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Aggression

Can women ever be aggressive towards men AND for that to be acceptable? Living in Paris for a small amount of time has unlocked my aggressive side in the street. In London and Bristol, I just mind my own business but Paris has been a different experience for me: the sexually aggressive nature of some Parisian men is mind-boggling.

Case 1: I am in an internet café, typing away. The man next to me proceeds to put his bloody hand on mine and it was not a damn accident.

Case 2: At McDonalds with my friend, minding my own business and when a guy is told politely that I don’t have a telephone so that he can stop touching me and as we try to leave, his friend starts barking like an Alsatian calling me “méchante” (mean) and looks like he is ready to start a fight.

Case 3: My friends were in a bar in the Bastille area of central Paris. A man is politely told that she is not interested, then he just goes off his head and starts throwing obscenities her way and tried to get physical.

I have realised that that layer of aggression is hidden underneath the beauty of this city. Of course, not all Parisian men are like this but when I learnt of the horrific gang rapes that have occured in banlieue (suburb) of Paris made me think: should I be submissive the next time a man tries to get bright? I have realised that it is better to remain quiet and try not to talk back because that is when some of these men become very very aggressive.

The gang rape in Paris is frightening. Read the exercept below from IHT (I am in NO WAY WHATSOEVER comparing my experiences with aggressive men to this horrifican and brutal crime because mine was harmless but the victims of these gang rapes are suffering):
The boys were patient, standing in line and waiting their turn to rape. Their two victims, girls of 13, were patient as well, never crying out, at least that is what the neighbors said, and enduring the violence and abuse not once, but repeatedly over five months. That was three years ago. Late last month, 10 young men, now ranging in age from 18 to 21, were convicted of rape in a closed courtroom in nearby Evry and sentenced to prison terms ranging from three to five years. Seven others will go on trial in November. The fact that they are being brought to justice at all is highly unusual.

The phenomenon of gang rape in France has become banal. It occurs – how often is unknown – in the concrete wastelands built as cheap housing for immigrants on the outskirts of France’s big cities. Here, according to sociologists and prosecutors, teenage boys, many of them loosely organized into gangs, prey on neighborhood girls.

Many of the boys are raised in closed, traditional families and are hopelessly confused or ignorant about sex; others are simply street toughs. In this world, women enjoy little respect; often girls who appear weak, or who wear tight-fitting clothing or go out unaccompanied by their fathers or brothers are considered fair game.

To avoid trouble, many girls of the projects have taken to wearing loose-fitting jogging clothes and hidden themselves behind domineering fathers or brothers; others have organized themselves into their own gangs. Many of the Muslim girls have donned head scarves – more for protection than out of religious conviction.

What does the emergence of “tournantes” mean for today’s global society? Gang rape happens everywhere but its’ emergence in Paris can be seen as a symbolic because it is trying to reinfornce that women have a position in Parisian society and that their bodies do not count as much of that of men. That is when I realised scarily that many men here are aggressive because to a certain extent, women are seen as easily discarded and easily replaced. This of course is a sentiment shared in many patriarchal countries. What scared me in Paris was how obvious it was.


88 thoughts on Aggression

  1. This story is a real eye-opener and SCARY.

    A funny side-note. When you wrote:

    The man next to me proceeds to put his bloody hand on mine and it was not a damn accident.

    I was actually confused for a minute– why was his hand bloody? Oh right, she’s got that cool European slang. *hangs head in shame*

    I need to get out of the midwest more 🙂

  2. You always have to use your judgement on a case by case basis. I have found that I can do all the feminist analysis I want of how harassment happens b/c men feel entitled to women’s bodies, and how they ought to take responsibility for their reactions and not blame us for “making” them lose control, but explaining this to the man threatening you is not going to make him back down. I prefer the “don’t ask for trouble” approach, victim blaming though it is.

  3. I have been grabbed by the arms in Glasgow and Aberdeen, UK. Once, for blowing off two men (on the street, trying to force me to come along with them, they seemed intoxicated) in Aberdeen, I was called a “fucking American”, (when they attempted pulling me away from the direction of the Arab Strap show I was attending)to which I replied, “Damn straight, I will fuck you up!’ The other, my first trip and night in Scotland; two men tried to force me by my arms to sit down at the bar with them by grabbing my arms on both sides (I was jet-lagged, it was around ten, and I was told the only place to get food was at a bar, in Glasgow). Many people looked on, but nobody cared to set the nasty men straight. So, of course, I did. Nobody grabs me/ touches me without my permission. Of course, I received the nasty looks from an older crowd that (I guess) perceived me as to making a fuss, or something.

    I have two great male friends in Scotland, so I wish this not to be taken the wrong way. Oh, and met many excellent people there. It’s just on two separate occasions that I was grabbed, and I had to get aggressive. I just think I should clear that up. Obviously, I went back after the summer, to see Arab Strap’s final two shows in Scotland, in December. So, the good out-weighed my two negative experiences.

  4. oh, and as for myself: I am in no way comparing my experiences to the article. just two separate occasions- the one in Aberdeen could have ended up poorly- where I had to let two men each time know that there would be trouble if they did not quit following me (Aberdeen) and grabbing me.

  5. I’m living in Paris now and have had several things happen. Not nearly as much as you, but then again, I don’t get out much here–mostly I work. The hand thing struck a chord with me, since one night in the metro, it was crowded and I was holding the metal pole for balance. People were pushing and my hand got brushed by someone else’s (ugh, sweaty). I moved my hand, but it happened again. At this point, the metro car had emptied out a bit. The next instanst, a hot sweaty hand landed right on top of mine and gripped it. I yanked my hand away and gave the male perpetrator a vicious look of disgust (don’t speak enough French to bitch and not sure that I would have anyhow). I hadn’t even realized it was the same man untili that instant.

    I’m shocked about the gang rapes occuring in the suburbs. I knew that there was violence but I did not know that in particular was a problem (although, again, no French).

  6. It sounds a lot like a cultural assumption of entitlement is endemic in Parisian society. it’s an assumption that, of course, is generally present in patriarchal society everywhere, but in most places feminism has done a lot to erode that specific sense of “all I have to do is take it”. Which is not to say that it has gone completely, of course.

    When you couple that sense of entitlement with a sense of powerlessness, the outcome is predictable: gangs form to coalesce what power they have, and then they exercise that power against the easiest target: those over whom they feel direct entitlement.

    I think it is most shocking to read of it in a Western culture because we are used to seeing ourselves as “cultured”, “advanced”, “decent”. Feminism has achieved some shifting in the status quo, but it is stories like this that remind us that so much of what has changed has been superficial, a veneer that allows us to think that we are that much better than we were – but scratch the surface, and the worst excesses of oppression are still there.

  7. Is it just me or was that article doing some “boys will be boys” crap to excuse the GANG RAPES?

    It is not the woman’s job to be surrounded by brothers wearing a burka to avoid being raped by “hopelessly confused” “boys”.

  8. I recently had an old man in a virtually empty laudromat, while his wife was about 20 feet away, “pick up a sock that fell” about 2 inches from me, so his face was brushing my ass- a manuever I have seen this jerk pull on many young, busy mothers in the same place for YEARS. I unloaded on him, loudly asking him WHAT the hell he thought he was doing and telling him to get the hell away from me! He then tried to put his hand on my shoulder “to calm me down”; I backed away and again loudly told him to keep his hands to himself. I also told him that if he touched me again, I would call the police IMMEDIATELY.

    Then his wife, who has seen this all transpire dozens of times before, mousily told me that “he was just trying to help you”- I then ripped into her, saying that she KNEW that wasn’t true and that she has, just like me, seen him do this time and again- that she should leave him at home when she does her laundry if she can’t control him.

    The managers and employees of this nice business, who have been friends of mine for years, have shared the same opinion as me about this matter, but were unwilling to kick a customer out or tell him to stop. I don’t blame them- but it’s funny how the wife has been in since but the old pervert has NOT.

    AGRESSION? Maybe. But hey- it’s my ass. Ya gotta watch and stand up for YOUR OWN BODY AND RIGHTS.

    Guess I won’t be invited to Europe any time soon…

  9. I always advise fighting back if physically attacked. You’ll feel better about it later.
    When men touch you or push themselves on you, issue a firm no and stand your ground. If you’re meek or signal your fear they will eat you alive.

  10. My experience was in Florence. I had spent a wonderful week there with a bf and some friends…but just coincidentally had always walked around town with him or the group but never alone. Hadn’t even thought about it.

    Then one afternoon, I went out myself to do some errand or walk around or whatever.

    The difference was terrifying. And I am a Jersey girl, street smart, no blushing flower, but I was shaking by the time I got back to the hotel.

  11. I lived in Italy for a year, and my experience there was that men targeted women who were visibly not-Italian. In my case, when it was obvious (as, for example, in Florence) that I was American, men tried constantly and aggressively to pick me up. When I was just living quietly in a less touristed city, I didn’t stand out as American (and people couldn’t immediately tell that I was foreign) and men bothered me only rarely. I don’t know if there’s a trick that will make harassment stop–I don’t know if you’ll stop it by being aggressive, but I know for sure you won’t stop it by laughing weakly and pretending it’s not happening–people will keep trying until they get a reaction. Overall, I think you’re better off reacting forcefully than not, though I wouldn’t recommend starting a fistfight.

  12. @Auleilia: Which bar in the Bastille? Just curious, because my most recent public groping took place there. A genuinely weird dude grabbed my tits — I flew back in horror, the weirdo started flailing, and the waiters tackled and pinioned him and threw him into the street. After that, the refilled my wine glass and apologized thoroughly.

    @thistle. Yes, exactly. I had a very, very fair and blond (and beautiful) friend in college who was Italian. She was groped in the street and turned around and cursed her gropers out in pure street Romanaccio. The gropers then blushed, horrified, and apologized for doing it. They didn’t think she was Italian, you see. She then cursed them out more.

  13. I have had a similar experience. I am living in Mexico City. I have lived in Washington DC (not that big, but a city), and Pittsburgh (a very small city). My aggression level (in general, towards everyone and everything) has jumped like crazy and it is for the same reason. Men much more aggressively treat women like objects. I have been here for a little over a year, and my aggression level is just finally starting to come back to normal. The only reason that it is starting to come back to where is was before is because I have started responding just as assertively, but with less aggression. No one has touched me. Depending on where they touch me, the response would be violence or just saying something. However, I get grunted at, whistled at, leered at, followed, requested that I be more polite and talk to someone, etc…all of which I feel are aggressive behaviors towards women (not as aggressive as rape, but the first steps). I used to respond with a “fuck you, asshole” or ” not even in your dreams” in English or Spanish. I am starting to change my responses to “I am not a porographic magazine. I didn’t invite your opinion. I didn’t invite you to look there. You have no reason to look there. If I were interested, I would talk to you. etc”

    I think men here are so shocked that I respond at all that they don’t think to be more aggressive. My boyfriend, who is Mexican, is afraid that men will respond respond violently and until recently though that I should be more passive (until he saw a man grab a young girl’s ass in the metro and told him stories about traveling in India). However, oddly, the only time that someone has responded aggressively to my rejection is when I was with my boyfriend and they wanted to fight him. I guess it isn’t that odd, women are used as pawns in the masculinity securing, heirarchy creating, immature games that men play with each other.

    I will continue to respond regardless of the threat of a more aggressive response for several reasons. I feel that men need to experience confronting a strong, assertive and occassionally aggressive woman. Even if it doesn’t change their behavior, me refusing to passively accept their behavior and actively refusing the notion that I like their behavior is more likely to create the possibility for change than passively accepting it. It has also be empowering for me to over come my own fear of them lashing out at me in order to respond and (as I am doing now) overcoming my own tendency to respond with violence by learning to assertive but less aggressive. Finally, given that women are more likely to survive and get out of rape situations by literally, physically and violently fighting back, I feel that if they know that I am not passive, that I will fight back, they are less likely to try anything more.

  14. I realise that everyone experiences a city differently but having lived in France for most of my life, I can say that I encountered the exact same amount of insults and unwanted attention in London. In fact, I find it more difficult to deal with the UK’s drunken culture than I found difficult to ignore or tell someone to get lost in Paris.

    But this is not about comparing countries, cultures and experiences…. While I agree that “tournantes” are absolutely disgusting and terrifying, maybe this blog entry could have been worded a little bit more carefully so it didn’t come out as stereotyping a culture – my initial reaction when reading this post was to think just that, and that’s unfair.

  15. That article really terrifies me. The combination of religious-fundamentalism-meets-disenfranchisement-meets-women-trying-not-to-live-in-fear is extremely volatile. There is also a certain nonchalance about forcing sex on women that is in no way endemic to the immigrant communities…I remember reading an interview with Gerard Depardieu where he confessed to having raped as a young teen and said he had no idea at the time that he should feel guilty because it was no big thing and a lot of boys did it (he later said he felt ashamed and sorry but that put me right off him – anyone to whom rape was ever OK is basically subhuman in my eyes). Combine that with the societal repression of women’s sexuality and freedom of expression (i.e. the Copenhagen mufti’s proclamation that “women who do not wear hijab deserve to be raped”) and you’ve got a situation where women are basically cowed into submission, or risking their lives and bodies on a daily basis if they dare to act without a male relative present and wary.

    I’m really despondent about this. It’s disgusting. The smiley-or-gang-rape threat reminds me of the acid burnings in Bangladesh. It’s very hard for an outsider to make inroads into that kind of dilemma, because we are (correctly) accused of not being from, and not understanding, the cultural climate that permits such.

    I really don’t know where one can send the most money, emphasis, help etc., in order to quash these attitudes. Males living within those communities are the only ones to whom the perpetrators will listen and pay heed.

  16. I’ve been living between Europe and the US, with some bad experiences in both places.

    One thing I noticed is that French girls (even small ones) react very strongly to male “attention”, poking loud fun at their would-be gropers. I definitely advise loud, mocking, American responses rather than trying to quietly move away. I think of it the same way I think of bringing an assaulter to justice: it might be a draining process for the victim, but otherwise the perpetrator will just perpetrate again. I find that I also feel better after yelling and cursing quite a bit (in my native language, never mind, they’ll get the drift). If I go away quietly, the event nags at me for days.

    I also like bringing up my 3 large brothers (never mind that they are all 5000 miles away) and a fictitious boyfriend, if necessary the police. Just make them think enough so that they might not do it again …

  17. I’d heard about and experienced so many separate instances of street harassment, and I was so fueled by anger at the entitlement of it all, that by last year I was FED UP. I refused to walk home in fear, and promised myself that I would take a baseball bat (either literally or figuratively, depending on whatever was available at the time) to anyone who tried it with me again. Making that promise to myself, knowing that if someone chooses to victimize me, I’ll be ready for it and fight back, was very freeing. Whereas before I would just avoid eye contact and ignore anything that was said, now I coldly stare them down, or call them out in a humiliating manner.

    Since I made the promise to myself, however, the instances have dropped dramatically. I think men who engage in this sort of thing are that specific breed of that cowardly bully who try to target those they think won’t stand up for themselves. I don’t walk around scowling or standing aggressively, but I truly believe think there’s a subtle difference in body language in those who have made a conscious decision to not put up with any bullshit, ever.

    Of course, nothing we can do will ever totally protect us from harassment; what really needs to happen is men have to choose not to harass and assault us. (Lord knows when that will ever happen.)

  18. I also had similar very bad experiences in Italy but not a one in France so I wonder how much of this is bad luck in specific countries? It seems to me like there is an entitled crowd of jerks just about everywhere I’ve ever been. When I lived in Florence I actually came home from a nightclub one night with bruises on my ass from getting pinched hard so many times. I found out later that the women who go there know it is a sort of “sport” at that particular club, but the 20 min I spent there were scary. At the Vatican of all places I was actually followed by two men who kept grabbing at me. They wouldn’t leave me alone and the security guard I approached ignored me. I eventually paid to go into a section of the cathedral so they wouldn’t follow. Sad but true, the way I stopped all street harassment in Italy – I bought a cheap, fake gold wedding band.

    That said, the worst experience I’ve ever had like that was in the good ole US of A at a nightclub in Texas. On the dance floor some drunk guy came up and literally shoved his hand into my crotch and tried to lift me off the floor! I dug my nails into his arm so hard it drew blood and immediately told the waitress. They kicked him out and later I heard that the bouncers actually took him into the alley and beat the hell out of him…not exactly the punishment I requested but I’ll take it….

  19. Whenever someone tells me how sexually “liberated” Europe is, I think of shit like this — how women’s bodies are “liberated” and yeah, you see boobs and maybe a vulva or two everywhere, but how many dicks do you see?

    The only thing liberated about European sexuality in my opinion is that women’s sexual agency has been liberated right out of their hands into something men feel entitled to.

    Oh, and I’ll be going to France in less than a week. Fortunately, I’ve always hated Paris and I’ll be making a bee-line for the countryside. 🙂

  20. A former fellow grad student of mine studies Italian history (and is half Italian himself) and so frequently travels there both for research and to visit family. I remember being surprised at some of the stories he’d tell about how his financé (now his wife) was treated from time to time. She’s tall, fair-skinned, beautiful and all that, and he said that she got a lot of unwanted attention when she was off by herself or somehow separated from him so that it wasn’t clear that they were together.

    She’s assertive enough to know how to handle herself, but my colleague says it still makes him a bit nervous when she’s on her own. Which is not to say that that kind of thing doesn’t happen here or anywhere else. I guess it still surprises me what some guys will do, but it really shouldn’t.

  21. They don’t see us as “objects” but as scapegoats: Hey, do you feel even a twinge of anxiety in your life? Well, verbally attack women in the streets and you’ll feel like a “man” again (read: not a bitch).

    I’ve always hated the euphemism “objectification.” It’s dehumanization (w/ a healthy dose of demonization). No other groups of people are “objectified” but us (They’re “dehumanized,” of course). That euphemism makes it sound like a bland process, w/ the emotional impact of “microwaved.” Dehumanization is not only accurate, but forces people to understand that a human being is stripped of their inalienable rights. It’s, like, reminding people it’s a “robbery” rather than some “transfer.”

  22. Oh, and for the record the incident in Paris was simply the most recent. I have never found Paris (or France) to be particularly bad for harassment, street or otherwise. The most terrifying display of male entitlement I have ever been subjected to — and the most afraid for my personal safety that I’ve ever felt — was in a nightclub in the Meatpacking District as the evening became morning and all the drunk and bitter dudes without dates felt that they were bloody well entitled to take one home.

  23. Is it hard to find stun guns in Europe? Are they legal? If I were regularly harassed, I’d look into getting trained on some kind of legal, non-lethal weapon. I’d at least get a mean-ass looking dog.

  24. Holly R., I had my butt smacked quite roughly by a man in Aberdeen. I was walking up the stairs in a bar (with my two male cousins, no less), and this guy just ran up behind me and swatted my ass, then stood there grinning when I turned around. Thankfully, that was the only bad experience I had there.

    As I was only 17 at the time, that was the first time I had encountered such behavior. Sadly, since then, I’ve noticed and been the victim of it many times in the US. Recently, a man in a crowded bar pressed himself against me while I was standing right next to my husband. Not to say that women who go out without a male escort are more deserving of such treatment, it’s just that usually a male presence will deter it. It’s so shameful that this kind of thing is still acceptable and that some men feel they have a right to treat women like this. Makes me sick to my stomach.

  25. Thanks for all your comments.

    Tobes — Lol, I use “bloody” all the time – sorry for the confusion at first!

    Frumious B — Do you think that when a man is threatening perhaps he may want the victim to shout back ?
    Holly R – How did you find Scotland? I love it up there. Of course, the UK has got its’ fair share just like every other country in the world. I hope no one thinks I think that Paris is the only city with aggressive men because it is definitely is not. What I would like to know is whether we should be aggressive back or is that tantamount to us wanting to be like men?

    NotableAbsence — I was too shocked when I heard of them. Chilling and scary.

    SnowdropExplodes — I agree with what you have said especially your idea on entitlement. I think to an extent, it is also a war between the traditional vs “modern” >> I do not think it is about religion to a great extent: what appears to be at the core from what I have seen is that what women should be like and exactly how should a woman’s gender role be like for many people who are 3rd generation French citizens. Like in my other post about hybrid identity, it appears to me that wearing short skirts, tight jeans is seen as being “European” etc so is it like some of them believe that they are putting these women straight? It really does scare me.

    Lauren — The boys will be boys thing is alive and kicking and just when I thought it all it would be remembered for is a Backstreet Boys song, it is still here. Do the people who adhere to this philosophy think that women still have to “mother” men throughout life ie, that we should change what we wear in order to “steer” men on the right path?

    Louise — You did the right thing and brave thing. I really respect that. The sad thing is so many women think that they can’t say something back. A man poked one of my breasts once in an internet café in Fort-de-France, Martinique in broad daylight. I was in so much shock. I just left…your example sets the bar.

    Medbh — Do you think it is the old idea of survival of the fittest between men and women?

    JP — Do you think that being seen as a woman alone equates to vulnerability with certain men?

    Wishy-Washy — Your information has knocked me for six. I am so shocked to hear that about Gerard Depardieu. I cannot…I actually cannot comprehend that. I agree with you about your comment about those who rape being subhuman.

    Males living within those communities are the only ones to whom the perpetrators will listen and pay heed.

    I agree with this 100% >> feminism needs to recruit more men. The men who are on our side and 100% against rape are the ones whose voices need to be amplified too.
    I’ve heard another chilling name for “the smiley”: the Chesire Cat Smile. When I was living in Martinique last year, I will never forget a guy on campus telling me about how that happened to a girl in a club because she bounced some guy off. It is so disheartening.
    What else can women do about it?

    Cassie —

    I definitely advise loud, mocking, American responses rather than trying to quietly move away.

    — That is a good tactic!

    RKMK — That is so great that you felt impassioned and strong to assert your right as a citizen because that is what we are. I refuse to agree that women are 2nd class citiznes anymore: I used to believe that but not anymore. Your resolute attitude proves that we need to stand up.

    Fizgig — I am sorry to hear about your experiences but at least that man got his karma.

    Mighty Ponygirl —

    Whenever someone tells me how sexually “liberated” Europe is, I think of shit like this — how women’s bodies are “liberated” and yeah, you see boobs and maybe a vulva or two everywhere, but how many dicks do you see?

    >> That is a great question! I need the answer to that too.

    Sorry for this long reply but everyone had interesting thoughts so just wanted to give my thoughts back.

    Cheers,
    –Aulelia

    Jess — I did not mean to stereotype the culture whatsoever and I apologise if you saw it that way because I thought I wrote it in such a way that was avoiding stereotyping. All those gatherings I have made about Paris have just been what I have experienced since being here and I am not saying it is the blueprint for everyone else. Everyone is bound to have different experiences of a place because everyone is different. Some people are not bothered by this type of aggression but the reason I am comparing it to London and England in general is because what I experienced over there is wholly different to that of Paris.

    I think people will always tend to have different experiences living in European countries depending wholly where they come from and to an even larger extent, what their cultural/ethnic backgrounds are. Whenever me and my friends speak English here, everyone immediately assumes that we are American. They are thus stereotyping too. Lol, don’t even get me started on the racial politics of Paris either! After reading a disparaging article in French ELLE about a white woman who painted herself “black” to see what it was like to be a “black woman”, I have conceded that Paris is not for me but it could be perfect for other people and that is just fine with me.

  26. It’s always hard to know what to do, and the truth is, you have to make quick assessments for each situation, and that’s hard when your adrenaline is going. You have to analyze a bunch of factors all at once: where am I? Can I run? Are there friends here? Where are the exits? How much of a risk does he pose physically? Blah, blah, blah…all the many permutations that go into deciding what to do. (Think of the cool things we could create or invent or enjoy without this big, daily, never-ending power-drain.)

    So hearing about other people’s encounters helps us “rehearse” what we might do. I personally am in favor of doing whatever works, so long as it doesn’t endanger an innocent or uninvolved third party. (To exaggerate for effect here, I mean something like the old joke about whether you can outrun the grizzly when it attacks your hiking group – the punchline being that you don’t have to outrun the grizzly, you just have to outrun your hiking buddy. This is funny, true, and immoral.)

    I’ll leave it to others to analyze the cross-cultural implications. But….

    Acting insane can work, though it really impinges on your happy day. Some guy reaches out to pat your butt, and you go nuts: “Oh my God, I can’t believe you just did that! Oh, no! Now I have to start all over again from the beginning…!” And you act like you have the world’s biggest case of OCD. Or like you’re going to have a humongous panic attack. Or like maybe you’re going to throw up. Or you begin talking directly to God.

    Depending on language barriers, I think a quiet, stern, “How would you feel if someone was treating your mother like this?”

    I think that occasionally you might be able to incite a schoolroom kind of response by sternly saying something like, “Shame on you. You are being so rude, and I know you know better. Now go sit down over there and hush your mouth.”

    We might also carry some kind of fake ID in its own little case, something sparkly and impressive (but that does not actually copy a law enforcement badge), and bring it out, acting outraged. (Do you know who I am? Do you know who reports to me? Do you know I can make your life a miserable hell?) This might help in a language-barrier situation.

    Bringing out a cheap camera and trying to take a picture might help. (Cheap because it shouldn’t be your expensive beloved digital, but a throw-away camera no one would want to steal.)

    I have to skedaddle, but two additional things; the back of one’s hand and the hollow of one’s throat are extremely sensitive spots. If some guy is backing you into the wall while trying to “romance” you (ugh, sorry: I mean to differentiate between situations in which he is trying to kill you), pressing a knuckle or fingertip into that throat hollow will often stop him in his tracks. It’s aggressive, but it’s quietly aggressive, and does not automatically connote your willingness to engage in a big ol’ brawl. And back of the hand pressure is surprisingly painful.

    The fact is, they will nearly always be able to out-muscle us. That’s why I’m in favor of whatever works. And that includes appealing to other men for help, if you think it might work, and if you don’t have to depart with your “rescuer”. ‘Cause you never know: frying pan/fire.

  27. Oudemia — It was a bar on one of the streets on Bastile. I don’t know the actual name but my friends said it looked bloody dodgy and it was very smoky and dimly lit.

  28. I too, like many of the other posters, have been grabbed- three continents over. The hardest place for me to react in was in Morocco. In Morocco men definitely leered, made comments and tried touching (on very few occasions), but the worse “perpetrators” of this was actually children. The worst thing about this is that many are kids living on the streets who must resort to prostitution. I know this is not exactly the same as what Aulelia posted about, but it brings up a lot of questions about how to behave in these circumstances. The kids were encouraged if I screamed at them, and kept following if I ignored them. Getting the police involved in Morocco was not an option, in my opinion, given what the children may be put through if that happened. Strange when all of these issues intersect in a very real way on the street.

  29. All of the worst instances of sexual harassment that I have experienced have happened in places where I’m either obviously an outsider (don’t speak the language, am obviously travelling) or am otherwise at a disadvantage. It’s really scary, especially if you don’t know how to respond, if anyone will back you up (like a bartender or other women on the street), and what the police might do if things escalate.

    One thing that has been suggested to me by other women is buying a cheap ring and wearing it as a wedding ring. One friend was very resistant to doing this, but after being harassed and threatened with assault while travelling alone in southern Italy, she did it and said it helped a lot. Especially if she talked about her husband a lot. Y’know, women are property, so harassing or assaulting a woman who actually belongs to someone else is a no no.

  30. Aulelia and Lee- I’ve found Scotland to be quite beautiful. But, both times, unfortunately- yes, I was walking alone, at night. And I am quite aware that I have every right to do so. And during the day, I”ve had no problems. I would even say that most people were extremely helpful. Just not in those two cases. So, two vacations, a total of maybe 24 days total in Scotland- experienced being grabbed and guided by two men twice. I just found the bar situation to be the most shocking: Sure, mostly older Glaswegians, but really: It does not matter the accent- I told the men to get off me. What I can’t figure out is why nobody else told the men to get their hands off of me.

    On a side note: When visiting a very liberal Scottish friend, he was shocked to learn that I am a feminist. I was shocked that he did not know that I am (how could he not), and he had this notion that we were man-hating, insert random stereo-type here, et cetera. I have since totally schooled that 35 y/o boy. He even (shocker!) now knows about sex-positive feminism. But, it does make me wonder what people are being taught about sex/gender roles, and proper boundaries, in Scotland. Again, not trying to pick Scotland. And both times that I encountered the physical harassment, the four men had been drinking, or were quite obviously beyond intoxication.

    One last note: Months back, when there was the article written in the UK (the telegraph?) about the terrible women who drink at bars and expect nothing to happen to them? Another Scottish friend, when I derided it on my silly Myspace blog, did not get it. But, I guess there is hope, considering that plenty of UK respondents to the initial article deemed it rubbish that women should be held accountable, or whatever nonsense that was, for having the audacity of getting drunk in bars. In short, you know Ms. Knight (I think?) “I’m not saying it’s the woman’s fault, but it’s the woman’s fault”.

  31. oh, my point to the above diatribe: My friend Mike in Scotland did not understand why I went off on this article in the UK. He and my now-feminist-understanding-friend George, are great friends, who grew up privileged, and as school chums from way back. So, I do not know where the problem originates, but maybe some American Feminist programs are in order. You know, we go over, school young UK kids from an early age, let them know it’s not okay? It just seems to stem from the way the kids are raised, possibly.

    And I know there are feminists in the UK, damnit! I want to go to Ladyfest Leeds, but ah, pipe dreams!

  32. Some phrases that may come in handy:

    Tu rigoles.

    (You must be joking.)

    Va te faire foutre, espèce de connard.

    (Fuck off, asshole.)

    Mon copain te piétinera la gueule.

    (My boyfriend will stomp on your face.)

  33. I’m not sure whether you’re referring to the general French population or the immigrant population, but I never felt this from the French during the five months I lived in France. Maybe I was just lucky, but the only harassment I ever encountered came from the immigrant population. But there you’re right, it was pretty unrelenting.

  34. Reading all the other comments about “it happened to me, too”, I’m reminded most strongly of the advice given by a (male) martial arts expert, who specialised in teaching hard-fighting self-defence.

    He wrote a book called “The Two-Second Fight” (because if a street fight breaks out, that’s how long you’ve got to get the upper hand). A lot of the advice was about how to control a situation either to avoid a fight, or make sure you get your shot in first.

    He said that you set up a barrier posture – at least one hand extended in front of you, possibly both, and use that to monitor how the situation is developing. His advice was that, if your adversary grew more aggressive, the chances were he would edge forward and brush the barrier posture. The second time that happened, you had to be ready to let rip immediately (he advised some form of misdirection, like asking a question just before doing so, to make your shot more effective).

    Why I think of that is the way in which these men invade women’s personal space repeatedly, even after their target becomes hostile. A first invasion might be accidental, but a second is deliberate. The details are not for me to suggest (I being neither a self-defence expert nor a woman, my comments on the matter would be at best half-assed) but my suspicion is that the conditions need to be made explicit (a man might recognise the fighting posture in another man, but might not recognise it in a woman) – e.g. “touch me again, I’ll…”

    One thing I would very much like to know, is what I should do (as a man) if I witness something like this developing?

    My instinctive response is to step in there, and make my opinion of the male aggressor known clearly, with appropriate back-up options (i.e. actions if words are not sufficient). That comes from a combination of wanting to stick up for women on a feminist level, and the patriarchal values of men having a duty to look after women (I can’t deny that second part of why I want to take action – it exists as a part of my psychology).

    A slightly more intellectual argument suggests that the feminist intention would not matter, that the action would only serve to reinforce the patriarchal “duty-honour” system by disempowering the woman involved – maybe I should let the woman fend for herself, at least until it becomes obvious that she is unable to do so.

    I lean towards the logic that, when you see a bad situation, you do what it takes to put an end to it, and worry about the symbolism afterwards.

    (Incidentally, this is an issue that is not unique to me, or even unique to pro-feminist males – I am aware that a lot of men genuinely feel disempowered observing such a situation because they no longer know what is expected of them)

  35. legality of weapons (and, in fact, the very concept of self-defense) varies wildly from country to country in Europe. for example, in the UK it is generally illegal to carry any object with the intention (as judged by law enforcement) to use it as a weapon.

    oddly enough, there are places (even in the USA, for that matter) where less-lethal weapons such as sprays are more heavily proscribed than some outright weapons such as knives. likely because knife laws tend to be old, but less-lethal-weapons laws are recent.

  36. SnowdropExplodes: I really don’t understand your post. You’re a male so you don’t know how to act when someone is being mistreated in front of you? Don’t act like a man, then, act like a human being! Whenever you are a witness to a bad situation or a situation that might get worse, you step in there.

    I do it, and I’m a woman. I do it when I see guys picking on each other, grown-ups picking on kids, kids picking on each other, couples fighting, cops picking on immigrants or down-and-outs or non-white people … What do I do? I stop, watch, and get close enough to let them know that I am stopping and watching. Then if that’s not enough, I go and talk to the PERSON being picked on, ask them if they are okay, or if they need any help? I don’t talk to the aggressor if I can help it, the point is to validate the point of view and the existence of the person being picked on.

    That usually does the trick. I’ve never had to fight anybody (I’m tiny). And yes, I’m using not male privilege, but white middle-class respectable female privilege (goes a long way with cops). But I step in there and I don’t leave until things de-escalate or I’m told to leave by the person being picked on. This usually happens with the couples, with the abused wife/girlfriend telling me it’s okay because it’s normal. Which makes me want to scream, but I respect their request, because at least it is an example of someone treating them with respect for the aggressor to take note of …

    Any other thoughts? I’m a descendant of a holocaust survivor (dad) and my parents tried to do a good job of teaching me not to turn a blind eye to injustices …

  37. I am so shocked to hear that about Gerard Depardieu. I cannot…I actually cannot comprehend that. I agree with you about your comment about those who rape being subhuman.

    you know……that guy always kind of gave me the creeps, and i could never figure out why. but now i have a pretty good idea.

    never watching another movie with him in it again will be completely painless. except maybe that one where matthew broderick and meg ryan torture him…..that was pretty satisfying.

  38. SnowdropExplodes, I think what Cassie said is right on the money. If I’m being harassed or threatened, I appreciate people trying to help. I appreciate it even more if people do so in ways that don’t cause the situation to escalate further, and don’t totally remove my agency. Like, if I was being harassed, and a stranger asked me if I was okay or if they could help me, I would appreciate that, because it allows me to still be in charge of the situation. I don’t appreciate strange men jumping up to defend me without first finding out if I actually need or want help. I’m sure I’m not the only one who has been in the totally ridiculous situation of watching two strangers (always men) go off on each other, totally forgetting the other person involved in the incident.

    Another thing that’s important to keep in mind is that many guys get more aggressive when men intervene because they perceive it as a threat or a challenge to their masculinity. So even men with the best of intentions may cause a situation to escalate.

    Cassie, I also tend to stop and watch police when they’re dealing with homeless people, young people, and people of colour. The cops always seem pretty incredulous that I, as a young white middle class woman in a big city, don’t immediately identify the police as my protectors.

  39. You know, in my rush to tell my “me too” story I forgot to ad my point which is that I’ve started being VERY loud if I’m uncomfortable about anything. Obviously if I were alone somewhere this would be useless, but in general I’m usually in a place where there are other people (even if at home asleep in their houses near by).

    Looong ago during my first year of college a speaker came to talk about date rape and his main advice was to never for a second worry about looking foolish. He pulled out all the stats that show that women who fight back tend to come out much better in the end in most assault situations. I’m not saying to take a swing but to loudly scream “stop, you are bothering me!” and then if it escalates, fight with all you’ve got. He even suggested other actions if screaming isn’t getting the desired result – like tossing a stone through a window.

    Anyway, I’m pretty aggressive these days if I get harassed or ‘accidentally’ touched. My ongoing favorite for verbal harassment is the stop, look slightly confused and ask “I’m sorry? I didn’t quite get that, could you repeat that please?” with the most polite, innocent tone possible as if I really didn’t understand. If they say it again, I seem slightly confused and ask for more detail, “you said you want to what? I didn’t quite hear you.” Usually by the second or third time they feel like a moron saying something so clearly inappropriate again and again.

  40. Cassie: The concern is feeding into the aggressor’s mindset and potentially making the situation worse. It can be difficult to gauge what the aggressor actually wants. Take Christina B’s example from comment #13:

    “The only time that someone has responded aggressively to my rejection is when I was with my boyfriend and they wanted to fight him. I guess it isn’t that odd, women are used as pawns in the masculinity securing, heirarchy creating, immature games that men play with each other.”

    Add that in to your own comment about the abused wife/girlfriends reaction and you’re left with a very real uncertainty as to the kind of action to take and it’s efficacy.

  41. I lived in Italy for a semester, and I didn’t have much of a problem with harassment, though perhaps its because I went into the country prepared for it.

    Other girls at my school had some problems, though.

  42. maybe some American Feminist programs are in order. You know, we go over, school young UK kids from an early age, let them know it’s not okay? It just seems to stem from the way the kids are raised, possibly.

    Holly R, are you serious?? Mote, eye, beam, etc.

  43. R@d@r and Aulelia – it really is a pity about Depardieu, because while I despise his English-language movies (which are always retarded comedies that hinge on him being French), two of his French-language movies: Cyrano de Bergerac, and Touts les matins du monde, were favorites of mine in the 1990’s. He really does a fine job in them. Rather like Wagner wrote fantastic operas but was a miserable and well-documented anti-Semite. Of course as far as we know, Wagner never personally killed any Jews, whereas Depardieu actually confessed to raping a girl.

    re: harassment…in my experience, silence or attempting to ignore the harasser only leads to more harassment. What works the best is either a sudden, loud emphatic “GET AWAY!” with eye contact (lets them know you will fight if threatened, most don’t want to risk injury and will only harass as long as it seems safe) or, if in a safe-enough area with enough people around, a witheringly emasculating comment delivered very dryly and calmly. The latter will produce a lot of swearing but it sure is satisfying.

  44. Tom: I understand what you’re saying. It’s true sometimes people are just trying to pick fights by behaving obnoxiously. And it’s true that I haven’t ever been in a situation where they are trying to pick fights with me! I don’t think I’m very interesting to fight.

    In general I try to avoid addressing the aggressor at all, by talking or body language, eye contact, anything. I stand parallel to them, talking to the person being harassed, and pointedly ignore the aggressor by not mentioning them. For example, I say: Do you need help? not: Is this man bothering you?

    I think it’s still the right thing to do to step in and try to prevent bad things from happening, even if that means one gets some of the attention formerly directed at the victim redirected to oneself. I’m not advocating being suicidal by any means, just being willing to take some crap to help out someone else.

    And regarding the abused girlfriends/wives: the husbands/boyfriends never turned their anger on me. I’ve actually been surprised by that. They either shut up or mutter something about how it’s all the woman’s fault, she was asking for it, etc, crappy enough, but not aimed at me. So I never was remotely the worse off for trying to help out in those situations.

  45. This topic is one I think about a lot. I have been routinely harassed every time I go out alone since I was about 11 years old. I have lived in two different parts of the US and it is just as bad in one as it is in the other. I’ve found that being overtly aggressive does not help and in some situations makes the situation scarier. For example, I was once harassed by a man in a car while walking home. I yelled “get fucked”, to which he responded “get fucked? okay” and then started backing up the car to where I was with what I perceived as the intention to grab me.

    Unfortunately it is not unusual for me to experience street harassment in the form of yells, leers, groping, grabbing, outright threats, being followed home, and attempted abduction. I’ve found that the best response is to either act completely insane, or become as disgusting as possible (this is the option I usually choose, acted out in the form of pretending to pick my nose and acting like I’m going to throw it at them). I think the best response varies by culture, but that those two options are the best within the US.

  46. Weirdly, in the year I spent travelling solo in Europe (England, the Isle of Man, Ireland, Scotland, France, Italy), I didn’t notice any more harassment than I get when I go out solo here in Canada. Which isn’t to say there was none, of course. Lots of men tried to chat me up, all over the damn place. Mostly in French, even in Italy, which would often catch me off guard—somone would ask “Vous parlez français?” and I’d have responded “Oui” before I realised it was yet another attempt at a pick up. Then I’d answer a question or two before excusing myself. They were usually Algerian or Moroccan, too.

    In Venice, men stared. Frankly. Openly. My first day there I spent the entire day wondering if I’d suddenly sprouted purple horns from my forhead or something, until I realised that no, I was just wandering around being female. Eventually I learned to ignore it.

    In pubs in Scotland guys would regularly ask me out, and generally try to chat me up. Nobody ever laid a finger on me. Ditto the Isle of Man, Ireland, and England. On the Isle of Man, I worked as a barmaid, and the locals tended to tease and watch out for the pub staff.

    I don’t know if my experience was different because I was oblivious (except to the blatant attempts to chat me up), or because it was a while ago.

  47. @r@d@r: That’s not Depardieu in that movie; it’s Tchéky Karyo — a fine actor whom I quite like. Please, however, do not tell me that he runs internment camps or something in his spare time.

  48. Cassie and debbie, the problem is one of the signals that men have been receiving from feminism. The “natural” instinct of “what is right” feels like something that women no longer want us, as men, to act on, because it is “patriarchal” and “disempowering”. That is the message that men collectively have received from you.

    However, you’ve given the very best possible advice:

    stop, watch, and get close enough to let them know that I am stopping and watching. Then if that’s not enough, I go and talk to the PERSON being picked on, ask them if they are okay, or if they need any help? I don’t talk to the aggressor if I can help it, the point is to validate the point of view and the existence of the person being picked on.

    That’s what men need to know.

    It is instructive to me (and I find it slightly disturbing) that it’s a course of action that didn’t occur to me when I was posting.

    The narrative men are sold is one of going into battle on behalf of the “maiden”, of a White Knight” doing battle with a “Black Knight”. It is sold to us as a matter of masculine honour to do what is right. It is most definitely not presented to us as a social situation to be resolved, but as a direct contest. (The same is not true if there is no obvious adversary)

    Feminism appears to tell us, “we don’t want men acting on our behalf” so the cultural narrative is removed, and we feel disempowered, blamed if we act as we feel we “should” but dishonoured if we do not act.

  49. Cassie Says:
    In general I try to avoid addressing the aggressor at all

    I find this interesting because my instinct is the exact opposite; the victim has been unfairly pulled into the situation and shouldn’t be further pressed to make decisions. By addressing the aggressor, you allow the woman to return to being left alone and, if need be, escape. It reminds me of being bullied in school, not that it happened to me much, but when it did, I wanted it stopped not to be asked if I wanted it stopped.

    And as a man, this also neatly avoids being perceived as trying to be Prince Charming and basically doing what the aggressor was doing; making unwanted advances.

    In any case, I haven’t been in many of these situations, so my instinct could be completely wrong.

  50. I study martial arts and the one bit of advice I can give is that if the situation escalates call for help and try to get away as quickly as possible. Most people won’t attack someone unless they are bigger and stronger than the person they are attacking. The goal of fighting back is making sure that the attacker cannot grab you or follow you. In terms of personal safety, it is very important to keep distance between you and the harasser and to call for help. If he has a weapon or manages to grab and keep hold of you or wrestle you to the floor or into an enclosed space or a car things can get very bad very quickly. There are good techniques for making someone who grabs you let go, and kicking out a knee, stomping hard on a foot, or going for his groin can impair a man’s ability to chase you.

    I strongly agree with judybrowni about how to handle men who are harassing you or other people. I personally would be hesitant to yell back or in any way threaten his masculinity. I do not want the man to fixate on me or get angry and violent. It may be different in countries in which local women do yell back. I know that when my mother lived in Italy in the 1970s, she avoided harassment by dressing like the Italian women in the area and by not making eye contact or smiling at people when walking. She always spoke in Italian and most people she met thought she was British not American. Even then there was a myth among Italian men that American women are “easy” compared to European women.

  51. Whenever someone tells me how sexually “liberated” Europe is, I think of shit like this — how women’s bodies are “liberated” and yeah, you see boobs and maybe a vulva or two everywhere, but how many dicks do you see?

    Frankly we have seen penises in ads and magazines and in free tv. A magazine for teenagers has featured nude pictures (one hers, one his) for years. It also answers questions about sex, STD’s, contraception and has given away condoms.

    And thanks for all the Euro-bashing. Anyone here who has been harassed in Copenhagen, Hamburg or Oslo? As a rule of thumb: The more south you go, the more prevalent the macho culture is.

    To whistle is a somehow accepted form of flirting for men and women in France. The gang rapes certainly are not accepted in any way and a byproduct of immigrants rammed into ghettos with rotten schools and closing of local police stations. They have no chance to ever get out of the banlieue and get a job. The new president has made it clear that he does not want them and he was the one to close the police stations.

    I’ld really like to see the debate shift from someone-grabbed-my-ass-in-the-metro to ways-to-make-so-much-noise-our-president-is-going-to-kick-france’s-president’s-butt-because-of-his-freaking-failure.

    Thanks.

  52. Cassie and debbie, the problem is one of the signals that men have been receiving from feminism. The “natural” instinct of “what is right” feels like something that women no longer want us, as men, to act on, because it is “patriarchal” and “disempowering”. That is the message that men collectively have received from you.

    Huh. I missed that message. The message I’ve been getting is “women are people too, and deserve to be treated as such.”
    If I were being threatened or attacked, and someone could help but chose not to, I’d be pissed. I expect that most women would feel the same way.

    I find this interesting because my instinct is the exact opposite; the victim has been unfairly pulled into the situation and shouldn’t be further pressed to make decisions. By addressing the aggressor, you allow the woman to return to being left alone and, if need be, escape…
    And as a man, this also neatly avoids being perceived as trying to be Prince Charming and basically doing what the aggressor was doing; making unwanted advances.

    I think it probably depends on the situation, but I’m more likely to interpret behavior as being “Prince Charming” type if the guy rushes in and confronts the attacker. Then he’s the knight in shining armor coming to protect the weaker woman. Asking her if she wants help when someone is bothering her isn’t making an unwanted advance. And if she takes it that way, you back off. You tried to help, it wasn’t wanted or needed, you step away. If she takes your offer to help as an unwanted advance, you don’t think she’s going to take you confronting the perceived attacker as an advance, too?

    I generally think, as a bystander, it’s better to address the person being harassed, because it helps defuse the situation and decreases the odds of escalating the situation. You’re dealing with someone who has already shown a disregard for other people- confronting that person directly is more likely to add fuel to the situation than addressing the person being bothered.

    Plus, you never know if the woman being harassed wants your help, unless you ask.

  53. Do you think that when a man is threatening perhaps he may want the victim to shout back ?

    Maybe. Like I said, use your judgment on a case by case basis. My goal is to avoid being beaten up, and I don’t know that aggressive responses to threats and harassment are compatible with that goal.

  54. Hey SoE – thanks for telling us whats REALLY important! cuz we didn’t know and stuff.

  55. SoE: Right on!

    Mighty Ponygirl, if you want to see dicks in the open, go to any beach or park in Denmark on a sunny day. I hate to say it, but you’ll have to put up with a few boobs and maybe even a vulva as well. Nobody expects a man or a woman to undress completely when suntanning or swimming, but some choose to do so. We generally don’t walk around naked in the public so in your average mall there will be very few dicks to look at.

  56. I get the logic behind addressing the woman rather than the aggressor, it’s just the nature of intimidation makes it difficult to gauge the seriousness of the woman’s response; “I’m fine” when they’re not, or more specifically what is meant by “help.”

    But as it’s been repeatedly said, it depends on the situation.

    I would like to say that it’s been awesome to focus on the most important aspect of aggression and violence towards woman: How it affects my feelings as a man.

    High five, anyone?

  57. I didn’t say you don’t know what’s important. I asked to return to a discussion about the gang-rapes and what to do about it.

  58. SoE makes one valid point, though: it’s wrong to make generalizing statements about Europe. As a Dane, I was offended by Mighty Ponygirl’s comment. (For the record, I do NOT agree with SoE’s “there are more important things” comment – this is an important discussion.)

    I can’t make assumptions about places I haven’t been, but the one time I’ve experienced a man trying to grope me in Denmark, I yelled at him and immediately had the support of the people around me. We are still far from having a truly feminist society (like everywhere else in the world), and I’m usually the first in line to point that out, but it is not socially acceptable behaviour to grope a woman in public here, tourist or not.

    And there is no such thing as “European sexuality”. Europe consists of many diverse cultures and the differences can be greater than you think.

    I’m sorry if I’m overreacting here, but it just really annoys me to see Europeans being lumped together in one big group. It just doesn’t make any sense.

  59. OMG, I know exactly how you feel. I just got back from a study abroad stay in Paris, and the men there were so much more aggressive than I’ve known before. Actually, it’s given me the motivation for being a more outspoken feminist, because no woman should need to be scared of going out of their apartment alone, as sometimes I was. In fact, a couple of male professors pooh-poohed my and some other female classmates’ concerns about safety and the measures we felt pressured enough to take on the streets. A couple other professors agreed with us and the measures we used, but still, the lack of value assigned to my experience from the authority figures was astounding. Was I imaging all this misogyny? I think not, not when other female students (and one female professor) had so much anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

  60. Agreed, SoE, an old perv trying to feel up my butt is NOTHING compared to the original post. But with this administration, I tend to think they would say the problems overseas were cases of “boys will be boys” and not take it as the serious problem that it is. Or maybe take, at most, a Mr. Mackie approach:

    “Rape is bad, m’kay?”

    C’mon, 08!!!

  61. SoE, the question posed at the beginning of the entry is “Can women ever be aggressive towards men AND for that to be acceptable?”. Talking about past experiences of street harassment and coping methods is perfectly valid and on-topic. If you want to address the other issues/questions brought up in the entry, why don’t you post something thought-provoking on the topic?

  62. I read the question too but I feel its inappropriate to mix up sexual harassment and (this) gang-rape in one post.

    I already asked for waya to make George W. Bush make kick Sarkozy’s butt. If I didn’t provoke any thoughts over that here’s another thought.
    It’s racism.
    Poor young immigrants without any perspective would never vote for Sarkozy so he tries his best to ignore them, after he abandoned local police stations in favor of heavily armed squadrons.

    Sarkozy reiterated his previous qualifications of housing projects youth as “rabble” or “scum”, which, with his pre-riots call for the suburbs to be “cleaned with a Karcher” – a reference to a common brand of high-pressure industrial hose – were said by rioters to be one of the main reasons for the civil unrest.

  63. Re Gerard Depardieu – there was supposedly a “false friend” translation from French to English here. I believe Depardieu translated literally from the French “assister a”, which sounds like it should mean “took part in” or “assisted”. In fact it means “to be present at”. It doesn’t make it much better, but it is a well known faux ami.

  64. Jennie and Juybrowni:

    I have always started out by being polite- it has dawned on me (after being grabbed twice, by two men at once (both times- to be clear)), that “being polite” got me nowhere. In fact, I wonder if it is not at times perceived as a sign of weakness, thus encouraging aggressors.

    Oh, and being asked out- not a threat. Being grabbed by two men at once, or even one, and people ignoring the situation- that’s a threat. That’s when it is time to get aggressive back, or run away, cause a scene, et cetera. Plenty of men have asked me out in Ireland and Scotland, and “no, thanks” worked for them. That’s not what we’re talking about, here.

  65. According to (I know, not the best source) Imdb, “Time magazine ran a profile that mistakenly suggested that Depardieu might have “participated” in a rape at the age of nine. The claim was based on an interview carried out 13 years earlier and was the result of an incorrect translation. Depardieu is now careful about proper translation.”

  66. When I was 16, I complained to my boyfriend about some older men slowing down in a truck to whistle make catcalls at me.

    His reaction? “Well, you should appreciate it. It’s like a compliment. They thought you were hot.”

  67. Aulelia, is it easy for you to go to London? Unfortunately, the IMPACT-style self-defense organization there doesn’t do group classes for the public, in general, but they told me that any individual women who contact them wanting the full Basics course will be accomodated as well as they can. (I’m not sure what they had in mind–perhaps letting them join a class that a nonprofit or corporation bought for their employees/beneficiaries?)

    Anyway, I can put you in touch if you’d like to get about 30 fights worth of practice into your muscle memory and subconscious. (Some of those “fights” are verbal deescalation, by the way–you find out whether your verbal deescalation will work as you try it!)

    I think the scariest thing is wondering what would happen in your body & mind if men got physically agressive, rather than verbally agressive, when you firmly rejected them.

    IMPACT-style classes will give you dozens of experiences with that so you’ll never have to wonder again.

    *shrug*

    It’s not fair that this is the best I can offer (rather than offering to change the men in Paris), but as one of my IMPACT instructors said, “While I’ll work to make men change, I’m not going to wait and do nothing until that happens.” So here I am, offering it to you.

    If you can’t get to London or they can’t offer you any classes, perhaps we can chat on the phone. Once I get my phone working again, I have free phone calls to French land lines. I can tell you what I learned in my dozens of fights and where my mind goes now (in my dreams…haven’t been attacked during waking hours). (I’ve taken multiple assailants class, too, so if you’re really worried about gangs, I can let you know how the psychology and strategy often differs against them.)

  68. The fact is, they will nearly always be able to out-muscle us. That’s why I’m in favor of whatever works. And that includes appealing to other men for help, if you think it might work,

    Out-muscle…yes…but…

    There are places that NEVER develop muscle, even on a man.

    1) The groin
    2) The head

    Please always keep that in mind. (Also keep in mind that using your open palm to slap a groin is NOT something men think of–they think of a foot to the balls–so if they’ve got you pinned from behind or the side or something, they are SO wide open.)

    Another thing to keep in mind: For all the muscle in the world, a man can’t be pinning all 4 of your limbs, protecting his groin, protecting his head, AND unzipping his pants at the same time.

    If you can break through the “freeze” response an adrenaline rush might give you (which is where practice helps, but people totally do it all the time even untrained–it’s where kickass success stories such as the ones women on this thread have been sharing come from!), you’ll totally find all sorts of moments when you’re free to hit/kick him in the groin or head (might be eyes if you’re in really close quarters).

    Also, don’t forget that the fight ain’t over if he gets you off balance and you fall to the ground. You’ll get a nasty scrape on the elbow, etc. but you are TOTALLY at an advantage once you’re there. The fight has just begun. Aside from making him bend over reeling from a slap or kick/knee to the groin, that is when a man is most likely to get his head close to a range you can put your foot into.

    (Why do I keep mentioning the head? Not only because it’ll hurt him as much as a blow to the groin, but because enough blows can knock him unconscious. Knocking someone unconscious gives you enough time to get to safety without running so fast that you forget to look where you’re going and get hit by a bus. It’s not ALWAYS necessary, because a lot of times a man who got violent with you will run away mid-fight, but it’s a nice thing to have in the back of your mind as one among many potential goals in a fight.)

    Oh, and that part about not having to wander off with your rescuer–seconded!

    Anyway, most of all I just hope you take strength from all these wonderful stories of assertiveness, aggression, etc. Whatever word you want to give it, it’s not “wanting to be like men” if it’s about protecting your right to live in the world and walk your path. It’s only getting there if you use your assertiveness and aggression to prevent other people from having that same right so you can get your jollies.

  69. Another reason I want to carry around a knife. If a man ever tries to pull that shit on me, I want to at least have some chance of castrating and mutilating the fucker.

  70. Lindsay, for years I have had at least one large fold-up Leatherman style multi purpose tool in every vehicle I own, as well as scissors. Usually have a couple of smaller ones, too. I live in a rural area now, but even when I lived in Boston, Austin or Baltimore, it made sense to have around in case of break downs or unforeseen emergencies. Not only are they handy as hell in case of minor repairs (has regular flat/Phillips head screwdriver, various knife blades, can opener, wine opener, etc), but fold neatly and can sit in a pocket. Really big ones can run around $70, but worth every penny- little ones are much cheaper.

  71. I stated in my post that I was not in anyway comparing my experiences to gang rape because they do not compare of course. However, they are both forms of aggression (one more brutal and horrific than the other so that is why I mentioned it).

    Katie, I’d love some contacts – I will be in England this autumn so I would appreciate that thanks 🙂

  72. Katie, I practice a traditional form of kartedo and know how to strike people, shift my body weight, and use throws and joint techniques in self-defense. The thing I’ve always wondered about is what to do about an attacker with a gun. Traditional martial arts doesn’t deal with modern weapons other than knives, and I know that in mugging situations if the assailant has a gun, women who fight back often die. Does you IMPACT-style self-defense training offer any insights? I’d be appreciative.

  73. Sorry but this is when busting a cap in someone head is necessary preferably by female victim instead of male relatives. I just revert to my savage side when I hear about this happening to young girls..

  74. In Venice, men stared. Frankly. Openly.

    I worked in Venice for a year. Everyone stares in Venice, at everyone else. It’s disorienting at first, but I don’t actually think it’s a predatory-male thing. I always associated it with living in such a visually rich place; you get in the habit of noticing and evaluating appearance. I (female) had to break the habit when I got back to the States. For me, it was always a bit like window-shopping, but on people. (“That’s a great skirt, I wonder if it would work on me?” “I love the way he’s paired that jacket with those pants.” etc.)

    Tom, I think you need to go a step further with the feminist analysis — if you approach a woman who’s being harassed, and she says she doesn’t want your help, then… respect her agency and leave her alone. *She* is going to be a much better judge of whether your intervening will help or hurt the situation than you are, so even if she does need some help, you may not be the best person to provide it. And that’s ok.

    But either women are people with agency or they’re not. If you want to act as if they are, then you have to give them responsibility over all their decisions, whether or not you agree with them.

  75. I read the question too but I feel its inappropriate to mix up sexual harassment and (this) gang-rape in one post.

    You may feel that way and that’s something you should have taken up with the person who posted the blog, not the people posting comments that are on topic with what was posted.

    I already asked for waya to make George W. Bush make kick Sarkozy’s butt.

    I think this is an ineffective strategy for two reasons: 1. I doubt that this situation would be something that Bush would consider a pressing matter. and 2. If he were to get involved, it’s doubtful that his involvement would secure any desirable results.

    I would think that bringing this to the attention of different human rights organizations would probably be a more effective strategy.

    It’s racism.
    Poor young immigrants without any perspective would never vote for Sarkozy so he tries his best to ignore them, after he abandoned local police stations in favor of heavily armed squadrons.

    On this, we’re very much agreed. Racism with a healthy dose of xenophobia.

  76. I always remember a self defence assembly I had at my all-girls secondary school. ‘Pull and twist’ was said to be a highly effective defence method. I’m sure you can work out what part of a man I am referring to.

    I find when I am in Spain, Italy and France the men are quite agressive, but mainly because I am very pale and very blonde and so I am obviously not a native. I hear men pass me and mutter under their breath things at me, or ask how much to have sex with me (grr), and its the fact they think I can’t understand them (I speak some spanish, understand more) that emphasises the menacing, sort of undermining aspect, as if they have one up on you. I have also found in Spain mainly that the men pursue you more and will not take no for an answer.

    However, saying this, in my native England I have had to deal with many a tosser. Last time I went to my local club, a bloke actually bent down next to me and ran his hand all the way up the inside of my leg (i was wearing a dress). Needless to say, I told him where to go in no uncertain terms.

    I suppose what I’m trying to say in my post is that I have experienced this at home and abroad, like most other posters too, so I do not think it is necessarily a cultural thing, more a men-who-are-twats thing. I don’t want to stereotype by country, I am just relaying my experiences. My worst fear about being agressive back, especially if I’m alone, is that they will become violent. I hate that women have to worry about this, it’s just not fair…

  77. Cassie and debbie, the problem is one of the signals that men have been receiving from feminism. The “natural” instinct of “what is right” feels like something that women no longer want us, as men, to act on, because it is “patriarchal” and “disempowering”. That is the message that men collectively have received from you.

    Thanks for sharing, sweetheart.

    To get back on topic, I experienced a bewildering number of explicit and unwelcome come-ons from strange men in the street when I was working in Paris in 2000. And there was nothing jovial about it, either. I remember standing on a platform waiting for the RER and being approached by this one guy, whom I blew off, obviously. I then watched as he proceeded to work his way down the platform talking to EVERY woman there who wasn’t accompanied by a man, from barely teenaged girls to retired women. And RER platforms are long. He was quite obviously not getting any positive responses, and some women at the other end of the platform noticed and started moving to areas he’d already canvassed in hopes of avoiding him. Didn’t work, but heck, maybe disturbing us and getting those women to disrupt their routine was the whole point.

    I’ve never experienced anything comparable in the way of street harassment in London, Barcelona, or Madrid (surprised me, because I’d been told Spain could be very difficult for women travelling alone). I did notice some fairly appalling loud and obnoxious drunken behaviour by groups of young English male tourists in Paris and Madrid, though. But that was more indiscriminately ruining things for everybody around them, as opposed to sexual harassment. Never saw anything that bad by young Englishmen in London, though (never quite got that logic).

    Home in Vancouver, I was groped on the Skytrain by an adult male when I was 13 or 14, but since then, nothing dramatic. Except the time I got screamed at by a huge drunk guy on the way back from the fireworks, but we were packed to the gills and he would’ve had a hard time moving far enough to physically attack me. Still scary, though, and that was a case where he got even more enraged when I did my usual calm-but-tough thing. Profuse use of the c-word, all because I didn’t want to get drawn in, but still wouldn’t pretend to be sorry for my initial “mean” response (which wasn’t especially mean, considering I was being approached by a large, crude drunk. If I’d known how much of a jerk he’d be, I would’ve been meaner). Nobody said a word, but somebody must’ve pushed the silent alarm, because security got on at the next stop.

    Mind you, I’ve been taking transit regularly here for years, and have long since developed a don’t-fuck-with-me attitude. I know women who have horror stories of being sexually harassed or groped on the Skytrain or buses (to the point where one friend who lives in the ‘burbs refuses to take transit ever again), and they usually present in a not-very-confident way in public. NOT saying they bring it on themselves, just that harassers seem to have radar for sensing women who will be more upset and frightened (maybe because they’re apprehensive about taking transit in the first place?). And other than the groping incident many years ago, I’ve never experienced any kind of disturbance, sexual or otherwise, that didn’t seem to be alcohol or drug related. Can’t say the same for Paris.

    I’m more likely to be nervous about street harassment in the suburbs than in Vancouver. I’ve walked home from transit at night many, many times in my urban neighbourhood, and there always seem to be people around (and usually those other people don’t seem to know me or each other. i.e. it’s very rarely me encountering a group, at least not without there being also some random person on the block walking their dog or or having a cigarette). In the ‘burbs, especially at night, it’s much more car-dominated, and there’s virtually nobody else walking. Plus the houses are all set way back from the street. No witnesses. And with it being almost all houses, as opposed to mostly apartments, people with dogs don’t walk them as much because they have yards.

  78. I used to live on the streets in Boston, and can tell you two good survival tactics.

    1. Have a pet rat that rides on your shoulder. Especially in Boston, with a huge wild urban rat population (both a huge population…and huge rats) that seemed to work for me.

    2. Stick your finger down your throat and throw up all over the guy. Worked for me.

    No seriously. You should have seen the look on the guys face.

    As for the question of is it okay to be aggressive back…i think assertive rather than aggressive would be better. I’m a strong big girl, but I know that a typical man would have little difficulty overpowering me. I’d be too afraid that they’d just get pissed off and get more violent, or pull out a weapon or something, because you never know.

    But I think responding assertively, loudly, or unexpectedly would probably be the better thing to do.

    And can I add that I hate that we even have to have this conversation? What the hell is wrong with people that they feel it’s okay to do these things to other people?

  79. I am not wearing a wedding ring. I am not pulling the “boyfriend/husband” card. I refuse to call on the protection of some other man to protect me from another man. The fact that I am human should suffice. I will not shrink away, try to be less noticeable nor change my routes, or try to avoid you. You WILL leave me alone. I have noticed that being confrontational and calling attention to their actions does work. Most of the time.

    I used to believe that I should try to avoid confrontation. I no longer do. I came to believe that was one of the reasons men feel they can behave this way, the utter lack of accountability. So now, I am loud, confrontational and quite willing to use whatever means necessary to ensure my physical safety. I would rather face 12 in the jury box than be carried by 6.

    I live in Dallas, Texas now and last year I was leaving my night class and heading to my car, the parking lot was dark due to issues with the lights, which made it VERY DARK. As I am crossing the street to the parking lot, some guy began crossing against the light from the other direction trying to speak to me. I kept walking, my usual habit, and ignored him. He became indignant and followed me into the parking lot. I put 3 cars between him and me and turned and told him that following women he didn’t know into dark parking lots was probably not the healthiest thing to do. He became verbally abusive and continued to try and get closer to me. I hit my car’s panic alarm and told him, quite forcefully, to go away. We are now each dodging between cars, him trying to get closer and me trying to avoid him. By now, other students are trickling into the lot and notice what’s going on and he still won’t leave.

    I now carry a gun which I bought since moving here and learned to use it. I also believe that the day I have to pull that gun on someone, that I will more than likely kill them. This is because I have been taught that you do not threaten with a gun. If you pull it out, you use it or don’t pull it out. And you shoot to kill.

    Anyway, by this point, I was really becoming scared because he wasn’t backing off even though there are now about 10 other students in the parking lot trying to figure out what is going on, my car alarm is blaring, it’s pitch black outside and this has now turned into a SITUATION. I was seriously comtemplating killing another human being. But by this point, I had pretty much decided I had no choice but to pull out my gun. Right at that moment, as I am reaching for my gun, a police car comes flying down the street and pulls into the parking lot and starts shining lights everywhere. I am very glad that I was not forced to pull out my gun, but I would have.

    The police sit him in the car and talk to both of us as well as some of the other students. It turns out that this guy had three warrants for assault and was suspected in a about 5 assault/rapes in DOWNTOWN parking lots at night. I was lectured on carrying a handgun by the police but this is TEXAS so it was short. However, though, one thing in my favor is that I was NOT near my car when the police arrived. You aren’t allowed to use a gun against someone in Texas unless you are are in imminent fear of physical danger. If you are near your car, an argument could be made that you were attempting to protect your personal property, which is illegal. However, the Legislature has seen fit to decree that that is no longer the case as of Sept. 1 this year. You will legally be allowed to protect your person or personal property with deadly force.

    I did get the police report number and made a huge stink with the company that managed the parking lot and got other students and faculty to do the same to the extent that those lights worked two days later. And the night after that they weren’t operational, they left several attendants on duty after hours to escort people to their cars.

    But, I was shaken to realize how close I came to using my gun but I still would have felt justified. I work late a lot, both here and in NYC and I have noticed that men who do not want to seem threatening, do non-threatening things to at least signal that all they want to do is get where they are going. And then there are some others that deliberately try to intimidate you. I often wonder, if more women carried guns and were as willing to use them as I am, would this change?

  80. Traditional martial arts doesn’t deal with modern weapons other than knives, and I know that in mugging situations if the assailant has a gun, women who fight back often die.

    IMPACT and IMPACT-style chapters do deal with this, but it’s a class that any one chapter probably only offers once every few years, and only to people who’ve taken their Basic Skills course.

    In the Basic Skills course, though, you can feel free to ask about it and they’ll give you great advice/answers.

    I imagine they’d say something about guns being most likely a prop (especially before the fight really starts, so they might also say something about getting rid of it early) in a scenario that’s about sexual assault or some other “social category”-based dominance scenario. And they’d probably tell you that though you won’t get to practice fighting someone with a gun in that class, your practice coming up with what to do in an adrenalized state should help you size up the situation and make the best choice in the heat of the moment if faced with a gun. Adrenaline-state training is adrenaline-state training, to a certain extent. Oftentimes it doesn’t really have to be about the exact scenario you’ll face in the future–it just has to be a state you practiced being alert & fighting or talking in, period.

    Anyway, that’s what I assume they’d cover. I’m not the pro, though.

    As far as a money mugging, well, I suppose that if you really want to get into the psychology of what the gun is for (since knowing that can help you do the right thing once you ARE calmly going through your adrenalized moment), you could start with a book called Code of the Street. It’s about the logic & psychology of people who live in the ghetto, and one of the situations he covers (having interviewed people who stuck other people up) is stickups/muggings.

    And hey, I have an ex-boyfriend who, in his clear moment during a mugging (several people against him & a friend who froze), pushed her into a run and took off running…and it worked.

    Which is not what you’d expect to work really well based on Code of the Street‘s description of money muggers.

    But it did.

    Anyway, for you, since you’ve had so much training, I’d say what you would get most out of IMPACT-style training is the experience of thinking, “Holyshit he’s pinning me down when I just woke up and saying he’s going to kill me if I fight him!” and fighting full force anyway (they wear so much padding that you can kick, knee, punch, poke, etc. at full force).

    You might not need it–my ex didn’t have any such training and stayed clear-headed–or it might help. Who knows. (There’s also an IMPACT instructor who said the training saved his life by making him jump out of the way of a careening minivan instead of freezing in place when he saw it coming! Hee!)

    Does that start to answer your question at all about how to size up people with guns and how to treat the info that comes from that sizing up?

  81. But either women are people with agency or they’re not.

    Meh. Trust intuition, but be wise and learned enough to tell intuition apart from prejudice/stereotypes. Feminism is good for the latter. Feminist principles should not override the former…they should only make one strive to have the latter down pat (and should help one get there).

    I mean, Tom was referring to “women” getting into situations where they don’t say what they mean because the intimidation worked, and hey, I’d actually call that…a loss of agency. But it’s not a loss of agency that came about because of gender, in my opinion. It’s a loss of agency that came about because of intimidation techniques, which can work on anybody (it’s merely the nature and intensity of the technique that varies along social category power lines), if you think about it.

    I myself believe that people of all groups can have things happen to them that make them lose some degree (even all, for a moment?) of their agency.

    So in my opinion, if one intuits that this has truly happened to a person via that agency-depleting technique called “effective intimidation,” it might actually be the best and most moral thing to listen to one’s own intuition more than one is listening to the words of that person.

    (But please don’t forget that I also think it’s essential to use things like feminist theory to tell if that “hunch” is really intuition / is really correct.)

  82. Katie, I think what I mean, though, is especially if you’re a guy walking into a confrontation between a man and a woman, it’s probably best to tread carefully and follow the woman’s cues (assuming here she’s the one being abused). I think otherwise the stepping-in guy is likely to escalate the argument, in a way that a woman stepping in may not.

    I guess I’m thinking of things like studies showing that domestic abusers who are reported to the police being more likely to escalate the abuse when they get home. I fear that a guy insisting on a white knight routine in an ambiguous situation could quite possibly do more harm than good, and that the woman involved in the situation is more likely to be able to suss that out than he is.

    Which doesn’t make any of that right, of course. (And I’m not talking about an assault in progress; in that case, I’d say do whatever you can to break it up.)

  83. I’m thinking there is also an important distinction between a guy stepping into a situation with the intent of “saving the woman” (e.g., “leave her alone or I’ll fight you” or “you heard the lady”) versus a guy stepping in to call out the aggressor on their behavior (e.g. “That’s not cool” or “don’t be an ass.”)

    The first is somewhat objectifying of women – she’s weak and in need of saving. The latter is siding with the woman, focusing on letting the aggressor know that what he is doing is not appropriate.

    Stepping in to “save her” perpetuates the larger problem of women being without practical agency. She is weak, and needs to be saved, both in the mind of the guy stepping in, and in the mind of the aggressor who may defer to an intervening male because of respect for the maleness, without acknowledging his own behavior as wrong.

    It might be more useful to focus on the inappropriate behavior of the aggressor, and giving the message that this behavior will earn him contempt from men as well as women, rather than reinforcing the aggressor’s belief that a woman alone is weak and that men will determine her fate by aggression or intervention.

  84. Katie,

    Thanks for the info. It makes sense that sometimes people pull guns for the primary purpose of threatening rather than shooting their victims. I was thinking about it from the perspective that no one pulls a weapon that he or she doesn’t intend to use, and that empty-hand techniques against someone who really intends to shoot you would be pretty useless given how much immediate damage a bullet can cause. I will definitely check out Code of the Street, it sounds interesting. I don’t know if I have access to IMPACT-style training in my area, but I would certainly be interested in taking a class. Traditional martial arts are great, but they take a personal improvement and slow learning perspective to mastering the art. I think that training that has a more immediate focus on self defense and especially on how to handle fear and high adrenaline situations would be very useful for most women.

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