I have literally been sitting her for the last fifteen minutes with my browser open on Feministe, hitting refresh over and over again, waiting for this thread to go up. Holy frak (doesn’t anyone actually know if it’s frak or frack?) doesn’t even begin to cover it. And the new season doesn’t begin until early 2008 according to the Sci-Fi channel website . . . so wrong, so wrong, so wrong. I’ll have something more coherent when I’m done processing the utter and complete shock.
And for the record, making me wait nine months for the next episode has got to constitute some Eighth Amendment violation. Hey, I’ll shoehorn Ron Moore into the state actor category somehow.
I am never reading spoilers again. That was cool, but would’ve been so much cooler if I hadn’t known most everything. sob.
The fifth Cylon is Bob Dylan. And maybe it’s just me, but learning that Tory is a Cylon makes her hotter. I’ve always had a thing for foreign chicks. Still, Starbuck is the captain of my heart. I knew she wouldn’t leave me. I mean “us”. No, I mean “me.” Welcome back, Kara. I saved a pint of Ben & Jerry’s “Stephen Colbert’s Americone Dream” just for you. I want you to eat it all, as there is no way in HELL that you are “fat.” I’ll be content just to watch you eat it, and stare into your dreamy eyes. I feel a “In Your Eyes”/Say Anything… moment coming on. Would you all mind giving Captain Thrace and me a few moments? Thanks a bunch. And turn down the lights when you leave.
Did she look a bit glowy? Why did she look a bit glowy? I think you mean “dreamy”. We missed he so much that now she looks dreamy. QED.
I’m so thrilled to see Starbuck back that I really can’t manage to work up anny annoyance with Ron for falling into the “dead isn’t forever” trap.
The last 10 minutes of this episode blew my damn mind. Best use of All Along the Watchtower ever. It was so intense! Is Kara the 5th cylon?? What does it all mean? Augh!
Also, where did they user Baltar off to? Is he going to be some kind of cult leader now? What’s up with those chicks thinking he’s some kind of spiritual leader or something? Why doesn’t Roslin just take some more of Hera’s blood? Why are Caprica’s, Athena’s, and Roslin’s subconsciousness linked? Is it the Kamalah root? Sorry for the double post.
My theory is that Caprica is somehow trying to magic-Cylon-connect with Hera, and that Athena and Roslin are getting caught up because they are both connected to Hera by blood (because of the whole motherhood thing and the stem cells thing).
Beautiful beautiful beautiful beautiful. And left so many questions, I’m probably going to drop dead of anticipation and too much hashing it out in my brain, long before the new season starts. Not to mention… SWEET MOTHER OF CHRIST ON A CRACKER, is it ever good to have Kara back!
Zuzu, you took the words right out of my mouth. In their entirety, in fact. When Apollo saw the bogey, I was like, “That’s fucking Starbuck. Holy crap.” They made All Along The Watchtower *fit* their show, absolutely perfect despite being a departure from their usual soundtrack. The faceoff in the rec room, and the knowing glances afterward… And Baltar! Yes! What about Baltar? I love that Lee was allowed to really round out a couple good episodes from an acting standpoint, and really just hit it out of the park. And Tigh… Man. He’s probably my favorite actor of the bunch. Holy crap. Hoh-lee-crap. That was intense š
Wait, what? Am I not the only one who thought this whole episode egregiously telegraphed? And the nĆ¼-metal version of Dylan/Hendrix, which made me question all the brilliant musical direction in the rest of the series, did it not suck? I mean, I know Jeff Buckley’s dead, but if you’re going to break the mood (and, in so doing, imply that there’s some contact with post-1960’s us such that they’d be hearing and repeating the lyrics to that tune), shouldn’t you at least have the common decency to play a serviceable cover of the song? Maybe the finales of the first two seasons spoiled me, but I really expected to be outwitted again, and this…I could’ve come up with this. (And I’m not the bright, far from creative, and the last person you’d want on the writing staff of anything that didn’t star Ted Danson.)
As much as I hate to, upon a little bit of thought, I don’t think Starbuck’s alive. I think she’s giving Lee a vision. Seriously, y’all… HOW in the hell are we supposed to just wait until ’08?
I think this is only the second time ever that I’ve delurked here, but no one at work watches this show so- sweet Jesus, I never knew just how much I loved Kara until I saw her in that viper. Never leave me again, baby. Also, Tigh is suddenly a compelling character again. And the nĆ¼-metal version of Dylan/Hendrix, which made me question all the brilliant musical direction in the rest of the series, did it not suck? It did indeed suck, although I can’t complain about the decision to use the song itself, just the shitty cover. I wish they’d just used a juiced up version of the Hendrix version. They could have added as much sitar as they liked. Also, I capital-H-Hated the ridiculous zoomy pull-out at the end. Why not just show a 2-D map of the galaxy with a big green dot for the fleet and a red X for Earth? It would have been just as cheesy, but much less expensive. That said, guh. Kara’s back, in whatever way, shape or form. I can’t complain.
Tigh’s “Oh gods, Ellen…what about Ellen?” just about cemented Michael Hogan’s place in my heart forever. So beautifully delivered. (and, in so doing, imply that thereās some contact with post-1960ās us such that theyād be hearing and repeating the lyrics to that tune), The show’s musical director talks about that on his blog (link yoinked from StaticAge at Pandagon). I think the song is just Ron Moore being goofy. He has been known to do that (like when he wanted to introduce “God” in the last episode of the first season but got shouted down by the other writers). Personally, I think the next season is going to set us up for a cosmic battle between the human gods and the Cylon god. It wouldn’t be out of character for Moore (cf. prophets and pah-wraiths from DS9), and it allows me to persist in believing that those four aren’t Cylons, but are being called upon by human gods. I believe this because I want to, not because I have any real evidence. Ha.
Allison: and it allows me to persist in believing that those four arenāt Cylons, but are being called upon by human gods. I believe this because I want to, not because I have any real evidence. Ha. Oh, wow. I hadn’t thought of that. That would be SO cool! And so MUCH cooler than “sleeper cylons”. *massive grin!* It would tie in nicely with Chief Tyrrel (sp?) having had the religious family background he has mentioned. Here’s me hoping really, REALLY hard that you are right. (Didn’t realize that Moore was involved with DS9 – bad geek! – and you are right. With all the metaphysical weirdness that went on in THAT series, I could see him pulling something like what you mentioned here. I hope.) And really, them expecting loyal viewer to just hang in there for 3/4 of a year is just *cruel*. There has to be a law against that *somewhere*, doesn’t there? Please? I have to admit that, as much as I was happy that the bogey was Starbuck (could it have have been anyone/thing ELSE?!?), I’m disappointed that they brought her back at the end of the season. I would have liked it had they stretched it out for a few more episodes, faked us into thinking they really DID off her for, like, REAL. Not that we would have believed it anyway, but it would have had more suspense. Particularly with the frakking NINE MONTH wait!!! *snarl!*
I still love the show but I was kinda left with the feeling of “blah”. I knew something was off with the four of the “sleepers” from the last episode when it was only them who could hear the music and now to actually have them come out and say “We’re Cylons” doesn’t make that much sense. How was Tigh able to be a sleeper for so long when he was a part of the first Cylon war, LOOOOONG before they made the human models? He knew Admiral Adama as well so there *is* evidence of his long existence. And if the Chief is a Cylon then what does that make his child with Callie? Or is the child not his? I knew Moore didn’t have the gaul to kill off Starbuck so I wasn’t surprised by that at all and I hate to break it to the Starbuck fans but Katie Sackhoff will only be coming back as a guest star for next season, not a full fledged cast member so she won’t be in too many episodes. (found this out in an interview with Sackhoff) Though we will be getting 22 straight episodes and not 12/13 or whatever so that’ll be awesome. Although the shot of Earth rocked for me (played that back about four times, thank Gods for DVR), I just wasn’t feeling that this was as good as when Boomer shot Adama.
I love, love, love Baltar in this episode. No matter how cowardly and self-deluded his acts, he’s only ever entertaining and compelling. I just about howled when he was chewing out Gaeta for his failed attempt to kill him, “BUTTERFINGERS!”…not to mention his squawk of indignation when his counsel declined to cross-examine. Hahahaha.
I think there’s seriously something wrong with Tigh, in particular, being a Cylon. His background is clearly established — he was in the first Cylon war, before the other Cylon infiltrators were placed. Additionally (assuming Starbuck is the fifth Cylon model) it’s clear that Starbuck’s mother was a real person: there’s physical evidence of the abuse that Starbuck suffered. I think there’s substantial evidence that the “final five” are something qualitatively different from the infiltrators. First of all, there are not multiples of any of them. Second, there don’t appear to be any aboard the basestars. Third, the Cylons don’t seem to know who they are. Remember: in BSG, history is cyclical, not linear. I think the “final five” are identified with the Lords of Kobol (if the Cylon and human religions are unrelated, why do the Cylons think Kobol is sacred? Why do they want to find earth?), and may be reincarnations — of a more distant sort than Cylon reincarnation — of ancient figures. — ACS
Hey everybody, Here’s an interview with Ron Moore himself, talking about the season finale. Interesting stuff. I certainly hope he will answer all these questions.
ACS says: Additionally (assuming Starbuck is the fifth Cylon model) itās clear that Starbuckās mother was a real person: thereās physical evidence of the abuse that Starbuck suffered. I don’t think that we can safely make that assumption at this point, though I can see where the impetus to do so comes from. I think at this point it’s pretty clear that Baltar is one of the Final Five, which is a pretty darn interesting twist, given his kidnapping and apparent elevation to messianic status. Seeing how Ron Moore chooses to have that play out is something I’m really looking forward to, especially since it’s true to the original series (in a roundabout sort of way) without actually being a direct rip-off. As far as Starbuck is concerned, my theory is that it’s going to become clear that she’s some sort of messenger from the Colonial gods.
Shark? What shark?…oh, you mean this shark? The one I just jumped? Bah humbug. I was glad to see Starbuck back, but I really expected a better entrance. “Hi, Lee.” No smirk, no hint of badassery–come on, haven’t we seen wilting Flowerbuck long enough? Can we get some ass kicking around here? I hope that Nikki and Hera grow up to get married and start a brand new race of half-bloods.
Do we know where Tigh served during the first colonial war? Could he be Starbuckās cylon daddy? Tigh served with Adama aboard the Galactica during the first Cylon war. — ACS
Tigh served with Adama aboard the Galactica during the first Cylon war. Actually, according to the backstory established at the beginning of Season 2, Tigh and Adama first met while they were civilians, about 20 years before the series starts. This still puts Tigh way outside the timeframe established for the other sleepers, but makes it somewhat more plausible. (Then again, Adama got Tigh reinstated in the Colonial military, so records of his service during the First Cylon War did exist.)
I knew something was off with the four of the āsleepersā from the last episode when it was only them who could hear the music and now to actually have them come out and say āWeāre Cylonsā doesnāt make that much sense. Only if you assume that they’re correct in thinking that they’re Cylons and that they’re not misinterpreting what they’ve been experiencing. Just sayin’ ….
Mnemosyne, Check out the interview with Ron Moore, who is asked if they are actually Cylons and he says “yes”: R: Are these four all full Cylons? RM: Yes, but they are different fundamentally. So yeah, they’re Cylons. Though I’ll wait until Ron Moore and Co. explian HOW they’re Cylons before I put my hand on the airlock button;)
Check out the interview with Ron Moore, who is asked if they are actually Cylons and he says āyesā: He could be lying. *justify justify*
Yeah, he could be lying. Or he could just be confused. This is a guy who messed up his own backstory, as established in the mini-series that he wrote, when he signed off on “Hero” (for my part, I think “Hero” is in a neck-and-neck competition with “A Measure of Salvation” for Second Worst Episode Ever). And yeah, I know Moore didn’t actually write any of the Worst Episode Ever contenders, but he’s the guy that has to give final script approval.
He could be lying. *justify justify* You know what? I certainly hope so. In talking with one of my co-workers I realized something: Back in season 1 Baltar came up with the Cylon detection machine which was proven to work when it was revealed that Boomer was in fact a Cylon. HeadSix told him to keep his mouth shut, lest Boomer’s programming turn on and she kill him. If I am remembering this correctly all of the higher up officers were tested by the machine, which would include Tigh and the Chief, who *should* have been revealed as Cylons which would have totally screwed up the Final Five plot line but as my co-worker said if Moore is going with the “they’re fundamentally different” line then they could have *passed* and Moore can just sweep that under the rug all he wants. Still just makes me think he’s playing fast and loose with his own mythology.
In that interview link above Moore says the final five are “fundamentally different” Cylons. Maybe Tigh and the gang were human but have been cylon-cloned? In what other way could they be different?
Since you asked, TomCody, At the conclusion of Tigh me up, Tigh me down, Baltar said that he’d fixed the detector to detect EVERYONE as human. Armagh444, Baltar was standing with Hera, and the five were up on the balcony. This suggests he’s not a member of the five. Everyone, Wht do you mean, I’m an irritating pedantic lurker
TomCody – but then in the episode that introduces Ellen Tigh, Baltar specifically says that everyone comes up green now. I’ve never been able to figure out whether it means he broke the machine (and even he doesn’t know who the Cylons are) or whether he still conducts legitimate tests and just falsifies the results. I guess if it were the latter, Baltar would know about Tigh, but either way, it’s a pretty big loophole for Moore to dance through.
Allison, all of that presumes, however, that Baltar’s cylon detector would work on one of the Final Five. Are the Final Five really that different? Well, they’ve spent a good part of the last year and a half setting up how apart the Final Five are, with the Seven Dwarves (I really like that name; anyone know who came up with it) never having even seen any of them. I don’t think it’s completely inconceivable that Baltar’s cylon-detector would fail to pick them up.
Yeah, Armagh. I haven’t seen ANY of the third season besides this ep so I’m pretty behind on the final five stuff. It would be easier to tell if only the Galactica had spent more time at Ragnar Anchorage!
Maybe I’m late to the party on this one, but the courtroom scene with Lee on the stand finally put Baltar’s “surfer Jesus” style into perspective. If humanity needed someone to kill in order to expiate all of their sins while on New Caprica, Baltar’s wearing the right look.
Thanks Allison, I’d forgotten about the “fixing” of the machine. I’ll have to watch it again because just from my memory, when they tested Ellen and she came up “green” HeadSix leaned in and asked Baltar something along the lines of “Is she real?” and Baltar said “I’ll never tell.” or something like that. All the more reason for me to re-watch the earlier episodes. š
All the more reason for me to re-watch the earlier episodes. š Yup, that’s what I’m gonna be doing for the next nine months. Except the Ron Moore interview did say that there’ll be some teaser episodes in the fall; at least that’ll salve my withdrawal a little.
I just saw the episode because Apple hates me and waits forever to put BSG episodes on iTunes. š I loved the episode. I found the music pretty distracting, but I was willing to forgive that by the end of the episode. I know my emotions were totally being manipulated by the music and bringing Starbuck back (even after I was annoyed last week by the fact that they would no doubt bring her back in some cheesy way), but still, it was a good episode. I like Tigh again, which is nice. Baltar seems worth having on the show again, also a plus. Lee is no longer made out of cardboard, also nice. š I’m really sad to have to wait so long for the continuation. I still find religion to be one of the most compelling themes in this show, and I hope they start developing the Cylon theology and how it relates to human polytheism some more. And I hope they start exploring the Chief’s background, whether it’s to explain how he’s a Cylon or how he and the others are something else entirely. I am really wowed.
Oh, and I just noticed in the interview that was posted earlier (this one) that they’re probably going to kill off my favorite President before they all get to earth. Something about Roslin being like Moses, fated never to reach the promised land. :-(((
Oh, man, this episode. Whoo. Like everyone else, I have a theory. And mine is: the Five split off from the rest of the Cylons *before* they took human form; before the first war, even. Possibly *because* the rest of the Cylons were planning the war, and the Five didn’t agree with it– which would certainly explain why at least four of them were major players in the resistance. I can’t really think of another reason that the other seven Cylons wouldn’t know what the Five look like. D’Anna number is Three, right? So unless the model numbers have nothing to do with the order the twelve models were made, or came into being, or whatever, the Threes predate at least two of the Final Five. Or, wait– could they be the Final Five because they’re numbers 8-12? No, Sharon is Eight, isn’t she? So that doesn’t work. Hm. Either way, at least some of the other Cylons should have coexisted with them for a while. Which means that they all had some existence prior to their humanform one, because that has to be the point at which the split occurred.
Grillo says: Baltar was standing with Hera, and the five were up on the balcony. This suggests heās not a member of the five. The problem is that, outside of him being a member of the Five, I can’t even begin to explain why he was hearing the Dylan song. TomCody says: All the more reason for me to re-watch the earlier episodes. š I have a feeling that – many thanks to Ron Moore making us wait for fraking ever for next season, I’m going to end up wearing out my DVD’s of the first two seasons.
I canāt really think of another reason that the other seven Cylons wouldnāt know what the Five look like. DāAnna number is Three, right? So unless the model numbers have nothing to do with the order the twelve models were made, or came into being, or whatever, the Threes predate at least two of the Final Five. We still don’t know who Number One is. IIRC, the Dean Stockwell Cylon is Number Two. My guess is that Tigh, Tyrol, Tori, and Anders are numbers 9 – 12. I think Number One is Patrick McGoohan. Information! We want information! OK, not really. But that would be awesome.
Oh, forgot to add this. I think Number 1 created Numbers 9 – 12 away from the other 7 models. Or the humans are “number 1″…
Okay, first of all, I’ve watched te end minute about 50 times now. The viper pull back shot… It’s so beautifully side-of-the-customized-van I can’t contain myself. YES, the cover tune vocals are chee-zeee, but WHO CARES! Think about the whole ‘this has all happened before’ thing. Are all the ‘humans’ just cylons from a previous cycle thousands of years ago? (maybe co-incidental with Greek Civ.) Or are the ‘sleepers’ sort of like Replicants, maybe the original Tigh was killed off to be replaced by an early 1.0 version of human Cylon complete with a lifetime of memories (remember how ‘Boomer’ had the same kind of lifetime of memories) I think Rosslyn is the fifth cylon because she’s sharing dreams with Athena and the 6. I’m down like a fat man on a see saw for anything Moore and Co. want to throw at us.
nona, I hadn’t even thought of that. Since we know the main seven models (have we seen all of those? I can’t remember…) don’t know what the last five look like, obviously something along the lines of what you’re saying has happened. That should be interesting… Also, can I just say I already love Feministe as a feminist blog, but the fact that I can come here and gossip about BSG without every other comment being “Man, that episode sucked, I’m never watching the show again” makes me very, very happy. Almost every other thread I’ve seen about this episode was filled with negativity. So thanks, zuzu (and the commentariat š
Why doesnāt Roslin just take some more of Heraās blood? It wasn’t Hera’s blood; it was Hera’s blood in utero So now that she’s born it might not work anymore. In fact I seem to recall a statement to that effect, but I could be wrong.
Chris T – I just saw the episode because Apple hates me and waits forever to put BSG episodes on iTunes. š If you’ve got broadband and an .avi player, torrentspy usually has a torrent up before it even airs on the west coast. And it’s free. I think the Roslin-as-Moses thing has been out in the open since the first season. It’s one of the first things that makes her start looking to the scriptures, because the scrolls of Pythia say that a dying leader blah blah won’t make it to the promised land, and she knew she was dying. She just didn’t know yet that the writers were going to give her a season in remission š Actually, come to think of it, I think that’s why they’re heading towards Earth in particular, because the scrolls said that it’s the promised land the dying leader won’t make it to, or something.