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BSG Discussion Thread — 3.17 “Maelstrom”

zuzu

Hi, Kara!

(spoilers ahead)

Bye, Kara!

I swear, if Starbuck turns out to be a Cylon, like all of the other strong women on this show who aren’t either crazy and despotic or warm-n-fuzzy and despotic, I will never watch this show again.

I’m already bracing for some kind of mystical shit.

30 thoughts on BSG Discussion Thread — 3.17 “Maelstrom”

  1. There is no way this doesn’t mean Thrace is a Cylon. What’s the other option? We just never hear from her again, and maybe in the series finale, someone says “Yep, Kara really was crazy for thinking there was something mystical about the fact that she painted a circle and her stalker/kidnapper thought she was special.”

    She’s going to be one of the final five, and it’s going to make no sense.

  2. I never thought that I would have to worry about BG spoilers on certain bloggos (don’t worry, it was the thread at IBTP).

    BG is not even close to perfect on sex issues, but if the Pres/Kara/Six/Boomer aren’t the heart of the show, I don’t know what is. I still haven’t seen last weeks, so I am gonna try to catch up.

    Listen, the parts of this show that are good are so good, and I believe in the characters so much, that when the writers fuck up/get lazy, like three weeks ago when they thought they were adding a wrinkle with Lee’s mom’s alcoholism, I just mentally edit it out fo the show. The show is a combination of true and false moments, and the false notes seem to just ring in an obvious way, so out the door with them.

    A mistake in the show is the imbalance in the Cylons- the character of Leoben is very interesting, and can be contrasted with Caprica 6, Gina 6, Baltar head 6, 3, Boomer, Sharon…you get my point. They made Simon and the other guy total sideline ciphers. While totally solid, this show has never found a way to integrate multiple non-main characters, and thus every new character is really just a device for some sort of plot manipulation/underlined point (Duck, the other guy, Kat, worst was whatshisname (Dixon) from Alias- that was by far the worst ep of the series, even if it had some good parts). This is where you can see them flying by the seats of their pants.

  3. Oh, I know they show a lot of Helo skin, but even I got annoyed with the Athena in her underwear folding laundry scene from the Helo ep three weeks ago. The whole time (I’m serious) I was like fold some goddamned laundry HELO! And I admit that I am a piece of shit laundry slacker.

  4. So I think the heart of the show – what Moore is really pushing for here – is that we are all tormented by the blonde women in our heads. And in that way, aren’t we just like Baltar? And therefore aren’t we just as responsible for the Cylon attack as he was? Think about it.

    I saw people all over TWOP and the sci-fi boards talking about how they cried so much and how horrified they were, and I was like, what’s everyone all upset – ohhhhhhh, they think she’s really dead!

    My vote is “much like the last Starbuck, she will find herself in the ship of lights,” pretty much solely because I will be SO UNSPEAKABLY ANGRY if she is a Cylon. That would be disgusting. Fates, from most disgusting to least:
    1) Cylon
    2) Her destiny relates to her ovaries
    3) reborn as Cylon-human hybrid cloned from her own ovaries
    4) reborn as clone
    5) whoo mormon ship

    Would be pretty funny if she were a Cylon and her destiny was to find Earth, though, making January’s Big Deal Preview (one will die. one will discover they are a cylon. one will find earth) all about her.

    Roslin, on the other hand, *is* a Cylon because unlike every other main character, she has no blonde woman tormenting her in her head.

    So, like, her mom had to toughen her up so she would be fucked up enough to want to kill herself, once she… overcame everything that fucked her up? Worst destiny ever.

  5. Thrace is a significant and powerful character and I can’t imagine the show without her. Since the season’s ending soon and won’t return until January, perhaps the loss will only be felt for the last two episodes of season 3.

    That the person to help Kara make the courageous leap (into the metaphysical who knows what?) is Leoban kind of blows, if you ask me. (What, is this the remake of The Night Porter?) But then only the writers know what’s going on with that show. BSG is not as directionless as Lost, which is off the rails, but I’m intrigued more by the characters and their stories than the overall plot.

  6. PP-
    But if they had Helo fold laundry in addition to everything else in the episode you’re talking about they might as well as had him heal the sick with his touch (seriously, the guys basically giant eye candy Jeebus, unlike every other character i the show all of his choices are morally pure, not always undeniably smart, see: killing the cylons vs. genocide, but always morally correct).

    Zuzu- There’s only one person I’d add to the “heart of the show” dynamic, Baltar, the guy is basically the extremes of humanity boiled down into one character; the good, the bad, the lust, the genius, the megalomania, the matyr-complex, the suickening weakness and the incredible strength of will. To be honest I’ve always viewed Baltar and Starbuck as basically the same flawed person searching for belonging and not caring who they hurt along the way.

  7. Whoops, the “heart of the show” thing was PP as well. The only upside to this is hopefull we fnally are at the end of the Starbuck Apollo crap (I mean sure Duall and Anders weren’t the most interesting spouses but c’mon the fact that each is basically used as a tool to hurt Staruck or Apollo is while realistic, a load, especially snce while we’re shown that D is essentially open to what’s going on and so damaged she’ll accept it, Anders not just beating down Apollo has never set well with me).

  9. Actually, D always seemed less open to it than Anders. Anders response of “What, you think your something special because she cheats on me with you. Dude, do you really think you are the first or the last man she’s cheated on me with?” seemed both in character and pretty damaged, while Dualla always seemed really pissed off about it

    I’m really hoping for some heavy metaphysical episodes, but then I’ve always loved their heavy metaphysical episodes. And while this season has had some good bits (the New Caprica episodes and the constant trope of everything in the fleet breaking down, plus Three and the final five), a lot of this season (as with the middle part of season 2 (and of season 1) ) has seemed at pretty lose ends as to what the show was supposed to be about. For me, this season really needs a big metaphysical finish like first season had.

    Also chiming in to say, put yer spoilers behind a cut zuzu. Even now, there are still plenty of people who will be spoiled by this post who haven’t seen it yet. It’s not too late to do a little less harm than otherwise.

    And I so wish I hadn’t read nerdlet’s spoilerific comment about about the January big deal preview. I had managed to know nothing of any such preview, and I wish I could have stayed not knowing about it until the end of the season.

    Lesley2, the person to help her through her fear isn’t Leoben, Kara just imagines him as Leoben, because fear and torture is what Kara thinks both made herself strong and made herself weak, and because Leoben is the representation of that that she can imagine being in the vision as her guide. If her mom were still alive, it probably would have been her mom guiding her.

  11. SPOILER ALERT!

    What would be wrong with Starbuck being a Cylon? I like the Cylons.

    yrs, B. Dagger Lee

  12. Is it possible that the Leoben stand-in is the representative of some larger spiritual force? It seems like both Kara and D’Anna (before she was shut down) were getting really close to answers on ultimate questions of life, death, and meaning. So far, yeah, it seems only the Cylons are hung up on their God, the Final Five, the cyclical predetermined pattern of events, and other quasi-mystical issues, but maybe Kara is the human who’s now on a quest (God knows where) for those things. Maybe the Leoben stand-in is some guide for her on this quest, and perhaps she isn’t a Cylon but the first human in the show so far who’s attuned to the same underlying spiritual things they are. Just a theory, which would be more interesting to me than some hackneyed “Starbuck’s a Cylon!” stereotypical sci-fi bullshit.

    Emotionally, this ep really left me shaken, and the affecting scene with Olmos at the end really underscored what a gaping hole her loss is. Hope they know where they’re going with this because you cant really have the show without her in the long run.

  13. aeroman- yeah, I asked my boyfriend (he turned me on to this show) last night: Is Kara a cylon?

    His response (he’s a major fan) was to the effect that the major five players may be the original (or whatever they’re called) five cylons. You know; Apollo, Kara, Apollo’s dad, Mary Mc’s character,….

    Or, as it is all social commentary- Everyone is a cylon! Yikes. Just like the ideas that brought people to the conclusion that slavery is okay, instead of realizing we’re all HUMANS. You know, the grand metaphors of the show.

  14. That episode was so draining. You knew what was coming the whole time, but kept hoping that it wasn’t going to happen. It was just such a sucky way to go.

  15. Are the theories about Kara not really being dead based on real information (like the actor not having left the show or some previews I’m not aware of), or just on the fact that the writers appear far too wussy to kill off anyone that wasn’t introduced at the beginning of the same episode? (Not that the latter is without merit, but I’m just curious.)

  16. Well, there’s some speculation that since the series has tracked the original to some extent especially wrt major plot points (i.e. the Pegasus getting destroyed and Baltar being on the Basestar), Starbuck will wind up in some ship with a lot of lights just like Dirk Benedict did in the original.

    However, I don’t remember enough about the original series, which I last saw when I was 10 years old, to say for sure.

    Plus, there’s that final five thing. People on TWOP are speculating that they’re not acutally Cylons but living in some kind of in-between plane of existence, where D’Anna saw them.

    I suppose it’s possible that she didn’t actually die but ejected and got snatched up by the Raider that nobody else saw. But if she goes back, she’ll immediately be under suspicion of being a Cylon.

  17. I don’t think she’s dead or a Cylon. Moore hasn’t outright said she’s not dead, but has said she does have this big destiny, which will be revealed. I can’t say that episode revealed the specifics of this big destiny, so I think she’ll wind up on the Ship of Lights, and we’ll pick up her story again next season. In the original, it was on the Ship of Lights that Starbuck and Apollo got the coordinates to Earth.

  18. I heard Katee Sackhoff interviewed on the radio last night–she’s a Portlander, and some local DJ was nerdy and got her to call in–and she was very tightlipped, but did mention that she’s got a six-year contract that still holds.
    That is: we’ll be seeing Starbuck again.

    Also, Katee had some hilarious road rage while on the phone. It made me envision her sitting there in traffic surrounded by Subarus, with her cell headset, in a Viper cockpit.

  19. If you listen to RDM’s podcast all he says is “killing Kara” and “The death of Kara.” So this Kara Thrace that we know is DEAD. But I believe she’ll come back as something else because I don’t believe the producers have the balls to kill her off. They didn’t have the balls to follow through with the “dying leader will lead them to Earth” Rosalin storyline (cylon babies cure cancer don’tcha know) and they’ve had ample opportunity to kill off other non necessary characters (Cally anyone?) and haven’t.

    Starbuck will be back.

    What would be wrong with Starbuck being a Cylon? I like the Cylons.

    Aside from the fact that no one knows of Kara’s previous life BEFORE she joined the fleet (much like Boomer had “memories” of her family) it could be possible that Kara is a Cylon but why have a sleeper this long in the fleet? Plus, she may have committed suicide, which, if we’re to believe Gina, Cylons can’t commit suicide, it’s a sin……………..But wait, Gina technically committed suicide when she blew up Cloud Nine……never mind.

    The problem I have with Kara being a Cylon is that 1) it’s OBVIOUS. So painfully obvious I’m hoping for a misdirection. 2) Her entire storyline was based around how HUMAN she was. How flawed and pained. If she’s a Cylon then all of that was programmed into her and it was for nothing.

    And how could The Adama’s be Cylons? Unless Zack was a Cylon, as well as the wife but then that’s the ENTIRE Adama family (which puts the models well over 12) that they’d have to explain. And if Rosalin is a Cylon how’d she get cancer?

    I had faith in the writers from the mini-series through season two, however now I believe they don’t really know what’s going to happen. This is turning into Lost, though it’s not that bad yet.

    I honestly could have cared less throughout this episode. They really have to give Kara a “very special” destiny BESIDES death (as Ron explained in the podcast). Her mother was preparing her to die her whole life? Beating the fear of death out of her? I don’t buy it.

    If you do hop over to TWOP then there’s some good theories about the Ship of Lights and the goddess of dawn figure that Kara gave to Elder Adama. I’m not going to speculate on anything, just see where the show is going to go.

    Like others have said, if she’s a Cylon then my love affair with this show is over.

  20. What would be wrong with Starbuck being a Cylon? I like the Cylons.

    Because that would make every main female character except for Roslin a robot, therefore not really female, therefore instead of having a variety of female characters (if pushed, I’ll accept that Six and Eight together count as one female character) who are smart and strong and successful (and, of course, fucked up) because they are smart and tough and have fought to be successful, you have a bunch of female-bodied robots who were programmed to appear smart and strong and successful.

    And though there are many ways for characters to be strong, I want to particularly emphasize physical strength and capability here, because how many current female characters in ANY current media get to be strong and tough without having either supernatural powers or bio-engineering of some sort? I’m sure there are a few aside from non-Cylon-Kara, but well, I can’t actually name any.

  23. i have to go for the not-dead option for Starbuck. She’s just too good and too central a character to kill off in one throw-away episode like that. I’m guessing that the planet, who’s atmosphere they were in, and the “eye” of that storm is really a passage. I say that because of a few things: 1) before her ship explodes, her hand is on the escape lever 2) from the viewer’s perspective behind Apollo watching Starbuck’s viper, we see the raider she was chasing, so it’s not a hallucination on her part 3) Galactica and vipers can’t get accurate draidus readings of the planet. Plus it would be a neat wrap up to the Eye of Jupiter nonsense pointing the way to earth, since, whoot, a nebula, wasn’t that exciting.

  24. The radio interview Little Light refers to is here: http://www.cortandfatboy.com/index.php?id=489
    (I didn’t realize they were a Portland show! Hey, local.)

    I’m definitely going along with the not-dead theory. There are too many loose ends. Has anyone seen the old BSG episode War of the Gods? Someone suggested that this episode is leading up to a reimagining of that one: http://community.livejournal.com/13th_colony/182250.html#cutid1

    Also, this storyline needed trigger warnings.

  25. Has anyone seen the old BSG episode War of the Gods? Someone suggested that this episode is leading up to a reimagining of that one

    That’s my guess as well. I’m just hoping they re-imagine it without Count Iblis. I loved Patrick Macnee, but the whole “Ooh, he’s really Satan plot” annoyed me.

  26. “I swear, if Starbuck turns out to be a Cylon, like all of the other strong women on this show who aren’t either crazy and despotic or warm-n-fuzzy and despotic, I will never watch this show again.”

    “Like others have said, if she’s a Cylon then my love affair with this show is over.”

    “Her entire storyline was based around how HUMAN she was. How flawed and pained. If she’s a Cylon then all of that was programmed into her and it was for nothing.”

    (delurking) Is this Feministe I’m reading these comments at? Have y’all been watching this show? The “Pegasus” episode especially.

    The Cylons are, well, not human, but persons. Remember the line–“You can’t rape a machine”–if that wasn’t a wake-up call about the Cylon’s status I don’t know what would be. Gina was no less of a person as a human, didn’t suffer just as much as a human, just because she was a Cylon.

    Does Athena’s (Boomers’/Galactica Sharon’s) story and experience mean nothing? Was no one affected by Caprica 6’s horror at the results of Cylon-occupied New Caprica?

    IF (that’s a big IF), Starbuck is indeed a cylon, I don’t think it will in anyway invalidate her character. In fact, it’s more likely that it will enrich it (see Boomer/Athena), especially given Kara’s already-existing hero/fuck-up problem.

    One of the great accomplishments of show is allowing/forcing us to see the person, not the other. Seeing Athena, Caprica 6, Baltar’s 6, Baltar, et al as people after the genocide, is pretty impressive.

    I persnally don’t want Kara to be a Cylon, but I think that a show that can make me cry over Ellen Thigh’s death can do a good job on Starbuck as a cylon.

  30. Possible triggering image involved here. Just so you’re aware….

    That storyline DEFINITELY needed trigger warnings. Even a general “Disturbing images; Parental guidance advised” may have helped some. There would at least have been an awareness then. I’ve never been physically abused by *anyone* and the shots of that little girl and the door made ME jump and squirm. (Then again, I have had my fingers closed in a door. Not slammed, closed. It was quite painful enough and I still have a very small scar, thank you.) I can’t imagine how bad it would have been for any abuse survivors. Then again, the image they kept showing of her mom and the cigarettes made me squirm, too. ‘Cause my mind went THERE, too. *shudder* It appalls (sp?) me what humans are capable of doing to their young….

    I really hope Kara isn’t a Cylon. I’m hoping the whole “ship of lights” thing is forthcoming, even if it was just a little weird on the first series. (Yeah, I vaguely remember it. 🙂 Hopefully, it will just heal some of her more painful character flaws, but leave her that brass ovaried, wise cracking, insanely talented pilot I know and adore. One can hope.

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