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Gender/queerness and street harassment

Yesterday morning I listened to a segment on the Brian Lehrer show about street harassment (cat-calling) in NYC. Lehrer interviewed three women: Latosha Belton and Ashley Lewis, two Brooklyn teenagers who worked with Girls for Gender Equity to create “Sisters in Strength Strikes Back: Our Struggle with Street Harassment,” a city-wide summit this past May; and Maggie Hadleigh-West, maker of the anti-street-harassment film War Zone.

The three women talked about their extensive experiences with street harassment directed at them from men of all ages. Ashley Lewis described how she feels like her new way of responding to street harassers is better than staying silent:

The approach I’m taking now, I feel like it’s better ’cause I’ll ask a man something, “Do you really think it’s appropriate to come at me in the street?” And they’re so taken aback by the question that they’re stunned, they don’t know what to say. So instead of answering it, they kind of walk away from me, so it kind of helps.

Hearing that, I couldn’t help worry that the girls would encounter some men who would do far more and far worse than run away. Maggie Hadleigh-West described some of those more violent responses when discussing how she came to make her film:

… I realized that I actually had a weapon that I could turn on the men exactly in the same way that they were harassing me… I would turn the camera on the men, and I would ask them, ‘Why are you looking at my breasts? Why did you just say what you said to me?’… I got an abundance of responses. Sometimes men were angry, a number of times men tried to hit me, sometimes they ran away from me, sometimes – very, very rarely, in fact twice out of about a thousand interviews, they were apologetic.

Brian Lehrer commented on Maggie’s turning the camera on the men, saying “It’s really funny because they were invading your space, and what you did was turn around and invade their space.” Maggie responded by making an important point: “Right – but they’re accustomed to the privilege of being able to do that without there being any consequences whatsoever.”

The phone lines were opened to callers, both women who experience street harassment and men who perpetrate it. The caller was Shane from Queens, who attempted to justify his cat-calling: “Just acknowledging a woman that, how do I say this, she wore something that she was obviously looking for attention for, so I said, ‘Ok, you look nice.’ What’s wrong with that?” Comments like that make it clear that this sort of street harassment is just another point on the continuum of violence against women; this guy’s b.s. sounds a lot like the “she was dressed like a slut, she was asking for it” type of justification that’s so often given for rape and sexual assault. Even if it’s admitted that the rapist’s actions were wrong, blame can also be directed towards the victim if she was wearing or acting in any way that could be labeled as “provocative” or “sexual” in the least.

Of course, the women were well-prepared for that sort of garbage rationale, probably having heard it before. Latosha put it quite well when she said, “The main flag that flew up in my mind was when he said she’s obviously looking for attention. We are not mind readers, nor are we psychics. You have no idea whether or not she was looking for the attention, or maybe it’s just a hot day, and I feel comfortable in shorts. It isn’t up to you to decide whether or not she wants you to talk to you.”

Shane was still on the line, so Brian asked him if he felt differently after hearing the women’s comments. The unrepentant jerk’s response? “No, not at all.” Clearly, I overestimate the ability of some guys to understand what sexist assholes they are, because I was flabbergasted that he was so convinced utterly of his correctness. Brian then asked Shane,”So if you see a beautiful woman walking down the street, an unbelievably hot, sexy woman walking down the street, but not in what you would call provocative clothes, then you won’t do it?” Shane replied, “No, not at all. She’s not looking for that kind of attention.” This comment makes evident the fact that Shane’s not just a well-meaning but misguided appreciator of female beauty; he’s only “complimenting” women who he decides are “asking for it,” who are easiest for him to sexually objectify. His stupidity continued: “You can go into certain neighborhoods and see high shorts or lots of cleavage, and that’s a sign of, okay, that person wants to be complimented.” Well, damn. “Certain neighborhoods?” How much do you want to bet that there was a whole lot of racism and classism going on there?

After that guy got off the line, Maggie responded to some more to what he’d said. She talked about how about how she thinks that all people want to be acknowledged for their attractiveness but that “that does not mean that we want our space to be invaded at all, or that we are dressing for that particular man.”

That part got me thinking about the strongly heterosexual framing of this and many other conversations about street harassment. Maybe some women aren’t dressing for any man at all? Maybe some women are dressing for other women, or – gasp – just for themselves? These discussions rarely include queer voices or even the possibility that some women aren’t looking for any sexual attention from men, be it respectful or not.

Since I’ve started to present as a genderqueer butch – keeping my hair cut quite short, dressing only in “men’s” clothing, that sort of thing – I’ve still gotten some street harassment. Not nearly as much as my more femininely-presenting queer friends and lovers, but some. I’m always a little bit baffled by it, to tell the truth. I always assume that guys will look at me and assume that I’m off limits because I’m fairly easy to read as queer. (Since, you know, some people can’t fathom that a masculine, queer, female-bodied person could possibly be into guys.) Some guys will try to talk to me specifically about my gender presentation; I’ve gotten a whole lot of “I like short hair! I like women with short hair! I don’t mind!” Oh yeah, thanks, random-ass dude, I was really worried that you might mind!

Really, though, I think that cat-calling isn’t just about thinking a woman looks good or being sexually attracted to her. I think a possibly larger motivation is simply to assert control and dominance over women, to display a man’s sense of privilege to do whatever the hell he wants to a woman that Maggie spoke of in her interview. Yeah, sometimes maybe it’s genuine and very mis-expressed attraction, but I don’t think that most guys really expect to attract a woman with their cat-calling. It’s about the power trip, the ability to say some fucked-up thing to a woman and get a response, any response, be it positive or negative. Sometimes, when I’m getting harassed in that way, I think that the guys definitely assume that I’m queer and not interested in them, but they do it anyway just to demonstrate that, however I dress, however I define and express my gender and my sexuality, I’m still just a woman to them; I’m still below them; they can still fuck with me and, ultimately, they think they could still fuck me, if they wanted to. That knowledge is probably what makes me feel so disrespected, sickened and violated on those rare occasions that I do attract street harassment. It doesn’t really matter if I just stay quiet, speed away, or yell back – I always feel pretty shitty and enraged afterwards.

And then I always think – how do visually feminine women, who get way more of this than me, deal? How do femmes and other feminine queer women handle that on the daily?

I’d like to hear from all folks on this topic, but I’d especially like to hear what other queer, genderqueer, and trans folks who experience this sort of street harassment think. How do you deal?

(Cross-posted at AngryBrownButch)


103 thoughts on Gender/queerness and street harassment

  1. I think there is a very big difference between simply complimenting somebody on their clothing and harrassing them.

    That guy, Shane, who called into the show obviously didn’t understand that difference because he felt that saying “You look nice” wasn’t a big deal. He’s right, there isn’t anything wrong with that at all, but that wasn’t what was being discussed. The kind of talk that they meant was probably something along the lines of “Hey baby, nice tits!” or some guy yelling from his car while I walk down the street telling me how much he likes my ass (which has happened).

    Consider, for just a moment, Shane cat-calling (or “complimenting”) some young girl on the street. Now imagine her freaking out and telling him he is a scummy ass loser. Something tells me she wouldn’t flip her shit like that just because he said “You look very nice today.” It was probably something more like “Hey sexy lady, I’d tap that ass.”

    I think the difference is obvious.

    So, of course he didn’t change his mind. He doesn’t even fucking get it. He actually thinks there isn’t a line that would divide sexual harrassment and complimenting a woman on the street.

    Complimenting somebody on how nice they look today is acceptable because it doesn’t cross any boundaries and doesn’t invade any personal space. However, telling someone they have nice tits while they are walking down the street is taking something private about their bodies and making it public.

  2. I disagree with Katlyn’s response. Personal comments to strangers are almost always out of line. You have no idea how your comment will be received or what it will mean to that person. “Old-fashioned” manners are really based on courtesy and respect for others, and comments about the appearance of someone you don’t even know are intrusive. It’s true that not everyone objects to them, but that doesn’t give us an excuse to force them on people.
    Young women, especially, feel vulnerable to the opinions of others, and this aggressive approach, even if it’s polite and complimentary, basically says “strangers are judging you on your appearance and feel that they have the right to let you know.”
    As a “visually feminine” young woman, I felt a lot of pressure to look pretty, and then felt the danger of attracting attention. Once I was walking through downtown DC with a friend when a man pulled alongside us with his window rolled down. He said something inappropriate, I looked at him, and then I poured my 16-ounce Coke with ice in his lap. We took off running and laughing hysterically!

  3. There is a huge difference between looking at a person and leering at her. The same difference exists between complimenting her and catcalling her.

    The first acknowledges the humanity of the other person and is harmless. The second is an expression of aggression, dominance, and privilege.

    To leer is to make it clear that you’re looking, to reinforce that any woman can be reduced to her body. It’s different from a glance, or even from an obvious and appreciative glance. Same with the difference between complimenting and catcalling. The latter is likely to escalate into aggression if the catcallee responds in any way.

    I once had a man approach me in a grocery store, and tell me he thought I was very attractive and wanted to speak with me. A little awkward, but not frightening. If I had been looking for a relationship, it might even have led to a coffee date. This is much different from being yelled at across the street about the size of my tits. Or the man who grabbed onto the handlebars of my bicycle at a stoplight and demanded my name.

    People who claim not to know the difference between compliments and harassment are being disingenuous. They’re just trying to protect their perceived God-granted right to belittle other people.

  4. It’s not always “harmless” to compliment strangers. You know exactly how Shane and his ilk would react if a bunch of gay guys started whooping at them.

  5. I have to say, I think a comment to a stranger about her looks is always inappropriate, no matter how polite it is. If you want to be friendly, comment on the weather, or the book she’s reading or something.
    As for me, I dress butch and keep my hair short or buzzed and I find I get MORE harassment now than I did when I dressed more femininely. Me and my best friend have noticed a trend – you get more assholes yelling at you when you look like shit than when you look nice. Go out scowling and in sweatpants and they come out of the woodwork. My theory is that these guys see a girl who doesn’t care about what she looks like and they’re threatened, so the “catcalls” are a way to assert dominance and get her back in line.

  6. Oh yeah, thanks, random-ass dude, I was really worried that you might mind!

    This is pretty much how I feel about most of the “compliments” and all of the harrassment heaped on me by strangers (almost always men)–what on earth makes you think I care whether you like my ________ (fill in the blank) in the first place? And yes I know the difference between a sincere and respectful comment and harassment. Just last night I went walking after dinner and was almost home when some wankstain pulled up beside me to say hey baby how you doin’ what a gorgeous pair of legs you got and I bet a luscious little pussy to go with them, etc. It was night, there was no one else on the street, although most of the houses had lights on, but still. He drove around a couple of times and then took off for good but not before I was scared out of my mind.

    So heartfelt thanks for this post and the links to the show–it was so nice not to mention validating to read/hear this today!

  7. I just want to make sure that folks aren’t giving Shane too much credit here. Can we honestly believe that he simply says “you look nice” to these women in a benign, polite way? Given his other comments, I’d guess not. One comment that I didn’t include in my entry before, but decided to add now, was when he says that he wouldn’t make such comments to a beautiful woman who wasn’t dressed “provocatively,” which makes his “compliments” seem a whole lot more like “sexual objectification.”

    And I agree with the folks who say that even the most benign “compliments,” when delivered by strangers, can definitely be unwelcome, disrespectful and disconcerting. The sexual objectification of women and the gendered hierarchy of power doesn’t just disappear if someone says something nicely.

  8. Well, I’m a straight, traditionally feminine woman living in DC, but I think you have this exactly right. It’s not about thinking a woman looks nice and wanting to tell her, it’s about policing public spaces and making sure they remain male-controlled. A woman walking around by herself is asserting her right to be in public alone, going wherever she wants. That’s too much for our lovely patriarchy, so catcalls are a reminder that we’re not safe in public alone.

  9. I actually find I get more “attention” (to be euphemistic) when I’m frumpy/sloppy that day as opposed to well made up. It’s always baffled me.

    As far as whether compliments are ok–I’m leaning no. Remember your context. A bouquet of flowers and a heartfelt hand-written card are a great gift from a significant other (if you’re into that kinna’ thing), but a bouquet of flowers from a stranger and a heartfelt hand-written card from a stranger is creepy, stalkerish and out of line. Likewise with the compliments thing. It’s great to receive a compliment from someone whose opinion matters to you, but when it comes to strangers on the street, well, they can go fuck themselves if they think I’m supposed to care what they think of me. And yes, actually telling someone what you think of them has a strong implication of “you should care what I think of you.” You can’t get around that.

    (Of course, that’s not how I started out. It took years of training myself to stop caring what everyone in the world might think of anything to do with me. Makes for a much easier life, but it took a lot of effort, and I don’t think it’s the default state for many women in this society–we’re all trained from the start to feel beholden to the whims of society.)

  10. “cat-calling isn’t just about thinking a woman looks good or being sexually attracted to her. I think a possibly larger motivation is simply to assert control and dominance over women, to display a man’s sense of privilege to do whatever the hell he wants to a woman that Maggie spoke of in her interview.”

    Exactly correct. I’m over 50, disabled, queer, I weigh more than Beth Ditto and still men make kissy noises and cat-call at me when I’m walking to or from the bus stop.

  11. Oops I should have read again before posting.

    What MH says!

    “it’s about policing public spaces and making sure they remain male-controlled. A woman walking around by herself is asserting her right to be in public alone, going wherever she wants. That’s too much for our lovely patriarchy, so catcalls are a reminder that we’re not safe in public alone.”

  12. Against my better judgment and most of my own reactions, (and leaving Shane out of it) I want to point out that society sends very confusing and contradictory messages to both men and women about the appropriateness of men approaching women they don’t know in a sexual/romantic manner. (I’m not talking about comments about asses, legs, tits, fucking, etc., which I think most people agree are disrespectful and aggressive, but the ones that are more borderline.) Boys are taught from a very young age that they need to make the first move, and girls are taught that their physical attractiveness and self-presentation are paramount in securing a romantic/sexual partner. As presented in popular culture, the same words or acts, coming from two very different looking men, can have very different values – attention is romantic and flattering if the woman desires it from that man, but it’s risible, if not harassment, when she doesn’t. And those things are often very class-coded and looks-coded. Moreover, men are taught that persistence is romantic and sometimes rewarded, that women sometimes play “hard to get.” SO while these behaviors definitely come out of the power imbalance between men and women, it’s not always as simple or clear that the men in question simply want to dominate. (Though that is often, if not mostly, the case).

    There are also a lot of class issues that come out. I think that’s what makes it so touchy an issue – gender hierarchies aren’t the only ones at play. Middle-class and upper-class men are taught not to catcall women of their own (apparent) class on the street, but a lot of frat boys will do it to any woman who looks “trashy.” On the other hand, when I walk past a homeless man who calls out that he likes my ass, there’s no question that I have more power than him, despite our respective genders. When a woman in a business suit walks past a group of construction workers who catcall and say she’s a snob if she doesn’t respond, there are both gender and class politics going on that t are not so easy to disentangle, the more so because in a way, they’re right – in all likelihood, she wouldn’t ever be willing to date one of them, regardless of how polite and respectful she was.

    None of this is to defend harassment in any way. I hate it, and it enrages me when I’m on the receiving end. I just want to say that A) it’s really really complicated; and B) it’s not always INTENDED to be disrespectful, even if it is.

  13. in all likelihood, she wouldn’t ever be willing to date one of them, regardless of how polite and respectful she was.

    Ack, that was supposed to be “regardless of how polite and respectful HE was!!!!

  14. But Betsy, those kind of class issues only seem to get played out by harrassing women. I’ve never seen a crowd of working-class women, say, diner waitresses, sexually harrassing a man in a suit and then talking about how it’s because a man of his class would never really go out with one of them, and I’ve never seen a homeless woman comment on a man’s ass. What seems to me to be happening is that working-class and homeless men are compensating for their rightful anger at a capitalist system that exploits them by re-asserting their gender privilege and threatening women–i.e., it’s a cleaned-up version of “you may make more money, but you can still be raped.” And that just doesn’t strike me as too complex–it’s flat-out threatening sexism.

  15. Oh man does that kinda stuff drive me mad. Because of my job (stand-up comic) I’m always coming home late in areas where there are lots of drunk guys, usually in big groups, which of course isn’t the most comforting thing to start with. Add to that that I’ve been on stage so I’m probably wearing six times the average amount of make up and carrying a big old bag of props, stands, notes, etc and the chances of me getting home without a fuss is around about nil!

    I generally swear at them or just run away as fast as possible if I’m really scared. Never fails to put me in a really bad mood though. What do you DO about it?

  16. Betsy: I definitely agree that there are look and class issues at play here, as well as race issues. (Though I also agree that those issues in no way justify or lessen the wrongness of street harassment.) In fact, I’m already working on my next post about just those issues…

  17. never realized compliments to strangers were creepy. i (small harmless-looking woman) routinely go up to people in public to tell them i like their shirt and such. never noticed anyone seeming uncomfortable, but 1) i do turn around and walk away immediately after and 2) i am notoriously oblivious. i’ve always felt that our society is all about criticism – that saying nice things is construed as weak – and i wanted to try to change that in my own tiny way.

    sigh. i hate to think that i was upsetting people when i was trying to spread teh happy.

  18. I’ve encountered some pretty rude stuff, being a large-chested redhead, I’m a walking target for attention.

    The only random compliments from men I do not mind are the 90 year old gentlemen who wink flirtaciously when they come into my work place and say “heya red!” Somehow that is just sweet oldmanness.

    Not the 40 year old guy who came right up to me and said “You’ve got big, floppy breasts!” If that guy comes near me again I have ever right to sock him one in the nose (or balls, perhaps) and show him what it feels like to have one’s space invaded…

  19. EG, I think that’s sometimes true (as in my construction worker example). But in other situations, I think that’s too simplistic a reading. I guess it’s the difference between intent and function. I agree that catcalls of “hey lady, you’re lookin’ goooood” serve to reinforce patriarchy and remind women that they can be raped. But I do disagree that that’s always the intent. I think you’re right that working-class and poor men don’t often take out their anger on wealthier men; that’s where the gender stuff comes in and serves to perpetuate both kinds of hierarchy. Mabye that’s simple, but it seems to me that remembering that disadvantaged groups oppress each other, rather than it simply being that all men are empowered and all women aren’t, is more complicated than we often want to see it as.
    (Also, I have seen homeless women tell men they think their HOTT, but the weight and meaning behind it is different, since the power differential between the men they’re saying that too and themselves is even bigger than between a homeless man and a well-off woman.)

  20. A femme queer friend of mine (who tends to wears very low cut shirts) usually responds to leering or catcalls about her breasts from men by yelling “I’m wearing this so that WOMEN will stare at my breasts, NOT YOU!” Sometimes when I’m in a group with other bi and lesbian friends one of them will retaliate by yelling back “forget it, we’re dykes!” or something of the sort. I don’t really think this is the best approach, it is akin to saying that catcalling is somehow more appropriate when the woman being leered at is straight, when in fact it is equally offensive to ALL women. I (a femme queer who is usually mistaken for straight) tend to just reply with a heartfelt “Fuck off!”

  21. I guess I see what most of you are saying. Even if you were to simply compliment someone, you don’t know how they are going to take it. I guess I might be only thinking of certain instances.

    Like if I were to be complimented on my hair, I would not feel that it’s inappropriate at all. I’ve also been complimented on my eyes by people I don’t know or just met. I’m not ignorant enough to think, however, that my reactions represent everyone’s. I know that some people, when complimented on anything that involves their appearance, can become very uncomfortable with it.

    However, I still feel that there is a complete difference between someone who is trying to give a compliment and someone who is harassing. I think that difference is the person’s intention. When you are just trying to give a genuine compliment to someone, you are not doing it be domineering and the intention is harmless. And I know when you mean it to be harmless, it doesnt always come off to the other person as harmless. I do understand that. But when a person is sexually harassing someone on the street, they do have the intention to cause harm. I think that’s a very important difference that needs to be acknowledged. That’s why I don’t think it makes much sense to lump people who are giving compliments, thinking they are harmless and polite, with the same people who are harassing, who know they are causing harm and want to.

    I, on the other hand, still agree with most of you here. It can’t be assumed that someone isn’t going to be offended by a compliment, even if your intentions were good.

  22. How do femmes and other feminine queer women handle that on the daily?

    With difficulty. Catcalls chip away at queer femme armor. It’s like no matter how tough I try to look or the fact that I have hairy legs and armpits, I still expect a significant number of catcalls every day if I’m wearing an outfit that keeps me cool in the summer heat. And there’s nothing shittier than having your femininity not only misread as straight femininity (i.e. you have NO idea how little interest I have in you, gross man) but also to experience it being used to disempower you. It also makes me even more defensive walking down the street than I am in the winter, when I can hide underneath a big coat and a hat and stow away my femme-ness for my friends and lovers who actually get it. Queer femininity tends to collapse on the street – its nuance gets lost. And then I not only feel disgusting, as any woman would after being harassed – I’ve also momentarily lost my gender identity.

    My trans boyfriend gets harassed significantly less, hardly ever, when he is alone. When he’s holding my hand, it’s a different story. He is a few inches shorter than me and somehow that seems to make a lot of men on the street really insecure about their own masculinity, like how did this short dude score with this femme.

  23. Jack, thanks for posting on this. I listened to the show yesterday, as did my male partner. He knows (because this is an issue we’ve talked about) that I deal with this crap every day I go out (regardless of where I go/what I wear, and I’m no great looker), and while I respect/appreciate that he wants it to stop, he keeps asking what HE can do about it. And no, I don’t want this to be about teh menz, but since guys who street harrass obviously have a low opinion of women except as masturbatory/ego aids, wouldn’t the discouragement of another guy be more effective?

    I usually ignore it, thinking that what they want is my attention, but lately I’ve been thinking about talking back–maybe just asking the sorts of questions that Maggie H-W posed to the guys in her film–there’s a five-minute clip on youtube, if she doesn’t have it posted at her own site. “Why would you say that to me?”, “How do you expect me to respond to that comment?” etc. but as Awesome Dude Shane proves, logic is no match for male privilege.

  24. Katlyn, your experiences and interpretations are totally valid. I think that’s another thing that makes this issue challenging – people DO experience and interpret things differently. It’s fine for someone to disagree with your interpretation, but that doesn’t make yours invalid.

    However, I still feel that there is a complete difference between someone who is trying to give a compliment and someone who is harassing. I think that difference is the person’s intention. When you are just trying to give a genuine compliment to someone, you are not doing it be domineering and the intention is harmless. And I know when you mean it to be harmless, it doesnt always come off to the other person as harmless. I do understand that. But when a person is sexually harassing someone on the street, they do have the intention to cause harm. I think that’s a very important difference that needs to be acknowledged. That’s why I don’t think it makes much sense to lump people who are giving compliments, thinking they are harmless and polite, with the same people who are harassing, who know they are causing harm and want to.

    I think I was trying to say something similar, about distinguishing between intent and function, which are sometimes the same and sometimes not.

  25. A good article in the Washington City Paper a few weeks ago.

    Nice Ass!
    Illustrations by Kyle T. Webster

    VIDEO: Catcallers and the Women They Call

    RELATED:

    I’ve Got Your ‘Hey Baby!’ Right Here
    By Kimberly Klinger
    Diary of a Catcall Hater
    By Kimberly Klinger

    Not even grandmas are safe from D.C.’s street harassers.
    By Joe Eaton
    Posted: June 21, 2007

    It’s early evening in Adams Morgan, and I’m tracking a nice ass in a pair of bluejeans as it glides down the Columbia Road sidewalk. I’m matching its pace, keeping my distance, 15 steps or so behind, so I can watch, so no one notices I’m watching.

  26. philosophizer, I’d say that it’s perfectly okay to say “Hey, I like your t-shirt!” when it’s clear that it really is the picture or slogan you like. My t-shirts ARE cool and I don’t mind people noticing and saying so. That’s a long, long way from the judgemental jerks and entitled assholes making comments about your appearance – good or bad.

  27. For example, if I were wearing a “President Evil II” t-shirt, I’d expect double-takes and conversations to start. Same with my “Will work for books” t-shirt.

  28. If my comment regarding the article in the Washington City paper gets out of moderation: delete the redundant http:// that the software adds to links now.

    And Deanna — don’t dismiss the possibility the t-shirt admirers were also checking out your boobs.

  29. I have to say, I think a comment to a stranger about her looks is always inappropriate, no matter how polite it is. If you want to be friendly, comment on the weather, or the book she’s reading or something.

    I agree. I never want to hear that I look nice from any stranger. It just feels icky. There’s basically no way that it works out well. Either he’s nice and well-meaning, but in the nice guy (TM) way or he’s a flat out asshole. Really nice guys, the ones worth dating, start conversations by asking a question, not asserting themselves.

  30. And there’s nothing shittier than having your femininity not only misread as straight femininity (i.e. you have NO idea how little interest I have in you, gross man) but also to experience it being used to disempower you. It also makes me even more defensive walking down the street than I am in the winter, when I can hide underneath a big coat and a hat and stow away my femme-ness for my friends and lovers who actually get it. Queer femininity tends to collapse on the street – its nuance gets lost. And then I not only feel disgusting, as any woman would after being harassed – I’ve also momentarily lost my gender identity.

    I am trying not to misread you or interpret this ungenerously, so I hope this doesn’t come out sounding like an attack or an attempt to direct the conversation away from queer women. However, I am curious: do you think that every word of this is not equally true for hetero women? I mean every word. Being treated as a victim, an decorative object for men’s eyes, a legitimate target of abuse for anyone with a cock, having it assumed that my performance of femininity is 1. intrinsically subservient and 2. for them — that’s all just as foreign to my gender identity and my sexuality as it is to yours.

  31. And Deanna — don’t dismiss the possibility the t-shirt admirers were also checking out your boobs.

    Hector, don’t dismiss the possibility that every time a woman says “Good morning” to you, she’s really thinking “Fuck off and die.”

    I mean, hey, it’s not that likely, but why shouldn’t you feel paranoid and threatened too, whenever a stranger offers you a harmless bit of civil conversation?

    Seriously, what the fuck was the point of that little comment?

  32. sophonisba wrote:

    However, I am curious: do you think that every word of this is not equally true for hetero women?

    I can’t speak for saltyfemme, but I do think that while those things may be true in some ways for straight women as well, there’s an additional element there for queer women; our extremely homophobic and heterosexist society, within which every woman is assumed to be straight, especially so if she has a feminine gender presentation. My experience of gender and harassment, though different from some folks who have posted, is that I get cat-called far less than my feminine queer women friends. I think that part of that is definitely because I’m either read as queer or as a little boy, and therefore am less likely to get cat-called by the guys who are actually trying to flirt with girls they’re attracted to. In a weird way, my identity is being recognized. Feminine queer women almost never get that. It’s an extra crappy bonus added into the mix of street harassment.

  33. Yeah… that comment felt a bit off to me too, Hector. Not so much for the reading bad into what seems to be civil conversation, but more because of the way you phrased it. Especially in a discussion like this, it just seems wrong to write something like that last bit, especially when you could’ve easily gotten your point across differently.

  34. My experience of gender and harassment, though different from some folks who have posted, is that I get cat-called far less than my feminine queer women friends.

    And far less than your feminine het women friends, too, right?

    To clarify, for you and saltyfemme both: I’m not saying street harassment isn’t worse for non-het women. I know it is; I would expect the threat of violence, implicit or explicit, is considerably higher, and there’s a whole other set of slurs and degrading language to have thrown at you, on top of everything else. It’s the “everything else” that I’m concerned with, because — and maybe this is all in my head, it could be — I get this nasty feeling that people are constructing harassment as somehow something that ‘goes with the territory’ of being a straight woman, as if it’s extra insulting somehow when it happens to queer women, because for straight women? It’s not that you’re saying we enjoy it, but it’s in the job description.

    For example, you say:

    In a weird way, my identity is being recognized.

    Am I to suppose, then, that for me, as a straight woman, to have some guy yell “Nice tits!” at me, is to have my identity recognized? Because, receiving harassment and sexualized threats did not become part of my sexuality the day I realized I liked dick. That isn’t my identity any more than it is yours, or any femme lesbian’s.

    I feel like you’re saying that being a target of male sexual threats ignores, tries to negate a lesbian’s sexual identity. And I think I get that. But, you know, it damn well negates mine, too. Street harassment is about THEIR heterosexuality, the men doing it. It’s nothing to do with straight women’s. “Victim of men” is no more my identity than it is yours. “Target” and “straight woman” are not equivalent labels, even if het men often act like it.

  35. On the other hand, when I walk past a homeless man who calls out that he likes my ass, there’s no question that I have more power than him, despite our respective genders.

    In general, yeah, this is true, but on the street, especially at night or if you’re alone, I at least always feel powerless because, well, he could beat me up if he wanted. Maybe I’m just paranoid, but I always clench up around street harrassers–and I agree with those that pretty much any random comment on my appearance is enough to freak me out (from a man anyway).

  36. do you think that every word of this is not equally true for hetero women?

    You could be right, though I can’t speak for hetero women because I am not hetero – I’m not sure how much straight women experience losing their gender identity though I’m open to hearing more about it. The question of how straight femininity is different from queer femininity (and how these differences relate to street harassment) is a much bigger question than format will allow, I think, though this is a really interesting discussion for a blog post.

  37. I get this nasty feeling that people are constructing harassment as somehow something that ‘goes with the territory’ of being a straight woman, as if it’s extra insulting somehow when it happens to queer women, because for straight women? It’s not that you’re saying we enjoy it, but it’s in the job description.

    Ack – I definitely don’t want to come off that way, because it’s certainly not what I think. Like you said, I do think that part of what happens when queer women are harassed is that their sexual identity is erased in a homophobic , heterosexist way. I don’t think that’s worse than what straight women experience, or that straight women are less oppressed or hurt by harassment – not in the least. I’m just talking about a different dynamic (homophobia/heterosexism) that exists for queer women vs straight women. It’s a difference in dynamic that I almost never hear spoken of in larger conversations outside of queer settings – this being a likely product of heterosexism in and of itself – which is why I’m focusing on it here.

  38. Well, I’ll leave it alone now, because it wasn’t my intention to derail the thread from a discussion of queer women’s experiences (and I’m sorry if I’ve already done so.) I’ve already registered my disagreement with some of the givens of the conversation, so I’ll save further argument for my own blog or another thread on a similar topic in the future. Thanks for the reply, though — I do still disagree, but I respect your perspective.

  39. that Washington City Paper article made me want to kill someone, starting perhaps with the tool who wrote it.

  40. Seriously, what the fuck was the point of that little comment?

    I confess; in my mad impetuous youth I would read strange young women’s tee-shirts. If, while reading, my eyes lingered too long, I would start to feel awkward. So I’d strike up a conversation about the ideas expressed on the shirt, lest I be thought a pervert.

  41. Is anyone here from the San Francisco bay area? I pretty much *never* experience street harrassment here. Is it just that I’m lucky? or is there any element of this that is regional? I know it’s hella common in NYC.

    anyway, reading all of these accounts of street harrasment make me SO.ANGRY. I couldn’t agree more with the posters earlier who pointed out that this is all about control and asserting men’s dominance not only of public space, but of all female (and female percieved) bodies.

  42. Um, Sadie, you must be living in some enchanted part of the Bay Area. I live in Berkeley and have “encounters” three times a week. I also have problems with street harassment in Union Square and the Mission, every single time I’m there.

  43. “However, I still feel that there is a complete difference between someone who is trying to give a compliment and someone who is harassing. I think that difference is the person’s intention. When you are just trying to give a genuine compliment to someone, you are not doing it be domineering and the intention is harmless. And I know when you mean it to be harmless, it doesnt always come off to the other person as harmless. I do understand that. But when a person is sexually harassing someone on the street, they do have the intention to cause harm.”

    The difference is the person’s intent?? WTF? I’m supposed to be a mind reader and figure out if someone intended to compliment or harass me?? This does not make sense.

    The willingness to let some men off the hook because they may really may be *nice guys* and mean no harm allows the overwhelming majority to say things like “but I didn’t mean anything by it, I was just trying to give you a compliment.”

    What a crock.

  44. ‘Kay, so I’m a transguy. I present as male, but I don’t often pass. I also don’t make for a very attractive woman. I have got catcalls in my time, but they’ve almost always been laced with sarcasm in my case.
    I dunno whether that’s better or worse – a guy calling ‘hey sexy!’ and leering at one’s body, or a guy calling ‘hey sexy!’ and laughing mockingly to underline one’s unattractiveness. Either way, not pleasant, and both are an example of the stunning arrogance of a certain kind of man who believes that he has a right to pass judgment on the sex appeal of any ovary-owner who hoves into view.

    (Oh, and sorry if this double-posts – something went wrong the first time I tried to comment.)

  45. I have to say, though I havent really ever seen any of this in person, only heard about it, I definitely agree that the “You look nice, and you dress like you want to bring attention to that, so whats wrong when I acknowledge that?” is all bullshit. Now maybe some people will get pissed when I bring my own experiences and make some sort of comparison (unless any guys have done already and Im unaware), but I have experienced a kind of “street harassment” before, though not quite as harmful, and definitely not as prevalent as it is for others.

    Im into “geeky” things, I dont have a girlfriend or have had one for a long time (not that I have problem with that, I just get the the impression other guys do), and I dress in “grebby” or “skater” kind of clothes (again not that I classify my own clothes, but others do), and I dont smoke or get drunk every weekend. Basically I think in regards to other guys, that puts me pretty low on the “food chain”. Now normally, if I get anyone shouting anything at me, its from a moving car as it drives by, so I cant retaliate. But in the event that someone does shout something on foot, its always from a safe distance. So perhaps even though the guys (or in a few minor occasions guys & girls) feel entitled to shout insults at me, I might still be threatening enough that they dont make it easy for me to retaliate or identify them. Unlike the experiences of others that I have read, where I think the guys definitely get off on the fact that they want the person to realise they shouted out.

    Mainly the only point Im trying to make is that, judging from my own experiences (different and not so harmful I admit, given my own situation and the insult differences) it is so OBVIOUSLY about these jackasses feeling they can say what they like to others. I dont think you really (or at least I dont) see enough general positive remarks being shouted out at people for other harmless things, to make me think these are sometimes miscommunications from guys who generally want to say “you look nice” in their own weird way. I don’t think its often I hear someone shout out that they like something about a person, like a shirt or shoes or some such. Im not saying it doesnt happen (mostly from particularly “energetic” people I imagine?) but I think most would look stupid if they wanted to draw attention to the fact that they like something mundane about someone else walking down the street. Or at least feel that way, but perhaps its different since I live in England?

    I know all that I have said is nothing “new”, but I just want to voice my agreement on this part, even though my situation is less harmful and very much different.

    In regards to dealing with my own situations with “harassment”, though Im not sure there is any point in me mentioning them, sometimes have to be the same, or at least similar. When its from a moving car, with people I cant see or dont recognise, I have to take the Dylan Moran approach where I “go home, have a cup of tea, and think about what I would have done to this person, had they been tied up”. If I was in a situation where I could go over to the people, I would definitely ask them why they felt the need to shout those things out, instead of saying them to my face. Of course, depending on my temperament and the situation, I may decide to get an early shot in on his face while he is “explaining”.

    Phew, sorry, that was incredibly long winded for something that boils down to “Ive never experienced it myself, but I agree”.

  46. I’ve had similar experiences presenting as a feminine genderqueer, where the circumstances of my birth weren’t usually deduced until I managed to say something (I never made a real effort, or felt a need for that matter, to mask my voice); though in cases like these, where I got called-after on the street, I tended to keep my mouth shut. I couldn’t even imagine trying to turn that back on them and it ending in a positive outcome for me.

  47. I really agree with the first commenter. Several years ago I was riding on the T in Pittsburgh and a man came up to me and said, “I just want to say that you look very cute today” and then held out his hand for me to shake it. I didn’t like that I felt forced to touch a stranger (in order to be polite), and I also didn’t feel particularly flattered, but I did really appreciate how polite and respectful he was towards me. (I want to add though that I think approaching someone and saying in a normal speaking voice “you look nice/cute/beautiful” is very different from shouting the same thing across the street, which is startling and embarrassing.)
    Contrast that experience with a guy cackling as I walked by and adjusted my skirt during the same summer. He yelled, “yeah pull that skirt down!” at me. I felt so humilated and angry.
    I just get so mad when guys complain about there not being a right way to compliment women on the street. First of all, cry me a fucking river, so you can’t give your opinion about a stranger to that stranger. Secondly, I don’t know if there is a right way, but there are clearly some ways that are better than others.

  48. I’ve been butch for quite a while now and the street harassment has definitely tapered off, though it still happens. What has been interesting me lately is watching my partner become more feminine in her appearance (growing out her hair, wearing sun dresses) and seeing the difference it has made in how she’s treated on the streets. It’s super odd to be walking with my girlfriend as a butch-but-still-read-as-female and watch her get remarks on the street. I don’t know if guys walking with their girlfriends see their girlfriends get harassed (I’m guessing not as often as I do, but I could be wrong), but it definitely feels more threatening in a homophobic way than when I’m alone and get harassed (because of my appearance, not because of my sexuality, which obviously happens as well and is quite different).

    But sometimes, it’s just funny. The other day, out with my girlfriend and a straight friend, a guy walks up to us and says “Well, I like your two dresses. You’re looking nice today.” (It’s funnier because only my girlfriend was wearing a dress.) Then he spies me and says “I mean, all three of you are looking nice today.” Sometimes you have to laugh because you’ve obviously confused them and taken some of the joy out of their little comment simply by existing. I told him (sarcastically) that he was very diplomatic. My friend gave him a look I swear could burn through steel.

  49. Jack said:

    I don’t think that’s worse than what straight women experience, or that straight women are less oppressed or hurt by harassment – not in the least. I’m just talking about a different dynamic (homophobia/heterosexism) that exists for queer women vs straight women. It’s a difference in dynamic that I almost never hear spoken of in larger conversations outside of queer settings

    I am in the slightly unique position of having been a het woman for many years, almost exclusively attracted to men, and now (for some years) being queer, almost exclusively attracted to women. I present fairly feminine, and experience street harassment to some degree every day.

    After thinking about it a little bit, I am actually not sure that I would say that the harassment dynamic for queer femmes differs from the harassment dynamic for straight femmes. The men harassing me have no idea whether I’m gay or straight. They don’t even care. I think that street harassment as a phenomenon is reflective of broader societal heterosexism (in that it generally only comes from men directed at women), but I actually don’t think that individual acts of street harassment are really heterosexist, because, as sophonisba said, “Street harassment is about THEIR heterosexuality.” (The obvious exception to this is, of course, when queer women are harassed for being queer, but that only happens to me when I’m with a girlfriend, and that isn’t quite what we’re talking about.)

    I actually find street harassment to be less heterosexist than more so-called “legitimate” pick-up lines, in bars for example, that carry behind them some kind of hope/presumption that I would actually consider going home with Mr. “Buy you a drink, beautiful?”. In situations like that, the man in question IS making presumptions about my sexuality, and I do feel like my queerness is erased in those situations, which makes the offense felt qualitatively different than when similar situations happened to me as a straight woman. This is not at all to say that it goes with the territory of being straight and female to be hit on in bars, or that straight women don’t find that offensive – I know they do. But, that is a situation in which my sexuality is definitely part of the picture in a way that it doesn’t seem to be in the case of street harassment, the very point of which seems to be to erase any sort of desire/agency at all on the part of the woman.

    Whew! long comment. But I hope the distinction I’m trying to make was clear. I’d welcome your thoughts.

  50. On a completely different tack, HollabackNYC is an awesome website that encourages you to share your stories of being harassed… and to post pictures of the cretins who harass you. I think sharing this with my BF made him realise just how awful, humiliating and threatening this stuff can be.

  51. I was reading this article over someone’s shoulder on the el today. I figure that’s what they get for being so short… and reading the red eye, blech.

    http://redeye.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/red-071807-humpday,0,2794032.column?coll=red-columnists

    It has sortof a guy’s perspective, on trying to find a girlfriend, while taking public transit. I’m not overly impressed, but it was topical.

    I got reverse harassed by these two 12 year old boys a few weeks ago, where they were loudly discussing why they would not have sex with me. I seriously thought about turning around and asking what their mother’s would think about this kind of talk. (They know where I live as we see often eachother during our evenign commutes, so I left it.)

  52. When I was entering junior high, I cut my hair short. I looked like a small scrawny boy (no puberty for a couple more years). I was on vacation with another twelve-year-old friend in Italy and we got cat calls when we were out on our own – for both of us! I still have no idea how they figured out I was a girl. Weird, disturbing, etc.

    My favorite catcall story is from my friend J., a bearded guy with a ponytail. He was walking in Italy (no coincidence) when a convertible slowed up behind him, and the driver started cat-calling and talking to his back. J. was confused, but finally turned around to see where the noise was coming from. He said the look on the guy’s face when he realized he’d been coming onto a guy was priceless! He zoomed off.

    Catcall experiences are weird, a not-so-subtle reminder of the patriarchy. It definitely has an impact on me: the last time I wore a short skirt was in Boston. In less than one hour, two separate guys had proposed to me. I was totally baffled. They weren’t rude, so I asked one them: “you’re crazy: we don’t even know each other!” His answer was that we’d have time to do that. What a world.

    My current response mode is definitely more proactive: “Fuck you”, finger, stick tongue out, or if I’m feeling funny, “your mom says hi”, “did that make you feel manly? is that all it takes?” … I don’t think this is going away unless we take loud proactive stands against it. Which requires feeling safe enough, another story.

    On the queer side of the discussion, in New England, I got a lot of harassing comments from frat guys when I was with my boyfriend or male housemate, who both had long hair. So it definitely has something to do with controlling sexual boundaries, who gets to prey on whom.

  53. I don’t think it’s inevitably rude to comment on clothing. I’ve had people tell me that they like something I’m wearing, and I’ve always found it complimentary and not at all awkward or scary. On the other hand, that’s different from commenting on *how I look* wearing the clothing item, or on how I look in general. “I love your jacket”=cool with me. “Nice ass,” however framed=not cool. And so does “you have such a pretty face.”

  54. Me and my best friend have noticed a trend – you get more assholes yelling at you when you look like shit than when you look nice. Go out scowling and in sweatpants and they come out of the woodwork. My theory is that these guys see a girl who doesn’t care about what she looks like and they’re threatened, so the “catcalls” are a way to assert dominance and get her back in line.

    Raye, there’s something to this…but honestly I have seen so much sexual-based harassment of every kind of woman (straight, queer, young, old, white, of color, butch, femme) that I think harassers just use a different flavor of harassment for whatever type they’re harassing at the moment. What it ALL has in common is that it’s a way to assert dominance. I tend to get harassed a LOT, and while my reaction may be different from a femme queer’s because I am hetero, I imagine the flavor of harassment I receive is similar (unless I were walking down the street canoodling with a woman) – it’s based on the fact that I am petite, dressed femme, and ignore the shit out of men on the street. If i were a six-foot tall middle-aged woman I would get a different kind of heckling. Doesn’t matter – it’s still the same feeble attempt to assert dominance. The harasser knows that he has no relevance to the person he’s harassing, so dammit he’s going to force some relevance on her by getting a reaction of any kind. It’s a blind exercise of the privilege inherent in physical intimidation, pure and simply. Ignoring doesn’t always work, nor does talking back, whether in anger or in a calm, rational way. Though one time I did scare the bejeebus out of a harasser I had previously ignored every day when he finally felt emboldened enough by my silence to get in my space and try to block my path. I looked him straight in the eye and in my lowest, loudest, most menacing voice possible yelled “GET OUT OF MY SPACE.” He crossed the street whenever he saw me after that – probably because I think harassers target me because I am small and look totally unthreatening, and to turn around and act self-aware and ready to defend myself shocked him. (important distinction – I would never threaten a harasser directly. you never know when you’ll get a psycho)

    Much as I do think that the “you look nice today” comments are not-so-innocent, as long as they are delivered with what I perceive to be respect and do not involve any mention of my body parts, I acknowledge them in a cordial, businesslike tone of voice and move on. The other day some men on the street made a show of watching me pass and said “good morning, miss.” (Why I still get this kind of sexualized attention being seven months pregnant I have no idea – I thought the troglodyte catcalling types wouldn’t find a piece of noticeably ‘used goods’ attractive – oh noez, she sexed with SOMEONE! Teh Slut!) I responded with a good-natured but very formal “good morning” and a slight nod of the head – didn’t face them, didn’t smile directly at them, but acknowledged their comment. What I did not do was return the sexual tone of the initial comment they made to me. I made it clear that, while I bore them no grudge (because they had not crossed the line), I was not going to play their game.

  55. Well, I’m asexual, so I’m not interested in anyone and not looking to have anyone interested in me. So I dress pretty much however I feel like dressing, which means dressing fairly conservative (I get cold) or dressing up when I feel like I want to dress up in something more interesting (still fairly covered up, though, even if it’s layers of PVC or whatever). So I’m never dressed like I’m “asking for it,” but somehow people decide I must be anyway. Amazing how it doesn’t even matter what you’re wearing to be considered “asking for it.” (That’s sarcasm.)

    Mostly, in my experience, the harassment is intended to get my attention, and when I … lack giving a shit, the response is rather hostile. I guess it’s because the harassment is never like catcalling or “NICE ASS!” but more of an “I’m trying to pick you up by being a creepy dude” thing. So when I express that I’m not interested, the reaction is that I’m an ugly bitch and blah blah blah he was never really interested anyway. And if I am openly indifferent, it’s worse. Or if I make snide comments. Or if I tell them to fuck off.

    Online I get that kind of shit too. All I have to say is “goodbye” for the hostile sexual comments to come out. The anonymity and safety of the internet brings forth the true colors of these guys who feel they can verbally dominate any woman who rejects them. What a sad, insecure little world they live in.

  56. Slight elaboration: when I say “delivered with respect,” I mean delivered with at least a show of, or paying lipservice to, respect. There’s every likelihood there’s no respect whatsoever and I understand that, but as long as they understand there’s a line and don’t cross it, I let it go.

  57. Thistle, Oh how I hate “You have such a pretty face.” I always want to respond with something like “You know you have a really nice lower body.” Seriously… WHAT? And I love the way they say it to me it always sounds like they are dying to add “You have such a pretty face, if only you weren’t such a fatty.”

    But people compliment my purse all the time and I don’t mind. Sometimes they just comment to people they are with, or they tell me, but either way, it’s an accessory, no big deal, I’ll even tell you where I got it!

  58. I’m never so happy walking down the street as when I’m listening to my iPod and can’t hear a thing harassers say to me. It’s always a mild shock to me when I don’t have my headphones on and I actually hear men saying anything from “Hey Pretty Eyes” as I walk past to “Looking sexay, babe! Yeah!” and so on and so forth, ad nauseam. Then there’s the classic “Can I get a blow job?” from pubescent boys determined to assert themselves. Blegh!

    Really, life has become much brighter and sweeter since I got an iPod. I love it. Insults and catcalls vanish away. Until my batteries run out, that is.

    The whole compliment vs. insult debate is very interesting. In my mind, for some reason, complimenting a person’s shirt slogan is very different from telling a girl she’s got pretty eyes–in fact, the two exist in very different categories. Telling a woman she’s beautiful is not appreciated, for me, even when the compliment is calmly and respectfully given. Telling a woman she’s got an awesome shirt/bracelet/hat/whatever is, however, okay, for some odd reason. Hmm.

  59. In my mind, for some reason, complimenting a person’s shirt slogan is very different from telling a girl she’s got pretty eyes–in fact, the two exist in very different categories. Telling a woman she’s beautiful is not appreciated, for me, even when the compliment is calmly and respectfully given. Telling a woman she’s got an awesome shirt/bracelet/hat/whatever is, however, okay, for some odd reason. Hmm.

    I don’t think that’s odd at all- I think it makes total sense, and I agree ith you completely- I think that it’s possible to intend a compliment sincerely, but I think that there’s too much room for misunderstanding to make it okay to give compliments about about a person’s body to strangers. I’ve definitely seen people who had extraordinary eyes, and I might remark quietly to my companion “Wow, she had really remarkable eyes,” but given that I don’t know that person, I think it’d be highly inappropriate to say that to the person.

    After all, even if I mean the remark as a compliment, I don’t know anything about the sort of day that she’s having. Maybe she’s really sensitive about her eyes. Maybe she’s already had six assholes remark about her eyes. Maybe she constantly gets people complimenting her eyes, but she doesn’t even like them that much. While some women might find it complimenting, I think that a lot of women might also find it unsettling or troubling. In other words, it stands a good chance of making someone uncomfortable.

    I think that one of the major differences between complimenting a woman’s, say, purse and her eyes/beauty/legs/other body parts, is that people have vastly more control over the clothes that they wear and buy than they do over their body parts. When you compliment a woman’s eyes, you’re making a remark about her body- something that she doesn’t, comparitively speaking, have a lot of control over. If you compliment the purse that she’s holding, or the shoes that she’s wearing, or the statement on her shirt, you’re noticing things that she specifically chose to purchase and present. As long as the compliment is sincere and presenting in a reasonable fashion, I think that it’s generally acceptable to say “Hey, that’s a clever shirt” or “I really like those shoes” or whatever.

    It’s the difference between complimenting her for being an object for your viewing pleasure (her body), and complimenting her choices/taste in objects.

    Does that make sense?

  60. Okay, I’m still reading through the comments, but I’m wondering now if it’s inappropriate when I, as a straight women, tap the shoulder of the woman standing next to me waiting for the light, and tell her ” I love your dress!’ or ‘You look absolutely awesome!’

    Is it okay because there is no power differential, and we’re the same gender (and I’m not interesting in women that way) or am I intruding on someone’s personal space? I do it because I, personally, like genuine compliments, from respectful people.

  61. JPlum, I don’t think it’s inappropriate for you to do that. I’ve gotten and appreciated compliments I’ve gotten from strange women. Usually, “Wow, I love that hairstyle” or “Cool bag; where’d you get it?”
    And I’ve complimented strangers before, too.
    But I’ve NEVER “complimented” a stranger by telling them their ass looks nice, or they have pretty eyes, or wonderful breasts.
    The two are COMPLETELY different.

  62. I suppose I’m lucky, but I’ve never really experienced much street harassment. Even though I’m a feminine straight woman, and not even when I was younger and prettier. However, I have witnessed it plenty of times with regard to other women.

    For instance, day before yesterday I was stopped at a light behind a car full of young-ish men and a young woman rode up on a bike. She stopped at the light and then prepared to make a right turn. The guys in the car started with the catcalling and generally being asses. The girl mostly ignored them and when they couldn’t get a rise out of her, they started throwing stuff and cussing. And then she rode off.

    It was absolutely infuriating and I was highly tempted to rear end them or get out and say something. I might have actually done it, too, if I didn’t have my young kids and elderly mother in law in the car at the time. And then, after, I had to explain to my five year old son “why those boys were being so mean to that girl” without resorting to profanity or name calling.

  63. JPlum, i was thinking about that, and i think it ‘works’ coming from one woman to another (assuming it’s done nicely) because the tone is invariably perceived as, at worst, implying ‘i’d like to look like that’.

  64. I’ll add an addendum to my comment. I don’t get much in the way of street harassment, but I’m a substitute teacher and I definitely get it in the schools. I don’t know exactly why, but teenage boys, especially older ones, (but I also get this from the 12-14 year old set), and for some reason even more especially the non-white ones, like to assert themselves by verbally (and sometimes physically) harassing any female in sight. When I’m at work, I can’t go even a single class period without some kid commenting on my ass or my legs or some other body part and coming on to me.

    It definitely gets old, but I still don’t really feel all that threatened, because as soon as I make it clear that that sort of behavior will not be tolerated in any classroom I’m the boss of, they very suddenly become very respectful.

  65. Shinobi, I hate it too, SO MUCH. As it happens, I don’t get a lot of comments on my body–but I get, “You have such a pretty face” and “You have such pretty eyes” and, my personal favorite, people telling me that I should smile and/or how pretty my smile is. I almost always find these comments to be incredibly creepy, but they’re framed in a way that makes them really hard to object to.

  66. Catcalls on the street are something I’ve experience since I was 11 (I’m 24 years old). I’ve always ignored it or like Willa I pretend that I don’t hear them because I’m listening to my ipod or other music listening device that I’ve had in the past. Its infuriating and usually I’m trying to come to grips with the fact that it is actually occurring at all. I wish I could go back in time and ask all of the men who have catcalled and sexually harassed me over the years if they’d want their moms or sisters or girlfriends or other female relatives to be subjected to the same things. Maybe the next time it happens I will ask that if I emerge out of my brain freeze in time.

    What I also hate is when you tell a friend or in my case my mother about these incidents they accuse you of being oversensitive and try to justify it in terms of “Well you were wearing a tank top and a short skirt”. Why does that even matter?! I too have also been catcalled when I had the flu and was on my way to the doctor’s office and other times when I don’t look that great and its hard not to blame yourself for it happening rather than realizing that just because you left your house doesn’t give anyone the right to victimize you.

    I never thought to look at it in the way of men attempting to assert dominance over me by virtue of being female but it definitely explains that icky feeling I get in my stomach and why I want to just run home and bury myself in my comforter so I feel safe again.

  67. Thistle, I remember reading an article a while ago about how the smile can be a sign of submission, of concedeing power to another part, or of being nonthreatening. It seems like that is why men frequently encourage total strangers to smile. I can’t seem to locate it, but it was very interesting. Since then I have taken requests to smile much differently than I used to.

  68. I have to say that I- like most other peopleo n this thread, it seems- agree that there is a dofference between complimenting a woman on her body vs. complimenting her clothes/handbag/whatever. But this brings me to another question: what are your opinions on commenting on someone’s body art? I have definitely stopped people on the T to tell them that I think their tattoo is beautiful, or that their 00 gage ear plug is fantastic. As far as I know, no one has been offended by my comments, but does something as personal/physically intimate as a tattoo count as complimenting someone’s body, or is it more similar to complimenting someone’s clothing?

  69. I feel kinda torn, here.

    I would prefer that, if a person is interested in me, they come up ad talk to me, ask my name, introduce themselves, strike up a conversation. If I’m interested, physical compliments can come later, in a more intimate setting. As it happens, I’m never interested, because I’m a-taken and b-not into meeting people that way, regardless of any other factors.

    But at the same I am incredibly dense when it comes of this sort of thing. If a guy comes up to me and yells “nice tits, love!” or “I’d have some of THAT!” then I know that here comes another arsehole. Similarly, if a guy comes up and says “I just anted to tell you I think you look lovely” then I know that here’s a guy who is interested in me, so I can make it clear I’m not looking for some one.

    But when a guy comes up and does start talking politely, which I prefer if he feels he really must talk to me, I usually can’t tell whether he’s interested in me as a potential partner, or just thinks look interesting and wants to chat (I’ve made a few geeky male friends this way- they saw the geeky-tshirt/warhammer shopping bag/new PC game and came over to chat about it). Then, when I politely talk to them, and suddenly they make their intentions more clear, I’m this bitch for “leading them on”.

    Which is a shame because I like making new friends and I feel like I have to brush off everyone in order to avoid harrassment.

    So, I think after that long-winded and rambling-all-over-the-subject ramble, what I’m trying to say is, where do we draw the lines?

  70. Cassie, I knew it! I knew it had to have happened somewhere! Down in St. Petersburg, Florida, the harassment is especially bad. I spent a summer there about ten years ago. The assholes just holler at anything they think even might be female. After wondering just how the perverts even knew I was female (baggy clothes, not a lot of curves), it occurred to me that at least one carload of morons had almost certainly inadvertantly harrassed a longhaired guy at some point in their pervert careers.

  71. Then, when I politely talk to them, and suddenly they make their intentions more clear, I’m this bitch for “leading them on”.

    And if you awkwardly work a mention of a boyfriend/girlfriend into the conversation to avoid that, you’re a stuck-up bitch because they didn’t even ask you yet, they were just having a conversation, how dare you assume they were interested.

  72. Although I DEFINITELY understand how many women find all unwanted “compliments” and catcalls upsetting, I think you have to draw the line somewhere. When an elderly man at my church tells me I’m looking lovely or that I’m a pretty lady, I’m not going to respond in the same way that I would if a guy on the street catcalls me. However, let me say that if the eldely guy is really leering when he says that, I would not respond positively.

    I also think it can be very dangerous, in some situations, for any woman, feminine, butch, or androgynous to respond by confronting a man. Did you all happen to notice how Maggie Hadleigh-West said “a number of times they tried to hit me”?

  73. I live in a great neighborhood, but for some reason this stuff is rampant here. What I hate most is the guys who drive by at 40 MPH and yell something–someone called me a “bitch” the other day. It was so pathetic and cowardly, so clearly an attempt to make this loser feel better about himself by reasserting his superiority over women in general. I’ve gotten homophobic comments (some from women) and those of the “nice tits” variety on the same street. I hate the comments, but more than that I hate that they’ve taken away my opportunity to respond. Some teenage boys rode by a friend and I this fall on bikes, calling out something along the lines of “hey, ladies!” “Hey, twelve-year-old boys,” I called back. They indignantly yelled back their real ages while my friend and I laughed. I loved that feeling–that they’d tried to assert their status as dominant “men” and that I hadn’t let them.

    I really, really don’t know what compels people to holler out of their cars. If you’re planning on telling me what a nice ass I have, surely you want to give me the opportunity to tell you just what I think of you in return!

  74. reading this thread caused flashbacks to when i lived in NYC 15 years ago. i remember the harrassment, and i never got used to it, never was able to ignore it or let it roll off my back. it bugged me every time it happened, which was, i suppose, the point.

    (where i live now, street harrassment doesn’t happen.)

    the issue of compliments is an interesting one. i’m a firm believer that a well-intentioned compliment is never inappropriate. someone responded above that they don’t like being put in a position of mindreader, how are they to what the perpetrator’s intentions are, &c.

    my take on that is that there are non-verbal as well as verbal cues going on. the statement “you look very nice today” can be delivered in a nice way or a threatening way or any way in between. and i (personally) can’t help but be sensitive to the non-verbal cues as well as the verbal cues.

    so the question is: did what that person just say & how they said it make me feel good, or do i feel squicky & degraded? the vast majority of the time that strangers (& by strangers, i mean strange het MEN) would speak to me on the street, it felt gross. but not always; occasionally someone would say something in such a polite, respectful, and kind manner that it would kinda make my day.

    (n.b. i’m shallow & vain. i enjoy compliments on my appearance. acknowledged.)

    however,i don’t think that those types of incidents are what allows tha harrassers to get away with what they’re doing. people attempting to be genuinely kind to each other, even if the way they go about it is ignorant or misguided, does not perpetuate cruelty. not in my world view anyway.

    one thing i can allow is this: there’s a whole deconstruction to the “you look nice” compliment/assertion. it’s about my clothes & grooming, but it’s also about my body/face/hair/eyes. more importantly, and i hadn’t thought about this until reading the original post, it does (unfortunately) sort of perpetuate the sexism and classism behind harrassment. i.e. if i present “nicely”, that means i’m a “nice” woman, a lady, someone of higher social class and social status; not someone who is to be harrassed.

    so the compliment of looking “nice” is the other side of the coin to the catcalls of “nice &ss” &c. i get that.

    but if it’s something that is offered up in kindness, i’m able to get past that.

  75. It’s the difference between complimenting her for being an object for your viewing pleasure (her body), and complimenting her choices/taste in objects.

    Roy, that sums it up perfectly for me.

    Then, when I politely talk to them, and suddenly they make their intentions more clear, I’m this bitch for “leading them on”.

    And if you awkwardly work a mention of a boyfriend/girlfriend into the conversation to avoid that, you’re a stuck-up bitch because they didn’t even ask you yet, they were just having a conversation, how dare you assume they were interested.

    You have just summed up every awkward conversation I have ever had with a guy. What’s really embarrassing is when I have a boyfriend/girlfriend and feel silly for mentioning it right away, keep quiet about it until it then feels awkward bringing it up at all, so I end up actually never mentioning my bf/gf at all to a person for the entire duration of our “friendship”/whatever (these used to be guys I met in class at college, and are usually now guys at work, oh God, or neighbors). Very, very awkward.

    Probably people with much better social skills know how to finesse the “not interested/taken” line. I have yet to do so without the guy getting embarrassed or mad.

  76. You know, not every man alive feels a need to control everything.

    You mean like a guy who’d try to derail the discussion into being about the type of man that we weren’t even talking about to begin with?

  77. Probably people with much better social skills know how to finesse the “not interested/taken” line. I have yet to do so without the guy getting embarrassed or mad.

    I never ever actually do the, “yeah, that is a good movie, MY BOYFRIEND thinks so too” thing, for two reasons: one, it’s a lot more humiliating for me to assume someone’s interested when he’s not than to assume that he isn’t when he is, and women in general (and me in particular) do far, far, far too much worrying about other people’s potential social embarrassment, at the expense of concern for our own. My advice to every woman is, let him worry about his own embarrassment. You worry about your own. And being interested in someone who’s already partnered isn’t even humiliating, anyway, unless you already feel entitled; everyone does it, it’s not a faux pas, just a disappointment.

    And my second reason is, my boyfriend is not a shield or a protector or an owner. When I was single, the best way for a guy to shoot himself down before starting was to ask me “Do you have a boyfriend?” when his real question was, “Would you like to go out with me?” It’s insulting. Also heterosexist. I especially detest when women feel like they have to lie and say they have a boyfriend when they don’t, rather than just saying no thank you, because a woman’s own reasons can’t be good enough without a man to back her up.

    And my third reason is, a guy who is interested in purely casual sex and nothing more will say so up front, and there will be no confusion. But if he’s talking to me because he wants to go out with me, like potentially get to be my boyfriend, he must like me as a person, he must want to be my friend, in addition to wanting to have sex with me. So there is no possible way he could accuse me of wasting his time in conversation because I didn’t pre-emptively turn him down for a date, unless he is a monumental jackass, because a normal person likes to talk to an interesting and likable person even if he can’t fuck her. And I don’t care about the hurt feelings of monumental jackasses.

  78. Even if a girl looks like she “wants attention,” anonymous man, it doesn’t necessarily mean she wants attention from you.

  79. I haven’t read the comments, but wanted to just note that my quite genderqueer partner who often passes as a man gets more sexist street harrassment that I do. I think you are absolutely right that this street harrassment of genderqueer folks is to point out “Hey, I know you are still a girl, and I just wanted to make sure you know that I know that I have the power in this situation.”

  80. Qedeshet, I don’t have body art, but I would think that would be more or less similar to complimenting jewelry or clothing–it’s something the person has chosen, and when you compliment it, you’re complimenting his or her taste or artistry, not necessarily the body part it’s adorning.

  81. Ooooooh, this topic chaps my ass…

    I’m straight and almost cartoonishly feminine. I’ve been all lips, hips and boobs since I was about twelve, so I really can’t recall a period of my life when I wasn’t getting catcalled. I’ve been catcalled and harrased by all ages, ethnicities, income classes, etc. I’ve been followed, grabbed, yelled at, you name it. For better or worse, I have difficulty not responding to the harassment with a dirty look, or a healthy eff-off-and-die if I’m feeling particularly salty. I’m honestly not sure what response would be appropriate. Does anyone have advice on how to respond in this sort of situation?

    Also, in my experience (to echo a previous sentiment), I do get catcalled more when I look frumpy. When I’m in a suit and heels with my briefcase, I get the looks, but no calls. Also, the catcalls have increased with the addition of a wedding ring. And as a pleasant aside, the same dude who catcalled me every day for 1.5 YEARS when I walked to the train now calls me “ma’am” and tells me to have a nice day. The difference? My husband now walks with me. Douchesack.

  82. I once tried to use my queerness to fend off a guy who was trying to grope me on the train. He kept trying to get me to come sit next to him–I told him I was on my way to meet my girlfriend thinking that the implication that I was lesbian would get him to leave me alone (I’m actually bi, but no sense trying to explain that to him). Boy was I wrong. He kept groping me anyway and told me my girlfriend could come join us. Yuck! Unfortunately being queer in no way exempts you from harassment, and in fact, might cause more. I’m certainly not going to use it as a defense again–not only because it’s apparently ineffective, but because hate crime statistics scare me! And you never know when street harassment could turn violent.

  83. Thistle, I remember reading an article a while ago about how the smile can be a sign of submission, of concedeing power to another part, or of being nonthreatening. It seems like that is why men frequently encourage total strangers to smile. I can’t seem to locate it, but it was very interesting. Since then I have taken requests to smile much differently than I used to.

    Argh. A few weeks ago a drunk homeless man saw me walking down the street. I looked nice, like a good upper-middle class girl should when going to a film festival at a wine bar. There were no other people around except another drunk homeless man (the two were enjoying each other’s company, I guess), and I got the good old “Smile! You’re beautiful.”
    I. Hate. This. For this exact reason you say, Shinobi. It’s all about men asserting their dominance over me–like, clearly I have the power class-wise, but since no man can be happy with a woman being not-submissive to him, he had to assert that he could tell me what to do with my body. And describing this to most people, they wouldn’t think it was that big of a deal–but telling me to smile isn’t as innocuous as just that, it’s obnoxious and threatening because it’s essentially his way of asserting that he has a right to control my body.

    And when my response was a dirty look (I have this perfected, it’s positively testicle-withering) and a roll of the eyes, I got the classic “Oh, it’s that time of the month I see!” etc. Just reminding me that I have no control over my body OR my emotions, since clearly it’s either controlled by a man (be it a drunk guy on the street) or those crazy Wimmin Emotions!!

    God. This rarely happens to me, probably because of the perma-bitchface I wear in public, but I am still seething about this incident weeks later.

  84. Thanks to everyone who has made this such a dynamic conversation. I’m especially grateful to read what queer, gender non-conforming and trans folks have had to write, since, like I said first, I rarely hear those voices in these conversations. I’m only sad that I haven’t been able to keep up with and respond to more of the comments – I’m not used to getting this many, I guess!

    Just read Alie’s comment, though, and wanted to ask – Alie, how do you think that your class and housing perceptions of the man who harassed you were important to the story and what you wrote? I know that you acknowledge class and power differences, but it still made me cringe a little. Then again, would it have been better if you had left out reference to class entirely, thereby making the class and power differential invisible? I don’t know…

  85. A bit tangiential, but can someone explain, or direct me to someplace that explains, genderqueer, transguy, transwoman etc? Is a transguy someone who started off as a guy, but is now a girl, or the other way around? I know, I know, I could look it up, but I’m concerned about the hits I’d end up getting. And I’m trying to protect my computer from things like pornography-she’s less than six months old, a bit young to be exposed to that kind of thing.

  86. JPlum – looking up most things in search engines like Google won’t yield porn sites first – that includes looking up words like genderqueer, trans man, and trans woman. Interesting that you would think it would… anyhow, this site looks like it has good definitions, though I haven’t read the whole thing and there’s no real “authority” on what every identity means, exactly.

  87. Maybe this thread is dying down now, but I’m also curious (if it isn’t too far off-topic) about what JW asked about in 24: -is- there anything men can do to help, aside from Not Doing This and acknowledging that it’s really bad?

    I’m embarrassed to admit that I only started to become aware of how big a problem this is fairly recently, and so I’ve been wondering. This morning, for example, I was walking to the subway and right about when I passed by a woman, a guy sitting in a parked van made some remark to her. I felt ashamed to just walk by, as if I didn’t notice he was being an asshole, but also couldn’t bring myself to say anything.

    On the one hand, I think there are good reasons why confronting other men in situations like this might not help at all–as the original post and some comments have noted, most harassers simply won’t acknowledge their behavior as wrong, and there’s a non-trivial chance of violence. On the other hand, is that just cowardice speaking?

  88. On the one hand, I think there are good reasons why confronting other men in situations like this might not help at all–as the original post and some comments have noted, most harassers simply won’t acknowledge their behavior as wrong, and there’s a non-trivial chance of violence. On the other hand, is that just cowardice speaking?

    If were talking about men calling out other men for this cat calling, I dont know what to think. On the one hand, I would love to walk over and head butt a harasser. On the other, I cant help but get this vomit-inducing “girls hero” thing out of my mind.

    I by no means want to put out of a message of “its a womens problem, she should deal with it”. However, like I said, if its about men calling out other men on this harassment, I cant help but get a feeling that its a whole lot better that women stand up to it themselves. You know, when its talking about how these guys do it BECAUSE they feel they are better than the women they shout out to, like its their RIGHT to do it. Like I said, Id imagine its better women show these guys they are more than their equals, instead of some other guy.

    I thought about comments where its “cat calling” when women are with their partners. I couldnt help wonder if people would be torn over reacting because they dont like their partner being treated that way, or holding back because they wouldnt want to patronise their partner by fighting their battles.

    Maybe thats just me, but between the anger, I certainly would consider that idea.

    I do hope I didnt misunderstand though, and that you were definitely talking about men calling out other men for harassment?

  89. I’ve gotten to where I just keep my phone handy – I’ve just moved into a downtown area, and when I get that long, funny look from a dude (and it’s always some dude just sitting around with nothing better to do with his life than sit and pretend that he has some power in this world), I just threaten to call the cops.

    I had some dude call me crazy the other day (“Hey, go back to crazy town! I wasn’t looking at you!”) for telling him to stop staring at me. As though I couldn’t see where his eyes were going.

    Seriously, in most cities, street harassment is a crime. Women are well within their rights to call 911 and get a car out when some asshole is sitting around doing his damndest to make all the females around uncomfortable.

    * * *

    In short, thanks for posting on this, Jack!

  90. i personally would love to see men call each other out on the harrassment, and think that it’s a critical element to solving the problem. but that’s just me, though.

  91. All this “but I was just giving you a compliment” stuff is a crock. Funny how an uncontrollable urge to compliment me never takes over when I’m walking down the street with a straight-looking guy. (Personally, I don’t think it’s ever OK to compliment a random stranger on their body if you don’t know them.)

    The politics of it are fascinating. Frat Boy types don’t seem to quite know what to do with me: I’m feminine looking, slender with (artificially) straight, blonde-streaked hair… but also unambiguously Black. Generally, they’ll just make a little show of gawking as they pass, but it takes a lot of shotgunned beers before one of them will actually come over and mumble something about how they’ve always thought black chicks were hot.

  92. Thanks, Jack-I just assumed, given the amount of porn out there, that if you are looking for stuff related to things like sexual identity, you would get things related to the ‘sex’ part.

  93. I live in Melbourne in Aus and I’ve never had that big a problem with street harassers in the cat-call way. I have recently had moments with random men on trains trying to start a conversation. Around 11pm riding on a train with one other girl friend is not a good time to go up to them and try to start a conversation. The only way I know to react to this is to give very short, one worded replies in a polite tone, I’m too scared that if I give a more proactive ‘wtf go away’ response or to just ignore them in case they get angry/violent and I hate that I basically have no option but to indulge them till they get the hint or my stop comes up.

  94. And then I always think – how do visually feminine women, who get way more of this than me, deal? How do femmes and other feminine queer women handle that on the daily?

    Saltyfemme answered this one so well. Please let me add my two cents.

    As a femme, I am doubly enraged on the street. One, because some asshole invalidates my identity as a queer femme and assumes my heterosexuality and two because he thinks he has the right in the first place to harass me.

    I hate it. HATE IT. I am a big stompy boot badass high femme and the ONLY TIME I ever feel safe wearing the clothes I really want to wear, the ones I love that make me feel like myself are when I go to queer quasi safe spaces like dyke events or queer parties. And even then I get men leering and drooling all over me.

    It’s disgusting. The unmitigated gall, the insane amount of privilege that men assert all fucking over me every single day I walk on the street or drive my car makes me insane. And I fight and yell and call people out as long as I can and then I retreat into my safe little silent ignoring shell until I’m strong enough to come out again and fight.

    This is NOT about men appreciating or liking women. I’ve certainly had nice men compliment me and I’ve taken it for what it was: a polite compliment. I can appreciate that .01% of the population that talks to me on the street. The rest of them? They are, at best, clueless privileged shitheads and at worst, raging misogynist assholes bent on destroying the self-esteem of all women, one walking vagina at a time.

  95. One thing men can do to help-notice other men noticing women. Watch men as they leer at a woman walking by. Make sure the man knows that you see him. I am female, but I’ve been doing this lately. Just so these men know that someone is watching them too. Watch them as they look a woman up and down, and try to catch their eye, and maybe shake your head or something.

    If a man is yelling at a woman or harassing her-just say something, anything! Say “hey that’s not cool man.” Men can have a HUGE impact on other men-way more than women have.

    I don’t need/want some guy coming to “save me” from harassment, but it would be nice to not feel so alone with it. For someone else, especially a man, to acknowledge it. Even if you just roll your eyes in the asshole’s direction and shake your head, at least that tells the woman being harassed that you are on her side. Or, just ask the woman if she needs help. That way she can decide what she needs.

  96. baby, you’re so pretty, why don’t you smile more? i mean, i am a MAN interested in you, so don’t you feel like i deserve for you to show some interest?

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