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Responding to Raising Children in Our Way-Past-Gender Society.

In this post I respond to the comments to Raising Children in Our Way-Past-Gender Society. I found them to be better building blocks in the conversation than my own first guest post.

I would like to note at the outset that I wrote in personal terms as an effective way to elicit commentary on the more general matters at play. I think that worked. It is worth noting that I won’t be having children any time soon. Much to your relief, I imagine. Nor was me, mikey meant to be the main thrust of my post, even as I (and commenters) asked where these tensions might exist within me. I simply hijacked the syntax of personality to talk about the social issues.

So what was I trying to say? Zuzu points out the analogy of athiest parents also sending their children to Hebrew school, and I think that gets to the heart of my concern as to gender. I had found that I was thinking about raising children, and that my instinct was that my children’s parents should be capable of serving as both Modern Woman and Man, Traditional Man and Woman – Athiest and Hebrew School – for them as to a large part of their gender-learning experience. Why? To, as Sailorman wrote, “expand” but not “prohibit” their social options.

The phrase “fluent in the language and practice of traditional gendered womanhood” was something that I originally intended to define in my original note. Instead, I accidentally clicked “publish,” and I now believe there was a hint of the divine in that. First, that is because I think there is something inherently challenging about defining that – a challenge in which I believe the conversation would have gotten bogged down. Second, based on the comments, I think there was generally a shared understanding of what I meant.

However, asking what would parents do to “serve as both Modern Woman and Man, Traditional Man and Woman – Athiest and Hebrew School” brings us right back to what being “fluent in the language and practice of traditional gendered womanhood” (or man) means. I again refuse to define it. Instead I will say more modestly that I believe there is a cluster of behaviors, practices, words that we – you, me, us – will associate with being a “traditional woman” (or man). {While we could spend time arguing what is in or out of the bounds of that cluster, I decline to here.} I hope that, for maximizing a child’s ability to be the self they want to be, that they would be lovingly exposed to the language and practice of an array of gender options.

§

A number of the comments said that this is a bit overwrought. This idea includes: 1 modern pop culture and other people – friends, family, etc – will continue inundate people with traditional conceptions of gender; 2 that if I live the life I want, love the woman I want, and relax and let all of us live our lives, then any concern for children living their authentic lives will be moot. My response to 1 is: perhaps. My response to 2 is: I certainly think everyone should live the lives they want, and that I should love the woman I want, who should live the life she wants. I was thinking I should concern myself with parenting – even now.

AFM comments that the concept of “wife” is inherently problematic, and I link to the biography of one of my law school professors who agrees here.

I meant the phrase “way-past-gender society” to envelope those people – like myself – who consider concepts of gender skeptically. I adapted the phrase from this article about American Apparel – the context there was: “A young woman friend recently reported that [the Baby Rib Men’s Brief] is the perfect pair of underpants to put on when you “have your period or just want to climb into bed and vegetate.” It’s also cool in the our-generation-is-so-past-gender way that American Apparel “does” cool.”


96 thoughts on Responding to <i>Raising Children in Our Way-Past-Gender Society.</i>

  1. Mikey, let me throw this back at you.

    Would you want your kid to be able to “serve” (weird choice of verb, I think) only as a Traditional Man and a Modern Man if born male, and only as a Traditional Woman and a Modern Woman if born female? Or would you want a child born either way to be able to operate within any of the four categories?

    And here’s another question — what’s the difference between “Modern Man,” to your mind, and “Modern Woman”? And how modern are those categories, really, if there’s still a bright line between Man and Woman?

  2. Yes, but American Apparel is also problematic in the way it does “cool”.

    Of course it is “cool” for some skinny hawt girl to wear some boy briefs when she is taking a break of being sexy 24/7 but it is less “cool” when a butch (for my purposes here a gender, not an adjective) wear men’s underwear or other men’s clothing.

    Not to mention their advertising is totally misogynist and their CEO is an asshole –or just innocently subject to many a sexual harassment lawsuit.

  3. Instead I will say more modestly that I believe there is a cluster of behaviors, practices, words that we – you, me, us – will associate with being a “traditional woman” (or man). {While we could spend time arguing what is in or out of the bounds of that cluster, I decline to here.}

    This is what confirmed my suspicions that you’re totally missing the point.

  4. Mikey, you forgot an important category of responses: those that think you’re at best hopelessly optimistic about how much progress we’ve made and at worst a disingenuous self-justifier.

    When women are not getting raped and beaten by men and when transwomen in the media don’t routinely die by violence, then tell me how we’re in post-patriarchy.

  5. Welcome to a feminist blog, mikey! The personal is always political, and the political is always personal.

    … what being “fluent in the language and practice of traditional gendered womanhood” (or man) means. I again refuse to define it.

    I don’t think we can have a productive dialogue unless you are willing to define your concepts and terms. If anything, it lets all of us involved have an understanding of one another and what we’re trying to say.

    Instead I will say more modestly that I believe there is a cluster of behaviors, practices, words that we – you, me, us – will associate with being a “traditional woman” (or man). {While we could spend time arguing what is in or out of the bounds of that cluster, I decline to here.}

    Why half-ass things? In order to begin deconstructing gender, we have to first define the language we are using. I can’t believe you’re bringing up such a weighty topic while neglecting to do the foundational work it requires.

    I take issue with your clinging to notions of femininity and masculinity (“womanhood” and “manhood”) while using the phrase “way-past-gender society”, insinuating society (by the way, which society?) has somehow surpassed or otherwise overcome/done away with/etc. gender/identity or at the very least that you are part of some sub-group that has surpassed or otherwise overcome/etc. gender/identity. The fact that you identify as a ‘man’ who is looking for a ‘woman’ so that you both may inculcate your future progeny according to ‘traditional gender roles mixed with a little bit of gender bending’ goes against any claim to be ‘beyond’ gender.

    If you’re questioning gender/gender construction and identity, I highly recommend tackling Judith Butler and, for lighter reading, Kate Bornstein.

  6. You “refuse to define” what being “fluent in the language and practice of traditional gendered womanhood” means, but you want your wife to be “fluent in the language and practice of traditional gendered womanhood”?

    So…basically you want your wife to do what you want her to do.

    Yeah, that’s post-gender.

  7. I know Zuzu raised the atheist/Hebrew school analogy in the last thread on this subject. I thought about commenting there but the discussion had moved on…or so I thought. But you’ve raised it again, so I’m back.

    I’m the president of our shul and have a first-grader in Hebrew school. I don’t see any paradox at all in an atheist either identifying as a Jew or sending a child to Hebrew school. I’m reasonably sure that several families in our congregation would identify as atheist. They still want their kids to understand Jewish tradition and culture, and be able to make educated choices about their own practice and beliefs. Being an atheist and speaking Hebrew, or understanding the structure of the Shabbat service, are not mutually exclusive.

    Since you refuse to define the opaque and absurdly convoluted terms you use, I’m not sure what you mean by the various categories of gender you mention. I do know that I have a daughter who is growing up with parents who do not have traditional gender roles. Mom earns more than Dad, never wears makeup, and has a traditionally male job. She gets more than enough “traditional femininity” from the culture around us and is fully conversant in Disney Princess vocabulary, despite the fact that no Princess movies or books have appeared in our house. So I have no reason to need to consciously instruct her in how to be a Traditional Female. That’s not sending an atheist to Hebrew school; it’s sending her off to yeshiva in a Lubavitcher community.

  8. Here’s what “fluent in the language and practice of traditional gendered womanhood” means to me, as someone who’s rather proud of my command of the English language.

    Imagine someone said that they were “fluent in the language and practice of traditional Roman Catholicism”. That’s a very different statement from saying, “I am a practising traditional Roman Catholic worshipper”. It is the difference between knowing how to do something, and actually doing it. There are, no doubt, atheists who know very deeply the purpose, meanings, customs and language of, for example, the Eucharist.

    So, a person “fluent in the language and practice of traditional gendered womanhood” is someone who has the knowledge and understanding of what is involved in fulfilling a traditionally gendered woman’s role, but does not necessarily mean that it is someone who is willing to do so, or who agrees to do so.

    I’m not sure that this distinction was clear in either the first post, or the second, and that leads me to question whether the meaning I find in the words was the one intended.

    Now, that explains the “fluent in the language and practice of” part of the phrase. What “traditional gendered womanhood” is actually supposed to entail is a very different question, and is one that has been muddied considerably in the past half-century or so. The traditional role differs from culture to culture, even within a single nation (traditional women’s roles are not homogeneous across the UK, for example – in a nation the size of the USA, I have no idea how much variation there might be in traditional roles across the entire nation). The “traditional role” of the woman also differs on the basis of economic class and religious background.

    Take, for example, the role of Maria Von Trapp as depicted in her autobiography, “The Trapp Family Singers” (I’ve read the book, not just watched the musical!) She was not expected only to be subservient – she was expected to run a household as well, and be in charge of a retinue of staff (something for which she was totally unequipped, due to her original intention of joining the convent).

    While the “kinder, kirche, kuche” (children, church, kitchen) roles can be found in most elements of “traditional gendered womanhood” in one form or another, even the broad brushstrokes can differ hugely. In the modern world, some erosion of those roles is already accepted as “traditional”, and certainly our understanding of those roles has become heavily nuanced over the past 50 years or so, partly due to technology, partly due to feminism, partly due to economics – and those nuances vary from culture to culture.

  9. That’s an excellent interpretation, SnowdropExplodes, and if that is indeed what the OP meant then this is a fairly interesting line of discussion. I doubt it is — that’s fairly simple to explain, and I like your Catholic analogy, but since he refuses to explain I don’t know if he knows what it means.

    As for the Catholic example — well, I think most female people were raised woman to the same extent that people from extremely Catholic families were raised Catholic, so most female people are probably “fluent in the language and practice of traditional gendered womanhood” to a much greater extent than most atheists are “fluent in the language and practice of traditional Roman Catholicism”. That the OP describes this as something he actively wants in a wife suggests (to me at least) that he means something more than your interpretation. Of course, he refuses to define it, so we’ll never know.

  10. You seem to be saying that:

    1. You, yourself, are not fluent is what’s historically been considered “feminine behavior.”

    2. You want your children, regardless of their gender, to be comfortable with both historically male and historically female ways of being.

    3. You have decided the best way to raise these children to ignore the traditional gender split and instead engage in whatever behaviors they want is by…. actively modeling a traditional gender split?

    Why can’t *you* become conversant in traditional gendered womanhood? Or at least the parts of it you’d hope your children would take on, regardless of their gender? Presumably that would be things like being caring, emotionally mature and insightful, supportive and nurturing, taking pride in one’s appearance, and being able to do those tasks that keep a home running.

    That’s the whole point of working toward “post-gender.” That we each cultivate aspects in ourselves that are positive, ignoring societal constructs on which gender “owns” that trait. Only by working toward that goal would you actually demonstrate to your children the desirability, and attainability, of reaching the state you say you’d like them to achieve.

    Otherwise it’s just more of the same — and a lovely justification for offloading your own personal emotional work onto your wife.

  11. My mum used to be a stay-at-home mum for the first ten years of my life helping in my fathers office which resides on the ground floor of our house. But then she does most repairs (or hires someone) while my dad does everything in the garden. Is that what you had in mind, as you have still not answered my question HOW you want to incorporate both lifestyles?

    I would have preferred it if my mum had started getting back to her work earlier. Before she was always stressed out and not happy and everyone took her time for granted. That’s one reason I struggle to have a different life.

    Because for now we are not post-gender. The just published a study that here in Germany young mums LOSE money when they go back to work. A lot of people think you’re a selfish mum who doesn’t care about the child’s wellbeing. So once again, how do you want to incorporate the traditional lifestyle in a modern one when people are still forced to adopt the traditional one???

  12. Ugh. Worst. Posts. EVER. Like j said, is this really Feministe?

    I gotta tell ya, Mikey, you don’t sound terribly well-versed in gender theory, and you hardly come across as “way past gender”. I’m also offended, as someone whose gender identity is neither male nor female (something you seem to have neglected to mention in all your talk of expanded horizons), that you think women’s underwear that is fashioned to look like men’s underwear is sooooo beyond gender. Please.

    And if you aren’t going to define what you’re trying to talk about, please don’t bother writing at all–none of us will know exactly what you’re trying to communicate. Do you even know?

  13. Do you even know?

    My guess? No.

    That’s okay. A huge part of learning comes from saying stupid things that you think sort of make sense and having other people point out where they are nonsense. But that requires actually engaging in the debate, instead of refusing to define your terms because, as everyone knows, we are “way past gender.”

    …yeah, sure. That’s just lazy and intellectually meretricious.

  14. “I would like to note at the outset that I wrote in personal terms as an effective way to elicit commentary on the more general matters at play. I think that worked.”

    It’s rude to pretend you have some grand scheme to promote debate when people call you out on your bullshit. You want a debate? Pose a question. You want to save face? Say “Sorry”.

  15. Excellent use of “meretricious”, sparrow. And you’re right: this is misogyny as the new feminism. Been there. Done that. next.

  16. What kxo said. If you can’t be bothered to define the terms at the heart of your ‘argument’, what’s the point in writing the post? And what’s the point in writing a clarification/response that barely clarifies or responds to the comments made (apart from quoting other people as a cover for your own lack of focus)?

    You want a ‘wife’ who’s ‘fluent in the language’ of traditional gender roles. I think that SnowdropExplodes is being extremely generous to you in suggesting that this means you just want to marry someone with an understanding of the constraints and expectations of the patriarchy, not necessarily someone who is willing to embody them (presumably by carrying your babies and bringing you sandwiches). May I ask what might happen if you get that Isaac Hayes moment with someone who doesn’t want children? Would you choose not to marry that person for not speaking ‘the language of traditional womanhood’? Just writing that phrase feels so icky, it could be a Chris de Burgh lyric.

    You say that you intended to define the phrase in your original post but ‘accidentally clicked ‘publish’’. That indicates that you know what you meant by it. Why not be brave and let us know what that is? What is contained within that ‘cluster of behaviors, practices, words’? (Hang on, there are words that only women use? I’m getting even more confused!)

    Come join us in the comments Mikey, the water’s lovely!

  17. Wow. Just . . . wow.

    You know, I’m a woman, and I wear PANTS, like, all the time. And I buy them in the women’s department. We, as a society, are SO past gender. How could I have missed it?

  18. It is not anywhere near April 1st, but I am at a loss to think of any other explanation for these posts.

  19. Uhm. What?

    The nicest interpretation I have of these posts is that you are a guy who wants to marry Joan Cleaver and that you’re trying to justify it through several strange twists of logic and vocabulary so that you’re not just a misogynist who wants a nice little wifey, you’re really challenging….something…..

    (The less nice interpretations involve speculation on the speicies of your parentage and the amoung of braincells you have remaining after some traumatic event.)

  20. This is the best gender theory parody I’ve read in quite some time. It’s parody, right?

    Right?

  21. Post-gender society becaue of somehting American Apparel used as a tagline? What? Really?

    If you where arguing we lived in a society where gender was becoming more fluid and less restrictuve, I could see where you were coming from. But we’re not ‘post-gender’ means, because we still have gender. Really, we do. Unless you and I are living in completely different worlds.

    And if we were in a post-gender world, why the hell would you kids need to learn how to behave in gendered ways?

    I think I understand from your posts that you see all women as “fluent in the language and practice of traditional gendered womanhood” , so basically, you want to marry a woman, yes? You do know it’s ok just to say you’re straight?

    If all women aren’t “fluent”, then how do you distinguish between those that are and those that aren’t?

    And what about a woman from another culture who wasn’t necessarily ‘fluent’ in the same traditional gender role?

    And what about same-sex two parent families, and single parent families? We do exist, you know.

    I could rant more but I can feel my mind starting to implode.

  22. The analogy comparing “traditional” and “modern” gender roles to “tradtional” Jewish culture and atheism doesn’t really hold any water at all. Sending your kid to Hebrew school doesn’t hurt other people.

    The question you ought to ask yourself is this: will you also be raising your children to be fluent in “traditional” roles based on their race and/or their sexual orientation in order to expand their social options?

  23. Seeing as you cited me: My own conclusion was that I would not attempt to train traditionalist values, because society would do a “good” (odd use of the word since I think it’s bad) job all on its own.

    Even in comparatively liberal Massachusetts; even in a comparatively liberal PART of Massachusetts; and even going to a comparatively liberal school within that part, and having fairly liberal friends… it’s seeping in.

    It’s like a nasty, child-killing virus.

    How does my daughter find our about Dora? Not on my tv (she’s never watched it in our house.) Why does she occasionally claim to want to “marry a prince someday, like Cinderella?” Not from me or my wife. How did she learn the song “someday my prince will come” (blech) at ALL? Not in my house.

    No, all that is from a whopping 4 hours of nursery school, each day. And that’s a LIBERAL nursery school, where children are–literally–forbidden from wearing t shirts or bringing possessions with commercial images on them.

    I shudder to think of what happens next year when she starts “real” school.

    Again: it’s like a virus. A bad one.

    So, I don’t think you have to worry about modeling traditional gender values. Your kids will learn them, like it or not.

    But in a vague defense of the OP: until you’ve experienced it a bit by having children, for many men the question “can I go too overboard on the feminism angle w/r/t my kids?” seems reasonable. I don’t think it’s such an obnoxious question, seeing as he doesn’t know the answer, right?.

    For some folks, it’s only after you actually have kids that you begin to realize what a hellish country it is, and that the “too much feminism for my kids” worry is moot.

    Though I agree it’s an odd question for Feministe.

  24. This is the best gender theory parody I’ve read in quite some time. It’s parody, right?

    Right?

    God, I hope so.

    Instead I will say more modestly that I believe there is a cluster of behaviors, practices, words that we – you, me, us – will associate with being a “traditional woman” (or man).

    You, me, us is not some sort of monolith. Your readers are far more diverse than you imagine if you think everyone’s got the exact same understanding of what it means to be a traditional man or woman.

  25. Sometimes, in my less, um, ethical moments, I think that I would like to have a traditional wife. I’d like to have someone to clean up after me, cook my meals, raise my children (so that I could just pop in every once in a while and be the “fun” parent but someone else would have to deal with the sick kids), etc.

    As my girlfriend says, “Um, sweetheart, that is the least feminist thing ever.”

    And it’s true. It would be really nice to have someone else take over the hard, un-fun parts of life. But the person who would do that is — you guesed it — also a person, who deserves better.

    So I try not to be selfish.

    You might look into it.

  26. RE: the atheist/ Catholic comparison:

    Do you seriously think that any woman you are likely to marry doesn’t know how to shave her body hair/ smear lip-colored gook on her lips/ act deferential/ care about others above herself/ cultivate an aesthetically pleasing hairstyle/ giggle/ cook/ clean/ act like you are god’s gift to the universe/ pretend there is nothing tedious about raising children/ be a sex object/ twitter/ act unthreatening/ act dumb/ be quiet/ etc etc etc?

    I think you probably mean well, but you are horrendously uninformed about gender issues. Before you post again (if you ever do), please consider, at a minimum, (1) reading through the Feministe archives; (2) actually reading the comments on your posts. To reiterate what some others have said, the assumption that you are simply woefully ignorant is a generous one. Quite frankly, the more straightforward explanation would be that you want a “traditional” woman and you are totally grasping at straws in your attempt to justify it. I mean, American Apparel boxer briefs= post gender? Give me a fucking break.

  27. Re: what Karolena just said, I think we can consult bell hooks on this too, who has had a LOT to say on this subject. I just came across some of her words this morning while reading Julia Serano’s book:

    Living as we did–on the edge–we developed a particular way of seeing reality. We looked both from the outside in and from the inside out. We focused our attention on the center as well as on the margin. We understood both.

    bell hooks (in Feminist Theory: From Margin to Center) is writing about being a person of color embedded in white America and what it means about how you’re forced to understand both sides — the center and the margin — as a matter of survival. Plenty of people have written about this in relation to gender and sexuality too. I mean, do you think queers don’t understand heterosexual expectations and “heterosexual” culture? Or that gender-different folks don’t understand how “traditional gender” is supposed to be practiced and what’s acceptable and what’s not? Oh believe me, we do. We really do, because we need to, and in situations where we misstep, we learn the lessons the HARD WAY. Our bodies and our lives have this collision between the margin and center written all over them. This is true of every marginalized, oppressed group — women in general, too.

    Julia Serano goes on, in Whipping Girl:

    It is safe to say that, despite the fact that we make up more than half of the population, women are marginalized in our male-centered society. This can be seen not only in women’s underrepresentation in political, economic, and media positions of power, but in the way that virtually anything associated with femaleness or femininity is relegated to a separate category. In the media, stories produced by men, and that feature male protagonists, are seen as universal, while those created by women and feature female protagonists are often relegated to their own genre (women’s literature, chick flicks, etc.) When talking about sports, it’s a given that one is referring to male leagues unless the sport name is preceded by the word “women’s.” Until very recently, most medical research that examined general health concerns had been conducted on men, and still today women’s specific health issues are typically removed from general medicine and placed in their own category, such as ob-gyn or women’s reproductive health.

    Because our society centers on maleness, most men are able to get by in life without ever understanding or appreciating women’s experiences or perspectives. In contrast, women need to be able to appreciate both female and male perspectives in order to successfully navigate society. In fact, in many ways, women in our culture are even encouraged to understand aspects of maleness better in order to fulfill the role they are often expected to play as family caregiver for male partners and children. One example of this is how women’s magazines feature articles with titles like “The Sex He Craves” which offer advice about what men supposedly want, while most magazines geared towards men are entirely devoid of any information designed to shed light on women’s perspectives or desires.

    This is some fairly basic stuff, about margins and center and who gets the luxury to “not know about the other side of things,” that it would be good to know about before guest blogging at a feminist blog.

    And hopefully that gives a little more perspective for your response:

    1 modern pop culture and other people – friends, family, etc – will continue inundate people with traditional conceptions of gender […] My response to 1 is: perhaps.

    Perhaps, huh? Is that all you’ve got? How would you even know, sitting and pondering like an armchair philosopher? Take it from people who have been there, since you asked the question and asked for some dialogue.

    Some other questions to the original post… how does this idea, this suggested way of raising kids, affect single parents? Or gay parents? Do all families need to encompass “Traditional Woman and Man” as well as “Modern Woman and Man” in order to teach kids correctly? What about kids who strongly reject one of those roles? What if you, or your wife, did not fit one of those roles… would it really be good for a kid if you tried to change your gender on their behalf? (Believe me, this does happen all the time, subconsciously or otherwise, and has created more family problems than you might think.) Finally, doesn’t it always take more than just two people to raise a child, canny political metaphors about villages notwithstanding?

  28. All this obfuscation and empty meaningless verbiage in both of Mikey’s posts leads me to the conclusion that Mikey is trying to get feminists to OK his desire for traditional gender roles in his future family, fears that he will get his ass handed to him if he just flat-out asks if it’s wrong to want a “traditional nuclear family” and all the sexism and misogyny it contains, and so must dress up the question in strange and hollow language to somehow trick the readers into OKing this desire.

    Creepy. If only I could attach a LOLCats FAIL pic to this comment.

  29. This will be my first response in the comments. I hope it is one of many. I thank everyone for their comments. I fear I must dispel any growing belief or hope that I wrote what I wrote out of satire or parody. I wrote it because I am seriously, deeply, honestly, mulling about in these issues within the context of my commitment to feminism and thought here was a perfect place to explore them.

    To respond to Brooklynite’s comment 1, I typed “traditional woman, traditional man, modern woman, modern man” as what I continue to believe is a useful shorthand, and not as robust, bounded categories. In brief, I employed the word “modern” to denote an embrace of a thick skepticism about gender – as a tool for the enforcement of patriarchy, and as a social construction. Thus modern people would more inclined to reject traditional gender norms and/or employ gender vocabulary for themselves when and where they see fit.

    So I don’t see there being a bright line between “modern man and modern woman,” except insofaras I might employ the terms ‘man’ and ‘woman’ with reference to biology, and I would therefore hope my child would be equipped to construct their own unique, authentic gender identity from all of life’s possibilities.

  30. In response to various comments, including comment 5, I did not select the headline “way-past-gender society” to suggest that American life is post-gender, or even that American life is way-past-gender. As I noted, I believe there is a subset of people – many of whom who read this blog – who might be said to be “past gender” in the sense that they reject the idea that traditional gender norms are natural, and that they reject the idea that traditional gender norms might be universally beneficial to all individuals. I wrote about raising children in that group of people, wondering if some fluency in the language and practice of traditional gendered life might still have some use. In a subsequent comment, I will type about that terminology I refused to define.

  31. Mikey, you don’t have to hope–you’re the one in control of whether you comment or not. And given that your first response to this post (now 35 comments deep, with the original post in the 70s) only addresses one comment, I have to say, this response feels a little inadequate.

    I’d still like to give you the benefit of the doubt rather than assuming (like some others here) that you’re a big ol’ misogynist who wants discuss more nuanced perspectives on gender while keeping a lady barefoot in the kitchen, but without context it’s a little hard. Clicking your name only gets me a “not found,” and the link to your blog (from the original guest-blogger post) leads me to a grand total of one post about you leaving the internet.

    So without the context of any of your previous writing, and without more in-depth responses from you to the comments here and on the original thread, I hope you can understand why so many of us are having such a negative reaction to your words.

  32. I would like to point to SnowDropExplodes’ first comment to this post – comment 12. As many of the subsequent commenters wrote, it is the most generous interpretation of my words. It is the correct one.

    Like Zuzu’s analogy about atheist parents sending their children to Hebrew School, so that they may be fluent in both cultural traditions and their rejection, (and I acknowledge that “Hebrew School” is not necessarily “Judaism School”) SnowDropExplodes’ analogy is about being fluent in what we – you, me, us – reject. This is what I meant, though I realize I have not earned the right to a generous reading from my audience just yet, and so you had every right to be skeptical. But “fluency” was the key term in my first post, not that I wanted “the practice of traditional womanhood” but “fluency in the practice.”

    Perhaps now is the time to type that I certainly do not mean that I want to control my future partner, or that I want to talk the talk while walking a patriarchal walk. What I hoped to express was that I thought there was some utility in a partner “having fluency” for raising children. I did not mean that to imply that I wanted to subjugate my partner into the kitchen.

  33. I like very much Occhiblu’s comment, comment number 14. In it, Occhiblu asks why can’t I be fluent in the practice of traditional womanhood? That is, after all, part of what being past gender means. I am totally into this idea, and concede that my having not thought of that before betrays some laziness on my part.

    As for Occhiblu’s summary of my argument, I accept the first two points. Occhiblu wrote:

    1. You, yourself, are not fluent is what’s historically been considered “feminine behavior.”
    2. You want your children, regardless of their gender, to be comfortable with both historically male and historically female ways of being.

    In response to number 1, I must concede that I have doubt as to my fluency in “feminine behavior.” Perhaps that sounds ridiculous, but that was an operational belief of my first post.

    As to Occhiblu’s summary of my conclusion, which is:

    3. You have decided the best way to raise these children to ignore the traditional gender split and instead engage in whatever behaviors they want is by…. actively modeling a traditional gender split?

    I did not mean “actively modeling” a traditional gender split. I did mean “understanding” traditional behaviors associated with traditional concepts of gender, so that they could be explained, taught, and understood in their proper, modern context.

  34. …there is a subset of people – many of whom who read this blog – who might be said to be “past gender” in the sense that they reject the idea that traditional gender norms are natural, and that they reject the idea that traditional gender norms might be universally beneficial to all individuals.

    …yes. But you don’t appear to be one of them.

    I wrote about raising children in that group of people, wondering if some fluency in the language and practice of traditional gendered life might still have some use…

    And we’re all pointing out to you that no matter what group of people you’re in, you’re still going to know how to do traditional gender even if you don’t do it. Either you don’t understand this, or you’re refusing to engage with it. Any woman you marry is going to know how to do traditional femininity. The fact that you consider “a woman who is fluent in the language and practice of traditional femininity” as a subset of all female people indicates that you mean something more than that — you mean someone who’s going to do traditional gender, and that’s not feminism.

    I don’t say this to be harsh, Mikey. The fact that you think it’s a good thing to be “past gender” is a definite step in the right direction. But you need to examine your assumptions and the way you think about the world, and women, because it is heavily influenced by the misogynist society we all inhabit. Calling you a misogynist — which is, I think, accurate — is not shorthand for “I hate you and think you’re a bad person.” I too am a misogynist, and a racist, and a lot of other unpleasant words. The difference is that, while we have both internalized a lot of these messages, I’m (slightly) farther along in the process of realizing that I’ve done it.

  35. I agree with mk- I’d like to have some idea of what you normally write about. Because at the moment I’m guessing this is your first satb at gender issues.

  36. If that’s the case, Mikey, I have to ask, like Karolena at 31–what makes you think virtually every woman currently alive isn’t thus “fluent in the practice of traditional womanhood”? Whether or not our parents instill or enforce “traditional gender roles” in us from infancy or model these roles around the house, we are, by and large, well-schooled in “traditional womanhood” at every turn–at school, on the street, at social events, and in our reading.

    Finally, I just want to quote evil fizz at 29:

    You, me, us is not some sort of monolith. Your readers are far more diverse than you imagine if you think everyone’s got the exact same understanding of what it means to be a traditional man or woman.

  37. My bad for using ‘post gender’ when you actually said ‘past gender’. Although I’m still not convinced you’ve explained properly what you meant by that.

    I agree with mk- I’d like to have some idea of what you normally write about. Because at the moment I’m guessing this is your first stab at gender issues.

  38. As a happy member of a family rooted in the love of a same-sex union, I am saddened if the language of my previous comments was not inclusive. I believe my concerns and ideas are inclusive, and I meant them to be.

    So what the hell is “fluency in the language and practice of traditional gendered womanhood?”

    For starters, I must insist that I did not mean it as anything like “in practice, Stepford-Wife-ism.” Nor was I thinking about submission or passivity as the “language and practice.” I understand that to many people, there is absolutely no redeeming quality or trait, or behavior or practice, of traditional gender norms that are worthy of being understood and taught to children.

    I did mean “fluency” in terms of “understanding of” and “ability to.” I presumed that my female partner, who will have lived in patriarchal America and rejected these norms, would have a better understanding of both of this language and practice and its rejection, than I would. (Occhiblu’s comment 14 tells me I could understand it just as well, and I agree.) And I believed that her understanding of this language and practice is a useful parenting tool.

    So if not passivity and submission, then what is this language and practice worth preserving, teaching? Traditional beauty norms are a paradigmatic example. So, too, is contemporary courtship. And I am sure there are other instances that escape me if only because I have been in the darkness for so long.

  39. My previous blog was predominantly about domestic and international politics. The theme at the top used to read “Tougher on Terrorism,” and I originally intended it to have a national security focus, but over time it became a generalist Democratic-leaning political blog. While I have done some writing as to reproductive rights and workplace equality, it is true that as to gender these have been my first written words.

  40. Mikey.

    You don’t get it.

    ANY FEMALE RAISED IN AMERICA (or, Hell, most other countries…) IS GOING TO BE “FLUENT IN THE LANGUAGE AND PRACTICE OF TRADITIONAL GENDERED WOMANHOOD.”

    So if what you want in the person with whom you are going to raise your prospective children is “fluency in the language and practice of traditional gendered womanhood” you should marry a female person.

    If that’s what you mean, then your posts are just sort of DUH. If that’s not what you mean, explain.

  41. Why are traditional beauty norms worth preserving? And, not to add to the chorus demanding that you define your terms, but you really have to be more specific with “traditional beauty norms,” since they’ve changed so much historically and from culture to culture.

    Just as one example, the beauty standard for many heterosexual women is very different from the one for many homosexual women. Thus, many of us who now identify as queer actually found the language and practice of “traditional beauty norms” quite damaging in our youth.

    Same question with “contemporary courtship.” (And, forgive me, but I find “contemporary” confusing here, since it’s usually used as an antonym to “historical” or “traditional.”) Are we talking chivalry? Unions defined by dowries? Or the oft-cited “hookup culture”?

  42. mk — Obviously I’m not Mikey, but I thought your question about traditional beauty norms was interesting, so I’m going to answer it too.

    Beauty is arbitrary. We see it where we have been trained to see it. I think high heels and makeup look good because that’s the message I’ve internalized. But even if I thought that body hair and, I don’t know, temporary tattoos of butterflies were what defined beauty, it would still be entirely arbitrary. I don’t think we need to train ourselves not to see beauty where we’ve been trained to see it, we just have to be aware that the reason we think it’s beautiful is because we’ve been trained to see it that way. There’s no objective truth to our beauty standard, so I don’t think we ought to cling desperately to thin (or plump), blonde (or brunette), shaved (or hairy), but there’s no objective truth to some other beauty standard either, so I don’t see any particular reason to tear down what we have.

  43. In response to comment 33:

    Reading all of the comments, and especially your own, I know i must work to develop a stronger sensitivity to people at the margins.

    Part of that is knowing that a community does raise its children, with the family at the core. That community does teach its children norms. My new answer to that question of whether modern culture will do more than enough inculcating of traditional gender norms is not “perhaps” but “yes.”

  44. I’m not necessarily suggesting tearing down the beauty standard (whatever it may be) but I do think it’s important to recognize how damaging it can be to children who don’t see themselves fitting that standard. I think it’s especially harmful for queer and gender-variant kids. A more healthy beauty standard would be one that acknowledges a diversity of body shapes, sizes, colors, and decisions as valid and beautiful.

  45. Definitely, mk. I think the message in child-rearing needs to be that while beauty is important, other things (like health and happiness) are far more important, and that a lot of different things are beautiful.

  46. A more healthy beauty standard would be one that acknowledges a diversity of body shapes, sizes, colors, and decisions as valid and beautiful.

    Actually, that does sound like tearing down the beauty standard. Which I personally approve of. I say we should destroy the beauty standard.

    there’s no objective truth to some other beauty standard either, so I don’t see any particular reason to tear down what we have

    I approve of tearing down the beauty standard because it’s used to restrict women and keep them anxious, unhappy, and distracted. If the beauty standard–any beauty standard, traditional or otherwise–was not used to the detriment of women, then it wouldn’t be a cause for concern and wouldn’t need to be torn down. (Stating the obvious here, natch.) They may not be objective or universal, but they are harmful in their current state.

  47. willa, I don’t think we can tear down the beauty standard. We can tear down this beauty standard and/or develop a new one — I’m more in favor of organic change than radical restructuring, possibly because I have read too much Burke — but we are always going to define something as beautiful. The trick is to remember that simply because we define it as beautiful doesn’t mean that it has some kind of intrinsic superiority. It just means “I like looking at it,” and as long as we remember that people are not required ot satisfy us by looking a way we like we’re okay.

  48. Lesbia’s Sparrow, I think that there is possibly a slight disconnect between what you mean by Beauty Standard and what I mean by Beauty Standard. When I say “beauty standard,” I’m referring to the Beauty Myth beauty standard, in which it’s used to keep women jumping through impossible hoops, trying to win a game they will never win. In my mind, your version of the beauty standard is one without the overwhelming power to hurt women,and which is fluid and personal and idiosyncratic. I like that standard, but it’s not the one I’m talking about when I talk about the beauty standard.

    I do like your take on it, though, and wish very much that that version takes place in the world (or, rather, white America, not knowing enough of other culture’s beauty standards to want to tear them down and replace them).

    I think I’m getting pretty off-topic on this thread, though. Being quiet, now.

  49. But off-topic is fun! I haven’t read The Beauty Myth, though it’s on my list (my GF took her copy home for the summer instead of lending it to me, because she wants to re-read it doesn’t really love me) but from my understanding it’s about how forcing people to conform to a beauty standard is bad, with which I totally agree.

  50. I hate to be this mean, but… why on earth was Mikey asked to post here?

    I honestly don’t think he knows what he is talking about. I read his comments and I am even less clear as to what he is talking about.

    And again: all women know how we are supposed to act as a gendered woman. I guess what Mikey wants is a gendered woman who does everything she’s supposed to do as a gendered woman? That is literally all I can comprehend of what he says. And if he wants that kind of girl…again, why is he here?

  51. Damned if I can figure that out, either…Oy. Too much thinking.

    But one thing’s for sure. Mikey’s not yet ready to dive into parenthood AT ALL. Give the man credit for considering various aspects now, but frankly, when you’re actually RAISING kids, you do NOT have the luxury of time.

    You’re too damned busy DOING IT ALREADY… and you quickly get over your pre-child, smug little notions of how others are fucking it up. It’s not your “community” or “village”; ultimately it is up to YOU to raise your child.

    Says the mom whose autistic daughter just stopped stacking toys to give me a huge hug and tell me she loves me…

    Mikey, when you get to that stage, just relax.

  52. Mikey, I am glad that I cottoned on to your intended meaning of “fluent in the language and practice”, but I am still at a loss as to your meaning of “traditional gendered womanhood”, and it seems that I am not the only one.

    It has been suggested, and you’ve accepted, that maybe you yourself could be, or could become, “fluent”. However, at the moment I think a big question is, “fluent in what, exactly?”

    It is not sufficient for a man, wishing to raise a bilingual child, to say, “I would like my wife to be fluent in the language and speaking of French”, if that man does not actually know what the language of French actually is – how would he know that she were fluent in French? She could speak any of the Romance languages and he would be none the wiser.

    In this case, as I tried to explain, it is more like seeking a wife who speaks a specific dialect of French, because there are so many different “versions” of “traditional womanhood” out there.

    As many others have said, it is redundant to have that example or speaker in the home if the young children are going to be exposed daily to society’s patriarchal definition of gendered roles (it is hard to describe it as traditional, because as I pointed out earlier, “traditional” roles have shifted in just 50 years). I believe that there are sufficient media sources these days to present other options, that children need not be left totally bereft of “alternative” options as they grow up, but the best way is to have an example at home – parents who do not have to fulfil the traditional roles, do not even need to know them except inasmuch as they can explain why they choose to be different from everyone else’s mummy and daddy. They also need parents who are going to be able to affirm their choices if those children decide not to accept the patriarchal gender-boundaries. They don’t need parents who will talk to them in patriarchese.

    That is the problem a lot of people are having with your comments, and why they perceive some ulterior motive in your writing (i.e. a desire to be given the green light to have your own little woman, “‘er indoors”).

  53. The “traditional beauty standard” is not only heteronormative, it is also racist, classist and above all misogynist – it is all about hating women’s bodies when we’re not beautiful.
    A few women (usually altered by the surgeon’s knife, strict exercise/diet regimens, expensive beauty treatments or photoshop) are considered beautiful but let’s face it, if we’re old or fat or hairy or skinny in the wrong places or whatever, we’re un-beautiful and, if women’s beauty is exalted supreme, worthless.
    I realize that beauty standards won’t go away, but at any rate, it’s best to make them more inclusive and pretty far down the list on importance when it comes to evaluating a person’s worth.

  54. I hate to be this mean, but… why on earth was Mikey asked to post here?

    I honestly don’t think he knows what he is talking about. I read his comments and I am even less clear as to what he is talking about.

    Mikey, given that this response seems to encapsulate the general feeling towards your posts, I’m going make two suggestions: shorter words and simpler sentences. You’ve admitted you haven’t written much on gender before. It’s a topic different from many others in that it requires extremely precise wording, often at the expense of eloquence. When talking gender, sentences written with an eye to style over structure more often than not connote entirely wrong ideas to people who actually know the jargon of the genre. Keep it simple and stop trying to sound educated, b/c it’s painfully clear that you’re floundering out of your depth. State what you mean plainly. I waited several hours to attempt writing this comment precisely b/c your pretty-sounding non-responses were pissing me off. I am genuinely trying to stay even-keeled here, b/c I know it’s a rough topic with a severe learning curve. Please take this as one of your lumps and not as malicious.

  55. In response to comment 33:

    Reading all of the comments, and especially your own, I know i must work to develop a stronger sensitivity to people at the margins.

    MIKEY: YOU ARE NOT LISTENING.

    It’s not about your personal “sensitivity.” It’s about women being “at the margins” and ALL OF US being “fluent in the language of traditional womanhood” BY NECESSITY. Again, as many of us have said, repeatedly, we are all familiar with the beauty standard and with traditional courtship. We all know how to do it.

    Are you saying you want your wife to be traditionally beautiful (i.e. modify her body in numerous ways) and to enjoy a traditional courtship (i.e. be demure, passive, and nonthreatening)? Or just “know how to”? Which is it?

  56. My new answer to that question of whether modern culture will do more than enough inculcating of traditional gender norms is not “perhaps” but “yes.”

    I’m glad you’ve finally made it to this point, but the fact that it took you so long indicates that you probably still have not spent even a few minutes perusing the Feministe archives. Given that the responses to your posts have been overwhelmingly negative, this disheartens me. Anyway, at the very least, you should be aware that “traditional womanhood” is something many feminists spend a lot of time trying to overcome and to dismantle.

  57. I don’t want to start an endless iteration of definition and clarification, but to expand on SnowdropExplodes’s definition of “fluent in the language and practice of traditional gendered womanhood,” are you looking for someone who knows all the little details about feminine drag (by which I mean both appearance and behavioral presentation), or someone who can deconstruct and explain such behavior to small people?

    The former is of more practical use in assisting children with conformity to gender norms; the latter is more beneficial to navigating the emotional consequences of living in a world that has gender norms.

    The difference is somewhat related to whether you, as a person presumably raised to perform a masculine gender, can really be “fluent” in another gender. You can learn a lot about how women outwardly express traditional and modern gender norms (whatever those mean), but it will be difficult for you to truly understand how people who identify as female experience the pressures to perform certain gender traits.

    But really, you can still be a good parent without innately understanding your child–don’t worry about that so much as worry about the ways your own gender performance and expectations of others prescribe the limits of your child’s self-expression. Same with race, class, etc. Basically, examine your privilege and try to at least acknowledge it, if not eliminate it.

  58. Keep it simple and stop trying to sound educated, b/c it’s painfully clear that you’re floundering out of your depth. State what you mean plainly.

    Mikey, I’m sure you’re a nice person. But for God’s sake, stop trying to be all verbose and intellectual on us — it’s coming across as pompous and unengaged.

  59. One of the most helpful things that anyone has ever told me about writing is to keep it simple even when you’re talking about complex ideas. The response to your original post might have been very different if you had said:
    I think about having kids sometimes, and being a nice feminist-y kinda guy, I worry about raising kids in a really gendered world. I worry that if I choose not to raise my children in the normal gendered way, they’ll have a hard time. I think a possible solution to this problem would be to make sure that my partner and I are able to do traditionally gendered things with our kids if they want to. Like if I have a daughter who wants to be a pretty pretty princess, her mother can braid her hair and paint her toe nails (or whatever it is pretty pretty princesses do – I’m the product of a feminist mother and have no idea).

    Forgive me if I’ve misinterpreted your words, but this is what I’ve taken from them.

    Now, if you had said something like that, and than said:
    Seeing as I have the wonderful opportunity to post my thoughts and concerns about feminist parenting on a widely-read feminist blog with lots and lots of active commenters, I’ll ask if anyone has thoughts or experiences they want to share.
    And you might have discovered that amongst the readers there are feminist parents, there are people who were raised by feminist parents, there are commenters who are childcare providers or who otherwise spend lots of time around kids in non-parental roles, and so on.

    Instead there have been many many posts trying to figure out what you were trying to say, and not as many talking about the challenges (and joys) of trying to raise happy, healthy children in a really sexist world.

    Writing about gender can be really hard because so much of the way we talk about gender reinforces it at the same time. Which is why feminists have developed a pretty specialized language for talking about it. It’s confusing, but acquainting yourself with some of the terminology and ideas makes it easy to avoid clunkers like “fluent in the language of traditional womanhood.”

  60. But debbie, don’t you get it? Then we wouldn’t know how smart he is.

    (Now we do.)

  61. Dunno that I’d go that far. He’s not stupid, just uneducated about gender and made the mistake of going public about it on a very gender-conscious blog.

  62. Sigh. I still think this was a perfect place to write with doubt about what I was recently thinking about.

  63. No, Mikey. No, it wasn’t. It is not our job to teach you about gender, but we’re trying anyway, and you’re not listening. I hope you’re reading the comments and trying to understand what we’re talking about and why we’re annoyed, but since you refuse to address the major issues I guess we’ll never know.

  64. I’m baffled….I want to ask all the people who wrote repeatedly that
    ANY FEMALE RAISED IN AMERICA (or, Hell, most other countries…) IS GOING TO BE “FLUENT IN THE LANGUAGE AND PRACTICE OF TRADITIONAL GENDERED WOMANHOOD.”

    and explained that this “being fluent” means:

    “know how to shave her body hair/ smear lip-colored gook on her lips/ act deferential/ care about others above herself/ cultivate an aesthetically pleasing hairstyle/ giggle/ cook/ clean/ act like you are god’s gift to the universe/ pretend there is nothing tedious about raising children/ be a sex object/ twitter/ act unthreatening/ act dumb/ be quiet/ etc etc etc”

    I look pretty mainstream (i.e not butch or whatever), am heterosexual and even married. Still, the only thing I ever did out of this extensive list is to shave my legs, and I don’t do it very often. Of course there isn’t anything to know, and nobody ever showed me how to do it. It’s just the same as shaving your face if you are a man.

    But what are all these other rhings in this list? No, I didn’t ever try to put on make up except as a kid in 7-th grade, my care for my hair amounts to brushing it every morning and getting a haircut twice a year, and I learned how to cook and clean when I left my parent’s house, but frankly my husband does it *slightly* (;-)) better and more often than me. And no, I have never felt a need or desire or even thought that I should learn to giggle, act differential, be a sex object, twitter, act unthreatening (:-/), act dumb, be quiet etc. I did however meet with other, more subtle expressions of inequality. I saw many women around me doing all those things but it certanly wasn’t EVERY woman. Is my experience deviant? Did you all really experience these things? Do you expect your daugthers will too?

  65. Mikey, as Debbie said, you would have received a much more valuable (to you) response if you’d committed yourself more, or asked more concrete questions. By circumlocuting and hedging, you’ve put us all in the position of trying to suss out where you’re at and what you’re struggling with.

    If you still don’t understand why that’s been so frustrating — above and beyond the content of what you have seemed to be saying — then no, this isn’t the perfect place for you.

  66. Mikey, in all honesty, I still don’t know what the hell you were thinking about doubtfully. I know you want to get married and have kids and are somehow conflicted about gender roles in marriage and parenting. Beyond that you’ve been impossible to parse. I don’t know that it’s particularly fair for you to use your guest blogger privilege as a platform for your own personal dilemmas. People who post on the internets are generally very happy to give you their opinions and advice, but you haven’t been giving much back.

  67. Nausicaa Says:
    June 6th, 2007 at 10:13 am

    I look pretty mainstream (i.e not butch or whatever), am heterosexual and even married. Still, the only thing I ever did out of this extensive list is to shave my legs, and I don’t do it very often. Of course there isn’t anything to know, and nobody ever showed me how to do it. It’s just the same as shaving your face if you are a man.

    Oh wow, another nausicaa posting! And strangely, saying almost exactly what I would have posted (except for that I have recently started wearing lipstick in addition to shaving my legs occasionally.)

    But I do have a tendency to be rather forceful and brusque when I post, so you might want to consider whether you want people to think we’re the same. (I don’t really care!)

    Are you the Greek Nausicaa or the Miyazaki Nausicaa?

  68. Hello, another nausicaa 🙂 I didn’t notice you comment here too.

    -Are you the Greek Nausicaa or the Miyazaki Nausicaa?

    Both were an inspiration, but actually I just think this name sounds cool 🙂

  69. nausicaa at 73:

    “know how to shave her body hair/ smear lip-colored gook on her lips/ act deferential/ care about others above herself/ cultivate an aesthetically pleasing hairstyle/ giggle/ cook/ clean/ act like you are god’s gift to the universe/ pretend there is nothing tedious about raising children/ be a sex object/ twitter/ act unthreatening/ act dumb/ be quiet/ etc etc etc”

    […] Did you all really experience these things?

    The issue isn’t whether someone actively sat us down and instructed us in any of these practices. (Although I’m sure many many women did, in fact, experience just such an “education” in childhood. My mom definitely gave me pointers on how to shave my legs, f’rinstance.) The point is that we’re being informed by mainstream media and the world around us, and even by just observing we quickly become very well aware of the many confusing facets of “traditional woman,” some of which you just quoted. Even if no one taught us how to apply lipstick, images of women wearing it were everywhere. Even if we never cooked anything, we consistently saw women in service industry jobs on television and in our real lives. And on and on and on.

    Of course there isn’t anything to know, and nobody ever showed me how to do it. It’s just the same as shaving your face if you are a man.

    There are, in fact, things to know, like how to keep your skin from drying out, which direction to shave in, and so on. And while I’m sure a lot of girls and women find this out the hard way, many of us were at least given the basics by our mothers or other women in our lives. And plenty of boys learn how to shave their faces rather than just figuring it out. Because, again, there are a lot of things to know, and if you have a good male figure in your life, he lets you in on the secrets rather than letting you cut yourself all to hell.

    Finally, I just wanted to point out something from your comment:

    I look pretty mainstream (i.e not butch or whatever), am heterosexual and even married. Still, the only thing I ever did out of this extensive list is to shave my legs, and I don’t do it very often.

    I bristle a little at “butch or whatever” being in opposition to “mainstream,” but beyond that, I don’t really understand why you couched your statement in this disclaimer. Even most of us who now look pretty “butch or whatever” were well-schooled in “traditional womanhood” growing up, and not wearing lipstick or shaving our legs doesn’t mean we’ve necessarily escaped internalizing What A Woman Is.

    I think the point is that no matter how we identify or express our gender once we’ve grown up, the overwhelming majority of us became fluent in “traditional womanhood” at a very early age. Even little boys become quickly fluent, because they’re so often taught that girlhood/womanhood must be in strict opposition to boyhood/manhood, and stifled or punished if they don’t act and look accordingly.

  70. I think the point is that no matter how we identify or express our gender once we’ve grown up, the overwhelming majority of us became fluent in “traditional womanhood” at a very early age.

    This is little n-nausicaa here. I do think there’s a difference between learning about gendered expectations, and actually learning how to perform those expectations. There’s a big difference. I know all about how women are supposed to wear makeup & be fashionable, but I’m really not good at doing it myself. I feel extremely unfluent in traditional womanhood when I go out with the girls and my unmanicured toes peek out from my Clarks! Even if I try, I can’t pull it off.

    So to me, when someone says he wants a wife “fluent in traditional womanhood,” what that means is that he wants a high-maintainance girly girl. A femme, if you will. Luckily for me and big-N Nausicaa, there are many guys who greatly appreciate us low-maintainence types.

  71. I am not educated in gender theory, so if I say anything odd or wrong please tell me.

    As a lesbian who preforms her gender in a feminine way, I don’t feel comfortable disparaging “feminine” gender performance as things that women do to look pretty for men or to boost men’s egos. Having a “female” gender role has value. It is hard, however, to deconstruct what people mean when they talk about gender.

    I’m uncomfortable with labeling myself “femme” because gender itself doesn’t really figure into my identity, but I know that for me to act like a more “masculine” gender role would be a performance. I would have to actively study how men behave, figure out what behaviors are different from how I behave, and then determine what behaviors are part of a “masculine” gender role and try to copy them.

    I am honestly confused as to whether women who don’t identify as particularly “feminine” naturally deconstruct and gain fluency in “traditional” female gendered behavior just by living as female or if they have to work at it the same way I would have to work at understanding more “masculine” gender roles. The reason I ask this is because I had a conversation with a gender-queer male friend in which he told me that he feels uncomfortable in all male situations precisely because he doesn’t really understand “male bonding behavior” even though he can mimic it. My friend’s statements would seem to indicate that being raised as a certain gender doesn’t equal fluency in gendered behavior.

    I know that for me gendered behavior isn’t much of a choice. I could choose to change how I preform my gender but it would be difficult and would feel like I’m bowing to all the people in the gay community who see women who “don’t act like lesbians” as less authentic than women who do. I have been told that I “act like a straight girl” don’t dress “like a lesbian” and have great difficulty convincing men in gay clubs that I am in fact gay. Dressing and behaving “butch” or even say cutting my hair and not wearing skirts or makeup would be a performance for me. I would be faking it so to speak if I abandoned the appearance and behavior that I know and follow and tried to behave in a so-called “post-gendered” way which often means abandoning “feminine” behaviors rather than actually moving past gender.

    It really bothers me when women in my community argue against so called “traditional gender roles” by degrading “feminine” behaviors in favor of women adopting more “masculine” behaviors. I think that there is value in showing my feelings openly, being unafraid to ask questions or admit weakness, enjoying pretty clothes, and being polite and empathetic to people I meet. These are all stereotypical female behaviors.

  72. I’m the one who posted that long list of “shaving legs/ etc.” I don’t shave my legs or wear lipstick either. The point is that I don’t do these things not because I don’t realize they’re expected of me. I am “fluent in … womanhood” in the sense that I realize that traditional womanhood requires all of these behaviors of me and yet I actively reject them.

    That’s the difference Mikey (still) refuses to clarify: whether he wants somehow who is simply aware of these requirements (i.e. as every single woman is) or someone who will fulfill them (in which case he is a prick).

  73. Melissa, I don’t think the commenters here are denigrating all behaviors traditionally associated with femininity. Empathy is a valuable trait for anyone. The problem is that the valuable-for-anyone bits of human behavior have been split between masculinity and femininity, and in both cases a lot of unpleasant things have been added in. Then female people are supposed to be feminine, with all the good and bad things that go along with it, and male people are supposed to be masculine (ditto).

    The challenge of being post-gender is to decide what is and isn’t valuable about femininity and masculinity, and try to live those regardless of your sex. I think there are a lot more positives implicit in our idea of masculinity than our idea of femininity, which may be why, despite the fact that I wear heels and makeup and skirts, people sometimes tell me I would “make a good man.”

  74. That’s the difference Mikey (still) refuses to clarify: whether he wants somehow who is simply aware of these requirements (i.e. as every single woman is) or someone who will fulfill them (in which case he is a prick).

    I’ve been kind of assuming a third possibility: That he wants someone who’ll be able to pass on the skills involved to their kids, since he can’t — someone who knows how to put on makeup and braid hair and that kind of thing.

    But that’s a dead-end too, it seems to me. If, as a parent, you find that you want to know how to braid your kid’s hair, you learn. These aren’t mysteries that can only be possessed by the initiated.

  75. What I tried to express in my “not butch or whatever” “disclaimer” is that in my expirence not doing all those femme things doesn’t make you look weird in general public eyes or really stand out. As a consequence you are not reprimanded as harshly for not following those rituals, as I’ve heard certain women claim. In other words there is actually no bold statement in not puting on makeup etc, so I expect there would be quite a few women who don’t do it and never did.

    BTW, actually the only person to give me useful tips about shaving was my husband 🙂 I figured it out by myself as a teen, and my technique wasn’t so good. But now you have the internet, so everybody can learn by themselves 🙂

  76. nausicaa @ 79:

    I do think there’s a difference between learning about gendered expectations, and actually learning how to perform those expectations. There’s a big difference. I know all about how women are supposed to wear makeup & be fashionable, but I’m really not good at doing it myself.

    I absolutely agree that there’s a difference between learning about theory and practice when it comes to gendered expectations. That was part of the point of my comment–I wasn’t seeing a distinction made between the two. When someone says “Wait a minute, did you all learn how to shave your legs and put on makeup and giggle and pout and cook?” I feel the need to respond that even if we didn’t learn how, we learned it was important.

    Where I think things get really interesting is trying to work out how learning practice vs. theory impacts us later in life. If I learn how to put on makeup, not just that makeup is important, am I more likely to internalize it? More likely to teach my daughter? Or perhaps more likely to reject it? And what about those of us who learned our gender expectations as survival mechanisms–wearing dresses because we had to as girls, or playing sports because otherwise we got beaten up as boys? It was extremely useful to learn the practice in these situations, but the people who taught us the practice were more than likely the same ones enforcing the expectations we had trouble meeting.

    So to me, when someone says he wants a wife “fluent in traditional womanhood,” what that means is that he wants a high-maintainance girly girl. A femme, if you will.

    Not to be nitpicky, but femmes aren’t high-maintenance by nature, nor are butches (or otherwise “masculine” women) necessarily low-maintenance.

  77. When someone says “Wait a minute, did you all learn how to shave your legs and put on makeup and giggle and pout and cook?” I feel the need to respond that even if we didn’t learn how, we learned it was important.

    OK, my point was of course that I also never felt it was important. I never felt I’d benifit from learning how to do it. I don’t feel like I have issues because I don’t. Not doing all that is really no big deal in my experience.

    What I did learn from society, the media, etc is that such things are expected from women by some people and in certain circles. But I used to condescend on those ideas as a teen and I certainly do now too. Once again, it never made me personally want to follow those rules.

    What interests me really is if this kind of experience I had is something strange.

  78. Not to be nitpicky, but femmes aren’t high-maintenance by nature, nor are butches (or otherwise “masculine” women) necessarily low-maintenance.

    That’s a very good point. In a certain sense, this all comes down to a question of *style*, not gender. To me, people who prioritize style are high-maintainence. I’ve certainly known very stylish butch girls, looking very sharp in Armani! And there are plenty of stylish straight and gay guys out there too. But for some reason, it seems to me like femme is inextricably intertwined with being stylish. (In that light, it’s interesting to consider the cultural sterotype of gay men as fashionable.) To clarify, I don’t think being stylish is a bad thing — I wish I could do it more effortlessly, like some of my friends. I’m just too lazy or too unfluent.

  79. Mikey, you seem pretty nice, but what’s the deal? What’s the point of being a guest blogger if you’re not going to participate in the discussion that follows your entry?
    And I echo what the others have said about cutting the bullshit and plainly saying what you mean. Do it. Enough with the flowery, meaningless verbiage. I definitely think you’re making it up as you go along, amending your opinions/feelings as we give you input. I don’t buy that by “fluent…traditional gendered womanhood” you meant “aware of what traditional gendered womanhood requires.” If that were the case, the internal conflict you claim to struggle with would not exist.

  80. Hmm. Well, it’d probably be good at this point if someone who identifies as femme could weigh in on the stylish issue. But given the great discussions we had a while back about femme and butch as nouns, I just hesitate to say that something like fashion is inextricably intertwined with an identity.

    And because I find that so many folks (even well-intentioned, otherwise progressive ones) still consider butch and femme to be binary opposites, (is that the most redundant thing I’ve said all day? Probably, but I’m keeping it) I’m quick to respond whenever someone says “femme means x” because I assume they’re implicitly saying “butch means not x.” That probably wasn’t your intent, but it’s good to think about these things.

    And capital N Nausicaa- I think we’re sort of saying the same thing. You say that these standards weren’t important in your own life, but you recognize “that such things are expected from women by some people and in certain circles.” That’s the kind of fluency I think we’re talking about here. Despite (as it sounds, anyway) being very aware of what was and wasn’t important to you, you weren’t able to escape these gender expectations as a facet of daily life, even if you didn’t feel they were present in your daily life. Does that make any sense?

  81. mk said:

    Well, it’d probably be good at this point if someone who identifies as femme could weigh in on the stylish issue.

    I don’t self identify as as femme, I do get identified as femme in lesbian company. I do think that their is an element of dressing well in clothes that fit in how people perceive femme identities. That said, some of my friends who identify as butch and never wear makeup spend much more time than I do choosing their clothes and trying to look stylish. If I’m wearing a t-shirt, jeans, and a ponytail, I still get the femme comments, and I’ve still had guys at parties hit on me assuming I’m straight when I didn’t take much time on my appearance.

    I think that demeanor rather than fashion is the most important signifier. The clothes are secondary. Unless I changed the way I behave, I don’t think that getting a haircut, taking off any makeup, and wearing jeans and a plain t-shirt would make me look any more “butch” or “masculine.”

  82. Sigh. I still think this was a perfect place to write with doubt about what I was recently thinking about.

    What kind of a response is this? I’m sorry. Were you expecting a cookie?

    Why haven’t you clarified any of the ambiguity inherent in your post? Why aren’t you responding to any of the comments?

    There’s been a lot of great discussion here, and you seem to be sticking your fingers in your ears; instead of responding substantively, you whine about the reception you’re getting. Talk about a classic example of male privilege.

  83. In fairness to mikey, I wouldn’t be so keen on responding to some of these comments either. It’s not that I don’t share the frustration, but it must be really difficult to post something as a guest blogger and get a lot of negative responses. It seems that the issue here is that mikey’s writing is confusing, probably because he’s not all that familiar with feminist theory and terminology.

    And while we all might be used to the feministe bloggers interacting a lot in comments, it’s certainly not a requirement of his guest blogging here.

  84. Lesbia’s Sparrow:

    I think there are a lot more positives implicit in our idea of masculinity than our idea of femininity, which may be why, despite the fact that I wear heels and makeup and skirts, people sometimes tell me I would “make a good man.”

    I was debating about whether to respond to this, and I really think that I ought to do so.

    I don’t want to sound mean, but why do you come to the conclusion that stereotypical masculinity tends to have more positive characterizations than stereotypical femininity?

    It reminds me of how some people value stereotypical men’s work more than stereotypical women’s work.

    I agree with you completely that both gender roles are highly problematic. In addition because of the “madonna/whore” dichotomy among other things, what’s considered proper female behavior is probably more complicated and contradictory than proper male behavior. However, I have to note that “masculine” character traits when taken to the extreme seem to be a lot more damaging to other people than “feminine” character traits.

    Feminism fights against women being caught in so-called traditional gender roles that value being passive and self-less among other traits. Women who embrace stereotypically feminine roles often get victimized by other people and are told that their own happiness doesn’t matter. Men who embrace stereotypically masculine roles, on the other hand, can become victimizers. Our culture, in part because it is male dominated, tends to value traditionally male work more than female work and also tends to value stereotypically male-gendered behaviors more than female-gendered behaviors. The example of behaviors that I had in my head is being aggressive (male) and being submissive (female). Both are negative traits when a person displays them in the extreme but which is worse?

  85. I totally agree that masculine traits, when taken to the extreme, are probably more harmful than feminine traits at a similar extreme. However, masculine people (male or female — I wish we had a word that meant “masculine” without specifying sex, and I don’t think “man” does it) isn’t usually taken to that extreme — or if it is, it’s generally condemned, whereas feminine behavior is expected to be utterly submissive and non-confrontational. Strength is masculine, weakness feminine — I don’t want to conform to what the oppressed class is supposed to do simply because of my biology.

  86. I go with debbie (66) here. For your first post here you should have gone with “keep it simple, stupid”.

    This whole story sounds like the one-too-many guys I met telling me they are all about sharing household responsibilities and child-rearing and how they admire strong woman blahblahblah, “eewh, what’s that for an ugly fat chick? But, you wouldn’t mind being a stay-at-home mum if I earned more than you, would you?”

    Sadly none of your follow-up comments convinced me you were any different.

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