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Credit Where Credit Is Due

zuzu

Well, how ’bout that. Texas’ governor, Rick “Goodhair” Perry, has bypassed the legislature and issued an executive order requiring all schoolgirls to receive the HPV vaccine.

By employing an executive order, Perry sidestepped opposition in the Legislature from conservatives and parents’ rights groups who fear such a requirement would condone premarital sex and interfere with the way Texans raise their children.

Beginning in September 2008, girls entering the sixth grade — meaning, generally, girls ages 11 and 12 — will have to receive Gardasil, Merck & Co.’s new vaccine against strains of the human papillomavirus, or HPV.

Perry also directed state health authorities to make the vaccine available free to girls 9 to 18 who are uninsured or whose insurance does not cover vaccines. In addition, he ordered that Medicaid offer Gardasil to women ages 19 to 21.

Perry, a conservative Christian who opposes abortion and stem-cell research using embryonic cells, counts on the religious right for his political base. But he has said the cervical cancer vaccine is no different from the one that protects children against polio.

“The HPV vaccine provides us with an incredible opportunity to effectively target and prevent cervical cancer,” Perry said.

Bravo, Governor Perry. I like to think that Molly Ivins, who gave you the “Goodhair” moniker, would be proud. By making sure that Texas is the first state to mandate the vaccine — and back it up with state health funds — you’ve made it easier for other states to follow suit. Even in states like my own, where money, but not godbags, are the problem.

98 thoughts on Credit Where Credit Is Due

  1. The problem is, parents can opt out if their narrow, suffocating, misogynist zealotry dictates that girls who get the vaccine will become sluts.

  3. Stuff like this drives me nuts. How does giving a ten year old girl a shot give her any “message”? All you have to say is, “We’re giving you a vaccination.” You don’t even have to mention how one might contract HPV if it makes you uncomfortable. Hopefully there will be more common sense in some other states.

  4. I strongly suspect that 99% of the godbags who yell and scream about how this promotes promiscuity will quietly make sure that their own daughters get the vaccine. After all–if she contracts HPV, it’s going to be because of some awful circumstance outside of her control, and not because she’s a dirty slut.

  5. Stuff like this drives me nuts. How does giving a ten year old girl a shot give her any “message”? All you have to say is, “We’re giving you a vaccination.” You don’t even have to mention how one might contract HPV if it makes you uncomfortable.

    Hello. Nose. On.

    Nobody told me, when I had my pre-kindergarten shots, just how I might contract whatever it is they were vaccinating me against, just that I was getting a shot that would help keep me from getting sick later.

    And then I got a lollipop.

    In fact, the only time I can recall ever really hearing in any sort of detail about the transmission of whichever disease I was being vaccinated against was in college, when it turned out that maybe the MMR vaccine from the early 70s didn’t work so well. And since we already had a student on campus who’d DIED from measles, nobody gave the shots a second thought.

  6. Good for Perry, but I can’t help wondering if Merck slipped his campaign fund a few bucks.

    Oh, they did. According to the linked article, Merck’s PAC gave his gubernatorial campaign $6000.

    But you know what? At this point, i don’t give a shit. Texas politics is corrupt as all hell anyway, so i’m glad it actually worked to the benefit of the people for once.

    At least a little bit to the benefit of the people, anyways…i’m still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

  7. Personally, I am amazed at the lack of discussion around safety issues. I am adamantly against requiring the vaccine, and I’m far from being a godbag. I simply don’t like the idea of requiring young girls to be guinea pigs for a relatively new vaccine. Yes, it’s been tested and approved, but certainly the FDA doesn’t have a perfect track record of only approving things that are safe (Thalidomide, anyone?). I tend to avoid any medication that’s brand spanking new until a few years go by and the effects become more known. Now certainly some people feel it’s safe and should get it, but I don’t like requiring parents to give their child something potentially unsafe. It seems like I have not seen much discussion of this on blogs – I’ve seen some, but most of what I read is “either you support mandatory HPV vaccination or you’re a slut-shaming purity-ball-attending wingnut.”

  9. Snerk. “Betsy Hart” reminds me of “Busty Hart,” and I know you, as a former Connecticut sportswriter type, know what I mean by that.

  10. Oh, good!

    I also learned the a Planned Parenthood Express near my SO’s home in Massachusetts will actually give the vaccine to old maids like me (years past age 26) as well as men. When I visit next, I think I will see about getting it, if I can scare up the funds (doubt my insurance will cover it).

  11. Ivy, just to clarify:

    Thanks to Frances Oldham Kelsey, the US FDA never approved Thalidomide during the 1960s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide

    It was approved and used elsewhere, and used “investigationally” in the US. But nope, not one of the FDAs mistakes. (That’s not to say the FDA never makes mistakes, but Thalidomide they handled very well, thanks to Kelsey.) (It was approved for some treatment in 2006, but limited, as I read it.)

  12. Yes, it’s been tested and approved, but certainly the FDA doesn’t have a perfect track record of only approving things that are safe (Thalidomide, anyone?)

    Not to be a nitpicker, but Thalidomide wasn’t approved in the United States until 1998, and that only to treat a specific complication of leprosy. All of the birth defect problems with Thalidomide happened in Europe and Asia, but it was held up long enough here by the FDA for the problems to become apparent and it was never approved.

    Not saying that the FDA doesn’t have its problems, especially in these days of Vioxx and other drugs that were approved too quickly, but Thalidomide ain’t one of them.

  13. Back on topic … this came up on a completely different board and I was a little frightened at how many women insisted that they should be the sole arbiters of what their children are exposed to. Never mind, say, the fact that the protection of herd immunity breaks down if not enough kids are vaccinated — they read something on the internet once about vaccinations being dangerous, so their little Tootie mustn’t be exposed to them!

    Which is why we’re now experiencing outbreaks of stuff like outbreaks of the mumps in 10 Midwestern states last year.

    People make me mad sometimes. Grr.

  14. Mnemosyne,
    I actually hate anti-vaccination weirdos about as much as I hate anti-choice weirdos. They’re putting the entire country at risk for preventable diseases because they don’t want to admit that sometimes, there just isn’t an answer. Sometimes, kids are born with autism, and there’s just nobody to blame.

    I think that some of it is related to religious thinking — there’s always someone looking out for you, so there’s always a “reason.” Unfortunately, in reality, sometimes things happen for no reason, or no reason we’ve figured out yet. But they can’t get their heads around this, so look for someone/something else to blame.

    Herd immunity just flies right over their head. Let’s face it, science obviously is not top on these people’s list of priorities.

  15. Herd immunity just flies right over their head. Let’s face it, science obviously is not top on these people’s list of priorities.

    The counter-argument to this is that science is not at the top of the FDA’s priority list under this administration. There is a fair amount of criticism from the scientific community that the FDA has become an ideological organization, and is failing to to protect the safety of health consumers.

    I’m glad this vaccine is on the market, but a well-justified skepticism as to the current FDA approval process is certainly warranted.

  16. I think that people who are anti-all-vaccinations are pretty idiotic, but I don’t like what happened with the combined vaccine. No one was doing the math on how much mercury was contained in these combined vaccines, given to toddlers (and yes, developmentally, there is a difference between a 10 year old’s brain and a 18 month old’s brain). Rather than conduct an open investigation once the question of the linkage between the combined vaccine and autism had been raised, the medical research industry and government officials chose to hold a “retreat” in a remote resort without any journalists. Their findings alarmed them enough that, following the retreat, they went into full cover-up mode. A little over a year later, September 11th offered them the opportunity to insert an item into the Patriot Act protecting vaccination developers from lawsuits. More about this here and here.

    OK, now that I’ve gotten that off my chest, I want to point out that it’s not like the only source of mercury was thimerosal. If these parents are truly worried about what elements vaccines are introducing to their child’s body, they should be fighting tooth and nail for better environmental regulations and biodiversity. And they need to understand that there is a difference between vaccinations and germophobia–it’s not like vaccinating your kids are just breeding stronger versions of the disease.

    I really don’t think that this is what those Godbags are worried about. Do you really think that they’ve got their kids on organic diets, and that they all drive fuel-efficient cars to lower the amount of carcinogens that the kiddies are exposed to? Me neither. I’ve heard them wield the “what are we injecting into our kids” argument before, and believe me, it’s awkward. They’ve seized on what I consider to be a justified but misunderstood concern among parents and are making an awkward use of hiding their real issues behind it. We’ve seen this sort of selective use of issues before.

    Don’t let them obfuscate the issue. This is not about the risks of vaccinations, anymore than our trip to Afghanistan was about burqas.

  17. Here’s the problem, Ponygirl — countries like Denmark that removed thimerosal from vaccines saw NO decrease in autism cases. None. In fact, they saw a small increase. But it’s now become an article of faith that it must be the thimerosal, and that’s all people focus on rather than, say, environmental causes. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the outbreak in the Midwest was of mumps — the second M in the MMR vaccine — considering the fear surrounding that specific vaccine.

    That said, I think what’s going to happen is that the Godbags are going to make common cause with the anti-vaccine nutjobs and get this shut down, all in the name of parental rights. Because who cares how many other people’s kids die as long as your little Madison is firmly under your control?

  18. Speaking of purity balls, even conservative columnist Betsy Hart thinks they’re demeaning to girls/women:

    And she gets at one of the things that’s really been bugging me about all of this.

    Besides, I can’t help but wonder if a single-minded focus on virginity is an ironic, and unintended way, of sexualizing youth in a different way.

    The whole purity ball thing, and the modesty survey mentioned before both show an absolute fixation on sex and the girl’s sexual history and status. They pour all that attention onto the girl as a sex object, and how she’s percieved sexually, while she’s still quite young. That can’t be healthy.

    A girl who has so much of her life defined by her relation to sex, with purity pledges, obsessing over the sexual implications of every outfit and gesture, thinking the point of having normal non-sexual interests is to avoid sex, and carrying around that creepy symbolic locked locket (in which Daddy has the only key that can open it, and he holds it so it will stay unopened until he hands the key to her husband), is likely to view her identity in terms of sex. And if something happens where she doesn’t fit the “pure” role anymore (and in such a rigid role, there’s a lot of things a girl could do or have happen to her that would shatter the perfect image), then there’s a real danger of her following the “your identity is your sexual status” idea to the logical conclusion, and defining herself by her new “impure” state.

  20. I’ve always had this weird liking for Betsy Hart, especially after her raw and anguished column about her divorce and what that means for someone with her political views on marriage.

  21. Never thought I’d have anything good to say about my governor, but I’m mature enough to admit that I’m wrong. He did good.

  22. I can see a reason for mandating vaccination against measles, if you catch measles because you aren’t vaccinated and go to school you can spread it to other people.

    I can’t see why this order makes any sense. So far as I’m aware kids don’t catch HPV at school and even if they did these girls aren’t going to be giving boys cervical cancer.

  23. I’ve always had this weird liking for Betsy Hart, especially after her raw and anguished column about her divorce and what that means for someone with her political views on marriage.

    Not me. That woman is convinced her shit doesn’t stink. I never experienced such intense schadenfreude as I did when I read that her husband dumped her.

  24. I’m a little concerned that this measure by Gov. Perry may be short-sighted. My concern is that with the vaccine being mandated and women thinking they have full protection against HPV infection, these women will be more likely to skip regular Pap tests.

    As I understand it, the vaccine is successful in reducing infection from 70% of HPV viral strains which are known to cause cervical cancer. But that still leaves a significant proportion of infections which can still occur even in women who are vaccinated. This is where Pap tests become very beneficial.

    So I guess I’m just saying that while the vaccine is a great start, it’s administration needs to be coupled with strong emphasis on regular Pap testing.

  25. I don’t know Betsy Hart’s whole body of work, but that one column was good. It comes from a very different perspective than my own, but it’s well-thought-out and makes good points.

    I always like when I find intelligent people who disagree with me strongly, and who criticize extreme or weird behaviour within their own movements. There was a great huge long series of blog posts, for instance, destroying the theology (and the terrible writing of course) of the Left Behind series, written from the perspective of an evangelical Christian who believes in the Rapture. I’d link it if I could remember where I found it.

  26. “I can’t see why this order makes any sense. So far as I’m aware kids don’t catch HPV at school and even if they did these girls aren’t going to be giving boys cervical cancer.” Uh, no but tehy pass on the virus to boys who in turn pass it on to ther girls who can get cervical cancer.

  27. There was a great huge long series of blog posts, for instance, destroying the theology (and the terrible writing of course) of the Left Behind series, written from the perspective of an evangelical Christian who believes in the Rapture. I’d link it if I could remember where I found it.

    I think you are talking about Fred at Slacktivist. http://slacktivist.typepad.com/

    In his most recent post he has reached page 250. I think you misremember his perspective, though. He is a liberal/left evangelical who does NOT believe in the Rapture

  29. I can’t see why this order makes any sense. So far as I’m aware kids don’t catch HPV at school and even if they did these girls aren’t going to be giving boys cervical cancer.

    1. The point is to get girls immunized before they hit puberty, and all the social stuff that tends to go with that. Making vaccinations required for school registration is just standard practice, it’s not particular to this vaccine, and has nothing to do with whether or not the HPV virus is likely to be spread at school.
    2. a. HPV is spread between boys and girls. In girls some strains can lead to cervical cancer. They may not lead to cervical cancer in boys, but boys can contract and be carriers of HPV, and can spread it to other girls.

    2. b. Cancer-causing strains of HPV affect males as well– they don’t cause cervical cancer in men, obviously, but they can cause penile cancer, and have also been linked to anal cancers, oral/throat cancers, and pharyngeal cancers. Basically, they can affect mucous membranes, regardless of whether they’re men’s or women’s. HPV is not a women-only virus.

  30. I can’t see why this order makes any sense. So far as I’m aware kids don’t catch HPV at school and even if they did these girls aren’t going to be giving boys cervical cancer.

    Well, you’re off on two counts. First, it doesn’t matter whether HPV can be transmitted in school or not; making the vaccination mandatory for girls entering 6th grade is simply making sure that all (or almost all) girls are vaccinated, since school attendance is required in this state until about age 16. Second, no shit females won’t be giving males cervical cancer. What will (and does) happen is that a female will give a male HPV, who will then give another female HPV, which could lead to cancer.

    Also, apparently you’d be surprised what happens at school…but that’s another conversation.

  31. Eh, I’m one that delays and selectively vaccinates. My kids are current on all immunizations (except prevnar) but they didn’t get them according to the schedules. (and yes, they eat almost nothing but organic foods and we drive fuel efficient vehicles when we drive) By being selective, they didn’t get the rotovirus vaccine that was later recalled.

    I have boys, so this law won’t affect me. I think it’s good in that insurance won’t cover anything that isn’t a required vaccination, but I don’t like being told what medications I *have* to put in my kids’ bodies.

    BTW – my cousin’s fully vaccinated kids started a pertussis epidemic at her school. And my fully vaccinated self has no measles titers (and I didn’t get my vaccine in the “early 70s” more like 78-79). My completely unscientific opinion is that we overwhelm the immune system by giving too many immunizations at once and some of them just don’t “take”.

    And I, like Pony, think it’s pretty shitty that they slipped in a provision in the patriot act to protect vaccine manufacturers from being sued. I personally know a family that had one child killed by a vaccine and the other child permanently brain damaged (they got their vaccines on the same day). Apparently they got a “bad batch” which was later recalled.

  32. Addressing Gloria’s concerns, I’d hope that the publicity surrounding the HPV vaccine would actually give the average woman more info than she already has re: how it works and how else you can get cervical cancer. It’s amazing the number of women who don’t know what a PAP test is actually for.

    Furthermore, I’d say the ‘skipping PAP tests because they’re painful’ thing would be much more of a problem in Canada (where I live) than in the US. Because while our healthcare system has plenty of problems, low-income people can still get a yearly check-up including PAP, and get it for free.

    And given that the number of uninsured people in the US is apparently rising, my biggest concern is that women who are living paycheque to paycheque will skip expensive preventative health care because if it’s a choice between making rent or feeding your kids versus spending the money on going to the doctor and having expensive tests done when you’re not even sick, those women are going to skip the annual check-up and PAP for economic reasons.

    Which could lead to more women getting the 30% of cervical cancers the HPV vaccine doesn’t prevent, because if you’re vaccinated and you’re living paycheque to paycheque, you may skip the test (but a lot of unvaccinated women are already not getting the test for financial reasons, so the overall rate of cancer would probably go down anyway), but I’d say that’s primarily an issue of resource allocation. Incidentally, it’s a hell of a lot cheaper to take the steps liable to make sure currently healthy people stay that way regardless of insurance status than treat them after they get preventable diseases.

    Also, if we’re looking at the Third World where the majority of women have no access to First World medical care and very few of them are getting a PAP once a year, hitting the 70% of cervical cancers the vaccine does protect against will make a big difference to mortality rates even if 30% are still occurring. Poor comfort to the 30% and their families, but a hell of a lot better than nothing.

    And in many parts of the world it’s not a choice between yearly PAP and vaccine, it’s a choice between vaccine and no protection at all. Note that you need money for such tests. You also need a stable populations that haven’t been displaced by war or hunger, and a reliable way of tracking women after the test so the results can be matched up with the patient. Plus, you need sterile conditions, modern equipment, and access to a medical lab.

  34. “First, it doesn’t matter whether HPV can be transmitted in school or not; making the vaccination mandatory for girls entering 6th grade is simply making sure that all (or almost all) girls are vaccinated, since school attendance is required in this state until about age 16. Second, no shit females won’t be giving males cervical cancer. What will (and does) happen is that a female will give a male HPV, who will then give another female HPV, which could lead to cancer.”

    If this is true, then why connect it to school at all? Why not just force everyone to be vaccinated – whether they’re in school or not – surely homeschoolers need protecting too? And if we’re worried about stopping the disease being passed on to girls, then why just pick on girls and do it at two removes? Why not make boys get vaccinated?

    If you want to dose everyone up on HPV vaccine for their own good, there is no justification for limiting it to schoolchildren. If you want to stop people passing it on, there’s no justification for limiting it to girls. I can’t see that the order makes sense.

  35. While I acknowledge that Gov. Perry did a good thing, I don’t think it’s because he’s seen the light on anything. He just wants to be considered for the next VP. He’s been up to lots of non-Texas related, headline-grabbing stunts lately.

  37. Uh, because if it’s considered mandatory for school-aged kids, then private insurance plans are forced to cover it. Also, the vast majority of kids that age are in school, and that makes it a whole lot simpler.

    Mandatory in this sense does not in point of fact mean that if you don’t want your kid to get the vaccine, the Health Dept will get a court order compelling you to do so. There are still ways of opting out, for parents who really want to. My mom opted her kids out of at least one vaccination that took place during the school years. I seem to recall she had to jump through some hoops in terms of paperwork, but she got it done, and we weren’t barred from school or anything.

    Mandatory just means it’s the default, sort of like negative-option billing. It’ll happen unless a parent doesn’t want it to and takes steps to stop it. Which means the majority of kids will get it, because most parents don’t feel passionately enough on the subject to stop their kids from getting a vaccine, especially when it’s free. Which is probably why other vaccines have long been organised through schools, because busy parents might forget to get their kids to the doctor for booster shots if they had to arrange it rather than just acquiesce to a public health arrangement which doesn’t even require booking an appointment with the pediatrician.

  39. And if we’re worried about stopping the disease being passed on to girls, then why just pick on girls and do it at two removes? Why not make boys get vaccinated?

    Also, it hasn’t been tested on boys yet. Boys and girls have some physiological differences. Not as many as grown men and women, but public health experts aren’t going to just assume if it’s safe for girls, it must be safe for boys too. That’s what the testing and approval process is for. Not to mention the fact that since boys are merely carriers, it makes a lot more sense to target the group that’s actually at risk of death or serious illness from HPV-caused cancers.

    Of course, if it becomes ubiquitous for girls, fewer boys will become carriers in the first place, because when they do become sexually active, chances are they do so with a young woman who’s already been vaccinated back before SHE became sexually active. That’d make an interesting study actually. Test a bunch of, say, 19 year olds right now, male and female, for the virus. Wait until the first generation in which the vast majority of girls got vaccinated in elementary school hits the age of 19, and test both boys and girls for the virus.

  40. I just can’t believe this happened in Texas. My world is turning upsidedown. And no one will convince me that $6,000 from Merck had anything to do with it. Maybe the Gov has some sense — and a few daughters.

  41. Zuzu says:

    Rick “Goodhair” Perry, has bypassed the legislature and issued an executive order requiring all schoolgirls to receive the HPV vaccine… Bravo, Governor Perry.

    (emphasis mine)

    OK, so when an executive-type person issues an executive order that bypasses the courts and implements warrantless wiretapping, you are all up in arms, but when an executive-type person gets (perhaps) a sweet deal from bigh pharma and issues a just as illegal, just as much overstepping-of-authority, a sweeping mandate on our future, the children (!!!elevendee!11!), well that’s perfectly OK, because you support the ends in this particular case.

    Or maybe I just got that wrong somewhere. Do you mind explaining yourself?

  42. Raincitygirl, you are right about poor women not getting pap smears…but I think the real problem is precisely just how are we po’ girls supposed to get (expensive,costly and financially draining) follow-up treatment if there is a positive outcome when we can’t afford even the tests. What good is the damn test if there are no options for after? Nice to be in Canada, not so nice here. I think many poor women would just prefer not to know as opposed to feeling even more helpless….Besides I have seen too many friends and relatives die broke despite (from?) chemo. I will take my chances with essaic and chinese herbs if it comes to it…This breakthrough treatment w/ DCA is verry interesting as well…
    As for the vaccine, (as someone who will always look over their shoulder because of a proior HPV infection) I do hope it works. I think the ‘it will turn girls into sluts’ furor over it was rather stupid, but requiring women to have it (especially as it is new as it is and given the merck connection…) smacks of irresponsible paternalism as well…

  43. Do you mind explaining yourself?

    Not at all.

    Ordering warrantless wiretapping is breaking the existing law. You know, the one that requires warrants be obtained through the FISC prior to wiretapping.

    Ordering the state to pay for vaccines appears to be well within the executive powers of the governor to make decisions about public health.

    Really, do keep up.

  44. nik, did you never wonder why we require children to get vaccinated against Hepatitis B?

    And speaking as somebody whose law firm sues companies like Merck and who trusts Big Pharma about as far as I can throw a piano–my kids are vaccinated and “vaccines cause TEH AUTISM!!!1!!!!” make me reach for my gun. If your kids are autistic it’s probably because it runs in your family, not because evil scientists poisoned your kids.

    By the way, Merck probably is giving Perry money because they want him to keep shutting down lawsuits against things like, oh, Vioxx. They’re not going to get rich on Gardasil.

  45. More overmedicalization of women’s bodies – not a good thing in my world. They should test boys and vaccinate boys, if they are going to force more medicine on us. Of course, they have not tested boys, because male bodies are not assumed to be already sick. They are impervious and “carriers” rather than ill. Look at the larger problems for women caused by such measures: increased surveillance and conscription of female autonomy, rather than the gains against one disease.

  46. More overmedicalization of women’s bodies – not a good thing in my world. They should test boys and vaccinate boys, if they are going to force more medicine on us. Of course, they have not tested boys, because male bodies are not assumed to be already sick.

    Or, um, they decided to vaccinate girls because girls are the ones who will die if they’re infected with certain strains of HPV, whereas boys will not die.

    I’m as feminist as the next woman, but let’s have some fucking common sense here.

  47. I am using fucking common sense, by suggesting that “they” target girls because it emphasizes that female bodies need doctors and medicine (surveillance and control) more than male bodies. These issues are bigger than the disease and vaccinating boys (once the vaccine is proven safe for them) will actually address the herd immunity (more vaccinated fewer infected no?) spoken of above.

    Treating women as vastly differently than men has been working out great for us so far, huh?

  50. Practically speaking, testing this vaccine on men would be difficult because the virus is often asymptomatic in men and there are no reliable tests to identify if a man has a latent infection.

    I’m uncomfortable on the safety issue. And no, this is not an, “MMR causes autism! the sky is falling!” complaint. Simply put, in the last decade we’ve seen a number of drugs go to market that have had significantly harmful side effects, or differences in effect with populations that were under-represented in trial studies. So personally, I’d be very cautious.

  51. You are missing the point. We should always be suspicious when “but they are going to DIE” trumps common sense. Just because people might not all catch a particular disease doesn’t call for selective immunization, esp. when it comes to communicable conditions like HPV. Immunizing widely is probably the best idea anyway. I too am suspicious when people start trying to protect me from my weakness by segregation and different treatment.

    And CERVICAL CANCER is one of many, many things that women die of. Heart disease is number one, and thus usually gets my all caps treatment. Such “womanly” diseases like cervical, breast, and ovarian cancers are often used as social bludgeons, ESPECIALLY when “but they KILL” is being bandied about.

    “Common sense” doesn’t always work when the world gets turned around. Beware people segregating you into lines that lead into institutions.

  52. Well said, Mnemosyne. Anything that reduces women’s risk from certain cancers is a good thing in my books, since I already buried a friend with breast cancer when I was only 31.

    I have to ask one other question of anti-vaccine advocates–which is worse, an autistic child or a blind & deaf one made so by a preventable infection?

  53. It is true that without boys and men vaccinated the efficacy of ‘herd immunity’ may be compromised. Although it depends on the disease, one can start running into problems once even only 10% aren’t vaccinated. Of course that’s probably for highly communicable diseases. Still, for most vaccines, one wants at least 80% of people vaccinated. This may be a special case. I hadn’t thought of it before, but now I think that Tiny has a good point. The fact that they chose to test the vaccine only on females is problematic. I do not agree that this fact outweighs the benefits of having a vaccine that will prevent cervial cancer.

  54. I’m generally sceptical of drug companies, but I don’t think we have much to worry about with one shot (or even two or three shot) vaccines which are given to children. Not enought profit, too much risk of scandal (even if they’re been protected from lawsuits). The things that you need to look out for are the drugs that people need to take every day for years to manage chronic conditions, and of course, weight-loss drugs. That’s where the money is.

  56. columbusqueen: I have to ask one other question of anti-vaccine advocates–which is worse, an autistic child or a blind & deaf one made so by a preventable infection?

    Well, I think this is unfairly linking the two vaccines. MMR (which I have, and check on a booster every decade) has about 30 years of mass use. (I think I was one of the last cohorts to not automatically get it.) Polio, 50 years, and some rocky side-effects early. Pertussis, about 30 years, although we have a cohort of adults with possibly weakened immunity who could benefit from boosters.

    The HPV vaccine has been on the market for less than a year, from a company with a history of cutting corners in regards to reporting risk, and approved by an agency that has been ideologically gutted over the last eight years.

    Perhaps I am a bit more paranoid than the average person, but personally I think that enthusiasm for this vaccine should be mediated a bit by informed and critical consent. I’m not saying give the vaccine or don’t give the vaccine to your kids. What I am saying is make your own decision after hitting the research at the library.

  57. Which is why we’re now experiencing outbreaks of stuff like outbreaks of the mumps in 10 Midwestern states last year.

    My mom works at the high school in my hometown. They’ve had whooping cough outbreaks there. Makes us wonder what’s next.

    I wonder what these crunchy-granola anti-vaccine moms are going to do when li’l Macrame ends up in an iron lung.

  58. “Betsy Hart” reminds me of “Busty Hart,” and I know you, as a former Connecticut sportswriter type, know what I mean by that.

    Oh, God, yes. The unofficial mascot of the Celtics.

  59. As far as I’ve heard (and I may be wrong here), testing is underway on boys for this vaccine. I think it was probably a case of “get the vaccine to the people it will protect MOST” rather than a “girls’/womens’ bodies are weak and need more intervention” issue. I’m not going to say that hasn’t been a factor before, because it has (childbirth was and in some cases still is pathologized way more than necessary) — I’m just saying I don’t think its the case here. And that theory isn’t supported by the fact that MOST medical research to date has been done on groups of white males. This is a primary reason that heart disease in women goes unnoticed and untreated, right up to and including heart attacks, since most women don’t get the “classic” shooting pains or gripping sensations. Fortunately, the medical community seems to have realized its error, and more research is being done on health issues as they pertain to women, and also ethnic groups. (Hey, shared ancestry = shared gene pool, which MAY = medical differences between said ethnic groups with regards to type of health issues and response to said health issues. It’s worth checking into in my book, as long as the research resources are there.)

    I don’t think vaccinating just the girls is an issue at this point. I AM a little leery about not knowing the long term consequences of the vaccine, but frankly, we have that issue with almost all medical advances. At some point we have to make the decision as to whether the benefits outweigh the risks. I’m more worried about the long term consequences of things like LASIK surgery and breast implants — things that are *totally* unnecessary from a medical standpoint. (Don’t get me started on LASIK — I know it’s been good for a lot of people, but I got to type the letters about the ones who had complications. I’ll keep my glasses, thanks.)

    BTW: my chiropractor is very anti-vaccination and has the propaganda all over her office. I’m very glad to hear that studies have been done elsewhere more or less disproving the vaccinations/autism “link”. I’m very glad they got the mercury OUT of the vaccinations, mind — I think it was probably very stupid to have it in there in the first place — but it is a relief to know that, at least at this time, that is just a case of jumping to scientific conclusions.

  60. I wasn’t speaking to the HPV vaccine specifically as much as the general tendency to be anti-vaccine that I see becoming more & more common.

    It’s all to the well & good to say, “Do your own research,” but what about the absent historical context? Too many people today have no real inkling of how quickly an infectious epidemic can turn into a horror show, which always happened until the mid 20th century. (And again, I’m not talking about HPV as much as stuff like measles, scarlet fever, etc.)

    I guess I just believe that the ultimate gains made from vaccinations overall far outweigh the risks, & that this will prove to be as true of the HPV vaccine as it is of others.

  61. Um…puzzled as to why my comments are being held up. Am I missing something?

    yes. It’s called a spam filter. It catches new posters.

    I realize that the FDA has been ideologically gutted, but given what this vaccine prevents, you’d think the prevailing ideological slant would actually mean this vaccine got MORE scrutiny, not less. Less scrutiny would apply to things like weight-loss drugs that cause heart problems and oily anal leakage. Whereas more scrutiny is given stuff like Plan B.

    the fact that MOST medical research to date has been done on groups of white males. This is a primary reason that heart disease in women goes unnoticed and untreated, right up to and including heart attacks, since most women don’t get the “classic” shooting pains or gripping sensations.

    That’s what killed my mother.

  62. My mom works at the high school in my hometown. They’ve had whooping cough outbreaks there. Makes us wonder what’s next.

    I’ve seen several pertussis outbreaks. I personally know a lot of kids who have gotten pertussis. Every single one of them had been vaccinated against pertussis. And the places with the outbreaks were generally in places where vaccinations were done as a matter of course.

    Can you, perhaps, pick a different example? And maybe be a little less inflammatory while doing it? Remember, it wasn’t that long ago that they found out that a particular rotavirus vaccine caused an uncommon type of bowel obstruction. I think looking at vaccines with a critical eye is good, not bad.

    My pediatrician when presented with an obviously sick child wanted to give him the vaccine anyway. Despite the CDC’s recommendations that vaccines only be given to healthy children. Then, despite the fact that my child had had most of his vaccines, told me that if I didn’t bring my child back for it within the next month, he’d report me to DHS. I switched pediatricians.

  63. As I said earlier, I’m one of the first people who would get kicked off a Vioxx jury panel, and of course it’s wise to expect extensive safety and effectiveness tests of vaccines.

    But the opposition to Gardasil is not “I’d love my daughter to have this, I just don’t trust Merck”. It’s “if you make all girls have this vaccine they’ll turn into sluts”. These are people who feel that fear of catching an STD is a healthy and proper means of controlling sexual behavior, and who see victims of rape or infidelity as necessary casualties of their punishment fetish.

  64. Personally, I am amazed at the lack of discussion around safety issues. I am adamantly against requiring the vaccine, and I’m far from being a godbag. I simply don’t like the idea of requiring young girls to be guinea pigs for a relatively new vaccine. Yes, it’s been tested and approved, but certainly the FDA doesn’t have a perfect track record of only approving things that are safe (Thalidomide, anyone?). I tend to avoid any medication that’s brand spanking new until a few years go by and the effects become more known.

    It feels great when I find a person online endowed with enough foresight and common sense to see what a tragedy something like this might become.

    And who the fuck does this Texas governor think he is, “bypassing” the legislature and forcing my daughter under the needle? Ever hear of democracy? Ever hear of freedom of choice? People like this both appall and terrify me. What does he dream when he beds down at night? Invading Europe or something?

  65. I really hope that the above is sarcasm I’m just not detecting through the internet.

    Seriously…parents can opt out. The whole point of making these things mandatory is to force insurance (and Medicaid) to cover it so that people who don’t have a couple hundred to fork out for routine medical care can receive it.

  67. It’s one thing to want to question — it’s another thing to want to remain ingnant. A lot of these “new” posters fall into the latter category. Honestly: If a virus was found to cause testicular cancer, would we mandate that all women get it? There are plenty of diseases and disorders that selectively target different ethnic groups. The fact that these diseases target based on sex and/or race has nothing at all to do with civil rights — but how we choose to treat the fact that they do has everything to do with civil rights.

    First of all–mandating the HPV vaccination for children entering public schools is going to mean jack squat for nut job godbags, as they tend to homeschools their children to keep them out of the satanic public schools. If you homeschool your child.

    Second of all–if the cure for testicular cancer came out tomorrow, and it was found that the precursor to testicular cancer was a virus that could be vaccinated against, who the hell do you think should get first dibs on the vaccine? Maybe people who actually have testicles, ya think? Sure, fine, give it to the girls too so that they can’t become carriers, but when the vaccine is new to the market, and the manufacturer may have more limited supplies, wasting the vaccine on people who aren’t even going to be positively impacted by having the vaccine makes about as much sense as putting the doggie sweater on the Alaskan Malamute and sending the Chihuahua out into 10 degree weather starkers.

    Finally — the godbag’s own assertions regarding this vaccine, that it will somehow encourage young girls to become promiscuous, can’t even finish their own circle of logic. Considering how Integrity Balls very noticeably avoid holding men accountable to remain virgins until their wedding night (unlike women), a good virgin Christian girl (who didn’t get the vaccine because she was a good Christian girl who wouldn’t skank around), could easily marry a good Christian boy, who is still a good Christian boy even though he “stumbled” along the way and picked up HPV, which he will then transmit to his loving wife, and 15 years later he gets to watch her waste away from cervical cancer, leaving their 12 children motherless.

  68. And who the fuck does this Texas governor think he is, “bypassing” the legislature and forcing my daughter under the needle? Ever hear of democracy? Ever hear of freedom of choice? People like this both appall and terrify me. What does he dream when he beds down at night? Invading Europe or something?

    Mr. Godwin, please pick up the white courtesy phone. You have a violation on line 2.

    Gosh, Marksman, haven’t you heard of public health? There are all kinds of things that kids have to be vaccinated against in order to attend public schools. Parents can still opt out.

  70. Zuzu says:

    Ordering the state to pay for vaccines appears to be well within the executive powers of the governor to make decisions about public health.

    I think the order went a little beyond just using state funds to buy vaccines for people who can’t pay for them.

    Maybe I’m totally misunderstanding the word “mandate”?

    Wow, is there any limit to this fantastical magical power that the governor has to make law, (as long as it does not conflict with existing law)?

    Oh, and which part of the Texas Constitution granted the governor these powers?

    Oh yea, the linked article:

    Perry spokeswoman Krista Moody … said the Texas Constitution permits the governor, as head of the executive branch, to order other members of the executive branch to adopt rules like this one.

    Well, if the governor’s spokeswoman says the governor has those powers, i guess that’s OK by me.

    I like your explanation. That must be why Bush created the new category “unlawful enemy combatants”, which didn’t exist before, so there were no existing laws that his executive orders would counteract. I feel better now.

    Maybe later on you can explain about “signing statements” too.

  71. SM, if you’re going to troll, at least be interesting.

    And go look up FISA. Which has nothing to do with unlawful enemy combatants. Because they’re not bugging Gitmo, they’re bugging the phones of US citizens in the United States.

    Try to keep the abuses of power by the Bush administration straight, hm?

  72. OK, I’ll leave my Bush examples. (“Unlawful enemy combatants” was a separate example from the warrantless wiretaps)

    The Legislative branch passes laws.

    The Judiciary branch interprets the laws.

    The Executive branch enforces the laws. Sometimes the head of the executive branch needs to convey directives to executive branch minions. That’s what executive orders are for. They aren’t suppose to be used to “bypass(ed) the legislature”. It’s an abuse of power.

    It’s OK to come out in favor of beta testing this vaccine on Texas schoolgirls, but at least be honest about the abuse of power.

  73. Public health is an executive department function. Executive orders are fine for executive department functions. Even when an executive does something like sign a global gag rule.

    See how easy that is?

  74. And (obviously, correct me if I’m wrong, zuzu), by “fine” she means legal and generally recognized standard practice. It’s not a comment on morality.

  75. Right.

    And “signing statements” are not executive orders. They’re an attempt to circumvent the law as written by saying it doesn’t apply when Bush doesn’t want it to apply. Very different than issuing an executive order which is within the power of the executive to issue.

  76. Wow, there’s some people here with some serious aggression towards anyone who dares question the almighty medical science. Just because I worry about safety I don’t understand vaccines and blame them for all ills such as autism? Hardly. I just want to give them a little longer. How many things are later found to have bad effects? Think about Vioxx and the recent lawsuits. Think about the ongoing back and forth on hormone replacement. And to the people who said that those who worry about vaccines probably aren’t taking other considerations such as feeding their kids organic – think again. I don’t have kids yet, but I myself eat organics and when I have kids, if I’m worried about vaccines I’m sure as hell not feeding them pesticides. To the people who are completely convinced that the only possible objection to this vaccine is the religious wingnut “it will make girls slutty!” objection, why are you so convinced that those of us who tell you it’s a safety issue are lying? I have had a bad vaccine reaction a few years ago that took some recovery. I am worried about safety because this is a very new medication. Period. Why is that so hard to believe?

    See, this is one of the things that drives me crazy about blogs – you say one thing and people start telling you what you think on a bunch of other issues. And they’re usually wrong.

  77. Ivy, don’t vaccinate your kids if you don’t want to. But don’t be surprised if herd immunity is compromised, either.

  78. And to the people who said that those who worry about vaccines probably aren’t taking other considerations such as feeding their kids organic – think again.

    Ivy — Are you a self-proclaimed Godbag then? Because my actual quote was:

    I really don’t think that this is what those Godbags are worried about. Do you really think that they’ve got their kids on organic diets, and that they all drive fuel-efficient cars to lower the amount of carcinogens that the kiddies are exposed to? Me neither.

    Please explain yourself.

  80. MPonyG,

    “Honestly: If a virus was found to cause testicular cancer, would we mandate that all women get it?”

    Mandate that women get the virus? I hope not. 🙂

    The virus (hpv) is different from cervical cancer and hpv is contracted and spread by both men and women; it also causes both penile and anal cancers. Thus, the >b> vaccination should be for both sexes.

  81. It’s one thing to want to question — it’s another thing to want to remain ingnant. A lot of these “new” posters fall into the latter category.

    Thanks Ponygirl. I’ll make sure I try to “avoid” “making” “mistakes” in your presence.

    Yes, I’m a “new” poster, but I don’t find myself particularly “ignant” on this subject, since my partner does research on HPV as well as other gendered diseases (and yes, I read and discuss some of that research with her). But that’s just my little opinion.

  82. Ponygirl, you and others are implying that ANYONE who objects to the vaccine for ANY reason is a godbag. So, no, I am not one, I am replying to the fact that people keep insisting that anyone who opposes to the vaccine must be one. That’s what’s really getting me here. It’s one thing if people want to disagree with me about the safety issue – I said in my original post that I know some people aren’t worried, and they should go get the vaccine. However, I am worried about safety. But instead of accepting that that is my concern, what’s happening here is a few people insisting that safety can’t POSSIBLY be my concern, that it must be some sort of concern about the fact that this vaccine is for an STD. I don’t appreciate people saying I’m an idiot or a hypocrite or liar because they don’t like my ideas. Disagree with my ideas, but stop acting like you know what my religious beliefs are, what food I eat, or what car I drive because of one comment.

  84. FWIW, I’m getting ready to take some mothers to task because they won’t let their daughters get it solely because they see it as giving their girls a free pass. Because clearly it isn’t the fear of chlamydia, syphillis, gonorrhea, HIV and pregnancy keeping their daughters from having sex. Nope, it’s just the fear of HPV that is keeping them from having sex.

    I’m very glad I don’t have girls. Because I could never in good conscience give my daughter a shot as new as this. One that hasn’t been tested on nearly large enough a population. Also, the testing they did is fairly controversial – the placebo shot was not a saline shot as is usually given, but instead a shot containing an aluminum variant. So, yeah, big surprise that the placebo group experienced similar side effects.

    I’m not against vaccines, I’m against the current schedule. It’s too many, too close together.

  85. FWIW, I’m getting ready to take some mothers to task because they won’t let their daughters get it solely because they see it as giving their girls a free pass.

    Why just mothers?

  86. Zuzu, that “get over yourself” comment was just plain rude. In my original post, I did nothing but express my opinion and was shouted down, accused of holding all sorts of other opinions I don’t hold. Apparently, open discussion is not welcome. I doubt you care, but you have just completely lost a devoted two-year reader (and infrequent commenter) on this blog.

  87. In my original post, I did nothing but express my opinion and was shouted down, accused of holding all sorts of other opinions I don’t hold. Apparently, open discussion is not welcome.

    Shouted down? Huh? Take a deep breath and realize that (a) you are not under attack and (b) whether you like it or not, there is a whacked out crowd of anti-vaccination folks who are still chanting about mercury and autism when the damn vaccines don’t even contain therimsol (which I know I have misspelled, damnit).

    Those people would be the target here, not you.

  88. But Ivy, in your subsequent comments, you existentially whined that nobody could possibly understaaaaaannnnd you.

    And, ergo, the “get over yourself” comment.

    You can’t win if you dont’ play, but you can’t play if you whine, either.

    BTW, I have a nephew with autism, so I know the whole “vaccines cause autism” argument. And hey! Turns out Grandpa had very similar symptoms to my nephew, but Grandpa’s life was far more regimented than my nephew’s, by necessity, so his symptoms went unnoticed until the nephew’s diagnosis made family members recognize Grandpa’s patterns as similar to my nephew’s.

  89. Ponygirl, you and others are implying that ANYONE who objects to the vaccine for ANY reason is a godbag.

    No, we’re flat-out saying that the majority of the opposition to mandatory HPV vaccination is godbaggery, not concern about the safety of a new vaccine. Organized opposition to mandatory vaccination of Gardasil is not coming from people who distrust Merck. It’s coming from religio-political groups like Focus on the Family who think that contracting HPV is a useful tool to shame and frighten their daughters, and don’t want that little tool taken away from them.

  90. Zuzu, just mothers because it’s an email list for mothers. I don’t know the fathers in this case. I guess I don’t exactly know the mothers in this case (I do know one IRL and seriously dislike her).

    I think it’s one thing to disagree with a vaccination because you question the safety. I’m there.

    But to say that you disagree with this one because you see it as giving girls a license to have sex? Well, that’s just so stupid. Because, like I said, it doesn’t protect against HIV and other STDs and pregnancy. And if the fear of those don’t keep girls from having sex, the fear of the slight chance of cervical cancer sure isn’t doing it.

  91. I’m always tempted to ask such people “Was fear of catching HPV and developing cervical cancer what kept you from having sex until marriage?” Because not only is the answer almost certainly “no, of course not,” but chances are the second premise is also false.

  92. gaia — that’s sort of how I feel. I don’t really agree with it, but I understand it. The problem is that these godbags are flailing around for an excuse that doesn’t boil down to “we want our daughters to die for daring to have sex.” So they’ve seized on the anti-vaccination philosophy. While HIPAA prevents confirmation, I’d bet dollars to donuts that these people suddenly all a-flutter over the HPV vaccine have their kids entirely up to code on everything else.

  93. Wow, am I like banned or something? This is the second time a post hasn’t made it out of moderation and zuzu also called me a troll for the first time too. If you don’t want me to contribute to the discussion on your blog, all you need to do is write me a nice email at the valid email address I’ve always included with my comments.

    I actually think I’m right on topic here. The linked article said “bypassed the Legislature”. Zuzu’s initial blog post said “bypassed the Legislature”. Yet when questioned, the claim is now that this is a normal and customary power of the executive branch. Um, okay.

    My last comment was this: Executive Order 9066. Clearly and example of an E.O. that went too far.

    Well it seems that some of y’all are perfectly OK with government overstepping it’s authority when the you are in favor of the ends pursued. Oddly enough, this is exactly the problem I have with many of the people y’all are fond of calling “godbags”. With, you know, different types of stuff pursued.

    Can y’all see the difference between an E.O. by, say, the president ordering all of his staff in the military to get a Anthrax vaccine and a different E.O. by the governor requiring all these schoolgirls to get this HPV vaccine?

    The difference is that all those military people work for the president, and, (theoretically at least), we are not serfs, and we don’t take orders from the governor. Even if there is a way to opt out.

    For those who believe the “public good” health angle, why has no one yet mandated that everyone get a flu shot? Pneumonia is a sickness that you can catch without even contacting an infected person.

    In the past, the standard has been that the state can step in and override a person’s medical choice and privacy in the case of highly infectious diseases. The types that cause pandemics. It seems that some of y’all are in favor of lowering that standard.

    Would this new lower standard allow the mandatory testing and relocation of people who are HIV positive? Why not? Isn’t that a public health issue too? Wouldn’t it be effective?

    And why do I have to keep reminding you supporters of Roe, which has it’s cornerstone in medical privacy, about people’s inherent medical rights?

  94. SM, now I’m telling you: get over yourself. We do sleep sometimes, you know. Believe it or not, we’re not constantly keeping an eye out for your comments just to leave them in the moderation queue. Chill the fuck out already.

    And I know this has been explained to you over and over. If I have to explain it to you AGAIN, I will ban you.

    In the meantime, read the actual text of the executive order at issue. And then go look up how government works sometime. It’s not my job to teach you the basics of government.

    Also, if you’re going to make arguments about particular executive orders, you’re going to have to provide a link. Just throwing out the number and asserting that it goes too far doesn’t work.

  95. — Because I could never in good conscience give my daughter a shot as new as this. One that hasn’t been tested on nearly large enough a population.

    So, just to stir the pot here (at least I’m admitting that’s what I’m doing), which population should new vaccines be tested upon? I honestly don’t know the specifics about this particular vaccines testing history, have no idea how large of a sample population they used, but I would have to assume that there are some guidelines set up for testing that would dictate more or less how large the beta test group would be. (Any research scientists, please feel free to correct me on this.)

    Seriously — *who* should new vaccines be tested upon? How many tests will make us feel safe giving out a new vaccine? I don’t trust the big drug companies as far as I can throw them (collectively), but at some point you have to trust that they are not out to intentionally injure.

    FWIW, I do think the vaccination schedule could be stretched out a bit, especially since there are several new ones since I was a kid. But I do think that having the vast majority of kids thoroughly vaccinated by the time they reach school is a Very Good Thing. I also think the reactions of some of the more religiously conservative groups out there are appalling. And I think they need to seriously consider that a) environmental and genetic factors are also at play with the “rise” in autism**, and b) protecting your daughter from something that can be contracted sexually is not giving her a “green light”. Molestation and rape happens, as much as we’d like to ignore it. And frankly, until we actually reach herd immunity and until the pressure to remain “pure” is as insistent on boys as it is on girls, there is a chance of her eventual husband having been infected somewhere along the line. I’d think the chance to protect your daughter from something as nasty as cervical cancer would outweigh the ideology. But what do I know? Y’know, being a godless Liberal and all. *sigh*

    /rant Sorry that got so long, everyone. I just think that there is in general an ignorance and a complacency about the childhood infectious diseases these days.

    **I do think that some of it may be due to diagnostic standards changing as we learn more about it, and more awareness of the more mild forms of it. I’d also be willing to give some credit to overstimulation of sensitive minds. But I am not a doctor, and haven’t done extensive research into the issues surrounding autism. I just know that there have been a number of sub-sets/related syndromes that have been recognized as more research has been done over the years.

  96. P.S.
    No, I don’t know how to use the block quotes functions. I’ve fooled around with them, and given up because I don’t seem to have the correct technical skills to make them work. 😛 Any help would be appreciated, even just pointing me at a web based manual/tutorial. Feel free to e-mail me said information to avoid cluttering up the blog. Or not, as you see fit. 😉

    Thanks.
    Love, Laurie
    Luddite and Technical Dinosaur

  97. Laurie, when you want to blockquote text, either highlight it and hit the “quote” button, or hit the quote button, paste the text, hit the quote button again (which will say “/quote” at this point) to close the tag, and go on your merry way.

  98. Thanks, zuzu! I think that may have been the one configuration I *didn’t* try. *sigh* I’ll do so from now on.

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