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Yay, another book telling women they don’t really want sex

Denise passed along this Dan Savage column about a new book that, from the looks of it, suffers from Dawn Eden Syndrome: the tendency of an author to generalize from her own experience to make definitive declarations about what all women must be like — declarations that just happen to fit the thesis of her book.

Here’s the question:

Longtime reader with a vanilla question: What to do about differing libidos? We’re a straight couple together 20-plus years, and we’ve aged well. No weight gain, no radical changes in appearance. We are open and loving, and I am cognizant of her needs and feelings. Yesterday, I read an interview with Joan Sewell, author of I’d Rather Eat Chocolate: Learning to Love My Low Libido, and handed it to my wife and observed that this is the new ideal: women laughing at their male partners and shrugging their shoulders about women’s general lack of desire. My spouse can now point at this book and say, “You see, I’m normal, and so are all of my friends, ha ha ha, live with it…”

While I want sex daily, I get it maybe five to 20 times a year—and I am lucky compared to some straight married men! Where are the women you hear about who want sex constantly?

Not Giving Up

Savage’s reply is appropriately snarky:

I haven’t had a chance to read Ms. Sewell’s book, NGU, but I devoured Sandra Tsing Loh’s review of I’d Rather Eat Chocolate in the current Atlantic Monthly. (Loh’s book reviews are worth the price of a subscription.) And I’m saddened to report that, according to Sewell and Loh, there’s no such thing as a woman who wants sex constantly. They don’t exist—never did.

All that yammering about women with voracious sexual appetites during Sex And The City‘s long reign of terror? A cruel hoax. A figment of the straight-male imagination, a Big Lie picked up on and promoted by self-serving female “sexperts” eager to tell straight men what they wanted to hear. Women have naturally lower sex drives, Sewell writes. It’s a hormonal thing. Testosterone makes humans horny, men have lots more than women, so men are hornier—and all the Sex And The City repeats in the world aren’t going to change that.

Isn’t it funny how what “women” are like changes from book contract to book contract? Savage’s description of Loh’s review indicates that she’s bought into the premise of the book, that women are just hard-wired to not want sex very often and, in fact, would rather have chocolate.

Sounds like a Cathy cartoon come to life.

Loh even uses a lesbian couple’s pizza night as evidence that women, left to their own devices and free from the sexual demands of men, will choose carbs over sex.

Sigh. Could anything be more stereotypical?

Back to Savage and the snark:

So the jig is up, NGU. For a while, women with high libidos were normal, and women with low libidos were freakish. Now women with low libidos can hand their husbands Sewell’s book and rip open a bag of Doritos.

And French women don’t get fat! Well, except when they do. Uhh… he’s not that into you?

As Savage is quite aware, basing one’s idea of what’s “normal” on the latest thing coming out of Barnes & Noble is, well, kind of stupid. Because human beings are a lot more complex than all that, and no one theory is going to cover the sexual drives of all women or all men.

But maybe the reason that women’s libidos are so subject to fashionable theories is that there’s almost no way to know what really is “normal,” since women’s sexuality has been so controlled, constrained, shamed, driven underground, and, paradoxically, encouraged for public performance that a lot of women don’t really know what their baseline really is. But one thing that we do know (though Savage doesn’t seem to credit it) is that stress affects women’s ability to enjoy sex. And what’s a major source of stress?

But there’s a silver lining, NGU. Back when women with low libidos were regarded as abnormal—way back at the beginning of the month—it was fashionable to blame the man in a woman’s life for her lack of desire. For years, whenever I printed a letter from a guy who wasn’t getting any, or wasn’t getting much, mail would pour in from women insisting that he had to be doing something wrong.

I called them the “if only” letters: If only she didn’t have to do all the housework, she would want to have sex. If only he would talk with her about her day, she would want to have sex. If only she weren’t so exhausted from taking care of the kids, she would want to have sex. If only he didn’t ask for sex, she would want to have sex. Well now, thanks to Sewell, straight guys everywhere know that it doesn’t matter how much housework you do, or how sincerely interested you are in her day, or how much of the child care you take on: She still won’t want to fuck you. So leave the dishes in the sink, grab a beer, and go play a video game, guys. Your “if only” nightmares are over.

Some couples are truly mismatched in terms of their libidos, and Savage thinks that the one with the lower sex drive has to make a choice between monogamy and putting out — though he doesn’t limit “putting out” to vaginal or anal sex (he includes handjobs, blowjobs and watching your partner masturbate, which he advises the higher-libido partner to cheerfully accept). Which is, apparently, what Sewell herself has done in her marriage. I do wish Savage would give more consideration to stress-related causes of low libido, which has an awful lot to do with inequities in household responsibilities. But at least he recognizes that we are all different, and there is no blanket answer to the question of what women want.


110 thoughts on Yay, another book telling women they don’t really want sex

  1. The sexblogger Figleaf has also done a few posts about Sewell’s book as he read through it; he reports,

    After completing this excellent review, which includes not only authors but a sex therapist, numerous friends, and a couple of comedians and talk-show hosts, she concludes that since she’s an asexual woman all women must be asexual. Or at least far, far closer to it than all men are.

    So, yes, sounds like Dawn Eden all over again — although admittedly being comfortable with your asexuality is a lot healthier than devoting your entire life to finding a husband.

  2. My libido was very strong all through adolescence and young adulthood. I considered it a major part of my personality, I was a person that liked to fuck a lot. As a matter of fact, it was much higher than my first husband’s and he didn’t like it one bit. He tried to control my behavior by withholding sex. The marriage ended for more than one reason but his attitude contributed to my being very happy when it was over.

    I married again and again I was ready for more sex than my husband but he didn’t use it like a reward and I didn’t push. I found I got more if I was less insistant.

    Then after childbirth and while nursing my libido was very low. I blamed hormonal flux and a surfeit of being touched. When I started being able to sleep through every night my libido came back.

    Now I’m in my early 50’s and juggling job, grad school, home, etc. and I’m a lot more tired but I also rarely feel that squirming in my seat desperation to get laid that characterized my 20’s and 30’s. And when we do make love I don’t get the incredibly strong 3 and 4 orgasms per episode that I used to get.

    I detail this history not just because it’s soooo fascinating but to go on record as saying 1) many women like to fuck a lot 2) being unhealthy (exhausted, stressed) does make you less horny and 3) different times, different urges, sex drive isn’t a permanent state. What I did about it was due to personality and concious choice but the amount of free-floating desire has been my body talking, and lately it’s had less and less to say about fucking. But back in the day, ooooh I loved it, loved it and wanted to do it all the time and the men in my life may have talked a good game about wanting it often, but when presented with the opportunity, eh, not so much.

  3. See, it’s thinking like this, from guys like Savage, that I don’t get.

    Guys like Savage (and even some gals) spend way too much time, it seems, looking for the “magic bullet” that will give them exactly what they want from any partner. In Savage’s case, it’s sex. What he fails to recognize is that sex is the END result of a successful connection between two receptive individuals. That is not to say that it is the end goal.

    Any psychologist will tell you that sex is easier to initiate when the prospective partner is A) At ease and in a state of minimized stress, and B) Actually feels desired. Simple humping of the leg, to me, isn’t really a connotation of desire. Simply clutching the leash in your teeth and wagging the tail is not going to make Mommy talk you out for a walk.

    Simple logic. I don’t hold up my end of the emotional bargain in my relationship, my wife gets to being stressed out and feeling unappreciated, and thus libido drops down to zero. And it goes both ways. Boiling the entirety of human sexuality into cheap bylines and platitudes does nothing to solve the problem, least of all Savage’s apparent lack of a sex life.

  4. Zuzu, you were much kinder in your reading of Savage’s column than I was.

    But maybe the reason that women’s libidos are so subject to fashionable theories is that there’s almost no way to know what really is “normal,” since women’s sexuality has been so controlled, constrained, shamed, driven underground, and, paradoxically, encouraged for public performance that a lot of women don’t really know what their baseline really is.

    Excellent point. I do wonder if men have the “Am I normal?” “Is this normal?” conversations about sex at the same frequency that women do.

  5. Zuzu, you were much kinder in your reading of Savage’s column than I was.

    I viewed it as a piece of snark mocking the fashions of pop-psychology sex books that attempt to explain what all women are like. Though there’s a whole lot not to like, such as the gratuitous mention of the lesbian couple’s weight.

  6. Meh, I am a woman with a big libido. It certainly dips noticeably when I’m stressed out at work, but luckily for me I’m single and not married to an enfant-homme who can’t pick up after himself. So when people talk about what’s “normal” for women, I do think it’s hard to do without acknowledging that we first and foremost still don’t encourage women to enjoy themselves sexually. Hell, women still go through their lives not knowing where the clitoris is.

  7. ^and that being tied to oppressive religious/cultural traditions to control women’s sexuality, etc.

  8. I viewed it as a piece of snark mocking the fashions of pop-psychology sex books that attempt to explain what all women are like.

    I actually really got a kick out of a collection of letters he printed about advice to men giving oral sex to women. (He solicited reader suggestions since he’s gay.) Every letter contradicted the previous one, until he got to the end and said “The answer is very clear: fucking ask her what she wants.”

  9. Let’s face it, in the heterosexual sex department, men are the ones that usually get the positive reinforcement. If I had an orgasm every time I had sex, I would want it more often too! But in a culture where most people define sex as the event that occurs when the penis penetrates the vagina, and ends with the guy having his groin spasm, it’s no wonder that women who experience that sort of sex start to view sex as one of those silly chores that has to be done.

  10. ” …least of all Savage’s apparent lack of a sex life. ”

    Erm, Milo? I think you’ve been wooshed.

    My take on the whole thing is that sure, it’s ok if the lesbian couple wants to be totally nonsexual, but I’m wondering if they’ll both be equally happy with that arrangement forever and ever. As a previous poster mentioned, sexual urges ebb and flow over time in relation to lots of factors. Sex (not just the ol’ in’n’out, but shared sexual experience is what I mean here) is part of what defines a certain type of relationship. Human beings like and desire sex. It feels good. It seems to me if your “romantic relationship” totally lacks sex, it’s sort of cruel to keep it going, because sooner or later someone is going to get fed up with it (lack of sex).

    I’ll use the example of a friend of mine who thought she was happy in a sexless relationship until she met someone who really got her going. She really thought she was perfectly happy not having sex AT ALL. We had whole arguments about it. Sure enough, when she met the new guy, she had the old boy dumped toute suite (not before cheating on him, of course), realizing that their relationship had become nothing more than platonic friends.

    I don’t think I’m being clear on this, but I guess it comes down to you shouldn’t generalize about all people, and you shouldn’t assume your relationship will stay the same, and sex is fun. Um, yeah.

  11. ChapstickAddict: Word. And no wonder many women lessen the value of their own orgasm. If you rarely have one, of course you will place more value on other aspects of sex!

    I actually really got a kick out of a collection of letters he printed about advice to men giving oral sex to women. … [H]e got to the end and said “The answer is very clear: fucking ask her what she wants.”

    Well, yes, maybe, but if she’s only experienced a bunch of clueless gits who don’t know where the clitoris is either, then maybe she doesn’t know what gets her off! Asking her won’t help if she doesn’t know the answer.

    This Western view of women as naturally frigid (which, face it, SATC did nothing to dispel) just makes me roll my eyes. In the Muslim world, women are considered the horndogs, not men. Women were given nine parts of desire and men were given the tenth*. Here’s a thought – maybe men and women are both individuals and there are varying levels of desire in both sexes! Maybe men aren’t biologically wired to want sex all the time and hump anything that stands still! What a concept!

    *funny how in both cases women need to be carefully controlled, whether it’s to avoid the consequences of driving men wild (in the Christian world) or driving themselves wild (in the Muslim world), it’s always the women’s fault. bah.

  12. “I viewed it as a piece of snark mocking the fashions of pop-psychology sex books that attempt to explain what all women are like.”

    Same here. Given the number of letters he’s printed in the past from people who get some pretty screwed up ideas about what’s “normal” from pop culture in general, he probably gets a new load of freak-outs delivered straight to his inbox every time somebody writes a new book full of truthy anecdotes, overgeneralizations, and questionable philosophy. I imagine after a while it would make you want to throw up your hands and start snarking full-tilt about the newly-elected Sex Pope and the unhappy people who latch onto Vatican XXX without stopping to question its validity.

    As for the if-only letters, I try to keep in mind that the emails are almost always edited for length. Someone who comes off like a passive-aggressive semi-asshole may have included three paragraphs about the numerous dead-ends he’s reached in regards to communicating about the problem, suggesting counseling, etc. that never made it into print.

  13. But in a culture where most people define sex as the event that occurs when the penis penetrates the vagina, and ends with the guy having his groin spasm, it’s no wonder that women who experience that sort of sex start to view sex as one of those silly chores that has to be done.

    Exactly! As a heterosexual woman who does not, has not, and never will enjoy PIV sex, my sexuality is not only not acknowledged; it is demeaned. Men don’t see the point of non-intercourse sexual acts and women like me end up being called cock teasers and prudes if we limit ourselves to the kind of sex we enjoy. We get called frigid when we capitulate to PIV sex and, unsurprisingly, don’t enjoy it (although I will say that actual enjoyment is less a requirement than at least being willing to pretend you like having your innards prodded with a penis [or anything else for that matter], which I’m not).

    I’m sure there are plenty of cultural asexuals like me who, under less fuck-centered circumstances, would be enjoying lots of non-PIV sex.

  14. I loved Savage’s post. I’m a woman with a low libido, despite having a Hubby who participates equally in chores, no kids, fulfilling work, leisure time, etc. And Hubby is an excellent lover.

    Savage didn’t say all women have low libidos, he said that women have less testosterone than men and many women want less sex, so lay off her. And he said that both partners are responsible for meeting each other in the middle when it comes to sex – or letting their partner seek sex elsewhere. Good advice, I think. If this were the only thing he’d ever written about heterosexual women and sex, I’d be pissed. But it’s one of many sex-positive articles on how couples can take better care of one another.

    There’s one more nuance to the housework stress/no sex argument, one I experienced in a previous relationship. Bad Boyfriend used housework like an advance payment on pussy. “You’re too tired? But I washed the dishes AND wiped the counter!” Some men certainly need lessons on equal housework, but housework is not indirectly proportional to sex drive; it’s one of many factors.

  15. Yeah, Savage is generally kind of a mixed bag, but in this situation at least, his advice is clear and consistent across genders. Whether you are a man or a woman, and whether your partner is a man or a woman, you cannot expect your partner to live in a sexless (or very nearly sexless) marriage.

    Talk about it, make changes, compromise, but in the end, if you’re not going to put out, you don’t get to throw a whiny-baby fit when someone else does.

    What’s consistent is that he believes that sex is an important part of life and that living in a sexless marriage is no better than living in a loveless marriage. Everyone deserves to be loved. Everyone deserves orgasms.

    God knows I’ve been on both sides of this issue. I’ve been the nympho. I’ve been the frigid one. To me it speaks to two things. First, the need to treat your partner’s sexual needs as a real thing, not just as ‘one more thing’ to pull you away from TV or the computer or a book or whatever. Second, dammit, stuff like this is part of why I’m polyamorous. I don’t think we all need to be the end-all be-all for our partners.

  16. Personally I have a problem with having a much larger sex drive than my partner. He’s happy with once a week or so and I’m climbing the walls. I try not to whine too much because he has a thyroid problem that contributes to his low sex drive and he’s been off his meds. But I gotta say I feel like an asshole having to ask for sex all the time. It sucks to have to ask for something your partner should want to do with you, no matter what gender you are.

    As far as treating women like cardboard cut outs, I’ve have been reading this advice site lately, and one of the questions was from a woman saying her fiance wanted to cuddle all the time and she didn’t want to, and the guy’s answer was basically “You should be happy, other women would love their men to want to cuddle all the time.” I shouldn’t really be surprised based on the gender bias I’ve already seen exhibited… but it still pissed me off.

    I wonder what he’d say about MY problem. “You should be happy, lots of women wish their men would stop trying to have sex with them.”

  17. If I had an orgasm every time I had sex, I would want it more often too! – ChapstickAddict

    You do have a point, but you can’t take it too far: don’t think that all of the orgasms us menfolk have are such big explosions. Some of our “orgasms” seem rather equivalent (though it is impossible to judge these things objectively) in terms of muscle contractions and pleasure indicated to something no woman would deign to call an orgasm.

    Call me a troll for raising this question, but do some of the stereotypical cases of women not wanting sex relate simply to expectations that are too high? Is this an issue: that a woman figures if she isn’t getting one of those movie orgasms, it’s a let down, so sex is so often something of a disappointment?

    Also, your point brings up another possible link between lack of libido and stress/exhaustion, I wouldn’t be too surprised if stress/exhaustion might interfere with the ability to have any sort of orgasm for some people — and there goes that positive re-enforcement, eh?

  18. Really, I’d say, as a woman, that any “libido” issues I’ve had are related to the fact that monogamy can be really, really boring. I prefer to fuck a variety of folk, and that keeps my libido strong and charged. Unfortunatly, that isn’t considered an appropriate option for women in this culture. Thank the gods my SO dosn’t feel the same way.

    People are different. Some are monogamous, some are polyamerous. Some like men, some like women, some like both. Some want sex all the time, others never do. Society needs to get over the “one size fits all approach”. So long as clear, meaningful consent is involved, go for it.

    And, BTW, I think the comment by ChapstickAddict is spot-on.

  19. Excellent bit from Figleaf’s site:

    But, and maybe I’m just speaking as and/or for men here, if someone only saw me, or especially if I only saw my self, as booty, as a piece of ass, as a horniness-abatement device, I’m not sure I’d enjoy sex much either. Whether or not I also had orgasms. Whether or not my partners slept on the wet spot. Whether or not they kissed me afterwards or rolled over and snored.

    That doesn’t mean I expect an orgasm out of every sexual encounter. Nor does it mean that it’s at least as much fun to give as receive. Nor does it mean I approach sex strictly in terms of my own satisfaction. I’m just saying sex is something I want to do *with* someone, definitely not *to* them, certainly not *for* them.

    Absolutely spot on. I’d also like to add that this goes for the ‘horny’ partner too. For the love of all that’s holy, I don’t want to be having sex with someone who sees it as her ‘obligation’, or who’s doing me a ‘favor’, I want to be having sex with someone who wants to be having sex with me!

    —Myca

  20. Some of our “orgasms” seem rather equivalent (though it is impossible to judge these things objectively) in terms of muscle contractions and pleasure indicated to something no woman would deign to call an orgasm.

    Uh, no. Are you kidding with this?

    Is this an issue: that a woman figures if she isn’t getting one of those movie orgasms, it’s a let down, so sex is so often something of a disappointment?

    Uh, no.

    If women are learning about women’s orgasms from the movies, we sure aren’t the only ones.

  21. I have to agree with Myca that having sex with someone who WANTS to have sex with me is what I want.

    And while I agree with Jenna about this:

    So long as clear, meaningful consent is involved, go for it.

    I sadly find that poly people are just as bad about that as monogamous ones. 🙁

  22. surely it’s not just me who has particularly mad intense, easily provoked orgasms when I’m under stress. Actually, I know it’s not just me, I’m just surprised no one else here has said it!
    Though I’ll admit it has to be exciting stress over something that’s an actual challenge to my intellect or organisational skills. Boring, drudge-y stress doesn’t do it for me, or probably anyone.

  23. Yeah, I totally get horny and have more orgasms when I’m kind of panic-stressed (as opposed to crushing-boredom-stressed). I think it’s partly adrenaline.

    And um… men have orgasms every time they have sex? I can think of a bunch of counterexamples just from my own experience. But then, maybe my experience is not exactly run-of-the-mill or the stuff of generalizing anecdotes.

    Finally, am I the only one who’s annoyed by the constant invoking of biology (i.e. hormone levels) in these discussions of who’s horny and who’s not? Studies have been done on this stuff. There is some sort of connection, but it’s not simple — people with higher hormone levels aren’t necessarily more eager for sex. Sometimes people get MORE horny when their testosterone levels drop, etc. But well, what would these sex-platitude-writings be without some kind of silly, simplistic “science” to use as an excuse, right?

  24. Kali,
    Me too. The more stressful my day, the more likely I’ll want some. However, I noticed that this only relevant to my partner actually being able to satisfy me. Otherwise, I end up right back where I started from. I Might as well have handled my own (no pun intended.)

    FrumiousB,
    Indeed. I’m Arabic, and come from a very conservative family and culture, but one thing you never hear is that women shouldn’t want sex (it goes without saying though that it should be sought within the confines of marriage.) Everything we’re taught from dance to fashion to mannerisms are about seduction. Which may explain why Arabic patriarchy is in the state that it is- it’s a love-hate relationship for men.

  25. I really dislike the idea of sex as an obligation that if you don’t fulfill, your partner is free to wander. Now if it’s been explicitly agreed that wandering is OK, that’s fine, no problems there, but I feel like people (read straight men) who read this particular column will say “well the wife won’t put out, so I’ll just go elsewhere and that’s OK.” Not trying to be all chipper and optimistic, but communication should solve many of these problems. It’s easier to say “well I’m going to do this and I don’t care what the other person thinks” than to actually talk about differing desires and why they happen and what the couple should do about it.

  26. I never really had orgasms, or at least really good ones, until I learned to ask for what I wanted. And that was usually oral, since the penis-in-vagina stuff doesn’t work for me in terms of orgasm.

    I’ve never really had a relationship last long enough where the falloff of sex was noticeable, and since I’ve never lived with anyone, I’ve always had to essentially schedule sex. Though sometimes it’s kind of, “Well, I’m not really in the mood right now, but I’ve already come all the way out to Queens and he wants to, so might as well.”

  27. surely it’s not just me who has particularly mad intense, easily provoked orgasms when I’m under stress. Actually, I know it’s not just me, I’m just surprised no one else here has said it!
    Though I’ll admit it has to be exciting stress over something that’s an actual challenge to my intellect or organisational skills. Boring, drudge-y stress doesn’t do it for me, or probably anyone.
    – Kali

    Actually, I’m the same way (except for the finding “organisational skills” stress exciting — I find organisational skills testing caused stress to be horribly un-nerving, although it has the same, um, effect on me as exciting, intellectual stress), but alas for most of us (even those of us in generally intellectually challenging jobs), boring drudge-y stress (the turn off kind) occurs all too often.

    And boring, drudge-y stress is, for many people I suspect, a huge damper-putter on things …

  28. Not trying to be all chipper and optimistic, but communication should solve many of these problems.

    Perhaps communication should solve many of these problems, but when the person you’re trying to communicate with just shrugs their shoulders and turns back to the TV/computer, or turns over and goes to sleep (because they had THEIR orgasm), you wonder why you’re even bothering at all. When one person in a relationship knows full well that the other person’s needs aren’t being met and doesn’t care, there’s not much you can do. Been there, done that, got out.

  29. No all het men privilege PIV intercourse over other kinds of sex — at least the kinky ones don’t. I prefer to be able to concentrate on my partner’s orgasm without worrying about my own own, and I really like coming from a handjob.

  30. Fernmonkey,

    What’s even worse is when do that and also think they are the BEST_LOVER_ON_GOD’s_GREEN_EARTH ™.

    Insufferable…

  31. zuzu-
    i think your post would benefit from a reading of sandra tsing loh’s review of the book. she’s a very talented writer, and your broad mischaracterization of her writing, which you seem to have not read, is quite off base.
    i think your disposition to like mr savage has blinded you to the fact that he seems to support the book’s thesis. i normally like mr savage as well, and his conclusion fits his usual MO, namely that sex is a necessary part of a successful relationship, and each partner needs to respond happily to the other’s needs.
    the fact of the matter is that, while it is obvious not ALL women have low (or high) libidos, the one written about in the letter does. and mr savage’s advice is correct: she should be a willing and cheerful sexual partner at times, and her husband should chill the fuck out at other times. ms loh says the same thing at the end of her article, which is why your characterization of her piece was unfair.

  32. “And um… men have orgasms every time they have sex? I can think of a bunch of counterexamples just from my own experience. ”

    geez, for the past week my bf has been the one not getting off while i have (which is normal for me, ive always gotten off easily). he doesnt treat it as a big deal though, hes just been really tired from a new job. and ive definatly been w/ guys that could not get off even after hours of sex so really, all this talk of guys are this and women are that is ridiculous as usual.

  33. I hate this idea Savage pushes that if you don’t have sex enough for your partner’s taste they have the right to cheat on you. Unless you have an open relationship, the answer is no. Try to work it out, and if you can’t, do the right thing and break up. Don’t go behind somebody’s back and then say, “Oh, but I needed it, you frigid bitch!”

    Yeah, I’m bitter, but you would be too if it happened to you and everybody answered with basically, “It’s a woman’s job to fuck and suck her man whenever he wants so he doesn’t go elsewhere.”

  34. You would not believe the amount of therapy it can take for a woman to figure out that her low libido is due to the fact that her husband is being a twat. I could not understand where the attraction to other men was coming from since I had never experienced that in a committed relationship before. Of course, husband 1.0 was more than glad to continually tell me that all the problems in our relationship were my issues. That was also his excuse for not going to counseling. Why? He wasn’t the crazy one. Lesson learned: if you don’t want your s/o at any time, it is highly likely there is something wrong with your relationship. Husband 2.0 admits when he is the one who is too stressed or tired, which makes it very easy for me to do the same on the (very rare) occasions when we are not on the same page. If that keeps happening, we will actually schedule sex and both make an actual effort to be in the mood, which is sometimes easier when you are expecting it (no 4 hour meetings involving yelling or cleaning the garage should precede scheduled intimacy). The important part is that there is nothing taboo about discussing it bluntly. The bluntess helps you know that dips in libido don’t have to do with your attractiveness, so you can actually HELP your partner get back on the good foot instead of feeling rejected and disappointed. As someone said above, though, we do everything we can in this culture to make it very difficult to discuss our own desire honestly and constructively. The thing about women having less desire generally is utter hogwash, of course.

  35. Anna, I don’t think Savage has ever suggested to cheat right away without trying to work it out. He’s always suggested that if you can’t work it out any other way, then the partner not getting any should be allowed an outlet.

    I have to wonder if Dan’s inability to see why these sexual differences between men and women are so maddening because he’s gay. Seems to me that gay men have an opportunity to make “sexual compatibility” a priority on a partner-seeking list, whereas straight people are discouraged from doing this. This book, for instance, discourages straight people from making this a priority and suggests that men and women are just different, dammit, so lower your expectations.

    I’ve never been with a man with a higher sex drive than me, so I get impatient with this stuff, too.

  36. I hate this idea Savage pushes that if you don’t have sex enough for your partner’s taste they have the right to cheat on you. Unless you have an open relationship, the answer is no. Try to work it out, and if you can’t, do the right thing and break up.

    Or maybe (duh) open your relationship.

    I am 100% opposed to the kind of selfish fucks who lie, cheat, and break agreements. I am also 100% opposed to the kind of selfish fucks who expect their partners to abstain from sex . . . both with them and with others.

    Of course, I agree that the fist step should be trying to fix the problem within the relationship . . . counseling (and if your partner won’t go, there’s a big clue that (again, duh) they’re the problem), experimentation, communication, and so on, but I also believe that there are situations where two people love each other very much and just have drastically different libidos. If they’re in love, why end the marriage? If the libidos are so different, why force either one to suffer? There are other solutions.

  37. Sometimes I have a high libido. Sometimes its low. Sometimes, Id rather get myself off. If I feel like a hole in the mattress, Im less inclined to want to fuck. Sometimes, I just want to fuck without any mushy stuff. Sometimes, I like to be on top. Sometimes I like it doggy style. Sometimes, Ive been busy and havent thought about sex. Sometimes, I would rather have chocolate or pizza. Why? Because Im tired and *gasp* hungry. And I do have the ability to see through sucking up in order to get laid. I know, amazing isnt it? Generally speaking, I like to think Im worth more than being bought through doing the dishes. Pestering me over sex leaves me feeling like Im dealing with a two year old begging for his toy. Vaccuming so you can get some feels manipulative. People as a rule dont like being manipulated or pestered.

    Sometimes, if your wife doesnt want to fuck its because of her. Sometimes, its because of you. She’s a person like that.

  38. I also think that women who have higher sex drives than their partners are invisible, because they rarely complain about it as such. Generally they assume that men have higher sex drives and if he doesn’t want to fuck when you do, it’s because you personally are repulsive and need to eat less or something.

  39. I’ve never been with a man with a higher sex drive than me, so I get impatient with this stuff, too.

    The sheer number of women who seem to be saying this since this Savage Love went out – and DS even blogs about this http://www.thestranger.com/blog/2007/03/tens_of_millions_of_exceptions – seems to suggest that Sewell’s basic premise of “women have much lower libidos than men, and that’s just the way it is” has so many exceptions that it’s slightly less useful than the general rule All Men Like Pussy.

    I just think that it’s unnecessary gendering of the problem. It’s a sex and relationship problem, not a gender problem.

  40. Generally they assume that men have higher sex drives and if he doesn’t want to fuck when you do, it’s because you personally are repulsive and need to eat less or something.

    Did you read that thread on Fark too, then? It served as an excellent reminder of why I don’t generally read Fark.

  41. I also think that women who have higher sex drives than their partners are invisible, because they rarely complain about it as such. Generally they assume that men have higher sex drives and if he doesn’t want to fuck when you do, it’s because you personally are repulsive and need to eat less or something.

    Bingo. This is my experience.

  42. Exactly! As a heterosexual woman who does not, has not, and never will enjoy PIV sex, my sexuality is not only not acknowledged; it is demeaned. Men don’t see the point of non-intercourse sexual acts and women like me end up being called cock teasers and prudes if we limit ourselves to the kind of sex we enjoy. We get called frigid when we capitulate to PIV sex and, unsurprisingly, don’t enjoy it (although I will say that actual enjoyment is less a requirement than at least being willing to pretend you like having your innards prodded with a penis [or anything else for that matter], which I’m not).

    Again, though, men also have the right to limit themselves to the type of sex they enjoy. This is a right everyone has*.

    — ACS

    * Though I have to recognize that many women don’t have the power to turn down forms of sex they don’t enjoy — something that most men do feel they have the power to do.

  43. I just think that it’s unnecessary gendering of the problem. It’s a sex and relationship problem, not a gender problem.

    DINGDINGDINGDINGDING

    Correct!

    And that’s why I like his answer. While as an answer to a gendered problem it blows ass (“You women need to learn to put out more.” “Really? Fuck you. How about that?”), it’s a pretty good answer to a general relationship issue: “Don’t treat your partner’s sexual desire as inconsequential or as a problem. Work on compromise. Don’t unilaterally declare a solution that involves one partner just suffering.”

  44. I also think that women who have higher sex drives than their partners are invisible, because they rarely complain about it as such. Generally they assume that men have higher sex drives and if he doesn’t want to fuck when you do, it’s because you personally are repulsive and need to eat less or something.

    *nod* I also think the converse is true. Men with lower sex drives are perceived as worn out or gay by other men. This is part of how the patriarchy polices itself. Even men who aren’t sex-obsessed have to act sex-obsessed or face sanction.

  45. I wonder if there’s a direct correlation to individual sex drive and how much work/stress one has/is doing.

    Personal: I worked part-time while my ex worked full-time and went to school. I wanted sex much more often.

    Hmm… time to surf the net for surveys/studies…

  46. Men with lower sex drives are perceived as worn out or gay by other men.

    And they cover for it by telling their girlfriend she is too fat, too skinny, etc, to fuck.

    Don’t treat your partner’s sexual desire as inconsequential or as a problem.

    That goes for both the low sex drive and high sex drive partner. I don’t see why the compromise always has be for the high sex drive partner to look elsewhere. If the low sex drive partner can be accomodating enough to put out a little more, I think the high sex drive partner can be accomodating enough to go without and not whine about it a little more.

  47. “I just think that it’s unnecessary gendering of the problem. It’s a sex and relationship problem, not a gender problem.”

    To a certain extent. There’s a cultural tendency to look at the gender of the person who is dissatisfied and trot out the idea that that’s just the way it is, everybody’s relationship is like that, men are from Mars and women are from Venus and it can’t be a problem if everyone else is the exact same way, can it?

    If women, full stop, just are not that into sex, why bother looking for a new girlfriend or considering the fact that your current partner just isn’t as invested in the relationship as you are? If all men are insatiable horndogs, why bother putting yourself out by compromising or looking for a boyfriend whose needs are a better match for yours?

    How many people actively sabotage or suppress their own wants and needs to project the socially acceptable image, even within a relationship? Without the gendered baggage people have shoved on them, they’d likely be significantly more willing to address the issue honestly from the get-go.

  48. Zuzu wrote:

    “I’ve never really had a relationship last long enough where the falloff of sex was noticeable, and since I’ve never lived with anyone, I’ve always had to essentially schedule sex. Though sometimes it’s kind of, “Well, I’m not really in the mood right now, but I’ve already come all the way out to Queens and he wants to, so might as well.””

    Heh, as someone with a tendency to extremely long relationships, I have great affection for the scheduled sex phase. I have one of those work-at-home, work’s-never-done jobs, and I have trouble breaking away from the computer to do *anything*, up to and including sex. (As long as I’m at the computer, there’s potential for work to be done, even if I’ve been reading blogs for an hour.) Scheduled sex was great; it was a blip in the schedule I had to accomodate, and I couldn’t beat myself up about ducking other obligations.

    Which is to say, I’m one of those stress-low-libido people, but my job is basically lots of freeform stress. Fun stress, but still. 😀

    *

    I haven’t read this article of Loh’s, but I adore her writing, and I would heartily recommend her books to anyone who’s interested. I would characterize her as a feminist, but her writing persona is sometimes ditzy or illustrating feminist beliefs by counterexample (for instance her riff in _A Year in Van Nuys_ about obsession with beauty). I don’t know if that’s what was going on in this article, since I haven’t read it, but it sounds like a possibility.

    Anyway, she’s funny and delightful and once satirized performance art (although oddly I can’t remember if it was her or her fictional persona, now) by playing the piano on the beach and having bystanders hurl the contents of her bank account at her to symbolize the complete waste of money. The other line of hers I think of frequently is that the primary dilemma of the freelance writer is to decide which of several unfunded projects to pursue.

  49. ChapstickAddict: exactly!

    Considering how crucial lust is to the concept of masculinity, I don’t think we’ll ever be able to settle whether one sex is hornier than the other, regardless of how many anecdotes are collected. If male identity is founded on being different from women, and to be a man is to be lustful, then admitting that women have equal or higher sex drives is an erosion of male identity. It’s a violation of the principle that Men And Women Are Different.

    In other words: men who pride themselves on being not-women would be forced to concede that they in fact have something in common with women. And that would be bad.


  50. An interview with Sewell is available at the Atlantic Monthly online.
    http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200702u/no-sex

    I realize that she managed to write an entire book on the subject and that this interview probably doesn’t capture all her thoughts on female sexuality, but from the interview she really doesn’t seem very insightful and it seems like something else might be the problem.
    First, she doesn’t seem very comfortable with her body.
    Mainly it seems like she’s accepted a very male-centric definition of sexuality as being Sexuality;
    and because it doesn’t work out for her she concludes women have lower libidos than men, instead of different libidos and/or sexual needs. The way she talks about sex is that it’s something women do for men, and some women derive pleasure from that, but others, like her, don’t and therefore have “low libidos.”
    I won’t quote every example, but here’s her opinion on cunnilingus

    I just don’t like to see someone’s head between my legs. Now some people would say that’s because I think it’s dirty down there, or something like that. But it’s the image. I actually think a person’s mouth is a lot germier than my vagina. And they’re lapping around. I think of all the effort my husband is putting into it, and that just kills me.

    That last line kills me. She can’t enjoy a sexual act that is a common way for women to orgasm because of the thought of how much effort her husband is putting into it.

  51. And they cover for it by telling their girlfriend she is too fat, too skinny, etc, to fuck.

    Sure, in some cases. And in some cases, their girlfriends tell them that if they were ‘real men’ this wouldn’t be an issue. In others they just feel really bad about it and develop fucked up sexual dysfunctions. Just like women. All kinds of people are fucked up in all kinds of ways.

    If the low sex drive partner can be accomodating enough to put out a little more, I think the high sex drive partner can be accomodating enough to go without and not whine about it a little more.

    Oh, agreed completely. That’s pretty much what Dan Savage said, by the way. The ‘freedom to look elsewhere’ is for situations where there’s no compromise to be found, and yet the parties want to keep the relationship together.

    —Myca

  52. Two more bits.

    First, ‘preying mantis’, you’re absolutely right about everything you say in post #53, and I found myself saying “Yes! Right!” all through it.

    Second, Isabella, when you say:

    That last line kills me. She can’t enjoy a sexual act that is a common way for women to orgasm because of the thought of how much effort her husband is putting into it.

    I’ve always felt the same way about handjobs and blowjobs . . . I have a hard time, conceptually, just taking pleasure rather than giving pleasure or doing something that we both enjoy. It makes me feel like I’m taking advantage of my partner. So it’s interesting for me to read some of the comments from folks who aren’t into PIV sex.

    —Myca

  53. Sigh.

    Let’s sing a song: there is conclusive proof that AMOUNT of testosterone has little to do with sexual drive. Well, at least in rats (since that’s where so much of this research comes from).

    In male rats, absence of testosterone (meaning the forcible removal of the testes) = complete lack of sex drive. When you give them a FRACTION of their testosterone back (literally, like 1-5% of their normal daily levels), their sex drive returns to within normal ranges. This is what they mean by testosterone helping MAINTAIN libido; it’s a contributing factor to a much more complex process involving hormones, neurotransmitters, the clothes you’re wearing/not wearing, the weather, etc.

    While this may or may not be 100% true with humans, it is absolutely false to claim that amount of testosterone is directly correlational to intensity of sexual drive because such data simply doesn’t exist. At least, as far as I could tell in my meager neuroendocrinology education.

  54. I interpreted that cunnilingus quote to mean that it’s the wasted effort on the part of her husband that she deplores, because the act does nothing for her; it’s not because of the effort that it does nothing.
    I was struck by this quote on masturbation:

    “See, I do get horny, but I’m not so horny that I’m confident it’s going to take me through all the stages of a sex act. And if I fall out of the horniness in the middle, because I’m distracted, then it’s just a slog. The rest of it is just a slog. I want maybe sexual release or relief from anxiety, but involving another person, my libido isn’t strong enough where I can take all the variances. He starts doing this he starts doing that, and it’s like instantly, Okay, I’m out of it”

    That sounds a lot more like high distractibility than low libido.
    One also wonders how much that’s interpreted as low libido is more a matter of bad timing: for a woman who has strongly cyclical fluctuations in sexual desire, a husband might call her libido low because she doesn’t want to screw every day, and she might call his low because he doesn’t want to screw five times a day – on the right day. This is the sort of thing that aggravates me about any general statement regarding men, women and sex: you can’t, really can’t, prescribe for one couple based on any generalities whatsoever. Whereas a guy’s doing an equal share of the housework may not solve a libido disparity, it’s hard to see how it’s in any way a negative. Surely, oh surely, men have been known to do housework because it needs to be done? Surely it is understood that there are actions in life that exist other than as coupons for positive or negative sex-points?

  55. Again, though, men also have the right to limit themselves to the type of sex they enjoy. This is a right everyone has*.

    And what horrible names does society have for men who insist upon PIV sex, even at the protestations of their chosen partner for the night? What neuroses do we attribute to them?

    Oh, that’s right, we don’t call them names and question their very physiological integrity.

    My point was that I and other women like me are damned if we do and damned if we don’t, which doesn’t make any of it an exciting, let alone worthwhile, prospect.

  56. It doesn’t sound like she did a lot of scientific research, she’s just bitter cause she’s not that horny. I mean really there would need to be a re do of the kinsey study to draw the kind of conclusions she’s attempting to draw. It’s all just projection. I she’s bitter that she’s not horny.

    And you know what THAT”S OKAY! She doesn’t have to be a lusty type of girl if that’s just not who she is. But the fact that she’s generalizing that ALL women are just mimicing lust! WHAT! I’m sorry that she’s not horny, but please don’t imply that I’m faking my horniness so that men will like me. Maybe SOME women are, but she really needs to get that “some” in there more often. It sounds an aweful lot like she’s telling me I secretly never want to have sex again.

    And really… how the hell would she know?

  57. And what horrible names does society have for men who insist upon PIV sex, even at the protestations of their chosen partner for the night?

    “Rapist.”

    — ACS

  58. First, FWIW, I think bad chocolate is a great improvement over bad sex.

    I also think that women who have higher sex drives than their partners are invisible, because they rarely complain about it as such. Generally they assume that men have higher sex drives and if he doesn’t want to fuck when you do, it’s because you personally are repulsive and need to eat less or something.

    Well, yeah, and also, even if they do realize their sex drives are higher, there’s the fact that complaining about a woman’s low sex drive (like complaining about a man’s unwillingness to do housework) doesn’t really say anything that bad about her to the world, whereas complaining about a man’s low sex drive is more likely to come across as seriously dissing him, and all around disloyal.

  59. Okay, actually, that last post may have come off unfairly. I’m not accusing anyone of anything other than gendered thinking about the nature of consent. Let me clarify, and (I hope) not in a “but, what about the men!” kind of way.

    Even when men learn to start thinking about consent, it’s frequently not in a particularly productive way; they create some psychological female-gendered gatekeeper that decides whether they themselves are allowed to have sex. They think about consent, but their thinking about consent is not empathetic. They are thinking about a process, but not thinking about it using their potential self as a model — not thinking about women as creatures fundamentally similar to them.

    Some years ago, I worked on a study addressing sexual assault amongst gay men. We started out with questions similar to “have you been raped”, and then went down into various forms of sexual coercion. The answer to the first question was, except in one case, “no”. The answers further down the line — well, someone answered “yes” in every category, and no one answered that they had not been the victim of sexual coercion.

    In the interviews we conducted after the study, it came out that most of them men thought of “consent” as a fundamentally feminine activity; that, even though they agreed that men were capable of giving or denying consent, and some feminist gay men thought about consnt in terms of women, that none of them tnought about their own consent, because none saw themselves as being a potential gatekeeper of sexual activity — which made them particularly vulnerable to both being raped and being rapists.

    A hypothetical man would have the right to consent only to PIV sex or whatever. However, that should result in a relatively sparse sex life for him, since there are few good reasons for a woman to live a life of only PIV sex.

    It’s a personal hobby-horse of mine, and I likely should’ve been clearer.

    — ACS

  60. First, FWIW, I think bad chocolate is a great improvement over bad sex.

    Hmmm… I don’t know… I guess it depends on HOW bad the chocolate/sex is… I mean… really awfully bad chocolate…or eh so-so sex…. I think I’d chose the sex… or eh so-so chocolate vs so bad I could get seriously injured sex… then obviously I’d go for the chocolate…. it’s a toss up really.

  61. Well, since y’all seem to have this covered, can I just jump in and giggle uncontrollably at the column’s/reviewed book’s suggestion that lesbians don’t really bother with sex, and tend to prefer a bag of chips to breaking the bed?
    Oh man. Who were this writer’s interviewees, anyway?

  62. I read Dan Savage’s follow-up, and I have to say he’s a bit of an asshat who seems incapable of understanding what makes good inductive reasoning. I’m glad that in his considered opinion as a sex columnist he’s come to a conclusion about women on average. Sadly, while he certainly has a large enough sample size to draw conclusions from, he doesn’t have a random enough sample. It seems not to occur to him that his typical letter-writers are a self-selecting bunch and that the reasons he doesn’t hear a lot from women with high libidos or men with low libidos just might be that they have no particular reason and/or desire to write a sex columnist asking for help with their problems, whereas women with low libidos and men partnered with women with low libidos might. This is before we even get into external factors that might cause a woman to have a low libido. In fact, the reason he might now be getting more letters from women with high libidos is they finally have a reason to write him. Even that’s a self-selecting sample, but he recognizes that much at least.

  63. ACG, that’s a really interesting insight. I wonder what kind of responses you’d get from BDSM-identified het males? My suspicion is that bottoms and switches would view themselves as creatures with consent to give or not give, but that exclusive tops might come out more like the gay men in your sample. But I’m not sure of that.

  64. I meant ACS- I’m confusing your screenname with alphabet soup that sometimes comes up in my professional life.

  65. In Finance are we?

    Ditto on the scope of Savage’s encounters. Presumably, if I were having a healthy level of sex with a partner that was satisfactory (and hopefully beyond), I would be otherwise predisposed and forego the letter writing….

  66. I interpreted that cunnilingus quote to mean that it’s the wasted effort on the part of her husband that she deplores, because the act does nothing for her; it’s not because of the effort that it does nothing.

    That interpretation occurred to me as well. However, from the way she talks about sex in the rest of the interview, she seems to view sex as something a woman gives a man and does for a man. It could be she’s arrived at this view of sex as a result of having a low libido, but I wonder if it might be the cause of her problems. The idea that sex is something a woman gives a man or does for a man is very common in our society and she seems to have absorbed that idea and never questioned it.

  67. I wouldn’t exactly think to ask Dan Savage about women’s libidos, per se.

    But in his defense, he only advocates sexual cheating if one partner has unilaterally said, “I don’t want to have sex ever again, I don’t want to work it out. Just suck it up and deal with it, honey,” and the sex-wanting partner has reasons (such as children) not to leave.

    Hell, I agree with that myself. I don’t think it’s fair of someone who doesn’t want to have sex at all to insist that the other person shouldn’t want it either and be monogamously celibate with them. And if that person cheating to get sex means they stay together, well, good luck and I hope it works.

  68. Rapist

    No. We don’t call men who demand and insist and whine for PIV sex rapists (and if you reread my post, you’ll see that’s what I was talking about), not even when they know beforehand that the woman being harassed doesn’t like it. We don’t even have a name for men who feel so entitled, even in the face of other options, mind you, that they’ll accept a resigned invitation to just hurry up and get over with already since no one will get any sleep until they do. I imagine if there were a name for them, it would be “typical.” But there isn’t.

  69. We don’t call men who demand and insist and whine for PIV sex rapists (and if you reread my post, you’ll see that’s what I was talking about)

    Actually, when we get to the “insist” part, the label rapist still applies. If you’re talking about some overentitled wanker (pun intended) who whines and cajoles and pouts, that’s different. But someone who insists on sex when they’ve been flat out rejected is a rapist.

  70. Yeah, when I said “insist,” I was thinking more of a foot-stomping, wave-making, misery-inducing, juvenile insistence than a threatening one, per se.

  71. Justicewalks,

    if it means anything for you, *I* call them rapists.

    🙁

    I also don’t enjoy PIV sex. It bores me to death. I’ve only done it a couple of times, at my suggestion, because I absolutely couldn’t get the person off through oral sex. But yeah. I avoid it if at all possible.

  72. All that yammering about women with voracious sexual appetites during Sex And The City’s long reign of terror? A cruel hoax. A figment of the straight-male imagination

    Well, no, Dan. SATC is yet another “it’s really about gay men but to get it made we changed the gay men to women” thing, a genre that goes back at least as far as Tennessee Williams. The creator and most of the head writers during its run were gay men; that sensibility is one of the reasons it was such a hit amongst me and my gay buddies.

    I had my first serious relationship when I was in my mid-20’s. He and I had differing sex drives so we had an open relationship after about 3 months. We had 3 rules: 1. no anal sex, either as a top or bottom 2. never in our apartment 3. we had to tell each other within 2 days so there were no embarrassing social situations. It worked out great-I rarely availed myself and he didn’t much either. It was a perfect solution; we broke up for other reasons. If both partners are relatively sane and not prone to jealousy, I highly recommend it for all orientations.

  73. Well, since y’all seem to have this covered, can I just jump in and giggle uncontrollably at the column’s/reviewed book’s suggestion that lesbians don’t really bother with sex, and tend to prefer a bag of chips to breaking the bed?
    Oh man. Who were this writer’s interviewees, anyway?

    See, I barely noticed the rest of Loh’s review because of this. Zuzu didn’t mention it, but Loh notes that an “extra large” pizza has 16 slices (man, why doesn’t my pizza place make extra large pizzas?). The fat, non-sexual lesbian stereotype was just more than I could take. Surely Loh’s heard the phrase “the plural of anectdote is not ‘data.'” Hell, this is only one anectdote!

    That said, Sewell is late to the game. This Salon piece from 1999 talks about the author’s low libido. Granted, he’s a man, but he seems to have about the same response to sex as Sewell. If a woman has a low libido, it just confirms stereotypes, when it’s a man, well, clearly, he must be absolutely emasculated.

    I had to cancel my subscription to Self when the January issue contained this gem:

    Avoid flat-out asking what’s wrong [if your guy isn’t interested in sex]; some experts have cooled on the idea of the big powwow. “A conversation about low sex drive is not erotic,” Kerner says. In this case, actions may work better than words.

    Basically, snuggle him. Unless you’ve gained 50 pounds. Or are “living in sweats and a scrunchie.” In which case, oh, it’s so your fault.

    [/rant]

  74. I don’t think it’s fair of someone who doesn’t want to have sex at all to insist that the other person shouldn’t want it either and be monogamously celibate with them. And if that person cheating to get sex means they stay together, well, good luck and I hope it works

    A relationship where one person insists the other be celibate and one person is cheating is not a relationship that “works” in any sense of the word.

  75. Hmmm… I don’t know… I guess it depends on HOW bad the chocolate/sex is…

    I was thinking really horrible chocolate compared to really horrible sex. Sex is way better than the best chocolate at its best, but it also sinks to greater depths at its worst. So I can see how even someone who’s biologically disposed to have a normal libido might prefer chocolate if his or her sexual experiences were bad enough.

    A relationship where one person insists the other be celibate and one person is cheating is not a relationship that “works” in any sense of the word.

    Word.

  76. I think of all the effort my husband is putting into it, and that just kills me.

    Huh…I don’t think I ever knew any guys who felt the same way about receiving blowjobs. They just (from what I can tell) relaxed and enjoyed.

    Also:

    I want maybe sexual release or relief from anxiety, but involving another person, my libido isn’t strong enough where I can take all the variances. He starts doing this he starts doing that, and it’s like instantly, Okay, I’m out of it”

    Ledasmom said that seemed more like high distractability rather than low libido, and I agree. I had somewhat the same problem, and it took me a while to work it out. My brain usually provides a running monologue in all other aspects of my daily life, and I realized it was interfering with making sex fun for me. I had to learn to switch that off and concentrate on the physical, until my nervous system took over. I don’t know about everyone else, but I find it’s difficult to orgasm when you think too much about it.

    Back to the oral sex, I also used to worry about how much effort it took, but dh insists he’s happy to do it, so I decided to take him at his word. 🙂

  77. Oh, I’ve met plenty of people, male and female and otherwise, who feel that way about receiving oral sex — well maybe not the way the author lady put it, but echoing what Myca said above. I’m among them, I can kind of enjoy it, but I would much rather be doing something mutual. I have one male friend who got into an argument with one of our female friends who straight out insisted that he couldn’t possibly not like getting a blowjob, that he must have just never had a good one, and that she’d always been able to get every guy she’d ever been with off that way. It’s astounding the kind of weird generalizations and truisms people will fall into about sex… and always twined in with gender somewhere.

    This is the quote from the Atlantic interview that really made me facepalm:

    But to my dismay it is true that if I gain seven pounds, eight pounds, and I’ve got cellulite, I feel less sexual. It’s not so much a difference in lust as it is in that reflexive sexuality, the desire to be desired, which is really the main sexuality I feel, unless I’m masturbating. And it has a big effect on me. I don’t want to admit that I can be that shallow, but it’s true.

    Once women feel like they don’t look good, they don’t feel sexual in any way. For men that’s not the case. They may feel self-conscious, but they’re still going to be aroused. And that just shows that they have a much more resilient sex drive.

    Right. Sure. All women, and just women… not sexual in any way, if you start feeling a bit overweight! Shit, that has NOTHING to do with sexism at all. It must be that men have a more resilient sex drive. This is right after she talks about how “you know, maybe it IS biological.” I’m sorry, all of that takes the cake even more than her weird, half-assured, half-prevaricating about how lusty women are faking it.

    Yeah, when I said “insist,” I was thinking more of a foot-stomping, wave-making, misery-inducing, juvenile insistence than a threatening one, per se.

    I usually call these guys “losers with sore balls.”

  78. In my experience a high sex drive doesn’t really correlate with gender at all, regardless of which gender we’re talking about. It’s variable, and very much an individual thing. So is how easily people orgasm. I have a female friend who if she was male would probably be described as suffering from premature ejaculation. I once made her come with my toe, through her jeans. I’ve met men who require really, really high levels of stimulation (mostly BSDM subs). Like I said, variable.
    The difference between genders is, as stated above, that men tend to view the fact they’re not getting as much as they want as the other person’s fault while women tend to blame themselves.
    As to Savage’s “people should just get it elsewhere” argument” – if the couple agree on an open relationship, fine, but what about when they don’t? What if the person with the lower libido end up agreeing to it only out of fear of losing the other person? Does anyone really think that’s a great solution? Honestly it sounds like emotional blackmail to me.

  79. I LOVE sex when it actively engages us both (which my boyfriend is more than happy to do). He fingers me and engages in cunnilingus, as well as waits patiently, erection nonwithstanding, for me to orgasm before we have sex… or sometimes, we just pleasure ourselves together. And before that, we usually play around. But either way, I assure you that the “sex” being referred to here is being strictly limited to the vaginal, vanilla, missionary sex that women may or may not like — a woman’s sexual preference varies as much as every woman does.

    Like a man, I love sexual pleasure. I love orgasming, usually at least once a day. This does not hold for all women. We’re all different.

    Unlike a man, my most pleasurable areas are not completely predictable. This does not hold for all women either.

    THIS DOES NOT MAKE MY (or any other woman’s) SEXUALITY EXPENDABLE.

    The generalization of personal experience is pretty much spot-on from the article. Don’t use induction to wreck it all for the rest of us!

  80. Hmm, interesting that this should come up, because I just had a great discussion with one of my best gal pals today about this article.
    Coming from our own personal experience, the sex was bad because we were dating douchebags. That pretty much summed it up: men who cared nothing for our pleasure, men who thought the only sex was PIV sex, men who treated us like crap, men who expected sex (instead of asking for consent), men who wouldn’t communicate, etc.

    I am in my first live-in relationship just right now. As in, we’ve been dating for over a year and moved in together almost 2 months ago. So far, everything is awesome. Because!!!: I have a partner who shares housework with me, we don’t have kids (so no libido crush there), we have pretty low living stress (no more crappy roommate on my side). The only interference is our jobs- I work 3rd shifts, and he 1st, so we’re rarely around each other at the same time both of us wants sex. Being quality over quantity people, we manage with a few long sessions a week and I do other stuff too to please him if I”m up for taht but not sex myself.

    Personally, I think I have a pretty low libido normally. I know I am only 26, and that my hormones are still fluctuating, and also I am hypothyroid (although now on medication that should be fixing it totally), so this is makes some sense. Even when I was single, I masturbated maybe 3-4 times a month? Because for me, sex isn’t such a huge priority in my life. I like sex, I like having it with my partner, but it’s not such a big deal to abstain. And in fact, I find that having some time off between sex sessions *helps* my libido, because I find delayed gratification uber sexy. That’s me though. One other thing I find that differs me from others is that I can only seem to orgasm if I really focus on it, which pretty much makes me a bottom of the highest order. Also, if there is anything that will disrupt said concentration, it will not happen, no matter how many of my buttons he’s pushing all at once.
    So what do me and my partner do? *Everything!* Two of the best pieces of advice I’ve ever gotten on sex: Sex encompasses a whole set of physical sensations that don’t always have a correlation to PIV sex; and Sexuality is fluid- even while you are in the act.

    The current SO is also an experimental, kinky kind of guy, who just so happens to be completely and fully sexual- to him, sex is more than PIV, and encompasses a lot of different acts/sensations. When we started dating, I wanted to take it slow, and he was cool with it. When I was ready, he had a bit of an impotence problem due to performance stress. Both situations allowed us extra time to explore the other areas of sex, the other things we like. I had never had an experience like that, and it really was freeing.

    Also, I have to add that not being able to communicate effectively with my partner, and thus not feeling connected, was a big turn off. A lot of het couples in this society aren’t communicating on a deep intimate level- and how would they when this is the shit they see all the time? My aforementioned gal pal is grad neurology student, and the fact is that individuals differ more than gendered groups. That’s brain chemistry fact, people.

    So, yeah! Let’s stop genderizing our problems and start communicating properly and having sex if you want to and not having sex if you want to and let individuals fucking vary already! (Also, let’s let individuals vary fucking too!)

  81. “As to Savage’s “people should just get it elsewhere” argument” – if the couple agree on an open relationship, fine, but what about when they don’t? What if the person with the lower libido end up agreeing to it only out of fear of losing the other person? Does anyone really think that’s a great solution? Honestly it sounds like emotional blackmail to me.”

    It’s hard to think of a possible solution that wouldn’t, were the couple in question emotionally unhealthy, sound like emotional blackmail. “Shut up about your needs or I’ll leave you.” “Put out more or I’ll leave you.” “Let me have other partners or I’ll leave you.” “I don’t want any sort of sex except vaginal intercourse in the missionary position, and you’re a pervert/slut/bad person for wanting anything else. You’re lucky I put up with you, because nobody else would.”

    I don’t think most people would characterize any solution to ‘we can’t break up, but our libido differential is driving us both nuts and making us both miserable’ as ‘great,’ though. It’s an inherently bad situation, and the most reasonable option (break up and find more compatible partners) has already been taken off the table for one reason or another.

  82. I agree, preying mantis. Often there isn’t so much a best solution as a least bad solution. And I don’t think that “…or I’ll leave you” is necessarily emotional blackmail anyway. Autonomy is an important right. When it comes to adult SO-type relationships, we don’t have the right to demand sex, celibacy or anything else, but we do have the right to walk away.

  83. Oh, definitely. But there is usually a difference between the “…or I’ll leave you” threat and saying “I need _______ from you. If we can’t work this out, or if you’re unwilling to give me what I need, then we need to separate.”

    The one is generally an attempt to make your partner insecure in the relationship, blame them for the problem, and bully them into doing what you want by presenting them with a false dichotomy. It frames it as the demander being in charge, and the demandee can either accept what they want or get dumped. Approaching something like a difference in libido as a mutual, shared problem is more honest, less unfair, and less manipulative, even if the end result is the same.

    It’s kind of like how divorce isn’t emotional blackmail, but using the potential for it as a bargaining chip almost always is.

  84. I am so so so glad that you guys have been discussing this article.

    I have only ever slept with one guy, my current guy, and it has amazed me at how high my sex drive is. We’ve been having sex for several years now, and it doesn’t diminished (for the most part). For a long time, I was embarrassed about that and didn’t want to ever talk about it. Then, one night, my best gal friend and I had some drinks and that’s what we ended up talking about all night. Her libido is really high, her husband’s is not. We both have high libidos, it’s just that our experiences are varied, and both of us were always too nervous to ever talk about it. I think it is largely because women aren’t supposed to *want* sex. We’re supposed to bitch about it, give it up, pay the piper, etc.

  85. Like a man, I love sexual pleasure. I love orgasming, usually at least once a day. This does not hold for all women. We’re all different.

    Unlike a man, my most pleasurable areas are not completely predictable. This does not hold for all women either.

    Speaking of generalizations and bad use of induction. I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve had to remind lovers that there is more to me during sex than four erogenous zones.

  86. preying mantis: I don’t think most people would characterize any solution to ‘we can’t break up, but our libido differential is driving us both nuts and making us both miserable’ as ‘great,’ though. It’s an inherently bad situation, and the most reasonable option (break up and find more compatible partners) has already been taken off the table for one reason or another.

    Part of what bugs me in this discussion is that differences in libido are almost always treated as some kind of critical and terminal pathology for the relationship. If people just get past the blinkers that “sex” involves PIV and mutual orgasms, there are plenty of ways to satisfy both needs.

  87. Part of what bugs me in this discussion is that differences in libido are almost always treated as some kind of critical and terminal pathology for the relationship

    Well, if it weren’t, there wouldn’t be a problem, no? This only comes up when the people involved consider it a serious issue. A soy allergy is no big deal in 9th century Italy, and is near freaking fatal in Japan. *shrug*

    I’m with you on understanding that there’s more than one way to satisfy everyone’s needs, though.

    —Myca

  88. Myca: Well, if it weren’t, there wouldn’t be a problem, no? This only comes up when the people involved consider it a serious issue. A soy allergy is no big deal in 9th century Italy, and is near freaking fatal in Japan. *shrug*

    I find there is a lot of how our culture frames relationship dynamics is that differences in libido are either a problem to be fixed, or a critical sign that the relationship is moribund. If you don’t accept one of those two frames, then you are in denial about the true state of your relationship.

  89. I find there is a lot of how our culture frames relationship dynamics is that differences in libido are either a problem to be fixed, or a critical sign that the relationship is moribund. If you don’t accept one of those two frames, then you are in denial about the true state of your relationship.

    I get what you’re saying, it’s just that in that situation saying, “We’re happy, fuck off,” is a perfectly reasonable solution. Both in the book and the letter to Dan Savage though, the people in the relationships weren’t happy.

    I agree that our culture puts forward a ‘socially accepted’ level of sexual activity, and I agree that that’s fucked up, and hey, I’ve got no problem with folks who prefer not to have sex at all. I wish them much non-sexual happiness together. It’s just that we’re discussing this as a problem because for so many many people it is.

  90. I think Monty Python analyzed it best:

    Brian: You are all individuals!
    Crowd: YES, YES, WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS!
    Brian: You are all different!
    Crowd: YES, WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT!
    Lone Voice: I’m not.
    Person next to him: SHH!

    finished off with:

    Brian: NOW, FUCK OFF!!!!
    Arthur: How shall we fuck off, oh Lord?

    As much as it would make it easier on everyone if all women were the same or if all men were the same, they aren’t. Hell, one person isn’t the same from one day to the next. And as far as society is concerned, you can ALL FUCK OFF. My sex drive is my business, well, mine and my wife’s.

    All this crap about women are supposed to have x level of sex drive and men are supposed to have y level is just that, crap. If a woman wants it three times a day from three people at a time, more power to her. If she wants it never, so what. It all ends up being between her and whoever she is in a relationship with.

    And speaking as a man, all this crap about women are supposed to have low libido is bullshit from old men who wanted to keep their daughters pure and chaste. For those of us and the women in our lives who have been fucked up by the “you can’t like sex, you’re a girl” crap, this isn’t misogyny, its just a pain in the ass. It is just as much an obstacle for me to overcome in terms of being open with my wife as to what I want and when as it is to my wife being open to me.

  91. “Part of what bugs me in this discussion is that differences in libido are almost always treated as some kind of critical and terminal pathology for the relationship. If people just get past the blinkers that “sex” involves PIV and mutual orgasms, there are plenty of ways to satisfy both needs.”

    I think part of the problem might be that we’re talking about two different things. You’re talking about the sort of blank slate where the couple in question has a libido difference. I’m talking about a couple where the disparity has actually become a very large problem.

    If a couple is open, communicative, and doesn’t have any large hang-ups about what they should want or should do muddying the waters, there’s no particular reason a difference in sex drives needs to be a problem. There are as many different, healthy ways of dealing with it as there are people, and a couple’s method is going to vary wildly depending the interplay of wants, needs, and interests. They might not be able to find a way that’s mutually satisfactory, but it’s not a foregone conclusion.

    If a couple is at the point where they’re saying “we can’t break up, even though we’re desperately unhappy,” it’s kind of assumed that they’ve taken more than a few laps around Lake Compromise and come to an impasse for whatever reason. They are members of the subset that has a difference in libido and could not find a mutually satisfactory solution.

    Usually when you have a relationship that has a serious problem–a problem that’s making both partners very unhappy–and that problem is very unlikely to go away, be solved, or otherwise change, the solution is to split up. I don’t think anyone here is saying “You should split up the second this issue, which might cause an insoluble problem, rears its head.”

  92. Right, Preying Mantis.

    I also don’t think that anyone (including Dan Savage) is saying, “at the first sign of a difference in libido, run off and fuck hundreds of people who are not your partner, laughing maniacally all the while.”

  93. I don’t think anyone here is saying “You should split up the second this issue, which might cause an insoluble problem, rears its head.”

    True. On the other hand, I do remember seeing the occasional person show up at the Why Your Wife Won’t Have Sex With You blog, back when it was active, to announce that, hey, you guys should all dump your selfish wives. And it bugged me because, although these were marriages where the libido difference was a problem, ones where the guys thought they’d already made some fair attempts at compromise, and, probably, marriages some of which would end in divorce, these were also marriages which appeared in some cases to have difficult, but possibly not endless problems, such as a wife tired out by care of small children who has also had a recent death in the family and right now is suffering from clinical depression.

    So, sometimes people do, when hearing another person’s plea for advice, pick up too much on the immediate unhappiness of the marriage, without considering circumstances that may make it likely that this immediate unhappiness could improve. This goes for sexual incompatibility, and for some other things as well.

  94. “I also don’t think that anyone (including Dan Savage) is saying, “at the first sign of a difference in libido, run off and fuck hundreds of people who are not your partner, laughing maniacally all the while.””

    Well, Mr. Savage at least has made that abundantly clear in the past in responses to people who’d either made no effort to compromise with their low- or other-lidiboed partners or who aren’t in a situation where breaking up would be disastrous.

  95. Lots of comments anytime the issue of sex comes up- me? I love a woman with high libido and capable of multiple orgasms. And it does not have to be tied to emotion, either. Am sure a lot of women can relate with that. And honestly, long-term monogamy becomes sexually boring at some point. There has to be more to hold it together.

  96. Are we being a little too phylosophical about this? We are only talking about sex, right? But I understand the entire human existence is predicated on the sex-libido-penis envy thing! So the discussion will never end. I doubt we will ever find one answer fits all, though.

  97. I have the easy answer:

    My wife told me “no”. She said, ” I can go the rest of my life without sex.” That’s it. I go about my life, do my share in the house, and try to improve myself to help improve what I see around me. There’s no need to negotiate, no need to discuss. Life goes on.

    Life is not about happiness. Or pleasure. I chose to marry her, and I made the vows. Somehow we have this childish idea, which is of no political origin, that we are on this planet so we can feel good. Hogwash!

    So, why the hell can’t both sides move past this issue, screw the religious oppressive zealots, and let’s concentrate on doing something productive, not something reporductive!

  98. Life is not about happiness. Or pleasure. I chose to marry her, and I made the vows. Somehow we have this childish idea, which is of no political origin, that we are on this planet so we can feel good. Hogwash!

    I hope VA Freedom is a parody, because that’s pretty fucking depressing. What’s “childish” about feeling good, or being happy? Get help, man.

  99. I hope VA Freedom is a parody, because that’s pretty fucking depressing. What’s “childish” about feeling good, or being happy?

    Really. Also, the bit about ‘childish idea of no political origin’.

    First off, who the fuck cares whether an idea is ‘of political origin’ or not? I think people have a right to live happy lives.

    Second, VA Freedom, you’re just really wrong about there being no political origin for the idea. Ever hear of ‘life liberty and the pursuit of happiness‘, dude?

  100. I’m with VA Freedom on this one – a bit of stoicism in a marriage isn’t a bad thing. though I get the impression his stoicism is actually masking his unhappiness with the status quo.

    But it’s perfectly possible to be in a a virtually or completely sexless relationship, and yet still to be perfectly happy despite the constraints. Mismatched libidos are just one of myriad reasons why people don’t have sex together but iit doesn’t mean they don’t have sex. That is why wank mags and vibrators were invented, after all. If you want a bloody orgasm you can do it yourself.

    But for many people love, regard and cmpanionship are equally or even more important than the fleeting physical pleasure of an orgasm. Orgasms are fantastic, more please, but let’s face it, they are a mere bagatelle; great to have, but perfectly do-without-able. Given the choice between my best-ever orgasm (insert smile of fond remembrance here) and being with someone who loves me wholeheartedly with no reservations, I know which I’d choose without a second thought.

    I know that sex is supposed to cement the pair-bond and provide some mystical sense of union and I know from experience that there certainly are times when great sex can approach the mystical. But on the whole it’s just another physical function. When making a lifetime commitment to be a partner to someone is it reasonable to then expect that person to be subsequently responsible for fulfilling that physical function for you forevermore?

    When both halves (or thirds or quarters or whatever) of any lifetime partnership take responsibility for their own sexual needs it immediately takes the pressure off all the other power tensions in the relationship.. You can actually start relating human to human.for once and the expression of humans’ love for one another can reach depths and heights that make that exquisite whole body sneeze called an orgasm seem a very small thing.

    Now pass me that Rabbit.

  101. “So, yes, sounds like Dawn Eden all over again…”

    Just to be clear, I disagree entirely that Sewell is like Dawn Eden. Having now *finished* the book I’d only partially read in the post A Pang linked to here, I appreciate her a great deal more. Her key points:

    – Most pop-psychology approaches to libido differences are highly gender biased — for instance it’s commonly insisted that childhood traumas, aloof fathers, strict religious educatcion, etc. create low libidos in women, but Sewell points out rather tartly that her husband’s background was almost identical to hers yet his libido was unaffected… so why, she asks, should we assume they would have affected her?

    – Instead, she says very reasonably, she just doesn’t have a very high sex drive *with men or other women.*

    – She says, accurately, that women tend to desire sex less often than their male partners… and articulates both biological *and social* reasons why this might be. With enough emphasis on gender-based social pressure to distinguish the difference between “women can’t enjoy sex as much as men” and “women often *don’t* enjoy it as much.”

    – By the end of the book she determines that she’s been raised into a “should have sex to please men” culture and resolves to have sex — much less in her case — for *her* satisfaction.

    That’s about as far from the Dawn Eden “save your hymen for Mr. Right because he won’t want a used pussy” ideology as you can get… without swallowing it’s equally unrealistic Sex and the City opposite.

    figleaf

  102. figleaf, it’s like Dawn Eden in the approach she takes: true for me is true for All Womankind, and women who say different are lying.

  103. Republic of Palau, I don’t disagree with your last post. But as Dan Savage and others have pointed out, the bigger problem is when “If you want a bloody orgasm you can do it yourself” is presented as a like-it-or-lump-it choice by one partner in a relationship.

  104. I guess I don’t see physical closeness as less (or more) important than emotional closeness, so I think of ‘the wife who just says no to sex’ on pretty much the same level as ‘the husband who just say no to cuddling’.

    Oh, and please, feel free to switch the genders there. I don’t think the traditional bullshit stereotypes hold water.

    Since I think of denying your partner all emotional closeness as abusive, I also think of denying your partner all sexual closeness as abusive. This doesn’t mean PIV sex, god knows, but it does mean that saying “If you want a bloody orgasm you can do it yourself,” is pretty much on the same level for me as saying “if you really want someone to tell you they bloody love you, (sneer) why don’t you just say it to yourself.”

    In other words, it’s a really fucked up, shitty way to treat a partner.

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