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Another Post on Children: A Lesbian Couple, Sperm Donation, and Me…

Roy

I was reading this article from the Washington Post earlier today, and thinking about the situation that this guy is in. It makes me wonder how common these sorts of situations are. I think that most of us, by now, realize how uncommon the Nuclear Family is. We have families with step-children and half-brothers and extended families that live in the same house and same-sex families and even families like this, where it’s a same-sex couple and a “daddy” who isn’t in a romantic relationship with either mommy. I think it’s great that he’s able to have this kind of relationship with his friends’ children. His children.

On the other hand, I want to ask him how he feels about the situation in general. He answers the question “do you have children” really well, and I get that he’s really proud and happy to be a part of these children’s lives, but this is a guy who wanted children of his own, and while it’s great that he was able to do this, part of me wants to ask him what it’s like on a day-to-day basis. How hard is it to not be able to be there for them? How difficult is it to be in a situation like that, where you’re the father, but they’re not your children?

But, an even bigger part of me wants to know what it would have been like if he didn’t want children of his own. How would he handle his role in the lives of children if he’d never wanted children of his own? How would that feel to see a child that is biologically yours, but that you don’t have any fatherly claim to?

Because, as it turns out, I might find out for myself, and I’ve got questions, and for every question I have, I worry that there are at least six others I’m missing.

When I went to visit my friends Jenny* and Beth** at their home yesterday, I wasn’t expecting them to ask me if I’d help them start a family. I knew we’d be playing some games, and I figured we might watch some television or a movie. I knew that Jenny was planning on making me dinner, and I figured that there was a good possibility we’d spend a lot of time laughing. Jenny and Beth are great, and I love them dearly- I’ve known them since my first year away at college, and I count myself lucky to know them, and to be a part of their lives. I was there the first time they met, and I helped them move after they bought their first house. They’re absolutely wonderful, and I was overjoyed to learn that they plan on starting a family soon. I know that they’ll make absolutely wonderful parents, and that any child will be lucky to have them as mothers.

Like the article’s auther, Jenny had joked with me before about the possibility of my donating the sperm for potential children, but that was years ago, and I’d mostly forgotten about it. When they started talking seriously about having children, it wasn’t the first thing that popped into my head. Now that they’ve asked, I’m thrilled and terrified by the prospect.

We’re still talking about all the details, and nothing is set in stone, yet. The first thing we’d do is get a legal agreement drawn up making the nature of the relationship clear: I’d relinquish any parental rights over the child, and Jenny and Beth would give up any rights to child support. Legally, my only role would be in supplying the genetic material. But, these aren’t random people, and I’m not a stranger. I’d still be a part of this child’s life- these are two very important people in my life, and I’m not going to stop seeing them.

Which leads to some of the tough questions around this. Is this a good idea? After all, at some point, the child is likely to wonder who hir father is. I don’t think it’s a good idea to lie to children. Children have a right to know who their parents are, I think, and Jenny and Beth agree. So, they child would know that I’m hir biological father. But, Jenny and Beth aren’t looking for a co-parent. Which is great. I don’t want children, and I don’t really want to co-parent. They’re hoping I’ll play more of the role of uncle to the child. I’d be Uncle Roy- I’d be the man that helped them start the family, and I’d provide a male role-model, but I wouldn’t be a father, I’d be hir mommys’ friend, and hir uncle.

And I love being an uncle. My sister had a beautiful daughter 3 years ago, and I love my niece dearly. She’s a great kid. I love that I’m her cool uncle, and I love that I’ve already started to get her interested in computers and video games. Being an uncle is fun. How is it going to feel to be the uncle to a child that is biologically mine, though? How will the child feel when sie finds out that I’m the biological father? And, of course, my parents think that being grandparents is great too. I hadn’t really thought about this, but Jenny mentioned “and if your parents want to be involved in the child’s life, that’d be okay too.” I’m not even sure how I’d approach that. Tell them? Don’t tell them? I’m not sure yet.

Now, like I said, nothing is set in stone. I’m still thinking about it, and while I’m leaning towards saying “yes” right now, we’ve still got more talking to do. After all, I feel okay about it right now, but how will I feel in 8 years when the child wants to know hir father? How will I feel in 18 years? Obviously, I won’t know until I’m there, but I’m still coming up with questions and we’re still talking about the process.

Which is where you come in, fellow feministe readers. Here’s where I beg you for information.

Have any of you been through this or know someone that has? If you know someone who donated to a friend, what was the experience like for him? What was it like for the couple? For the child? Any questions that are must-ask that I may have missed? Any advice?
Stories?
Cautionary tales?

*Not her real name.
**Not her real name, either.

(cross posted at No Cookies For Me)

65 thoughts on Another Post on Children: A Lesbian Couple, Sperm Donation, and Me…

  1. This sounds like a bad idea, personally. Being biologically related obviously has a lot of emotional weight for you, which may become more complicated and even painful for you over time. Maybe it’d be better if they found an anonymous sperm donor.

  2. Actually, that’s my question- I don’t have children, and I don’t know anyone who has been in a situation like this.

    I’m probably going to love their child no matter where it comes from- if they adopt, or get a donor from a bank, or whatever. That the sperm comes from me raises questions. And, yeah, that the child is related to me in some way will probably carry some weight, but is that necessarily a bad thing?

    In what ways do you see it becoming painful or complicated?

    These are the sorts of things I guess I’m wondering and need to know about. Honestly, I was thinking that the biological attachment would be a good thing, not a bad. I don’t want children, but I think that it’d be nice for Jenny and Beth to be able to explain why they picked the person they did, and for the donor to be involved as a loving role-model, even if it’s not as a daddy, so that the child knows that the biological father is someone that cares about hir, too. But, maybe you’re right- maybe there are areas that it could be painful or complicated. Were you thinking of something specific or just generally?

  3. I second Kelsey–I think it sounds like you have too much attachment to the situation. Though it will biologically be your child, it won’t be your child, and it sounds like you’re having some trouble with that idea. For example, will it be hard for you to watch someone else raise “your child”? What if they move away? What of the child? Will it be hard for hir to have a dad, but not to have a dad at the same time? What of your parents? Will it be hard for them?

    I do know one couple who specifically went with an anonymous donor due to these issues. I know of other couples who have had verrrrrry mixed success with friend-donors. It seems like it’s either really good or really bad.

  4. I do know people who have done this, and for whom it has worked well. Unfortunately, they’re more friends of a friend than they are my friends, so I don’t know a lot of details of how they went about doing it, what exactly the man’s involvement is, whether his family knows, etc.

    It’s something I have thought about for myself, as I get older, because I know I want children very much, and I’m not sure that I want a partner. For me, the problem is that any man I feel close enough to that I want to use his sperm to make a baby is a man I feel close enough to that I don’t want to endanger our friendship by altering it so drastically. But that’s me; that’s not you and your friends.

    There are ways in which knowing the dad could be really important. Practically, it will be far easier for the kid healthwise, knowing what his/her risks are genetically. But more than that, there will be a connection that’s understandable. Biology shows up in weird ways, in habits, in resemblances, in tastes, and knowing where those come from and being able to connect with someone about them can really be a wonderful feeling.

    I can see the potential for a lot of awkwardness, though. I just don’t know.

  5. The first thing we’d do is get a legal agreement drawn up making the nature of the relationship clear: I’d relinquish any parental rights over the child, and Jenny and Beth would give up any rights to child support.

    Before we even get to the emotional stuff, you need to talk to a lawyer in your state who specializes in family law, preferably one who works with the GLBT community. Because it’s all too easy to “draw up a legal agreement” that turns out not to match your state’s laws, or does something you later don’t want it to.

    I think it’s great that you want to help this couple, but a very very bad idea to assume that you are going to be “uncle”. Legally, your relationship to the child will be entirely on the whims of his or her mothers. Do you want to take that risk? Do you want your role as a sort-of-daddy to depend on that kind of goodwill?

  6. I see what you’re saying, mythago, but all relationships to children are based on the whims of their parents. There has been recent movements for grandparents’ “rights,” but they’ve met with limited success. I didn’t meet an entire side of my family, including grandparents and actual aunts and uncles, until I was 13 because of family rifts and my father’s decisions; it doesn’t seem to me that Roy’s situation in that respect would be any different from his situation with his current niece.

  7. If I were in your situation (and it’s been broached as a possibility for the future), I’d want to hash out every hypothetical I could think of. Would you have custody if they both died while the child was young? How would you handle it if they made parenting decisions that you had major moral objections to? How would how would you (all) handle it if the kid played you off against each other as an adolescent?

    You can’t definitively answer all of these questions in advance, of course, but thinking about and talking about possible answers can tell you a lot about whether your approach and theirs is compatible, and about whether you’re ready to make this kind of commitment.

  8. When I said “draw up a legal agreement” that’s exactly what I meant, mythago. We’ve already agreed that the first thing we’d do, if I agree to this, is make sure that we’re air-tight legally.

    I’m not sure what you mean by assuming that my role will be uncle- that’s the role that the three of us have discussed. I don’t want to be a co-parent, and they don’t want a co-parent. At the same time, they’d like to have someone that can be directly involved in the child’s life, and I’m going to be, whether I’m the donor or not. Even if they adopt or go a different route, they’ve made it clear that they hope I’d be willing to take that role, and given my relationship with them, I can’t see how I wouldn’t.

    And, sure, my role would be at the whims of the mothers. That’s unavoidable, and understandable. Is it possible that something might happen to cause a rift between us? I suppose that’s possible- weirder things have surely happened, but it seems unlikely after almost a decade of friendship that we’re suddenly going to stop being as close as we are.

  9. I love the book The Kid by Dan Savage. It’s an autobiographical look at two gay men who enter into an open adoption with their son’s birth mother. Not quite the same situation, but it does get into a lot of the ins and outs of what having “three parents” means and how this type of relationship can/might work (legal agreements, emotional bonds/agreements). It’s also hilarious, so I really do recommend it.

    Also, thanks for sharing your personal story with us.

  10. Would you have custody if they both died while the child was young? How would you handle it if they made parenting decisions that you had major moral objections to? How would how would you (all) handle it if the kid played you off against each other as an adolescent?

    Ah! Thanks! These are exactly the sorts of questions I was looking for! I didn’t even think about that!

  11. Would you have custody if they both died while the child was young?

    Oooh, yes, because if you wouldn’t–say custody would go to grandparents–could they entail that whoever has custody continue to let play a role in the child’s life? And what if the child required serious care? Of course I want nothing for your friends but a healthy child, but that’s not always the case, sadly. In the even that the kid needed some kind of continuous, intensive care, what would you want to do? What would they expect you to do?

    Another issue would be around moving, I think. Do you or Jenny or Beth have the kind of job where you might have to pick up and move a long way away? How would that play out and what kind of feelings would it create? Which I guess feeds into your (future?) partner as well. I don’t know if you’re seeing someone, but if you are, or you find a partner in the future, and she has that kind of job, what does that mean for you?

    If the kid, God forbid, needs bone marrow or organ donation, would you be willing to do it? If not, how do Jenny and Beth feel about that?

    In some ways, I think the good thing is that because you can’t slot easily into a predefined role (hey, I’m The Father!), you have to give thought to these things, rather than just going with whatever’s assumed.

  12. Roy, you asked for people’s thoughts; that’s what I’m giving you. If what you want is only thoughts on why you really should do this and how you can get it to work in a relatively foolproof manner, say so and I’ll bow out.

    EC – having a legally-recognized relationship to a child is different than having none. Grandparents and aunts do not have “rights”, but they have recognized biological ties. If, God forbid, something happened to Roy’s niece or nephew, he would have a stronger claim to step up and be involved in that child’s life (foster parent, guardian, adoption) than a stranger, all else being equal. “Sperm donor” isn’t in one of those categories.

    Of course the child’s mothers could set up a guardianship agreement where they say that, if anything happens to them, they want Roy to have guardianship of their child. But they can’t dictate that whoever gets guardianship also has to let people A, B, and C play a role in their child’s life–there’s no way to say “Grandma has custody but ONLY if they let Roy stay the child’s uncle.” (Or vice versa, for that matter.)

    Is it possible that something might happen to cause a rift between us?

    The lawyerly answer is that anything’s possible. But are you seriously asking if it’s possible that the stresses of family life and co-parenting couldn’t cause a rift that ends a decade-long friendship? If all it took was a long, deep friendship and mutual affection for people to get along forever, there would be hundreds of thousands of family lawyers out of business.

  13. You’re welcome! Here’s another set:

    Having kids sometimes puts unanticipated stresses on strong marriages. How might a divorce affect your relationship with the kid? Friends often wind up taking sides in a divorce, whether they mean to or not — what if your friendship with the partner who gets primary custody winds up strained?

    You’ve said they’d sign away their rights to child support, but what if they wind up in financial difficulties? Even if they didn’t ask for help, you might feel obligated to assist — or just want to. That kind of commitment might have implications for your own family.

  14. Another question to consider might be how you would negotiate this with a family you might create in the future. I know from what you’ve said that you don’t want to have children, but what if you decide to make a life with a woman who already has them? (Obviously, if that’s a dealbreaker for you, then you don’t have to worry about this. But you never know…my stepfather didn’t want to have kids, and then he met my mom, and, well, now he’s someone I really turn to for love, help, advice, etc.) I guess in some ways it’s just an extension of the question of how you involve your family, but if other children come into the picture, do you bring them for playdates, how much do you explain, etc.

  15. Really great post, Roy.

    You were asking “How hard is it to not be able to be there for them?”

    I thought the author in the Washinton Post answered that question really well:

    Two years ago this month, I spoon-fed Samantha one of her first solid meals. At that point, I had already changed more diapers than some dads ever do, even if they live with their babies

    It seemed to me that he’s been there for the two girls (perhaps more than fathers who live with their children)

    I don’t know anyone who’s been in that exact situation. But a friend of mine agreed to donate sperm to another friend of mine, a single woman. They remain friends but the child lives with her mother. No contract was signed in this case. They just agreed to have a child together even though they don’t live together. The mother has full responsibility for the child, he is not paying child support but it’s no secret that he’s the father.

    Some of my lesbian friends decided to get sperm from a sperm bank. One couple got some extra sperm from the same donor frozen, which means that if/when they decide to have a second child, the two children will have the same father (and mother).

  16. Roy, you asked for people’s thoughts; that’s what I’m giving you. If what you want is only thoughts on why you really should do this and how you can get it to work in a relatively foolproof manner, say so and I’ll bow out.

    I didn’t say you were wrong to- in fact, I agreed completely with your suggestion to get a lawyer, and said that’s actually what I had meant. I’m delighted to hear everyone’s thoughts on this, but that doesn’t mean that I’m going to agree with all of them, or that I won’t have already considered certain aspects. I wasn’t saying you were wrong for your comments- I was just replying to them with thoughts of my own.

  17. I have several friends in variations on this situation, and being a young dyke who wants kids some day, I try to pay a LOT of attention to how stuff goes down in the queer families of my friends.

    First of all, this is a really good point: In some ways, I think the good thing is that because you can’t slot easily into a predefined role (hey, I’m The Father!), you have to give thought to these things, rather than just going with whatever’s assumed. One of the exciting/scary things about queer families is that there is necessarily space for this stuff to get discussed long before conception, since conception is rarely accidental. Don’t be scared off by all these issues- any person who participates in some parental or genetic way in the growing, birthing or raising of a child is going to have to face some of them at some point, and it’s better to do your homework early.

    Second of all: situations, people, economies & geographies CHANGE. A lot. Unpredictably. How are you going to deal with this? What if you have to move across the country? What if they have to? What if they split up? What if one of them tries to deny all access not just to you, but to the other co-parent? What if you draw up a seemingly-watertight agreement, and then the laws in your state or territory change and declare all your hard work retroactively void? What if a co-parent picks up and carries the child off to a state, territory or country that explicitly denies the other co-parent’s relationship with the child? What do you, the sperm donor, who in that state could probably claim full legal rights, do then? Intervene on behalf of the non-biological parent? Wash your hands of the situation?

    This sounds totally lame, but I reccommend role-playing it out with your friends. Come up with a list of “worst case scenarios” and take it from there. It is utterly unfair to a child NOT to plan for the worst case (while of course hoping & working for the best case), so while your mind is probably filled with fun mums+uncle Roy outings to science museums, picture yourself in an emergency room, both mums uncontactable, with a head nurse wanting to know who on earth you are. Etc.

    Personally, I don’t think the ambiguity of your role as uncle/dad is necessarily a problem- I’ve seen it work. My little mate J is five years old and completely unfazed by having two mummies houses plus a dad who lives in another state, who he sees at Christmas time. Hell-raiser Z lives far up north with his birth mum, but comes down every few months for some good solid boy-bonding time with his (female-bodied auto-mechanic non-biological parent) ‘Uncle T’. Kids will adapt & thrive with stability & care (and yeah, they’ll lash out as teens like kids in any parenting situation)- what you’ve gotta worry about is the grown-ups (yourself included), the economics & the laws involved, and making sure that those things can provide the stability & care the kid needs.

    If you haven’t already, get in touch with a local LGBT parenting group and rock along to a picnic or something. Meeting people in situations like the one you’re considering should help clarify things on an emotional level at least.

  18. And one last set of questions before bed:

    How many kids are they planning to have? How might the issues raised already change with multiple kids? How might the relationship with them (and the first kid) be strained if in a few years they wanted you to donate for a second, and you decided to decline? How might a situation in which you were the donor for one kid but someone else was the donor for another complicate things?

  19. if you should decide to go for it i think the question of whether or not to tell your mom would have to do with whether she knows your friends. if she loves them as much as you do, and understands the situation easily, i don’t think it would hurt. if she doesn’t know them, then it’s up to you to be the judge of how she’d feel about it.

    sure the friends are the 2 ‘parents’, the main caregivers, but the more caring and loving adults in a child’s life the better – it takes a village, right?

  20. It also depends on how close he is to his Mom. I have a very, very close relationship with mine, and there is no way I could keep a momentous event in my life from her. I have friends who are at the other extreme, who keep everything from their mothers.

  22. Nice try, but no, thefeminister.
    This thread is not your personal soapbox.

    Thanks for giving me something to devowel, though. I must confess, I’ve been wanting to do that for some time.

  23. This isn’t the same situation, but it’s the only experience I have:

    My biological father hasn’t been a huge part of my life. I wasn’t planned and my parents parted ways very early on.

    I was about eight when I figured out the full story. And boy, was I pissed. I had been carrying around my father’s intense pain without having any idea what it was about. Once I knew, I just got upset with adults who thought that it would be okay to burden me with their life choices.

    I got over it, so I say, don’t worry about what the kid might think. It’s a couple of bad days.

    But my dad never got over it. After I no longer felt burdened, he still did.

  24. a friend from school donated his sperm to an older lesbian couple when he was 17. they didnt tell alot of people, but the couple has always made him welcome in their childs life and the child knos that my friend is his father. my friend is 26 now and he still has a great relationship with his son.

    i really think in a healthy strong friendship that this sort of thing can work out quite well. i kno if i were to end up with a female partner (i bat for both teams) or if i were to someday decide to go the intentional single mother route i would want to have sperm donated by a friend, as opposed to a stranger. for health reasons and more shallow reasons of looks and intellect. if i would be picky choosing a lifepartner, obviously i would be picky in choosing my inseminator.

  25. This situation is very, very common.
    There is a serious lack of information for guys who become “known sperm donors” for people who want to create families – probably primarily lesbian couples, but also single straight women, and het couples where the man is unable to make sperm of his own. Peruse some online infertility support communities, you’ll be suprised how common this is. I’d say that at least 1/3 of the lesbian couples I know who have intentionally conceived children have done so with the help of a known donor. I have no idea how many other folks do so because, unlike lesbian couples, they tend to treat this situation as somewhat shameful and keep it secret.

    Sometimes these situations end beautifully – all the adults communicate well, and the best interests of the child(ren) are always followed. There are horror stories, for the same reason that custody agreements (because legally that is what you are entering into) always go bad. One or more of the adults behave irrationally or selfishly and forget that these decisions MUST be made with the child(ren) in mind. The worst situations seem to happen when one party or another refuses to be at least marginally flexible about the situation.

    When we talked with our known donor, we did the have many long conversations where we talked about “worst case scenario situations.” Like somebody dying or my partner and I splitting up. Like HIS parents (who are biological grandparents) attempting to gain custody or legal visitation rights to our child – I do not know of a court case involving this yet but I bet it will happen someday and the outcome will be very interesting. We also talked about what will happen if our child really, really wants to have a more parent-like relationship with our donor. We plan for him to be called Uncle and have that sort of relationship, but our child (currently gestating) may have other ideas and we will need to respect that.

    Lastly – you should talk with your friends about whether they intend to inseminate at home (so-called turkey baster method) or use the help of an MD. There are very annoying FDA restrictions regarding donor sperm and if you enter the medical model (depending on the state you live in) things can get complicated.

    In any case, I hope I have given you some more to think about. It is an incredibly momentous decision, but in the long run no more momentous then many decisions that adults make for children all the time. Also, on http://www.rainbowconceptions.com there are a bunch of lesbian couples who would probably be willing to talk to you or your friends about their experiences. We’ve talked in that community about actually starting a forum for donor daddies and donor “uncles” but it has yet to happen.

  26. Roy,

    I wish you the best of luck in your journey and decision making process. I’m jenny’s partner (who commented earlier this morning).

    It sounds to me like you and your friends are in the best of all worlds right now — simply because you are talking to one another, and because you have asked for help in asking the right questions. Also you are clearly open to talking about your relationship with the potential future child(ren) throughout the process.

    That is a great place to start from.

    What jenny didn’t refer to above was our first selection of a sperm donor, and why that one didn’t work at all. He and his partner couldn’t agree on whether or not they wanted the resulting child(ren) to know that B was the sperm donor. This was primarily because they hoped to adopt children of their own one day, and H thought it could lead to an awkward biological child vs. nonbiological child situation if and when their future adopted child became aware if B’s biological relationship to our child(ren).

    At the time, jenny, and I had thought this concern was unwarranted, but as jenny refers to above, sometimes the child does have an opinion of its own. If we had decided to go with our know donor option 1, things could most definately have gone awry. Ultimately, that was why we chose another donor.

    The donor we chose actually does live a great distance from us already, so a change in location for either of us wasn’t an issue. Though, I think we might have gone with him if he lived closer to us anyway — simply because he is who he is, and he means so very much to us as a person, and we would love to have him be a rolemodel of one way to live in the world for our child(ren).

    And most importantly, because he trusts us, and we trust him.

    Trust and open communication are the most important things to consider when deciding whether or not to be a known donor, or to use one. It sounds like this matters to both you, and your friends as well.

    Good luck in your journey, and THANK YOU for bringing this issue up in this forum.

  27. Actually, I personally prefer the term “disemvoweling”. Such lovely connotations…about your theoretical situation…I agree w/ Slashy. Sit down w/ your friends, and go through every possible situation.

  28. I’m not sure I’ve seen this question raised yet in the thread, but what about the stability of Jenny and Beth’s relationship? If they separate, what are the possible outcomes?

    Also, you might want to consider what will happen if you decide you’d like to start your own family some day. Admittedly, it’s hard to speculate on these kinds of things, but if you have more children, what are you going to do about the relationship between them, their half-sibling, and “aunts” (for lack of a better term)?

  29. I’m the guy from the Washington Post. And I can attest that there’s a powerful innate bond that comes with a genetic relationship. Although I’ve heard counterexamples from open sperm donors and open birth mothers, I think the cautionary rule for a prospective donor is: you’re likely to feel more of a bond than you expected and it’s safest to assume so. Especially if your role is uncle-ish and you’re not taking on co-parenting responsibilities, then you should agree up front on access and agree up front on the really hard questions raised in this discussion — what happens if the parents die, or the child needs a kidney?

    But there’s another factor that will shape the involved donor’s relationship very quickly, a factor that’s easily underestimated or even neglected at the beginning of the process: the child’s emotions. I am humbled to say my kids, who are approaching their third and second birthdays, love me. They say so. Visiting them is a mixed blessing now because they cry when I leave. And it is increasingly likely that my wife (to whom I was engaged at the time I wrote the Post essay) and I will move in a few years to be closer to the girls — they’ll be starting school around the time my younger stepdaughter finishes high school.

    Even so, the parenting decisions are not mine to make. It’s not my place to decide how much candy they can eat or how much TV they can watch or where they will go to school or how they’re disciplined. Sure, if they needed a kidney, I’d offer, but on a day-to-day basis that’s not what they need. A toddler’s day-to-day needs are much more complicated than that, but their first and foremost need is to be surrounded by people who love them, and I can certainly hold up my end of that.

    Happy Father’s Day.

  30. One more thing: I meant to address the question about what would happen if the moms made a decision I considered seriously wrong. Not to make it sound simple or casual, but: I decided before agreeing to the arrangement that I fundamentally trust them to be good parents. They will make some mistakes, and so would I, and my mistakes would be different from theirs, but they’ll be better parents than most and have at least as good a chance as anybody else to launch happy, healthy offspring in 18 years (well, 15 and 16 now), and if I had any doubt about that, I wouldn’t have shared my DNA.

  31. Roy, does your local LGBTTQQ org. have a parenting community? I’m planning on single-motherhood-by-choice, with a close friend as the donor, and the folks at the LGBT parenting association have been very helpful in answering questions about alternative family models, in pointing me at legal resources, and generally in asking good questions.

    One of the things to remember is that an experienced LGBT family lawyer will know which legal questions you should deal with ahead of time, but that relationships will grow, more or less organically, within the legal framework that you and Jenny and Beth create.

    Kinda like “traditional” families, but without the dubious benefit of a widely recognized model.

    As an adoptee, I have different views about parenting than a those of a lot of my friends. I recognize that other people think that biological ties exist, but I’ve never experienced them.

    My experience has been that it’s best to tell kids as much of the truth as they can handle at the time, and that they’ll let you know what truths they can handle by the questions they ask. My parents never made a big mystery out of my adoption or the circumstances under which it took place—we had photos of them going to the adoption centre, and getting their first look at me and crying and being really happy—and that meant that for me, even as a very small child, being adopted was never a big deal. It was just part of the background. I knew that some families had mommies who got pregnant and had babies and some families went to adoption centres to get babies from other mommies who couldn’t take care of them (this is the four-year-old version), and some families, like ours, had one adopted and one “born” child, and that it was all good.

    So the notion of a biological tie is kind of foreign to me. I think that families are social constructions. The trick is to be mindful of what you (collectively) are constructing.

    Roy, if you want to chat about intentional and non-traditional family stuff offline, feel free to drop me an e-mail.

  32. I so want to be part of this conversation, and yet I don’t want to jeopardize the anonymity afforded to the people posting very relative questions.

    Roy, your kind words about “Beth” and I were heart warming. Thank you for doing all you can to become educated on this topic.

    These readers are amazing and bringing up scenarios that we will definitely have to discuss at length.

    Evil fizz-“Beth” and I have been together for nearly 7 years. Like most couples, we have had our ups and downs, but most of the time it has been ups. We love each other dearly and know about the significane of bringing a child into this world together. We own our own home, have stable jobs, and supportive families. We will still, however, speak with Roy about the repercussions of a possible break-up. We would like to have all our ducks in row before taking a giant leap. Of course, we would do the same thing between ourselves if we were going with an unknown donor from a bank.

    Jennie-Your comments about how your family told you about being adopted align with our beliefs as well. You seem like such a kind soul.

  33. How will having a child/ren with your friends affect any future plans to have a relationship of your own and possible children with that person? How will that person handle it?

    I have been married twice, and now I’m a single mom of two boys (one from each husband). Giving children your time and love is about the best thing you can do for them, no matter what the particular make-up of your household (or extended household) is.
    My personal belief is that if the traditional family was so great, it would have worked for more people. And, that what we call “broken” homes are really homes that have been fixed.

    One thing with child custody is that it is very fluid. I’m not a lawyer, but I have dealt with child custody in two divorce proceedings. Even if you relinquish your rights at the onset, if the children come to know you as a father-figure and that becomes their status quo, child custody can be reconsidered later. The moms might at some point feel threatened by this and limit your involvement. Or, they may have a case at a later point for child support. A lot can change in 18 years as a child matures, circumstances change, people change. Its a lot to try to anticipate.

    And in some states, you can’t “opt” to terminate parental rights (I looked into it here in Virginia because my younger son’s dad was not paying child support or providing insurance, and my first husband was willing to adopt him to provide these things… but it turned out it wasn’t as simple as him relinquishing his rights.)

    If you do decide to do this, you should sit with a lawyer of your own (not just one drawing up the mutual agreement) and talk to them about all the possible outcomes.

  34. I’ve recently been looking into some of the issues that kids (both straight and gay) who grow up in LGB families face, and something that comes to mind is that these discussions that y’all should have, about what you’re going to do if something bad happens, will be beneficial for the child as well. One thing that came up again and again as a stressor for children of LGB parents was the precarious legal situation of their parents, of never quite feeling sure that Mommy #2 was going to be allowed to pick them up at school or how custody issues would work out if one of the parents’ families got their noses out of joint, etc. I’d think it’d be hugely reassuring to a kid to know that his or her parents had plans in place for these sorts of situations, rather than just trusting to the whims of homophobic and confused laws.

    Obviously, this won’t be an issue until the child is old enough to understand some of this, but a number of kids said that this was a huge worry in their lives and one that they didn’t want to bring up with their parents, for fear of hurting the parents’ feelings. So it’s something that should probably be out in the open, from early on.

    Though I also sincerely hope that such caution becomes less and less necessary as our country gets more and more comfortable with LGB families….

    Good luck to you all, whatever you decide.

  35. Mike, thanks for weighing in.

    Roy, please understand that partly I’m informed by being a lawyer*–it’s my job to look at everything that can go wrong, not to be hopeful–and partly from knowing many, many lesbian couples who have had children with donors. So I’ve seen everything from wonderful arrangements like Mike’s to horror stories. (Sometimes it’s a dad who decides he wants to be legal-daddy after all, and the courts let him; sometimes it’s one or both moms deciding they don’t want the biodad around anymore and cutting him out completely.)

    I do think it’s great that you guys are talking this over. Where I worry is that it’s very easy to be optimistic and, of course, nobody can see the future; if “we all agree to be sensible” always worked, we wouldn’t have custody fights in the first place.

    And, of course, there’s that pesky emotional thing; see aforemented horror stories, where dads who thought they were happy to be Uncle saw the little one and realized they couldn’t handle that after all.

    I think the starting point is to accept that you will have no rights and no control. Period. Your presence in the child’s life is going to be entirely at the whims of the mothers, and if that works out OK, it will work out OK. If it doesn’t, it could be terrible for you and the child, and you have to be prepared for that.

    *which is why I hyperventilate when I see people write things like “they just did it and they don’t have any kind of legal agreement”

  37. And, of course, there’s that pesky emotional thing; see aforemented horror stories, where dads who thought they were happy to be Uncle saw the little one and realized they couldn’t handle that after all.

    In the one such relationship that happened among my friends this is where the major stumbling block came up. It wasn’t until their work made the couple and child move away that our friend realized how much he had invested into the relationship. Emotional investment is the area that you really have to heart search before making the committment. It isn’t just the first sight of the child either, it is what if they have to move away, what if they get into trouble, what if their health is compromised- what if, what if…
    There is no perfect future but you have to figure out if you can separate yourself away from the ‘Daddy’ role and fit yourself into the ‘Uncle’ role before you say ‘yes’.

  38. This is fairly interesting to discuss. I don’t know any people that have gone through this exact situation (that I know of…) but I have seen people and relationships shift post-baby. I know you have known these women for a long time, but there has never been this particular situation, and I could see this causing a huge shift in the plates of the three relationships going on here- yours with Beth, yours with Jenny, and Jenny and Beth’s. For instance, people have been known to become less close with non-parents after they have a baby. A child can be a huge stress on a relationship, so their 7 years of love can split fairly quickly with the stress of a child, and I imagine that lesbian parenthood in America can be slightly more stressful than straight parenthood for political, legal and social reasons.

    What happens if Jenny and Beth split up, and one of them becomes involved in a bad or abusive relationship? You may trust J&B to make parenting decisions (as Mike suggests you should) but do you trust a new partner? What if that new partner is a jerk? What if she is abusive to either the mother or the child? What if the new partner is very nice, but wants to move far away? What if Jenny and Beth both get new partners? Where does that leave you, as the 5th most important person in the life of that child?

    And think about how this will affect your relationships with your family and friends. Who do you tell? How soon? Who will be hurt if they find out much later? How will this affect your relationships with women? You say you don’t want children- there are a lot of childfree women who don’t want kids, and don’t necessarily want to be involved with the lives of children. What will you do if the woman you love doesn’t want to spend time with your child? What if she likes your child, but hates Jenny or Beth for some reason? What if your partner gets jealous? What if she doesn’t mind the first child, but also wants it to stop at one, and J&B want another fathered by you?

    Good luck with your decision.

  39. Roy,

    Maybe it is just the librarian in me, but when I face a difficult decision or choice, my solution is usually to research the hell out of it.

    I would check in with the Colage (Children Of Gays and Lesbians Everywhere) kids — they put out a newsletter and they are very knowledgable on queerspawn issues: http://www.colage.org/

    A blogger named Mombian coordinated some wonderful entries for “Blogging for LGBT Families Day” here:
    http://mombian.com/2007/06/01/blogging-for-lgbt-families-day-contributed-posts/
    I don’t know if any of them cover your ground, but it is always neat to learn.

    There are some really good books on gay parenting out there, I would see if your local library has them and see what they say about sperm donor situations. Some titles

    * Love makes a family : portraits of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender parents and their families by Gigi Kaeser

    * The lesbian and gay parenting handbook : creating and raising our families by April Martin

    * The queer parent’s primer : a lesbian and gay families’ guide to navigating the straight world by Stephanie A Brill (I did a look inside on Amazon.com on this book and it seems like it might be very useful for you, do a search for “donor” and see)

    * The lesbian parenting book : a guide to creating families and raising children by D. Merilee Clunis

    * Families of value : personal profiles of pioneering lesbian and gay parents by Robert Bernstein

    * For lesbian parents : your guide to helping your family grow up happy, healthy, and proud by Suzanne M. Johnson

    There are also more books out now from the POV of the children of gay parents, might give you an idea how your kid will understand your relationship.

    * Families like mine : children of gay parents tell it like it is by Abigail Garner

    * Out of the ordinary : essays on growing up with gay, lesbian, and transgender parents by Noelle Howey and Ellen Samuels and Margarethe Cammermeyer

    * Gay and lesbian parenting by Deborah F. Glazer

    A quick spin on Google turns up the following articles and blog posts that are related:

    * Can a Child Have Three Parents? http://www.scfamilylaw.com/children-can-a-child-have-three-parents.html

    * Gay Donor or Gay Dad?
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/19/magazine/19fathering.html?ex=1182225600&en=4942b3892608ac0e&ei=5070

    * Gay Donor Dads in NYT Mag
    http://www.newspeakblog.com/the_blog/2006/11/gay_donor_dads_.html

    And I’m sure there are a lot more articles, books, and stuff of that nature if you look. And if you need help, don’t hesitate to ask a librarian 🙂

    Personally, my girlfriend and I are considering having our children with her best friend, and we’re just started discussing it. A lot of people have touched on some of the questions here, but also ask your self how long you have known these people and what do you like least about them? Be frank, everyone finds something about their friends to be annoying as hell… ask yourself how those small annoyances could play out with a child involved. For example, said friend has a tendency to emotionally disengage when he is upset… that is gonna be hard on a kid and annoying for us. Also, be sure you are on the same page as far as religion, we’re all pagan but I have a strong desire to teach this potential kid about his Catholic cultural roots (both the donor and I were raised Catholic) and that has provided some interesting discussions.

    Also, and I don’t want to sound mean about this, but be careful who you ask for advice. Even the most well-meaning progressive straight people tend to have this knee jerk reaction that this situation will be bad for you or for the kids. But that is because they don’t know people who are doing this, don’t read about people who have these kinds of families, and don’t notice as much of the heterosexism in their thinking as gay people do. I’m not saying that no straight people can have their two cents, I just mean that for a lot of straight people, their concerns are basically “that’s weird and unfamiliar to me” with a thin layer of “I just worry about you” frosting to cover it up. Talking about it with other queer people (or taking some opinions with a grain of salt) would probably be more useful.

  40. Check out your feelings and those of your states with regard to your paying support. Several times now these agreements have contracted that the sperm-donor does NOT have to pay support, and those agreements have been overturned by the State which says that in the best interests of the child, the mothers cannot waive support. The State has then gone after the sperm donor for support, though the State had the good sense not to provide the sperm donor with any other rights as a parent.

    Just google sperm donor liable child support.

    By the way, I think this statement from the original author Two years ago this month, I spoon-fed Samantha one of her first solid meals. At that point, I had already changed more diapers than some dads ever do, even if they live with their babies is just a gratuitous ignorant slam and a self-congratulatory pat on the back.

  41. which is why I hyperventilate when I see people write things like “they just did it and they don’t have any kind of legal agreement

    I think I was one of the commenters who wrote something like this. Why would that make you hyperventilate? Lots of people in registered or unregistered relationships have kids without having any kind of legal agreement. So why would the fact that, say, a lesbian couple or a single woman makes a verbal agreement with a third party make you hyperventilate?

    Are you suggesting that even straight couples ought to make legal agreements before having kids? Things can go wrong in straight relationships as well. One of the people could die, one of them could get offered a job elsewhere or decide to go to lawschool (or whatever) elsewhere, etc.

  42. So why would the fact that, say, a lesbian couple or a single woman makes a verbal agreement with a third party make you hyperventilate?

    Because a verbal agreement is worth the paper it’s printed on. And because there are plenty of laws that, in the absence of agreements to the contrary, will fill in that agreement for them.

    So a lesbian couple who doesn’t have anything on paper is risking “uncle” filing a paternity suit, and asking for shared custody of the child–which, of course, cuts the non-bio-mom out of the picture in terms of her rights. A male friend who thinks he’s being a sperm donor only may be in for a shock if he discovers that, yes, the law might hold him responsible for child support if the mother goes on public assistance. And everybody may have a problem if biomom unexpectedly dies, and Fundie Grandma decides that her grandson will be better off with her than some pervert who isn’t even related by blood.

    I don’t understand why it’s so awful to suggest that people safeguard their families with more than “oh, we all like each other”. I’ve seen plenty of the ugliness that can happen if they don’t. Of course it’s not foolproof, but it’s better than optimism, don’t you think?

  43. libber,

    It makes me nervous because gay people constantly get the shit stick of the legal system, which is supposed to protect you when things go wrong but often for LGBT people, just serves to make it worse. Of couse you can have a kid without legal protection, you can have a relationship without legal protection, but it leaves you and the kid in an extremely vulnerable position. And seeing anyone willfully put themselves in a vulnerable position makes me nervous. I’ve read too many stories about lesbians breaking up and putting their kids through hell (Lisa Miller Jenkins anyone? That woman has a special place in hell for what she did to her kid and her former partner) to trust anyones ability to “just work it out themselves” without any written legal intervention.

  44. And, of course, my parents think that being grandparents is great too. I hadn’t really thought about this, but Jenny mentioned “and if your parents want to be involved in the child’s life, that’d be okay too.” I’m not even sure how I’d approach that. Tell them? Don’t tell them? I’m not sure yet.

    If you’re going to be in contact withe the child(ren) and are also in contact with your parents, then let your parents know. Otherwise, you’re looking at 18+ years of trying to keep something secret, with the odds being pretty good that your parents will eventually find out, and probably in the worst possible way. A different kinds of closet, and you’re not in it alone, you’re dragging in small children who don’t even know why they are there.

    Plus, if they do have a problem with this, knowing before hand will let you decide if and how you want to deal with that problem. The kids could be in a bad spot if you have to sort things out later. Even if they are thrilled by the idea of being grandparents, this isn’t the way they were expecting, and they’ll have almost as many issues to sort out whenever they find out about the kids as you do.

  45. Of course it’s not foolproof, but it’s better than optimism, don’t you think?

    Mythago and Sarah. Yes, I guess I’m just reacting to the apparent differential treatment of lesbians/single women vs straight people. Or maybe ‘differential treatment’ is too strong. It just seems to me that things can go wrong too if a straight (unmarried) couple decides to have a child. but of course, I’m all in favor of protecting the rights of lesbians and single women.

  46. I think it could be a terrific idea, provided you, “Jenny”, and “Beth” take advantage of all the legal safeguards available in your jurisdiction. Shit happens years down the road. Maybe nobody splits up or gets born again, but people can still get hit by cars and so forth. Also, in terms of what access you want to have to the child, I’d recommend getting an agreed upon minimum visitation in writing. Like, say, one afternoon per month or something, and provision made for a different visitation arrangement in case you or t he moms relocate to a different city. My understanding is that open adoption agreements are currently unenforceable in many jurisdictions, but if you’re doing all the legal argey-bargey anyway, it wouldn’t hurt to have everybody’s intentions on paper. And better to figure out that kind of thing beforehand than after the kid’s born.

    I don’t personally want children of my own, but if I did, I can see why going with a friend or relative could seem preferable to an anonymous donor, despite the possible emotional complications down the line. And I can certainly see the appeal in getting to be part of a child’s life without having to be the primary caregiver. It’s partly why I’m looking forward very much to one or both of my younger siblings spawning one day, so I can be an auntie. The wonderful thing about other people’s kids is that you can give them back! But while being an auntie (or in your case, uncle) can be a good way of getting the perks of parenthood without the responsibilities, it’s also a position where you’ll be on the sidelines in terms of major decisions about the child’s life. So, I wouldn’t rush into a decision without having first thought over a lot of possible scenarios, and discussed them with your friends.

  47. It just seems to me that things can go wrong too if a straight (unmarried) couple decides to have a child.

    Exactly. Any couple theoretically could break up. Any child’s parents could suddenly die. Any family with kids could have grandparent issues or extended family issues. It’s a more intricate web of issues when a donor is involved, but the issues aren’t inherently different. Any parent is well advised to have a clear and detailed will and living will. And to think about worst-case scenarios before deciding to have kids.

  48. I don’t personally want children of my own, but if I did, I can see why going with a friend or relative could seem preferable to an anonymous donor, despite the possible emotional complications down the line.

    You probably don’t want to go with a relative (that might cause genetic disorders, depending on how close the relative is) but a close friend definitely seems preferable to an anonymous donor

  49. I have also heard of child support agreements not being upheld. Many jurisdictions feel that child support is the right of the child, not the parents, so the parents cannot waive it. I’m sure a lawyer will straighten that out for you.

  50. Mike, as I’ve said repeatedly, the issues are “inherently different” because the legal protections are different. This is kind of a digression because Roy is aware of the potential pitfalls here; but there is a big difference in “my wife and I are having a baby” vs. “my domestic partner and I are having a baby with a known donor” in terms of the legal issues that come up.

    It sucks, and it’s not fair, and it should change. But let’s just say that Lisa Miller Jenkins is not the first of her ilk.

  51. You probably don’t want to go with a relative (that might cause genetic disorders, depending on how close the relative is) but a close friend definitely seems preferable to an anonymous donor

    Er, Libber, I meant a relative of the non-biological mother. Perhaps I should’ve been more clear. I know several couples who’ve done that, in part because they like the idea of the child having a genetic link to both its moms. Mind you, I assume that there would be just as much need for written agreements with a relative who’s acting as a sperm donor as with a friend.

  52. Er, Libber, I meant a relative of the non-biological mother.

    yes, of course! I totally misread you. and it’s actually a really good idea, even if it is not going to help Roy make his decision.

  53. Other people have mentioned the strong connection that comes with a child because of the shared genetic material. I just wanted to point out that a lot of that is because the child will resemble you socially and mentally, as well as physically. Your biological child will have a higher-than-average likelihood of having similar issues that you had growing up (e.g. being socially awkward, having a learning disability, being obsessed with banjos, etc. . .). At least for me (a heterosexual male), that would make it extremely difficult to think of myself as just an uncle, and to butt out of parenting decisions that were so closely connected to problems that I had growing up. When I was younger, I never really understood why adopted children wanted to find their biological parents; then I had a friend who did it, and saw how meaningful it was for him to meet biological relatives and feel a connection from their similarities.

    I’m definitely not saying that you can’t handle being an uncle to a biological child, or find it incredibly rewarding. Just that you might want to think about all the reasons you might feel a stronger-than-expected connection to your biological child; noticing that s/he “has your eyes” is probably the least of those reasons.

  54. How will having a child/ren with your friends affect any future plans to have a relationship of your own and possible children with that person? How will that person handle it?

    i have to say, my first thoughts on this went right to kat’s same sentiment. how does your partner feel about this, were you to assent? if something were to happen between you and your current partner, how would go about telling any future partners, if at all?
    there are a million and fifty questions that arise here. good luck.

    i am positive that whatever decision is made, it will be extremely well-thought out and will be the best one for all involved.

  55. Other people have mentioned the strong connection that comes with a child because of the shared genetic material. I just wanted to point out that a lot of that is because the child will resemble you socially and mentally, as well as physically.

    True enough, but genes don’t have a monopoly on those factors. Kids can grow to physically resemble a nonbiological parent, esp. one who raises the child from birth, because a child will pick up subtleties of body language, facial expressions and mannerisms. My original point was that the biological affinity should not be underestimated (by donors who don’t expect to want to be involved), but I also want to be clear that biology is certainly not the only basis for powerful bonds.

    This is why I mention stuff like changing diapers: I find a lot of people asking whether I changed diapers, cleaned up barf and got up for 3 a.m. feedings, as those are often mentioned as litmus tests for the difference between a visiting uncle and somebody with a deeper sense of attachment. (I don’t know why. Hired caregivers do those things too.) Babies seem to know who they can count on, whether it’s one grownup or the whole village.

  56. my (now) husband, X and I helped friends (A-Biomom, B-nonbiomom) have a child.

    from the prospective of the female partner of the male donor: It was/is an amazing experience, and I recommend jumping through the hoops. If you choose to do it, I hope you have as positive an experience as I have had.

    it was interesting, in that while chilling with them at their home, right before their commitment ceremony, with B’s parents, B’s mom busts out, ‘well, i’m ready to be a grandmother, X you should totally help. 10 years ago, i really wanted you to date B. This will work to’. All eyes swiveled towards me, i guess i was supposed to throw a hissy fit. apparently, they had planned on talking to us, but were hoping to kind of sus us out before being called out, hee.

    long story short, they did a really amazing job of making me feel a part of the process. (i did have one serious moment of giggles after i did the first ahh, ‘passoff’).

    At the time, we lived across the country from them, so we weren’t involved in day to day. In the last few months, we’ve moved to being about 5 mins away from them. He/we are involved in the ‘very good friends’ way. There is actually a pretty large, well ‘tribe’ of friends that behave in much the same way. The kid doesn’t particularly know, but it’s not a big secret (also, they look disturbingly alike).

    the biggest oddity for me, was my 2 best friends at the time, who i went to for advice on how, i, as pretty much the odd girl out in it all, might feel. One was VERY supportive. the other was appalled, that somehow it was cheating, which…weird. (i’m not friends with her anymore).

  57. My sister and her partner have a 3-year-old son whose dad is a close friend of theirs. My nephew loves his Papa and Papa’s family (partner and adopted son). But there are lots of hard things, too. I wouldn’t do it without a lot more thought and discussion about what being “Uncle Roy” means. And about how you adults negotiate your relationship. How much contact? What happens if you move? Or they do? Thinking about the interests of the kid, I think you have to be making a lifetime commitment in a way, too – because think about how hurtful it is for the kid if s/he gets to know you and expect a certain relationship and then you stop returning phone calls or aren’t friends with the parents anymore.

    For me the circumstances would have to be perfect. We’d have to have the kind of friendship where hard things are talked about openly. We’d have to have talked – a lot – about how to handle all aspects of the relationship. I’d have to be confident in myself, and in them, that everyone really knows what they want from this, and confident that if that changes we could negotiate it.

  58. True enough, but genes don’t have a monopoly on those factors. . . .I also want to be clear that biology is certainly not the only basis for powerful bonds.

    Definitely. I hope I didn’t imply otherwise. For example, the adoptee that I mentioned earlier is still much, much closer to his adoptive parents than his genetic relatives.

  59. Mythago says there are plenty of laws that, in the absence of agreements to the contrary, will fill in that agreement for them.

    and I think this is one of the most important, most oft-neglected points in discussions of non-traditional family arrangements, and why it’s really important for anyone contemplating a non-traditional parenting set-up to get in touch with a lawyer who practises in non-traditional family law. The laws are complicated and not always intuitive, and legislators and judges generally didn’t have queer families in mind when they created, for example, child-support laws.

    The laws are supposed to work in the best interest of the child. Whether they do or not is open to debate, but they exist, and, in the absence of a legally binding agreement covering a particular situation, the laws go into action, even if they run contrary to what anyone involved might want.

    I prefer to believe that Jenny, Beth, and Roy will be able to come to an arrangement that works well for them and the kid, with minimal stress and discussion. I believe that families are way more flexible than people often think, and I think that everyone can accommodate everyone else. I also believe strongly in planning for the worst-case scenario, and doing whatever you can to make sure you’ve asked all the difficult questions before you commit yourself. Not because of the “difficulties” in establishing non-traditional relationships, but because society and legislation and legal precedent haven’t caught up with the permutations even in traditional families, and nobody wants their kid being the test case.

    Roy, thanks a lot for letting us see this part of your life and for opening your very personal decision up to general comment.

  61. I should be thanking all of you, jennie- there are lots of really great questions here that I hadn’t thought of, and now the three of us will be able to discuss these concerns and make sure that we’re all on the same page, and make an informed choice in how to proceed.

    So, yeah, a big thanks to all of you- I really appreciate the input.

  62. The possible future with a new partner for you, Roy, is a real thing to consider.

    If you’ve ever had the experience of having friends that you adore, and a partner you adore, and just not having those two be able to appreciate each other, you can imagine what the potential problems can be if you’re an “uncle” and s/he’s expected (and in the interest of sharing a life with you, WANTS to) be the auntie. It’s one thing if you’re partnered already and s/he loves your friends. It’s quite another if you don’t know what she’ll bring to the chemistry. The mothers of your niece/nephew might be allergic to your true love. She may want to scream every time she sees one or both of them, just for the myriad reasons that sometimes nice, cool people don’t like each other. It’s happened. If I were wanting a donor, I would be sure to ask from someone who was in a long-term stable relationship for this reason. I wouldn’t want to be responsible for tension in his future relationship, and I wouldn’t want to feel obligated to entertaining someone I didn’t like on a regular basis. It’s not a perfect insurance policy, but it would help.

  63. Oops. Meant to s/he on all of that partner business so as not to be heteronormative. I don’t think you’ve indicated whether your potential future partners would be women or men. Apologies if I got it wrong.

  64. Hey, since it’s come up a few times, I figured I’d pop in to say: I’m Roy’s partner (and hope to be so for a long-ass time to come!), and I couldn’t be more thrilled about all of this. I love Jenny & Beth, and we get along great, and I can’t imagine three people more prepared for this kind of relationship. Honestly, I’m standing back a bit right now to let the three of them sort this out, because the decision is really Roy’s and not mine, but if/when they decide to go for it, I’d be awfully honored to be considered Aunt [Pardner].

    Could Roy & I break up at some point down the road? We’re sure not planning on it, but of course it’s possible. We certainly haven’t been together as long as Jenny & Beth have. But honestly, I can’t imagine anyone deserving of Roy not being supportive of the families he’s chosen to create, whether or not they want to be an auntie themselves. I mean, people don’t get along with their partners’ biological or adoptive families all the time, and most couples work that out. At worst, this is no different, and in fact, given the chosen nature of the situation, and the insanely great people involved, I would hope it would be easier.

  65. Hey Pardner!
    We love you too!
    Thank you for your kind and supportive words.
    We were just telling Mr. Roy how much we liked you when he was over last week for dinner.
    Hope to see you soon!
    J

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