feeble.

    And there’s the argument that people serve varying sentences for various “levels” of murder–from no jail time to lethal injection. This has been touched on in the thread, but I really want to know–what’s the reply to someone who argues that line of thought? “Ten years in jail for a woman who has an abortion in her 2nd trimester, three years in jail in her 1st trimester, life in prison for her 3rd trimester, and lethal injection if she’s had more than one abortion” is an idea that just kills me, especially since I have no idea how to argue against it.

    I guess my only consolation is that, as stated on this thread, most people do seem to be reasonable people who, if the idea of “abortion is murder”/”abortion should be illegal” is brought to its logical conclusion, would NOT support such extreme measures.

  154. Flower, women who were raped can’t get people to believe them now. If being raped were the only exception to a ban on abortion, how would a woman who said she was raped ever be believed?

    Of course, she would have to report the rape right away, before she could have known she was pregnant. But that would mean that every woman who was raped would have to report it, and let herself get dragged through a dehumanizing and humiliating process that may not be in her best interest, just in case she got pregnant and wanted the option of terminating.

    Nice solution. Keep talking. Like Nick, you’re a good poster child for the proposition that pro-lifers are zealots.

  155. To be fair, Dr. Confused, this particular logical question also serves to highlight a very real consequence for women who elect abortions: jail time. That reality is distasteful, which is why you only see die-hard pro-lifers who value consistency above all else reach the logical conclusion.

    (But I do agree that calling people hypocrites rarely changes their worldview.)

  156. I am afraid Nick “My body, my choice” is not just a slogan but a defensible position regarding a number of human freedoms including the freedom not to be compelled to have an abortion against your will, or a c-section, or chemotherapy or psychoactive drugs or any other medical procedure that violates your personal ethics and your desires.

    You see I would readily identify as pro-life based on my own feminist ethics but since the pro-life movement is a legal one and not a cultural one I argue against it. I will always argue against it because the unborn cannot be made citizens without treading over the rights of all women to control over their privacy and reproductive care. It sets up a legal framework in which the unborn and the women who carry them are set in oppostion with an intrusive, frequently clumsy, medical and governmental establishment put in place to “protect” one group at the expense of the other. A proposition so absurd given the biological reality of pregnancy that no one should be advocating such a thing, especially not the members of a political party that regularly demonizes big government. Who exactly would be rifling through the medical records and investigating your wife/sister/daughter hemoraging uterus?

    Legalized abortion is the price paid for medical privacy for all women. If you want to change the number of abortions you need to change how individual women view their unborn children because banning abortions does not stop abortions and will only deprive all women of reproductive age of full equality.

  157. You know, I have this crazy fantasy that one day, people will spend ten minutes consulting Google and figure out what the hell they’re talking about before they go spouting off about Assisted Reproductive Technology and In Vitro Fertilization.

    It’s never going to happen, but damn, it’d be nice.

    JivinJ,
    “First, maybe we could regulate IVF clinics so they’re not creating more embryos than women are planning on implanting – I think that could be a good first step.”

    Here’s how my last cycle went: I had about 30something follicles during the stim cycle. This translated to 18 eggs, 12 of which were mature. 7 of those fertilized (with help). Of those 7, only 2 made it to a stage where they might be able to survive in my uterus. We transferred those two embryos into my uterus and crossed our fingers.

    By your argument, we should have retrieved and attempted to fertilize no more than two eggs, which almost certainly would have resulted in no embryos whatsoever. Given the risk cycling poses to my health, this would have bordered on malpractice, or at least Serious Medical Stupidity.

    JivinJ, if you ever find yourself in the unfortunate position of needing ART or IVF, you can set up whatever regulations and restrictions you’d like for your own medical care. In the meantime, please refrain from suggesting regulations about a procedure you clearly do not fully understand.

    Thank you.

  158. Oh, and since I appear to be the only one on this thread who actually has a frozen embryo on ice, let me just put in my two cents:

    I do not believe actual human beings should ever be sacrificed or endangered for the sake of that embryo. When I heard about boats being diverted to fertility clinics after Katrina to ‘save’ the embryos (while real live people were still trapped in their houses, awaiting rescue), I was so pissed off, I couldn’t even speak.

    There was a huge storm last year that resulted in widespread power outtages. On the one hand, I hoped that our embryo wouldn’t thaw out. On the other hand, I hoped even more fervently that nobody would take any risky heroic measures to try to ‘save’ it. An embryo, even mine, even one I have a personal attachment to, is not worth a human life.

  159. “But I don’t think that you’ve answered the fire in an IVF clinic question very well. Basically, the question is this: 101 people are in grave danger. You can save one of them or you can save 100 of them. Apart from the obvious concern that it’s a trick question, this question shouldn’t be a hard one to answer. How can it possibly be equivalent or better to save only one when you could have saved 100?”

    If your ten-year-old daughter were in a burning building, crippled with a broken leg, would you save her instead of the two toddlers whom you do not know (assuming you can carry either your daughter or the two toddlers)? Acting rationally, if all life beyond birth is the same, you should save the two you don’t know and let your daughter burn to death.

    At what point would you save the strangers? When it would take so long to get your daughter out that you could have made three trips and saved six strangers? Do you really think that her life is worth the lives of six strange toddlers? What if the toddlers were minorities, and your daughter Caucasian? Does that mean that the life of a white girl is worth the lives of six black children?

    Fact is, you can say “all lives are equal” (which, I presume, is the general idea that liberals have), but most people will not act in such a manner; there is a systematic irrationality that is a poor basis for imputing moral values.

    I will not answer that question until this one is answered: do you believe that the “burning building” question is one designed to elucidate one’s own determination of the values of various lives, irrespective of any other circumstances?

    How should women who abort be prosecuted?

    First, let me note that your side gets its panties in a twist whenever conservatives want to throw pregnant women in jail to stop them from delivering crack to their unborn children. Moving onwards:

    Any law student or lawyer should recognise it as a bullshit question. Judges and juries decide how much time to give someone. The real answer is: whatever a jury deems appropriate, after weighing all the factors.

    It is foolish to suggest that a particular mechanism of murder results in a predetermined jail sentence. A person who uses a gun to kill the President will surely be executed for treason, while a person who uses a gun to defend himself and his family will often not even be prosecuted. Here, you are really saying that we should criminalise a mechanism in a pre-determined manner, which is ridiculous on its face.

    “Any medical treatment that could potentially harm a fetus, even if foregoing it meant that the woman would experience severe health complications or death?”

    That’s just stupid. If their lives are EQUAL, why would minor harm to the fetus trump major harm to the mother?

    The best analogy is Siamese twins. Unlike JJT’s violin analogy, conjoined twins are tethered by biology, not the desires of either one, nor government intervention. The twins may not harm each other through exercise of their own bodily integrity; yet, if a situation arises whereby only one twin will die, we do not always require that nature take its course. We could perform an operation that would save the life of one twin and allow it more functionality than it would under “natural” conditions.

    If one of them had benign cancer, we would certainly subject both twins to surgery or chemo to help one of them. This situation is no different.

    —-

    “What do doctors do if they’re faced with a life-threatening pregnancy? Do they force the woman to continue it, knowing it will kill her? I mean, it’s not the fetus’s fault, and it can’t really be construed as self-defense to terminate the pregnancy. And their lives are equal, aren’t they? Do we just let nature take its course, then? ”

    Again, that’s just stupid. Self-defence is hardly predicated upon the mens rea of the perpetrator: all one needs is the immediate threat of harm and lack of a reasonable alternative.

    Are you really claiming that there is absolutely no self-defence right against a mentally challenged person? Against a gun-wielding sleepwalker? Against a drunk driver who is barreling towards your car on the wrong side of the road?

    —–

    “If life starts at conception, and from the moment of fertilization an egg is a full-fledged human being with the same rights as you or I, what do we do about calculating the death rate? The miscarriage rate? What do we do about all those embryos in fertility clinics? Do we force women to implant them and carry them to term? If not, how do we justify forcing women to carry naturally-implanted pregnancies to term?”

    Cake.

    You calculate the death rate by dividing the number that died by the total and multiplying by 100 to arrive at a percentage.

    Miscarriage rate: total miscarriages/pregnancies *100%. Like a lot of vital statistics, the lines are not always clearly drawn. Work with the data given and go from there.

    Well, let’s see. Is your ONLY option to forcibly implant women? Let’s explore other options:
    -regulating the number of eggs that can be fertilised, thus eliminating “excess” embryos;
    -putting them up for “adoption” (snowflake adoption);
    -obtaining a woman’s consent BEFORE her eggs are harvested for her to implant them all or find a surrogate.

    How do you “force” women to carry pregnancies to term? Have you never taken a philosophy course? You are not “forcing” her to do anything; you are merely preventing her from using unlawful force against another human. Just as a Siamese twin may not murder his brother in the name of bodily integrity, pregnant women lack the same right.

    There is a moral difference between affirmative action and inaction. The relevant right is that of non-aggression. The fetus has the right against its mother; a woman has that right against those who would forcibly implant her.

    There is a fundamental difference between biological “force” and the force of government. One may not use the latter to escape the dictates of the former.

  160. So, Flower, do you think men who abandon their children should be sterilized as well? Men who flee the women they impregnate? Men who don’t pay child support to their kids?

    And are you being intentionally dense or are you really unaware that married women with children get abortions too? Sometimes the needs of one born children override the “needs” or “rights” of a zygote. Have you even read this entire thread? Jesus.

    BTW, castration doesn’t stop rape. I wish the notion that the absence of a penis makes rape impossible would disappear. As long as rapists are alive, they can use fingers, knives, sticks, etc. to violate women’s bodies.

  161. Actually, what’s interesting about Flower’s post is that men who actually kill their children through abuse aren’t forcibly sterilized. In this country, we tend to think that forcing somebody to undergo an unnecessary, invasive medical procedure is an extraordinary violation of bodily integrity. But of course, that all makes sense coming from a pro-forced-birther. Like I’ve been saying all along, if they think it’s OK to force you to give birth, they’ll think it’s OK to prevent you from giving birth. There’s really no philosophical difference between Flower’s position and China’s one-child policy.

  162. Flower, do you think men who abandon their children should be sterilized as well? Men who flee the women they impregnate? Men who don’t pay child support to their kids? — Yes, and yes, and yes.

    And are you being intentionally dense or are you really unaware that married women with children get abortions too? — then they can get sterilized too!

    castration doesn’t stop rape. — no but if we keep them strung up long enough eventually they’ll either a) bleed to death or b) starve. Then they at least wouldn’t rape anyone else.

    she would have to report the rape right away, before she could have known she was pregnant. — sure but then she could also be given Emergency Contraception so pregnancy won’t result from it.

    I never said I was pro-life. I just like playing Devil’s Advocate.

    =^.^=

  163. it’s a good thing I hardly enjoy penis-in-vagina sex these days, because seriously… people are fucking crazy and i’m afraid for this country. IVF is an evil because it’s babies without sex? but sex without babies is evil too? what the fuck? i hope that dude has never used a condom, what the fuck is he on about?

  164. flower, devil’s advocate or not, shut the fuck up. LOLing about issues concerning rape is not the coolest thing you’ve done all year. also, most antichoice people think that emergency contraception is also ‘murder,’ so your ‘devil’s advocacy’ fails.

    yeah, i’m a humorless feminazi, and you aren’t cute. and i haven’t taken my meds today. NEXT.

  165. Flower – you may have missed my post (or just not answered it), but do you think that a man should get sterilized along with his girlfriend/wife. Suppose that the consequence of abortion were sterilization? Wouldn’t it only be right that both the man (father) and woman be sterilized? Why should only the women be forced to “cherish their children” in something that was caused by both her an the man?

  166. Interesting, now who’s the zealot?

    LOLing about issues concerning rape is not the coolest thing you’ve done all year. — who LOL’ed about it? Go back and read my posts. I’m all for castrating rapists and leaving them to die (one of the reasons I can’t call myself pro-life).

    I also wasn’t trying to be cute.

    It may be the case that many pro-lifer’s are against Emergency Contraception, but many *aren’t*. Many pro-choicers are fully against a woman choosing to bear lots of children, even though it’s her CHOICE.

    Oh and this:
    men who actually kill their children through abuse aren’t forcibly sterilized. Yeah they should be, too.

    I’m not pro-forced-birth; I’m adamantly pro-eugenics, so you’ll find I argue from a slightly different view point. Still, I came and answered your questions.

  167. trailer park:

    From your comment at #170:

    “Women could obtain methotrexate or mifepristone, perhaps legally or perhaps illegally, via the thriving illegal drug market, then go to the hospital for D&Cs for their “miscarriages.””

    One weird way to obtain methotrexate would be if you had a pet with cancer.  One of the chemo meds my kitty is on (she has acute lymphoblastic lymphoma) is methotrexate.

    How utterly bizarre to see the cross-section of kitty cancer and abortion meds.

  168. Flower, by your argument, a woman who experiences an ectopic pregnancy (Google it–they’ll kill ya) or other lifethreatening pregnancy complication and decides to terminate the pregnancy should be sterilized, along with her male counterpart?

    Do you honestly believe that a girl should give birth at fifteen (under threat of forced sterilization), rather than finish school and go on to have a family when all parties are ready to parent?

    Are you out of your mind?

    Also, rape victims, let’s not forget that under Flower’s theory, if your rapist is not convicted, no abortion for you!

  169. Many pro-choicers are fully against a woman choosing to bear lots of children, even though it’s her CHOICE.

    Really? Would you care to provide any evidence for that, bearing in mind that saying “Wow, I think that’s a lousy idea” is very different from saying “That should be illegal!”

    I’m adamantly pro-eugenics

    Seeing that deciding to have an abortion, abusing one’s children, and failing to pay child support (and apologies for having to lump “having an abortion” in with the other two things, which are absolutely horrific) aren’t genetically linked characteristics, your eugenicist leanings are…irrelevant. You…do understand the supposed point of eugenics, don’t you?

  170. Flower,

    For the purposes of continued debate (I assume that’s what you mean by Devil’s Advocate?)…

    What do you understand of the various external factors which can effect a person’s decision to abort?

    Say you have a couple. A loving, utterly devoted couple who want to spend the rest of their lives together. But they are poor. Crushingly poor. So poor they can’t afford enough food or medical care for themselves, let alone a child. They want children, one day, but there is no way they could have children now. Should they be forcibly sterilised following an unwanted pregnancy? Should they be forced to choose between having a child now, and potentially losing everything, including their home and then the child when it is taken from them, and never having a child at all?

    What sort of choice is that?

    What about a couple who both carry a genetic defect which, while dormant in themselves, has a high risk of occurring in any child they have? What if they choose not to have children due to this? And they have an abortion, and your enforced sterilisation. Then, years down the line they find themselves in a different relationship, where having children would not carry the risk of this genetic defect becoming active. But it’s too late for them; they once opted not to have a child RIGHT NOW so can never have one.

    You make the incredibly shallow assumption that every person who aborts COULD choose to carry to term and keep the baby, and that this would be the best thing for all concerned, regardless.

    I speak as someone who will never breed, true, but I know so many women and men who desperately, strongly want to have children and a large family- but who cannot support that right now- and who would have to choose whether to have an abortion if their contraception failed.

    People don’t callously flick their heads and go “oh well, scratch that foetus, I don’t feel like being pregnant just now so I’ll have it chopped out. No matter, I can always make another one”. In almost all cases, the decision is difficult, traumatic, complicated and painful. That is not to say it isn’t the right decision to make in some circumstances.

    In either case, if abortion is illegal, women will abort in secret. So long as they do it early enough that the pregnancy doesn’t show, how will anyone ever know? All your enforced sterilisation law will do is ensure that, when women get backdoor abortions which go wrong, they will be even less likely to come forward for much needed medical care and even more women will die.

    So again, not pro-life.

    And yea, I’m not even going to touch the whole “rape” thing; it’s been answered more clearly above and I could rant for far too long on that subject.

  171. “I’m not pro-forced-birth; I’m adamantly pro-eugenics”

    You mean… as in selectively breeding the human population to enforce your own personal ideal?

    Eeegh… and there’s a massive can of worms to play with…

    I’ve got a comment waiting in moderation but now I’m wondering if I’ll just be feeding trolls…

  172. You’re right Thomas, there is no compromise. I’m not looking for middle-ground, though, I just want to make sure I understand the pro-choice view because I don’t want to set up straw men or pull any cheap tactics or anything like that. Like I said, I can learn a lot from anybody. God love you, Thomas.

  173. MOREOVER, I want to see born persons whose mothers died giving them birth IMPRISONED for murder or manslaughter, since they are full-fledged people with rights. WITH RIGHTS COME RESPONSIBILITIES.

  174. What does ‘pro-abortion’ even mean? That someone thinks having abortion available is a moral good, or that they’re actively advocating for more abortions?

    I guess pro-abortion is what I am, so I’ll explain. I think abortion IS a moral good, actually, in that I believe that a woman’s absolute right to control her body is a moral good, and abortion is one way to exercise that right. I also see taking responsibility for one’s own actions as a moral good, and abortion is one way to do that, too. If you know you don’t want a child, or can’t care for a child, or having another child might put current children in a bad spot, or carrying a child to term might do irrevocable harm to you or kill you, leaving you unable to fulfil other existing obligations, I’d certianly say abortion is the responsible, moral choice (sorry, the heroic mother-sacrifice may play well in fiction, but in real life, it leaves everyone worse off).

    So that’s MY take on pro-abortion. And yes, I do advocate “more abortions”, too. I want to see the day when no woman who wants an abortion is not able to have one. I also want to see the day that women who don’t want abortions, but see no other viable option, have other viable options, too. In short, I long for the day when women have complete, unapologetic control over their reproductive lives, and a society that backs them up and supports their choices, whatever they might be.

  175. I never said I was pro-life. I just like playing Devil’s Advocate.

    You’re doing a pretty piss-poor job of it.

    I don’t think Nick is going to alienate anybody; but he illustrates exactly what the problem is with the anti-choice position. Bumper-sticker fetus-huggers have not, for the most part, thought very much about their position; there’s no logic, just a mishmash of emotions and slogans. That’s why they will argue that abortion is murder, but it’s OK in cases of incest, or that a woman who deliberately aborts her baby should not be jailed, or that abortion is OK only if the woman is also sterilized. (And it’s always the woman, period, trolls like Flower notwithstanding.)

    Nick, on the other hand, is intellectually honest: If a fetus is as human as a born baby, then we simply apply all the laws regarding a parent’s duty to their baby to the pregnant woman and her fetus. That’s not a very popular position, except among those too stupid or dishonest (or both) to see the implications.

  176. I think you mean “born”, not “conception” 😉
    Marle, lol, yeah, I corrected that at 106. I meant inception.

    By ‘induce labor’, you mean give birth to it instead of an aborting? Yes. If the scientific technicality of its viability is recognized, and the woman insists on aborting at that stage (with medical exceptions), then I would find it criminal. Abortion should be accessible for any medical exception throughout the pregnancy, though.

    as far as whether women who have abortions ought to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law – it would be easier to respect pro-lifers if they felt that way. at least they’d be consistent.
    I guess the fact that they’re not is actually revealing? That their point of focus is really the the abortion of a life than punishing the woman? Earlier, someone mentioned that rabid pro-lifers consciously shifted to this strategy, but I do believe there are calm, rational (and emotional) pro-lifers who rally for this because they really believe the sanctity of a fetus (and have realistic about sex and contraception)– I’ve met a few of them, fortunately.

    Republican policies are the very things that make pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood LESS appealing.
    Ironic. Having a hard time to get a ligation is also insane.

  177. Dr. Confused – I think this line of argument is useful for two reasons:

    1. It’s a great way for people to personally experience that gut-level belief that a fetus – though human, though alive – is just not the same as a born person. Most people may not be able to articulate it, but they know that sending women to jail for having abortions isn’t right. This is why you will never hear official representatives of the pro-life movement talk about sending women to jail. It is just not a policy the public will buy. The burning fertility clinic example is another way of getting at this point but it’s too logical. People want to believe what they already believe and will construct some sort of absurd little answer that lets them do that. This approach is more, not emotional but instinctual, maybe? Is that a word?

    2. I think it does re-frame the debate in the way you described. Instead of arguing over whether abortion is moral (which is irrelevant since we don’t ban things just because they’re immoral) we can argue over whether a ban is a sensible, effective policy for reducing abortion. I won’t get into a long rant here about how it’s really just the most asinine approach you could take, but it is. So in the end this line of questioning exposes pro-life policies for being plain ol’ bad ideas.

    As I said before, I hope this question gets asked during a presidential debate. I’d like to hear detailed proposals for reducing the need for abortion rather than more meaningless slogans about abortion itself. I know this will never happen, but it would be nice.

  178. Hee, touchyphiliac.

    It’s amusing to me how eugenicists never, ever put themselves in the category of people who shouldn’t reproduce even if they want to.

  179. Willa–
    I tried to respond to that kind of idea in Nick’s original post. My post is number 96. The amount of social burden that that many imprisonments and LJs would demand is staggering. I don’t know that we could imprison and kill that many women if we wanted to. And I don’t know that anti-choicers would be terribly excited at paying a tremendous tax burden for every women who has an abortion and subsequently goes to jail for the rest of their life/ends up in costly litigation over the death penalty. Honestly, if you want to increase the number of abortions, make it a form of civil disobedience…

    So even to a person for whom prison time for abortion is desirable, I don’t think it pans out as desirable in the long run…

  180. Okay, let’s cut to the chase, Jivin. How many adopted kids do you have? And you, Nick? Just so you know, I have five. Four of different ethnic background than myself. Three of a very different ethnic background. Until you can match my record, just STFU about abortion rights and how every fetus should be adopted.

  181. Nick pleads ignorance on what to do in the burning IVF clinic case. Nick also, i have noted, has been otherwise toeing the catholic doctrine line consistently in his other answers, including the catholic church’s ectopic pregnancy loophole.

    this always has pissed me off. hence, i’m afraid i am about to judge Nick somewhat harshly.

    a person who does not know whether to save one life or several lives may be technically innocent of crimes under English common law, but ethically, such a person is guilty as hell. guilty of moral cowardice, specifically. in the extreme case, someone who found themselves in such a situation but yet — through waffling, “ignorance”, and fear of making a decision to act — failed to save any life, would be the basest sort of coward in every sense of the word; moral, physical, and personal.

    and this is why the catholic church’s response to ectopic pregnancy so offends me. it is taking the decision to end that ectopic pregnancy, and acting on it, but then being too yellow-bellied cowardly to own up to themselves about having actually decided and acted… and for that cowardice, the woman must needs lose a fallopian tube, and possibly her fertility, as well as undergo major abdominal surgery with its concomitant risks. the church, here, can clearly see what the right outcome is and must be (the woman’s life must be saved) and they also see what must be done in order to bring about that outcome (abort the pregnancy), but for lack of courage to own up to this insight on their own part, needless harm is done.

    routinely. repeatedly. on a regular basis, in catholic hospitals everywhere. i hate the devil-spawned cowards who do this sort of thing, and i will not apologize for having the courage to make that moral decision, either.

    …my apologies if i splattered my RCOB on anybody who’d rather have avoided it, there. the point i’m trying to make is that this Kantian handwaving about “intentions”, “unintentional outcomes”, and whatnot, is so clearly (to me) kabuki theater. what matters is the outcome, and they surely must know it. they’re only trying to fool themselves, and they’re doing a bad job of it (seriously, does the average catholic really think the average catholic too stupid to see the self-deluding going on there…?), and causing pointless harm in that doing. they’re valuing their own internal mental states (their “intentions”, if we believe the excuses; their moral cowardice, in my arrogant opinion) over and above the health and welfare of actual born persons, and that infuriates me beyond measure.

    claiming, as some so prominently do, that abortion is “murder” but yet should only be punished by a fine… or not at all, when the “person” “murdered” was spawned through rape or incest, as if that should matter somehow… that, too, seems to me a form of moral cowardice. a sign that the claimant damn well knows that they’re believing in what just ain’t so, but is unwilling to face the fact squarely. a sign of faith, in the worst possible sense of the word.

  182. X. Trapnel, you were way back at #79, so I’m not sure if you’re even still around, but. . .

    Given just how dramatically different the abortion situation is from killing real people, -of course- it would be treated differently. We differentiate criminal sanctions not merely by the gravity of the evil, but by the needs of deterrence, the degree of culpability in intent, and all sorts of other factors; it seems straightforward to show that -all- of those would push very strongly towards lenience for mothers but not for doctors, if you held the (false!) belief that fetuses have full moral standing.

    Well, the pro-life position is that the abortion situation is not different from “killing real people.” So I don’t see Jill’s post here as a cheap gotcha. It goes to the core of whether pro-lifers believe their own reasoning. We do differentiate between different types of killings, but I don’t see that the factors you cite helping the woman. Surely a pregnant woman who intentionally goes to an abortion provider possesses “the degree of culpability in intent.” Surely the threat of jail time would provide some deterrence against abortion. It’s certainly true that we differentiate legally between different types of murder, and I could see that a pro-lifer might think that abortion is murder, but that the aborting woman has mitigating factors that should be considered in sentencing. But it’s only in pretty exceptional circumstances that you intentionally kill another human being and receive no punishment at all. What are those exceptional circumstances for abortion? I think it’s telling that JivinJ has repeatedly said that it’s possible to make an anti-abortion law in which women face no jail time, but has refused to explain what specific rationale makes it different from a typical murder.

    As you point out, one possible mitigating factor that makes it quite different is the J. J. Thompson argument. But surely any pro-lifer would be loathe to use the J. J. Thompson argument.

    I wouldn’t think it such a strike against, say, pacifists, if they happened to use anti-murder rhetoric while declining to advocate harsh legal penalties for soldiers; I’d understand it to be just that, rhetoric.

    I’m not sure what you mean by rhetoric. If you mean that pro-lifers don’t really believe it when they say that abortion is murder, then surely it’s worth pointing that out, and asking why then they want abortion to be illegal.

    The pacifist situation seems quite different. A pacifist is advocating a government in which there are no state-sanctioned killings. That’s a possible government policy, and doesn’t logically imply anything about what should happen in the unfortunate case where we do have state-sanctioned killings. On the other hand, a pro-lifer can only be advocating a government policy in which abortion is illegal, not one in which abortion doesn’t occur. The latter state, whether or not it’s desirable, is certainly not possible. Given that, it’s natural to ask what should be done about the abortions that will occur under an illegal-abortion-regime.

  183. Oh dear, Theobromophile, you really aren’t the brightest, are you? Let’s begin:

    If your ten-year-old daughter were in a burning building, crippled with a broken leg, would you save her instead of the two toddlers whom you do not know (assuming you can carry either your daughter or the two toddlers)? Acting rationally, if all life beyond birth is the same, you should save the two you don’t know and let your daughter burn to death.

    At what point would you save the strangers? When it would take so long to get your daughter out that you could have made three trips and saved six strangers? Do you really think that her life is worth the lives of six strange toddlers? What if the toddlers were minorities, and your daughter Caucasian? Does that mean that the life of a white girl is worth the lives of six black children?

    Fact is, you can say “all lives are equal” (which, I presume, is the general idea that liberals have), but most people will not act in such a manner; there is a systematic irrationality that is a poor basis for imputing moral values.

    I will not answer that question until this one is answered: do you believe that the “burning building” question is one designed to elucidate one’s own determination of the values of various lives, irrespective of any other circumstances?

    That’s why I specified that you had no connection to the child or the embryos. Of course I believe that context matters. Of course I believe that there’s a gradient when it comes to how important some lives are to some people. My sister’s life is more important to me than a stranger’s. But there is no class of people whose lives I believe are less important as a general rule — I don’t believe that the lives of women, or people of color, or low-income people are less important. I think they’re all people deserving of equal rights.

    Anti-choicers argue that fetuses are people, and yet you seem to be saying that fetuses, as a class, are less important than born children, and that’s ok because we all make certain distinctions when it comes to who we value. Nuh-uh, doesn’t work. You’re mixing up individuals valuing individuals they love over individuals valuing an entire class of people over another. Those are very different things.

    Fetuses are alive. Guess what? I don’t think they’re as important as born women. Not even close. Why? Because, unlike the three-year-old in my burning building scenario, they aren’t sentient. They don’t have the same connections that born people do. They don’t have the same ability to experience fear, pain, etc. They may be human, but they are not people.

    My example intends to illustrate the fact that even anti-choicers recognize that embryos are less important than born children. If that’s what you believe, then just say it, and don’t pull out scenarios that mix in people you know and people you care about. If I had the choice between saving 1 child and 100 children, none of whom I knew, I’d save 100. If I had the choice of saving 1 child or 100 embryos, I’d save the child. Done and done. And yet not one “pro-life” person on this thread has been able to give a straight answer to that question.

    “Any medical treatment that could potentially harm a fetus, even if foregoing it meant that the woman would experience severe health complications or death?”

    That’s just stupid. If their lives are EQUAL, why would minor harm to the fetus trump major harm to the mother?

    Actually, if we’re talking stupid, your answer takes the cake. Here’s the deal: A doctor cannot treat a person for illness if treating them means killing or injuring someone else. Not ok. If your survival depends on me giving you my kidney and I refuse, a doctor can’t just take it. If a woman is going to die in childbirth and the only solution is to induce an abortion, that can’t happen if a fetus is considered a “person.” If a woman needs cancer treatment and the treatment will kill her fetus — a legal person — there are a whole slew of ethical and legal issues that come up.

    The best analogy is Siamese twins. Unlike JJT’s violin analogy, conjoined twins are tethered by biology, not the desires of either one, nor government intervention. The twins may not harm each other through exercise of their own bodily integrity; yet, if a situation arises whereby only one twin will die, we do not always require that nature take its course. We could perform an operation that would save the life of one twin and allow it more functionality than it would under “natural” conditions.

    What if one twin is the parasite twin and the other houses all the essential bodily functions to keep both of them alive? One twin can survive on its own. The other cannot. If you separate them, the other will die. These are both born people who we consider individuals. Can you remove the other twin, knowing that removal will kill him?

    If one of them had benign cancer, we would certainly subject both twins to surgery or chemo to help one of them. This situation is no different.

    …really? You would subject an individual to chemotherapy, surgery and other invasive treatment without their consent? I’d argue that if one twin refused to undergo those treatments, or if those treatments were going to threaten his health or life, we’d have a big ethical and legal problem.

    Again, that’s just stupid. Self-defence is hardly predicated upon the mens rea of the perpetrator: all one needs is the immediate threat of harm and lack of a reasonable alternative.

    Are you really claiming that there is absolutely no self-defence right against a mentally challenged person? Against a gun-wielding sleepwalker? Against a drunk driver who is barreling towards your car on the wrong side of the road?

    But self-defense is almost never pre-meditated. Abortion is. That makes it very different from someone wielding a gun at you. Here’s a better scenario: If you know that a person close to you is going to become violent through no fault of their own (severe mental illness, let’s say, to use your example), and you suspect that they are going to harm and very possibly kill you, can you hire someone else to kill them first?

    Cake.

    You calculate the death rate by dividing the number that died by the total and multiplying by 100 to arrive at a percentage.

    Dude, you’re such a dumbass it hurts. HOW DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY HAVE DIED? Are we going to examine every tampon? Do forensic exams on every pair of panties? I would suggest going back to 7th grade sex ed, where you learn that fertilized eggs — people, under anti-choice definitions — often don’t implant in the uterine lining, and are naturally flushed out of the woman’s body. She was never technically pregnant, and the fertilized egg would never show up on a pregnancy test. So, if it’s “cake,” please explain to me how, exactly, we would know how many eggs get flushed out every day.

    Miscarriage rate: total miscarriages/pregnancies *100%. Like a lot of vital statistics, the lines are not always clearly drawn. Work with the data given and go from there.

    Which would be fine, if there was any reasonable way to obtain that data. There’s not.

    How do you “force” women to carry pregnancies to term? Have you never taken a philosophy course? You are not “forcing” her to do anything; you are merely preventing her from using unlawful force against another human. Just as a Siamese twin may not murder his brother in the name of bodily integrity, pregnant women lack the same right.

    There is a moral difference between affirmative action and inaction. The relevant right is that of non-aggression. The fetus has the right against its mother; a woman has that right against those who would forcibly implant her.

    There is a fundamental difference between biological “force” and the force of government. One may not use the latter to escape the dictates of the former.

    If a woman has a right against those who would forcibly implant her, why does she not have a right against the “person” who has implanted in her uterus?

    Yes, there is a difference between affirmative action and inaction. But if an embryo is, in fact, a person as you have said, then it has already taken the affirmative action of implanting itself and using the woman’s body for its own survival. It’s not cognizant of what it’s doing, but that doesn’t seem to be a requirement of personhood. Instead, the woman’s body has already been violated by another actor; does she really have no right to assert her right to bodily integrity in response?

    Haven’t you ever taken a philosophy course?

  184. Flower, by your argument, a woman who experiences an ectopic pregnancy (Google it–they’ll kill ya) or other lifethreatening pregnancy complication and decides to terminate the pregnancy should be sterilized, along with her male counterpart?

    Did I ever say that life threatening pregnancies should be treated the same?

    Do you honestly believe that a girl should give birth at fifteen (under threat of forced sterilization), rather than finish school and go on to have a family when all parties are ready to parent?

    Yes. I gave birth right about that age actually, AND finished school with a 4.3 gpa and am in college. These things are not mutually exclusive.

    Are you out of your mind?

    Quite possibly, though that’s not the point of the thread.

    Also, rape victims, let’s not forget that under Flower’s theory, if your rapist is not convicted, no abortion for you!

    Where did I say that conviction was a necessary precursor for a woman to get an abortion?

    Really? Would you care to provide any evidence for that, bearing in mind that saying “Wow, I think that’s a lousy idea” is very different from saying “That should be illegal!”

    If you’d spent any length of time reading through Feminste you’d be familiar enough with their patterns of response to know that’s the truth. While they don’t come right out and say “That ought to be illegal!” there IS a considerable amount of derision directed at women who choose large families (in addition to attachment parenting, extended breastfeeding, cloth diapering, etc etc.)…

    – to be continued, after dinner –

  185. Jill:

    How should women who abort be prosecuted?

    Theobromophile:

    Any law student or lawyer should recognise it as a bullshit question. Judges and juries decide how much time to give someone. The real answer is: whatever a jury deems appropriate, after weighing all the factors.

    Neat! I always thought that when I was on a jury, I had to make my decisions based on the standards, definitions, and sentencing requirements in the law. It’s nice to know that the next time I’m on a jury I’m in a free-for-all where I can make my decisions free of any of those pesky legal standards. This is awesome.

  186. Forcing some people to allow their bodies to be used for the benefit of others isn’t an insidious goal?

    It’s called involuntary servitude and it is illegal under the thirteenth amendment .

    “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”

  187. I gave birth right about that age actually, AND finished school with a 4.3 gpa and am in college.

    How nice for you. I suppose if it worked for you, it should work for everyone, because all human beings are exactly the same. You’ve missed the point, haven’t you? For many people these things are mutually exclusive.

    If you’d spent any length of time reading through Feminste you’d be familiar enough with their patterns of response to know that’s the truth. While they don’t come right out and say “That ought to be illegal!” there IS a considerable amount of derision directed at women who choose large families (in addition to attachment parenting, extended breastfeeding, cloth diapering, etc etc.)…

    I have spent a great deal of time reading through Feministe, and amazingly, I still disagree with you. I know, it’s shocking. And again, you have completely missed the point, which is that thinking that people are doing dumb things is a far fucking cry from advocating that said things should be illegal and the people jailed or sterilized. I, for instance, have nothing but scorn and derision for people who talk loudly on their cell phones while sitting behind me on the train. Amazingly, I still do not advocate that such an activity be criminalized and its foul perpetrators carted off to jail where they belong, and their fingers chopped off so that they can no longer operate a cell phone (it’s a tempting thought, I must admit, but using my moral fiber, I resist). I remain content to call those people names under my breath and mock them to my friends. Do you really not see the difference?

  188. “I always thought that when I was on a jury, I had to make my decisions based on the standards, definitions, and sentencing requirements in the law. It’s nice to know that the next time I’m on a jury I’m in a free-for-all where I can make my decisions free of any of those pesky legal standards. This is awesome.”

    Well, it certainly would do a lot to account for all those trials where people got the chair for petty theft.

  189. Bunny Mazonas, I’m not going to copy and paste all of your questions, but to sum it up ~~ no, I don’t consider myself shallow. I am fully aware of all the external factors involved in a couple deciding to terminate a pregnancy. I also firmly believe that a woman should be using every contraceptive possible, including abstinence where feasible, to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. I know a TON of girls IRL who believe that since abortion is available to them they don’t need to be all that careful; I consider this irresponsible behaviour — not to mention the risk of AIDS and other STDs (my county has the highest growing rate of Chlamydia in the nation, so forgive me if I’m generalizing unfairly). I believe that if a couple is having sex, they need to consider pregnancy as a risk even with contraceptive usage — and if they are unprepared to have a baby maybe they shouldn’t be having sex.

    Again, this doesn’t cover the rape issue ~~ but I think I covered that already.

    if abortion is illegal, women will abort in secret. True, but less so in societies that make it worthwhile to raise families (greater family leave policies, more social safety nets, etc). (Unfortunately the Feministe crowd doesn’t seem to agree with this, at least based on that recent post putting down a Liberal blogger who made social policies his focus for reducing abortion.)

    I have absolutely no doubt that if abortion is made illegal, conditions will become monstrous for women abortion. But maybe, just maybe, they’ll get off their high horses and demand better family policies. Then again, modern feminists don’t seem to concerned with their sisters who choose to bear children and keep them for themselves.

    And anyhow, I’m personally not advocating that abortion be made illegal:

    You mean… as in selectively breeding the human population to enforce your own personal ideal?

    Yes.
    If people agree with breeding any other animal to produce the most docile, intelligent, companionable, and the most *fit* offspring, why shouldn’t we apply this to humans?
    I believe the human species would be far better off if we were to choose our mates just a trifle more wisely.
    This also includes the sterilization of those people who would produce unfit offspring, and the abortion of extremely disabled children. I am completely against those far-right-wingers who would make abortion illegal, or even screening for genetic disabilities illegal, because I think that’s unfair for the parents, the other family members, and society as a whole. But now my not-pro-life stripes are showing again. D’oh!

    I never said I was pro-life. I just like playing Devil’s Advocate.

    You’re doing a pretty piss-poor job of it.

    I know. o.o

    And Older, on adoptions ~ I think the whole adoption industry is pretty scary (considering all the children who have died under foster care and adoptive parents recently) but nevertheless would love to adopt a few, once finances allow (likely, after I get my degree).

  190. If you’d spent any length of time reading through Feminste you’d be familiar enough with their patterns of response to know that’s the truth. While they don’t come right out and say “That ought to be illegal!” there IS a considerable amount of derision directed at women who choose large families (in addition to attachment parenting, extended breastfeeding, cloth diapering, etc etc.)…

    Um, what? If you can find where I have ever said anything derisive about large families, attachment parenting, extended breast feeding or cloth diapering, I will come to your house and I will bring you a cookie.

    Check it out:

    Breastfeeding!

    The right to have babies!

    As far as I can tell, I’ve never written about attachment parenting or cloth diapers (seriously, WTF?). If you want my two cents now, I think cloth diapers are great and environmentally-friendly. I also think that a lot of new parents don’t have the time or energy to be doing a million loads of laundry, and they may find disposable diapers easier and more convenient. I say, more power to all of them.

    As for attachment parenting, I don’t know that much about it, so I can’t really comment. My knowledge extends only as far as hearing that attachment parenting involves letting your child sleep with you whenever they want, which I personally think sounds cute to a point, but which I imagine would get old by the time the kid hit kindergarten. But then, I don’t have kids, so I really have no idea, and if parents want to let their children sleep with them, that’s fine by me. As long as we aren’t making parents feel bad or inadequate for doing the best that they can, and as long as we aren’t putting kids in danger, I’m generally cool with it.

    And I absolutely believe that the government should have NO place in telling women how many kids they can or can’t have. Seriously, find where i have ever said differently, and you will receive a magical prize.

    You can set me and my co-blogger up as your ideal straw feminists, but you’re flat-out wrong here.

  191. How nice for you. I suppose if it worked for you, it should work for everyone, because all human beings are exactly the same. You’ve missed the point, haven’t you? For many people these things are mutually exclusive.

    It would work well enough for anyone, if anyone would believe in themselves and make that kind of academic achievement a priority. But because so many people LIKE YOURSELF are telling them they Just Can’t, they don’t believe it to be the case.

    I’ve met enough girls attending college with me, with children, to know that this is possible when people have enough motivation. Of course there will be rough spots, but that’s life. 😛

    And for what it’s worth, if it were up to me, talking loudly on cell phones in restaurants would be illegal (it already is, where I live).

  192. Jill I’d love to go through the archives and find where it was posted (( in the comments section of posts )), but I just don’t have the time. Enjoy the cookie.

    I need to go finish bathing my children, and I have a paper to write.

    Have a good night, all. =^.^=

  193. If people agree with breeding any other animal to produce the most docile, intelligent, companionable, and the most *fit* offspring, why shouldn’t we apply this to humans?

    Because human beings have rights that other animals do not have, such as the right to self-determination. How is this a difficult concept?

    It would work well enough for anyone

    Wow. You really do believe that what works for you works for everyone. I’m quite speechless at your arrogant self-centeredness. Do you really not understand that people are different, and have different responses to situations? You are actually so arrogant that you believe you know me, my situation, and my capabilities better than I do. Anyone could not do that. I couldn’t. Why do you feel the need to denigrate your achievements like that?

    Anyway, how does this conviction that everyone is actually identical jibe with your eugenicist views? If everyone is fundamentally the same, with the same capabilities, what’s the point of breeding humans for given qualities?

    Then again, modern feminists don’t seem to concerned with their sisters who choose to bear children and keep them for themselves.

    That’s so true. That’s why it’s the anti-feminist right-wingers who advocate for high-quality daycare open to all regardless of capability to pay, paid maternity leave, health coverage for all, adequate protection from child and wife abuse, good accessible prenatal care, the removal of stigma from single-mother households, custody rights and adequate child support for mothers, etc. etc.

  194. SarahMC Says:
    July 31st, 2007 at 10:56 am

    Pro-lifers refuse to answer the burning building question. I’ve asked it countless times and they always complain that such a scenario is unlikely to happen (or some other lame excuse they think lets them off the hook). Uh, no shit; that’s not the point.

    Sorry I had to put in, this is not what happen when Katrina hit. Clarify just a little and say so long as they are acceptable to society. Because alot of people died in that hospital while they saved the Embryos and everyone knew it.

    It was sick and it was twisted, but it’s exactly what would happen now.

  195. …my apologies if i splattered my RCOB on anybody who’d rather have avoided it, there. the point i’m trying to make is that this Kantian handwaving about “intentions”, “unintentional outcomes”, and whatnot, is so clearly (to me) kabuki theater. what matters is the outcome, and they surely must know it. they’re only trying to fool themselves, and they’re doing a bad job of it

    No need for apologies, Nomen Nesico. What you say is 100% correct. As a matter of fact, I’d go even further, and say this reasoning goes beyound cowardice–it is sadism. To willfully mutilate another human being just so you can feel better about yourself is vile. Catholic “hospitals” should not be allowed to call themselves hospitals if they encourage that type of practice.

  196. licious Says:
    July 31st, 2007 at 11:10 am

    I am curious. On the flipside, considering it’s a woman’s absolute right over her own body, how stringent (if at all?) do you wish legal abortion to be?

    Probably get flamed for this, but So long as that fetus is in her body, you or anyone else has no rights to say what happens.

    That’s the way I see it. I am completely for HER decision. Doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks, feels, sees, hears, or knows.

    It is HER BODY. Not ours, not the states, not anyone’s. It’s Hers!

  197. Flower,

    You know, countries with complete bans on abortion do not always allow for exemptions for ectopic pregnancy, even when they know that continuing the pregnancy will kill the woman.

    Since you’re such a big fan of eugenics, why be half assed about it? Why not just declare that any woman flawed enough to become ectopically pregnant or have other serious complications should just drop dead and clear out the gene pool? Come on, now! Stand behind your convictions!

    Re your GPA and whatnot: Good for you, but personal anecdotes are not a wise basis for making arbitrary decisions for others.

  198. # Vanessa Says:
    July 31st, 2007 at 3:44 pm

    Make more & better contraceptives,
    Increase options for quick, safe, confidential and easy baby drop off.

    While I and I’d be willing to guess pretty much every pro-choicer you’d meet am for both of these things, I think the increased ‘option for baby drop off’ does ignore the fact that being pregnant is not an easy thing you can just do while continuing to live your life.

    It impacts your life and sometimes renders you unable to work. Not to mention, if you’re in a situation where you have to hide a pregnancy from your parents, spouse/boyfriend, or employer, relying on this option really won’t work.

    Yeah, and here is the proof of that.
    here

    Why? Why? WHY?? Why does it have to be like this?

  199. I need to go finish bathing my children, and I have a paper to write.

    Maybe THIS time, we will get a troll who really leaves the discussion after the exit line. Hope springs eternal.

  200. Jill,

    No need to insult me – unless you are terrifically insecure in yourself.

    That’s just stupid. If their lives are EQUAL, why would minor harm to the fetus trump major harm to the mother?

    Actually, if we’re talking stupid, your answer takes the cake. Here’s the deal: A doctor cannot treat a person for illness if treating them means killing or injuring someone else. Not ok. If your survival depends on me giving you my kidney and I refuse, a doctor can’t just take it. If a woman is going to die in childbirth and the only solution is to induce an abortion, that can’t happen if a fetus is considered a “person.” If a woman needs cancer treatment and the treatment will kill her fetus — a legal person — there are a whole slew of ethical and legal issues that come up. “

    You changed the question. You started off with minor harm to the fetus to prevent major harm to the mother, and then, when that was answered, went to mortal danger to prevent mortal harm. I answered your initial question (and did so superlatively, which is why you are unable to respond).

    As for organ donation – I’ll repeat, because you missed it the first go-round: we do not change biology. Biological acts of aggression (if they can even be so called) are not the same as governmental or human acts of aggression. Pregnancy = biological issue; Siamese twins = biological issue. Tough break for those involved, but we don’t rectify the situation with murder. Seizure of organs = human act of aggression = not okay.

    You are too focused on making analogies to the results of the exercise of human rights, which is a philosophical hackery.

    Yes, there are legal and ethical issues that come up. What it tells us, though, is that there are legal and ethical issues when a mother’s life is in danger.

    Imagine conjoined twins. One of them has to die. Do you let nature take its course, or are you truly unable to decide which to allow to live?

    Congrats. At best, you’ve advocated for a rule which allows pregnant woman a “life” exception, under the theory that this is a medical and ethical cesspool that cannot truly be litigated.

    What you have not done is established why it’s okay for a woman to pay someone to suction the brain out of her own child because she doesn’t quite feel like having a child with a man she fucked.

    “[Pro-lifers] argue that fetuses are people, and yet you seem to be saying that fetuses, as a class, are less important than born children, and that’s ok because we all make certain distinctions when it comes to who we value. Nuh-uh, doesn’t work. You’re mixing up individuals valuing individuals they love over individuals valuing an entire class of people over another. Those are very different things.

    Fetuses are alive. Guess what? I don’t think they’re as important as born women. Not even close. Why? Because, unlike the three-year-old in my burning building scenario, they aren’t sentient. They don’t have the same connections that born people do. They don’t have the same ability to experience fear, pain, etc. They may be human, but they are not people. “

    Human but not people. Wow – sounds familiar. Let me recall: same thing whites said about blacks up through the 19th Century; same thing that Hitler said about the Jews and gays; same thing that every group which seeks to exterminate another says. It’s pathetic and dehumanising.

    I presume, if sentience is your standard, that you would approve of the murder for convenience of a person in a persistent vegetative state? That you would allow us to harvest their organs? After all, they are not sentient and may never be (compared to an embryo, which, at 8 weeks, has a 90% chance of live birth). I presume you would also approve of murder of the severely mentally retarded. After all, if sentience determines personhood, it shouldn’t matter whether or not the woman is even involved.

    Under your standard, if/when an artificial womb is developed and fetuses of all stages can be kept alive, you would allow the murder on the operating table of a viable infant, simply because it’s not a person.

    That is the extent of your logic. It should repulse you. Heard of Peter Singer? Thanks for advocating for him today.

    As for the same connections that born people have: I presume you are talking about how other people value them. Interesting perspective – I presume you agree with the philosophy of all genocidal maniacs, who hold that individuals of no value to others may be exterminated at will. I presume that you would also approve of the murder of a homeless person – after all, the homeless lack connections.

    As for the ability to experience fear and pain: such depends on the validity of our scientific experiments. If science could determine that infants do not feel pain and fear until 4 months, would you approve of their murder until then? If they could feel pain at 5 weeks but not fear, would you approve of their murder? If a brain-damaged person were incapable of experiencing fear, would you allow them killed?

    Interesting to see what happens when your standard of human rights depends on sentience (murder of the temporarily comatose and the mentally disabled), connections (murder of the homeless or those who are not loved), and the ability to experience fear (infanticide). Culture of death, indeed.

    “What if one twin is the parasite twin and the other houses all the essential bodily functions to keep both of them alive? One twin can survive on its own. The other cannot. If you separate them, the other will die. These are both born people who we consider individuals. Can you remove the other twin, knowing that removal will kill him?”

    No, you can’t. Biology might suck, but it’s not an excuse for murder.

    If it were acceptable, we would have to perform an analysis, every time Siamese twins were born, of which organs each twin had. Then, we would have to determine a threshold percentage of “parasite-ness” that would trigger the right of one twin to kill the other. Of course, that right could be exercised on a sentient twin, years down the road. (But I thought you used sentience as your gold standard…???)

    —-

    But if an embryo is, in fact, a person as you have said, then it has already taken the affirmative action of implanting itself and using the woman’s body for its own survival. It’s not cognizant of what it’s doing, but that doesn’t seem to be a requirement of personhood. Instead, the woman’s body has already been violated by another actor; does she really have no right to assert her right to bodily integrity in response?

    ROFLMAO! Thanks for the smile.

    Let me see: the woman had sex. She, through her own action and the action of her lover, created the child in question. She even went so far as to create it in her own uterus. She then calls it an invader. LMAO!!!! 🙂 Oh, anti-lifers are cute when they act like the stork brings babies. 🙂

    1. Biological processes are not acts of aggression. If they were, burping would be illegal.

    2. Between the mother and the child, one is in a position to prevent the situation in question. The other is not – by definition, did not even exist when she had sex. The harm should rest upon the person who is in the best position to prevent it.

    3. She has a right of bodily integrity. That does not mean that she may assert it by whatever mechanism she chooses. If murder is the only available mechanism, she still does not have a right to that particular method of asserting her bodily integrity (against the person whom she created by an affirmative act). The fact that no appropriate mechanism exists to assert a right does not mean that one may assert it via murder.

    4. The balance of harms is not equal. One is inconvenienced for nine months; the other is dead. Assuming, arguendo, that you are correct about the “invader” nature of the child, she still may not meet non-lethal force with lethal force. Trump card.

    But self-defense is almost never pre-meditated. Abortion is. That makes it very different from someone wielding a gun at you. Here’s a better scenario: If you know that a person close to you is going to become violent through no fault of their own (severe mental illness, let’s say, to use your example), and you suspect that they are going to harm and very possibly kill you, can you hire someone else to kill them first?

    Your scenario is bad. You SUSPECT that they are going to kill you? Um, no – did you miss the “imminent” part of “imminent harm?”

    My argument was in relation to medical self-defence (i.e. when a woman’s life is in danger). Abortion is not premediated in those circumstances, Jill. Again, you change the circumstances and confuse the issues when faced with a trump card.

    Dude, you’re such a dumbass it hurts. HOW DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY HAVE DIED? Are we going to examine every tampon? Do forensic exams on every pair of panties? I would suggest going back to 7th grade sex ed, where you learn that fertilized eggs — people, under anti-choice definitions — often don’t implant in the uterine lining, and are naturally flushed out of the woman’s body. She was never technically pregnant, and the fertilized egg would never show up on a pregnancy test. So, if it’s “cake,” please explain to me how, exactly, we would know how many eggs get flushed out every day.

    Don’t call me names. I’m sorry that you missed a little thing that we call “sarcasm,” but give it a try next time.

    So your theory: if you cannot determine the death rate, the people in question didn’t die.

    So, under Jilly’s standard, since we can’t determine the death rate of concentration camp victims, I guess they weren’t really people. After all, are we going to examine every inch of Europe to count skulls and DNA match them against known populations? If someone can’t count your death, you’re not a person? Trump card!

    Moving onwards: scientists have EXCELLENT estimates of the percentages of zygotes that never implant; those which implant and never develop; and those which develop and are reabsorbed by the body. Start at the birth rate and work backwards, if this “Death rate” is so freakin important to your conception of humanity.

    Now, if that doesn’t float your boat, you can use CDC estimates to figure out how many women are having sex; how frequently, broken up by age group; method of birth control (or lack thereof); failure rate of said birth control; fertility of each relevant group; and, from the above numbers, how many children were conceived. Subtract off how many were born and divide by the total.

    I still wonder why, in Jill-land, one needs to determine the death rate to five significant figures in order to consider the humans in question to be persons.

    There are dictators in the world who would love to have you as their mistress of propaganda.

  201. If one of them had benign cancer, we would certainly subject both twins to surgery or chemo to help one of them

    Benign tumors neither necessitate nor respond to chemotherapy. Plus “benign cancer” is a contradiction in terms. Cancers are by definition malignant. I think you mean “malignant cancer”. Also if one conjoined twin has a cancer, both will die of it unless it is treated so the decision to treat one is not strictly an advantage to one versus disadvantage to the other question. Those bits of pedantry out of the way, I think you do have an interesting ethical question there. Suppose one conjoined twin had a cancer. Or even better, suppose a cancer occurred in an organ that they shared. One wants aggressive treatment with chemo, surgery, radiation, whatever is recommended. The other wants to go with palliative care only. Who wins the argument? (I have no idea what the “standard” answer to this question would be, to tell the truth. I suspect that most clinicians would tell them to come back when they’d worked it out between them. I’m also not sure what this has to do with the abortion debate, since both parties involved here are sentient, but it is an interesting aside.)

  202. Ha, the kid sleeping with you gets old WAY before Kindergarten…at about the time s/he starts to roll over, in fact.

    But then, I’m funny…I believe the parents are entitled to some boundaries, and some sacrosanct “couple” aspects to their life.

    But I digress.

    Great post, greater thread, and I refuse to respond to a self-admitted eugenecist (Flower). Don’t feed her anymore. Ugh. She literally makes me feel nauseated.

    Also, just for what it’s worth — I would argue that childbirth is no longer “extremely dangerous” most of the time. Terrible concept that perpetuates the idea of birth as a medical condition requiring intensive interference from (usually male) doctors.

    That said, if giving birth were a 30-second blip on the radar, it’s still not a reason to FORCE someone to carry a fetus to term. Also, high risk pregnancies CAN be very dangerous, and at the last minute, some births turn nearly deadly. But it’s not the case most of the time.

    Finally, anyone read about the woman in Maryland who had 4 dead fetuses in various places on her property? She’s been charged with murder. Even though none of the fetuses were to term. Even though it is clear from just reading the article that this poor woman is unbelievably mentally ill.

    Aaaah, pro-life. Gotta love it.

  203. “I have absolutely no doubt that if abortion is made illegal, conditions will become monstrous for women abortion. But maybe, just maybe, they’ll get off their high horses and demand better family policies”

    The fuck? I mean, the reason I don’t particularly care for the notion of getting pregnant again, the reason I might very well abort if I did, is that, a, the last pregnancy exhausted me, and, b, raising this last child is exhausting me. Somehow the notion that it’s all right to sacrifice my health in the name of social progress doesn’t grab me.

    “It would work well enough for anyone, if anyone would believe in themselves and make that kind of academic achievement a priority”

    The reasoning here parallels that of “Well, since some women did manage to become doctors in the old days, obviously there was no need to worry about any discrimination against them in medical-school admissions”. Flower, ya aren’t seriously suggesting that having a child has a neutral effect on a woman’s ability to succeed in school, are ya? ‘Cause if you are I might have to go have a drink, and it’s damned sad to see a mother of young children getting drunk off her ass at this hour of the morning, and I know you wouldn’t want to be responsible for anything like that.

  204. I have absolutely no doubt that if abortion is made illegal, conditions will become monstrous for women abortion. But maybe, just maybe, they’ll get off their high horses and demand better family policies

    Are you under the impression that it’s currently pro-lifers, or Republicans advocating for better family policies?! That’s hilarious. Nothing the “family values” party does actually serves families. It makes them feel good, sure, by distorting information about sex and making sure little Susie doesn’t see a heinous nipple on the television. Feminists have been advocating for family-friendly social policies for… ever.

  205. My, this does fill up fast.
    Answer to post 144 Sarah

    Yes I do throw many people for a loop. For people who do not share the same religious belief, religion is just noise and is not useful for argument.

    We as a culture to respect llife need to also respect preganancy no matter when, where, or who. This can be done but it runs into the brick wall of using pregnancy as such a nice handle to belittle and make fun of others for your own personal gain. Never ever say any prerganancy is bad. Never make snide remarks as to how old, rich, poor, color, race, status, or marital status led to the pregnancy. Respecting life also means respecting pregnant mothers and leads to respecting lactating mothers. In the end a woman most often aborts because someone somewhere gave her a negative impression of what a pregnancy or baby will be.

    What I do as my part is
    Always welcome a pregnant mother to say what she will without criticism. If she talks about abortion I will say I am against it and then say it is her decision and then I shut up.
    If I am talking to a man and infedelity comes up I mention how much bigger and better a person if the pregnancy and child resulting is not treated as a problem but a chance to reconnect.

    We need to stop reaising our eyebrows and gossipping and tearing down each other. And if you want to see it in more familiar terms this can be seen as an extension of slut shaming. For what is abortion but a means to hide the evidence of being a slut.

  206. theobromophile said…”Let me see: the woman had sex. She, through her own action and the action of her lover, created the child in question. She even went so far as to create it in her own uterus. She then calls it an invader. LMAO!!!! 🙂 Oh, anti-lifers are cute when they act like the stork brings babies. :)”

    So under this logic – A woman smokes cigarettes, lots and lots of cigarettes. She then develops lung cancer. Through her own actions she has created the cancer in question. She even went so far as to create it in her own lungs! So, she cannot call it an invader. She can not take action to get rid of it. She will have to keep it and allow it wreak its havoc on her body and her life. Whee!

    Granted, babies are much different than cancer, but what you’re calling for here is that people take responsibility for their own actions. People who destroy their livers through excessive drinking shouldn’t seek treatment when the livers in question eventually begin to fail?

    Again, I acknowledge that babies and cancer are different!

  207. ^ I acknowledge that because I don’t want this turn into a big discussion about me being evil for calling babies cancer.

  208. Nick,

    I don’t know if you’re still around, but I’m curious about your response to the burning building question. I understand that you feel like you don’t have a good answer to that question, and don’t know what you would do in that situation. And I don’t think it’s reasonable to press a pro-lifer and expect him/her to have an answer to every difficult question. What I don’t understand is why this is a difficult question for you. If you were to ask me whether I would rather save one stranger or 100 strangers, I would find that a very easy question. You can change the conditions of the question to make it one white, adult, male stranger, and 100 blacks, 100 newborn infants, or 100 women (still all strangers), and I still find the question quite easy—their race, age, or gender would just be an immediately irrelevant distraction. (This is not to say that I might not feel guilty about letting the one person die; just that, in the abstract, I feel very comfortable with my decision.) So what makes the burning building question difficult for you when it’s one child and 100 embryos? If I were to ask you whether you would save one stranger or 100 strangers, would you also find that a difficult question?

    God love you too, Nick, if that means anything coming from an atheist.

  209. Granted, babies are much different than cancer,

    Hmm…Invasion of normal tissues, rapid growth, expression of genes turned off in normal adult tissues, neovascularization, dependence on the host for nutrient…are you SURE that embryos and cancer are so different? (Hint for the forced birth crowd: this is a nerd joke, not an expression of a deepseated belief that babies=cancer. Or even fetuses=cancer. Of course they don’t. Well, maybe teratomas…ahem, moving right along before the joke gets obscure…)

  210. Ok, I have an alternate ethical question: You’re traveling through a country which is unfortunate enough to be ruled by a mad dictator. You come across this scene: 101 people, none of whom you know or know anything about, are about to be executed. But the mad dictator sees you and says that in honor of you (the first foreign tourist in Maddictatorland in 152 years), he will pardon some of the condemned. He then procedes to throw a 101 sided die (yes, I know, but this is a Gedankenexperiment and it takes place in a world where 101 sided dice are possible). It lands on number 82. He then gives you the choice: should #82 be the only one executed or the only one pardoned. You hesitate, suspecting that the die was rigged and that #82 is the leader of the resistance or rightful king or something similar. The mad dictator sighs and says, “So suspicious, foreigners.” But he rolls again. This time the number is 58. He again asks if 58 should be the one spared or the one condemned. He will keep rolling random numbers until you give an answer or everyone dies of starvation*. So, what’s it to be. Do you save 100 people or one person. You can not save all 101 and there is no way to choose the best person to save: the assignment of the one who will die is truly random. Which do you do?

    *Although I suppose you can also just say “kill them all” and be complicit in the death of 101 strangers.

  211. I believe that if a couple is having sex, they need to consider pregnancy as a risk even with contraceptive usage — and if they are unprepared to have a baby maybe they shouldn’t be having sex.

    That is absolutely ridiculous. I have two kids. I love them immensely (I can’t believe that I even have to put that qualifier in there). And I have sex with my husband on a regular basis. We use contraception and are ivery careful, but of course pregnancy is still a risk. Especially considering that I and all the women in my family seem to be hyper fertile. However, if I get pregnant after all my precautions against it, I will have an abortion. Because I don’t want to be pregnant again and I don’t want any more children. It isn’t fair to any child for its mother to resent its existence, and I would. That may make me a horrible person, but I know myself and I know my limits, and the two I already have are about it. Adoption also isn’t an option, because I just DO NOT WANT TO BE PREGNANT!

    So, does that mean that I should never have penetrative sex again with my husband? Because I’m not willing to give that up just to avoid getting pregnant, especially when there are so many other ways to avoid that particular consequence. Does it also mean that my sister, who also seems to get pregnant easily, needs to stop having sex with her husband? Because her two kids almost killed her and she would not survive another one. Or my mom, who is 50 and has the ovaries of a 30 year old woman (according to her doc)? She could very easily get pregnant too, and then have to give birth to and raise a child well into old age. Or maybe my two severely diabetic cousins, who also would have their lives endangered by getting pregnant again. Should they also just stop having any kind of penetrative sex, just because their health problems preclude pregnancy?

  212. Hi Autumn. I do want to try and answer to the best of my abilities, and I’ll try not to dance around the question, so I’ll explain some of the ideas that I hold important in this situation. If the question has the deeper meaning of “which is more important, a three year old or 100 embryos” my answer to that is that they have the same moral worth because I believe they are human persons with dignity, and so I say that a single three year old is as important as 100 embryos and vice versa. However, I realize that you actually want me to put myself in the situation of a fire and choose the life(s) I would save. I could be wrong, but in a situation like that, I would want to save as many lives as possible. Right now, in theory, I lean towards saving the 100 embryos. This would follow from the philosophy that in an emergency situation, you try and save as many lives as possible. But the thing is, to really try and put myself in that situation, its hard to imagine leaving a child that I can see, and grabbing a box or whatever. But this is personhood theory, which says basically that the intrinsic and moral worth of a person is based on what they can do, consciousness, self-awareness, etc. So there is this conflict in an emergency, pressure situation between my mind and my feelings. Intellectually I would know that there are 100 human beings, each individual and unique, but that I can’t see. On the other hand, there is a viable, human being that I can see and who can “do things.” But truth is truth, not a matter of feelings, so I lean towards saving the embryos. I hope makes sense. And again, I don’t know that much, I could very well be wrong about a lot of this. That’s what I think right now. God love you, Autumn. And yes, saying that does mean something coming from an atheist 🙂

  213. So under this logic – A woman smokes cigarettes, lots and lots of cigarettes. She then develops lung cancer. Through her own actions she has created the cancer in question. She even went so far as to create it in her own lungs! So, she cannot call it an invader. She can not take action to get rid of it. She will have to keep it and allow it wreak its havoc on her body and her life. Whee

    Another common pro-abortion fallacy.

    I want women to receive medical care for pregnancy. It’s called prenatal testing and care. We certainly allow women to go to hospitals during labour and delivery: in fact, we’ve even made laws that mandate that hospitals give care to pregnant women, regardless of ability to pay.

    Likewise, go ahead and treat your cancer. Just don’t kill someone else to get their healthy lungs. If medicine (in the true sense, not the abortion sense) is not a sufficient remedy, sucks to be you – but you don’t get to kill another human in the name of your own medical care.

    Here, the analogies:
    prenatal care =~ chemo (a free society allows you to pursue both as a matter of right)
    abortion=~ stealing the lungs of another (not okay – your own need does not justify harming another)

  214. But the thing is, to really try and put myself in that situation, its hard to imagine leaving a child that I can see, and grabbing a box or whatever.

    Yeah, that’s really the kicker, isn’t it ? Because that child, if you leave it, would burn to death and feel every second of it, and the box won’t feel a thing.

    That to me is an argument for legal abortion, in favor of the rights of women. Because an embryo is a possibility, sure, a delightful bundle of maybes and what-ifs. The mother is thinking, feeling, and alive.

  215. I lean towards saving the 100 embryos.

    Nick, from what you’ve written here, you sound like you’re really a sincere and probably genuinely nice person. Nonetheless, remind me to NEVER ask you to babysit.

  216. “Because that child, if you leave it, would burn to death and feel every second of it, and the box won’t feel a thing.”

    That’s a good point, O.O. To be honest, I didn’t think about that. Now that you’ve brought that angle to my attention, I think that’s strong evidence for saving the child. The difference in carrying the argument over to abortion, though, is that in the fire example it’s life vs. life, where as in abortion it’s life vs. “something non life-threatening” (most of the time; I know there are times when, indeed, the mother’s life is in danger, but most of the time the reasons are different.) But I’ll certainly think about all this some more. God love you, OO.

  217. I presume, if sentience is your standard, that you would approve of the murder for convenience of a person in a persistent vegetative state? That you would allow us to harvest their organs? After all, they are not sentient and may never be (compared to an embryo, which, at 8 weeks, has a 90% chance of live birth). I presume you would also approve of murder of the severely mentally retarded. After all, if sentience determines personhood, it shouldn’t matter whether or not the woman is even involved.

    Theo, reread this, what Jill said that you wrot the above in response to:

    Fetuses are alive. Guess what? I don’t think they’re as important as born women. Not even close. Why? Because, unlike the three-year-old in my burning building scenario, they aren’t sentient. They don’t have the same connections that born people do. They don’t have the same ability to experience fear, pain, etc. They may be human, but they are not people.

    MEANING, and I can’t speak for Jill here, but I’m going to make a guess that she does not believe that people in a persistent vegetative state, or the severely mentally retarded are not people. Why? Because they DO have those connections that born people have (because the person is BORN) and the ability to experience pain, fear, etc.

    Reading the entire comment before replying to it, and generally understanding the person’s arguments, is helpful when trying to argue against it.

  218. To be honest, I didn’t think about that … But I’ll certainly think about all this some more.

    Nick, the thing is here that you seem to be surprised that all us pro-choice people here are people that have obviously thought things through, and have coherent, meaningful conversations about things.

    That’s the point though; we’re pro-choice BECAUSE we are the kind of people that think through our positions, that use reason, rationality, evidence, and experience to form opinions and positions that are easily and ethically defensible.

    And we’re not all that different from anyone else who is pro-choice.

    I’m willing to compromise on all but a couple of my political positions, but being pro-choice is one of the two that I am not (being pro same-sex marriage is the other, in case you wonder). This is because it really makes no sense to be anything other than pro-choice. Sure, you can have a coherent and consistent position based on the premise of equating a fetus/zygote/etc with a child, but it’s still an insane premise, no matter how coherent your position is that is based on that.

    Think about it for a while.

    (oh, and please enough with the god-talk, it’s insulting to a lot of us)

  219. Nick, I am in vehement disagreement with pretty much everything you say, but you still stand out as the only thoughtful, rational, capable of constructing a rational and logically consistent argument, pro-lifer I have ever met. Most just rely on insults and professions of their superior intelligence (in the complete absence of evidence supporting said intelligence), or blind repetition of pro-life talking points and deliberate re-framing the question/answer so that’s it’s no longer even occupying the same universe as the original question.

    But, like someone above said, I’d flee any country you were in charge of. In the meantime, I suggest you read Atwood’s The Handmaid’s Tale.

  220. To be honest, I didn’t think about that.

    Gasp! Are you kidding me?! That’s why women carrying Z/E/Fs need protection above those Z/E/Fs – because women are sentinent, thinking, feeling people who have awareness re: their situations. Fertilized eggs? None of the above.

  221. If you think of the burning clinic situation as a theoretical construct, it’s real easy to save the embryos. That’s the problem with the pro-life position-it relies on theoretical constructs, not actual, real-life situations. Getting a pro-lifer to think about what that theory means in real life (child horribly, painfully, burning to death) is what the burning clinic question tries to do.

  222. MEANING, and I can’t speak for Jill here, but I’m going to make a guess that she does not believe that people in a persistent vegetative state, or the severely mentally retarded are not people. Why? Because they DO have those connections that born people have (because the person is BORN) and the ability to experience pain, fear, etc.

    So a person in a PVS who canonot experience fear (if you ignored the redundant nature of such, I will, too) and has no one who loves her, can we kill her in good conscience? Imagine that you are driving down the highway after a fight with your family and get into a car wreck. You’re not sentient and no one wants you. Are you fair game, even though you will most likely wake up?

    I actually brought up situations to address the pain/fear issue and the connections issue. To use your own words: it’s helpful to read before trying to argue against it. 🙂

  223. They look at “partial birth abortion” the same way, JPlum. All they can think about is, “It’s so brutal to stab a widdle baby in the head and suck it’s brains out right before it’s supposed to be born!”
    But they completely miss the real life reasons the procedure is safer than the alternatives, the actual reasons women/doctors elect to do the procedure, and the fact that the term is very misleading. They don’t do their research. They think babies are being murdered while they’re being born. They think women actually choose to get it done because they feel like it. They ignore the fact that many, many, “PBA’s” are performed on wanted fetuses.

  224. That’s the point though; we’re pro-choice BECAUSE we are the kind of people that think through our positions, that use reason, rationality, evidence, and experience to form opinions and positions that are easily and ethically defensible.

    The more I think things through, the more pro-life I become.

    A quick re-write of the fire situation: you are in a burning hospital. You can either carry out a person with a broken leg or a person with localised brain damage who cannot feel pain but is otherwise sentient. Which do you carry out? On the basis of the fact that one will die no matter what, why not carry out the one who would suffer more if left inside? If you have a choice between persuading a woman to dump her lousy boyfriend or save the 100 embryos, which one would you do?

    The “point” of the burning building scenario is to adduce from it that embryos really aren’t human and should not be valued as such. Yet, applied to any other situation, we realise that it only tells us this: who we would save when forced to make a decision. It does not tell us that people who have localised brain damage are less human than those with broken legs.

    There is no way that you can get from a burning building to abortion on demand. In the burning building, you’re still talking about the LIFE of the toddler – not its convenience, not its swollen ankles, not its crappy boyfriend, but its LIFE.

    I can tell you that I would rather save 100 embryos from a burning building than get one woman to dump her crappy boyfriend. THAT is the relevant standard for the abortion debate, not some absurd situation that does not mirror the realities of pregnancy.

  225. On the basis of the fact that one will die no matter what, why not carry out the one who would suffer more if left inside?

    Well that’s what I’d do. :shrug:

    I will never understand how y’all can view a petri dish w/ a fertilized egg in it as the same thing as yourself, your mother, or a stranger half a world away.

  226. They ignore the fact that many, many, “PBA’s” are performed on wanted fetuses.

    Yes, one thing the ban on so-called partial birth abortion accomplishes is keeping women who have already had to make the agonizing decision of aborting their wanted fetuses for whatever reason from being able to view and say goodbye to an intact fetus. With so-called partial birth abortion, not only is a woman’s future fertility protected, but she is able to have an intact fetus washed off, wrapped in a blanket, and say goodbye to it.

    Under the so-called partial birth abortion ban, a doctor in that same situation has to cut the fetus up into pieces, risking puncturing the woman’s uterus and robbing her not only of that final moment but possibly of her ability to have children in the future. Pretty cruel if you ask me, especially just to enable a bunch of old white men to get re-elected by their self-righteous constituency.

  227. theobromophile,
    are you a man?
    ’cause *sigh* only a man could dismiss the ordeal of pregnancy and childbirth as simply an inconvenience.

  228. But, like someone above said, I’d flee any country you were in charge of. In the meantime, I suggest you read Atwood’s The Handmaid’s Tale.

    As a cautionary tale or a how-to-guide?

  229. “Nick, the thing is here that you seem to be surprised that all us pro-choice people here are people that have obviously thought things through, and have coherent, meaningful conversations about things.”

    I don’t mean to give that impression. All I mean is that I’ve only been studying the issue very seriously for a short period of time, and most people that I know are indifferent to the whole abortion debate. Of course, I know that many pro-choicers are extremely intelligent and have well thought out arguments. I can read all the articles and books I want, but it’s helpful to discuss this with people who feel just as passionately as I do. I just hadn’t found any of them, really, that I could discuss things with. I also have no problem admitting when I don’t take something into consideration or don’t see a good point; this is another reason I want to hear what you have to say. Autumn wanted an answer, I didn’t want to keep dodging the question, so I gave her an answer to the best of my ability at that point in time. Obviously I’m not very sharp. But i don’t want to come in here as the pro-life guy vs. the pro-choicers, I want to have friendly dialogue. That doesn’t mean I compromise, it doesn’t mean ya’ll compromise. I can learn a lot from all. Which brings me to the “god-talk.” I’m sorry to those of you that it insults. I just want everyone to know that I care deeply for them, in fact, even though I”ve never met any of you, I can honestly say that I love all of you. We’re all in this life together, and I want happiness for everyone. Truly. That’s where I’m coming from.

  230. Look, this 100 embryos in a clinic thing is so irritating to me personally, mostly because I seem to be the only person on this thread who actually has a dog in this fight:

    I actually HAVE a frozen embryo being stored for me at a fertility clinic.

    Here’s the truth. I do not want heroic measures taken if something happens at the clinic. I do not want the lives of actual human beings sacrificed or endangered for the sake of that frozen embryo.

    My reasons for this are multiple, but include the insanely low pregnancy/birth rates for frozen embryo transfers, meaning one embryo DOES NOT EQUAL one baby and also include the fact that all frozen embryos are kept in these ginormous tanks filled with liquid nitrogen behind locked and keycarded doors, so while you, the hypothetical “rescuer” were trying to figure out how to get in there and wrestle the tanks out the door, you would burn to a crisp, which would be…um…not smart. Kind of a waste, really.

  231. wow. i stand corrected, annejumps.
    it’s unfortunate that these women aren’t aware of the some of the potential dangers of pregnancy and childbirth. i wonder if that is due to a lack of knowledge on their part or willful ignorance.

    however lame that is, i gotta say that i find it infuriating when men show up in a reproductive rights thread and start waxing hypothetical about how it’s all about the baybeeez. they’ll just never know or understand this issue in a firsthand way, so i think they should support women they love and quit telling other women how we should think, feel and act regarding our bodies and our pregnancies.

  232. Which brings me to the “god-talk.” I’m sorry to those of you that it insults. I just want everyone to know that I care deeply for them, in fact, even though I”ve never met any of you, I can honestly say that I love all of you.

    Then Nick, may I politely suggest that when you want to express affection for a large group of people (or even one new person), you may want to think of and phrase things in such a way that it appeals to them, since such an expression would be about them and not you, as you are suggesting.

  233. same thing that Hitler said about the Jews and gays;

    Funnily, Hitler was utterly opposed to abortion, whereas Jewish law permits abortion and does not treat a fetus as the same as a born human beginning at conception. But do try again with your half-ass analogies. Surely there’s some other minority group you can drag in to be your cardboard prop.

    Let me see: the woman had sex. She, through her own action and the action of her lover, created the child in question.

    Let me see: so if the woman was raped, then we should reconsider this whole murder thing? It’s only a human life if the conception was through fun sex?

  234. For what is abortion but a means to hide the evidence of being a slut.

    you’re kidding me, right? or are you really one of those people who thinks, ‘poor thing, she got an abortion because her boyfriend won’t marry her.’ women get abortions for lots of reasons, but the main one is they don’t want to be pregnant.

  235. The more I think things through, the more pro-life I become.

    the more i listen to my fellow americans, the more i want to move to sweden.

  236. It would work well enough for anyone, if anyone would believe in themselves and make that kind of academic achievement a priority.

    LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!! Because no-one has learning disorders or disabilities or anything! If they’d just WORK HARD ENOUGH AT BEING NORMAL, it’d be all good!!!!

    Oh, you are just a blast, Flower. Your naivete is amazing.

  237. Nick, thank you for explaining your feelings on the burning building question so clearly. If I can ask you another question (since you seem to have become the designated, well-spoken, representative of the pro-life movement), can you explain more how you think the welfare of the woman and embryo should be balanced when the pregnancy risks the life of the woman? Specifically, why is removing the fallopian tube an appropriate response to an ectopic pregnancy, rather than applying a drug such as methotrexate? With both procedures (or no procedure), there is a 100% certainty that the embryo will die. I don’t see how that death is more an unintended consequence with one procedure than the other. The only difference to the embryo seems to be an arbitrary line about what sort of ways it is permissible for an embryo to die. The difference to the woman is that she loses her Fallopian tubes and her ability to give birth, and suffers the increased risks associated with surgery. I understand(*) your desire to balance the welfare of the embryo with the welfare of the woman. But, to me, it looks as if the welfare of the woman gets terribly low weight if it’s beaten out by an arbitrary line about permissible ways for embryos to die. Triage cases can be exceptionally difficult, but this one seems like it would be easy for me even if I gave the fetus and the mother equal weight. Am I missing something? God love you, Nick.

    (*) Though disagree with, to put it mildly.

  238. Then there is something truly screwed-up about your thought processes *shrug*

    Well, thank you for the second (or third?) gratuitous attack on my intellect.

    Many people (especially women) become more pro-life as they age. Among my friends, I’ve seen a lot who shift to the anti-abortion perspective in their mid/late 20s.

    I do not want this to degenerate into a “You’re dumb!” “No, you’re dumb!” argument, which is where you are taking it. There have been fairly unsubstantiated claims about the intellect of pro-choicers (and the supposed stupidity of pro-lifers); frankly, if the only thing y’all can do is call us dumb, there aren’t many good arguments left for the current abortion-on-demand system.

    There is a philosophical debate (about the value of humanity and when we believe that a human is vested with human rights) and a values debate (how we value the needs and rights of each of the child and the mother). It is really silly to pretend that anyone who puts a different weight on those values is mentally damaged.

    (Given how you all seem to value mentally inferiour people – i.e. finding them worthy of death – such a pronouncement is downright terrifying.)

  239. “Many people (especially women) become more pro-life as they age.”

    Really? Because I’ve had the opposite experience.

    Young girls tend to be very strongly pro-life*, because they identify with the potential baby more than the pregnant woman. And I do mean pro-life, because they exactly aren’t against choice, they mostly just don’t understand what the choices really are.

    Once they get older and are able to place themselves in the position of a pregnant woman (or become one themselves) their personal feelings on the wrongness of abortion sometimes strengthens, but their greater understanding of the situation tends to make them politically pro-choice – to varying degrees.

    The stats that say more women are anti-choice tend to phrase the question is such a way as to encourage people to consider what they would like people to do versus what they think people should be legally allowed to do. If I remember right, the numbers change drastically when the phrasing changes to emphasis the issue of legality.

    So a person in a PVS who canonot experience fear…and has no one who loves her, can we kill her in good conscience?

    You’re still taking the woman out of the picture, as if the fetus wasn’t inside her or anything. Even once you’ve accepted that the fetus has value, it isn’t just a question of if the fetus is worth saving, it’s a question of priority. It’s not a question of whether you think a person in a vegetative state is worth saving (and yeah, if the doctors had no hope, I’d pull the plug) it’s a question of if the state is justified in denying personal liberty in order to do save the fetus.

    *Well, kids actually tend to just parrot what their parents say, but my personal experiences suggest that teen girls are more likely to be persuaded by horror tales of uncaring mothers. For obvious reasons.

  240. @ theobromophile
    “Human but not people. Wow – sounds familiar.”
    Unfortunately, you can’t liken this to the kinds of prejudice you want to. You see, pro-choice individuals aren’t acting out of malice to the unborn (regardless of what you may believe)–they hold their position because it is the only way to recognize the mother’s bodily autonomy.

    “I presume, if sentience is your standard, that you would approve of the murder…”
    No. Your examples don’t provide for any reasonable justification of such action. Abortion is justified because otherwise the woman’s rights would be unjustly compromised.
    “Under your standard, if/when an artificial womb is developed and fetuses of all stages can be kept alive, you would allow the murder on the operating table of a viable infant, simply because it’s not a person.”
    Not necessarily, because no is saying anything goes. You’re being ridiculous.

  241. Well, I can add the counter anecdote of myself and two of my sisters who have become pro-choice the older we get, myself and my 19 year old sister radically so. I know several friends who have also become pro-choice because we truly thought through our positions, thought about the consequences and realized the truly consistent, logical approach was a pro-choice position, even if we still found abortion distasteful (which I don’t, at least not until very late in the pregnancy). Shocking as it may sound to many anti-abortion people, I am actually MORE pro-choice after being pregnant.

  242. Yeah, absolutely Mickle. That was my exact experience, the older I get and the more I understand the reality of pregnancy, motherhood, abortion and all possible complications, the more I understood that being pro-choice just made sense.

  243. theobromophile, why will you not answer Jill’s original question? If you get to rewrite the laws, how much time would a woman who has an abortion serve? Your answer was that the question was “bullshit” because it’s up to the judge and the jury. I’m sorry, but this makes no sense at all. I can’t understand why a law student would need this spelled out, but when we make something a crime, we set ranges for what the normal punishments are for typical versions of the crime. We don’t just say that something’s a crime and then leave it up to the judge and jury to decide how upset they are by that crime. And yeah, any crime might have mitigating factors that reduce the sentence, or aggravating factors that bump it up; but we start with a baseline typical punishment for a typical version of the crime.

  244. If you get to rewrite the laws, how much time would a woman who has an abortion serve? Your answer was that the question was “bullshit” because it’s up to the judge and the jury. I’m sorry, but this makes no sense at all. I can’t understand why a law student would need this spelled out, but when we make something a crime, we set ranges for what the normal punishments are for typical versions of the crime.

    Autumn Harvest,

    Thing is, the crimes of “murder” and “manslaughter” and “premeditated murder” have already been defined. You would simply be prosecuting for murder under the already-applicable regulations.

    What you are asking for, which is the b.s. in question, is for homicide statutes and separate homicide-by-abortion statutes.

    but we start with a baseline typical punishment for a typical version of the crime.

    It is painful that YOU need this spelled out. Killing your mother is a crime. How much time do you get for that? If you cannot give me a “baseline typical punishment” for killing your mother, does that mean that it isn’t illegal?

    We do NOT have one set of punishments for murder of one’s mother, another for murder of a stranger, and another for murder of one’s boss. The identity of the victim does not determine the nature of the punishment in question. Neither does the method of execution: if I use a gun to shoot a cop, I’ll get a hell of a lot more jail time than if I use a gun to shoot an armed robber.

    This is so obvious it’s painful. You and Jill are just addicted to your “Gotcha!” that you can’t see that you do not, in fact, have a “gotcha!” concept.

    Here it is, nice and slow: You would prosecute women under existing homicide statutes, as applicable. If it was premeditated and deliberated, with no mitigating factors, you would prosecute murder 1 (up to life in prison). If it was heat of passion, you would prosecute for murder 2 (8 – 25 years).

    Once more: you would prosecute under existing statutes, depending on mens rea. There is no need to make additional laws just for abortion, as that ignores every criminal law precedent we have. The sentencing guidelines and statutes for murder depend on mens rea, not the method of execution nor the victim.

    but we start with a baseline typical punishment for a typical version of the crime.

    Not when it’s homicide, we don’t. This is BEYOND painful. You would do that for selling crack cocaine in various quantities, but homicide can get you anything from an acquittal (under various affirmative defences) to the death penalty. Do you think that the jury just picks a sentence out of a hat, or do you think that a prosecutor decides whether to prosecute for P&D or for manslaughter?

    It’s a b.s. question.

  245. Now, the second survey: The Center for the Advancement of Women — an organization run by a former president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America — commissioned a Princeton Survey Research Associates survey of American women. The Princeton survey likewise picked a random sample of 1000 women age 18 and above (this yields a margin of error of +/-3%), and it asked the following question, which I reproduce together with the results:

    Which ONE of the following four statements comes CLOSEST to your own view on abortion?

    A – Abortion should be generally available to those who want it; [30% picked this]

    B – Abortion should be available but under stricter limits than it is now; [17% picked this]

    C – Abortion should be against the law except in cases of rape, incest, and to save the woman’s life; [34% picked this] or

    D – Abortion should not be permitted at all [17% picked this]

    Did not give an opinion on abortion [2%]

    That’s right — 51% +/- 3% of American women apparently believe that abortion should either be entirely illegal, or legal only in cases of rape, incest, and to save the woman’s life.

    Taken from: http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/survey.htm

    I think that fairly well takes apart the notion that women are only pro-life when it comes to ideals rather than the law. Gallup polls show the same thing.

    You are probably thinking of the Roe v. Wade phenomena, where no one really knows what it stands for, so they all want it to remain the law of America; however, when asked separate questions about the substantive laws that it represents, they uniformly reject it.

  246. I do not want this to degenerate into a “You’re dumb!” “No, you’re dumb!” argument, which is where you are taking it.

    How about a “pot, meet kettle” argument, which is where you seem to be taking it.

    The “point” of the burning building scenario is to adduce from it that embryos really aren’t human and should not be valued as such.

    Whether that is the “point” or not, the answers most pro-lifers give to the question strongly suggest that they do not consider the embryos to be human. If the embryos are human and all random humans have the same value, then it should be a very, very easy decision: take the embryos. Save 100 people. It’s too bad about the one you couldn’t save, but you can only do what you can do. (See comment #234: is there anyone who, in the scenario given, would NOT save the 100 people?) The fact that it seems to be a difficult question for many pro-lifers suggests that they do not, in fact, value the embryos as highly as the toddler. I applaud this decision, since I agree that a toddler who is really alive, thinking, feeling, and self-aware has a much greater value than an embryo that is none of those things. Now I wish that the pro-lifers would extend that same belief in the value and humanity of the living person to living adult and adolescent women.

    I also notice some confusion here about PVS. People in PVS are not always completely without consciousness or ability to feel. Their brains are damaged to a greater or lesser extent and the damage may or may not be reversible. If the damage is both severe and irreversible, many times people in PVS are allowed to die, but that’s a different issue. Even the most severe PVS victim has some brain activity. A person who has no brain activity is brain dead. The ethically and legally correct thing to do with such a person is to remove them from life support and declare them dead. No brain no life. A person whose kidneys, liver, lungs, or even heart have been completely destroyed may still be alive. A person whose brain is destroyed is dead. So why should an entity with no brain whatsoever, as in a zygote, be considered to be a living human, muchless one with the unique right of parasitizing another human against her will?

  247. I used to be strongly pro-life. Hell, as a girl I was “conservative” in every sense of the word. Then I graduated from high school, went to college, got some learnin’, started seeing the world in a different way, discovered feminism, and BAM! Now I’m a baby-killing, man-hating feminazi*.
    I know quite a few pro-choice women who used to be pro-life.
    Pro-life teenage boys are the worst, IMO.

  248. I’m late to this party, but I would probably have to go with “the same punishment that existed in states that outlawed abortion before Roe” for the win.

    Which would be nothing.

    Really, Jill, I thought you were above such parlor tricks. Perhaps you appear in a tophat with a want and a white rabbit now?

  249. It is called “status quo ante.”

    Now my question: How many abortions in the lifetime of one woman are a reasonable manifestation of “choice?”

    Does the number ever become excessive?

    And when did you all stop beating your wives?

  250. Tony, you’re in worse shape if you concede that the punishment should be nothing. At that point, a fetus clearly has less value than its mother, and abortion should be legal. If killing a fetus isn’t murder, how is a fetus an equivalent human being to a viable human?

    You’d probably be better off taking Amanda’s suggestion, and giving that dumb skank of a mother “the death penalty. With a coat hanger hanging out her slutty cunt.” At least you’d be consistent.

  251. Now my question: How many abortions in the lifetime of one woman are a reasonable manifestation of “choice?”

    Well, that’s easy, as many as she wants, whenever she wants. What part of the word ‘choice’ are you have issues with here?

    Does the number ever become excessive?

    Sure, possibly, but how does this have any bearing on whether or not she should have access to abortion services?

    You may be running out of straw a tad.

  252. “Tony, you’re in worse shape if you concede that the punishment should be nothing. At that point, a fetus clearly has less value than its mother, and abortion should be legal. If killing a fetus isn’t murder, how is a fetus an equivalent human being to a viable human?

    You’d probably be better off taking Amanda’s suggestion, and giving that dumb skank of a mother “the death penalty. With a coat hanger hanging out her slutty cunt.” At least you’d be consistent.”

    Um, no. Neither Amanda nor you- are anywhere near as clever as you perceive. Conflating the legal meaning of murder with the ethical meaning of murder a convincing argument does not make. The government is actually in the business of regulating medicine, food and drugs – that is all we’re after.

    Suicide is morally considered murder, in some places it is illegal, but in most it is not, and in no wise is it charged as “murder” when committed.

    Try again. Try harder. Fail better.

  253. Hi Autumn. To address the general question just a bit more, I should also have mentioned that if inducing labor is not an option (I think one person mentioned the possibility of a heart attack if they go into labor), then the doctor may have to perform surgery, a C-section. Again, I must reiterate that I believe that one should do everything they can to save both lives. This means never directly and willfully killing. Bearing in mind that I believe that at the moment of conception a new unique human being with dignity and moral value is created, let me try and explain the ectopic pregnancy dilemma. First, I found a quote by Br. Paul Weberg which explains it better than I can:
    “One is never allowed to intentionally take the life of another innocent person … The principle of Double Effect works in the case of ectopic pregnanicies. The removal of the fallopian tube where the fetus has been implanted is the moral way of taking care of the mother, however, the fetus does die. In this act, the indirect dead of another (the fetus) is the secondary effect of the good/indifferent act of the removal of the infected fallopian tube… Methotrexate cannot be used because it directly kills the fetus. The fact that the child will not survive is not relevant to the action. This is consequentialism…The end does not justify the means. Where we go is just as important as how we get there.”
    If anyone is interested, the quote should be very easy to find on google. So that explains my position if it wasn’t clear before. To answer some of the objections, let me make an analogy. If anyone has seen the movie “Saw”, they remember that the idea of the movie was that a man kidnapped one or two people, and put them in situations where they had to (usually) do some sort of harm to the other person that was kidnapped in order to save their own life. For example, Wesley (yes, he’ll always be Wesley) was asked to somehow kill the person that was trapped in a room with him or else the kidnapper would murder Wesley’s family. So, hopefully this is a fair comparison, but i liken an ectopic pregnancy with a mother and 2 year old daughter being kidnapped by this man and chained in a room together. The mother is told thatin order to save her own life, she must shoot her daughter. If she refuses to shoot her daughter within the hour, the man will kill the daughter himself and cut off the mother’s leg.I think this is a similar situation. The mother didn’t ask for this. The child is a “wanted” child. The only difference is that the child can be see and is conscious, can do things for herself, etc. But like I pointed out before, thats personhood theory (which some of you may believe in) but I don’t. In the Saw scenario and ectopic pregnancy, either way, the child dies. And in both scenarios the mother can either walk away fine, or walk away mutilated. But hopefully I’ve pointed out the fundamental difference the way I see options. To summarize, I don’t think it’s terribly unreasonable to remove the fallopian tube in an ectopic pregnancy IF IF IF you believe that the embryo is a person. Of course I realize that the “personhood” of the embryo is the heart of where we disagree, but if the embryo is a person (with rights), it seems to me to follow logically that it can never be directly killed. God love you, Autumn (I can say that to you, right?).

  254. “Now my question: How many abortions in the lifetime of one woman are a reasonable manifestation of “choice?”

    Well, that’s easy, as many as she wants, whenever she wants. What part of the word ‘choice’ are you have issues with here?

    Does the number ever become excessive?

    Sure, possibly, but how does this have any bearing on whether or not she should have access to abortion services?

    You may be running out of straw a tad.”

    No, you pretty much just made my point – which is that your answer, while perfectly consistent with your beliefs will make you seem rather ridiculous and unreasonable in the political sphere outside of the feminist blogosphere – which was the point of Quindlen/Jill’s question. Most people recoil at your beliefs as to unlimited abortions, in much the same way that most people will recoil at the thought of executing women who have had abortions performed upon them. Most would recoil at both. It really doesn’t address the issue at the heart of the matter, and serves no productive purpose outside of pulp politics.

  255. If a person doesn’t recoil at one abortion, why would they recoil at 2, or 10, or unlimited abortions? If it’s not murder the first time, it’s not murder the 10th time. Or does abortion start off acceptable and grow “more murderous” the more a woman has? The general population needs to start using logic, apparently.

  256. Tony,

    Your side is arguing that abortion is morally/ethically the equivalent of murder and that it should be illegal. Now, in most cases, when a crime has occurred (and making abortion illegal means that getting an abortion is a crime) and there is a clear victim of that crime (the fetus) and a clear perpetrator of the crime (the woman), then the perpetrator gets punished. Either through jail time, a fine, or whatever. Now, since you guys are clearly arguing that abortion is the moral equivalent of murder (because the fetus is just as valuable a human life as the woman) and that, as such, it should be illegal, what other crime are we to suppose that the woman who has the abortion will be charged with? If she isn’t going to be charged with murder, or at least manslaughter, then what is it? Because if not murder, if instead some misdemeanor or even another felony, then you all need to find some other justification for making it illegal than just ‘abortion is morally/ethically equivalent to murder because the fetus is just as human and valuable as any born person.’

    And if abortion is to be legally characterized as equivalent to murder, then what is the punishment? To be consistent, it should be the same as any other murder, with mitigating circumstances taken into account by the jury. But that won’t happen because (1) it just isn’t practical (there are millions of abortions that occur each year) and (2) no one would stand for women actually being arrested/tried/convicted of murder just for terminating a pregnancy.

    So, if not murder, then what? And what would be the justification for making abortion a crime? Keeping in mind that, as a woman, I am just as capable of deciding issues concerning my body and my life as any man, and any decision I made to have an abortion would be a logical, rational, thought out, and premeditated one. Also, I should have exactly the same rights to medical determination and bodily integrity as any one else on the planet.

  257. Most people recoil at your beliefs as to unlimited abortions, in much the same way that most people will recoil at the thought of executing women who have had abortions performed upon them.

    You have evidence for this? Because honestly, there’s never ever been a restriction on the number of abortions a woman can have in any study I have seen. People don’t like women using abortions recklessly, but they never state anything about numbers.

    Oh, I see, this is like all the other anti-choice ‘facts’; it’s been pulled out of your arse.

    Not that it should matter, but people in this country overwhelmingly support access to abortion services. Equating that with a shock of imprisonment for women accessing such just shows how much your side is removed from reality.

  258. “If a person doesn’t recoil at one abortion, why would they recoil at 2, or 10, or unlimited abortions? If it’s not murder the first time, it’s not murder the 10th time. Or does abortion start off acceptable and grow “more murderous” the more a woman has? The general population needs to start using logic, apparently.”

    It is because there isn’t really support for abortion as a real right, but an accomodation – a “do over;” a “mulligan.” Unprincipled, yes – not as consistent as your ideology or mine – but it is the state of affairs as they lie.

    One early term abortion doesn’t weigh heavily enough on the scales to merit prohibition. But obviously the later and greater (in number) the abortion – well, you know – you don’t play golf with someone who takes mulligans on every bad swing. This is an uneasy balance, but it is what it is – I doubt that insulting the people as “illogical” (but seemingly reasonable) will get you very far. But it is the Marcotte types who will continue to attract flies with vinegar and make my effort a whole lot easier than it otherwise would be.

  259. Conflating the legal meaning of murder with the ethical meaning of murder a convincing argument does not make. The government is actually in the business of regulating medicine, food and drugs – that is all we’re after.

    Suicide is morally considered murder, in some places it is illegal, but in most it is not, and in no wise is it charged as “murder” when committed.
    Suicide is what now? Since when is suicide morally considered murder? Hell, it’s up for debate whether it’s ok to help someone commit suicide. I understand that if you think your body is the property of God, you would want not to destroy that property. Some people, on the other hand, think their body is their own property.

    Now my question: How many abortions in the lifetime of one woman are a reasonable manifestation of “choice?

    In answering your question, I think I can explain why you’re better off giving abortive mothers the LJ:
    She can have an abortion every time she ovulates if she wants. This might not be great for her health, but that’s up to her and her doctor. Her body is, after all, not your property. And don’t conflate this with a smoking or drugs discussion–abortions aren’t addictive.

    Now, the point that Jill’s question makes is that you’ve assigned the life of a fetus a legal value of zero. The law assigns the life of the mother a legal value of a lot, up to infinite–a death sentence. In fact, the law assigns–this is important!–the bodily integrity of a person (rape cases) a higher value than you were willing to give a fetus’s life indicates that if somebody really gets off on having a vacuum pump shoved in them, they can do that as much as they want.

    We liberals also occasionally like to interact with this framework known as reality, so I should mention that the likelihood that anyone would want even one abortion without a really good reason is very low. But by your own legal standard, she should be able to choose to have as many as she wants.

    No, you pretty much just made my point – which is that your answer, while perfectly consistent with your beliefs will make you seem rather ridiculous and unreasonable in the political sphere outside of the feminist blogosphere

    I recoil at the thought of an abortion every month. Abortions are gross. I also recoil at the thought of someone eating McDonalds every day for a month. That’s gross. Neither should be illegal.

  260. ” People don’t like women using abortions recklessly, but they never state anything about numbers.”

    Ha. Good show. I think you are minimally competent to see that “recklessly” equates rather easily to “never gets around to taking birth control, and gets pregnant a lot.”

    Please do not refer to my arse in future posts.

  261. Please do not refer to my arse in future posts.

    Yeah, c’mon, Sarah. Tony is very sensitive about bodily integrity.

  262. Good for you!

    Actually, snark aside, I was being courteous, so you wouldn’t embarrass all of us by loudly asking where all of the pro-choicers went. That’s been known to happen on these threads.

  263. I think you are minimally competent to see that “recklessly” equates rather easily to “never gets around to taking birth control, and gets pregnant a lot.”

    lol, you’re making an assumption about people’s thinking processes, one that’s not justified, and has no evidence for it. Par for the course mind you when dealing with the forced pregnancy anti-choice crowd, so I am hardly surprised.

    Please do not refer to my arse in future posts.

    I will when you stop using it as your source for your ‘research’.

  264. “I think you are minimally competent to see that “recklessly” equates rather easily to “never gets around to taking birth control, and gets pregnant a lot.”

    lol, you’re making an assumption about people’s thinking processes, one that’s not justified, and has no evidence for it. Par for the course mind you when dealing with the forced pregnancy anti-choice crowd, so I am hardly surprised.

    Please do not refer to my arse in future posts.

    I will when you stop using it as your source for your ‘research’.”

    I merely granted you the unwarranted assumption of being capable of “thought.” I will refrain from doing so in the future.

  265. ks,

    You fail to acknowledge that I (we) make the distinction between what is morally murder and the legal definition of murder. In Rome, a pater familias could murder for dishonor his child but not be charged as a criminal. We consider suicide murder, but do not generally demand that it be punished. And I am certain you and your cohorts consider all combat Marines to have Committed murder (unlawful killing without justification) but are not wholesale demanding that they be charged as murderers, preferring instead to focus your attention on General Officers and the Executive branch. See the distinction? Not all that difficult, was it?

  266. Awww, da poor widdle anti-choice nutter had his ittle wittle feelwings go boo-boo, and he’s now gonna go sulk.

    It took you this long to figure out that I’ve from the beginning not taken a word you’ve said seriously? Damn, you’re more slow than I thought.

  267. No, it’s not all that difficult. But then you have to come up with some other justification for making abortion illegal. Because, technically, none of those things you listed are illegal (or at least punishable), provided you can prove your justification (self defense, war, whatever).

  268. “No, it’s not all that difficult. But then you have to come up with some other justification for making abortion illegal. Because, technically, none of those things you listed are illegal (or at least punishable), provided you can prove your justification (self defense, war, whatever).”

    I already did. Abortion, as a medical procedure, and Medical Doctors, as a profession, are subject to regulation. If a Doctor unnecessarily removes your lungs and heart at your insistence, he will – despite your claims to bodily autonomy as a defense – be charged criminally. There is little effect in charging you, whether living or dead, and similarly there is little effect to charging the attempted suicide with murder.

    You see, I can claim to have “absolute bodily autonomy,” however the FDA has decided otherwise, and banned substances that I might like to consume (say, ephedra). Pretty simple, no? Unless, of course, you are for a wide-open libertarian (un)regulatory system?

    My state has determined that premises in certain conditions are uninhabitable in which to reside – when a premises is declared “uninhabitable,” the government enforces its law against the landlord and not the lessee. Also quite simple.

    I think that in many other contexts – i.e. consumer credit transactions – most of you rush to impute duress and adhesion whether there is any or not, and seek to regulate all such transactions on this basis. Perhaps the Pro-life movement is doing the same, where duress and adhesion is just as likely, if not moreso?

  269. Exactly, ks. If we’re not going to treat abortion as murder, then, um, why are we going to outlaw it? Simply because it pisses you off that some women get more than one? Or, as we all suspect anyway, is it your way of sticking it to the dirty sluts?

  270. “Exactly, ks. If we’re not going to treat abortion as murder, then, um, why are we going to outlaw it? Simply because it pisses you off that some women get more than one? Or, as we all suspect anyway, is it your way of sticking it to the dirty sluts?”

    Punish and prohibit are not necessarily identical concepts.

    “Sticking it to dirty sluts.”

    Well, yes I have done that, as well as clean sluts, nice girls, and the like. In the non-sexual sense, I’ll answer that your exsrcise of logic here is quite extraordinary.

  271. “Or, as we all suspect anyway, is it your way of sticking it to the dirty sluts?”

    Shorter Sarah:

    “When all else fails, I declare my interlocutor a perverted, frustrated misogynist and declare victory! I’m really, really logical Weeeee!”

  272. Sarah, do you really think what you write, or as we all suspect, you want women to remain maidens so that you can practice the Saphhic arts upon them?

    Turnabout. Having fun yet?

  273. Sarah, do you really think what you write, or as we all suspect, you want women to remain maidens so that you can practice the Saphhic arts upon them?

    Turnabout. Having fun yet?

  274. Well, Tony, when you go on and on without ever actually answering the question, we have to resort to something to entertain ourselves. You say aborting women shouldn’t be punished if/when abortion’s made illegal. So why’s it being made illegal, huh? What interest do we have in outlawing it?

  275. Talk about not thinking about the consequences of your actions. The consequences of the agenda of the so-called pro-life movement are dead women and girls from septic abortions, lack of cures for horrific, painful medical conditions, increased emotional suffering for women who need late-term abortions for their wanted pregnancies, and an increase in abortions in general.

    I’ll say it again – talk about not taking responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

    That is the most clear statement I have seen. I have sex, and I work to change policies. I take responsibility for both. Anti-freedom zealots work to kill woman and pretend it is the women that they would kill who are “irresponsible”.

  276. “Well, Tony, when you go on and on without ever actually answering the question, we have to resort to something to entertain ourselves. You say aborting women shouldn’t be punished if/when abortion’s made illegal. So why’s it being made illegal, huh? What interest do we have in outlawing it?”

    I gave my answer unequivocally in the other thread. Status quo ante. Punish women the same as they were punished in the several states which prohibited abortion before Roe, which is to say – do not punish the women. The original question is a silly one.

    We have the same interest that you have in opposing what you perceive to be an “illegal, immoral war” – viz, preserving and defending innocent life – without arresting all the soldiers and marines who wage the war, and do the actual, physical killing. That is, if you all are still feigning affection for soldiers and marines generally.

    Your pretending not to understand what has been laid out before you above does not constitute a deficiency in my argument.

  277. It does, though.

    People who oppose the war do not generally wish to see enlisting in the military outlawed. You do wish to see abortion outlawed.

    People who oppose the war believe the administration who made the decision to invade Iraq is the guilty party because IT made the immoral decision, and it’s using soldiers to carry out it’s cause.

    You appear to be comparing women who abort to soldiers. But, if you think abortion’s immoral, you should compare women who abort to the administration. Anti-war activist DO want to hold the administration accountable; apparently women who abort should not be, in your eyes.

    Your comparison is bunk.

  278. Tony, what we are asking is for your reasoning here.

    Pro-lifers say they want abortion to be illegal because “abortion is murder” and because “foetuses are babies”.

    If this is true then there is no logical reason why the murder of an unborn baby should carry no sentence, whilst the murder of a newborn baby should carry a sentence.

    ***

    If you think that there should be no penalty for abortion, then you cannot equate abortion with murder. You cannot equate a foetus with a born child if they have comparatively less value in death.

    If you are no longer equating abortion with murder, then you need to provide justification for making it illegal that does not equate a foetus with a born child.

    ***

    So.

    Having stated that you do not feel abortion should carry a sentence, why do you still feel that it is still a justifiable stance that abortion should be illegal?

    You get extra points for giving reasons why the life of this now not-equal-to-a-human foetus should have rights that trump the rights of its human mother.

  279. “It does, though.

    People who oppose the war do not generally wish to see enlisting in the military outlawed. You do wish to see abortion outlawed.

    People who oppose the war believe the administration who made the decision to invade Iraq is the guilty party because IT made the immoral decision, and it’s using soldiers to carry out it’s cause.”

    Um, no. The Anti-war movement does not oppose enlistment of commissioning (like me! Semper Fi!), they oppose the use of force, in this instance or generally, as immoral and illegal killing of innocent life. A military qua jobs program is just peachy.

    I think you are being disingenuous, because we all know that individual soldiers and marines make the decision to shoot under their RoE as autonomous moral agents. This is why many are wont, given their druthers, to call them “babykillers” when the political price to be paid is low. I’ll give you the benefit of not being so vile, and admit that you excuse what you (wrongfully) perceive as unlawful killing (murder) because you impute to soldiers and marines generally some degree of duress and overbearing of will under their circumstances. Yet, you do not advocate the arrests of all combat marines and soldiers. In this analogy, Tiller is Bush, and the women are marines. Fairly straightforward, Sarah.

  280. Hi Tony.

    “Still waiting for your lengthy piece of offal, because your shorter ones didn’t really have their intended effect.”

    I posted a long post in response to a question Autumn asked me this morning. I posted it at around 10:30 and it too is still awaiting moderation. They must be having some sort of problem with long posts or something, so just give it time.

  281. “Tony, what we are asking is for your reasoning here.

    Pro-lifers say they want abortion to be illegal because “abortion is murder” and because “foetuses are babies”.

    If this is true then there is no logical reason why the murder of an unborn baby should carry no sentence, whilst the murder of a newborn baby should carry a sentence.

    ***

    If you think that there should be no penalty for abortion, then you cannot equate abortion with murder. You cannot equate a foetus with a born child if they have comparatively less value in death.

    If you are no longer equating abortion with murder, then you need to provide justification for making it illegal that does not equate a foetus with a born child.

    ***

    So.

    Having stated that you do not feel abortion should carry a sentence, why do you still feel that it is still a justifiable stance that abortion should be illegal?

    You get extra points for giving reasons why the life of this now not-equal-to-a-human foetus should have rights that trump the rights of its human mother.”

    I undertand your inability to make traditional distinctions between moral concepts of murder, the legal meaning of murder, prohibition and punishment, and regulation as opposed from criminality. Please read all of my posts – the answer is provided, and you’ll probably learn quite a bit.

    And I’ll turn your last query back on you, and ask that you provide me with compelling ethical reasoning that we would share regarding why I must respect the rights of a woman inuring from some Natural Law concept of human dignity and absolute autonomy, and not respect and protect those of the foetus/baby.

  282. Since Tony refuses to state plainly his opinion:

    Abortion should be illegal because it’s morally murder, but it’s not legally murder so the moral murderers don’t deserve punishment.

    So the question becomes, why shouldn’t abortion be murder, legally?

  283. “It does, though.

    People who oppose the war do not generally wish to see enlisting in the military outlawed. You do wish to see abortion outlawed.

    People who oppose the war believe the administration who made the decision to invade Iraq is the guilty party because IT made the immoral decision, and it’s using soldiers to carry out it’s cause.”

    Um, no. The Anti-war movement does not oppose enlistment of commissioning (like me! Semper Fi!), they oppose the use of force, in this instance or generally, as immoral and illegal killing of innocent life. A military qua jobs program is just peachy.

    I think you are being disingenuous, because we all know that individual soldiers and marines make the decision to shoot under their RoE as autonomous moral agents. This is why many are wont, given their druthers, to call them “babykillers” when the political price to be paid is low. I’ll give you the benefit of not being so vile, and admit that you excuse what you (wrongfully) perceive as unlawful killing (murder) because you impute to soldiers and marines generally some degree of duress and overbearing of will under their circumstances. Yet, you do not advocate the arrests of all combat marines and soldiers.

  284. “Since Tony refuses to state plainly his opinion:

    Abortion should be illegal because it’s morally murder, but it’s not legally murder so the moral murderers don’t deserve punishment.

    So the question becomes, why shouldn’t abortion be murder, legally?”

    Well, I think I’ve stated it rather clearly, if much more eloquently above.

    Like suicide, which is morally but not legally murder, we have a degree of magnanimity towards and compassion for those (pregnant women, or in your case, marines) under duress and incapable of detached moral reasoning when the irrevocable decision is made. Like you, we hold the medical professional who has taken an oath to “do no harm”, as the president has taken an oath to “protect and defend,” to a higher legal standard, particularly in light of the fact that the doctor is decidedly not under any personal duress at the time of the procedure. Frankly, I do not care whether the foregoing contains feminist heresies for which you will fault me. Hopefully my statement in unequivocal enough for you.

  285. Tony…

    Because a foetus is not equal to a baby. Embryos, also, are not equal to babies.

    No human being has the right to live parasitically off of another.

    To turn around another person’s comment previously, namely, the one about people in a persistent vegetative state…

    If you had conjoined twins, and one of them was in a persistent vegetative state, would you insist that the still-sentient twin spend out their lives attached to their PVS twin if they didn’t want to? I would not. If they chose to, whatever implications that meant for their own lives, I would respect, if not understand, their position. But they should have the right to be detached from their now no longer sentient twin, even if that means their PVS twin will die

    And yes, I recognise that a foetus is not exactly the same as someone who is in a PVS. I am using an analogy.

    ***

    Now, I have scrolled along all the comments above and on the 137-comments-in thread and cannot find a single post by you that explains your reasoning.

    So please, either point me in he direction of the comment where you have provided the answers to my questions. Otherwise I would be grateful if you would post it again- since you know where it is, you could always just ctrl-c.

    And if you understand me so well, feel free to explain for me the difference between moral murder and legal murder.

    Again, I repeat my question for you.

    Having stated that you do not feel abortion should carry a sentence, why do you still feel that it is still a justifiable stance that abortion should be illegal?

  286. theobromophile, why will you not answer Jill’s original question? If you get to rewrite the laws, how much time would a woman who has an abortion serve? Your answer was that the question was “bullshit” because it’s up to the judge and the jury. I’m sorry, but this makes no sense at all. I can’t understand why a law student would need this spelled out, but when we make something a crime, we set ranges for what the normal punishments are for typical versions of the crime. We don’t just say that something’s a crime and then leave it up to the judge and jury to decide how upset they are by that crime. And yeah, any crime might have mitigating factors that reduce the sentence, or aggravating factors that bump it up; but we start with a baseline typical punishment for a typical version of the crime.

    Autumn,

    What is the sentencing range for murdering your mother? Wait – can’t tell me? So murdering your mother should not be illegal?

    Homicide is unique in criminal law. This is painful for me to explain – frankly, I’m wondering how Jill made it through two years of law school – but it’s not like selling crack cocaine. There is a little thing called INTENT which governs the punishment.

    Premediated and deliberated murder carries a stiffer penalty than manslaughter. Mental illness will result in no jail time, just rehabilitation. “Homicide” gets you anything from no jail time to the death penalty. That is your basic range.

    What you and Jill are asking pro-lifers to do is to have a homicide statute and a homicide-by-abortion statute. No where in homicide law do we distinguish based on victim (unless it is an assassination) nor upon method. I would get the death penalty for shooting the President, but no penalty for shooting an intruder in my home.

    The question is bullshit because it has no connection to modern homicide law. The only applicable answer is this: same sentence she would get under preëxisting state laws. That does not depend upon method or victim, but upon the perpetrator’s mental state.

    I am not psychic; I do not know, nor would I so legislate if I did know, the mental state of the 1.3 million women who slaughter their children every year.

    You have an answer. You don’t like it because:
    1) it’s utterly logical; and
    2) it eliminates your cheap “Gotcha!” that you and other pro-abortionists hoped to get.

    Jill:

    If, after two years of law school, you still do not understand that homicides are charged based on mens rea and not victim or method, I cannot help you. The very simple answer to your question is this: same way any other homicide is charged.

  287. Theo:

    “we value the needs and rights of each of the child and the mother.”

    I’m sorry to break it to you, but it is not a child until after the mother gives birth to it or it is viable enough to survive without her. Until then(no matter how hard you try otherwise, biology doesn’t lie) it is a fetus, a part of a woman’s body. As the Constitution allows all people a right to bodily integrity, no slavery and all that, the woman can do with that part of her body as she likes.

    You can hate it, disagree with it, until your hearts content, but you know what. Then don’t get an abortion. Make sure the women you have sex with wouldn’t get one(good luck with that, as its been proven, women’s ideas about abortion don’t really solidify until faced with an unexpected or unwanted pregnancy). Maintain your choices, and leave others to theirs.

    Why is this so hard, far a smart person like yourself, to understand?

  288. theobromophile:

    So, in that case, abortion would be treated the same as a premeditated, planned murder?

    Because abortion isn’t something you do “in the heat of the moment” It takes time, planning and weighing up of other options.

    And that very point there is why people who genuinely believe that “abortion is murder, so should be illegal” scare me.

  289. Tony, your reply does, in fact, contain feminist heresies: the assumption that women are not autonomous moral agents.

    I see that we finally got a straight-forward answer out of ya. Guess you must have been reluctant to state it before because you realize it’s incredibly infantalizing, choosing instead to change the topic to war in order to *hint* at what your issue might be.

    If women with unwanted pregnancies are under so much duress, and are so incapable of making rational decisions, why would you be so cruel as to call them murderers when they choose abortion?

  290. Just wanted to point out that at this moment, we have two pro-lifers taking part in the thread with two different answers to the question.

    Tony thinks women who abort are mental midgets, unaware of their actions, while Theo sees them as ruthless slaughterers.

    Talk amongst yourselves.

  291. “Tony, your reply does, in fact, contain feminist heresies: the assumption that women are not autonomous moral agents.

    I see that we finally got a straight-forward answer out of ya. Guess you must have been reluctant to state it before because you realize it’s incredibly infantalizing, choosing instead to change the topic to war in order to *hint* at what your issue might be.

    If women with unwanted pregnancies are under so much duress, and are so incapable of making rational decisions, why would you be so cruel as to call them murderers when they choose abortion?”

    No, actually I stated that women are autonomous moral agents via my analogy to marines and soldiers. I simply stated that duress exists, which is the reason for excusing criminality and punishment. You’re just being silly if you think that this is that wacky, since this is the way you view the entire military save General Officers.

    And when did I say that I go about surreptitiously calling women who have had abortions – assuming I knew who they were – “murderers!?” Or is just easier to pretend I’m an awful Luddite?

    And you know what? Despite what you think, “heretical to feminist dogma” does not equal “Unconstitutional” or “immoral.”

  292. What you and Jill are asking pro-lifers to do is to have a homicide statute and a homicide-by-abortion statute. No where in homicide law do we distinguish based on victim (unless it is an assassination) nor upon method. I would get the death penalty for shooting the President, but no penalty for shooting an intruder in my home.

    No, what Jill, Autumn, and the rest are asking pro-lifers to do is apply a homicide statute to giving fetuses person status. The question is, do you really believe that premeditated abortions are first-degree murders and should be prosecuted as such?

  293. And I’ll turn your last query back on you, and ask that you provide me with compelling ethical reasoning that we would share regarding why I must respect the rights of a woman inuring from some Natural Law concept of human dignity and absolute autonomy, and not respect and protect those of the foetus/baby.

    Let’s start with the utilitarian answer: a woman has consciousness and therefore ethically relevant happiness; a fetus doesn’t. Then we can go to the Roe court’s answer: a non-viable fetus doesn’t have autonomy. Most understandings of autonomy include the capacity to make choices. Again, we run into the consciousness problem–it’s tricky to make a choice if you aren’t cognisant of what’s going on around you. Finally, my answer is that the fetus is simply not human yet. I would argue that being able to live independent of the constant and complete support of a specific other person is a condition intrinsic to humanity.

  294. OMG! Look what I found! This talks about sentencing guidelines! It appears they actually exist! In fact, there is an entire federal commission charged with thinking them up!

    http://law.enotes.com/everyday-law-encyclopedia/sentencing-and-sentencing-guidelines

    And check out footnote 16 here :http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=337&invol=241#f16

    It would appear that “Robbery in the first degree is punishable by imprisonment for not ‘less than ten years’ nor ‘more than thirty years.’ (New York Penal Law, 2125).

    Burglary in the first degree is punishable by imprisonment from ten to thirty years, burglary in the second degree ‘for a term not exceeding fifteen years.’ (New York Penal Law, 407).

    So, again, if having an abortion is a crime of murder, what sentence should a person get. More than for a robbery? Less?

  295. bluefish a said:

    theobromophile,
    are you a man?
    ’cause *sigh* only a man could dismiss the ordeal of pregnancy and childbirth as simply an inconvenience.

    This is a very tardy reply, but no, theobromophile is a woman. She was over at my pad a while back arguing that the ONLY reason she could conceive of that a woman would not want to be pregnant is to avoid stretch marks. Seriously. I have to admit I’ve been enjoying seeing Jill and others batting her around like a ball of yarn. She’s got a helluva reading comprehension problem. Isn’t is so *cute* when law students think they’re so much smarter than everyone else (including people who are already, you know, lawyers) simply because they know phrases like mens rea? I’m sure it won’t surprise anyone in the least to learn that she’s a Randian libertarian too. (Yeah, wrap your head around that — a libertarian who fully supports government control of women’s medical decisions.)

  296. It is because there isn’t really support for abortion as a real right, but an accomodation – a “do over;” a “mulligan.”

    Every time someone has explained why they are pro-choice to me, the idea that it’s a “do-over” has never been part of the conversation.*

    Most people that I know that are pro-choice believe one of two things (or both)

    1) that a fetus isn’t a person (until, possibly, a set number of months) and abortion (possibly, only until that time) is only a surgical procedure involving a woman. Or, at the very least, that the determination of personhood before a certain number of months is a religious argument, and thus not something that the state should be legislating.

    – this is the argument most moderates I know present

    2) that if bodily inetrity allows people to refuse to donate bone marrow, blood and the like to people they are legally responsible for (no matter how their choices created the situation or not), then it also allows women to refuse to be incubators for potential children – no matter how their choices created the situation or not.

    – This is the one I find most feminists making, and while many people might find this refusal morally repugnant, most people find the idea of the state forcing them to do so even more repugnant, which is why it’s legal to refuse to do so.

    *The idea that the woman in question may not be completely responsible for her situation or doesn’t deserve a lifetime of punishment for a mistake is sometimes part of the reponse to anti-choicers who argue for personal responsibility. But it’s meant to refute the idea that women who have abortions are not acting responsibly, it isn’t the foundation for people being pro-choice.

  297. No, what Jill, Autumn, and the rest are asking pro-lifers to do is apply a homicide statute to giving fetuses person status. The question is, do you really believe that premeditated abortions are first-degree murders and should be prosecuted as such?

    Um, no clue. Do you think that matricide is a first degree murder and should be prosecuted as such?

    Until you can give me an answer as to that, I see no reason to give you an answer to the infanticide question, either. Not psychic; don’t know the mental state of 1.3 million women. Even if I did, I wouldn’t make a uniform law for homicide unless the mental states of all of those women were the same.

  298. No, it’s not all that difficult. But then you have to come up with some other justification for making abortion illegal. Because, technically, none of those things you listed are illegal (or at least punishable), provided you can prove your justification (self defense, war, whatever).

    KS: That’s not true. They are illegal, if the state can prove every element of the crime (including mental state) beyond a reasonable doubt.

    If you want an affirmative defence, the burden shifts. It’s then your job to prove that you did not have the requisite mental state. The State is under no obligation to demonstrate that it was NOT self-defence, or that you were sane, before prosecuting.

  299. I gave my answer unequivocally in the other thread. Status quo ante. Punish women the same as they were punished in the several states which prohibited abortion before Roe, which is to say – do not punish the women. The original question is a silly one.

    So, basically you’re saying to cut off the suppliers of the abortions, but not the consumers. And by making it illegal, very few doctors will perform the procedure, but you’re not going to stop very many abortions. What you will do is make it incredibly dangerous, thus insuring that hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of women will die, become gravely ill, and/or lose any hope of future fertility. All for your moral superiority.

  300. Aeryl,

    If it’s a part of her body, why does she want to abort? Last time I checked, if it’s your body (and not a separate body), you aren’t pregnant.

    Anyway, refer back to my Siamese twin example. Do we allow conjoined twins to slice off parts of the other? (If you are wondering what I’m picturing, google the Hensel twins – Abigail and Brittney, I believe.) Would we allow them to make decisions regarding “their” body that would kill the other? Would we allow one to hack off the head of the other?

    Bunny,

    True, BUT. It is illegal to kill someone in self-defence when not met with lethal force. If someone attacks you with non-deadly force, you can still kill them in cold blood, but you would not necessarily be charged with murder 1. We recognise that the bodily integrity issue makes it really hard to charge someone with murder 1, even though what they did is wrong.

    Thing is, if you work through the natural law and current criminal law with pregnancy, making the best analogies as you go, you’ll arrive at the conclusion that the women should receive a much lighter sentence than the physicians.

    ——

    A query for all pro-choicers: what do you think the punishment for assisted suicide should be?

  301. KS,

    So, basically you’re saying to cut off the suppliers of the abortions, but not the consumers.

    That’s how Sweden cut down its prostitution rate. It’s illegal there to solicit a prostitute, but not illegal to be one. Now, if prostitution is really wrong, why does Sweden do that, and not only get away with it, but become a model for other countries?

    Do you think that such a model treats prostitutes as victims? Do you think that it says that prostitutes have tiny girl brains? Or is it that such is the only way to get prostitutes out of the business (90% wanted out) and to cut down on child sex trafficking?

  302. theobromophile, I wonder if you are misunderstanding Jill’s original question. In fact, if I understand you correctly, you have just given a clear answer to Jill’s question. When you say

    What you and Jill are asking pro-lifers to do is to have a homicide statute and a homicide-by-abortion statute. No where in homicide law do we distinguish based on victim (unless it is an assassination) nor upon method.

    and

    The question is bullshit because it has no connection to modern homicide law. The only applicable answer is this: same sentence she would get under preëxisting state laws.

    it seems to me that you are actually answering Jill’s original question. She’s obviously not asking for a hard number, but what the standards and sentence ranges would look like under an anti-abortion statute. It seems to me that you are saying that we simply apply the homicide statutes we have now to a woman who has abortions. So just like with murderers now, a woman might get the death penalty for multiple intentional abortions, just as she would for multiple murders under the current law. A woman who miscarries but does not intentionally abort would not face murder charges, but might face manslaughter if the miscarriage was due to reckless endangerment. And etc,. . . So of course you cannot give a number, because those numbers would vary in precisely the same way as sentences for killings now. Is this in fact your position?

    If so, I apologize for assuming that your original answer was nonsensical B.S. intended to avoid answering the question, and for the resulting tone of my responses. This is in fact a very clear answer to Jill’s question. If I am reading you correctly, we just had a misunderstanding of assumptions. In my defense, perhaps you should not just assume that we all know that homicide-by-abortion would be punished with the normal homicide statute. Except for Nick, every American I know, pro-choice or pro-life, assumes that we would have separate statutes for homicide and abortion. If you look at the thread above, you will see that every pro-lifer except Nick explicitly or implicitly assumes this, and read Jill’s question in the same way that I did.

  303. Um, no clue. Do you think that matricide is a first degree murder and should be prosecuted as such?

    Until you can give me an answer as to that, I see no reason to give you an answer to the infanticide question, either. Not psychic; don’t know the mental state of 1.3 million women. Even if I did, I wouldn’t make a uniform law for homicide unless the mental states of all of those women were the same.

    I think pre-meditated matricide is first-degree murder and should be prosecuted as such. And that was the question I asked you–should premeditated abortion be prosecuted as first-degree murder?

    I think August has your position right, you’ve just been loathe to articulate it clearly because of the social ramifications imprisoning and executing tens of thousands of women would have. Is that correct?

  304. I think pre-meditated matricide is first-degree murder and should be prosecuted as such. And that was the question I asked you–should premeditated abortion be prosecuted as first-degree murder?

    Thing is, it’s not that cut and dry. Premeditated matricide is often not prosecuted as such; there can be an element of self-defence if the child is being abused, for example. If the mother in question is 90 years old and suffering, it would not be the same thing as killing your mother because she grounded you.

    Substitute “abortion” for matricide and you have my point.

    I think August has your position right, you’ve just been loathe to articulate it clearly because of the social ramifications imprisoning and executing tens of thousands of women would have. Is that correct?

    Yes and no, respectively.

    I do think that prosecutors would be reluctant to press murder 1 (which is what, in reality, would happen if you killed your grandmother on her request), and I think that juries (in death states, which is your assumption) would be reluctant to give the death penalty.

    I do think that the bodily integrity issue would play out for it to avoid being murder 1, in the same manner as if someone started punching you and you killed in retaliation.

    August,

    Yes. Pardon me if I did not understand what I believe to be a ridiculous assumption. Jill’s stated premise was predicated on treating abortion identically to other murders. She (and others) then start talking about a “separate” abortion law (although implied), with its own specific penalties, that is somehow removed from our current understanding of homicide law.

    I do not understand “Let’s treat it the same way, so we’ll make an entirely different statute.”

    We are not living in an era where our criminal law theory fails to consider the defendant’s motivations, intent, and perceived harm to his body or property. If we were living in such an era, I would fully understand why someone would immediately want a separate law (or assume that anyone would so advocate).

  305. “So, basically you’re saying to cut off the suppliers of the abortions, but not the consumers. And by making it illegal, very few doctors will perform the procedure, but you’re not going to stop very many abortions. What you will do is make it incredibly dangerous, thus insuring that hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of women will die, become gravely ill, and/or lose any hope of future fertility. All for your moral superiority.”

    I really can’t take that very seriously – I mean, you do know that after Roe is overturned, abortion will still be legal in all 50 states, right? And then there would only be incremental restrictions over time, and most states’ regimes of abortion laws would probably be much more similar to France’s than Saudi Arabia’s? People adjust their behavior to change, unless you believe that most women aren’t aware of the recently established connection between intercourse and pregnancy? It will track more like a gentle slope than a cliff.

    Are you also aware that single motherhood actually increased after 1973? I am apt to think that tightening of the risk calculus would yield lower rates of unwanted pregnancy across the board, mitigating your assertion that millions of women will perform pro se abortions. At this point, you will lose lots of support from young women who will never have undergone an abortion, which you and I know is the backbone of your movement.

    And you had better expect the Democratic party to become much more Pro-life in the next 30 years or so, ending the binary state of affairs extant since about 1992. My Mexican, Salvadoran and Guatemalan brothers had their asses whooped by nuns just like your dear Tony, and they know what’s good. Think tens of millions (20? 30? 40?) of thoroughly Roman Catholic Americans joining your party and changing it in some pretty predictable ways. If we can manage to stave off marriage mockery by homosexuals until then, you can forget about that forever as well. It’ll be a fiesta. Probably lots of Margaritas for you to enjoy.

  306. I’m sorry, but I just have to do this. Theobromophile has answered this question before, but back then she advocated that women who have abortions shouldn’t be punished at all:

    The woman does not perform the abortion: her doctor (or an abortionist) does that. It is not uncommon to punish the person who commits the act. Yes, we do punish conspiracies and solicitation of murder, but we are under NO obligation to punish everyone. […] You refuse to acknowledge that pro-lifers have set up a system by which they are compassionate towards the woman (by refusing to jail her), but have no mercy for the abortionist, who is not scared and pregnant. We assume, per se, that normal mens rea requirements were not fulfilled, or that the circumstances she is faced with excuse her conduct. We do not give the same deference to the abortionist.

    Guess she’s changed her tune. Now women should be punished under “our current understanding of homicide law.” Apparently she now realizes that her argument that abortion = murder is totally flawed if she doesn’t advocate that women who have abortions should be punished as murderers.

  307. Turning this around to the pro-choicers:

    If you believe that there are bodily integrity rights that the woman has, I presume you would believe that those rights would come into play in a murder trial.

    The abortionist lacks those rights; it’s not his body.

    Would you approve of a Congressional (state) statute that would provide that pregnancy is a per se mitigating factor (as it involves bodily integrity)? That, as the pregnant woman is protecting herself from non-lethal “force,” there is a mitigating element?

    Or would you prefer that every woman assert such each time and hope a jury believes it?

    Would you want a statute (if it does not exist in your state) that domestic violence is a per se mitigating factor that prevents a woman (or man, if he’s being abused) from being charged with murder 1? Right now, y’all think that abortion is excusable for these very reasons, so I would presume that you would not find fault with a pro-lifer who understands those reasons but does not find them to trump the rights of the fetus to its life. (Understanding and agreement are fundamentally different; I can follow the logical steps in a lot of things with which I disagree, but place different weights upon each expressed value and therefore do not concur with the conclusion.)

    Could you start to see how you would end up with a statute that charges the abortionist with a much higher level of homicide than a pregnant woman? Can you start to see how a statute which charges the abortionist with murder but gives the woman, say, counseling or probation, would just be a shortcut to the logical result of a just and fair trial? (The abortionist would have no defence, really; the woman would have that of a non-lethal* threat to her bodily integrity.)

    What I see happening here is that you all disapprove of the shortcut, but would not necessarily find each step to get to the same result to be logically inconsistent.

    *Only 3% of abortions are for health/life reasons.

  308. Raging Red: see my post immediately afore this one.

    Pardon my somewhat Socratic way of going about it. There has been no change of tune – just slowly working my way through the logical conclusions.

  309. “No, what Jill, Autumn, and the rest are asking pro-lifers to do is apply a homicide statute to giving fetuses person status. The question is, do you really believe that premeditated abortions are first-degree murders and should be prosecuted as such?”

    I think I’ve made the point that murder, in the moral sense, does not equal homicide or murder in the legal sense. i.e. suicide.

    Respond, don’t respond – but you have my answer : status quo ante. Simple. One easy step.

  310. Theobromophile, I’m not sure it’s Socratic, just a very tortured way of thinking. What’s so difficult about Jill’s question that you need numerous long comments to answer it? At first you just said the punishment should be “whatever a jury deems appropriate, after weighing all the factors.” Jill’s question, of course, is what would you deem appropriate? Now you’re going through a convoluted application of current murder law to justify your belief that women who have abortions shouldn’t be punished at all. What’s so hard about just stating that to begin with? You believe that abortion is murder/infanticide, but you don’t think women should be punished for it. There, it’s that simple.

  311. yeah, Bunny, buy him a drink. nothing better than getting drunk with a self-righteous anti-choice man.
    he can tell you exactly how to run your life! as if you needed him to. then he can say that he has as much right to your body as a fetus does or even more! sounds like an exquisite kind of hell.

  312. Raging Red:

    Because, if the question is about logical consistency, the actual result does not matter so much as the thought process.

    Your penultimate sentence does not really answer Jill’s question, which was (or so I thought): “How can you justify not punishing women if abortion is murder?”

    I’m not sure that women should not receive punishment under the criminal law. That does not necessarily equate to jail time. It could be counseling, probation, or community service: a manner by which we recognise that the action is morally and legally wrong, but, in some sense, not so far out of understanding of what people do that we want this person removed from society.

    Do you now want a mini-treatise on the reasons we incarcerate people? Last I checked, they run the gamut from punishment, removing the antisocial person from society, deterrence, and (in many cases) allowing the person (especially a young man) to grow up and calm down before being reintroduced into society. The latter reason is also why interracial marriage used to be punished by 25 years in jail: the couple would no longer be fertile when they are released.

    From a legal theory perspective, which of those apply to pregnant women? We, in this more enlightened age, do not really approve of incarcerating people so they don’t reproduce, so let’s remove that one from the list.

    What are we left with? Deterrence? Punishment? The former is the much stronger reason, IMHO, for incarcerating (or criminally prosecuting) women who abort.

  313. bluefish, you made me snort milk out my nose!

    Tony, now I’m afraid I’m really quite confused by one of your more recent posts…

    You mentioned single motherhood increasing, and also gay marriage? I take it you’re against both of those as well? Or are you saying “stop pushing for abortion or you’ll lose your chance to push for these”

    Sorry, but it’s gone midnight over here and I’ve been up since 5am so I’m getting blurry-brained.

    Ugh… okay I’ll just come back when I’m awake and reread your post again.

    And please don’t call me “gorgeous”. Seriously.

  314. What are we left with? Deterrence? Punishment? The former is the much stronger reason, IMHO, for incarcerating (or criminally prosecuting) women who abort.

    To finish my own thought: are there other, better way to deter abortion? Can we deter it without incarcerating women? Should our criminal law system work to provide the minimum necessary (however such is defined) punishment for the perpetrator?

    I think that Tony was trying to get at some of this. You cannot jump immediately from “morally wrong” to “worthy of incarceration for all parties involved.”

    We can start with “abortion = murder,” and, from there, prosecute under existing homicide statutes. We can then see that every single abortion case, by definition, will have a bodily integrity issue with it. We could provide that as a per se mitigating factor, or we could hope that juries figure it out on their own or prosecutors use it to bring lesser charges. We could, from this, extrapolate to the idea that the bodily integrity issue makes us squeamish about incarcerating women, but the murder issue makes us squeamish about letting her off, so we could mandate counseling. We could consider criminal law & the reasons behind it to determine that a pregnant woman isn’t the type of person who ought to be removed from society, but the abortionist is.

    We could put all of this together to either prosecute women under current laws (at which point she would probably get probation, as juries and prosecutors are human), or we could merely provide that the abortionist will be prosecuted but not the woman.

    While you may not agree with the value judgements that are used to arrive at that conclusion, it is neither irrational, illogical, nor inconsistent with considering abortion to be murder.

  315. So, basically you’re saying to cut off the suppliers of the abortions, but not the consumers.

    That’s how Sweden cut down its prostitution rate. It’s illegal there to solicit a prostitute, but not illegal to be one.

    huh? The prostitutes are the suppliers and the johns are the consumers. So that’s the opposite of cutting off the suppliers, but not the consumers.

    Which, considering the abysmal track record of shutting down prostitution in the US versus Sweden’s, would rather be our point. Making abortion illegal, but only prosecuting doctors is a stupid answer not just because it infantilizes women, but because it doesn’t work very well logistically.

  316. and how, pray tell, would we find the women who had illegal abortions to prosecute? many of them would end up either dead or in the emergency room due to complications from illegally obtained abortions. for the ones who survived complications, the state could prosecute them, but what about the ones who got away? what about the ones who were wealthy enough to travel overseas?
    would you have forensic vagina inspectors to examine and determine who had obtained an illegal abortion? or maybe their gynecologists could check for scarring and then report them to the policy every time a patient came in for a yearly pap smear.
    do you think this is a good and just way for women to live? would you feel diffrently if you were a woman?

  317. “Tony, now I’m afraid I’m really quite confused by one of your more recent posts…

    You mentioned single motherhood increasing, and also gay marriage? I take it you’re against both of those as well? Or are you saying “stop pushing for abortion or you’ll lose your chance to push for these”

    Sorry, but it’s gone midnight over here and I’ve been up since 5am so I’m getting blurry-brained.

    Ugh… okay I’ll just come back when I’m awake and reread your post again.”

    No, the homosexual “marriage” issue was ancillary to my discussion of American Demographic trends. You see, about 1/3 of the US is about to get a very strong Chilli-Catholic flavor. This will mean that the immigrants, who will more than likely break for the Democrats, will exercise much more power within the Democratic party than they now do, and will demand that the National party reflect their views across the board. Enter increasing numbers of Pro-Life Democrats, and Pro-Life Democratic Congressmen and state government officials. That is all.

    I don’t know whether single motherhood is increasing now, only that contrary to expectations, it did increase after 1973. Of course, abortions increased as well. One would gather that in the aggregate, the problem abortion purports to cure has been exacerbated. Quite simply, the risk calculus changed, and so did behavior – but, because in the realm of sex people are rarely purely rational actors, the outcome has skewed off the predicted course, namely “every child a wanted child raised by loving, capable parents.”

  318. Sorry, gang, I have a real humdinger in moderation that’ll change all your minds, except for the fella with the long greek name. Wait for it . . .

  319. do you think this is a good and just way for women to live? would you feel diffrently if you were a woman?

    I think the Fourth Amendment still applies. I also firmly believe that we cannot prosecute every single crime, but we can certainly do our best.

    As for overseas: It would be interesting to see the law that forbids such. If you go overseas and kill your husband, you won’t be subject to criminal prosecution here.

    Usually, when you prosecute murder, you don’t assume that any particular class of people could be murderers; you also generally wait around for a body to show up and then conduct an investigation to find a perpetrator. Good criminal law works by finding a perpetrator for a particular crime, instead of targeting a person and attempting to determine if they committed a particular crime.

    The criminal justice system would not do anything until it found a fetal body or some other evidence of crime (such as finding a back-alley abortionist); it then conducts an investigation and, if there is probable cause to believe that a certain individual committed the crime, it obtains a warrant.

    Basic answer: respect the Fourth Amendment. Require individualised suspicion of wrongdoing.

  320. do you think that the countries that have illegalized abortion like nicaruagua, ethiopia and brazil are the models we should follow regarding illegalizing abortions and prosecuting the women who obtain them illegally?

    all of those countries are most certainly pro-life, family-friendly utopias what with the mass poverty and abysmal infant mortality rates. i mean, right?

  321. “do you think that the countries that have illegalized abortion like nicaruagua, ethiopia and brazil are the models we should follow regarding illegalizing abortions and prosecuting the women who obtain them illegally?

    all of those countries are most certainly pro-life, family-friendly utopias what with the mass poverty and abysmal infant mortality rates. i mean, right?”

    Or . . . we could just appeal to the pre-73 United States as an example which controls for the pre-existing grinding poverty of your exemplar nations.

    P.S. Capitalization is your friend.

  322. “do you think that the countries that have illegalized abortion like nicaruagua, ethiopia and brazil are the models we should follow regarding illegalizing abortions and prosecuting the women who obtain them illegally?

    all of those countries are most certainly pro-life, family-friendly utopias what with the mass poverty and abysmal infant mortality rates. i mean, right?”

    Or . . . we could just appeal to the pre-73 United States as an example which controls for the pre-existing grinding poverty of your exemplar nations.

    P.S. Capitalization is your friend.

  323. Theobromophile,

    Wow. That’s quite a set of convoluted reasoning. And given your statements about how you had already answered the question, about how “painful” it was to have to explain the obvious details of something you had already answered, and your shock that Jill could make it through law school but not understand your position, I gather that we were supposed to deduce it all from your original statement that

    Any law student or lawyer should recognise it as a bullshit question. Judges and juries decide how much time to give someone. The real answer is: whatever a jury deems appropriate, after weighing all the factors.

    Damn, girl! Gotta say, I appreciate the confidence in my reasoning abilities, but next time I’d appreciate having a few more of the baby steps filled in. I somehow didn’t get that this meant pregnancy as a per se mitigating factor in an otherwise normal homicide investigation, typically resulting in zero time.

  324. Nick,

    I’m sorry to see that your long answer seems to have disappeared or suffered a quite lengthy delay. I was looking forward to seeing it. I’m having a dinner party this weekend, so I’ve got a ton of cleaning and cooking to do. So my apologies, as I might not manage to read and respond to your post in any sort of timely fashion, or even before the thread dies. I hope you feel you got something out of all this, even though you were the one answering the questions. God love you, Nick.

  325. thanks, TONY for telling me who my friends are! is there anything that pro-life men can’t school women of childbearing age on? you’re helpful.
    and what is your point? are you saying that our country will somehow miraculously return to the state it was in pre-roe? do you really think a that women as a whole will be on board with going back to the days of back alley abortions?
    or does it matter what women want or think?

  326. “thanks, TONY for telling me who my friends are! is there anything that pro-life men can’t school women of childbearing age on? you’re helpful.
    and what is your point? are you saying that our country will somehow miraculously return to the state it was in pre-roe? do you really think a that women as a whole will be on board with going back to the days of back alley abortions?
    or does it matter what women want or think?”

    Well, then, Capitalization wants nothing to do with you, and wants me to tell you that she thinks your poetry is stupid and you ass looks fat in jeans.

    Not by miracle, but by incremental change, my dear. Almost imperceptible at first, nibble here, nibble there, reasonable restriction upon reasonable restriction until the appetite for the procedure cannot support its cumbersome political weight or the expense of maintaining widespread access. Like I said, you can thank all those new Latin folks that we both welcome as future citizens.

    I also do not think “women as a whole” speak with any kind of univocal voice. That is one of feminism’s most glaring errors – there is no natural solidarity between peoples by virtue of having a uterus. Women get peeled off from your feminist ship when their self interests eclipse the burden of remaining strident and disagreeable. Abortion is no different.

    The way that I see things, from a political perspective, you have the choice between being wrong but reasonable, or wrong and unreasonable. You consistently choose the latter, as in the partial birth cases, at your own peril, because you lose credibility and political support.

  327. several questions,
    1. what is that whole poetry/ass-looking-fat thing at the beginning of your post?
    2. why are you so invested in chipping away at women’s reproductive freedom?
    4. what is this “feminist ship” and why is it mine?
    5. why are you so indirect and convoluted?
    6. why are you referring to me as “my dear”? please stop, it sounds patronizing.

    i think most of those questions are rhetorical with the exception on #2. why are you so invested in limiting womens’ choices regarding reproduction?
    i firmly believe that issues of abortion, pregnancy and childbirth should remain between the woman involved, her doctor and her included support network. the majority of women do not make these decisions regarding abortion or pba rashly. even if i don’t always agree, i trust women to make the right choices for themselves. that’s the feminist ship i sail on.

    in fact, i can come up with a motto for my feminist ship- “this strident and disagreeable feminist trusts all women to make decisions regarding their own health and well-being. otherwise, random and patronizing men on the internets will dictate to you what you can and can’t do with your body and that sucks for all women.”
    it needs a little work, but the main point is there.

  328. “i think most of those questions are rhetorical with the exception on #2. why are you so invested in limiting womens’ choices regarding reproduction?”

    I think that your ideology regarding absolute bodily autonomy and abortion is wholly without support in any developed ethical system, religion, or in our legal tradition. I find Roe an irredeemable and outrageous offense against the United States Constitution that screams out for remedy. I think that Roe and its fruits represent the threshold of a coarse, dystopian post-human society wholly without regard for real, innate human dignity and liberty.

    “i firmly believe that issues of abortion, pregnancy and childbirth should remain between the woman involved, her doctor and her included support network. the majority of women do not make these decisions regarding abortion or pba rashly. even if i don’t always agree, i trust women to make the right choices for themselves.”

    Says who? You’ve simply made an ethical claim without support – unless it is an appeal to some Natural Law concept of innate human dignity; if so, point me to your sources. From where does this alleged right to absolute bodily autonomy arise? Do you believe that it is important that we come to some resolution, some first principle upon which we both agree that compels my acknowledgement of your ethical claim? Or will you continue to make bald ethical claims without basis in some shared self evident principle to which we both ascribe? The truth is, all that you have are declarations of right and nebulous concepts of fairness, and nothing more.

    Lastly, why do you find it a thing necessary to state that women do not approach abortion or pba “rashly?” How do you know? Why should it matter if bodily autonomy always tips the scale of right and justice? If a woman wants to break the Guinness record for most lifetime partial birth abortions, why should either of us care, if we are without her sacred “included support network?”

    Would you concede that it is “rash” to abort a baby becuase you find out that you are pregnant after altering a wedding dress, and do not want to spend the additional money for a new dress and/or do not want to be wed while showing? (If you must know, I knew this woman personally.)

  329. Damn, girl! Gotta say, I appreciate the confidence in my reasoning abilities, but next time I’d appreciate having a few more of the baby steps filled in.

    Will do – my fault (for not filling in steps – I shall still presume you to be intelligent).

  330. PS. Not saying that pregnancy MUST be a per se mitigating factor; it just would not be unreasonable for it to be one, given that most juries and prosecutors would use it as such anyway.

  331. Ah, yes; let’s go back to the pre-Roe days, when women were tied down in marriages they’d rather not be in.
    Marriages from which they had no escape for financial reasons. Marriages in which they were abused. Things were so much better for women when they had no options.
    At least they weren’t single moms, though!

  332. I’m not surprised Tony the anti-choice man is calling us “dear,” insulting our appearance, and making creepy comments in general. It’s the anti-choice man M.O.

    And feminists don’t assume that all women have the same interests. In fact, we assume that women have different, varied interests, and that they should be free to pursue them, just like men are.

  333. “Ah, yes; let’s go back to the pre-Roe days, when women were tied down in marriages they’d rather not be in.
    Marriages from which they had no escape for financial reasons. Marriages in which they were abused. Things were so much better for women when they had no options.
    At least they weren’t single moms, though!”

    Oh gee, look! The feminist creation myth, straight from the book of Freidan 12:34-36!

    Hmmmm . . . Roe freed women from the bounds of marriage too? I was heretofore unaaware of this fact. Is there anything Roe can’t do?

    Having been raised by a single, career-oriented Mother, I now have even more motivation to upset Roe. Thanks, Sarah!

  334. Awwww poor Tony. His mother devoted some of her time to working, presumably just like his father would have, had he been around. But instead of directing his anger towards men who leave their children and the women they impregnate, he directs his anger towards women – those who abort and those who have the audacity to give birth even though they’re single.

  335. “I’m not surprised Tony the anti-choice man is calling us “dear,” insulting our appearance, and making creepy comments in general. It’s the anti-choice man M.O.

    And feminists don’t assume that all women have the same interests. In fact, we assume that women have different, varied interests, and that they should be free to pursue them, just like men are.”

    Sarah, come on now, this is just sad, and plays into that stereotype that feminists are all uptight and humorless Lesbian shrews. I knew that you would oversteer to a minor kink in the road, and you did. “Did you want to buy me a drink” really is super creepy, idnit? And “Capitalization” insulted someone’s appearance, after she disavowed a friendship with her.

    Your second paragraph, in truth, is total, unmitigated bullshit – and you know it. You impute patriarchal brainwashing to any woman who wears dresses and heels, likes men, and wants to out career on the back burner to have a family. You ridicule and deride the “clown car vaginas” exhibited by women who have more than two trophy children. You assert that every human with a uterus is or ought to be in solidarity with your political ideology and strange social views – this is what I referenced. You’re getting boring, Sarah.

  336. what is your motivation for upsetting roe in the first place, TONY?

    why are you so invested in limiting womens’ reproductive options?

  337. This has been in moderation since last night:

    “i think most of those questions are rhetorical with the exception on #2. why are you so invested in limiting womens’ choices regarding reproduction?”

    I think that your ideology regarding absolute bodily autonomy and abortion is wholly without support in any developed ethical system, religion, or in our legal tradition. I find Roe an irredeemable and outrageous offense against the United States Constitution that screams out for remedy. I think that Roe and its fruits represent the threshold of a coarse, dystopian post-human society wholly without regard for real, innate human dignity and liberty.

    “i firmly believe that issues of abortion, pregnancy and childbirth should remain between the woman involved, her doctor and her included support network. the majority of women do not make these decisions regarding abortion or pba rashly. even if i don’t always agree, i trust women to make the right choices for themselves.”

    Says who? You’ve simply made an ethical claim without support – unless it is an appeal to some Natural Law concept of innate human dignity; if so, point me to your sources. From where does this alleged right to absolute bodily autonomy arise? Do you believe that it is important that we come to some resolution, some first principle upon which we both agree that compels my acknowledgement of your ethical claim? Or will you continue to make bald ethical claims without basis in some shared self evident principle to which we both ascribe? The truth is, all that you have are declarations of right and nebulous concepts of fairness, and nothing more.

    Lastly, why do you find it a thing necessary to state that women do not approach abortion or pba “rashly?” How do you know? Why should it matter if bodily autonomy always tips the scale of right and justice? If a woman wants to break the Guinness record for most lifetime partial birth abortions, why should either of us care, if we are without her sacred “included support network?”

    Would you concede that it is “rash” to abort a baby becuase you find out that you are pregnant after altering a wedding dress, and do not want to spend the additional money for a new dress and/or do not want to be wed while showing? (If you must know, I knew this woman personally.)

  338. Jill- I posted a lengthy reply to a question Autumn asked yesterday at about 10:30 and it still is awaiting moderation. Should I try reposting it? Or just wait it out? Thanks.

    Autumn- Have fun at you dinner party! God love you.

  339. “what is your motivation for upsetting roe in the first place, TONY?

    why are you so invested in limiting womens’ reproductive options?”

    All my comments are belong to moderation.

  340. i don’t need to or have any interest in reading a dissertation.
    it’s a simple question that a person should be able to answer succinctly.

    why shouldn’t a woman have as many options as possible when she is faced with a unplanned pregnancy?

    let me ask you this, how many pregnancy complications have you personally suffered through, *my dear*?

    right. you’re a man, you will never face a pregnancy that goes horribly awry and forces you to consider your own mortality in the process.
    you’re the equivalent of a dillettante and a chickenhawk. imho, all pro-life men are.

  341. “i don’t need to or have any interest in reading a dissertation.
    it’s a simple question that a person should be able to answer succinctly.

    why shouldn’t a woman have as many options as possible when she is faced with a unplanned pregnancy?

    let me ask you this, how many pregnancy complications have you personally suffered through, *my dear*?

    right. you’re a man, you will never face a pregnancy that goes horribly awry and forces you to consider your own mortality in the process.
    you’re the equivalent of a dillettante and a chickenhawk. imho, all pro-life men are.”

    Its really not a dissertation, but it requires more than a “simple” mind to appreciate it, so you may be out of luck.

    Question, bluefish – is there some emotional classical string movements playing in the background when you write of the horrible woman-killing pre-born babies? I like Samuel Barber’s Adagio for those times when I want to vest something ordinary with a pensive, serious mood.

    Haha – Captain Tony Chickenhawk, U.S.M.C. Ret. Reporting for duty, Ma’am.

  342. i may be simple, but at least i didn’t throw together dr. seuss nonsense like “pre-born babies.”
    what does that mean? do you mean an embryo, bastocyst or fetus?

  343. Autumn- My reply is posted, #280. And yes, I’ve gotten a lot out of the discussion and will hopefully be involved in other posts as well.

  344. You impute patriarchal brainwashing to any woman who wears dresses and heels, likes men, and wants to out career on the back burner to have a family. You ridicule and deride the “clown car vaginas” exhibited by women who have more than two trophy children. You assert that every human with a uterus is or ought to be in solidarity with your political ideology and strange social views

    As you might learn by actually LISTENING to feminists (like the ones on this blog or over at Feministing), that is utterly and completely untrue. HELLO, most of us DO wear dresses and heels. We’re not immune from pressure to conform to stereotypical gender norms. You can’t identify a feminist by looking at her. Shocker, I know. Have you seen a photo of Jill or Jessica Valenti? They both wear make-up and dress like typical women. [Sorry ladies, if it’s inappropriate to bring you up in this fashion] Some feminists even, GASP!, enjoy fashion! But unlike anti-feminists, we recognize and resent the fact that women are expected to be “feminine” all the time. That we’re expected to be “sexy” as it’s defined by the patriarchy.

    Your suggestion that feminists are all lesbians is laughable. Riiiight, none of us like men. None of us have boyfriends, lovers or husbands. And none of us happen to BE men. Are you serious?

    And, contrary to your claim about careers vs. family, feminists advocate for women’s opportunity to do WHAT SHE WANTS. Men don’t HAVE to choose between career and family; why should women? Men are just expected to have both; women are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. And you’ll find that it’s feminists, not anti-feminists, who advocate for more family-friendly policies, more parent-friendly policies and more child-friendly policies. Supporting SAHMs and supporting women who work outside the home are not mutually exclusive.

    Finally, many many feminists were offended by the whole “clown car vagina” thing. See, we don’t think it’s appropriate to tell a woman what she’s allowed to do with her vagina. You do.
    It wasn’t FEMINISTS mocking Michelle Duggar (I assume that’s who you’re talking about), it was neandrethals who jump on each and every opportunity to shame women, period.

  345. It’s sooo weird that pro-lifers ALL personally know a woman or two who aborted in their 7th or 8th month of pregnancy in order to fit into a dress.

    NEWSFLASH: A doctor won’t perform an abortion at that stage unless the woman’s about to die. Your lies do not fly around here.

  346. “horrible woman-killing, pre-born babies.” wow.
    listen to yourself, kid.

    when i write pregnancy complications do you read “horrible, woman-killling pre-born babies”?

    i think you’re trying to use hyberbole as an attempt to be witty, but i’m finding it…ineffective.

  347. “i may be simple, but at least i didn’t throw together dr. seuss nonsense like “pre-born babies.”
    what does that mean? do you mean an embryo, bastocyst or fetus?”

    I mean, in the first, a fully formed human being who happens to be hanging out on the North side of a cervix, but the others count as well.

    Living? check.

    Human DNA? check.

    DNA distinguishable from mother? check.

  348. a glimpse inside the mind of a pro-life man:

    i write “pregnancy complications” and he reads “horrible, woman-killing pre-born babies.”

    just wow.

  349. bluefish a,
    From now on I will refer to living humans as “pre-dead.”

    and guess what? if you’re a female of child-bearing age, you’re also pre-pregnant.

    so you’re pre-pregnant, pre-dead and if you skip a period you might be carrying a pre-born baby.

  350. Tony says:
    “I mean, in the first, a fully formed human being who happens to be hanging out on the North side of a cervix, but the others count as well.”

    is that kinda like how athena was all hanging out all fully-formed on zeus’s forehead?

  351. Tony, are you stupid enough to believe we blame fetuses for their hosts’ complications during pregnancy? Fetuses are not moral agents; they don’t decide to fuck up their hosts’ bodies or possibly kill them. If you think we do… I don’t know what to tell ya. But I will tell you that yes, there are A LOT of complications that arise during pregnancy. Denying and/or minimizing that is really piggish.

  352. Sarah, you’re so full of shit I could sell you at Oktoberfest as a shitwurst.

    Marcotte is an antifeminist neanderthal. You post over there a good bit, right? You must be keeping tabs on her. Good to know.

    And I never said what month the woman was in, she aborted before she was close to showing, so 8 or 9 was probably out.

    “And, contrary to your claim about careers vs. family, feminists advocate for women’s opportunity to do WHAT SHE WANTS.”

    Also good to know. Shorter Sarah: Feminism is a belated teenaged rant.

    Actually, men are never excused from having careers. Fair or no, work defines a man and his worth as a human being. This is simply not the case for women, and you know it – you push all options, at all times, for any or no reason. This, my dear, is the behavior of a petulant child not worthy of being taken seriously. And this is why 99% of men will just tune you out when you go on and on with feminist wordplay, but they don’t buy it either. I’m just honest enough to tell you the truth.

  353. “Tony, are you stupid enough to believe we blame fetuses for their hosts’ complications during pregnancy? Fetuses are not moral agents; they don’t decide to fuck up their hosts’ bodies or possibly kill them. If you think we do… I don’t know what to tell ya. But I will tell you that yes, there are A LOT of complications that arise during pregnancy. Denying and/or minimizing that is really piggish.”

    My other comment is in moderation purgatory, but yes, I do believe that you vest pre-born babies as evil totems. It is silly, but true – hence the affinity for the Alien movies as metaphors for patriachal coerced pregnancy.

  354. “bluefish a,
    From now on I will refer to living humans as “pre-dead.”

    and guess what? if you’re a female of child-bearing age, you’re also pre-pregnant.

    so you’re pre-pregnant, pre-dead and if you skip a period you might be carrying a pre-born baby.”

    Why not? We’re all pre-cancerous. I pre-boarded once, and you both seem to me to be pre-intelligent.

  355. Ugh. I have never heard about comparing the Alien movies to patriarchal forced pregnancy. Could ya stop assuming you know us and what we think? Yes, we believe anti-choice policies are evil, but obviously the blame rests with those who SUPPORT the policies, not the fetus itself.

  356. “a glimpse inside the mind of a pro-life man:

    i write “pregnancy complications” and he reads “horrible, woman-killing pre-born babies.”

    just wow.”

    You know, I do read what you people write when I am not contributing, so you can dispense with the pretense that you all have supreme affection for the fetus and baby. See the Alien post, above, and “precious fefees,” and other derogatory language.

    The concept of “the record” escapes some people, huh?

  357. Tony says:
    “The real asnwer is – do nothing extraordinary, and the natural course of events will yield a born baby.”

    you’re absolutely right, TONY. genetic birth defects do not exist and were made up by feminists. so we could abort our babies.

  358. So you are blaming us for something said by someone else re: the Alien movie? Ohhhkay.

    When we say things like “precious feefees” we’re making fun of you.

  359. “Ugh. I have never heard about comparing the Alien movies to patriarchal forced pregnancy. Could ya stop assuming you know us and what we think? Yes, we believe anti-choice policies are evil, but obviously the blame rests with those who SUPPORT the policies, not the fetus itself.”

    Marcotte claims that this is part of the Feminist cultural experience – you know, Rosemary’s baby, Alien, etc. etc. I don’t think she was clever enough to think that up herself, though it wouldn’t surpirse me if she and Mr. X had a baby . . .

    And where the hell do you get off slinging concepts of “evil” around? First off, I feel othered by that statement. Secondly, you probably don’t believe in real, actual evil, so it means nothing to you.

  360. “you’re absolutely right, TONY. genetic birth defects do not exist and were made up by feminists. so we could abort our babies.”

    No, it is the excuse for you to abort all the perfectly healthy babies that are inconvenient. Not too clever, actually.

  361. Wait, are you seriously claiming to feel othered by me or are you mocking me (or feminists, or women, or whomever)? Because if you are serious, this moment should be recorded in the dictionary under “irony.”

    My comment regarding evil was in response to this: “I do believe that you vest pre-born babies as evil totems.”

    In essense, no.

  362. i’ll tell you what i believe in! pregnancy complications, because they do exist and when they happen it can be an evil burden on the mother.
    saying that pregnancy complications don’t exist or are the mother fault because she did something wrong is, in my book, evil.

  363. “So you are blaming us for something said by someone else re: the Alien movie? Ohhhkay.

    When we say things like “precious feefees” we’re making fun of you.”

    Like I’m supposed to not impute to you all of the silly nonsense Feminism engenders? Precious “feefees” may be intended as an insult to me, but speaks more to your view of pre-born life as decidedly not precious – see how that works?

  364. Tony says:

    “I do believe that you vest pre-born babies as evil totems.”

    that’s some scary, superstitious shit right there.

  365. Tony says:

    “I do believe that you vest pre-born babies as evil totems.”

    that’s some scary, superstitious shit right there.
    and wrong to the core. you really have no idea how or what women think, do you?

  366. “Wait, are you seriously claiming to feel othered by me or are you mocking me (or feminists, or women, or whomever)? Because if you are serious, this moment should be recorded in the dictionary under “irony.”

    My comment regarding evil was in response to this: “I do believe that you vest pre-born babies as evil totems.”

    In essense, no.”

    RE: “othering.” I am mocking you, because it is quite possibly the stupidest grievance I have encountered. But technically, I was othered in this thread, and I demand satisfaction. Pistols or swords?

    Well, we’ll agree to disagree on the evil totem feefees, who are definitely not precious, but whom you agonize over aborting.

  367. “I do believe that you vest pre-born babies as evil totems.”

    that’s some scary, superstitious shit right there.
    and wrong to the core. you really have no idea how or what women think, do you?”

    I agree, that’s why I criticize you for holding that view. Come on now, I told you I read you people sometimes without posting.

    pandagon is the best for observing the feminist Id in full.

  368. Well, Tony, you and people like you DO “other” women. Men are the default human beings, women just after-thoughts, created for your use of course.

    Aaaanyway, I don’t view fetuses as objectively precious. Never claimed to. Maybe the wanted ones are precious to the mothers gestating them, but objectively, no.

  369. bluefish a, of course he knows what we think. He knows what feminists are like, anyway.
    He knows we all refuses to wear dresses like we’re supposed to. He knows we shun high heels and hate shopping for anything other than abortion doctors. He knows we dislike men and are never sexually attracted to them – which confuses me, because I thought feminists were all filthy sluts who couldn’t stay out of bed with myriad men. Guess there’s two types of feminists.
    He knows none of us are SAHMs, which will be news to the many SAHMs who enthusiastically contribute to this blog.

  370. you’d criticize me either way.
    before taking you to task in this argument, i didn’t realize that you’d write about evil totems, pre-born babies and other such weird nonsense.
    i thought you had a rational, logical reality-based basis for wanting to limit reproductive options. i guess there is no such thing.

    >excuse me while i get a little meta

  371. Fair or no, work defines a man and his worth as a human being. This is simply not the case for women, and you know it

    Work shouldn’t define men or women. If you have a complaint re: the strict standards men are held to, you’re directing your ire at the wrong party. Say it with me: Patriarchy hurts men too!

    And the insults are just flying today aren’t they? Only petulant children believe women (and all people) should have self-determination? That is what I meant by “…what she wants,” and you know it. You are deliberately twisting my words and perverting their meaning.

    And you’re right, most men don’t embrace the notion that women are people. Sad.

  372. “bluefish a, of course he knows what we think. He knows what feminists are like, anyway.
    He knows we all refuses to wear dresses like we’re supposed to. He knows we shun high heels and hate shopping for anything other than abortion doctors. He knows we dislike men and are never sexually attracted to them – which confuses me, because I thought feminists were all filthy sluts who couldn’t stay out of bed with myriad men. Guess there’s two types of feminists.
    He knows none of us are SAHMs, which will be news to the many SAHMs who enthusiastically contribute to this blog.”

    Um, no – I listen, observe, and repeat without adulteration, and you object because accountability and consistence is not one of feminism’s strong suits.

  373. RE: SAHMS

    To be clear – if a woman wants, at any time, to be a SAHM, that is a perfectly legitimate, feminist election, correct?

    But, if I want/expect my wife to be a SAHM, or I would only date women who want to be SAHMs, I am a patriarchal misogynist asshole? Correct?

  374. a woman would have her own reasons for wanting to be a SAHM, but why would you want or expect that of your spouse/girlfriend?

    the reasons why you would expect or want her to be a SAHM might be misogynist or patriarchial.

  375. I should have known a simpleton like yourself would distort reality like this. There’s no room for complexity in your world, is there?
    You are just confused, dear, because feminists discuss and examine the role(s) the patriarchy expects women to play in society. From the moment they’re born, children are conditioned to conform to very narrow gender roles. If they rebel or flat-out think it’s bunk, authoritarians like yourself go ape-shit and malign them. Girls don’t “naturally” like the color pink. In fact, pink used to be “for boys” while blue was “for girls.” Can’t buy baby clothes these days that don’t loudly announce the sex of the wearer.
    But even feminists are members of society, and it’s difficult to give up the rewards one reaps from acting “feminine.”
    Anyway, I don’t know why I’m even trying to engage you here, since you’ve made it quite clear that you don’t think women deserve social, political or economic equality. Why you hang around these parts remains a mystery.

  376. “Fair or no, work defines a man and his worth as a human being. This is simply not the case for women, and you know it

    Work shouldn’t define men or women. If you have a complaint re: the strict standards men are held to, you’re directing your ire at the wrong party. Say it with me: Patriarchy hurts men too!

    And the insults are just flying today aren’t they? Only petulant children believe women (and all people) should have self-determination? That is what I meant by “…what she wants,” and you know it. You are deliberately twisting my words and perverting their meaning.

    And you’re right, most men don’t embrace the notion that women are people. Sad.”

    Its really not “patriarchy” the existence of which you have no evidence – its necessity born of the inherent difficulties of life. I guess if patriarchy stopped hating men, the world would be wonderful, however without roads and buildings and planes and cars and such.

    No, my dear, work defines a man because it constitutes his status in the eyes of women. Impossible, Matriarchal standards, if you will. And to excel, men do all manner of difficult things, and die significantly shorter than all the oppressed, disadvantaged women. Unless, that is, length of life isn’t a reliable measure of who gets the nicer ride through life.

  377. What I am saying, RE: petulance, is that you really don’t put much focus on women fulfilling obligations and duties, and binding themselves to do what they undertake to do. For example, if a woman at twenty-one sets out to be a high-powered attorney, and gets all the adulation, along with the crushing debt, but at 26 takes a 180 and decides to be a SAHM, you see nothing mercurial or immature in this. Likewise, if a married women with minor children ceases to feel “fulfilled” and unilaterally divorces her husband and thereby economically advantages her children, it is a perfectly legitimate feminist election. Neither option is afforded men, but you see no immaturity in this; the hallmark of maturity is making correct decisions given the available, morally acceptable options, instead of demanding the right to be mercurial and fulfilled.

  378. “a woman would have her own reasons for wanting to be a SAHM, but why would you want or expect that of your spouse/girlfriend?

    the reasons why you would expect or want her to be a SAHM might be misogynist or patriarchial.”

    I’m taking this one yard.

    Presumably, the SAHM loves her children, and believes that she is their best early educator and caretaker, inculcating her values and helping to cultivate her child’s talents.

    Why would you presume that I would want anything less than this my children, whom I would love? Why is loving my children in the exact same manner a misogynist crime?

    You really don’t see why people think you are petulant, and contrary to family life?

  379. Your definition of “family life” is pretty narrow, dontchathink?

    Why do you assume that the child’s mother is always going to be it’s best caretaker? Do you have that little faith in yourself as a father? Do you presume that women shouldn’t have career interests or hobbies like you do?

  380. “I should have known a simpleton like yourself would distort reality like this. There’s no room for complexity in your world, is there?”

    Ironic in that it is in the “Pro-Lifers either punish women for murder or become Pro-abortion, there is no third way” thread, no?

    “Anyway, I don’t know why I’m even trying to engage you here, since you’ve made it quite clear that you don’t think women deserve social, political or economic equality. Why you hang around these parts remains a mystery.”

    Because you can’t win, and it frustrates you.

    Oh heavens, the oppression of pink baby clothes. Your beliefs are frivolous.

  381. Tony says:
    “You really don’t see why people think you are petulant, and contrary to family life?”

    hi TONY, defensive much?
    on the other side of your comment, once a child is weaned, a working mom can instill a sense of independence, self-reliance and a sense of work ethic into a child.
    besides, can’t dads be stay at home parents, as well?

    see, all you need to do is see both sides of the question and argue it in a fair and rational way. there doesn’t have to be any personal insults or talk of evil totems.

  382. “Your definition of “family life” is pretty narrow, dontchathink?

    Why do you assume that the child’s mother is always going to be it’s best caretaker? Do you have that little faith in yourself as a father? Do you presume that women shouldn’t have career interests or hobbies like you do?”

    1. No.

    2. Because she has the most invested in his or her well-being and success, along with the child’s father.

    3. Contrary to your myth, women are the nurturing sex – this holds across cultures and species. The chances of a man “mating up” with no career, no earning ability, and a desire to stay home are nil. Damned Matriarchy!

    4. Yes, but I presume that nobody, in any circumstance, can ever “have it all.” That is the crux of the matter, and since the vast majority of women aspire to be mothers, I think putting exorbitant effort into channeling them through career paths is foolhardy and wasteful and undermines family life.

  383. Ye Gods, Tony, what happened to the politeness?
    Okay,

    If you really HAD been reading people’s comments clearly, you would have read comments from women who cannot have children safely due to health complications, women who already have children they love, you would have seen posts on here by women proudly showing us their beautiful children. You would have read comments from people who dearly want children, but just not yet because they can’t possibly manage it. Then there are women who have chosen not to have children, not necessarily out of any hatred or fear of children and foetuses, but due to deep personal reasons that wouldn’t normally be discussed on a public thread.

    But things can, and do, go wrong without the women doing anything to make it happen. My partner was born with a massively life-threatening deformity which resulted in him spending most of his childhood in hospital having surgery, being on nil-by-mouth, and could have resulted in him spending his adult life genderless if his parents hadn’t gotten a second opinion. He had worked out the exact circumstances under which he would commit suicide by he time he was 7.

    A close family friend has 2 living children. Her other 2 daughters each died before they passed the age of 5 due to the same medical condition; they spent their brief lives with tubes sticking out of them, unable to go to preschool, never getting the opportunity to learn how to do so many things babies are supposed to do. Since then she resolved to have abortions until her doctor was able to fit her in for sterilisation. Too much pain.

    Every woman in my family, who has had children, has had more miscarriages than live births due to a weird tendency that we all seem to have.

    Ectopic pregancies occur. They occur at random.

    Foetus’ die in The womb through no fault of their parents, sometimes.

    Things go wrong, and when they go wrong people should have the right to an abortion.

    So saying that “I do believe that you vest pre-born babies as evil totems.” and “The real answer is – do nothing extraordinary, and the natural course of events will yield a born baby.” you are either being willfully ignorant and insulting or you must have lived under a very large rock, with only a very few, very fortunate women who have either never been pregnant or miraculously never had a single complication.

    Either way, I now no longer believe that you have anything useful to contribute. You have resorted to personal attacks, and have behaved disgustingly.

  384. Bunny,

    Now you’ve confused me – is the justification for abortion possible deleterious health effects of pregnancy, or absolute bodily autonomy no matter the reason or no reason at all?

    As to the lack of politeness, I was othered – horribly, horribly othered, and I struck out from the pain. Hopefully we (you and I) can continue politely.

  385. I can’t win if I’m talking to someone who considers women the second sex, that’s for sure.

    Your definition of family life IS narrow. To you, it’s father who works full-time, mother who stays at home, and biological children. Your must think feminists don’t have, or come from, families. It’s weird.

    And this is telling: “The chances of a man “mating up” with no career, no earning ability, and a desire to stay home are nil.”

    It shows that you believe women are inherently “below” men, and that men who “act like women” are inferior (because women are inferior). How you can say things like this while not considering yourself a misogynist is baffling.

    And just because *most* women want to have children doesn’t mean *most* women want to sacrifice their earning power, hobbies and career aspirations. You think it’s wasteful for women (even those who don’t want children?) to have careers because you don’t think women are good for anything more than childbearing and fucking!

    What are women supposed to do in 2007 anyway? Most people don’t marry straight out of high school. How are women supposed to survive unless they work? Live under mom & dad’s roof until they find a suitable man to marry her off to? And what do you consider a SAHM anyway? A woman who stays at home until her children are school-aged? A woman who stays at home even after her children enter school, so she can… I don’t know, make sure the house is sufficiently clean for you and that your dinner’s on the table when you arrive home? If this is what you mean when you say you’ll only marry someone who’ll be a SAHM, then yes, you’re a misogynist asshole. You don’t deserve a slave anymore than I do (and I don’t).

  386. “Your definition of family life IS narrow. To you, it’s father who works full-time, mother who stays at home, and biological children. Your must think feminists don’t have, or come from, families. It’s weird.”

    My mother was an entrepreneur with a business that (in the 80s) grossed about 3 million yearly. She divorced my father, whom I did not see after, dumped me and my brother with my grandmother, and “had it all.” Then she threw it away to chase a man. But she did WHAT SHE WANT[ED]. (quoting you from above).

    Thank you feminism, for a wonderful family life!

  387. Oooooh so all this is about your terrible mom. Don’t take it out on all women, Tony. I thought maybe you’d infer the “as long as they’re not hurting anyone” from my “…do what they want.”
    You’re pissed ’cause you had a shitty mom, and you think just retribution would be to prohibit women from having any self-determination in their lives.
    I’m sure I could find you countless “my parents suck” stories wherein the FATHER fled the family or was perpetually absent. The fact that it happens doesn’t mean men should be treated like children or forbidden from having full lives. Sheesh.

  388. “And this is telling: “The chances of a man “mating up” with no career, no earning ability, and a desire to stay home are nil.”

    It shows that you believe women are inherently “below” men, and that men who “act like women” are inferior (because women are inferior). How you can say things like this while not considering yourself a misogynist is baffling.”

    Actually, this is one of those cases where women must be the greatest patriarchal offenders, because we’re talking about their standards here. Not many female career women out looking for waiters and Walmart clerks as long term relationship material, huh Sarah?

  389. “Oooooh so all this is about your terrible mom. Don’t take it out on all women, Tony. I thought maybe you’d infer the “as long as they’re not hurting anyone” from my “…do what they want.”
    You’re pissed ’cause you had a shitty mom, and you think just retribution would be to prohibit women from having any self-determination in their lives.
    I’m sure I could find you countless “my parents suck” stories wherein the FATHER fled the family or was perpetually absent. The fact that it happens doesn’t mean men should be treated like children or forbidden from having full lives. Sheesh.”

    No, this is about the terrible political ideology that gave her cover to perpetrate her crimes – which included physical abuse (I was burnt with cigarettes, among other delicious treats) – while everyone gave her plaudits for being the feminist vanguard with “brass balls.” It is about a terrible political ideology that presumes that any woman who wants to jettison her husband, whom she freely married, is doing so for legitimate, excusable reasons.

    The point is – when adults “do what they want” after making other commitments, people always get hurt – spouses, children most of the time. Selfishness is selfishness. I really don’t care what committed bachelorettes do with their lives – career, whatever – have fun. Just don’t expect accommodations or extraordinary help from me.

    The difference, of course, when the father skips, is that he is generally thought a cad and held in low esteem by both men and women, and the law considers him a criminal for failure to support his children.

  390. my SO makes less money than i do, he manages a retail store and i work in video production.
    i’ve dated men who were in my income range but they weren’t as funny, attractive, sweet, hard-working and goofy as my guy. he’s dreamy.
    it just depends on what you’re priorities are.
    i consider myself lucky- i make a good enough wage so i can support myself, so i could concentrate on the more meaningful (to me) qualities in a relationship.

  391. Not many female career women out looking for waiters and Walmart clerks as long term relationship material, huh Sarah?

    Not all female career women are feminists. Since most women DO work, it’s safe to say they come in all stripes. But since you asked, I make more than my boyfriend. And neither of us cares. See, feminism is amazingly freeing that way. I’d never be with a man I didn’t like just because he made more than I do; conversely, the amount of money a man makes has nothing to do with whether or not I like him. It’s a common theme among feminists.

    Child abuse is not legal; it doesn’t matter if it’s a mom or a dad doing the abusing. What – did you think I was going to defend your mom or something? SOME PEOPLE ARE BAD PARENTS. Blaming feminism is ridiculous. What do you blame for fathers who abuse/neglect/abandon their children? Lemme guess… feminism again?

    Oh, and women are legally obligated to financially support their children, too. In most cases it’s the man who leaves though.

  392. And to echo what bluefish said, men who date feminists know that their girlfriends (or wives) are with them for them, and not because they need a roof over their head or fancy jewelry. Since I can support myself, I have no interest in being someone’s trophy wife, or dating men who treat me like crap just because they’re rich.

  393. i don’t know quite what to say, TONY. it’s unfortunate that your mother abused you, nobody should have to live through that.
    however, it seems as though you are projecting quite a lot of vitroil at women in general and feminism in particular. i don’t think that all women should suffer for the sins of your mother.
    i realize this is easier said than done.
    often when i fight with my boyfriend i tend to reduce him to “just another abusive shithole guy who’s bound to beat me up and then abandon me.” i do this because of a couple of bad experiences i’ve had with a stepfather and a previous boyfriend.
    it hurts him alot when i reduce him to that and i’m trying to make a concerted effort not to lump him into that category, because he’s not like that. he’s awesome, in fact.
    but old habits die hard.

  394. I really should stop feeding the anti-feminist troll, because now the thread’s been derailed, but I have to say one more thing:

    There is no correlation between feminism and abusing one’s kids. I can’t believe I even have to say this, but women who abuse their kids are not necessarily feminist; in fact I’d guess that they’re NOT feminist.

    Not all women who leave their husbands are feminists. To suggest that that’s the case is very naive. People do things for different reasons.

    Finally, equating feminism with bad parenting is ignorant and insulting. As though all great parents are traditionalists and all traditionalists are great parents. It’s pathetically simplistic to say such things, and shows a real lack of understanding of what feminism even means.

  395. The universe of parents is divided into two classes: One, who understands that parenting is a duty, and that children deserve a few basic things well before any parent’s fulfillment; and the Other, which believes that the individual fulfillment of the parent is paramount, and that children are a part of serving this end for the parent. It just so happens that committed feminists fall into the latter category – hence “you can have it all, girls.” SAHMs tend, but do not always fall into the former category, notwithstanding the fact that very many of them find full time parenting very fulfilling. I hold men and women to the first standard.

    The feminist wave gave my mother cover to do what she did – normally, people would wonder “how does she work until 8 or 9 and socialize and have a boyfriend and still raise those boys?” But, unfortunately, because the belief at the time was that the uterus is a font of wisdom, energy, compassion, and endowed the owner with the power of bi-location, and the cost of asking that question was to be labeled a sexist, no one really interfered. No one questioned whether a woman in her twenties could really handle two boys and a career of her own choice without imposing fear, misery, and outrageous physical pain. I didn’t say “feminists abuse,” I said feminism set the table for the abuse – the unilateral divorce, the stress of the career, the applause for career achievement and economic success without the obvious question “is she really raising those boys and giving them adequate time and attention?”

    And I am decidedly not aiming vitriol at women – I am holding them to a uniform standard of adult behavior. I have and have had wonderful personal relationships with women. I need women. I just realize that it is not necessary to buy into feminism to have terrific women in my life – and I think that less feminism equates to more terrific women.

  396. Tony, apparently you are very invested in believeing what you believe, but what you just wrote is a complete lie. Your mom didn’t do what she did because of feminism; she did it because (and pardon me here) she was uncaring and uncommitted to you. You don’t need to be a feminist to be uncaring or uncommitted. Haven’t you ever watched that awful show Supernanny or whatever it’s called? SAHMs aren’t automatically good moms.
    And SAHMs and feminists are not two separate groups. I know a few SAHMs who are radical feminists. So are they good parents or bad parents? Why you insist on splitting the world into two distinct groups is beyond me.
    I happen to think parenting is a duty, and that children deserve a few basic things well before any parent’s fulfillment. How do you reconcile this with the fact that I am a feminist? “Do what you want” does not mean “…at the expense of others.” It doesn’t. Pretending we think it does is disingenuous. Parenting is such a duty, in fact, that people should not become parents until they are absolutely, positively ready! THAT is what most feminists belive, in my experience. But keep telling us what we believe.

    Less feminism equates to more terrific women. Interesting. Do you think they’re so terrific because they see themselves as existing for your pleasure, childbearing and/or titilation? There’s got to be a reason you prefer to be around women who consider themselves the second sex.

  397. so feminism basically advocates for women to have options which empower them to be on equal footing with men.
    feminism argues that women are human and should be allowed treated as such in our society.
    i think these are really basic ideas and i fail to see how they are controversial.
    i know a lot of terrific women, too and even if they don’t always self-identify as feminists, they lead their lives in ways in which i would consider feminist.
    you either believe that women are fully human or you don’t.

  398. ‘Round the circle we go, huh Sarah?

    Look, you can jump up and down all day saying that feminism is great for everyone, ignoring the correlation, and I argue the causation, between the installation of feminist policies and a decline of family life and the overall welfare of children.
    That doesn’t make it so.

    Would my mother describe herself as a feminist? Probably. But is she one? Intellectually, not really – I don’t think she’s read any of the books, and if I told her that to be a feminist now you have to believe that the sexes are the product of social constructs, she would tell me to shut the fuck up. But in her life – in the way that she lived? I think that she is the feminist shocktruppe that many of you wish that you were.

    And no, I do not seek out inferiors – just women who are comfortable being women, and enjoy it quite a bit. I lived in Europe for a time, and women (at least Continentals) don’t have this chip on their shoulder that you all seem to have.

  399. Some people want to believe that feminism tells women to screw over everyone in their lives, especially their children. Where this comes from, I don’t know; because in my short experience talking to other feminists on various blogs and IRL, I have never heard that behavior advocated. It has nothing to do with feminism.
    Almost all the feminists I know are very sensitive to children’s rights, and recoil at child abuse of all kinds.
    I guess some people have bad experiences with a woman they considered feminist (even if she didn’t consider herself one), and that experience distorts their outlook for the rest of their lives. Neglecting your children so you can get yours is not a tenant of feminism. I don’t know why I even bother. There’s a Feminism 101 blog now; I don’t have to do all the work.

  400. “feminism argues that women are human and should be allowed treated as such in our society.
    i think these are really basic ideas and i fail to see how they are controversial.
    i know a lot of terrific women, too and even if they don’t always self-identify as feminists, they lead their lives in ways in which i would consider feminist.
    you either believe that women are fully human or you don’t.”

    No, it doesn’t advocate, it coerces, and seeks to destroy any comity and good will between men and women by consistently telling the latter that they are the victims of some awful conspiracy. The controversial part comes from the inevitable man-hating, family hating flavor that you exhibit.

    Now, if you were honest, you would admit that the real problem you have with the status quo is that certain attributes – and thus certain opportunities – are distributed among women differently than they are among men. You don’t think that a beautiful and nice woman of ordinary intellect deserves to have an affluent life by virtue of being beautiful and nice, and you resent her for it.

    When did I say that women aren’t “fully human?” That’s right, I didn’t, or anything like that. It is clear to the majority of people that women are essentially different than men – that is all – and this is not the product of some terrible, oppressive social construct.

  401. If I can jump in, it seems that what Tony is saying isn’t that his mother did the things she did because of feminism, but that feminism gave her cover. Everyone was so impressed with her “brass balls” that they failed to notice (or they noticed and excused) her neglecting and abusing her children. Why he thinks feminism is an ideology that condones the neglect and abuse of children is beyond me. Tony, having a career outside the home does not cause someone to abuse or neglect her children. You mention your mother being able to “unilaterally” divorce your father in your list of the evils of feminism. Do you think your mother would have magically transformed into an attentive, caring, loving person if she had been forced to remain married to your father and been prohibited from having a career?

  402. “Some people want to believe that feminism tells women to screw over everyone in their lives, especially their children. Where this comes from, I don’t know; because in my short experience talking to other feminists on various blogs and IRL, I have never heard that behavior advocated. It has nothing to do with feminism.
    Almost all the feminists I know are very sensitive to children’s rights, and recoil at child abuse of all kinds.
    I guess some people have bad experiences with a woman they considered feminist (even if she didn’t consider herself one), and that experience distorts their outlook for the rest of their lives. Neglecting your children so you can get yours is not a tenant of feminism. I don’t know why I even bother. There’s a Feminism 101 blog now; I don’t have to do all the work.”

    Well, look – I’m a Catholic. Misogyny is not a tenant of Catholic belief – when I speak with other Catholics, no one says “hey, let’s go do some misogyny before bingo!” All the Catholics that I know like and respect women. But I know that you consider the Church an exemplar of all sorts of horrible misogyny. So you see, how you self perceive, and how others perceive (rightly or wrongly) are many times very, very different things.

  403. “Do you think your mother would have magically transformed into an attentive, caring, loving person if she had been forced to remain married to your father and been prohibited from having a career?”

    No, but it would have been harder to get away with the cigarette burning thing if there was someone else in the room, no?

  404. If you do not believe in the social, political and economic equality of women, you do not respect women.

    Oh, and that’s a really good point, raging red. Tony’s mother would not have transformed into an attentive, caring, loving mom if she had been forced to remain married to his father and been prohibited from having a career (because of the absence of feminism). She, and she alone, deserves the blame.

    Tony, why the fuck are you here??

  405. So it’s not feminism in general you’re mad at – it’s the fact that divorce is legal. :rolls eyes:

  406. Well, look – I’m a Catholic. Misogyny is not a tenant of Catholic belief – when I speak with other Catholics, no one says “hey, let’s go do some misogyny before bingo!” All the Catholics that I know like and respect women. But I know that you consider the Church an exemplar of all sorts of horrible misogyny. So you see, how you self perceive, and how others perceive (rightly or wrongly) are many times very, very different things.

    Individual Catholics may or may not be misogynist. The Catholic Church is an organization that categorically denies women access to its power structure and forbids its followers to use contraception – which is almost universally agreed to be the key element to women (and the poor in general) to improve their lives.

    You don’t have to rant and rave about how much you hate someone. If you’re deliberately and systematically working to hurt them, that says enough.

  407. No, but it would have been harder to get away with the cigarette burning thing if there was someone else in the room, no?

    Also, you are assuming that your dad was an upstanding guy who would have stopped the abuse. What if he wasn’t? Feminism still to blame?

    And:
    The Catholic Church is an institution. Feminism is not. As an institution, yes, the Church is misogynist. Not all Catholics are. You can even be a feminist Catholic. I think there’s even a thread on that topic somewhere.
    If you agree with everything the Catholic Church says and does, you are a misogynist. If that makes you uncomfortable, perhaps you should rethink your faith and ditch the church.

  408. Ack! I forgot to mention that people perceive the Catholic Church as misogynist because of it’s policies and the things it says (some of which are anti-woman, or anti-human even). It has a record, and people can judge it based on that record.
    Feminism is not a tangible institution that issues press releases or demands strict adherence to certain guidelines in order to be a member of the club.

  409. “If you do not believe in the social, political and economic equality of women, you do not respect women.”

    Shorter Sarah: If you do not agree with the farthest reaches of radfem you are a bigot and I have no interest dialoguing with you.

    Great strategem, Sarah – it might not be responsible for getting the feminist movement where it is today?

    Also, your claim that the “social, political, and economic equality of women” is desirable or compulsory is supported by what, exactly? Where do we get that? I’m asking because I’d like to know what ethical philosophy you appeal to that compels me to recognize your notion of “equality?”

  410. Wow, that’s some strained logic you’ve got there, Tony. Women should be forced to stay home and raise children so that child abuse will be easier to detect. I don’t believe I’ve heard that particular argument before. It’s a head scratcher.

  411. “Ack! I forgot to mention that people perceive the Catholic Church as misogynist because of it’s policies and the things it says (some of which are anti-woman, or anti-human even). It has a record, and people can judge it based on that record.
    Feminism is not a tangible institution that issues press releases or demands strict adherence to certain guidelines in order to be a member of the club.”

    Right. Because supporting legal abortion on demand isn’t a requisite, and opposing doesn’t make you “evil.” (see above).

  412. “Wow, that’s some strained logic you’ve got there, Tony. Women should be forced to stay home and raise children so that child abuse will be easier to detect. I don’t believe I’ve heard that particular argument before. It’s a head scratcher.”

    Mmmm, thanks for putting those words in my mouth, red. They were tasty, like pie.

  413. social, political and economic equality of women-

    what is it about this concept that sounds radical to you, TONY?
    to me, it sounds fair, equal and just.

  414. Tony,

    Are you a pro-choicer pretending to be a pro-lifer to turn people off from the movement?

    Also, your claim that the “social, political, and economic equality of women” is desirable or compulsory is supported by what, exactly? Where do we get that? I’m asking because I’d like to know what ethical philosophy you appeal to that compels me to recognize your notion of “equality?”

    Nice bait and switch. Sarah started off by saying that, unless you support the political, economic, and social equality of women, you are not a feminist – a term which is defined by an adherence to those factors.

    If I were to define a “tree monkey” as someone who believes in the intellectual superiourity of frat boys, a person could hardly claim to call himself a “tree monkey” if he does not support the intellectual superiourity of frat boys. One can certainly dispute whether or not that is an ideal state of affairs, but turning the definition around is intellectually dishonest.

    Likewise, if you’re not a feminist, fine. Just don’t call yourself one.

    Furthermore, you also, at the end, added this little clause: “your notion of [equality].” Well, Tony, which one is it? Do you support the political, economic, and social equality of women, but disagree with Sarah over what constitutes “equality?” Or do you think that women are inferiour to men and should occupy a lower place in our society?

    Replace “women” with “blacks” and you’ll get the picture. I don’t quite feel like getting into a natural rights discussion – being a bit of a Randian, I can’t help but think that society is best served by letting the most productive people be their productive selves – but I’m quite curious as to why you would think that equality is not a desirable thing.

  415. ““If you do not believe in the social, political and economic equality of women, you do not respect women.”

    Shorter Sarah: If you do not agree with the farthest reaches of radfem you are a bigot and I have no interest dialoguing with you.”

    “Also, your claim that the “social, political, and economic equality of women” is desirable or compulsory is supported by what, exactly?”

    I find it infinitely amusing that you ended up explicitly legitimizing the criticism you hoped to undermine. Good show.

  416. The most ignorant part of this entire thing is the assumption that all pro-life advocates is that we all think exactly alike. DO you really think that no pro-lifers think about the whole picture. How close-minded!
    Women who kill their children should be treated according to the statutes in the state concerning murder where they have the abortion.
    The life of a child is the most precious thing we have on this planet. Noone has the right to take another’s life. If life does not start at conception when then does it? At implantation? First kick (and would that be first FELT kick or first unfelt kick? Or is it when labor begins? when the head crowns- when the head is all the way out? or is it when the torso is out? What about the legs- feet do they have to be out to? Point is at what point is it really okay to take the life of another? Who can really prove at what point a baby becomes a real live person? Is a woman’s convenience a reasonable reason to take a life away from a child? People say it is a woman’s body, but is it really? Isn’t the body that is going to end up having the life taken from it the child’s? Does anyone not hear their cries for help?

  417. Also I am amazed that so many women seem to have forgotten that one of the most special parts about being a woman is the ability to bring children into this world. You can be a mother and still have a wonderful productive life. Or you can choose to give a child from an unwanted pregnancy to a couple who desperately want a child they can’t have on their own. Is nine months of one’s life to much to give up to save you own child’s life? Personally, I love my children more than life itself. I would readily go to my grave if it meant protecting my children. I consider myself to be a loving, strong, determined, successful, incredibly happy, feminist.
    I just don’t believe in allowing anyone including women to kill. This is very equal to men (what feminist claim they want)…men aren’t allowed to kill anyone either.

  418. Wait…

    Farthest reaches of radfem…

    earning the same as men.
    having the same basic human rights as men.
    having the same access to all things as men.

    Farthest reaches? Because, y’know, I though those were the basic tenets of feminism; as in, we just want to be treated equally. We don’t want to be treated as less than men.

    And what support do you have that proves women should not be equal? Why should we be inferior?

  419. “I find it infinitely amusing that you ended up explicitly legitimizing the criticism you hoped to undermine. Good show.”

    Just because you recognize all of the words that I have written does not mean that you actually understand what I have written – that is, unless simply asking feminists where “rights” come from, and in particular “equality” is verboten? In such a case, it would seem to me that feminism has the attribute of a rather primitive religion, no?

  420. “earning the same as men.
    having the same basic human rights as men.
    having the same access to all things as men.”

    Well, I guess the rub is the remedy that you all propose to solve the alleged illness – I don’t suppose you have heard of the children’s song about the “old lady who swallowed a fly?” And quite a bit of what you advocate goes quite far afield of “sameness” and “equality.”

    I suppose you would propose that access to abortion is a matter of equality with men? Of course, there must be a few illogical twists and zig-zags to get there – because you and I know if I showed up at the clinic inquiring about an abortion, I would be the object of much laughter.

  421. One is never allowed to intentionally take the life of another innocent person … The principle of Double Effect works in the case of ectopic pregnanicies. The removal of the fallopian tube where the fetus has been implanted is the moral way of taking care of the mother, however, the fetus does die. In this act, the indirect dead of another (the fetus) is the secondary effect of the good/indifferent act of the removal of the infected fallopian tube… Methotrexate cannot be used because it directly kills the fetus.

    Nick, I’ve read though this quote several times, and seen others like it before, and still don’t see the distinction, even granting that the embryo is a person (which of course I do not). I’ve tried very hard to understand, as a possible abstract principle that I don’t agree with, why one death is direct, and the other is indirect, and I’m still not seeing it. I’m willing to stipulate that consequentalism is incorrect, and that results through action are worse than those through inaction. I’m still not seeing it.

    In both cases, the doctor is intentionally choosing to carry out actions that he knows will, with 100% certainty, cause the death of the embryo/tiny person as an expected but undesired consequence. What makes one direct, and the other indirect? Removal of the fallopian tube leads directly to the embryo’s death. You know that the embryo won’t survive without the nutrients sent to it by the mother. Can I neglect to give a prisoner food and water for a month, because I’d rather play computer solitaire, and then claim that her death is an indirect, unintended consequence? Can I put a plastic bag around someone’s head, and then attribute his death to oxygen deprivation, rather than directly to my actions? With either fallopian tube removal or methotrexate, the doctor who believes the embryo is a person can correctly comfort himself by saying that he had to make a choice to save the mother, and that the embryo would have died regardless; but with neither procedure can the doctor reasonably act as if the embryo’s death is just some indirect result, distant from his actions.

    So to me, it looks like a policy that calls for regular removal of fallopian tubes over the use of methotrexate, is not one that cares for women and fetuses equally; it just looks to me like one that doesn’t care much about women. The thing is, as an academic I like armchair hypotheticals, with burning buildings, runaway trolleys, and so on. But those armchairs are always fun, distant hypotheticals, disconnected from real people, while this one is a real situation that occurs every day in hospitals around the world. So let me put it this way. Suppose you went to the hospital, and the doctor said that she was deciding between curing you by giving you a perfectly safe drug, or by cutting off your arm. And then she looked you in the eye, and said that she was going to cut off your arm, based on a philosophical distinction so fine that you couldn’t see it after multiple attempts. You’d probably think that the doctor wasn’t much interested in your welfare. That sounds harsh, but I don’t know how else to see it.

    God love you, Nick.

  422. Nick, in my lengthy response (in moderation) I didn’t respond to your “Saw”-based analogy, because I suspect that you were anticipating arguments I did not actually make. I can respond to that analogy separately if you want.

    And yes, you can say “God love me” to me. Since I’m an atheist, I’m not sure I process it in precisely the way you intend, but I understand that it is meant as a kindness, and am happy to take it as such. God love you, Nick.

  423. You’d probably think that the doctor wasn’t much interested in your welfare.

    Nick, reading back on my post, I want to make a clarification. By the statement above I mean that that the people who make a regular policy of fallopian tube removal over methotrexate don’t seem to care about the welfare of women. I’m not saying that you don’t care about the welfare of women.

  424. You’re right that there is no direct equivalent for men in terms of pregnancy and abortion. The abortion issue stems from the need for equal access to medical treatment, generally.

    Sometimes, when ectopic pregnancies occur, women find their doctors refusing to provide an abortion due to their own personal beliefs; even though in this instance failure to provide such surgery could result in her death. The woman is left to seek surgery from elsewhere, or to opt for removal of the fallopian tube.

    When have you ever heard of a doctor refusing to offer a man a life-saving procedure because of personal beliefs, or of a man being asked to have a more-risky, more-damaging procedure to assuage those same beliefs?

    Okay… wrote the above then saw Autumn’s response to Nick and it pretty much says the same thing. Sorry.

  425. Also, your claim that the “social, political, and economic equality of women” is desirable or compulsory is supported by what, exactly? Where do we get that?

    that is, unless simply asking feminists where “rights” come from, and in particular “equality” is verboten? In such a case, it would seem to me that feminism has the attribute of a rather primitive religion, no?

    Tony, I don’t think anyone here is opposed to answering your question. I can only speak for myself, of course, but I suspect every feminist’s response to the question of where we get the notion of women’s equality would be some variation of: basic human rights. Where do these rights come from? A basic sense of humanity, a feeling that we should treat others as we would want to be treated. If by “primitive” you mean: basic, simple, elementary, [let’s consult the dictionary now] not derived from something else, relating or belonging to forces of nature, then yeah, I’d say it’s primitive. That makes it all the more appalling that there are still people in 2007 who don’t believe in women’s equality and have to ask where that idea even comes from.

    Also, to answer your other question:

    I suppose you would propose that access to abortion is a matter of equality with men?

    Yes. Men and women should have an equal right to control their own bodies. No, you don’t have a uterus, but you have a right to bodily integrity. Women should have that same right. Where does the right to bodily integrity come from? It’s also a matter of basic human rights.

  426. Here’s the thing:

    Those of us who believe women should, as bluefish said, have options which empower them to be on equal footing with men, simply believe that that’s the fair and just state. We conclude that by using reason; we realize women and men are equally human and deserving of certain basic rights. To us, it’s not a question of, “why should women be treated with the same dignity and respect as men?” but why shouldn’t they?”
    To Tony, the default position is that men are superior to women, so he has to wonder why women should be allowed self-determination, etc. To us, it’s the opposite case. Why shouldn’t they?
    It’s clear he’s also invested in the strict gender binary system. You’re either a man (exhibiting specific “masculine” characteristics) or woman (exhibiting specifically “feminine” characteristics). Deviance from the binary is punished. To us, all people are just… people. Everyone exists on a spectrum. Everyone has unique personalities and everyone has human emotions, wants and needs – both “masculine” and “feminine.”

  427. Rebecca,
    Why is the life of a child is the most precious thing we have on this planet? At what point during people’s lives do they begin losing value? When they become legal adults at 18?

    And no, we can’t hear the cries for help. Because zygotes don’t cry. They don’t have central nervous systems, nor do they have functioning brains. They do not anticipate or fear their deaths. They have no idea what’s going on. They’re blank.

  428. “Also I am amazed that so many women seem to have forgotten that one of the most special parts about being a woman is the ability to bring children into this world. You can be a mother and still have a wonderful productive life.”

    What makes you think we don’t realize this? Just because women can bring children into the world doesn’t mean they have to. Men have been using women’s ability to bear children against us for ages. People like Tony don’t think women can be mothers while continuing to participate fully in society. Once you become a mother, that’s it. That’s who you are. Now, when men become fathers they continue to participate fully in society. And if they buy the kid an ice cream cone now and then they’re considered Dad of the Year.

    “Or you can choose to give a child from an unwanted pregnancy to a couple who desperately want a child they can’t have on their own. Is nine months of one’s life to much to give up to save you own child’s life?”

    Abortion is an alternative to pregnancy as well as parenthood. You don’t know what pregnancy means to other women. Currently, the religious right that wishes to outlaw abortion simultaneously works to make pregnancy and motherhood as difficult and punishing as possible for women. Women lose their jobs when they get pregnant. They don’t have access to affordable pre-natal care (let alone healthcare for born children). Not to mention the fact that for some women, pregnancy would mean a drastic and harmful change to their own health.

    “Personally, I love my children more than life itself. I would readily go to my grave if it meant protecting my children. I consider myself to be a loving, strong, determined, successful, incredibly happy, feminist.”

    And it’s perfectly fine and normal for you to feel that way. Many pro-choice women feel the same way. But that doesn’t mean giving up one’s life for a child/fetus should be legally mandated.

  429. “Tony, I don’t think anyone here is opposed to answering your question. I can only speak for myself, of course, but I suspect every feminist’s response to the question of where we get the notion of women’s equality would be some variation of: basic human rights. Where do these rights come from? A basic sense of humanity, a feeling that we should treat others as we would want to be treated. If by “primitive” you mean: basic, simple, elementary, [let’s consult the dictionary now] not derived from something else, relating or belonging to forces of nature, then yeah, I’d say it’s primitive. That makes it all the more appalling that there are still people in 2007 who don’t believe in women’s equality and have to ask where that idea even comes from.”

    Once again, you’re kicking the can down the road – “basic human rights” and “basic sense of humanity?”

    Are you to mean something of worth that transcends the material reality of an individual’s body?

    “Treat others as we would want to be treated” also sounds quite familiar, but I can’t place it – do you have a source for that, or did you pen that yourself?

  430. “Those of us who BELIEVE women should, as bluefish said, have options which empower them to be on equal footing with men, simply BELIEVE that that’s the fair and just state. We conclude that by using REASON; we realize women and men are equally human and deserving of certain basic rights.”

    Beliefs – yes – but you haven’t demonstrated by reason how you arrive at “men and women are equal” and entitled to, for example, “equal pay” where all evidence demonstrates that women are unable to produce equivalent outcomes in many occupations. I’ve also noticed that it is only certain, desirable things for which you seek equality – I have NEVER seen a female garbage collector, nor have I heard very much nattering from feminists about getting women through the old boys’ club and into those wonderful jobs.

  431. “Treat others as we would want to be treated” also sounds quite familiar, but I can’t place it – do you have a source for that, or did you pen that yourself?

    If that’s your cute way of saying that it comes from the Bible, I’ve got news for you: people were writing about the Golden Rule long before Christ supposedly existed.

  432. “Men and women should have an equal right to control their own bodies. No, you don’t have a uterus, but you have a right to bodily integrity. Women should have that same right. Where does the right to bodily integrity come from? It’s also a matter of basic human rights.”

    This is simply untrue – I do not, nor have I ever had a right to absolute “bodily intergrity/autonomy.” Although I did accept a commission in the Marine Corps, I did register for selective service upon turning eighteen, as I recall, which means that the government could conscript MY BODY, ship MY BODY 2000 miles away, order me to use MY BODY to kill the enemy, or order me to position MY BODY in a place where the likelihood of MY BODY being utterly destroyed is quite high, and all this despite whether I would prefer to park MY BODY on a beach. You know what? Them’s the breaks – no complaints from me, becuase it is my DUTY and OFFICE as an able-bodied man of military age.

    Other examples of the government interfering with my “bodily integrity” would be the FDA, state and federal criminalization of illicit drugs, public smoking bans, criminal laws against public nudity, public urination and defication, sleeping in a public place, and so on. I happen to think that, with the exception of some administrative rulings of the FDA and public smoking bans applicable in bars/taverns/restaurants, they are all pretty good things, because I really don’t have the time to research everything that I might otherwise consume or use to medicate myself.

    So there we have it – abortion truly is sui generis.

  433. “If that’s your cute way of saying that it comes from the Bible, I’ve got news for you: people were writing about the Golden Rule long before Christ supposedly existed.”

    No, it is not my cute way of doing anything other than to point out that you are making an appeal to one or another ancient moral code, some revalatory, others arising from an earthly lawgiver cum demigod, that you would otherwise say is irrelevant to public discourse by virtue of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution.

  434. “where all evidence demonstrates that women are unable to produce equivalent outcomes in many occupations

    What evidence, exactly?”

    In part, the evidence that you would use to support the existence of a “glass ceiling.” But also the dominance of men in, for example, the number of patents granted. One, if she was fair, might also look to the very material, physical world that she inhabits – the home in which she lives, the car in which she drives, the roads upon which she drives that car, the building in which she learns or works – and admit that “men designed and built all of this.”

  435. Oh this is rich. Perhaps “men built all this” because until fairly recently, women were confined to the home and therefore didn’t have the opportunity to “build things?” (thanks contraception!)
    You bitch that women belong in the home and then hold it against women for not surpassing men in the workforce yet. And we will, believe you me. Women are already out-performing men in higher education and even K-12. Guess that must mean boys and men are inherently less intelligent than women, right? That IS the logic you use to conclude that women can’t hack it in the workplace.

    And have you not heard of the movie North Country? Feminists definitely want women to have an easier time getting into traditionally male jobs. Men give them a hard time when they try, though – subjecting them to abuse and harassment, and then complain that they’re weak when more women don’t enter the police force, military, garbage collecting, etc.

    And who thinks less of SAHMs? You are the one who considers it beneath men to be stay-at-home parents. That it’d be ridiculous to ask the same things of men that you ask of women.

  436. Yeah, those lazy women who can’t invent things while they’re home raising your rugrats, cleaning your house and cooking your food. You’re endorsing the double-bind: Women shouldn’t work, because women aren’t as innovative/enterprising as men (because, um, they’ve been stuck maintaining households for the men).

  437. Oh yes – you’ve had several decades since the invention of the pill and judicial sanction of infanticide, so all you terrific resourceful feminists are out building some wonderful public structures that would put Ramses’ city to shame – or are you all engaged in some pursuit or another that has you anchored to a desk or a milk steamer?

    Double bind? Not really – you see, it seems that way to you because your entire ideology is a tautology – when women perform up to snuff, women are equal (you really mean “same”) or superior, when women do not perform well, women are the victims of the unseen hand of the patriarchy. When I point out that a pretty dependable indicia of how well one has lived – i.e. how healthy and cared for one has been – viz, average life expectancy – consistently favors women, you say that “the patriarchy is bad for men, too.” To you it is elementary and obvious, but those of us not so invested see the circularity of the thing. The evidence, positive or negative, yields the same outcome.

  438. Now, for a bit of nuance – abilities, interests, and temperaments are distributed differently among men and women. It really isn’t very hard to see, and it explains quite a lot, all without resorting to a belief that women who have positive relationships with men along “traditional” lines are “brainwashed” by the patriarchy.

  439. Abilities, interests and temperaments are influenced by society. Like I said before, girls do not pop out of the womb liking the color pink.
    Some little boys show an interest in dolls – you would most certainly steer him away from that and towards something more “masculine.” If he complies, does that mean he prefers trucks/guns/football because he’s a boy, or because his parents, peers, and society as a whole told him he should?
    Assertive little girls are often encouraged to quiet down and be nice and punished when they assert themselves or “act like boys.” Was she mistaken when she acted out her own inclination to be assertive? If you have to tell children how to behave, according to gender, their behavior is not actually inate.

  440. Face it: “positive relationships with men along ‘traditional’ lines” is code for “accepts her position as inferior to men.”
    You’ll deny it, but what else does “traditional” mean?
    You’ve been talking in code since you started posting in here, but it’s clear what you mean. You just won’t say it because you know it makes you a misogynist and for some reason you’re uncomfortable with that.
    What do you think of the way women are treated under the Taliban? I’m sure you’ll say it’s terrible, but the only reason you Christofascists oppose the Taliban is because they subjugate women in the name of Allah rather than Jesus. You’re two sides of the same coin.

  441. 1. How many children do you plan to adopt if you haven’t already?
    2. Will you daughters (poor children) be given the opportunity to attend college if they wish?
    3. Will your sons (poor children) be supported if they decide to become nurses?

    It’s inappropriate for me to continue defending feminism here. You’re boring.

  442. This may pop up twice, as I got impatient waiting for it to come out of moderation, and I have to get going:

    Face it: “positive relationships with men along ‘traditional’ lines” is code for “accepts her position as inferior to men.”
    You’ll deny it, but what else does “traditional” mean?
    You’ve been talking in code since you started posting in here, but it’s clear what you mean. You just won’t say it because you know it makes you a misogynist and for some reason you’re uncomfortable with that.
    What do you think of the way women are treated under the Taliban? I’m sure you’ll say it’s terrible, but the only reason you Christofascists oppose the Taliban is because they subjugate women in the name of Allah rather than Jesus. You’re two sides of the same coin.

    and:

    1. How many children do you plan to adopt if you haven’t already?
    2. Will you daughters (poor children) be given the opportunity to attend college if they wish?
    3. Will your sons (poor children) be supported if they decide to become nurses?

    It’s inappropriate for me to continue defending feminism here. You’re boring.

    Tony, you are a rude, self-righteous troll. You sure have been asking a lot of questions but answering none. You were given the opportunity to tell us why women shouldn’t/i> participate fully in the public sphere (other than “my mom abused me”) and why we don’t deserve social, economic and political equality. It is cruel and patriarchal to deny people (women AND men) opportunities because of what’s between their legs. People are more than their sex. Period.

  443. You’ve had forty years of making little girls play with trucks…

    Ah, yes. The feminazi’s favorite pastime. Taking dolls from little girls and not letting them have their supper until they’ve made the appropriate number of sand mountains with the dump truck and saved the requisite number of green army men with the fire truck.

  444. Ah, yes. The feminazi’s favorite pastime. Taking dolls from little girls and not letting them have their supper until they’ve made the appropriate number of sand mountains with the dump truck and saved the requisite number of green army men with the fire truck.

    You forgot the part about abusing any little boys with pluck – which is to say a goodly number – with a course of psychotropic drugs.

  445. Hey, Tony? Sweetie?

    (Don’t worry, everybody, as of comment #142 on the “137 comments in…” thread, Tony and I are on intimate terms)

    I hate to threadjack, but I’m still waiting for your answer on that thread:

    1) Who are the scientists or organizations that are working on an artificial uterus that can support an embryo from a point early enough in a pregnancy that the woman won’t have felt any significant physical symptoms yet? Names and links please.

    2) Who are the doctors who are developing a surgical procedure, safer and simpler than abortion, that can transfer the abovementioned embryo into the abovementioned artificial uterus without killing the embryo outright? Names and links, please.

    I know that those things must exist, or else you would never have said that they would exist within twenty years, revolutionizing this entire debate.

    Please answer soon, or people will start to think that you can yammer on for days on end that there is no philosophical basis for women being equal to men, but that you just ignore it and hope it will go away when someone demands evidence of one of your arguments that should rightfully have it.

  446. No, but it would have been harder to get away with the cigarette burning thing if there was someone else in the room, no?

    Uh, but who would that be? Your dad would have been at work and you would have been trapped all alone helpless in the room with your mom for most of the day. That helps your situation how? Don’t tell me–June Cleaver had a neighbor who was always coming over for coffee–she would have seen what was happening, and taken action.

    I keep forgetting when the feminists started controlling the weather. I know it was after they took over the media and government and established theh hammerlock on public policy, I just forget the exact year.

    Tony, Are you a pro-choicer pretending to be a pro-lifer to turn people off from the movement?

    LOL, I’m sure that SAHMs are delighted to have such am obviously woman-loving type on their side, too. And as far as military families go, thanks so much for demolishing the stereotype that Marines are overly aggressive, belligerant, ignorant and misogynist assholes with deep seated mental health issues–we really appreciate your help here.

  447. I would imagine that most intelligent pro lifers clearly know that abortion does not equal murder and that a fetus does not equal a born human.

    Clearly the lawmakers who propose anti abortion laws without criminal punishment for the both recognize a fetus as not being the same as a born human. It makes abortion an illegal operation which would be malpractice for a doctor to administer. I don’t see how it is saying anything about the woman other than she is willfully seeking an illegal medical oporation. The crime lies with the doctor. Just as you wont prosecute a drug addict with a fraction of the force as you prosecute a drug dealer.

  448. “You forgot the part about abusing any little boys with pluck – which is to say a goodly number – with a course of psychotropic drugs.”

    The boys themselves, of course, never think this is a good thing. The six year old in my mom’s class whose parents finally agreed to try Ritalin most certainly did not thank them for doing so. He really wished he could have gone on hardly able to think clearly or control himself – just so that some people wouldn’t get all squicked out.

    And in a completely unrelated development, full day kindergartens are most definitely not on the rise and this non-development is in no way connected to politicians pushing for higher standards in younger grades. Neither would such a actions, if they were true, be against the advice of the female dominated early education profession. As if politicians should listen to such lazy whiners anyway, when it’s obvious that they just don’t want to have to do their jobs. Most of them aren’t even real teachers anyway.

    Plus, it’s not at all true that girls with ADHD are more likely to go undiagnosed simply because their symptoms are more likely to only affect them. So their not getting the same help the boys get in no way hurts them later in life. And all that good penmanship and keeping their hands to themselves and other great worker drone behavior that girls are praised for in school so totally translates to higher pay later in life.

  449. “It makes abortion an illegal operation which would be malpractice for a doctor to administer. I don’t see how it is saying anything about the woman other than she is willfully seeking an illegal medical oporation. The crime lies with the doctor. Just as you wont prosecute a drug addict with a fraction of the force as you prosecute a drug dealer.”

    But again, that doesn’t make sense. We only make such surgeries illegal to perform, but not to obtain, if they are dangerous for the patient. Abortion isn’t dangerous for the patient. (At the very least, that’s not the argument being made for making it illegal.)

    The argument being made is that it’s dangerous for the fetus. But that we should prosecute as if the the pregnant woman was a victim of fraud or equally harmed* by the procedure.

    Which is a weird way of describing the situation. The entire point of the procedure is to harm the fetus, and no one involved is under the illusion that anything else will happen. So this isn’t like guardians making misguided choices for their charges. It is, if one calls abortion murder, exactly like murder for hire. To call it anything less is to say that women are incapable of understanding something as basic as the desired outcome of an abortion.

    *of course, the nice catch-22 is that, if abortion is made illegal, women will be put at great risk by trying to obtain outside of hospitals what can be a simple medical procedure within them. So maybe anti-choicers are just forward thinkers and are imagining lots of back alley abortions with women left so maimed that the public would balk at prosecuting them.

  450. Tony, you are a rude, self-righteous troll.

    So – I’m a troll in a thread that solicits “Pro-lifers,” which, by your own definition are misogynists, to contribute their opinion? Of course, your calling me a troll for indulging the blogmistress’ invitation demonstrates that you (and perhaps she) did not really want participation, but instead wanted Pro-lifers to: a) show up in the thread and cower in the face of such an irrefutable non-sequitor proposition; or b) give one answer or another to be ridiculed but never addressed.

  451. LOL, I’m sure that SAHMs are delighted to have such am obviously woman-loving type on their side, too. And as far as military families go, thanks so much for demolishing the stereotype that Marines are overly aggressive, belligerant, ignorant and misogynist assholes with deep seated mental health issues–we really appreciate your help here.

    Coast Guard or Air Force? I’m certain that you held your opinion of Marines well before my contribution. Thank whomever for being a good lil’ helper whenever we need to kill the enemy in a forward area.

  452. You didn’t give your opinion, Tony. You mocked us for even asking the question and proceeded to waste a whole lot of space using euphamisms and flowery language to avoid stating outright that you think women are mental midgets who can’t be trusted to make decisions for themselves. It’s like your “traditional relationship” bullshit. Just come out and say that you prefer relationships with women wherein they’re submissive to you.

    And you’re right, bud; we ladies have had a couple decades (with contraception and WOOHOO abortion) to pursue careers outside the home – a couple decades out of hundreds of thousands of years of second-class treatment (which we still endure all over the world today), and we haven’t managed to overthrow the patriarchy. Guess we should throw in the proverbial towel and get back in our place. Then you wouldn’t have to compete with us anymore. Competing with us is clearly not good for your “superior manly man” image. 🙂

  453. Well, my opinion of military types is informed by the fact that they have such a penchant for raping and assaulting any woman who dares to cross his path or look at him the wrong way – including their wives. Kids too.

  454. Well, my opinion of military types is informed by the fact that they have such a penchant for raping and assaulting any woman who dares to cross his path or look at him the wrong way – including their wives. Kids too.

    Well, there you have it – The feminist/Leftist worldview in a nutshell. But I would never question your Patriotism.

  455. You didn’t give your opinion, Tony. You mocked us for even asking the question and proceeded to waste a whole lot of space using euphamisms and flowery language to avoid stating outright that you think women are mental midgets who can’t be trusted to make decisions for themselves.

    I gave my position several times, and at length in the other thread. You just couldn’t refute the answer with more “if abortion is murder hang the mother” nonsense.

    I said that a pregnant woman who may not want to be at a given time is under duress, like the suicide (also morally murder), or in your view (until your shameful post at 507) combat soldiers and marines in an illegal, immoral war. The punishment should be as it was before Roe, which is to say no punishment for the woman, like there is no punishment for the suicide or the soldier or marine. Status quo ante. Simple, no?

  456. avoid stating outright that you think women are mental midgets who can’t be trusted to make decisions for themselves.

    Yet your ideology is based upon the principle that women loving men and nurturing children, wearing dresses and makeup, and not pursuing careers as garbage collectors and septic tank scrubbers is the product of a millenia-old campaign of brainwashing, and that these choices are somehow not what a clear-headed woman would elect f her own free will.

  457. Yeah, Ritalin was created as part of an evil feminist conspiracy to turn little boys in to zombies. *eyeroll*

    Kind of like how pots and pans were created to keep women in barefeet and pregnant.

  458. I would imagine that most intelligent pro lifers clearly know that abortion does not equal murder and that a fetus does not equal a born human.

    Surix, are you pro-life and stating your own position, or are you pro-choice, but guessing as to the position of an “intelligent pro-lifer”? Because it seems to me that virtually all pro-lifers do think that a fetus equals a born human.

  459. a couple decades out of hundreds of thousands of years of second-class treatment

    Can anyone else spot the rather obvious falsity of Sarah’s statement? Anyone?

  460. I’ve been keeping track in this thread of the answers from pro-lifers as to how a woman who has an abortion should be punished, and why. I thought I would post the summary in case anyone is interested in seeing the results without reading through this whole 500+ count thread. I’ve tried to fairly distill their answers into how they would give concise answers as to the punishment and rationale. This was not always an easy task, since some of the rationales don’t seem to make any sense, and at least one poster struck me as pathologically incoherent. Still, here’s my best attempt. The numbers are citations to their original posts. If any of the pro-lifers feel that I have failed to give a correct, neutral statement of their views, I would appreciate hearing their short distillation of their desired punishment and rationale.

    JivinJ: Punishment: none (#18)
    Rationale: It’s legally possible to punish different types of murder differently (#112)

    Tony Palmyra:Punishment: none (#275)
    Rationale: It’s legally possible to punish different types of murder differently. Examples include suicide (#279), or soldiers killing during war (#306).

    Claire (#83): Punishment: Fines
    Side note: Abortion providers should be closed down and also fined

    rob (#353): Punishment: 5 to 10

    Flower (#169): Punishment: Sterilization
    Rationale: Effective deterrent

    Nick (#54): Punishment: Same as under current homicide laws, up to and including life in prison or the death penalty.

    Rationale: Birthed/non-birthed status of the homicide victim is irrelevant.
    Side notes: Nick does not support the death penalty for any murderers, so application of the death penalty here is consistent but not optimal. Prosecution of unintentional miscarriage due to reckless endangerment is logical but unfeasible, and cannot be pursued.

    Theobromophile: Punishment: Same as under current homicide laws. (#317, #338)

    Rationale: Birthed/non-birthed status of the homicide victim is irrelevant (#317)
    Side note/clarification: Theobromophile believes that this would typically result in little to no jail time for women, but lengthy sentences for abortion providers (#341). This is because juries and prosecutors would consider pregnancy a mitigating factor in the abortion-committing woman’s homicide trial; that pregnancy is a mitigating factor might or might not be stated explicitly in the law (#341, #367).

  461. And I’ll take logical inconsistency for $500, Alex.
    By your own admission, Tony, feminist ideals are confined to feminist blogs, and are not held by those outside the blogosphere. And yet we somehow manage to hold the psychiatrists, big Pharma, and parent of boys everywhere in a death-grip.
    The hallmark of anti-feminists is to blame feminism for things that have nothing to do with feminism, things that are often decidedly anti-feminist. If only we had as much influence as y’all think we have (while claiming that we’re irrelevant outside feminist circles).
    Our education system is set up to crank out as many mindless, compliant drones as possible, children who have no critical thinking skills – children who’ll one day make great cogs in the machine. Perhaps you should begin advocating for education reform if you have a problem with the way our children are treated.

  462. Wow, good on ya, Autumn.

    Flower (#169): Punishment: Sterilization
    Rationale: Effective deterrent

    Hah, this sterilization plan might be an incentive for some women to get pregnant and have abortions. Those of us (usually white women) who are told we’re too young to get our tubes tied because we’ll change our minds later.

  463. If any of the pro-lifers feel that I have failed to give a correct, neutral statement of their views, I would appreciate hearing their short distillation of their desired punishment and rationale.

    You failed to note – and perhaps a better ratio was given in the other thread – that I first made a distinction between what is morally murder (e.g. suicide) and what falls within the purview of the elements of commonlaw murder or MPC murder. I also stated that I believed that duress and a reduced capacity to reason from a moral perspective – during the period of an unplanned pregnancy and not generally by virtue of being a woman – justifies a certain magnanimity and compassion towards the woman who aborts, but not towards the medical provider not then under duress. My conclusion was that I saw no reason why a return to the status quo ante, viz, no punishment for the women who aborted pre-Roe, was in any way odd, extraordinary, or contrary to the fact that abortion is, morally speaking, murder.

    I might also note that feminists and pro-choicers in general regard abortion as a mere medical procedure, yet apparently the only one effectively exempt from the normal medical regulatory regime – in this way, both sides regard abortion as sui generis, which is part of the reason why the question is made in bad faith.

  464. Hah, this sterilization plan might be an incentive for some women to get pregnant and have abortions. Those of us (usually white women) who are told we’re too young to get our tubes tied because we’ll change our minds later.

    You left out the part about bringing a lack-of-informed-consent malpractice action against the surgeon when you decide later that you really wanted to have children after all.
    A woman’s prerogative . . .

    As an aside, I support allowing you to sterilize yourselves at the earliest possible opportunity.

  465. What – should I have said “six thousand years”?

    Well, it would have been more accurate than “men have been big meanies for like, a kajillion years and stuff.”

  466. “Since the beginning of time?” Is that better? What, do you want a date?
    For one, religion has most definitely given men a cover to abuse, subjugate and yes, “other” women. Guess that makes it detrimental to society, using your logic re: feminism.

    “I support allowing you to sterilize yourselves at the earliest possible opportunity.”
    Ditto. But I want my abortion first. 🙂

  467. “Since the beginning of time?” Is that better? What, do you want a date?
    For one, religion has most definitely given men a cover to abuse, subjugate and yes, “other” women. Guess that makes it detrimental to society, using your logic re: feminism.

    How about “like, since Raquel Welch was fleeing the dinosaurs.”

    Sarah’s definition of subjugate: “anything I’d rather have done for me.”

    Query: in the traditional paradigm of the ages, where women subsist on the wages of men – could it be said that the women are, in part, subjugating men? I mean, on your logic, you could have gone to a plantation 200 years ago and concluded that the black slaves were subjugating the Colonel Sanders with a mint julep type, no?

    It also appears to me that technology and other modern conveniences have vastly decreased the amount of work required in the domestic sphere – i.e. at the turn of the last century, a load of wash took about 12 to 16 hours to complete. See also: Beating the rug out as opposed to the vacuum cleaner. This would lead me to conclude that a woman given completely to domestic pursuits would have a great deal of available leisure time – one of the historical hallmarks of wealth and privilege. What say you?

  468. Ditto. But I want my abortion first. 🙂

    I suppose this wouldn’t vitiate bluefish a’s declaration that women always get abortions for really compelling reasons, and not “rashly?”

  469. Query: in the traditional paradigm of the ages, where women subsist on the wages of men – could it be said that the women are, in part, subjugating men?

    So nice to see a Warren Farrel fan here of all places.

  470. a couple decades out of hundreds of thousands of years of second-class treatment

    Can anyone else spot the rather obvious falsity of Sarah’s statement? Anyone?

    Can anyone spot the rather obvious ignorance in Tony Palmyra’s question? Anyone?

  471. Can anyone spot the rather obvious ignorance in Tony Palmyra’s question? Anyone?

    I suppose that’s the best you can do when you don’t have Marcotte to ban dissent within the first three posts, huh, ginmar?

  472. Those of us (usually white women) who are told we’re too young to get our tubes tied because we’ll change our minds later.

    SarahMC, I’ve only heard of this recently and have no real-life knowledge or concrete data on this problem. If you have good insurance and can go doctor-shopping, can you find a doctor in a few tries? (I’m not trying to imply that even one refusal to operate is acceptable; just trying to get an idea of the level of difficulty.) Are doctors equally reluctant to perform vasectomies on young men? (I recognize that this is not really on-topic, but it’s gotta be at least as on-topic as a discussion of Tony’s mother.)

    Tony, thank you for the clarification at #518. I will update my notes.

  473. So I take it that you’re falling back on standard trollisms and have no intention of answering the question? Good to know. I guess that’s three seconds of my life I won’t get back.

  474. So I take it that you’re falling back on standard trollisms and have no intention of answering the question? Good to know. I guess that’s three seconds of my life I won’t get back.

    Enlighten me, a lowly troll, in a thread which solicits the opinions of trolls -by definition.

  475. Tony, please note that you’re the only pro-lifer in this thread who has been called a troll.

    Yes, but you should note that I’m also the only one who has been consistently kicking ass and taking names.

  476. Oh please. Can we ban Tony already? I’m tired of his cheezy ‘insults.’

    Shorter Vanessa: “Help, Jill, we have bitten off more than we could ever chew!”

    My posts are divided into two categories: the substantive and the retributive. The latter you perceive as insults – which are, of course, responses to insults. I suggest that if you would like to save yourself from reading my insults, you encourage those who insult me to similarly refrain from insults – that is, unless there are two standards for posting at feministe, in which case I think it is only fair to state plainly on the mainpage that the game is rigged from the beginning.

  477. Sigh. Tony hurt my fee-fees.

    Vanessa – I’ll be frank with you in a way that no one has probably been with you to date. You are a fool. People do not tell you this becuase you parrot back the feminist/Leftist wordplay, but it is true nonetheless. You might save yourself embarassment by retreating from the discussion at this point.

  478. Vanessa – it appears you do much better in the short-form format, beause when you exceed six words per post we wind up with little gems like this, from post 146.

    While I and I’d be willing to guess pretty much every pro-choicer you’d meet am for both of these things,

    Lay off the drugs – theyre turning your mind to mush.

  479. Yes. The ad hominem attack. Such a fine vintage.

    If you think my conversational writing style is incoherent now, wait until I have a cup of coffee. I’ll go all Finnegan’s Wake on your ass.

  480. Lay off the drugs – theyre turning your mind to mush.

    Also, I kind of think when you’re insulting someone’s grammar and have forgotten the apostrophe in they’re, it kind of means the thread is officially over.

  481. Christ, what is this, grade school? Tony’s kicking ass and taking names? What a charitable definition of that he must have.

    Just so you know, Tony, every troll whines that feminists ‘stifle dissent.’ Of course, by dissent they mean “Willful strawmanning of everything feminists say, twisting of words and phrases, and delusions of superiority which they—and you, ala ‘kicking ass’—don’t bother to hide. In fact, such preening as you have been doing is pretty standard.

    I’d also note that you haven’t addressed the question you referred to of mine. How typical.

    And yes, can we ban him? Anybody got the anti-feminist bingo card?

  482. Yes. The ad hominem attack. Such a fine vintage.

    If you think my conversational writing style is incoherent now, wait until I have a cup of coffee. I’ll go all Finnegan’s Wake on your ass.

    You opened the bottle by calling for my banning, dear.

  483. Just so you know, Tony, every troll whines that feminists ’stifle dissent.’ Of course, by dissent they mean “Willful strawmanning of everything feminists say, twisting of words and phrases, and delusions of superiority which they—and you, ala ‘kicking ass’—don’t bother to hide. In fact, such preening as you have been doing is pretty standard.

    I haven’t been stifled – and nor have I claimed to be – but you have called for my stifling.

    As for “strawmanning” (oh, my – ginmar, you know about strawmanning!) – this entire thread, beginning with the question that started the whole magilla, is, in fact, nothing but an inverse strawmanning. Checkmate.

    I have invited you, ginmar, to enlighten me as to my “ignorance” implicit in my above statement. I hope that you should do so soon, that is, before my ability to post in turn is foreclosed.

    Other than this – you are typical of the femblog population, in that you claim “strawmanning” without demonstrating the actual, you know, strawmanning that I have perpetrated. Shorter ginmar: “Hey, no fair.”

  484. Also, I kind of think when you’re insulting someone’s grammar and have forgotten the apostrophe in they’re, it kind of means the thread is officially over.

    One was a missed keystroke, the other, well, it speaks for itself. Whether it speaks in English is another question.

  485. *smack* Oh, thank you Tony, may I have another!

    So Vanessa – what is the point of your contribution? My first contact with you was your calling for my banning, apparently because I answered the Quindlen question too well and too comprehensively. My free time is really too dear to spend playing “You’re it!” with someone who has been at the same University without matriculating for over a decade.

    You’re weak. You bring it weak. Go away.

  486. And the same to you.

    Yeah. That’s why you called for my banning, ’cause I’m getting pushed around here and discrediting that which I support. Sure.

  487. I called for your banning because you said

    Yes, but you should note that I’m also the only one who has been consistently kicking ass and taking names.

    Which is, as I said, fantastically cheesy and deluded.

    Now, I’m just taunting you out of boredom.

    But troll-feeding is bad and I have to clean the kitchen before the baby comes back from grandma’s. So I guess I’ll stop now.

  488. Tony, you’re not aware that women have been discriminated against for centuries? Sorry, that level of ignorance is your problem, not mine. I rather suspect your ignorance is deliberately chosen and thus resistant to anything that might hurt your fee fee.

    We need better trolls.

  489. Tony, you’re not aware that women have been discriminated against for centuries? Sorry, that level of ignorance is your problem, not mine. I rather suspect your ignorance is deliberately chosen and thus resistant to anything that might hurt your fee fee.

    We need better trolls.

    No, you’re actually too uneducated to notice that Sarah stated “for hundreds of thousands of years,” which would put the “second sex status” well before recorded history, and either before or at the genesis of the species homo sapiens itself.

    Try again, idgit.

  490. I called for your banning because you said

    Yes, but you should note that I’m also the only one who has been consistently kicking ass and taking names.

    Which is, as I said, fantastically cheesy and deluded.

    But I am all out of bubblegum.

  491. God, Tony, try to not be an eejit. At the very least you’ve just shown you’re determined to make any slip of the tongue or metaphor into a huge anal battle. Do get over it. You’re tedious.

  492. “that you think women are mental midgets who can’t be trusted to make decisions for themselves.” Could anyone honestly think someone would think this? To accuse someone of that is ridiculous.

    The only exception i can think of would be the “gangsta” sub-culture, but do those modern cavemen (and women) even count?

    and Mickle,
    “The argument being made is that it’s dangerous for the fetus. But that we should prosecute as if the the pregnant woman was a victim of fraud or equally harmed* by the procedure.”

    The fetus is a part of the woman (and of the father). It is an act against humanity, which includes her. It is not the same as murder, but it is considered inhumane by the lawmakers. Seems very clear to me.

  493. Although it does kind of make sense…is this what you think feminists see?

    Well, if you think so, I’d agree – with some, it seems that They Live approximates their perception of the world, yes.

  494. with some, it seems that They Live approximates their perception of the world, yes.

    Okaaay, hehe. Well, I’ve certainly had to fight off accusations of being a sexbot tool of the patriarchy from some extreme radical feminists. (As I told Surix in another thread, feminism is not a monolith.) But I haven’t really ever seen that level of, well, whatever you’d call it on display at Feministe. So I don’t really even know what to say in the face of that level of a strawman.

    Oops. I went over six words and used a bunch of commas. Hope it was coherent enough for you.

  495. Well, I suppose the point that I was making was that ya’ll are so intemperate, so invested in your beliefs, that you posit that a horrible social construct must have proceeded – society itself.

    If you’re actually interested, you could always read some Sherry Ortner (whom i find to be very wrong on several aspects of her theories while still making some interesting points), an ethnologist who argues that the nature of complex society – as opposed to simple foraging society – inherently defines women as inferior.

    Now I happen to disagree with Ortner (her best-known work – “Is female to male as nature is to culture?” – was something she herself questioned later in her career) on several points, but hey, Cultural Anthropology isn’t a monolith, either.

    (This is what I study at the same university for over a decade while failing to matriculate.)

  496. The only exception i can think of would be the “gangsta” sub-culture, but do those modern cavemen (and women) even count?

    God, can’t you contain yourself and troll on thread at a time?

  497. evil fizz, how about keeping it to comments that further the discussion? If you do not agree with something that I posted then give a useful response.

    And I am in no way trolling.

  498. If you’re making racist generalizations, then you’re likely trolling. And honeybunch, I defy you to tell me how to comment, given that you can’t even be bothered to respect my wish that you no longer post on my threads.

  499. I already told you, Tony, you’re tedious. If you’re going to troll, be a good troll. And I’m not a man; I’m female. Get a clue.

  500. Yes, but you should note that I’m also the only one who has been consistently kicking ass and taking names.

    Okay, I officially feel sorry for this guy. At first I thought he was some kind of Unabomber type holed up in the woods with firearms, but c’mon. He’s not dangerous, he’s just sad. Maybe we should just leave him alone.Yeah, dude, you kicked ass. Lots and lots of ass. As much as in Baghdad, almost. And I totally believe you’re a Marine. I’ve never actaully met a Marine dumb enough to self identify with a full name and then act like such an asshole, but video games are getting very realistic and it’s just as good as being there. Keep kicking ass, you’re really showing these (fill in whatever you want). Good for you, you truly are not inadequate. Guys invented roads, and you’re a guy, you too could build a great civilization, that’s just basic logic. You will be worshipped as a god on D&D chat. You totally stuck it to The man! I mean The Woman! Er, The Power Structure. Keep fighting the power.

  501. Oh, so it’s unpatriotic to oppose rape and assault.

    The definition of “patriotism” is not “blind faith in one’s government.”
    I love my country; it’s the government I fear.
    I’m sure you’re just as patriotic (i.e. unquestioning obedience to your country’s administration – your definition) when Democrats are in charge, right? Right?

  502. Well, my opinion of military types is informed by the fact that they have such a penchant for raping and assaulting any woman who dares to cross his path or look at him the wrong way – including their wives. Kids too.

    Basically calling all “military types” rapists, despite no evidence as to an individual, is Patriotic “questioning of government,” Sarah?

    Because I would call it an unfounded slander by someone predisposed to hate those who sacrifice their lives to keep your chin squarely above your neck. You, ma’am, are sick-in-the-head. Sick-in-the-head.

  503. Autumn, I am probably not the right person to ask. I don’t have experience with this myself, but I know a lot of frustrated young women (mid-20’s) who seriously want their tubes tied but can’t find a doctor to do it. Here’s an article for ya.

  504. Oh Jesus, Tony. I sloppily say “hundreds of thousands” rather than “thousands” and instead of focusing on the substance of what I’m saying, you call attention to my technical slip. And yet you’re kicking our asses left and right. :rolls eyes:

  505. Oh Jesus, Tony. I sloppily say “hundreds of thousands” rather than “thousands” and instead of focusing on the substance of what I’m saying, you call attention to my technical slip.

    Remember, SarahMC, type perfectly, or the Tonymonster will get you!

  506. Oh, now you’re a defender of civil liberties, Tony? You wingers work tirelessly to curtail our freedoms while telling us to be grateful that soldiers are willing to fight for our freedom. Curtail civil liberties in order to preserve them! Classic.

  507. Riiiight, Surix, white men never subjugate women. Just the darkies. White men are all so enlightened!

  508. My comment was not racist, in my area there are more white gangstas(/thugs/whatever they call themselves today) than black ones. I assumed you all knew what I meant. Territory pissing, shinny rock wearing, women owning, brutes who you usually see with a stupid expression on their face and a funny walk because otherwise their pants would fall off. Those.

  509. Oh Jesus, Tony. I sloppily say “hundreds of thousands” rather than “thousands” and instead of focusing on the substance of what I’m saying, you call attention to my technical slip. And yet you’re kicking our asses left and right. :rolls eyes:

    No Sarah, I rather think that you are ignorant, and willing to believe anything, no matter how exaggerated, that supports your greivance – including believing that men oppressed women before there were men or women. “Hundreds of thousands” and “perhaps less than ten thousand” are not easily mistakable. It is simply a matter of what you want to believe.

  510. Oh, now you’re a defender of civil liberties, Tony? You wingers work tirelessly to curtail our freedoms while telling us to be grateful that soldiers are willing to fight for our freedom. Curtail civil liberties in order to preserve them! Classic.

    Your statement was one of general application – that military men are monsters who rape and assault women and children at any time. It had nothing to do with any particular charge or charges of misconduct, which I would decide on a case-by-case basis.

    Having had the pleasure and honor of meeting Lt. Ilario Pantano, U.S.M.C., a man falsely accused and convicted in the media or warcrimes before being acquitted by a military jury, I take such matters rather seriously.

  511. Tony’s the sort of guy who, when confronted with a female soldier like me who’s a combat vet and a liberal, says simply that I’m lying about being any of the above. That’s how he thinks he’s kicking our liberal asses. It’s okay for a conservative to insult liberals but it’s not okay for a liberal to look at a documented pattern of behavior and opinions and draw conclusions.

  512. Well, there you have it, Sarah, Tony’s met ONE guy who he claims was falsely accused, and we’re just supposed to suck it up and take his word for it. Never mind the fact that the guy shot unarmed Iraqis and reloaded to continue driling them full of holes. I’m sure Tony thinks that was a justified shooting.

  513. Well, there you have it, Sarah, Tony’s met ONE guy who he claims was falsely accused, and we’re just supposed to suck it up and take his word for it. Never mind the fact that the guy shot unarmed Iraqis and reloaded to continue driling them full of holes. I’m sure Tony thinks that was a justified shooting.

    Lies. And proven to be lies, at the Court Martial.

    You have a hard-on for Marines, ginmar?

  514. Based on one Marine? Wow, Tony, don’t jump to conclusions or anything. I know you’re an insulting asshole, but don’t try too hard or anything. Also, military courts martial are not exactly a great predictor of guilt or innocence. Jeffrey MacDonald was found to be innocent at an Article 32 hearing following an investigation in wihch a Navy Corpsman admited stealing MacDonald’s wallet from the crime scene. Futhermore, you don’t need to be a chopper pilot to be a combat vet. All you need is combat. I take it you’re not military yourself, much less a woman, so let me give you the female veteran’s perspective on sexism in the ranks: It’s there, it’s real, and in the wrong sort of unit it can be overwhelming. Not that I expect you to listen. Now, are you going to try and be less ignorant or what?

  515. Yeah, Tony, chew on this. I was in Iraq the same time as your hero, and worked with a bunch of Marines who had the dubious distinction of calling in air cover over us on our grid coordinates during a battle. There is no front in Iraq. Obviously you’ve never read a newspaper about the subject.

  516. I don’t generally like military types. I admit it. And I’m not ashamed to say it. The key word is “generally.” There are A LOT of Marines where I live (Northern VA); they have mid-century attitudes about women and tend to be racist. That’s been my experience. They all get married right out of high school and get divorced within 5 years. It’s a joke.

    And no, Tony, I’m not ignorant or gullible. I’m curious about your “sophomore in college” question, though. Keep focusing on a technical slip I made early this morning, instead of the FACT that women have been second-class citizens since the dawn of civilization.

  517. Don’t think it wasn’t on purpose, dogface – look, I have a Motion hearing tomorrow morning, so I’m just going to let you gals be for now.

    I answered the question, rather well, which was what this whole thread was about despite failed attempts to insult me.

    Yup, I walked right down main street at high noon.

  518. Ginmar, Tony probably doesn’t think you belong in a uniform, period. Since, you know, you’ve got a vagina and only folks with penises can serve in that capacity.
    Meanwhile, he bemoans the fact that more women don’t serve in the military (and construction, and engineering, etc.). It’s the logical inconsistency again.

  519. Tony, couldja stop wanking all over the thread? It’s kind of pathetic. When you brag that hard people naturally suspect the opposite of what you’re saying.

    Sarah, what I love is the way he refuses to address anything I say, then swaggers off declaring himself the winner. He’s not even a troll; he’s a parody of a troll. NObody’s that self deluded.

  520. ginmar,my dad’s a combat vet too and he’s also unpatriotic and unamerican enough to believe in stupid frills like the constitution, good, and rape and civilian massacres? Bad (plus throwing around cruel generalizations like “typical gung-ho army idiot” ad infinitem). I’ve already warned him that Tony’s on his way here to pelt him with Cheetos, extremely belligerant COOL RANCH Cheetos, he’s almost out of his mind with terror. Good job, Tony. Keep kicking ass, but don’t forget we really need the names for the secret tribunal.

  521. He refuses to address anything any of us says. He’s full of logical inconsistencies and only attacks strawfeminists. Anyone who claims “I win!” during a debate wherein he’s merely pointing out grammatical/technical errors and being sarcastic rather than seriously discussing anything is a loser. He protests too much.

  522. I love it how he’s on the side of a Marine who shot two Iraqis in the back—and reloaded to do it. The guy he’s talking about benefited from post 9/11 frenzy. Wiki him and read the language he uses to describe the incident–and this is Tony’s hero.

    Are we sure he’s old enough to post here? The tactics he’s using remind me of a very young and inexperienced boy, not an adult.

  523. And yet I’m apparently a college sophomore? There are college sophomores frequenting this blog who are more consistent and reality-based than Tony. He’s probably a college junior. Oh wait, no; he has a full-time job that keeps him too busy to have a blog like the rest of us lazy feminists who survive on other people’s money (bwahaha that’s actually what he thinks).

  524. Yup, I walked right down main street at high noon.

    Honey,you owned the town! And then you demolished the town! It was the most impressive thing any of us mere mortals have ever seen. The gals are swooning so much that soon they’ll be begging you to let them in your harem and chain them to the kitchen wall. A silence has settled over the smouldering remains of the town as we all contemplate the enormity of what just happened here. Best of all, nobody has had to repress a desire to reach through the computer screen and pat you gently, reassuringly on the head. It’s been quite a day.

    I couldn’t find the cowboy hat you dropped on Main Street, but I think I can find a Hopalong Cassidy Jr. Cowpoke model on ebay–would you autograph that one for me, please? Huh, huh, wouldja? Wouldja? My hero!

  525. Sarah, you missed the best part of that story, so to speak. Another guy tried to kill his ex and her new boyfriend and failed—but succeeded at killing himself. He was one of the rapists from the Our Guys rape in New Jersey, the son of a cop, and the Army allowed him to join knowing he was a rapist.

  526. Something hit me this morning on my way to work:

    If mothers and fathers have distinctly different roles within families (this is according to Tony), the mothers’ role being provider of 24/7 childcare and the fathers’ being financial provider and occassional disciplinarian, why should fathers ever get custody of children in divorces?
    By Tony’s own admission, a man’s “natural” role is NOT that of childcare provider; a woman’s is. So, for the sake of the children, shouldn’t women always get custody when couples divorce? I mean, this is all about the children’s best interest, isn’t it?
    Or is it about taking whichever course of action makes life most restrictive and joyless for women?

  527. Me: “Ditto. But I want my abortion first. :)”

    Tony: “I suppose this wouldn’t vitiate bluefish a’s declaration that women always get abortions for really compelling reasons, and not “rashly?””

    Great double-standard. You’re allowed to be sarcastic and flip on the subject of women’s rights but nobody’s allowed to be the same way towards you.

  528. Yeah, I let that one go without comment, Sarah, because if he didn’t get that you were making a joke then what’s the point of trying to explain it to him?

    I also didn’t respond to his ridiculous claim that perhaps it’s men who are the oppressed ones since they’ve historically been the ones who financially support women. Sure Tony, women who couldn’t own property, go to school, vote, hold a job or divorce the husbands on whom they were financially dependent were the oppressors. Oh, and if their “subjugated” husbands were forcing them to have sex without their consent? That’s not rape! That’s just a normal part of marriage. Deal with it, oppressor. Now why haven’t you built any aqueducts?

    Glad he’s gone, though he’ll probably come back, because I get the creepy feeling that he’s getting off on all of this.

  529. Now why haven’t you built any aqueducts?

    LOL! Too funny. Another thing is that when Tony (and many men) assess what’s “important” in society, they tend to file endeavors (stereo)typically undertaken by men under “important” and endeavors (stereo)typically undertaken by women under “frivilous” or “unimportant.” Note that aqueducts and buildings (which have historically been designed and built by men) are the real important things humans have done. If your gender wasn’t as involved in building bridges or urban planning, you simply aren’t important. [This attitude reminds me of sports fans who think they’re the shit when their team scores a victory. “WE won! YOU suck!” Even though they didn’t have a hand in the victory personally, they take the credit for it simply because they’re fans.]
    But where would we be without nurses, teachers, and other “pink collar” workers? Or the women who tended to the home/children while their spouses were out building aqueducts?
    Oh, those jobs are typically performed by women, so they’re not necessary to society.

  530. Hi Autumn. It is my understanding that in order to a priori apply the principle of double effect, the conflicts must be equal in gravity. I made up that phrase just now, but what I mean is that there must be two lives involved, or something of equal value. This is in opposition to what you said about the jailer and prisoner. There it is not life vs. life, but “necessary means of survival” (food and water) vs. pleasure (playing solitaire). So I hope that that clears up when it is proper to apply it.

    It is also my understanding that Methotrexate directly kills the embryo (please correct me if I am not understanding the drug correctly). Removing the fallopian tube causes the embryo to die as a secondary, unintended (although not unknown) side effect. One way I like to think about the difference is that although medicine is not this advanced, after the removal of the fallopian tube, it could be possible to extract the embryo and incubate it in some sort of incubating machine (which I don’t think exists yet) or even reimplant it in the mother’s uterus. Now this is not an option yet, but I think that (again, correct me if I’m wrong) if you use Methotrexate, then there is no chance to save the embryo no matter how advanced the technology is. The reason I mention this is to try and show why the intent as well as the action that one takes to obtain the exact same result is important. This gets into philosophy, which I”m fairly weak in. In fact, to be honest, my guess is you won’t buy what I’m saying. But I hope you can at least see that one might think that this distinction is important. It is a tough situation, and I do sympathize greatly with the women who must go through with it. God love you, Autumn.

  531. [Chris Matthews]Ha![/Chris Matthews]

    I suck, and couldn’t hold my own with you confused dames, yet four of you assembled no less than 14 posts of varying lengths jollystomping on me after I bowed out for the evening, you know, to prepare for one of those adult-y man-type jobs.

    I think this might be one of those times when you girls are “emotionally right” but wrong – you know, in actuality.

    I mean, you don’t play into the feminist stereotype or anything . . .

  532. Didn’t realize I was supposed to quit the blog once you left.

    You could, you know, not have made it so apparent that I got your proverbial goat – though by the looks of many feminists, it is a goat better left ungotten . . .

  533. There was just so much material that hadn’t been addressed. So many cracks in your reasoning. So many contradictions and double-standards. Whatev.

    Hmmmm, we all know you hate welfare and disdain those who benefit from it. Do you think banning abortion will help or hurt this “problem?”

  534. Tony, sugar pie, I’m still waiting for your answers to my questions – and the names and links to go with them.

  535. And baby, I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings before by implying that you must not have any facts if you’re so reluctant to give them. Please don’t ignore me!

  536. I bowed out for the evening, you know, to prepare for one of those adult-y man-type jobs

    look, I have a Motion hearing tomorrow morning, so I’m just going to let you gals be for now

    Ooh, a motion hearing! Like no women here (including myself) are lawyers.

  537. Tony, sugar pie, I’m still waiting for your answers to my questions – and the names and links to go with them.

    Check the other thread, son. I just really don’t find your stupid verbal juijitsu “if X was going to be invented, it would have been invented now and there would be a prototype or model on the internets.”

    Since you asked, and to demonstrate exactly how clever you aren’t, the answer to your question is Cornell University Center for Reproductive Medicine and Infertility, under Dr. Hung-Ching Liu is developing an artificial uterus, and the entire field of study is known as “ectogenesis.”

    Have you anything more to say, or will you finally shut your pathetic suck hole?

  538. Ooh, a motion hearing! Like no women here (including myself) are lawyers.

    My my, how did you ever get past the patriarchal Maginot line between you and your chosen law school?

  539. There was just so much material that hadn’t been addressed. So many cracks in your reasoning. So many contradictions and double-standards. Whatev.

    Sarah, why don’t you just dispense with the thin veneer of pretending that you understand and/or can use the capacity to reason and go ahead and say what you really mean:

    I, Tony, am a heretic. It is not so much that I am wrong, else we would have seen you, you know, exploit all of those “cracks” in my reasoning – it is that I just plum don’t believe what you believe despite an abject lack of evidence.

    My favorite nugget of Sarah-specific stupid was the absolute inability to found her ethical claim to “equality” in anything other than “Because I want it,” and then the backpedaling and proffer of theories of “innate moral sense” developed decades after the feminist movement caught its first offensive wind. Still no answer, it would seem, regarding what entitles any bag of bones to some transcendent “rights,” whether I want to recognize them or not. I’ll assume the answer, if given, would be commensurate with the degree of intelligence and learning thus far exhibited by Sarah and posit her answer to be “just a‘cause.”

  540. What’s a Motion hearing? Something you go to defend yourself against rape charges?

    O.K., Sarah, so far we have silly, stupid, and angry. Can you provide evidence as to your ugliness and only vestigial heterosexuality so as to make the feminist stereotype complete?

  541. And baby, I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings before by implying that you must not have any facts if you’re so reluctant to give them. Please don’t ignore me!

    The next time I pay you any mind, I shall neither be as polite, nor as accomodating as I have thus been. Choose your next words carefully,

  542. My my, how did you ever get past the patriarchal Maginot line between you and your chosen law school?

    Well, it was in no small part due to the activism of feminists before I was born who fought to get women the right to higher education, among other rights.

    By the way, here’s a little debate tip for you, from lawyer to lawyer: When claiming that you’re not a misogynist asshole, it detracts from your argument when you refer to a woman’s mouth as a “suck hole.”

  543. I have been posting long, detailed rebuttals to your fantastic claims, and your response has been to either ignore them or come back with some sarcastic remark that dismisses what I’ve said without actually, you know, providing evidence or counter-arguments.

  544. By the way, here’s a little debate tip for you, from lawyer to lawyer: When claiming that you’re not a misogynist asshole, it detracts from your argument when you refer to a woman’s mouth as a “suck hole.”

    You know, unless that “she” has revealed himself to be a “he” – barely a “he,” I am certain, but a “he” nonetheless.

    Try again.

  545. Can you provide evidence as to your ugliness and only vestigial heterosexuality so as to make the feminist stereotype complete?

    Muhaha! Nope, can’t. But keep proving yourself to be the misogynist we all know you are. Insulting women’s appearance when intellectually stumped, check. Suggesting a woman’s a lesbian in an effort to offend, check. I’m not a lesbian, but if I were, what the hell would that have to do with anything? Just ’cause you use it as an insult doesn’t mean I take it as an insult.

    You’re such a hypocrite. You hold yourself to a completely different standard than everyone else. For instance, I only have unrealistic caricatures in mind when I imagine Catholic men, but your off-the-wall perception of feminists is completely accurate. To name one.

  546. I have been posting long, detailed rebuttals to your fantastic claims

    All these devastating posts must be stuck in moderation Sarah, because I haven’t seen them.

  547. Check the other thread, son. I just really don’t find your stupid verbal juijitsu “if X was going to be invented, it would have been invented now and there would be a prototype or model on the internets.”

    Tony, love, I’ve been monitoring the other thread. You never did answer, which is why I had to come over here. I was feeling so abandoned.

    Let me clue you in to two facts about debating on the internet, honey:

    1) Ignoring someone does not make them go away. It just makes you look like you’ve got nothin’. Remember that people can read the entire thread, so glossing over information you don’t want to talk about doesn’t work nearly as well as it does in a face-to-face confrontation.

    2) A request for evidence of an extraordinary claim is not “verbal jujitsu”, nor is it a “gotcha”. We request them from each other all the time – or rather, we include them, anticipating the request. You claimed that artificial wombs and a surgical procedure that was both “safer and simpler than abortion” that could transfer an embryo to said artificial wombs would exist within twenty years. I needed more than your word for that. If something is going to be developed with twenty years, then somebody has to be working on it, and somebody has to be talking about it, if only the developers themselves.

    Since you asked, and to demonstrate exactly how clever you aren’t, the answer to your question is Cornell University Center for Reproductive Medicine and Infertility, under Dr. Hung-Ching Liu is developing an artificial uterus, and the entire field of study is known as “ectogenesis.”

    See, sugar? That’s all you had to do. Of course, having looked her up, I find that sources such as Townhall.com and National Right To Life are much more optimistic about the technology than Popular Science, which I would consider a more neutral source, or even the good doctor herself:

    http://www.popsci.com/popsci/futurebody/dc8d9371b1d75010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

    And it still doesn’t tell me anything about the “safer and simpler than abortion” procedure that’s going to transfer an embryo from a woman’s uterus to an artificial one without killing the embryo outright, as what I get from this article is that the the embryos grown within the artificial wombs are implanted there directly after being fertilized in a petri dish.

    Have you anything more to say, or will you finally shut your pathetic suck hole?

    Aw, don’t be like that snookums.

  548. Why? It’s not like you’ve been paying any attention to what we ACTUALLY say.

    I have, you just don’t like it when I point out how wrong and stupid what you ACTUALLY say is – viz, “all military types” are latent rapists of any given women and children.

    Can someone please send in the real, clean-up hitting feminist heavyweight, if any? I’m getting bored with the mental Liliputians.

  549. Okay, point taken that Seraph is a man, but you managed to display what little you think of women by using “barely a ‘he'” as an insult.

    Planning to respond to the rest of my comment? You know, about how feminism is necessary?

  550. That’s because you’re willfully ignorant.

    Sarah,

    All you have done is repeat womyn’s studies 101 bromides – half truths, mischaracterizations, and affectations, with no legitimate basis in law, history or philosophy. I made quite a point of this by emphasizing your willingness to posit the existence of second class status of women in relation to men before either men or women existed. This is the hallmark of religious belief, and not of a persuasive political ideology.

    You think that your bromides are profound and irrefutable, when, in truth, they are nothing of the sort, and have been refuted both in fact and in practice, as your very movement dies on the vine. Young women generally do not self-identify as feminists anymore and you know this – and this is because they generally get a better deal from the established order, or “patriarchy” than the life of disagreeability, loneliness, and shrewishness that feminism offers.

  551. Check the other thread, son. I just really don’t find your stupid verbal juijitsu “if X was going to be invented, it would have been invented now and there would be a prototype or model on the internets.”

    Tony, darling, I’ve been monitoring the other thread. You never did answer, which is why I had to come over here. I was feeling so abandoned.

    Let me clue you in to two facts about debating on the internet, honey:

    1) Ignoring someone does not make them go away. It just makes you look like you’ve got nothin’. Remember that people can read the entire thread, so glossing over information you don’t want to talk about doesn’t work nearly as well as it does in a face-to-face confrontation.

    2) A request for evidence of an extraordinary claim is not “verbal jujitsu”, nor is it a “gotcha”. We request them from each other all the time – or rather, we include them, anticipating the request. You claimed that artificial wombs and a surgical procedure that was both “safer and simpler than abortion” that could transfer an embryo to said artificial wombs would exist within twenty years. I needed more than your word for that. If something is going to be developed with twenty years, then somebody has to be working on it, and somebody has to be talking about it, if only the developers themselves.

    Since you asked, and to demonstrate exactly how clever you aren’t, the answer to your question is Cornell University Center for Reproductive Medicine and Infertility, under Dr. Hung-Ching Liu is developing an artificial uterus, and the entire field of study is known as “ectogenesis.”

    See, sugar? That’s all you had to do. Of course, having looked her up, I find that sources such as Townhall.com and National Right To Life are much more optimistic about the technology than Popular Science, which I would consider a more neutral source, or even the good doctor herself:

    http://www.popsci.com/popsci/futurebody/dc8d9371b1d75010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

    And it still doesn’t tell me anything about the “safer and simpler than abortion” procedure that’s going to transfer an embryo from a woman’s uterus to an artificial one without killing the embryo outright, as what I get from this article is that the the embryos grown within the artificial wombs are implanted there directly after being fertilized in a petri dish.

    Have you anything more to say, or will you finally shut your pathetic suck hole?

    Aw, don’t be like that snookums.

  552. You know, about how feminism is necessary?

    Well, I would very clearly state that it is neither necessary nor desirable. So there you have it.

    As I have above stated, feminism as applied to careers could only reasonably be said to have helped a very small pool of already affluent, largely white women pursue “careers.” For all others, the wage deflation of men’s work due to competition from women has created a situation where they must work whether it is what they would choose given the option, or whether it is what is best for them and their children.

    Query: Isn’t it fantastic to keep track of your life in six minute increments at the constant direction, and for the benefit of (most likely) an old, white man, rather than to devote your time to the service of a not-too-old white man whom you love? Feminism. Not for the bright.

  553. Are you that stupid? How many fucking times do I have to apologize for my “hundreds of thousands of years” mistake? I acknowledged that I made an error; I’m not arguing with you and yet your’re stuck on that completely irrelevant slip-up.

    Just incase you missed them:

    Something hit me this morning on my way to work:

    If mothers and fathers have distinctly different roles within families (this is according to Tony), the mothers’ role being provider of 24/7 childcare and the fathers’ being financial provider and occassional disciplinarian, why should fathers ever get custody of children in divorces?
    By Tony’s own admission, a man’s “natural” role is NOT that of childcare provider; a woman’s is. So, for the sake of the children, shouldn’t women always get custody when couples divorce? I mean, this is all about the children’s best interest, isn’t it?
    Or is it about taking whichever course of action makes life most restrictive and joyless for women?

    Me: “Ditto. But I want my abortion first. :)”

    Tony: “I suppose this wouldn’t vitiate bluefish a’s declaration that women always get abortions for really compelling reasons, and not “rashly?””

    Great double-standard. You’re allowed to be sarcastic and flip on the subject of women’s rights but nobody’s allowed to be the same way towards you.

    By your own admission, Tony, feminist ideals are confined to feminist blogs, and are not held by those outside the blogosphere. And yet we somehow manage to hold the psychiatrists, big Pharma, and parent of boys everywhere in a death-grip.
    The hallmark of anti-feminists is to blame feminism for things that have nothing to do with feminism, things that are often decidedly anti-feminist. If only we had as much influence as y’all think we have (while claiming that we’re irrelevant outside feminist circles).
    Our education system is set up to crank out as many mindless, compliant drones as possible, children who have no critical thinking skills – children who’ll one day make great cogs in the machine. Perhaps you should begin advocating for education reform if you have a problem with the way our children are treated.

  554. “Isn’t it fantastic to keep track of your life in six minute increments at the constant direction, and for the benefit of (most likely) an old, white man, rather than to devote your time to the service of a not-too-old white man whom you love?”

    Holy shit.

  555. . . .although medicine is not this advanced, after the removal of the fallopian tube, it could be possible to extract the embryo and incubate it in some sort of incubating machine (which I don’t think exists yet). . .if you use Methotrexate, then there is no chance to save the embryo no matter how advanced the technology is.

    I don’t see how the amazing techology that might exist in some futuristic society is relevant to a medical decision made today.

    . . .my guess is you won’t buy what I’m saying. But I hope you can at least see that one might think that this distinction is important.

    I’m sorry, but no, I do not.

    Thank you for taking the time to explain your views. God love you, Nick.

  556. Below are my notes of pro-life answers as to appropriate punishments for abortion, updated from my earlier post, after rereading much of the thread. These are my best attempts at concise but neutral summaries, with citations to the original posts. Normally I would be reluctant to post a revised version of such a long post, but since the last 200+ entries in this thread consist primarily of trolling and troll-feeding, I’m not going to feel too guilty.

    Steve: Punishment: none (answer implys none for doctors or women) (#139).
    Rationale: Number of abortions can be more effectively decreased by provision of contraceptives, baby-drop-offs, etc. . ., than by prohibition of abortion(#139).
    Notes: Steve does identify himself as pro-life (#102).

    JivinJ: Punishment: none (#18)
    Rationale: It’s legally possible to punish different types of murder differently (#112).

    Tony Palmyra: Punishment: none (#275)
    Rationale: Things which are morally murder are not always legally murder. Examples include suicide (#279), or soldiers killing during war (#306). Pregnant women commit abortion under duress, and with a reduced capacity to reason (#519).

    Claire (#83): Punishment: Fines.
    Notes: Abortion providers should be closed down and also fined.

    rob (#353): Punishment: 5 to 10 years.
    Notes: No explanation provided.

    Flower : Punishment: Sterilization (#169).
    Rationale: Effective deterrent (#169).
    Notes: Pro-eugenics (#188).

    Nick (#54): Punishment: Same as under current homicide laws, up to and including life in prison or the death penalty.
    Rationale: Birthed/non-birthed status of the homicide victim is irrelevant.
    Notes: Nick does not support the death penalty for any murderers, so application of the death penalty here is consistent but not optimal. Prosecution of unintentional miscarriage due to reckless behavior is logical but unfeasible, and cannot be pursued.

    Theobromophile: Punishment: Same as under current homicide laws (#317, #338).
    Rationale: Birthed/non-birthed status of the homicide victim is irrelevant (#317).
    My comment: Theobromophile had two clarifications of this principle which I was unable to restate in a simultaneously consistent manner, so I restate them separately.
    Clarification #1: Under this punishment scheme, premediated abortion prosecuted as murder 1 (up to life in prison), abortion in the heat of passion prosecuted as murder 2 (8-25 years) (#271).
    Clarification #2: Under this punishment scheme, women typically get little to no jail time, but abortion providers receive lengthy sentences (#341). This is because juries and prosecutors consider pregnancy a mitigating factor in the aborting woman’s homicide trial; this might or might not be stated explicitly in the law (#341, #349, #367). Appropriate punishments may be counseling, probation, and community service (#347).

  557. “Isn’t it fantastic to keep track of your life in six minute increments at the constant direction, and for the benefit of (most likely) an old, white man, rather than to devote your time to the service of a not-too-old white man whom you love?”

    Holy shit.

    Yeah, SarahMC, I’ve been waiting to respond to this, but I’m just now able to get onto Feministe after their server problem or whatever. So, here goes.

    To repeat Tony’s question:

    Query: Isn’t it fantastic to keep track of your life in six minute increments at the constant direction, and for the benefit of (most likely) an old, white man, rather than to devote your time to the service of a not-too-old white man whom you love? Feminism. Not for the bright.

    HA! This is the best you’ve got? Jesus, Tony. You’re joking, right? Clearly, if not for feminism, I would not be a lawyer today. Since you can’t possibly argue with that (that feminism was and is necessary for women to obtain equal rights in a patriarchy), your response is that I must not be too bright to prefer my current career over being a servant for “a man whom I love.” Tell me Tony, which would you prefer?

    To answer your query, HELL YES it’s fantastic that I can get paid for doing something I love instead of having no choice but to be a maid, cook, baby incubator, and sexbot for a man in exchange for room & board. And no, my boss isn’t an old white man, she’s a not-too-old woman, and her boss (we call her “Cabinet Secretary” around the office) is also a not-too-old woman.

    The man whom I love happens to make less money than I do (rebutting another one of your previous claims) and doesn’t expect me to “serve” him. And if our relationship ever goes south, I’ll be able to just walk away because I have financial independence. And that gives him the comfort of knowing that I’m with him because I want to be, not because I have to be.

  558. wow.

    TONY sez:
    Query: Isn’t it fantastic to keep track of your life in six minute increments at the constant direction, and for the benefit of (most likely) an old, white man, rather than to devote your time to the service of a not-too-old white man whom you love? Feminism. Not for the bright.

    so, as women, this is our choice? serve “the man” or serve your man, as long as women are in servitude. thank you for illustrating why feminism is neccessary!
    and what of a woman who works for herself in a field she loves? what about the woman who contributes equally to her relationship and is *gasp* and equal partner with her significant, chosen other? that is what feminism has helped me achieve and i, for one, am grateful for it.

    (evil totems and pre-born babies, oh my!)

  559. HA! This is the best you’ve got? Jesus, Tony. You’re joking, right? Clearly, if not for feminism, I would not be a lawyer today. Since you can’t possibly argue with that (that feminism was and is necessary for women to obtain equal rights in a patriarchy), your response is that I must not be too bright to prefer my current career over being a servant for “a man whom I love.” Tell me Tony, which would you prefer?

    Yes, because if there is one thing that the Nation needs, it is double the baseline number of lawyers. Wonderful, really wonderful.

    Look, RR, I did not propose that you should “serve” a man whom you love – I used the word because that is the only way you and others are willing to conceive of such a relationship – a strawrelationship, or strawmarriage, to turn a phrase. I do not now, nor have I ever conceived of domestic life in this way, and imputing such doesn’t really accomplish anything other than confirm to yourself that I am an awful, misogynist meanie.

    And you may have a terrific time doing some interesting job, but it simply betrays your class blindness, because the majority of people who work do so in what the law still refers to as a “Master and Servant” relationship. Ergo, the majority of women now compelled to work for economic reasons due to wage deflation (thanks, girls!) have traded service to a husband (again, your view) for service to another “Master”, more than likely a man as well. This is, perhaps, one of the least acknowledged flaws in feminism, an error which is fundamental to so much of the feminist myth, built largely upon a survey of 200 self-selected, privileged, majority – if not exclusively – white, Protestant women from the New England/Mid Atlantic region.

  560. so what do you suggest, TONY? according to you (a man) feminism is failing all women except for privileged, white upper middle-class women. feminism is also, according to you, directly responsible for a multitude of sins extending from the abuse you suffered at the hands of your mother to nationwide wage deflation.
    so what do you recommend? since you seem to be an expert on pregnancy (pregnancy complications don’t exist), economics (thanks girls for deflating those wages!) to law (the difference between moral murder and legal murder) maybe you would have some suggestions regarding how women should think, act and behave in both the public sphere and private sphere.

    so sweetie, honey, baby, kittyface, sugar, dear- please enlighten us, TONY, since you are such an expert on everything (including women)- what should women of this day and age strive for? what should we aspire to be? how should we live our lives?

  561. and those are all great movies, TONY. based on fiction.
    since you will never be pregnant, you will never understand the complex emotions surrounding having the prospect of something growing inside you. show some respect to those who will and do.

  562. “I got stuck in a traffic jam this morning, thanks to you WOMEN who got the bright idea to learn to drive and got jobs! Huff, puff!”

  563. The next time I pay you any mind, I shall neither be as polite, nor as accomodating as I have thus been. Choose your next words carefully,

    BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

    You’re threatening me? Over the internet?

    HAAAA!

    I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I just…gimme a minute, I

    AHHHHH HA HA HA HA HA!

    Okay, I’m back. (hee!)

    I’m sorry, Tony, you may be a very successful bully in a face-to-face meeting, but you’re not very intimidating on the other side of a computer screen.

    That’s why you’re still at this a week later, isn’t it? Because no matter how much you bluster, how much you call them stupid or declare victory, the wimmins just won’t sit down and shut up for you.

    Let me tell you how the world works, sugar plum:

    Coming into a feminist internet forum and declaring that feminism is not only unnecessary, but an actual evil conspiracy against men, doesn’t make you some sort of brave, rebellious outlaw. It makes you obnoxious. And not only obnoxious but pointless: philosophical and political opponents do post at this site, and while they may not exactly be treated politely, they’re answered in full and neither threatened with banning nor called trolls (much). That’s because their arguments have actual substance, something yours lack. Instead, you just try to bully everyone into submission, and let me tell you something: feminists are damn hard to bully. As you’re discovering.

    Personally, I don’t know why they haven’t banned you yet, unless it’s to humiliate other opponents by pointing at you and saying: “See? He’s the logical conclusion of your side of the argument.”

  564. y’all.
    i think TONY might be a tad retro.
    he might be from that rose-colored glasses version of the fifties wherein middle-aged white men wax reminiscient about how everyone knew the value of a dollar, children were seen but not heard, wives always had dinner on the table every night with silence and a smile, every baby born was a healthy baby born into a nuclear family, divorce was a dirty word and always the wives’ fault for not keeping a neat enough house, a man could refer to his secretary as “sweetie” and swat her on the ass whenever he damn well felt like it, queers did not exist or at least they had the decency to do their dirty, filthy business cloaked in secrecy and shame and black people kept to their own.

  565. Let me add to bluefish’s list of 1950’s mythology:
    Nobody had problems before women and racial minorities got uppity. There was no violence or adultery before the 1960’s. Nobody used anyone else, nobody stole, nobody so much as cried. Child abuse was non-existant.

  566. so sweetie, honey, baby, kittyface, sugar, dear- please enlighten us, TONY, since you are such an expert on everything (including women)- what should women of this day and age strive for? what should we aspire to be? how should we live our lives?

    Keep calling me sugar and I just might be yours forever.

    You all remind me so much of Fredo – “I can do things. I’m smaat! Not like everyone says, like dumb, I smaat – and I want respect.”

    As to the substance of your question – take the chips off of your shoulder and let yourselves breathe. Take a drink – something stronger than wine, and relax. Now, think of what makes you really, really happy – not what you think the patriarchy is trying to tell you that you need to do to be happy, or what you think you could do that would make the patriarchy upset – but, you know, what would make you not blissfully happy, but happy given the relative resources and time that each of us has – give or take – on this here earth.

    One idea to start – instead of hating men who are dead and buried for alleged crimes against gender, how about finding one that, you know, you love and respect and admire? That might make you happy. One thing it is best not to do – well, to project all of the crimes of all of those dead men upon his head. Another thing that might make you happy – if he offers to give you things because he wants you to have them, it would be just fine to accept them in good humor. Out of this, you just might find, sort of in conformity with several thousand years of human experience (you know, when the wandering, cannibalism and human sacrifice began to subside and high art and culture developed) that you might want to divide the tasks of life into two columns according to your relative abilities and talents, and to pool the benefits and burdens, and to do, more or less, what people have always done and continue to do despite the best efforts of feminism. (the white and privileged call this “opting out,” apparently)

    But on no account do I find your demand that life be a la carte for women (as it has never been for men) in any way compelling or, given the effort, discord, and misery required to turn the established order of the world on its ear even the least bit desirable.

    One could critique the established order on the basis that women’s talents are not adequately expressed in the caricature or domestic life that you attribute to my views, however, this does not compel the only remedy that you are prepared to administer. What I see, but you cannot, is that you are children with a hammer, seeing none but nails that need hammerin.’

  567. if i may continue in this vein:

    abortions never happened except to slatterns who hung around shady men in bars and alas, they had it coming! an occasional black eye was the price you paid for having a roof over your head, although meals, laundry, daily housework, childcare and sex on demand were also included in the cost of keeping a roof over head, but if you were a woman no one really asked your opinion anyway. girls were allowed to excel at school, but not enough so that they would get any ideas of going to college and also not enough to intimidate the boys around them. bullying was never a problem- young men needed to learn to stand up for themselves, they didn’t want anybody thinking they were sissified or faggish because then they would deserve it.
    child abuse didn’t exist- they, like mother, had to pay a price for keeping a roof over their heads.*

    *just for the humor or irony-impaired (i’m looking in your direction, TONY), this is satire. there’s some truth in the afore-mentioned passage, but there are also exaggerations to make a larger point.

  568. As long as you don’t cross the line and make a joke about the “pre-born,” you’re good.

  569. How hilarious to be lectured on “class blindness” by a guy who whines about not getting thank you cards from the poor Appalachian families he supports with his tax dollars. Spare me.

    One idea to start – instead of hating men who are dead and buried for alleged crimes against gender, how about finding one that, you know, you love and respect and admire? That might make you happy. One thing it is best not to do – well, to project all of the crimes of all of those dead men upon his head.

    This is also hilarious. Project much, Tony? I don’t hate men. You’re the one who blames feminism (a monolithic strawfeminism that you’ve dreamt up in your own head) for causing so many of society’s ills all because you had a terrible mother who abused you. I’m honestly sorry that you had an abusive childhood, but why not take your own advice and not project all the crimes of your mother upon the head of every feminist you encounter?

  570. paraphrasing TONY
    women are children with a hammer who are only looking at nails to be hammered and are only good at things that are domestic.

    so, in other words, feminists don’t see the big picture and need to find a man and head back to the domestic sphere for their own good and good of those around them.

    that’s how i read it. and before you call me stupid or simple again, at least i’m trying to figure out what you mean.

    when do evil totems enter into the coversation?

  571. Argh, I’m in moderation.

    To paraphrase: Tony has totally convinced me that there are already more than enough lawyers in the world, so I’m going to quit my job and go home to bake cookies, leaving all that hard thinking stuff to the men.

    Just kidding!

  572. My apologies for not following this thread closer. Tony, you’re being rude to our regular commenters, and you’re being disrespectful of this space. So, bye bye.

  573. FYI, “closer”: is a comparative adjective, not and adverb.

    Yeah, people pay attention to you because you’re really, really smart, and it has nothing to do with being the freak show of the World’s only living visually non-repugnant Feminist. Your work is derivative and banal. Life has a way of sifting out the meritless, as you will soon discover.

    And we both know that on any given Saturday night in Manhattan – or any other city – for that matter, you fade into the background among the competition.

    Have a nice life bringing abortion to the world like some self-important Prometheus.

  574. I let that comment through only for a laugh.

    Yes, I misused the word closer. And yes, I am sure that people only read Feministe because I am not totally hideous-looking, and there is no other not-totally-hideous-looking feminist out there. (Don’t you think if that were the case, they’d just read my Flickr photo page instead?).

    If my work is derivative and banal, fine. If life sifts out the meritless, fine (sadly, I don’t think that’s true, as a quick look at our country’s president will demonstrate, but ok). But I think I’m doing pretty well so far — unless you suspect that I only got into law school and I only got a job because I sent them bikini pics or something.

    As for my fading into the background of much hotter chicks, that is certainly true. Luckily, I don’t go home crying because boys don’t like me. And I’m also lucky enough to know more than a few boys who like girls for reasons other than physical appearance.

    I’m sure I will have a very nice life advocating for reproductive justice. Good luck, Tony, finding someone who’s willing to put up with your bitter, shallow, self-important and hateful worldview. And good luck finding other feminist blogs to troll.

  575. I wish I had time to read all 660 comments, but that is a challenge beyond me.

    I’ll risk this comment being deleted by first most saying that I am consider myself Pro-Life.

    You raised a very good and thoughtful question. So much that I have needed this much time to think of how I would respond. I am not looking to start a debate or get into any arguments though. I’ll post what my response would be on my own blog. I hope I do as much justice with a response as you did with question.

  576. Guys, I don’t usually say things like this about trolls, but back off. This guy Tony or Alex or whatever his real name is, is showing signs of severe mental illness. His life history suggests a strong potential for a PTSD triggering episode or episodes, and there is clear evidence of disordered thinking and paranoia leading one to suspect that he has built a frame of delusions around the subject of feminism, so no matter what anyone says on the subject, it will feed his delusions. It’s not at all uncommon for exposure, especially repeated exposure, to traumatic events to open up vulnerabilities to schizophrenia and other mental illnesses that exhibit similar symptoms.

    Of course, I wouldn’t diagnose over the internet, but based on what he has written here and elsewhere, I strongly suggest that Mr. Palmyra get assessed for mental illness. And we should leave the poor guy alone.

  577. What are you really trying to convince pro-lifers of? That we are inconsistent on our own views?
    On one hand if we threw women in jail we’d be monsters that hate woman, and you’d object saying we’re punishing a woman for her reproductive choice. On the other hand if we consider abortion murder then not putting the woman in jail or giving her the death penalty would be hypocritical. Considering abortion is legally any one that had an abortion before a ban on abortion could not be deemed of committing a crime. We believe in helping women overcome guilt, and in empowering women to make the right decision. Real Pro-Lifers are more concerned about getting children adopted, (I just turned 18, so I’m in no position to adopt a child, but once I can I plan to), helping women financially to support a child and pay her medical fees. I apologize for all the people that are only Pro-Life ever 4 years when they elect a President. but please realize that we aren’t the group concerned with punishing people. We don’t think of women as small-brained, however there are some pressures that they can’t ALL deal with. There are women forced into situations like abortion through the pressure of their husbands, boyfriends, families, friends and even society as a whole. I believe that Pro-Choice is a distorted view of feminism, that puts pressure on women to get abortions. If you choose a child over your career that makes you a powerful women. If you choose to stay home and take care of children and the house while your husband makes a living that makes you a powerful women, seriously we men took the easier of two jobs. well this is getting a little of subject so back to the real argument. There is nothing non-consistent about not wanting to kill women as a punishment for abortion. Would any advocate of peace want to go and kill every soldier (on both sides) that killed someone else? No you would simply want the war to end, and take the people who started the war out of office. We want abortion to end, and to put the Abortion industry out of business. We put murders in jail because they’re a threat to society, but we can’t even catch them all. If abortion we’re illegal there’s no way we could catch and convict every woman who performed an abortion on herself. We could however catch the surgeons who illegally perform abortions and put them in jail or execute them.

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