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Male attorneys: Totally victimized.

Prepare for your head to explode (and if you value your sanity, don’t read the comments):

Bryan Cave sponsored a “shoe event” in Manhattan recently for its female lawyers and female clients, described in great detail in a WSJ column yesterday. Earlier this month, Skadden Arps hosted its ninth annual Skadden Women’s retreat at the Ritz Carlton in Naples, Fla., attended by some 60 women partners and 135 women clients. The same weekend, Akin Gump held a similar event in Washington, D.C., for all of its female attorneys.

These types of women-only networking events are proliferating. “There are spa retreats, conferences at resorts, evenings at art galleries and cooking demonstrations, all organized by women who want to network and socialize with clients in their own way — at least some of the time,” writes the WSJ.

These confabs raise some complicated issues. What about the male clients of female lawyers? And the female lawyers of male clients? Some women think these events perpetuates stereotypes. And some men wonder, “With all the equality women have achieved, why do they continue to have these separate events?”

Yes, it’s women who are purposely segregating themselves in law firms. They’re totally equal, right? So why the separate events?

Maybe because women only make up something like 16% of partners, despite having graduated from law school in equal numbers as men for a pretty long time now. There are many reasons for this, including inflexible workplace policies and the “second shift” phenomenon, but networking is a major problem for women in law firms. Many of the networking events are male-oriented, and male associates are often able to bond more easily with male partners over a game of golf or a Knicks game or at one of the Old Boys’ bars. These kinds of events are not explicitly segregated, but they do effectively exclude women. But because men are organizing them, these networking events are “normal” and standard fare at firms.

But when events are targeted at a more stereotypically female audience — going to bars with fancy cocktails, spa retreats, cooking classes — they raise eyebrows and offend the male attorneys who are being “left out.” Funny how that works.

Now, we can certainly take issue with the stereotyping that goes on in the female-friendly events. There are undoubtedly plenty of women who would take courtside Knicks tickets over a spa retreat. But I’m not sure I see the issue of expanding networking events to include activities which, stereotypical as they may be, will often hold greater appeal to women. The examples given on the WSJ law blog — spa retreats, conferences at resorts, evenings at art galleries and cooking demonstrations — certainly don’t require vagina ownership. They may not appeal to all male lawyers, but I wouldn’t have an issue with using them as general networking options. Let men go to some activities that they may not love or know how to do if they want to network with partners and clients. Women in law firms have been doing it for a couple of decades — the guys can take their turn.

That said, I think the women-only events also serve an important purpose. The male-oriented events are effectively exclusive, and have long played a role in making it harder for women to achieve higher positions. It’s no big secret that, in mixed groups, men tend to dominate conversation and women tend to take a back seat. Forging relationships with female partners and clients, and having a chance to commiserate and discuss shared experiences, is valuable. But, while I don’t speak for all women, I’d certainly rather do it over a steak dinner or at a rock-climbing class than at a “shoe event.”

Thanks to Meredith and Katie for the link.


22 thoughts on Male attorneys: Totally victimized.

  1. The examples given on the WSJ law blog — spa retreats, conferences at resorts, evenings at art galleries and cooking demonstrations — certainly don’t require vagina ownership. They may not appeal to all male lawyers, but I wouldn’t have an issue with using them as general networking options.

    I agree, except for the spa retreats. My favorite spa/baths (which I often go to with colleagues) is single sex. Because of the Naked, you know.

    That said, I think the women-only events also serve an important purpose. The male-oriented events are effectively exclusive, and have long played a role in making it harder for women to achieve higher positions.

    The main result of women-only networking events is that they do specifically increase the networking capabilities of women. I think men are just grousing because they view it as a zero-sum game. What’s funny is that a lot of these activities grew out of women feeling isolated in the workplace and perceiving a need to put together an Old Girls’ network because they could see they were never going to be accepted via the Old Boys route, and they couldn’t get male colleagues to commit to attending less exclusive networking events. So they decided to hell with it and started putting together their own gigs, and now the men are feeling left out. Aw.

    I agree with you– let them go to some networking activities that aren’t right up their alley, and let them rack their brains trying to think of activities that will appeal to everyone for a change.

  2. Shit, on first reading, I thought the events had to all be explicitly women-only/no-men-allowed, given the ‘exclusion’ response. But, uh, holding events you think (however erroneously) that women will enjoy? Oh, the poor poor mens, not having every option catered to them!

    Despite the warning, I waded ankle-deep into the comments before I found this gem:

    My son’s college has an African-American dormitory where white students are unwelcome to reside. Imagine the uproar if the roles were reversed! This stinks.

    Gee, you wouldn’t suppose there might be a relevant power imbalance between black/white, as well as female/male, in our society, do you?

  3. “Let men go to some activities that they may not love or know how to do if they want to network with partners and clients.”

    I imagine a lot of them already do, seeing as having a penis doesn’t automatically mean you’re going to love golf, boozing, poker, or sports. This doesn’t seem like it presents some sort of undue barrier to guys–especially since I doubt that there’s a complete absence of men in the field who wouldn’t far rather spend an evening at an upscale cooking demonstration than spend an afternoon chasing stray golf balls into gator-territory–while making it much easier for women to network.

    Ideally, it would give rise to a normalization of shindigs that neither gender finds off-putting, or at least a great enough variety that nobody’s getting frequently shafted.

  4. Yag. What percentage of the place is white? There are probably whole dorm floors where there aren’t any black folks because they don’t feel welcome, but create a place for the folks to congregate expressly and watch the backlash! Damn.

    Anyway, blah. All this backlash to the backlash is getting me down.

  5. I loved that WSJ article. Especially funny was the whine about why women just didn’t learn to play golf like the guys do.

  6. Bet you dollars to donuts that these firms also sponsor tables at, say, the (IIRC) Friendly Sons of St. Patrick dinner, which is black-tie, all-male, and attended by the city’s power brokers. My first firm had a table there, to which they invited male clients. It was a HUGE bone of contention at the office, where there were only 2 of 13 female partners, but 9 of 13 female associates. They justified this by saying that they couldn’t afford to not go, with the networking opportunities.

    And one of the partners had monthly all-male “alumni” dinners, to which only male associates, former attorneys, and clients were invited for steak, brandy and cigars. And, of course, bonding and networking. There were precious few opportunities for the female attorneys to hobnob with the clients, let alone mayors and cardinals.

    IOW, cry me a river about gatherings designed to appeal to women.

  7. Oh, another problem with golf — many clubs won’t give women favorable tee times, so that kind of cuts into the ability of women to host golf outings.

  8. Women-only gatherings? Awesome. Women-only gatherings with gendered themes? Teh Suck. “Shoe Weekend?” FFS. Now, “Spa Day” I can get behind.

  9. I just realized the problem with idiot arguments like this:

    My son’s college has an African-American dormitory where white students are unwelcome to reside. Imagine the uproar if the roles were reversed! This stinks.

    Actually, two problems. First, there’s no way it’s an official policy, because duh. Meaning there’s really nothing stopping white students from living there except peer pressure, which leads to the second problem:

    Even if this asshat’s son felt “welcome” to reside there, does anyone think there’s a snowball’s chance in hell he actually would?

  10. There is a huge distinction between activities geared towards women and exclusionary activities that don’t allow men at all.

    Those aren’t even worth discussing together.

    You can make an argument for the latter but that argument is much more convoluted and essentially amounts to “it’s ok for us to discriminate because most of the times we are the ones being discriminated against.” Which really is not a very sympathetic position although it does have some merit.

    The argument for female-centric events is a no-brainer.

  11. A friend of mine did his second-year summer at Kirkpatrick Lockhart (DC office). When the guy associates were off golfing, the women associates were … at the spa, indeed.

    Coincidentally, so was the one male summer associate who used a wheelchair. He wasn’t into golf, and they weren’t going to an accessible course anyway. The nonsensical gender-divided activities are but the tip of the iceberg at big firms. oy.

    Another reason to be glad I work at a small firm! (Not that it isn’t still a boys club; I mean, it’s a law firm. But our activities are always open to everyone – bowling, softball, baby showers, you name it.)

  12. Golf sucks. So does shoe shopping. Why can’t they have events that a greater majority of people would enjoy, like a barbeque? As long as vegetables are available at a barbeque it seems hard to find someone who would get nothing out of going to one, and I speak as a person who hates barbeque sauce. 🙂

    I would never go to a spa if it involved being naked in front of humans I’m not married to (or related to who are older than three.) I don’t do public nudity. I imagine lots of people feel the same way. And if there won’t be nudity then there’s no reason not to make it mixed sex.

  13. Personally, I can’t stand the whole firm atmosphere where you need to “network” all the time and participate in these bourgeois events just to be able to do your job and succeed. I’m in law to practice law, not to drum up business by sucking up to the elite. Which could be why I am looking for more public sector work.

    But with these type of events, I don’t see how this is catering to female associates anymore than it is catering to the female clients.

  14. Golf sucks. So does shoe shopping. Why can’t they have events that a greater majority of people would enjoy, like a barbeque?

    Amen, sister!

  15. The nonsensical gender-divided activities are but the tip of the iceberg at big firms. oy.

    A thousand times yes.

    I am very fortunate to be at a small firm. Our events include going to theater performances (both sexes included in hosts and invitees), going to dance performances (women included in hosts and invitees, because male didn’t come in the first go-rounds, and the male attorneys don’t want to go anyway), small events that are usually one-on-one (and therefore tailored to the interests of the client, be they male or female, and therefore might include golf or the opera or something else), and a large associate event that is hosted by all women (because all of the associates are women) and including only women (because in our associate-level network, there would only be a handful of guys, and we wouldn’t want them to feel awkward about being minoritized). Every once in a while there will be a faint-hearted grouse from a male partner about the gynocentrism, but upon being reminded that they, too, are completely welcome to the dance performance or the opera, they remember their own preferences and quiet down. Precious little bullshit, which is nice.

    Now, ask me again whether my firm is great when I come up for partner in 2 years. If elevated, I would shift the mix from 3 men and 2 women to a 50/50 mix. I’m not sure that my enabling the firm to have a women-owned business designation would be enough of an appeal to make up for the loss of dominant male voting. We shall see…

  16. but that argument is much more convoluted and essentially amounts to “it’s ok for us to discriminate because most of the times we are the ones being discriminated against.” Which really is not a very sympathetic position although it does have some merit.

    You know it’s odd, but while I’ve seen several different arguments for female-only spaces, none of them have even boiled down to anything remotely like “it’s okay for us to discrimintae because most of the time we’re the ones being discriminated against.” Got any examples of The Payback Principle?

  17. It’s also important to note that even for those women who’d rather have the Knicks tickets than the shoe event, they still don’t get any points for ‘being one of the guys’. The very presence of a female is a downer, no matter how much of a ‘good sport’ she may be.

    A lesson learned the hard way, as most of them are.

  18. in 2001 a young associate I knew worked at a firm that held its firm retreat at a country club that didn’t admit women. Then the male partners asked her why they had such trouble recruiting and keeping female attorneys.

  19. You know it’s odd, but while I’ve seen several different arguments for female-only spaces, none of them have even boiled down to anything remotely like “it’s okay for us to discrimintae because most of the time we’re the ones being discriminated against.” Got any examples of The Payback Principle?

    The typical argument for women-only schools is that in mixed-sex classrooms men tend to dominate the conversation and the women don’t get a fair shake. An all female school means female students get more attention, participate more, etc. Which is true, which I why I said the argument has some merit.

    That said, that is still discrimination and the justification is that in mixed-sex classes women are essentially discriminated against. (Maybe “discriminated” is not the right word here – disadvantaged due to the behavior of male classmates)

    Because women are somewhat excluded from mixed-sex classrooms, the remedy is to completely exclude men. That is not “payback” but it is justifying exclusion by appealing to previous (reversed) exclusion. Maybe it would be more accurate to say in that case the argument being made is “it’s ok to exclude men because in mixed-sex classrooms we are largely excuded.”

    As I said it has some merit, but it isn’t an easy argument to make. While men do tend to dominate discussions women aren’t absolutely barred from those discussions. It’s also the case that quieter men are excluded to much the same degree. In my experience most classroom discusions are dominated by a few people who are mostly men, but not by men as a collective group.

    An operational trend towards exclusion to some degree is different from being excluded by rule. It is not impossible for a woman to dominate a mixed-sex discussion, but it is impossible for a man to dominate a female-only discussion.

    Note that I’m not saying that female-only schools are a terrible idea, or that female-only lawyer events are a terrible idea. I’m just saying that events that appeal to women rather than that absolutely exclude men are much much easier to argue for. (And most likely accomplish the same thing)

    How can anyone be against doing a variety of activities that appeal to different types of people? But it is fairly easy to be against activities that by rule exclude people. To say that certain people are just not allowed at all understandably rubs some the wrong way.

  20. That is not “payback” but it is justifying exclusion by appealing to previous (reversed) exclusion.

    It’s actually justifying exclusion by stating that it is a lesser evil than the results of inclusion.

    BTW, few law firms officially say “this event is for men only”. It’s just that you don’t get quite so many female associates if, oh, you just happen to pick a firm event at a strip bar, or at an exclusive men’s club.

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