This Elaborate Dance

35 thoughts on This Elaborate Dance

1. Thank you so much for writing about this!

   It’s very timely, because I just finished reading Wendy’s book recently, and it was really excellent. In it, she talked about her time at weight watchers and her experience with weight loss too, and even about her starting poundy. It was an excellent read, and I think you’re right, she’s got some really healthy and intelligent things to say about her body.

2. I agree with you and with her.

   I don’t personally like Weight Watchers because I think it’s more important to learn actual nutrition than to count points. But… as a diet, it really is the most healthy. The points aren’t perfect, but they’re pretty nutritious. And it really does teach people to change their habits, not to eat their packaged foods (like NutriSystem or SlimFast). I’ve known lots of people who have changed from unhealthy eating habits (gorging on fastfood, snackfoods, and otherwise unhealthy foods) to eating balanced meals (more fresh fruit and veggies, variety of protein and iron, less sodium, less oil, etc) from WW.

   And exercise, please. I think we have an exercise-phobic culture. Sure, a few people take it to the extreme, but overall, we need to encourage more exercise. We need to build communities with paths and safe walking spots. We need employers and health insurance companies to pay for gym memberships. We need more and better parks – everywhere!

   But there is definitely a point, with women especially, when our beauty routines become and “third shift” and we spend so much time and energy on them that we don’t have anything left over for other passions. I just recently read a study that suggested that people can diet or budget effectively, but not both at the same time. The sense of deprivation is too strong and people who maintain one often fail at the other.

   And as feminists we have to recognize these things: that there is strong social pressure on women to fit an unrealistic beauty standard, and the energy many women spend on trying to conform to that beauty standard is a form of control because it limits their ability to do other things, like fight the power!

3. As someone who’s frequently gotten flamed on these threads because I dare mention that I lost 32 pounds with Weight Watchers* and kept it off (for the most part — knee surgery and exercise are not compatible), I appreciate that at least some people understand that I didn’t do it out of self-hatred or a need to conform to the most restrictive image of femininity. I didn’t even do it to get a man — my now-husband and I had been together for two years before I did WW for the final time that got me to Lifetime status.

   I lost weight because I couldn’t go up a flight of stairs without having to stop and rest. I lost weight because I didn’t like that I was 5’2″ and wearing a size 14. I changed my diet — yes, with Weight Watchers — because it turns out that too much fat and not enough water or fiber is very, very bad for my Irritable Bowel Syndrome.

   And, yes, I like the way I look now. I’m flabbier than I was before my knee surgery, because I haven’t gotten back to my 3-times-a-week gym schedule, but I look at lot better at 138 pounds than I did at 162 pounds. I get really, really, REALLY tired of feeling like I have to apologize for losing weight in a healthy way.

   Diets don’t work long-term. CHANGING your diet does work long-term.

   * Since I’m sure someone will remember it and throw it in my face, yes, I work for Weight Watchers for four hours a week and receive the princely sum of $80.00 after taxes every two weeks. I like helping people improve their self-esteem and learn a healthier way of living. If it’s a bad thing for us to support one of our members as she loses 60 pounds and starts to walk marathons at the age of 50, well, I guess I’ll just have to be bad.

4. Oh, and for really full disclosure, it turns out that my husband went to high school with Wendy McClure. She probably wouldn’t recognize him, though — he lost 60 pounds with healthy eating and exercise and has kept it off for 9 years.

5. Pingback: Fighting the Power while Fighting the Fat | Elaine Vigneault’s Diary

6. I find this kind of interesting right now, because I’m getting complimented on the weight I’ve lost recently – of course, nobody wants to hear that I’ve lost it because I’m stressed out and have started smoking, they’re just fixated on the skinny. Sorry – it just touched a nerve.

7. Developing healthier eating habits and exercising regularly are things that I struggle with. I want to be healthier, but there is a part of me that wants to lose weight, and I feel guilty about that. On a rational level, I know that changing my body doesn’t have to mean that I have to pass judgment on other people’s bodies, particularly other women’s bodies. But I can’t pretend there’s no relationship between my own desire to lose weight and the way that fat women are treated. I am partially motivated by fear of fat because I am somewhat “overweight” now, and my weight has crept up through my early 20s.

   Part of the problem for me is that I don’t like going to the gym. I feel good after a workout, it helps with depression and anxiety, I feel a sense of accomplishment, especially when I can run for longer or lift more weight. There is something missing. I don’t feel connected to my body when I’m running on the treadmill (plugged into my ipod, watching television). There’s no pleasure in the activity itself. I think this is a serious problem with the whole gym/fitness culture. It’s harder to keep doing something if it feels like a chore. This has also been an issue for me in terms of developing healthy eating habits. I generally don’t like to cook, especially since I’m mostly cooking for one person. It’s easy to eat junk. What is helping is taking a more holistic approach – thinking about where my food comes from, and what went into producing it (environmental impact, labour standards, etc). It certainly makes the processed stuff less appealing.

8. I don’t think it’s possible for most people to embark on a weight-loss program (or one that involves healthy eating and active living with the side effect of weight loss) with the sole motive of health. It’s not universal, but people frequently do change shape somewhat when they start taking spin classes or walking to work. Sometimes it’s temporary and quick; sometimes it’s gradual and a little more lasting. Regardless, in my experience and in most accounts I’ve heard, the payoff is immediate and enormous. Everyone gives you compliments and attention, from complete strangers to family members. People you didn’t even know hated your body tell you how fantastic you look now. This is true even for people who weren’t particularly large; fifteen fewer pounds and you’re a movie star. Sometimes even just the knowledge that someone is trying some sort of exercise/diet routine will bring on the shower of social approval.

9. I am constitutionally incapable of not caring about my appearance or my body, and similarly incapable of not locating a large part of my self-esteem and happiness in same.

   I eat a healthy diet, exercise, and take three different medications for an endocrine disorder (including one fun fun injectable!) and I’m still obese according to BMI figures.

   Oddly enough, my cholesterol numbers are excellent – better than my skinny husband’s and all my health indicators are good – except I’m fat and have a crap metabolism. No big problem, right? Except not a single day goes by that I’m not overwhelmed with self-loathing at least once. I hate buying clothes. I hate catching sight of myself in windows. I hate the horrible insults about fat people that I hear every damned day and I hate the cultural assumption that our bodies are plastic and can be changed at will.

   I have no problem with people who’ve lost weight, or are skinny naturally or who exercise more than I do (I missed the “exercise feels good” memo), I just wish it weren’t all so important. I wish it took up way less space in my head and in our culture. No idea how to do that, though.

10. Developing healthier eating habits and exercising regularly are things that I struggle with. I want to be healthier, but there is a part of me that wants to lose weight, and I feel guilty about that.

    I’m sure I’ll get bashed for this, but I think that’s part of how the “fat acceptance” movement has developed (at least from the online posts I’ve seen). For a lot of people, it’s not about accepting that everyone has a different body type that they may or may not be able to change, it’s about deciding that fat people are automatically more virtuous than thin people. The thinking didn’t change at all, just the polarity between who’s “good” and who’s “bad.”

    Not to mention that, in a weird way, part of the pressure not to lose weight is the same pressure that women get for doing anything that benefits themselves and not others. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard people tell me that their friends and family say that they’re “selfish” for going to the gym or trying to change the way they and their families eat. In this society, you’re allowed to lose weight if you do it for other people, but God forbid a woman should do it for herself and her own reasons.

11. People you didn’t even know hated your body tell you how fantastic you look now.

    Every time someone asks me if I’ve lost weight since going vegetarian and tells me I look great, I am tempted to say “Oh, I didn’t before?”

    I didn’t try to lose weight. Yeah, I’m probably healthier now, and I do like the subtle difference in my body shape, but I always resent the implication that something was wrong before.

12. Mnemosyne, I think that’s a pretty unfair statement. I don’t think I’ve ever seen (online or IRL) a fat person suggest that being fat is better than not being fat, or that fat people are more virtuous than thin people. I have really only ever seen fat activists argue that being fat doesn’t make you less virtuous than being thin, or unworthy of being treated with dignity and respect. One aspect of that is certainly pointing out that assumptions made about the health, lifestyle, and fitness of fat people are unfair. Usually this is met with derision and name-calling, even on feminist blogs.

    Most of the fat activists I’ve encountered promote a health at every size approach to fitness. If you have examples of fat activists promoting fat as more virtuous, I’d like to see them. I suspect you don’t have any. I think this is more an indication of you falling into the trap of polarized thinking (i.e., since society promotes thinness, fat activists are promoting fatness), as opposed to a nuanced reading of the fat acceptance movement.

    My own feelings of guilt and shame about wanting to change my body are only peripherally related to fat acceptance. I think many feminist women feel guilty and ashamed for wanting to lose weight, staying in relationships with partners (especially men) who treat us badly, and all the other things that women do that are mandated by our patriarchal society. Which is why I have a hard time with the idea that women are working out/changing their eating habits solely for themselves. None of us are immune to the body-hating messages we get from the media and society in general, or the idea that women’s role is to be ornamental. In some ways working out is about carving out time for myself, about learning to reconnect with my body, a way of managing stress, anxiety and depression. Changing my eating habits is partially about the environmental impact of the food that I eat, as well as being healthier. But I’d be lying if I said I that changing my lifestyle wasn’t also about being thinner.

    The external messages I get about my body are almost exclusively about being thinner (sometimes being thinner and healthier, but usually just thinner). The internal stuff is more complicated because of what I know about body image, the media, fatphobia, and so on. For a long time I resisted working out or changing my eating habits because I didn’t want to be changing in order to lose weight. I don’t want to buy into a system that teaches girls and women to hate themselves (boys and men too!), and that appearance is always more important that intelligence or kindness. I’ve given up on trying to achieve that kind of political purity. Now I struggle to remember that being fitter and eating better are the important goals. The weight loss can be there, but not as the primary objective.

13. I am bad at writing. I tend to get my verb tenses mixed up all the time, and my thinking/speaking style tends to be jumbled up stream-of-consciousness, so my writing style, unless I actively work at it, tends to be the same.

    Complete strangers do not walk up to me on the street to menition my writing skills. Teachers, when they critize, make sure that it is effective critism, something that will help me improve this, or point out dropped verb tenses here. Even asshole trolls don’t just say LOL UR RITING SUXS, they helpful point out that some word was spelt wrong. I am not told that I am lazy, or unintelligent for having poor writing skills.

    I am also fat. This, unlike writing, is remarked upon by complete strangers, friends, and family, and not normally in constructive or helpful fashions. I am ignored by sales clerks, talked about loudly at in public, and am glared at when I eat. Trolls, who have not even seen my picture call me fat, and people think me lazy, stupid, and lack self-control because I am fat.

    The point, here is this: yes, I should exercise more (probably). Yet, I should also work on my writing skills so that they are stronger. Why is one okay for public commentary, and the other ignored?

14. I was conceived because my mother was in Weight Watchers and nobody told her you needed to get a diaphram refitted when you loose weight!

    Thanks Weight Watchers!

15. I agree with Debbie, I think Mnemosyne’s characterization is inaccurate and obviously still charred from previous flamings.

    Healthy at any size is just that – healthy at any size!

    I think it is great that people are becoming more aware about eating in a more healthful fashion, but the goal should be health not weight loss.

    That is my (big) bottom line.

16. I used to be smug about all this stuff. I was a little “overweight” (according to those BMI charts) for a long time, and liked my curves. I absolutely refused to diet or do any exercise for any reason but that I enjoyed it (not that often) or that I needed to get from one place to another. And I felt superior to other women. I looked down on any woman who talked about her weight or her body, or who chose her food on the basis of anything but taste. If a dining companion declined dessert with that standard self-deprecating remark about her thighs, I made sure to order the most rich chocolate dessert in order to draw a clear line of demarcation between us. Message I was trying to send other people (mostly men?): I am not like her. I am not your standard vain, conformist, self-loathing, feminine woman. We’ve talked a lot on this blog about how some women react to the patriarchy by devaluing much of what is associated with women, and I was a clear example of that.

    About a decade of adulthood of this attitude later, I had gradually put on weight. I crept just past the “obese” BMI. I looked at myself in the mirror and no longer liked the way I looked. I was starting to think my eating and exercise habits were unhealthy. So I went on the first diet of my life. Having not been through the yo-yo cycle before, it was quickly very successful for me. I lost 30 pounds over the course of about six months (which didn’t get me out of the overweight range, but did put me back in a body I felt was more “me”). Wow, was this ever a change for me. I was fixated on my body and on food. I started looking at other women and comparing our sizes, something that had never occured to me to do before.

    I had been hoping to lose another 15-20 pounds, but around this time my life fell apart. My marriage hit a serious rocky place, and my academic advisor started pointing out my lack of work. The marital problems I can’t really blame on the diet, but I will admit the mental space allotted to my body, diet, and exercise had impacted my academic work significantly. I stopped dieting. But I didn’t lose the mindset, the thinking of food, the judging my body and that of others. It has really opened my eyes to the way the majority of women live their lives, and combined with some maturity and self-analysis has made me much, much less judgmental of women who obsess, or even just care, about their bodies.

    Now that I’m 5 months pregnant and gaining weight fast (most likely due to the fact that I lost weight so recently) there’s all sorts of other body image issues coming into play. But body image in pregnancy is a post onto itself.

17. I’ve been trying to lose a little weight recently, mostly because last fall I actually had money for the first time in about ten years (no shit) so I went out and bought myself a whole new wardrobe, you know, stuff that wasn’t threadbare, ill-fitting, and coming out at the heels. Unfortunately, I was still “skinny” from recovering from a rotator cuff injury which had me on appetite-killing anti-inflammatory drugs for months, and now that I’ve gained back some fat and a whole whack of muscle mass, some of my clothes no longer fit. Argh.

    Even when I’m super-fit I still wind up looking like I’m 50 lbs overweight (even when I’m not overweight at all), because I’m short-waisted, have big boobs, and carry a lot of muscle on my rear end. (The CP makes me walk funny, so it’s hypertrophy.) I also seem to be unable to lose that last bit of potbelly, no matter what I do. At one point, I was distance running and I still looked like a chubby-chaser’s pinup. That’s sort of hard to deal with. I have to shout down the nagging little voice in my head that says, “Gaw, you’re fat!”

    IBTP, personally…

18. Mnemosyne, I think that’s a pretty unfair statement. I don’t think I’ve ever seen (online or IRL) a fat person suggest that being fat is better than not being fat, or that fat people are more virtuous than thin people.

    I don’t think you’ve been here very long, then, because a lot of the weight-related threads here have frequently devolved into self-described fat people insisting that thin people all have eating disorders. At one point, I had to decide not to even talk about the fact that I’d lost weight because everyone assumed that because I had lost weight, I must be judging them if they hadn’t, and so therefore I was a bad person for judging them.

    Oh, and don’t even mention that some people can lose weight and keep it off — you will be accused of being a liar and a fraud because everyone “knows” that it’s absolutely impossible because a statistic from 30 years ago says that 95% of the people who diet gain the weight back. Which is true — if you go on a diet, lose weight, and then go back to the way you were eating before the diet, you’ll gain the weight back. Why this seems to surprise people, I have no idea.

    I think many feminist women feel guilty and ashamed for wanting to lose weight, staying in relationships with partners (especially men) who treat us badly, and all the other things that women do that are mandated by our patriarchal society. Which is why I have a hard time with the idea that women are working out/changing their eating habits solely for themselves.

    Yes, I know, I’ve had many people tell me I should feel guilty for getting married, even though my husband is a wonderful man who treats me 100% as an equal. Apparently, my marriage alone set the cause of feminism back by 50 years. Again, I am not imagining that people have said this to me online — people have said this to me.

    Are most women exercising and/or losing weight for themselves? Probably not, which is why they gain the weight back. But if you think that losing weight and being thin is a ticket to happiness, you are in for a major disillusionment when all of the people who were pressuring you to lose weight and exercise (“for your health”) suddenly do a 180 and start complaining about how boring you are now and how you look “too thin” and need to gain the weight back … at least to the point where they can start telling you again that you’re “too fat” so you can start the whole cycle over again.

    Not to mention the significant others who become convinced that you’re having an affair or are planning to leave them and the only way you can prove that you’re not is to gain the weight back … which allows them to once again start complaining that you’ve “let yourself go.”

    Losing weight will not solve a single problem that you already have even though the media tries to tell us that our weight is the problem and dieting is the solution. Ironically, I think that’s easier to understand once you’ve lost weight and discovered that none of your underlying issues (bad job, bad relationships) have magically fixed themselves. We have a lot of magical thinking wound up in our ideas about weight loss, which is part of what makes them even more insidious. If you’re depressed and lose weight, you will still be depressed. Because you weren’t depressed because you were heavy, you were heavy because you were depressed. Fixing the symptom will do nothing for the underlying problem and you will gain the weight back. Guaranteed.

19. I stopped dieting. But I didn’t lose the mindset, the thinking of food, the judging my body and that of others. It has really opened my eyes to the way the majority of women live their lives, and combined with some maturity and self-analysis has made me much, much less judgmental of women who obsess, or even just care, about their bodies.

    Thank you so much for posting this. It actually gives me some insight into my own obsession with weight which I’m working on without much success. I’ve been dieting since I was 11 years old – when I just a little overweight. I’ve lost about, oh, 1000 pounts in my life in 20-, 30-, and 40-pound increments.

    I wonder how it’s done. How do you eat healthily, exercise and not worry about your weight, especially with a metabolism that really does go bonkers all the time?* If anyone has suggestions or resources I’d really like to know.

    *I have to grit my teeth when average-sized or thin people talk about “everything in moderation”. They just don’t fucking get it.

20. I actually have been regularly reading this site for the past year (and sporadically before that). I’ve never seen anyone in any of the fat threads claim that all thin people have eating disorders. Can you point me to specific comments on specific threads? Because what you’re claiming sounds like a significant misreading to me.

    As for the rest of what you’ve written, I can’t figure out what it has to do with me or what I’ve written. I find the idea of telling an individual that her choices have set feminism back 50 years bizarre. I don’t care if people get married. I still think that marriage is a patriarchal institution. I think the way our culture approaches bodies, food, fitness, and weight loss is gross and patriarchal too. I think most people would benefit from eating better and being more active. I don’t see this as contradictory.

21. Yep, me and Wendy McClure and Jen and Erin all imagined that we had people telling us that we were bad feminists for losing weight. In fact, when Wendy posts about people complaining that she’s on a body image panel when she has done Weight Watchers, she’s clearly delusional about the whole thing because of course no one could possibly have complained about such a thing.

    Gosh, good to know that’s been cleared up.

22. Thank you for writing this.

    While a lot of why I’m thin is due to poor eating habits and metabolism, I enjoy being thin, in a shallow sort of way.  And I feel guilty for enjoying it – that whole “getting a cookie from the patriarchy” thing.  (One day, I will learn to eat better, and hopefully I will put on some weight.)

23. geez, mnemosyne. all debbie asked for was a link. if you don’t want to provide one, could you at least stop carping about other conversations that other people on the thread don’t even know about/remember?

24. I don’t personally like Weight Watchers because I think it’s more important to learn actual nutrition than to count points.

    That was the problem I ran into when I tried Weight Watchers. I didn’t know anything about nutrition, I couldn’t have told you the difference between protein and carbohydrates and all that, and I had no clue why after eating an apple for a snack I’d be ravenously hungry an hour later. I didn’t know how to make good choices with my points and so I was hungry all the time and miserable. When I complained about this the only advice I got was not to eat junk food. So I gave up.

    Then a few years later I moved in with a friend who taught me about nutrition (and cooked healthy meals for the household) and I lost 30 pounds without doing a damn thing other than eating her food.

25. I think something that this discussion highlights is that the personal is political, but not EVERYTHING personal is political.

    For instance, when I single-handedly created my weight problem by nervous-eating candy for months while planning a wedding to someone I may have subconsciously realized I shouldn’t be marrying, was I being empowerful by doing What I Wanted (eating candy bars) and Not Caring about how it would make me look to the menz?

    How about when I, after Weight Watchers success and dropping off of WW to comfort-eat about my horrible marriage, had a long nasty divorce, during which I for the first time in my life LOST my appetite because of depression? Was it anti-feminist of me to use Weight Watchers Points to force myself to eat a healthy minimum of calories during that time? Was that weight loss feminist because I was leaving a controlling bastard, or anti-feminist because I noticed it and liked the way it looked?

    Really, who can unpack that? And if anyone wants to tell me that I’m not a good feminist because I had to find a way to resist our MORE-MORE-MORE marketing and food culture, because I don’t want to waste my money buying a new set of clothes every season as my weight yo-yos at random, and because being 30 pounds lighter helped my asthma almost as much as $80 medication, go ahead. Fundamentally, you aren’t in my life, and you don’t make my choices.

    P.S. Mnemosyne — you’re a lecturer? Awesome. I’ve often reckoned if I ever made goal, I might try to get a lecturer position. I imagine it’s a good thing to have feminist WW lecturers, even if they never touch explicitly on feminism.

26. Yep, me and Wendy McClure and Jen and Erin all imagined that we had people telling us that we were bad feminists for losing weight. In fact, when Wendy posts about people complaining that she’s on a body image panel when she has done Weight Watchers, she’s clearly delusional about the whole thing because of course no one could possibly have complained about such a thing.

    I guess this would make sense if I had said anything about anyone being called a bad feminist for losing weight or going on Weight Watchers. I’m still waiting for that example of a fat activist claiming that fat people are better/more virtuous than thin people, or that all thin people have eating disorders. You made those claims. If you can’t back it up, fine. It’s not a big deal. I asked because you said something that I disagreed with. I asked for examples in order to assess your argument, as well as my own belief that fat activists don’t promote the idea that being fat is better than being thin. Asking for proof or examples is a reasonable thing to do in the course of discussion or debate. What isn’t reasonable is acting like I’ve done something wrong by asking you to back up your argument.

    I haven’t called anyone a liar, or said they’re delusional. I haven’t made any comments about Weight Watchers. It should be clear that I wouldn’t call anyone a bad feminist for losing or trying to lose weight because I have admitted on this thread to wanting to lose weight. The idea that Wendy McClure shouldn’t be on a body image panel because she’s done Weight Watchers is stupid. Almost every woman I know has dieted at some point in her life, even if they haven’t done it through a program like Weight Watchers – none of us are politically pure. And besides, as the diet industry goes, Weight Watchers seems way better than anything else I’ve seen. You don’t skip meals, or replace food with gross chalky diet drinks, or take pills.

27. Look, as far as “potbelly”: no one has that perfectly taut, flat tummy. Women have more stuff in that part of the body than men, and more “protection” padding in front of it, period. Not to mention most flat tummies you see in advertising are airbrushed to hell and back (a post in itself). And keep in mind posture is part of it; I always looked like I had a bit of a beer belly (despite never having had a drop in my life, to this day) even when I was severely underweight and malnourished, because I don’t have the strength to keep proper posture. I always slouch and slump, and so I have a tummy, I have rolls, and all the rest of that fun stuff.

    It happens. Try your best not to judge yourself for it.

    On topic: Of COURSE near every woman who ever goes on a diet does it with a goal of weight loss in mind… even if it’s waaaay in the back of her mind. These things are pounded into our head pretty firmly by a pretty young age. It’s hard to escape, and it’s something you really have to fight day by day even if you’re fully aware of it and consider it BS. Don’t feel guilty because you feel that. It’s perfectly normal. And it’s not a sign of bad character or anything of the sort. All it says is that you aren’t free of influence of the society you were raised in — nobody is.

28. That was the problem I ran into when I tried Weight Watchers. I didn’t know anything about nutrition, I couldn’t have told you the difference between protein and carbohydrates and all that, and I had no clue why after eating an apple for a snack I’d be ravenously hungry an hour later.

    Actually, the Weight Watchers core program is pretty sound nutritionally as long as you follow the minimums. It’s mostly fruit, vegetables, whole grains and unprocessed meat and fish. I don’t know if there’s a vegan version, however, and they do stress two servings of dairy a day. You could do a lot worse. That being said, I dropped WW because I followed the program – indeed, I still do – and didn’t lose an ounce after the first twenty pounds. There’s no provision for a “plateau” that lasts a year and I got tired of spending money on meetings that depressed the hell out of me.

    I really wish I had known when I was a teenager that “a calorie is a calorie is a calorie” just isn’t true. Sigh.

29. If you’re going to go on a diet program that isn’t “learn good nutrition and try to follow it” then Weight Watchers is probably the best one to do, that’s for sure. And it teaches skills that can be used in a variety of ways (as demonstrated by the commenter who said she used it to help her make sure she ate a good minimum of food). That doesn’t mean it’s the only way, but it can definitely be a Good Thing even if you hate the diet industry in general.

    And nobody has called anyone a “bad feminist” or insinuated that fat is more righteous in this thread. Hurtful things may have been said in the past, and it’s understandable that this can be a touchy subject because of it, but it doesn’t appear any of the offending comments have been made here or that any of the offending commenters are hanging around here, so perhaps the claws need to be re-sheathed here.

30. Regarding exercise, I’ve always wondered whether the typical ways of teaching gym class (competitive and sometimes humiliating, stupid outfits, group showers in run-down, moldy locker rooms, requiring children to do sports or activities they hate instead of encouraging them to try new things and find a fitness method that pleases them, enforcing gender expectation, grades not based on individual improvement) has given rise to adults who dislike and fear exercise of any kind.

    Is it because we’re supposed to hate and fear our bodies that we can’t teach children– and therefore future adults– to take care of them in whatever peculiar way suits?

31. blrkfrnk: in a word, yes. and yes.

32. It’s very hard to read a post like this. I have not had a normal relationship with food or exercise is so long… I hope I can get there one day.

33. Mnemosyne, I know EXACTLY what you’re talking about. I see it on this blog and on a kajillion other blogs and websites. Sometimes it’s that “real women have blahblah” crap, other times it’s the “I’m glad I’m not ugly and breastless like those skinny women” stuff. But it does all get on my nerves. Especially since my mom subscribes to both those camps–the “real women” camp and the “no breasts = ugly woman” camp.

    In other words, you’re not crazy. I know you know you aren’t, but I thought I should chime in and say “I’ve seen it too!”

34. The title of this post is so aptly named… do I lose weight, do I not lose weight… if I do, how do I phrase it to myself so a) it works, and b) I dont’ feel like a sell out… if I eat that white chocolate chip & M&M cookie, should I hate myself or just go about my day? I don’t really have answers to those questions… part of me wants to refuse to lose weight because it’s assumed that I should/will by my family, and that just irritates me. But I also grimace when I look in the mirror. For the moment, I’ve just been trying to figure out how to be psychologically un-fucked-up in the way I approach eating in general. I don’t know if that’s a decent plan for weight loss, but I guess we’ll see how it goes.

    In response to Mnemosyne and others who have shared her experiences here and elsewhere, I want to say that, I think these reactions in some overweight commenters has to do with the fact that people make a lot of offensive assumptions when they look at fat people; it’s humiliating and a little dehumanizing, so there’s a strong temptation to push the offensive assumptions back at “normal” people, in an attempt to show just how subjective “normal” really is. Speaking for myself, there’s a little bit of jealousy, too. My whole life I’ve tried to be thin, but on the other hand, I’ll be damned if I give into the “suggestions” of people who seem to think that I wouldn’t know enough not to eat my own child if I had one.

    When people see a “normal” weight person, they just… see a normal weight person. When people see a fat person, there are several automatic assumptions made, and I have heard them uttered by people here and elsewhere when fat comes up as a topic (not to mention by my own family when they see me): “that person must be so unhealthy”, “that person must eat x, y, and z awful foods every day”, and most importantly, of course, “that person absolutely *has* to lose weight”. That last really bothers me… there seems to be an assumption on the part of the general public — especially people screaming about the obesity! crisis! — that overweight people simply should lose weight, and that we all of course want to.

    Someone responded to one of my own fat-related blog entries recently with “everybody should make healthy lifestyle changes. when people say that they shouldn’t, that annoys me”. That, in turn, annoyed me… since when should I do anything so long as what I’m currently doing doesn’t hurt anyone? And who does this person think she is? Just because she’s a normal size, how does that give her the right to tell me or anyone else what I “should” do?

    That doesn’t mean that trying to send the offensive assumptions in the other direction is right. And I’m not trying to defend it per se… just trying to explain, in myself at least, where the tendancy comes from to say, “well, *real* women have curves”. Fat people are treated like they aren’t people at all. Can you blame us for wanting to stake some claim on personhood, even if it’s not done in a terribly polite or eloquent way?

35. Andrea, thank you.

    This post made me feel squeamish. I always agree with everything Wendy M says, but I felt a little freaked reading a feminist blogger basically say that she could not deal with looking like me. I can understand the desire and enjoyment of exercise, and sure, honesty is the best policy, but hey, being chubby isn’t SO bad, is it? as feminists we know there’s a big world out there for all shapes and sizes, and even the bigger among us can get love, right? right?

    me, i work out, i eat produce, sometimes i eat cheeseburgers. and i’m still thick. sometimes i even get attention. i’m in a happy relationship and wear cute clothes and go out and all that. i’m just big. and it’s ok, i’ve managed somehow.

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