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Anti-Choicers: Appealing to Black Women?

This article in the LA Times details how anti-abortion activists and so-called “crisis pregnancy centers” are targeting women of color (and black women in particular). There’s so much to say about this that I’m not sure where to start, but numbers are probably a good place:

“Often the inner-city, the immigrant and minority populations are invisible when we think of the whole abortion issue,” said Peggy Hartshorn, president of Heartbeat International, which runs nearly 900 antiabortion counseling centers across the nation — almost all in mostly white suburbs.

Huh. Heartbeat International alone runs nearly 900 anti-abortion centers. In total, there are 2300 of these anti-choice centers across the country. The grand total of abortion providers in the United States is 1,819. Just something to consider.

It’s no big secret that conservatives are hostile toward non-white motherhood, and want white women to have as many babies as possible. Conservatives have pushed for laws which, in violation of our own Constitution, would deny citizenship rights to children born in the U.S. by illegal immigrant parents. They’ve succeeded in “reforming” welfare, making it much more difficult for poor women (and disproportionately women of color) to survive and provide for their families — and they’ve even gone so far in some states to deny additional benefits to women who have children while on welfare, effectively coercing them into abortion. Conservative icon Ronald Reagan played on the racist ideology of the Welfare Queen in order to wage war against the poor — and the Welfare Queen was, without a doubt, a black woman. Black women are routinely blamed by conservatives for the dissolution of the black family, which, conservatives argue, is the primary cause of inner-city crime, gangs, teenage pregnancy, and on and on. It’s no surprise that the targeting of black women and “The Negro Family” began just as African-Americans achieved legal equality, and racist white conservatives needed another social justification for continuing to oppress them.

But these anti-choicers are trying to help black women, right? They can’t possibly be hostile towards black motherhood if they’re trying to convince black women to have more babies, right?

Wrong. The history of attempted state control over women’s reproduction is a long one, and one which has impacted women of all races — but black and brown women in particular have had their rights compromised and attacked in ways that white women and wealthier women simply haven’t had to face.

You’ll have to excuse my verbosity on this topic — I’m in the process of writing a massive paper (a thesis, essentially) about criminalizing drug addicts who give birth, and making an equal protection argument (among others) using an anti-subordination model, which argues that black women as a class have had their reproductive rights compromised for centuries, and that black motherhood has long been devalued and demonized. Now, the vast majority of women who are prosecuted for using drugs during their pregnancies are black and Latina, despite the fact that white women and women of color use drugs at roughly the same rates during pregnancy (with white women using them slightly more often). I argue that given the history of black motherhood and reproductive rights, there is a legitimate argument to be made that these cases infringe upon black women’s rights to equal protection under the law. Anyway, there are several other arguments against criminalizing drug-addicted pregnant women which I also make, but I think the equal protection one is the most interesting, as it requires us to really look at the history of race, gender and class-based oppression that black and Latina women have always faced in this country.

And that’s why the crisis pregnancy centers are troubling — not just because, from the outset, they’ve targeted white women and encouraged white women to give birth, but because they’re part of a broader movement which is fully and unapologetically about giving the state control over women’s reproduction. White women have been at the forefront of the movement to have the right to limit their own reproduction, and we’ve had the most success — see contraception, abortion, etc. But, while contraception and abortion are obviously valuable rights for everyone, women of color have also long been trying to assert their very basic right to have children. For a simple illustration of how the control of black women’s bodies has long been a part of black women’s experience in America, see this description, offered by professor Dorothy Roberts in a Harvard Law Review article:

The method of whipping pregnant slaves that was used throughout the South vividly illustrates the slaveowners’ dual interest in Black women as both workers and childbearers. Slaveowners forced women to lie face down in a depression in the ground while they were whipped. This procedure allowed the masters to protect the fetus while abusing the mother. It serves as a powerful metaphor for the evils of a fetal protection policy that denies the humanity of the mother. It is also a forceful symbol of the convergent oppressions inflicted on slave women: they were subjugated at once both as Blacks and as females.

The ideology which protects the fetus over the woman is, in a nutshell, what the “pro-life” movement is entirely about. And does the interest in workers and child-bearers sound familiar to anyone else?

Back to the crisis pregnancy centers:

The intensifying outreach to African Americans is not a coordinated strategy but a series of projects by independent ministries. Heartbeat focuses on steering one woman at a time away from abortion. The black activist group LEARN tries to rally political outrage by touring colleges with the Genocide Awareness Project — giant murals that juxtapose photos of aborted fetuses with images of slaughter in Rwanda.

I cringe whenever I hear abortion being compared to the Holocaust or the Rwandan genocide because of its blatantly racist connotations — that an embryo, a zygote, a fetus is the full moral equivalent of a Rwandan or a Jew or a Jehovah’s Witness or a gypsy or any of the other people who had families, homes, hopes, dreams, jobs, friends, lives and were systematically slaughtered. Abortion is not the same as killing 6 million Jews. It is not the same as killing nearly a million Tutsis and moderate Hutus in Rwanda. It is not the same as killing between 200,000 and 400,000 Sudanese and displacing 2.5 million more. It is not the same as killing 8,000 Bosnian people in Srebrenica (and killing 200,000 people, while raping or otherwise torturing tens of thousands).

Abortion is just not comparable. To argue otherwise is contemptible and revolting.

A single statistic underlies all these efforts: African Americans make up 13% of the population but account for 37% of all abortions in the United States, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

…and so the solution is to make it illegal for women to terminate their pregnancies.

It is indeed telling that African American women have a disproportionate number of abortions, and it’s not brain surgery to figure out what that statistic is saying. Just look at the reasons women give for abortion:

The reasons most frequently cited were that having a child would interfere with a woman’s education, work or ability to care for dependents (74%); that she could not afford a baby now (73%); and that she did not want to be a single mother or was having relationship problems (48%).

Three-quarters of women who terminate their pregnancies do so because of social and economic constraints. If anti-choicers, conservatives and Republicans are actually interested in decreasing the abortion rate and making it easier for women to choose birth, then they need to take a good hard look in the mirror and recognize that their social policies push women into making certain decisions. They might recognize that more women would be able to choose to have children if we actually did something about poverty, health care, the social safety net, access to education, childcare, etc etc.

But nah. Instead, we’ll just give women fewer choices, and force them to have children they can’t support and don’t want.

“When you go to African American communities — even myself, an African American woman — you’ll find they don’t trust pro-life people,” said Lillie Epps, a vice president of Care Net, which runs more than 1,000 suburban crisis pregnancy centers. “They look at us as a group who cares very little about what’s going on in the inner city, the poverty and all the other issues.”

Well I wonder why. Anti-choice conservatives don’t care about poverty or communities of color. They care about sexual and social control — after all, they aren’t lobbying Congress for universal health care or poverty relief or more public school funding, and they don’t even offer their own clients contraception or information about safer sex. They just tell them that they should abstain, give them a pack of diapers, and promise to help for the first year of the baby’s life — which means a couple bottles and some nappies.

In the last three years, Care Net has opened 19 urban antiabortion outposts — in Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, Houston and Indianapolis — and Epps hopes to set up centers soon in Los Angeles, Detroit, Philadelphia and Orlando, Fla. “But it’s been very tough,” Epps said.

“I’m just being honest with you. When they hear ‘pro-life,’ the first thing they think is ‘white Republican.’ “

And so we’re shocked to learn that black women, contrary to popular conservative belief, are not idiots.

I actually do like the idea of crisis pregnancy centers, it’s just a shame that in practice they’re so terrible. Low-income women who want to give birth should have a place to go where they can find social support, help in filling out applications for social aid, baby supplies, recommendations for doctors who accept Medicaid, etc. But they also need non-judgmental support for any choice they make and full information about their bodies, their pregnancies, and how to prevent unintended pregnancy in the future. They aren’t getting that at crisis pregnancy centers. They’re hustled in, tested for pregnancy, made to sit and watch an anti-abortion propaganda video while they wait, congratulated on their new baby, pushed to get an ultrasound, told lies about the supposed horrors of abortion (it causes breast cancer, you’ll be infertile, you could die, you will be depressed, you could commit suicide) handed some diapers, and told that they will absolutely be supported. But they won’t, and as soon as that pregnancy is over — or, at best, as soon as that cute little baby isn’t a cute little baby anymore — they’re on their own. I would love to see some of these centers (and there are thousands) dedicate their resources to supporting pregnant mothers without a judgmental, anti-sex agenda, and without lying. But that isn’t what they’re doing.

And there’s another racist and classist piece of this whole thing: Many of these centers are run by religious fundamentalists who believe that even contraception is a sin, and will only counsel women to abstain from sex until they’re married. Which presumes, basically, that poor women have less of a right to sex and sexual pleasure than their wealthier sisters.

Certainly, that was LaToya Yarbrough’s perception when she became pregnant six months after her first child was born out of wedlock.

Yarbrough, 28, had seen the ads promising help for crisis pregnancies, but those clinics were a long bus ride away, out in the suburbs. Plus, that was a white woman’s world, she thought; how could they understand?

“I had this view … that I’d be saying, ‘I can’t afford this, I can’t afford that’ and I’d be looking at [the counselor] and thinking, ‘You can, because you probably have a husband at home who’s a doctor or a lawyer,’ ” she said.

So Yarbrough started dialing abortion clinics. At one, a secretary sensed her despair and referred her to the Family Care Pregnancy Center, run by a black megachurch in south Dallas.

Kinda throws a wrench in the tired argument that abortion providers will push women into terminating their pregnancies, eh? No, this is what choice is about — but if a woman walked into a crisis pregnancy center and was adamant about terminating her pregnancy, you can bet they wouldn’t refer her to a local clinic. They will, however, tell her a whole bunch of lies:

Antiabortion activists are fighting back with their own appeals to black pride. In particular, they target Planned Parenthood’s founder, Margaret Sanger, as a racist intent on eliminating people of color. One popular flier — recently mailed to 10,000 homes in minority neighborhoods in Waco, Texas — declares, “Lynching is for amateurs” and compares “Klan Parenthood” clinics to Nazi death camps.

Sanger did associate with proponents of eugenics, the philosophy that only the most worthy should be allowed to reproduce. But she did not support coerced birth control; civil rights leaders, including King, embraced her work.

Of course, anti-choice religious nuts remain completely out of touch with the needs that communities of color identify for themselves:

In national surveys on race and politics, David Bositis asks blacks an open-ended question: Name your top three concerns for the country.

“I’ve done 15,000 interviews over the past 15 years, and I doubt if abortion has come up in five of them,” said Bositis, a senior analyst at the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies in Washington, D.C.

When he asks African American pastors, they talk about police brutality, elder care, jobs for released convicts. “Their agenda is not the same kind of moral agenda you often get with white churches,” Bositis said. “Abortion doesn’t show up.”

How much do you want to bet that police brutality, elder care and jobs for released convicts aren’t going to show up as talking points for the Moral Majority anywhere in the near future? When the right stops demonizing and marginalizing people of color for political gain, maybe I’ll believe that they care two bits for the rights and the lives of pregnant black women. Until then, I’m going to go with the conclusion that this is just one small part of a centuries-old pattern of attempts to control the reproductive rights of women in general, and women of color in particular.


68 thoughts on Anti-Choicers: Appealing to Black Women?

  1. What happens is that the anti-abortion folks (I was one, once) deliberately misrepresent the history of the birth control movement, conflating it with the brief and tawdry history of eugenics. Yes, a few supporters of Planned Parenthood (and its ancestor, Margaret Sanger’s Birth Control League) were racist eugenicists, but they were a minority and were quickly repudiated. Quoting Sanger and others out of context, anti-abortion activists try and create a false perception that Planned Parenthood and like-minded organizations were steeped in racist ideology about controlling non-white populations. And a lot of people end up buying the absurd lie of “Klan Parenthood” as a result.

  2. anti-abortion activists try and create a false perception that Planned Parenthood and like-minded organizations were steeped in racist ideology about controlling non-white populations. – Hugo

    And, as you point out, they do a darned good job of it. I know people who really, really should know better who buy into the whole “Sanger was a racist so the whole of the Birth Control movement is racist” narrative. Is there any readily-available well-researched, properly cited, from first hand sources, etc., material to debunk all of this crap that gets spewed?

  3. What’s interesting is that abortion opponents who refer to Sanger’s time as a eugenicist fail to note that she was an opponent of abortion during that entire time. Funny how they miss that.

  4. Funny how they miss that. – Amanda Marcotte

    Except, when they are trying to get feminists on board with anti-abortion legislation, in which case they’ll happily say things like “even Sanger was anti-abortion”.

  5. Margaret Sanger, as a racist intent on eliminating people of color

    Ah no, she was a racist white woman who used the populistic nature of an anti-black eugenics arguement to gain political support for abortion from the republicans and democrats.

    It was triangulaton of course, and of course it did enable the other more active racists who sterilised non-white women right into the 70’s by validating the core theories that justified the sterilisation of non-white women.

    However, the teensy tiny, itsy bitsy, eenie weenie little flaw in teh thinking is that, just because there’s a Kos (thought sanger was an activist and hence did stuff of use, while kos doesn’t) for every age, the people who are currently doing everything they can to kill non-white people DO NOT GET TO POINT TO SANGER AS A FIGURE OF RACISM, it’s like heat, you’re only to transfer the label of Truest Racist on to people who are MORE racist than you are, the racism transferrance doesn’t work in the other direction.

    an embryo, a zygote, a fetus is the full moral equivalent of a Rwandan or a Jew or a Jehovah’s Witness or a gypsy

    Are you lynching a catholic? (you forgot homosexuals and aryan women who used contraceptives btw – which is more apt imho)

  6. What’s interesting is that abortion opponents who refer to Sanger’s time as a eugenicist fail to note that she was an opponent of abortion during that entire time.

    Well she did use eugenics to justify eugenics at one point, but her thinking was that the reason why white people were in charge of everything was because they did practice… well planned parenthood – the upperclasses went to london for abortions before New York legalised it, and they had ready access to condoms (of course there was also the OTHER arguement that added that black women had less choice in when they had sex because you what black men are like, but let’s ignore that for a second) and so they were able to maintain family sizes which allowed them to be the upperclasses – so sanger argued that if the poor and the negros were allowed to engage in…. planned parenthood, they’d be better and then The Cosby Method (the process whereby ascension into the middle classes by the working classes will bring and end to all the world’s problems and everyone shall have a pony) would kick in, liberating the negro from their centuries of oppression and making all white people realise that black people are made of people.

    Which is technically a eugenicist’s arguement… but one of the least overtly racist ones – you really have to start looking at secondary effects of supporting that asinine theory of there being a “good” eugenics that would provide goodness (which was really popular in the 60’s and 70’s among the more politically abstract centrists) rather than the badness of genocide and segregation associated with “bad” eugenics and stuff before you find actual harm associated with it.

    And yes it required her being against the forced sterilisation of WOC.

  7. Yeah, I left a lot of groups off the list. Which is why I put “or any of the other people…”

    Yeah but the modern anti-choicers aren’t actively fighting to screw over jehovah’s witnesses and jews quite as overtly as they are homosexuals and women who use contraceptives.

  8. In the book “War Against the Weak” about the history of eugenics, the author noted that Margaret Sanger actually ruffled the feathers of a lot of contemporary eugenicists because she believed that women of the white, wealthy ruling class should have access to birth control, too. Most of the other eugenicists advocated pro-natalist policies for rich white women (and it’s not just about race, the forced sterilization case Buck v. Bell involved Carrie Buck, a poor white woman from the South), but sterilization for all others.

  9. “Which presumes, basically, that poor women have less of a right to sex and sexual pleasure than their wealthier sisters.”

    And that she and her husband will automatically be able to afford prenatal medical care and be able to support however many babies their no-contraceptive sex produces after the marriage.

    That’s what burns me up so much about the abstinence-only platform everybody and their state-funded brother seems to be pushing these days–it completely ignores the fact that there are precious few people, married or not, who can manage an enormous family either financially or emotionally. Abstinence-only doesn’t work for anybody, period, and they know it.

  10. Which presumes, basically, that poor women have less of a right to sex and sexual pleasure than their wealthier sisters.

    Actually, when you think about it, the whole rhetoric of “if you have sex, you must be willing to shoulder the responsibility of having a baby” is horribly classist (and de facto sexist) in this way: women who cannot afford babies are to be, in this framing, denied the pleasures of sex.

  11. I actually do like the idea of crisis pregnancy centers, it’s just a shame that in practice they’re so terrible.

    The only specific description of the experience of any “victim” of a CPC in the LA Times article was this:

    There, amid stacks of baby formula and booties, Yarbrough met other black women as afraid as she was — and black counselors determined to help them find a way to carry their pregnancies to term. She took free classes in prenatal care, child discipline, car-seat safety, spiritual growth. She picked out baby clothes from a closet of donated rompers. The center’s director, Jettie Johnson, recognized that Yarbrough was still suffering postpartum depression from the birth of her first son, Byron, and provided counseling.

    Yarbrough’s second son, Joshua, will turn 1 in May.

    Not quite the same as whipping pregnant slaves. The recent Time Magazine about CPCs also failed to identify any woman who had been harmed by one.

  12. I always wonder if these people simply think that black people have short memories, or don’t watch the news or something. Because when you get the same people who yap about welfare queens and black women breeding like rabbits turning around and trying to get support from those very same black women on reproductive issues, I have to wonder.

  13. I always wonder if these people simply think that black people have short memories – zuzu

    They don’t think that black people in particular have short memories. They think that everyone, regardless of race, has as short of a memory as they do (and they are too often right): after all, to turn, by making a converse, Santayana’s famous proscription into a prescription — if a reactionary wants to repeat the past, they better forget that past.

  14. it’s more of an outreach to white people though isn’t it? They’re not actually putting erzatz medical centers in black neighbourhoods, they’re just trying to stop black women from going to the handful of PP centers near them, and so they can say to their white guilt suffering flock (to whom, as tehy keep telling people, the word “racist” is more of an insult than being called “nigger” is for non-white people) “Black people love us.”

    Meanwhile, the maternal mortality rate is still three times higher for black women than white women…

  15. it’s more of an outreach to white people though isn’t it?

    That’s an interesting take on it. My own conclusion has been that they aren’t trying to rally the support of black women or white people, but that of black men. Black men feel horribly emasculated by their station in life and it is only exacerbated by the existence of black “welfare queens” (read: women, with children no less, free of male headship) and other uppity (read: educated, employed, and/or otherwise self-sufficient) female types. (Well, that and the fact that white women (WOMEN, I SAY) generally hold a place of higher social esteem than they do; for them, this is harder to deal with than white male domination, but that’s another thread.)

    But what these sorts of campaigns do is point out an obvious injustice, say genocide, in order to appeal to a sense of paternalism in black men. “If genocide against black people is wrong when white people do it,” they seem to say, “why should it be OK if black women are committing it?” This energizes black men by reminding them that they are responsible for black “life,” born or not, in the same way that white “life” is the concern of the white patriarch. If you can’t persuade black women to carry fetuses to term by lying to them (and, clearly, if black fetuses make up 37% of American abortions, black women are not deterred by the lies about breast cancer and sterility), your next best bet is to have their MAYUN lean on them about it, in the interests of keeping them from being race traitors, naturally.

    I’ve come to this conclusion because, anecdotally, I’ve never heard a black woman pontificate about how abortion is some genocide foisted upon blacks by white people. I’ve only ever heard that crap from black men. If these people don’t have black men in mind when they go on these crusades, maybe they should, because black men seem to be the only ones embracing it.

  16. Not quite the same as whipping pregnant slaves. The recent Time Magazine about CPCs also failed to identify any woman who had been harmed by one.

    I never argued that all women are hurt by CPCs (I’ll leave that to the anti-choicers to claim about abortion clinics). Of course there are women who they help. The woman in the LA Times article clearly wanted to give birth — she even called an abortion clinic and her desire to have the child was so apparent that she was recommended a CPC.

    I would have less of an issue with CPCs if they either offered a fuller array of choices (including contraception), if they didn’t tell women lies, and/or if they were completely up front about the services they offer. If they clearly told potential clients that they are Evangelical Christians who are anti-abortion and anti-contraception and who will try to convert you, and if they didn’t attempt to advertise in the “Abortion” section of the Yellowpages, I’d have less of an issue.

    Of course they’ve helped religious women who wanted to give birth. But they have done plenty of harm to other women. Further, they present themselves as medical facilities offering pregnancy tests and ultrasounds when they just aren’t. The pregnancy tests they use can be bought at a drugstore. One of their tactics is to avoid mentioning that they don’t offer abortions, and keep the women calling or coming back until it’s too late for them to terminate their pregnancies. They tell women that it’s dangerous to terminate before 12 weeks, fully aware that after 12 weeks abortion becomes much more expensive, and finding a provider is much more difficult. Their staffs are not properly trained to give ultrasounds. This is especially problematic for uninsured low-income women who lack access to prenatal care. They may believe that the ultrasound they receive at a CPC is being evaluated by someone halfway competent, and will assume that if there was a problem with the pregnancy, it would be identified. Of course, CPC workers are not trained to read ultrasounds, other than saying, “there’s your baby!”

    They also don’t quite offer the basic services they claim to — baby stuff, food, financial aid, etc — for free. Many of them require the women they “help” to attend workshops about the Bible, abstinence, Godly womanhood, etc in order to get vouchers which they can exchange for things like maternity and baby clothes. (Don’t believe me? They say so themselves).

    Here are a few things to read about how these centers mislead and flat-out lie to women, often at the expense of their health.

  17. When I made an appointment for an abortion, the receptionist gave me a detailed description of the building in addition to the name and address of the clinic. I thought nothing of it and didn’t pass the description on to my friend who was meeting me there to drive me home. She ended up at the very-similarly-named “clinic” next door.

    Apparently when she entered there were a group of prim, middle-aged women drinking tea. She immediately knew she was in the wrong place, turned around, and left. The women looked up at her but said nothing. I think they were shocked into silence by the unexpected presence of a very butch dyke.

  18. The recent Time Magazine about CPCs also failed to identify any woman who had been harmed by one.

    CPC aren’t medical clinics. They can’t provide any medical care and therefore have no opportunity to commit malpractice or directly injure people. Unless they actually physically assault her or maybe accidently hit her over the head with an ultrasound. The injury comes when they pursuade women through coercion and lies to continue a pregnancy, which is, at baseline, 10X more dangerous than having an abortion. The risk increases with a number of medical conditions, including venous thromboembolus, pulmonary hypertension, diabetes, and various cancers. But, of course, these women die and become debilitated far away from the CPC that was the original source of the damage, so they can pretend that their hands are clean.

  19. The injury comes when they pursuade women through coercion and lies to continue a pregnancy, which is, at baseline, 10X more dangerous than having an abortion.

    Many doctors *have* been sued for much less.

  20. Jill,

    I see no demonstration in any of your links that a specific, identifiable woman has been harmed by a CPC. With thousands of centers all over the country, you’d think we’d find at least one actual victim’s name. All I see are allegations of “lies” and “deception,” but no injury. Planned Parenthood tells its shares of fibs (they must — they employ clergy, don’t they?) but I don’t think you’d hold that against them unless you thought the lies were harming someone.

    Reviewing your links in order:

    (1) “How They Deceive Woman” etc. by Linda Flores of the Revolutionary Communist Party USA. Flores talks about her undercover visit to a CPC and the “deadly lies and misinformation” it spread, but identified no dead body. She complains that Focus on the Family is a “Christian fascist organization” for spending $1.2 million on ultrasound machines to “trick” women into giving birth, but doesn’t describe any activity ordinarily associated with fascism (violence, murder etc.).

    (2) “Giving Women What They Deserve” by a Quaker pastor. She describes “nice Christian ladies” who gave her a pregnancy test at a CPC and then begged her not to get an abortion, which she didn’t. Apparently one of them temporarily “blocked her way to the door” to try to show her a film, but she “escaped.” She doesn’t claim that she was harmed by what couldn’t have been more than a fifteen minute encounter, or identify any other woman who was harmed. Moreover, her own career is devoted to using her “degree in Counseling Psychology [earned] at an evangelical Christian seminary” to counsel women regarding abortion.

    (3) “In Bad Faith”, a description of a documentary on CPCs by Sunny Chapman. The only “victim” named is “Katy,” now a 26 year old artist and teacher who spent an hour or so at a CPC as a pregnant teen and was a shown disgusting gory video and offered clothing, diapers and crib if she gave birth. “Katy” does not claim she was harmed by the experience.

    (4) “New War on Abortion” by Emily J. Minor. The only “victim” in the article is Allyson Kirk, who called the National Abortion Federation but somehow walked into a CPC, which she figured out after they showed her a video. Harm?

    (4) Daily Kos piece about Planned Parenthood’s fraudulent fundraising campaign in favor of the doomed anti-CPC legislation that even the ACLU withdrew from supporting because of free speech concerns. No victim or harm identified, other than the unnamed teen in PP’s largely discredited e-mail anecdote (who figured out she was in a CPC after a few minutes and went ahead to have an abortion).

    (5) Amanda Marcotte’s AlterNet piece about CPCs. Although I know Ms. Marcotte to be incapable of any form of deception or inaccuracy, the article merely repeats allegations of CPC lies (including the Planned Parenthood anecdote) without naming a single victim.

    Ordinary, when article are written about hazards such as defective products, cigarettes, contaminated food, dangerous hospitals or other facilities, countless names of the wounded, dying and dead are provided. I haven’t seen this yet with CPCs. Rather, there’s a lot of speculation about how women might be harmed, without any proof than someone has been harmed. The “victims,” at worst, are women who spent a few minutes being irritated by a CPC in the way they might be by reading a blog with which they disagreed. I don’t see how this a whole lot different from a couple walking into a Planned Parenthood and getting annoyed because based upon its named they thought the organization orimarily arranged adoptions rather than abortions.

  21. I see no demonstration in any of your links that a specific, identifiable woman has been harmed by a CPC.

    that because, being Good and all, we’re not actually allowed to throw trumped up pedophilia charges at featal ensoulment testing centers (“Let me just wind up the kurlian lenses on my ultrasound equipment… ah yes, you can see the little sweetum’s vajra chakra! see! And congratulations, it’s gonna be a bouncing baby bodisvatha!”) so that we can illegally obtain confidential medical data for the reason of naming and shaming women who have gone to such centers.

    HOWEVER, your arguement is, rather impressively based on the supposition that even though Uterinal Voyeur Centers give dangerous and potentionally fatal erroneous medical advice to women who come to them for help, which is about 18 guzzillion types of wrong on just so many different and impressive levels, that we should illegally obtain confidential medical records of the women who go there, just to prove the point that if you give dangerously misleading medical advice to women who are pregnant, they will come to harm if they actually follow that dangerously misleading advice.

    Okay, do you know what, that’s not even a fucking viewpoint, that’s like saying that santa claus exists because no one can provide video evidence that it’s actually your parents leaving presents under the christmas when you go sleep – never mind that reindeers can’t fly, that if they could, they’d have to move faster than the speed of light to make their rounds on christmas eve, or that he’d need a sack with an internal diameter equal to the width of one of the great lakes to fit all the presents in it, oh no, the issue you have is that people can’t provide video taped fucking evidence of santa not coming down the chimney.

    The “victims,” at worst, are women who spent a few minutes being irritated by a CPC

    AND THEN BEING SERIOUSLY HARMED DURING THE PREGNANCY THEY HAVE TO GO THROUGH WITH BECAUSE THEY FOLLOWED THE CPC’S ADVICE NOT TO HAVE AN ABORTION DURING THE PERIOD WHEN IT WAS LEGAL TO DO SO!

    FUCKING READ STUFF YOU FUCKWIT! Don’t fucking ignore it and then ask questions that have already been fucking well answered!

  22. What R. Mildred said. Plus, you’re creating a nearly impossible burden of proof. You want me to show that CPCs harmed someone. When I put forward examples of women who felt lied to, manipulated and generally fucked with by CPCs, you say it’s not enough, and that it’s just momentary irritation. What do you want me to provide? An example of a woman who wanted to have an abortion, was mislead by a CPC, had the child and then regretted it? There are tons of women who regret childbirth, but it’s not exactly socially acceptable to say so. While the anti-abortion movement embraces abortion regret, they ignore women who regret childbirth, or regret putting their child up for adoption. Those women can’t even speak without the risk of being labeled bad mothers and generally awful people. Further, while CPCs and other anti-choice groups label depression after abortion as evidence of “regret” and the “damage” that abortion does to women, they don’t label post-partum depression as evidence of regret or damage after having a baby. Post-partum depression is a whole lot more common (and statistically more likely) than depression after abortion. So, if I were to use the same arguments that anti-choicers use, I could say that any woman who experiences post-partum depression after being convinced by a CPC to carry to term has been harmed by them.

  23. Also what I pointed out in the post. Low-income women can interpret the CPC ultrasound to count as adequate medical care. If I went to a center that claimed to specialize in pregnancy, and they gave me an ultrasound and congratulated me on my baby, I would probably assume that they knew how to read the ultrasound and this means that everything is fine. Why, then, would I pay to go see a doctor for the same thing, especially if money is very limited?

    CPCs are lucky if so far, no woman has died or been physically injured because of their incompetence. When it does — and it will, if it hasn’t already — I hope they get the shit sued out of them.

  24. recommendations for doctors who accept Medicaid,

    minor point, but i wanted to make it because i don’t know whether a lot of people know this.

    if you’re talking about abortion, pretty much no doctors “accept” medicaid. so far from what i’ve seen medicaid flat out doesn’t cover abortions, even when it comes to the “exception” cases under the hyde amendment (incest, rape, life/health of the mother, possibly fetal anomaly but i forget). providers don’t even bother trying to bill, not even in those instances, because it’s a waste of effort and staff. some places do offer “medicaid discounts”, though, but that’s entirely a private subsidy out of the provider’s own funds and is never reimbursed by the govt. this week at my clinic we have a couple coming in to terminate a pregnancy with serious fetal anomalies, and they have called a dozen times to tell us that medicaid told them it would be covered and will it be free; and we know that it won’t be covered. in the past we have even had medicaid call us up to tell us “we just want to let you know this patient will be covered by us” and then never reimburse. wtf, you know? anyway, just thought i’d tell anybody who’s interested.

  25. AND, speaking of CPCs and free ultrasounds — a lot of women go to CPCs first, to figure out whether they are pregnant in the first place, or how far along they are if they’re considering abortion. then they call us, tell us they are like say 17 weeks, we tell them the price is going to be idunno 1500 bucks or more and it’s a two-day procedure, then they (or at least the ones who can get the money together and take off two days of work and find a driver/”chaperone” for both days etc etc) come in and hey!, they’re only like 14 weeks, the center lied to them to make it more difficult to get an abortion! hooray! some of these women even come from other states because they believe they are past the x-week cutoff in their home state. so now when someone calls and tells me with certainty that they are a certain number of weeks i ask if they know that from a sonogram, and where the sonogram was done. assholes. barg.

  26. f you’re talking about abortion, pretty much no doctors “accept” medicaid. so far from what i’ve seen medicaid flat out doesn’t cover abortions, even when it comes to the “exception” cases under the hyde amendment

    No, I was talking about pregnancy costs like pre-natal care. I was referring to ways that CPCs could actually make things easier on women who choose to give birth.

    But some state Medicaid programs do cover abortion, even if federal programs don’t. New York, for example, offers emergency medicaid to terminate pregnancies.

  27. Apparently one of them temporarily “blocked her way to the door” to try to show her a film,

    Huh? Isn’t physically preventing someone from leaving a) against the law unless you’re the state and the person has been duly convicted of a crime and b) considered damaging to that person? I seem to remember some unpleasantness 150 or so years ago concerning the question of whether or not some people could force other people to be in certain places and do certain things…but I could be wrong. Maybe that little squabble was just about state’s rights after all.

  28. Raving Atheist: Here’s a victim for you. No names, since both parties are juveniles.

    http://www.alternet.org/rights/31199/

    “The physical tragedies we are witnessing due to the return of illegal abortion are compounded by the social ones. Recently, two teenage couples, one in Michigan and the other in Texas, faced unwanted pregnancies. Both states have parental consent provisions; in both cases, the young couples received misleading information (in one instance from an anti-abortion “Crisis Pregnancy Center;” in the other, from a private physician’s office) about how to obtain a legal abortion. In Michigan, the young man, with his girlfriend’s approval, hit her abdomen repeatedly with a baseball bat until she miscarried.” The kicker? His sentence was to volunteer at a CPC.

    In review: CPC lies to young couple, telling them that she cannot get an abortion when in fact she can. Couple becomes desperate, and takes matters into their own hands. Or is having the shit beaten out of you with a baseball bat not harmful?

  29. jill — that’s true; new york and california are the two i can think of (but i think they maybe have some name other than “medicaid”?), and i am pretty sure that 30-35 explicitly prohibit it, so i’m not sure about the other 15-20ish.

    on the other hand when people come from out of state to my clinic, even when they have state medicaid-type coverage for abortion in their home states which OUGHT to travel with them like other state health programs do (e.g. they are students living away from home or they are beyond their home state’s gestation-age limit), it is a nightmare to file with their home states and does not result in reimbursement.

    on the topic of federal medicaid, though, the clinic is preparing a lawsuit against them over the past cases when we did go to the trouble of filing everything according to medicaid demands and no payment was made.

    again, all of this is kind of fyi in case anyone wanted details. the hyde amendment is basically a human rights violation, imo.

  30. You’re totally right, Roula. The Hyde Amendment is atrocious. And thanks for sharing this information — I hadn’t realized the extent to which the government refuses to help women through medicaid, even when they qualify under federal law.

  31. and for the record, i am not saying that ny and ca are necessarily all-out anti-choice states, and i have heard from a few clients who live there that “my other abortion, which i had back home, WAS free”. so i think in those states (and maybe this holds true at the fed level too) it’s not purely anti-choice sentiment but the combination of not wanting to waste money on poor people and knowing that you probably won’t get called on it.

    btw this year is the 30th anniversary of the hyde amendment. if anyone’s interested in joining the effort to repeal it there are a lot of groups trying to publicize opposition to it, just google.

    ok sorry for making five comments about one small part of the post, which was really good as a whole as well. bedtime now so i can wake up at the buttcrack of dawn to help cranky women exercise choice!

  32. CPCs have been around for 40 years and there are now approximately 4,000 in America. Yet still not a single name of a victim – just speculation that someone has been harmed by lies. When the scientific method is applied to identify victims in other contexts, we find hundreds and thousands of names:

    Vietnam War Veterans Memorial (58,000+ names).

    September 11, 2001 Victims (approx. 3,000)

    Women Killed by Legal Abortion (partial list of approx. 200)

    Children Drowning in Swimming Pools (plenty; just search Google news for swimming + pool + drowned every few days)

    Honestly, if they actually exist it can’t be that hard to find women willing to say that (1) they suffered physical injury from following a CPCs advice to go ahead with a pregnancy or (2) absent physical injury, still wished they had aborted rather than becoming burdened with a child due to CPC coercion. If you’re propounding a theory that CPCs are a terrible, dangerous national scourge you can’t claim there’s plenty of evidence but then turn around and say all the victims are remaining quiet because of social pressure (especially with NARAL constantly touting America’s “pro-choice majority” and Ms. Magazine publishing We Had Abortions petitions). Is there any scientific study – ever — that reached a definitive conclusion but then qualified it with “however, there’s not a single concrete example of what we’ve claimed to prove”?

    R. Mildred, go to YouTube and I’m sure you’ll find plenty of video of parents putting presents under Christmas trees. However, the equivalent of the CPC-harmed woman (harmed with “fatal erroneous advice”, no less) in your analogy is Santa Claus. You’ve claimed her existence, not me. And I’m not even asking for a video, just a name. Open the newspaper any day and you’ll find countless names of people who assert they’ve been harmed by lying car dealers, electronics store salesmen, home repair contractors and mortgage brokers. If you think the burden of proof is impossible in the CPC context, maybe it’s because there is no proof.

    Zuzu, when people express pro-choice views, you do you ask them how their conversion to liberal/moderate Christianity or reform Judaism is going?

  33. CPCs are lucky if so far, no woman has died or been physically injured because of their incompetence. When it does — and it will, if it hasn’t already — I hope they get the shit sued out of them.

    I wonder if Jill feels the same way about the Metropolitan Medical Associates. You know, that absolutely filthy abortion clinic in Englewood, New Jersey which has been shut down for weeks because of unsanitary conditions (including rusty crotchet hooks used to remove IUDs) and is currently being sued by a woman they put in a coma for around a month.

    What Jill is so great at is the generalizations. She has the story of one abortion clinic worker who referred a woman to a CPC and this somehow proves that any story about an abortion clinics pushing women into getting abortions is false. Or her generalized view of CPCs which is based on a few articles in newspapers and information on pro-choice web sites. What’s funny about some pro-choicers is they think all CPCs are alike when I’d guess you could go to 5 different CPCs and they would differ dramatically in what services they provide and how they provide them. Plus, from my experience with CPCs the majority of clients aren’t abortion-minded.

    Many of these centers are run by religious fundamentalists who believe that even contraception is a sin, and will only counsel women to abstain from sex until they’re married. Which presumes, basically, that poor women have less of a right to sex and sexual pleasure than their wealthier sisters.

    This is absolute jibberish. What does advocating abstinence until marriage have to do with whether poor women have a right to sex? Advocates of abstinence until marriage would encourage rich, single women not to have sex until they’re married while they wouldn’t have any kind of problem with poor married women having sex. But I guess when your whole thought system is based on putting ridiculous women-hating motives on people you disagree with, you’re likely to have to come up with silly, irrational arguments like this.

    Bridgetka,
    The baseball bat was one of those mini-souvenir bats. The beatings were at the request of the mother. While getting hit in the stomach with a miniature baseball bat may have hurt the mother, it killed the child. This alternet article is the first time I’ve heard of that couple getting misleading information from a CPC which makes me wonder if that claim is true.

  34. Jivin J, it’s quite interesting you should have such detailed information about the temporary closure of Metropolitan Medical Associates when the state hasn’t released a detailed list of violations because they need to give the clinic time to respond and the state has to issue a final report.

    I’m sure that the sources who told you about the rusty crochet hook are one thousand percent reliable.

  35. I wonder if Jill feels the same way about the Metropolitan Medical Associates. You know, that absolutely filthy abortion clinic in Englewood, New Jersey which has been shut down for weeks because of unsanitary conditions (including rusty crotchet hooks used to remove IUDs) and is currently being sued by a woman they put in a coma for around a month.

    If an abortion provider violates standard medical practice and injures someone, of course I think they should be held accountable, just like any other health care provider.

    This is absolute jibberish. What does advocating abstinence until marriage have to do with whether poor women have a right to sex?

    Because rich women can generally afford to have more children than poor women. If you’re anti-contraception, you’re expected to abstain even in marriage if you don’t want to get pregnant. Rich women can have more sex because they can afford the risk of having more kids.

  36. If an abortion provider violates standard medical practice and injures someone, of course I think they should be held accountable, just like any other health care provider.

    Speaking of which, are CPCs regulated by the state in any manner?

  37. Oops. I should google before asking silly questions. The answer is no, CPCs are not regulated by the state, at least in New York. However, a number of them are getting into trouble for implying that they are medical facilities and not disclosing that what they are offering is basically an over the counter test. So maybe women in NY at least will start getting more accurate information about what CPCs are–and aren’t–soon.

  38. Jivin’ J: Raving Sperm Magic Atheist wanted to know if anyone had every been demonstrably hurt by a CPC. I showed him someone who was.

    http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS207US207&q=michigan+teen+crisis+pregnancy+center+boyfriend+baseball+bat

    Lots of news outlets covered it, including the Detroit News, which I’m sure is just a tool of the liberal media. However, even Care Net acknowledges it happened, so there you go.

  39. Zuzu, when people express pro-choice views, you do you ask them how their conversion to liberal/moderate Christianity or reform Judaism is going?

    No, just you, since all the signs of conversion are obvious.

  40. Raving Sperm Magic Atheist wanted to know if anyone had every been demonstrably hurt by a CPC. I showed him someone who was.

    Bridgetka,

    What you showed was someone who consented to let her boyfriend kill her baby with a basebsll bat. There’s no evidence that a CPC advised them to do that. I think you’re confused about the facts — the judge ordered the boy to volunteer at a CPC after the crime was committed. So the CPC wasn’t remotely involved in the incident.

  41. whatever happened to those three teenage girls who ran away from that residential CPC in utah? i would say that being held against one’s will, forced to give birth and forced to give the resulting child up for adoption would be pretty damaging, no? since, apparently, being misled and given inaccurate medical information by people misrepresenting themselves as medical professionals is not sufficient damage.

    (certainly more damaging than RA having the Unquestionable Right of His Sperm Magic thwarted by Teh Ebil Walking Uterii.)

  42. whatever happened to those three teenage girls who ran away from that residential CPC in utah?

    Whatever happened to their names, kidlacan? You don’t supply them. I assume that since they ran away, they all got abortions so that most of your hypothetical did not occur. But assuming they did give birth and gave the kids up for adoption, what’s your basis for saying they’re worse off than if they had aborted? So judgmental.

    (P.S. Being held against one’s will isn’t “harm” in the context of a teenage minor — it’s usual condition. Runaways can be legally captured, returned to their parents, forced to attend school and participate in often painful and humilitating physical activities such as gym).

  43. They were minors, RA. Their names were not released.

    But of course you know that.

    As for whether they got abortions, we don’t know because only one of the girls has been found, and police aren’t releasing any details because she’s a juvenile. Of course, since they’re minors, it’s not exactly a given that they can actually obtain abortions without parental consent. Or money.

    (P.S. Being held against one’s will isn’t “harm” in the context of a teenage minor — it’s usual condition. Runaways can be legally captured, returned to their parents, forced to attend school and participate in often painful and humilitating physical activities such as gym).

    Please enlighten us, what is the legal basis for holding a teenager in a maternity home against her will?

  44. They were minors, RA. Their names were not released.

    But of course you know that.

    Given Kidlacan’s sketchy description of the incident I didn’t even know they were accused of a crime, which I presume is the reason their names were withheld by the authorities. Not that there’s any legal prohibition against a newspaper publishing the names of minors accused of a crime, if they have them. And of course there are countless news stories providing the names of teenagers who, having committed crimes, are on the run. But of course you knew that.

    Please enlighten us, what is the legal basis for holding a teenager in a maternity home against her will?

    The same basis a parent can keep a minor at home, and have her returned if she runs away. The same basis a minor can be forced against her will to attend a public school. Or a private religious school, and be required to pray six hours a day. I presume it’s the same basis, as you point out, that the parents can withhold the abortion consent (or impregnation consent, for that matter). They’re minors.

    The girls in this case whacked the group home director on the head with a frying pan, tied her up with power cords, and fled in a stolen minivan. I assume they would have done this to whomever was exercising custody over them, and it’s not at all clear from the story that their conduct was related to them wanting abortions. Plainly, they didn’t want anyone exercising custody over them — and were sent there because of problems with drugs and friends — but as noted, minors simply don’t have the right to run around unsupervised. I think you’d agreed with me if the story was about three girls who whacked and tied up their gym teacher, even if she made them do jumping jacks.

  45. RA – according to the owners of that home, they’d “helped” about twenty girls since opening their doors, and they offered $500 kickbacks to adoption placement agencies who took the children birthed by the girls. the three who made the news were the first, evidently, to ever run away. or to succeed in the attempt, at least. it’s not like such places operate with any oversight. if the girls weren’t allowed to leave at will, what makes you think they’d be allowed to have any say over other aspects of their care, or to have any choice in the eventual adoption process?

    i also might add that i can’t imagine how a gym class could possibly ever be considered a trauma equal to being forced to give birth, or equal to giving birth willingly and then being made to give up the child. and i loathed gym class with the fire of a thousand burning suns. kudos on the breathtaking callousness, there.

  46. Apparently, according to Raving Atheist, you’re only harmed by something if it ends up killing you. Otherwise, y’know, it’s just an annoyance.

    Lying to someone, especially about matters concerning their health, is harm. Coercion in any form is harm. Doing everything in your power to prevent women from aborting – when they all have good reason to* – is harm. HOW MUCH CLEARER NEED WE BE?

    *The good reason every woman seeking an abortion has? Pregnancy, even “low-risk” pregnancy, is fucking dangerous.

    Ahem. Excuse the language.

  47. If two people have sex without effective birth control, a pregnancy could be the result…. People know that, but alas…………….

    REASONS GIVEN FOR ABORTIONS: AGI SURVEY, 2000-2001 [8]

    Reason or situation…….number……% of abortions

    not using contraception…..4,957 ………..46.40
    forced to have relations……~64 …………0.6
    using contraception………5,726…………53.60
    contraceptive failed…….~1,808…………16.9
    (despite proper use)

    ………………total….10,683………..100

    http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

    Among women who had an unintended pregnancy in 2001,

    52% had not been using a method during the month of conception.

    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/psrh/full/3904807.pdf

    If only people would choose to use an effective birth control,
    (or two).

    They wouldn’t have to make another choice……..

    http://www.sexual-health-resource.org/hormonal_birth_control.htm

    Cash payments for using birth control…………..

    http://serr8d.blogspot.com/2007/02/project-preventionthe-road-as-opposed.html

    I know their are a number of people who can’t use birth control for one reason or another.

    But is that true for all types of birth control,
    there are many different types to choose from,
    surely one to suite most every-one.

    I would suggest that the number of people that can’t use any of them at all would be very small

    but many use this as their reason.

  48. hey bruce? what with insurance companies refusing to cover birth control, with medicaid policy changes that jack up prices for previously-discounted HBC at Planned Parenthoods and college health centres, and with legal concessions to the drug companies that let them charge obscene rates for their wares, not all people can afford birth control. and with faith-based all-abstinence sex-ed classes, lots of kids grow up without understanding the benefits of birth control. and because doctors themselves can be ill-informed, not all people know about birth control options that might work for them if one or two methods haven’t worked. and not all people can afford to even go to a doctor to learn about birth control. and i could go on. do you need me to go on?

    your last link, Project Prevention, has already been mentioned on this blog, and the link itself outlines the reason it’s a fucking distasteful idea. even the wording in the damn link seethes with hatred for the people this program is supposed to be “helping.” did you even read that link? “look, addict scum who should never be allowed to reproduce! let’s bribe them into sterilisation! they’re so ‘far gone’ they should never ever be allowed to have kids!” frankly, i would have LOVED a cash bonus for getting an IUD, but since i don’t meet the “criteria” (i.e., i’m white, and we all know how popular those white babies are on the adoption market), i had to pay out of my OWN pocket for the thing.

    if someone proposed opening up the program, that might make it marginally less coercive. but of course no one’s going to do that, even if it would stop women like me from killing our omg so precious baybeez — or, more accurately, help us afford the birth control that would keep us from needing abortions in the first damn place.

    speaking of the baybeez, even if more people have more access to birth control, it still does fail, and that means abortion is still a necessary backup. your table shows that more abortions happen after birth control failure than happen with no birth control at all, if i’m reading it right.

  49. RA, google is your friend. apologies for not providing a link for your convenience, but the story had been discussed on this and other feminist blogs, and in some news outlets as well, so i assumed familiarity. (judging by your blog itself, though, you’ve been too busy stalking amanda marcotte to, you know, learn stuff.)

    they wouldn’t have been sent to that particular home because of “problems with drugs and friends”. that particular home was for the bad pregnant girls. frankly, i have a problem with the places for “problems with drugs and friends”, too — at least when they’re run without oversight, as so many are. kids have been beaten and have died in those places, many run offshore for maximum under-the-radar profitmaking. but this home was strictly for girls who were pregnant, and gee, those places worked out so well for so many back in the ’50s.

  50. kidlacan…
    Yes I did read that link…..and I would love to find a better one but you must admit it is a good Idea……I would also like to see it open to anyone interested….I especially liked the tubal ligation option….this would be great for anyone who already has all the children they want….saving them a lot of time, effort and money on abortions.

  51. I would love to find a better one but you must admit it is a good Idea

    Um, no you don’t. Not when it’s a coercive, terrible idea, especially placed in context. The women sterilized by Project Prevention are disproportionately women of color (this is according to their own statistics). Given the long history of forced, coerced and non-consensual sterilizations that black and Latina women in the United States have faced, I’d say that this is a terrible idea, and thinly veiled racism. Google articles about this program, and see how its founder refers to drug-addicted women as animals who have “litters” of children. There’s a lot of thinly-veiled racism here. Putting up signs around black neighborhoods with slogans like, “Don’t let a child ruin your high” and offering drug addicts more money for drugs in exchange for their reproduction is abhorrent. I wonder about the moral compass of anyone who thinks this is a good idea.

  52. Actually, I’ve done quite a bit of research on this subject, and it’s pretty clear that lack of pre-natal care, proper nutrition and health care are the primary causes of developmental issues in so-called “crack babies.” Drug exposure obviously isn’t good for fetuses, but it does not cause all the kinds of problems that it has been hyped to. Universal health care and compassionate assistance for drug addicts would go a lot further than punitive punishments or giving them more drug money.

    If drug-addicted women wish to be permanently sterilized or go on long-term birth control, that’s their choice. But it should not be coerced. It should, in my ideal world, be free and accessible for them and all women to prevent pregnancy, but you’ll have to take that up with pro-life Republicans.

  53. …coffee and red wine.

    I don’t get it. Was that supposed to imply that because I think women should only be sterilized non-coercively and because I’ve researched the effects of drug addiction on fetuses (which, if you actually read the post, you’ll see is relevant to my legal studies) that I must be a drug user myself? And I supposed I must also be getting repeatedly pregnant and alternating between having abortions and birthing drug-addicted infants, just for fun, right?

    You’ve really got my number.

  54. I’ve actually dumped a few of Bluey’s comments out of the mod queue for being stupid, pointless and inflammatory. IOW, there’s no reason you should get it.

  55. Really? I thought it was more a comment on the wildly pretentious, sanctimonious “Raving Atheist” moniker.

  56. Oh, hey, I should refresh the page when it’s been open for a day before I post comments.

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