This is how you get people to go vegan

63 thoughts on This is how you get people to go vegan

1. She’s pretty much my hero. I love both of her cookbooks — and all of her cupcakes rule. I’m partial to the coconut lime.

2. When chickens stop producing eggs and cows stop producing milk, I will go vegan.

   Until that time, I’ll buy my organic free-range eggs and organic milk and be happy with it, thank you.

3. I want to quote the following from the second article:

   They noted that feeding animals for meat, dairy, and egg production requires growing some ten times as much crops as we’d need if we just ate pasta primavera, faux chicken nuggets, and other plant foods. On top of that, we have to transport the animals to slaughterhouses, slaughter them, refrigerate their carcasses, and distribute their flesh all across the country. Producing a calorie of meat protein means burning more than ten times as much fossil fuels–and spewing more than ten times as much heat-trapping carbon dioxide–as does a calorie of plant protein. The researchers found that, when it’s all added up, the average American does more to reduce global warming emissions by going vegetarian than by switching to a Prius.

   There are many, many people who eat meat and insist on organic produce b/c they object to petroleum-based fertilizers. Even organic meat needs to go to slaughter, be refrigerated, and be distributed. This is on top of all the petroleum used transporting that organic feed to the organic cows. Think of all the petroleum we could save if we just shipped grain to people instead.

4. Thank you for sharing, Frumious. I like to know that I’m doing my part to destroy the planet every day — it makes me feel powerful.

5. Whenever somebody points to ‘the average American’ my BS radar goes off the scale again. What are we comparing meat production to–the cost of Archer Daniels Midland manufacturing TVP? If I raise my own chickens for eggs, am I hurting Mother Earth as much as if I buy out-of-season fruit trucked up from Chile? I’m all for looking at the environmental cost of meat, but let’s not buy into the nonsense that everything BUT meat and animal feed is grown organically by well-paid workers in healthy soil and delivered to us by trucks running only on biodiesel.

   And on the recipes, geezlouise! How fun is that, baking! There’s no porn or paint-throwing associated with it; is that supposed to convince anybody to give up steak?!

6. Hey, I’m in the “vegan at home”, vegetarian “when I’m out” category simply because I refuse to be an obnoxious guest. But giving up dairy and eggs was easier than I thought… except for the occasional “whey protein bar” slip…

7. mnemosyne, you might be interested in “how free is free range?”. basically, unless you’ve seen those cows and chickens yourself there is no way to know for sure that they’re happy while producing things so that humans can take them away. but, of course, as long as you‘re happy, and happy with being powerful… 😀

   seriously, though, you should become vegan if you’re interested in being vegan. if not, just don’t. but i’d hope you at least don’t object to people knowing more about global food issues than what the animal industries would like them to know. and, yes, knowing about alternatives to cruelty and in particular veganism (which does not have to mean asceticism and for a lot of people is actually a more realistic choice than always buying organic, free-range, etc., anyway).

8. That recipe sounds … like slippery bowels just waiting to happen.

   (I can’t eat margarine, shortening, or oil. Butter and eggs all the way, baby.)

9. mnemosyne, you might be interested in “how free is free range?”. basically, unless you’ve seen those cows and chickens yourself there is no way to know for sure that they’re happy while producing things so that humans can take them away. but, of course, as long as you‘re happy, and happy with being powerful… 😀

   Well, this kind of feeds into the whole PETA thing, doesn’t it? It depends on whether or not you think animals and humans are morally equivalent. I do not. I think humans have a responsibility to treat animals with kindness and dignity, but I do not think they are the same as humans.

   Personally, I don’t think the chicken particularly cares one way or another. But if you have proof that the chickens are spending their days in a gigantic depression because their eggs are being stolen, then of course we should shut down all of the poultry farms and humanely euthanize all of the chickens to end their suffering.

   but i’d hope you at least don’t object to people knowing more about global food issues than what the animal industries would like them to know. and, yes, knowing about alternatives to cruelty and in particular veganism (which does not have to mean asceticism and for a lot of people is actually a more realistic choice than always buying organic, free-range, etc., anyway).

   How realistic is it to choose a diet that requires major amounts of artificial vitamin and mineral supplementation to prevent malnutrition? If everyone switched to a vegan diet, why do you think that the industrial production of B12 and calcium would automatically be better for the environment than egg and milk production?

   I have looked into and read about both veganism and vegetarianism. I can see the merits of vegetarianism from moral, political, and nutritional standpoints.

   But a vegan diet is an artificial construct that needs to be supported by high technology. If you tried to follow it while living in the woods without access to a multivitamin, you’d starve to death in a matter of months.

10. I love this! Are you still transitioning/vegan, Zuzu? You’re right–the way to share veganism is to show how delicious and fun it can be to eat a plant-based diet with zero cholesterol.

11. ruxandra, thank you for your thoughtful commentary, in response to mnemosyne’s two postings. you said exactly what i wanted to say or thought should be said.

    for all: here’s an article from wednesday’s new york times on ira chandra moskovitz, “Strict Vegan Ethics, Frosted with Hedonism” (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/24/dining/24vega.html?_r=1&em&ex=1169960400&en=6bc9c8c8dc06a307&ei=5087&oref=slogin).

12. thanks, tara.

    mnemosyne, maybe you don’t realize this but if you (or rather a vegan) lived in the woods, you/they would probably be ingesting plenty of b12 naturally. so i wouldn’t worry too much about that. anyway, how many of your ethical choices moving around in society do you base on whether they would apply “if you lived in the woods”? i don’t think anything i say “feeds into the peta thing” since i’m pretty much the biggest critic peta ever had – because they are unethical and they believe that the ends justify the means and don’t give a crap about social justice. but peta doesn’t have a monopoly over the idea of animal rights. i personally believe that “the animals of the world exist for their own reasons. they were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.” (to quote alice walker)

    if you’ve looked into vegetarianism and veganism and drew the conclusions you have, i really have to question where your information came from and how you’re processing it, especially in regards to veganism (“shut down all of the poultry farms and humanely euthanize all of the chickens to end their suffering”?!). you should look harder. among other things, i wonder if you know how b12 is synthesized (“big technology”!?) and the fact that we already make lots of b12 – it’s a common supplement, you don’t have to be vegan to need or wish to take it. at ay rate, that’s totally a distraction from the topic. the point is, veganism is about minimizing your ecological impact and your contribution to animal suffering as much as possible. it’s not some crazy “diet” that’s being imposed on anyone and it’s more than just feasible for lots of people – it’s the easiest way to boycott the cruelty and resource wasting/destruction of animal industries. oh, yeah, and it feels great. 🙂

13. ps: i forgot to mention that your “b12 and calcium” comment is actually what makes me question your assertion that you’ve “looked into and read about both vegetarianism and veganism” the most. for calcium info, try this for a start.

14. Wow, Mnemosyne. What’s got your back up? Nobody’s trying to take away your milk and eggs. I’m not sure why you’re acting so defensively to a simple cupcake recipe. If it’s not your thing, it’s not your thing. It’s not a comment on your lifestyle.

    Personally, I don’t think the chicken particularly cares one way or another. But if you have proof that the chickens are spending their days in a gigantic depression because their eggs are being stolen, then of course we should shut down all of the poultry farms and humanely euthanize all of the chickens to end their suffering.

    The point is that “free-range” and “cage-free” are labels that don’t necessarily mean in practice what they connote. Sure, the chickens aren’t kept all day in battery cages, but the time they get out of the cage might be a minimum of half an hour or so — meaning their treatment isn’t much better than that of battery chickens. Probably the best way to be sure you know how the animals who produce your food are treated is to buy your milk and eggs and meat from local producers who you can speak to at the farmer’s market and who are open to farm visits.

    Personally, I have no ethical problems at all with eating meat, but I do take issue with the way it’s produced on factory farms. Not just from a cruelty standpoint, but also because of the growth hormones and antibiotics routinely administered to the animals. I decided I could either buy all my meat and milk and eggs from local organic farmers (which is hella expensive and inconvenient) or I could go vegan, which requires me to rethink the way I cook and eat entirely (the reason I decided against vegetarianism is that it’s just so easy to over-rely on cheese and get stuck in a rut, cooking-wise).

    And a vegan diet really isn’t all that difficult to pull off, and certainly doesn’t require high technology unless you want processed meat or cheese substitutes. Your biggest problem, and what keeps tripping me up as I try to transition, is simple availability of good options in restaurants.

    As for B12 — so you take a supplement. Calcium and iron are not the exclusive province of animal products. Hell, Guinness is high in iron, if it comes to that.

15. if you (or rather a vegan) lived in the woods, you/they would probably be ingesting plenty of b12 naturally

    no, you probably wouldn’t. B12 can be found in some ‘shrooms, which do grow in the woods, but only in trace amounts. you have to practically eat your weight in vegetable matter to get enough B12.

    supplements are a fine way to get nutrients; I advocate calcium supplements b/c they are cheaper and have fewer calories than milk. if you want to be a vegan for animal-ethics reasons, though, make sure you are getting a vegan supplement.

16. Sorry, Zuzu. I was joking in my first post, but something about Frumious’ “but you’re KILLING THE PLANET by eating eggs and milk!” post really set my back up.

    If people want to be vegans, fine. It’s when people start pretending that it’s a completely natural diet for humans that’s nutritionally complete that it starts to set my back up. Plus I worry that those people who believe that are not doing the supplementation that they should be and will malnourish themselves without realizing it.

    I do sometimes consider becoming a vegetarian, but knowing that I will be constantly attacked (I’m in Southern California, after all) for not being “pure” enough and why don’t you become a vegan it’s SO MUCH BETTER just makes me want to order the double bacon cheeseburger.

    (Again, this may be a Southern California thing. We’ve got a lot of very bizarre vegans out here, many of whom I suspect of having an eating disorder.)

17. no, you probably wouldn’t. B12 can be found in some ’shrooms, which do grow in the woods, but only in trace amounts

    that’s not what i was saying. i was talking about the fact that you’d probably eat everything with a healthy dose of dirt and get your b12 that way. which is valid, and perfectly appropriate as a response to the whole “living in the woods” argument, no? 🙂

    as someone who’s been vegan for 10 years, had no b12 problems for the first 8 or so because i was eating fortified foods (easily) but then once i moved to a different country and didn’t have access to the same foods did have a b12 defficiency, which i’ve now fixed – i currently have a higher-than-average b12 level and am taking supplements (also easily) – i’m definitely not advocating not being careful about your b12 if you’re vegan!

    calcium is another matter. unlike b12, it’s found in a wide variety of vegetable sources – which are already devoid of cholesterol and animal protein (a major obstacle to calcium absorption). i’d say eat your tofu, green leafy vegetables, nuts and seeds, and that will be better than drinking milk at all levels.

18. mnemosyne, there’s lots of people out there, with different views and tactics (and problems). vegans and non-vegans. but this isn’t about “diet” or “purity” or feeling defensive but about trying to minimize our contribution to animal suffering and resource wasting. and on the other hand, lots of vegans – like me 😀 – love, love food and are not assholes. for real.

19. If people want to be vegans, fine. It’s when people start pretending that it’s a completely natural diet for humans that’s nutritionally complete that it starts to set my back up. Plus I worry that those people who believe that are not doing the supplementation that they should be and will malnourish themselves without realizing it.

    Oh, lordy. Those are raw-food people they’re talking about there. Who are on the level of fruitarians in terms of nuttiness.

    Frankly, not many people are getting all the nutrients they need from their diets. Just because it’s a little harder to get certain nutrients from an all-plant diet doesn’t mean it can’t be done. And the fact that some people don’t do their research doesn’t mean that it’s not a valid option. Eating all red meat and potatoes isn’t so nutritionally balanced, either.

    I do sometimes consider becoming a vegetarian, but knowing that I will be constantly attacked (I’m in Southern California, after all) for not being “pure” enough and why don’t you become a vegan it’s SO MUCH BETTER just makes me want to order the double bacon cheeseburger.

    Is it a Southern California thing to not tell people to fuck off and mind their own business about what you’re eating? I mean, you’ve done a very good job smacking around certain commenters on Pandagon who’ve questioned your decision to lose weight and the way you’ve chosen to do it.

    Honestly, and this is a general comment, not directed at you, I don’t get why people get defensive when someone else has a different diet. I know the stereotype of obnoxious vegetarians, but I’ve more often seen people who eat meat freaking out about vegetarians in their midst. I spent a Thanksgiving with some people who were discussing one woman’s niece’s boyfriend’s never having eaten meat in his life as if it were something completely freakish. Apparently, during college, his friends tried to slip him meat products for fun. And my mother’s cousin’s daughter met a lot of resistance from her family for going vegan, even though she was an adult and was doing it in part to lose weight, which should have made her mother (who never failed to mention her daughter’s “terrible weight problem” whenever her name came up). But, Jesus, no — they seemingly took it as a rejection of their values or something.

20. Forget annoying vegans. I can’t get past the idea of vegan baked goods. Sometimes I pick them up accidentaly at the food co-op, and there’s nothing more disappointing than “vegannaise” in the place of mayonnaise, or margarine in the place of butter.

21. Call me paranoid, ruxandra, but I’m a little wary of accepting nutrition information from pro-vegetarian and animal rights sources. They just seem to have too much of an agenda. I mean, if the research suggested that calcium from animal sources worked best, do you think any of the websites you linked would honestly address that research?

    I think veganism is a very solid ethical choice. And I’m sure that it’s healthy in many ways. But those are two separate contentions, and they seem to get conflated in a lot of vegan literature. I’m not convinced that many vegans would honestly say “this is an ethical choice that may take a toll on one’s body in some ways, but it’s worth it to spare animal suffering,” even if there were considerable evidence that was true.

    Those cupcakes do look yummy.

22. And my mother’s cousin’s daughter met a lot of resistance from her family for going vegan, even though she was an adult and was doing it in part to lose weight, which should have made her mother (who never failed to mention her daughter’s “terrible weight problem” whenever her name came up).

    I think my mom would be pretty unhappy if I went vegan, because eating is a big part of what my family does together, and from here on out our shared meals would have to be all about me. Either I’d reject her food, which would hurt her feelings, or I’d demand that she altered everything she cooked to fit my requirements, which would be a pain in the ass and also would hurt her feelings. And when we ate out, we’d have to specially pick restaurants that would cater to my dietary needs.

    I just don’t know any way around this. Food is social and emotional and tied up with all sorts of other stuff, and when you have food requirements that go against the grain, it interferes with that. It’s an issue for people with non-voluntary food restrictions, too.

23. You have to understand, Sally, that this woman not only took every opportunity to mention her own size 2 Donna Karan jeans, but usually talked about her children thus: “My son is wonderful, he does this, that and the other, and we’re so proud of him. . . and my daughter has a terrible weight problem.”

    And she worried about her daughter rejecting her?

    Forget annoying vegans. I can’t get past the idea of vegan baked goods. Sometimes I pick them up accidentaly at the food co-op, and there’s nothing more disappointing than “vegannaise” in the place of mayonnaise, or margarine in the place of butter.

    Look around for a recipe for “crazy cake,” which is basically flour, sugar, oil, vinegar, baking soda and cocoa. The recipe apparently started during the Depression or WWII, when eggs and milk were either expensive or rationed. The cake is excellent. I used to make it with zucchini and ginger and cinnamon added, which makes the texture a little denser.

24. Call me paranoid, ruxandra, but I’m a little wary of accepting nutrition information from pro-vegetarian and animal rights sources.

    but, on the other hand, it’s ok that usual nutrition information we get (like the food pyramid) is sponsored by groups that represent animal industry interests? the two links i gave were to a table of calcium content in foods (which is what it is) and to an article that has a list of references from scientific journals. it’s up to you what/who you believe or not once you have access to information – but, for instance, you may be aware that in asian countries where dairy consumption is close to zero osteoporosis is also pretty nonexistent, unlike in countries where milk – that wonderful source of calcium – is everywhere… so then you have to wonder about all that, right? yes, it’s not something the dairy industry, or popular western wisdom, would promote, but it is nevertheless the case… and it’s the same with many other aspects of the way we eat: vegetarianism and veganism offer alternatives.

    if you’re “not convinced that many vegans would honestly say “this is an ethical choice that may take a toll on one’s body in some ways, but it’s worth it to spare animal suffering,” even if there were considerable evidence that was true” – i wonder if you’d say the same about environmentalists in general, and environmental issues (that environmentalists would ignore facts about the environment if it didn’t agree with their ethical stance stance to not destroy the environment). but both environmentalism and veganism are precisely about minimizing ecological impact and protecting the earth and minimizing suffering of living beings… it’s not about being crazy or irrational. just about facts and compassion.

    i have lots to say about the defensive reactions of people to even the idea of vegetarianism, but i think i’ll keep it to myself.

25. sara, call me. 🙂 or, more to the point, have whoever is baking for your co-op call me! my blog is linked above, under “via” – see my new year’s menu, for instance.

26. I can’t get over how bland vegetarian meals are. Sure, you can drop chile and salt on tofu, but you just don’t get the rich, complex flavors that come from meat and the chemical changes that happen to fat and muscle tissue when it’s cooked and browned.

    I mean, how can you deglaze tempeh? I’ve heard people swear up and down that vegetarian meals don’t have to be bland, and to prove it, they serve me the blandest, textureless, least interesting food I’ve ever had. I’ve had professionally prepared vegetarian meals and there wasn’t one that didn’t have half as much flavor as a boullion cube.

    Apparently the secret to tasty vegetarian cooking is to forget, as soon as possible, how delicious meat can be. Do I cook with eggs and butter in every meal? No, of course not, and I don’t even always use meat, either. But there’s no substitute for beef and pork (and beer) in chili, or bacon in spaghetti carbonara, or andouille sausage in jambalaya, or cheese on a pizza.

    People eat meat because it tastes good in a way no other food can.

27. Hey, Chet, here’s an idea: don’t like vegetarian food? DON’T EAT IT.

    Capisce?

28. I’m not a vegan, but I did use to keep kosher, so I had to find a lot of substitutes for milk and butter. Almond milk is one of my favorites, although it doesn’t go with everything. It’s also got a high natural fat content, so it can be used to make butter as well (by whipping it). No need to use margarine, which I’m not that fond of myself.

29. sally, my mom has had a lot of fun over the years making up and adapting dishes for me and my sister – and ultimately for herself and my dad, who are not veg*an (but have been moving v. close to vegetarianism this way)… her feelings were not at all hurt that we turned vegan, and she takes great pride that she knows how to make lots and lots of delicious vegan dishes that vegetarians and non-vegetarians compliment her on. and i promote her recipes, which she also loves. 🙂 this is not to say that all parents would be the same, but it is definitely possible, and it’s just as good a bonding-over-food experience as any.

30. You know, Chet, I sympathize with what you’re saying, but I had a similar hangup and realized I was being a little odd–because I didn’t consider stuff like vegetable curry or stir-fried vegetables “vegetarian food,” as it wasn’t “regular” food with meat substitutes or meat taken out, and I, well, liked it. The eye-opener was to be served a Chinese dish that had tofu and pork together in it–and realizing that tofu is just an ingredient, that some people like and some don’t, on its own merits.

    Nobody really likes carob, in my experience, and it’s not because carob is bad stuff–it’s because people try to sell it to you as a substitute for chocolate, and it ain’t. Tofu’s pretty good stuff, and I enjoy cooking with it–but not when you try to tell me it’s a substitute for meat, because it ain’t. If I spend all my time wondering why tempeh isn’t steak, there’s no way I’ll like the tempeh–it will never, ever have the qualities of steak, even if it shares some of the nutritional content, and so on. As an ingredient that stands alone, you can have fun with it.

    I realized I was not considering food-modified-to-be-vegetarian vegetarian food, when there are a lot of dishes I enjoy that happen to not have meat in them. I’ve enjoyed food made by vegetarian and vegan friends, especially when it doesn’t come with a side of sanctimony. It helps to not think of it as replacement for stuff you do like.

    The green beans I saute’d last night and the roasted potatoes were really good, and both, when you gave ’em a glance, vegan. The steak, not so much. They all have their merits.

31. but, on the other hand, it’s ok that usual nutrition information we get (like the food pyramid) is sponsored by groups that represent animal industry interests?

    Yes, you’re right. Because I do not take vegetarian propaganda at face value, I am a total moron who has never thought critically about anything in my life. Please feel free to be really condescending towards me.

    I absolutely realize that the food pyramid is propaganda for various big agricultural interests. But that doesn’t offset the possibility that vegan websites are merely propaganda for a different set of interests. I don’t know if there are any neutral sources of nutritional information, but I’m not going to accept one set of biases uncritically just because there are other biases floating around.

    the two links i gave were to a table of calcium content in foods (which is what it is) and to an article that has a list of references from scientific journals.

    And I think it’s very possible, given their agenda, that they’re selectively reading the scientific literature. I would like to see information that comes from people’s whose primary agenda is my health, not animals’ wellbeing, just as I would like to see information that comes from people whose primary interest is not the financial wellbeing of the dairy industry.

    but, for instance, you may be aware that in asian countries where dairy consumption is close to zero osteoporosis is also pretty nonexistent, unlike in countries where milk – that wonderful source of calcium – is everywhere… so then you have to wonder about all that, right?

    But you’re not “wondering” about it. You’re drawing conclusions about it. It may be that this shows that people don’t need calcium, but it may mean something else. For instance, women in Asian countries might get more weight-bearing exercise, or their bodies may have evolved to have different nutritional needs in response to different environments. You’re not treating this like a question. You’re treating it like an answer.

    This is a real issue for me. For various reasons that have nothing to do with what I eat, I have thinning bones. I’ve received a lot of medical advice about how to deal with this situation, all of which assumes that I need more calcium than I can get from plant based sources. (I don’t eat dairy because I’m lactose intolerant, so I take supplements.) If I listened to you and your animal rights buddies, I would ignore my doctors. And I’m just not willing to do that, even though I know that doctors are sometimes wrong.

    sally, my mom has had a lot of fun over the years making up and adapting dishes for me and my sister – and ultimately for herself and my dad, who are not veg*an (but have been moving v. close to vegetarianism this way)… her feelings were not at all hurt that we turned vegan, and she takes great pride that she knows how to make lots and lots of delicious vegan dishes that vegetarians and non-vegetarians compliment her on. and i promote her recipes, which she also loves. 🙂

    Well, congrats. I’m pretty sure that’s not how it would work in my family, for a number of reasons.

    Maybe I just have a really unsophisticated pallet, Chet, but I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about. (And if I’m an unsophisticated eater, I suspect I’m not any more of one than the vast majority of the population.) I eat meat maybe once a week and don’t miss it at all on the other days. There are definitely times when meat is a convenient shortcut: if you throw some bacon into your lentil soup, you don’t have to worry about making stock. But lentil soup with roasted veggie stock is also quite delicious, and I don’t ever eat it and miss the bacon.

32. * that’s “food-not-modified-to-be-vegetarian,” I meant, that is, food that’s vegetarian not because non-vegetarian elements were subtracted.

    Man, now I really want some of those cupcakes.

33. no, you probably wouldn’t. B12 can be found in some ’shrooms, which do grow in the woods, but only in trace amounts. you have to practically eat your weight in vegetable matter to get enough B12.

    Historically, peoples that have eaten a mostly “vegan” diet have included a high proportion of open-fermented foods, like tempeh. Though the input stock doesn’t contain a lot of vitamin B12, most bacteria and yeasts can synthesize it naturally; unfortunately, it’s possible, especially when culturing it with a single organism, to end up with somethin that doesn’t contain any B12 at all. Modern focus on keeping bacteria and yeasts out of food altogether have made things substantially more difficult for vegans, though substantially safer for the rest of us.

    It’s theoretically possible to eat an unsupplemented vegan diet, and, historically, has been done. But I wouldn’t try it.

    — ACS

34. Oh, the vegetarian wars…

    As I mentioned in a previous post, I was a vegetarian for 11 years. I started eating meat about a year ago. I haven’t once caught hell from another vegetarian for eating meat; when I was a vegetarian, though, I was constantly criticized and attacked for not eating meat.

    Sally’s right that food is tied into all kinds of cultural and social issues. There are a lot of people out there who consider your vegetarianism a direct affront to their beliefs or their way of life; they hear you’re vegetarian, and they automatically take that as a moral criticism of their meat-eating. My entire family ate meat. I could care less of someone else does. But if I so much as mentioned my vegetarianism, there were who would come down on me, hard.

    Yes, there are self-righteous vegetarians and vegans out there, and they’re irritating. But they’re the small minority, and their existence doesn’t justify the hostility with which other vegetarians are treated, as if our food choices are inherently judgmental or critical of other people.

    And Chet, having been a veg and a meat-eater, there are plenty of really delicious vegetarian and vegan options. I’m a huge foodie, and eating meat hasn’t in any way opened my eyes to an entirely new way of life. I don’t particularly like tofu, I don’t eat tempeh, and I don’t do the meat-substitute thing. But plenty of delicious meals can be made with pastas (go to Italy and then tell me that vegetarian food is terrible), Asian spices (a lot of Asian food can be vegetarian), Indian food, etc. Veganism makes it more difficult, but certainly not impossible, if the vegan cupcakes at bakery in my neighborhood are any indication.

    I’ll also argue that the “vegetarian food is not as good as meat food” is a pretty Western-centric view. A lot of cultures have vegetable-based food, and it’s incredible, even if it’s not American.

35. If I listened to you and your animal rights buddies, I would ignore my doctors.

    i’m not sure who “me and my animal rights buddies” are, sally, but i honestly didn’t mean anything i said condescendingly. i said that you have to wonder, to question mainstream views on the need to consume animal products. yes, i drew my own conclusions from the information i’ve seen, and that’s why i’m vegan. that’s me. i tried to make a point that you can’t dismiss stuff simply because it comes from “groups concerned with animal welfare” (or from environmental groups or what have you). but i also said – clearly – that you should draw your own conclusions. i would never tell you that as an absolute rule you should ignore your doctors (or that you should listen to them, for that matter). i’d never even tell you that you should become vegan – it’s your business. if you don’t even care to hear the perspective of someone who is vegan, ok.

    best of luck!

36. Mm, I have Vegan with a Vengeance and it’s wonderful. It’s the only cookbook that I’ve ever followed recipes without changing them at all!

37. if you don’t even care to hear the perspective of someone who is vegan, ok.

    I think there’s a big difference between not caring to hear the perspectives of people who are vegan and not trusting the neutrality of their information about nutrition. Like I said, I believe that the animal rights movement tends to conflate moral issues and health issues, and I’d like to keep those distinct. (And I don’t think that health necessarily trumps morality, either, for what it’s worth. If my iron levels could be improved by eating my neighbor’s two-year-old, that wouldn’t make cannibalism ok.)

38. Sally, do you have any neutral sources of information about nutrition to offer?

39. what i don’t see is why you think that “the animal rights movement” can’t possibly understand not to conflate moral issues and health issues. of course they are mostly distinct. and of course, “If my iron levels could be improved by eating my neighbor’s two-year-old, that wouldn’t make cannibalism ok.” – it’s common sense, and that’s pretty much the area where the moral and health considerations intersect as far as animal rights, too: as someone who’s for animal rights, even it were better (tastier, etc.) to meet your nutritional needs with animal products, you’re opposed to doing so on moral grounds. but this absolutely doesn’t mean that i’m going to fool myself about the health benefits of veganism – let alone promote them to others. what would be my interest? to harm myself and others? that’d be unvegan. and stupid. 🙂 just because i’m vegan it doesn’t mean that i can’t wrap my brain around such concepts or that i need someone “neutral” to tell me about them. and, actually, all the veg*an groups (my animal rights buddies and i?) that i’ve been involved with have addressed ethical/moral, environmental, and nutritional issues separately to a great extent (lots of vegetarians are vegetarians primarily for only *one* of those reasons, and don’t pretend otherwise). so yeah.

40. zuzu, i was just about to say that a lot of the nutritional information that comes from vegan groups (that i know of, at least) is based directly on “neutral” studies by “neutral” groups anyway. for instance, the “why vegan” health page from vegan outreach, here, quotes directly from American Dietetic Association and The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition:

    It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.…
    Well-planned vegan [pure vegetarian] and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence.
    Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as Vitamins C and E and phytochemicals. Vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer.

    or

    The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition published a series of papers32 describing the benefits of basing one’s diet on plant foods:
    * High fruit and vegetable consumption is associated with a reduced risk for cardiovascular disease, several common cancers, and other chronic diseases (such as macular degeneration and cataracts).
    * Legumes (e.g., beans, peas, lentils, and peanuts) are excellent sources of protein, fiber, and a variety of micronutrients and phytochemicals that may protect against disease.
    * Regular consumption of nuts is linked with a lower risk for heart disease and lower mortality rates.
    * Whole-grain consumption is associated with a reduced risk for heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, and stomach and colon cancers.
    Simply avoiding animal products will not ensure optimal health. Like everyone, vegans should eat a balanced diet. Protein, Vitamins B12 and D, omega-3 fats, calcium, and iodine are important.

    crazy, crazy stuff, right? but as i said, it’s the same with environmental groups – of course they are “biased” towards wanting to reduce harm to the environment, but that doesn’t mean they can be assumed to be twisting facts and shouldn’t be trusted: say, about climate change, to name just one issue. (ok, to some people it does, but that’s another story.)

41. Sally, do you have any neutral sources of information about nutrition to offer?

    No. But that doesn’t mean that all sources are equally non-neutral. I’m pretty sure that my doctors aren’t sitting down with medical journals looking for information to prove that being vegetarian is bad for you. (And in fact every nutritionist and most doctors I’ve dealt with have been pretty pro-vegetarianism, although more skeptical of veganism.) And I’m pretty sure that the people from the PCRM are doing the reverse. That’s not to deny that there are a lot of biases built into current medical research. Anyone thinking about this stuff is going to have to try to account for that bias. But I’d rather listen to people who are trying to do that from a medical standpoint, rather than from an animal rights standpoint. If that makes me an asshole, well, apparently a lot of things make me an asshole on feminist blogs these days. I can deal with that.

    what i don’t see is why you think that “the animal rights movement” can’t possibly understand not to conflate moral issues and health issues.

    I’m sure they could. I’ve just seen a lot of instances in which I don’t think they have.

42. Aaargh. Sorry about the double post.

43. As a former vegan (current vegetarian) I always thought it was interesting how mentioning veganism made critiquing my health and dietary welfare fair game. (I know this phenomena isn’t limited to veganism, that’s just my experience with it.)
    At one particular family get together I had an aunt (who I hadn’t seen in awhile) approach me. She hadn’t even said hello yet and the first words out of her mouth were “I hope you’re getting enough B12” Later on an uncle who was fascinated by the tofu stir-frying I was making (I think his exact words were “that actually looks good!”) admitted he was “more of a big mac guy” Yet no one felt the need to ask him if he’d had his cholestorol checked recently.
    Yes, eating well balanced vegan diet is difficult. But, as zuzu pointed out earlier most people in our society don’t eat a perfectly balanced diet. There are healthy and unhealthy vegans just like there are healthy and unhealthy omnivores.

44. Mnemosyne: How realistic is it to choose a diet that requires major amounts of artificial vitamin and mineral supplementation to prevent malnutrition? If everyone switched to a vegan diet, why do you think that the industrial production of B12 and calcium would automatically be better for the environment than egg and milk production?

    Of course, most packaged animal and cereal products on the shelves are artificially supplemented with vitamins and minerals. I don’t see why B12-fortified soy and rice milk is all that more outrageous than A and D-fortified dairy, or folic acid in cereal products.

45. Off-topic (or is it on-topic?), but I discovered a few years ago that if you take your commercial brownie mix-in-a-box and instead of eggs, use one cup of individual-serving applesauce per egg, the end result is not only moister, but more chocolatey tasting.

    I’m not sure if it’s entirely vegan-safe (haven’t read the fine print), but it suuure is yummy!

46. I always thought it was interesting how mentioning veganism made critiquing my health and dietary welfare fair game. (I know this phenomena isn’t limited to veganism, that’s just my experience with it.)

    I had a similar thing. I’m vegetarian, but my brother had apparently picked up the impression that I was vegan because I’d occasionally have tofu, and started giving me the super-worried “Are you getting enough protein? How about iron?” questions.

    Even leaving aside the fundamental silliness of looking at someone in the act of eating tofu and wondering how they’ll ever get any protein, no one in my family ever reacted that way to see my dad, who’s on cholesterol medication, eating sausage.

47. I’m not a vegetarian, but stopped eating certain types of meat (all red meat and on/off with pork) and I still get shit for it, so it’s like I have one foot in each camp. Even last night, as lamb was being carved, my host asked if I was offended! Which is especially funny because he’s seen me eat other meats with gusto.

    Not to mention I have to justify my dietary preferences to everyone who asks (I guess a lot of it is mere curiosity, but I think some people want to try and go aha! hypocrite! to me).

48. Personally, I’m not a vegetarian and I have no plans to become one, as really enjoy meat, dairy, etc. That isn’t to say that I have a problem with people who are vegetarian/vegan, because I absolutely do not. And I have no problem modifying a dinner party menu or whatever for someone who is, so long as I’m notified ahead of time so I can actually make the changes (apparently I make a kick ass marinated, grilled portobello, according to the veg. friend that came over for Christmas a few years ago).

    But anyway, thank you Zuzu for this cupcake recipe as my kid’s birthday is next month and one of his best friend in the ‘whole wide world’ is allergic to milk protein. The last few years it didn’t matter because he had just a family birthday party with nothing really special, but this year N will be 5 and is old enough to want his friends to come over, and has insisted on Superman cupcakes (that E can eat) and I have been racking my brain to find a way to make decent tasting frosting that doesn’t have butter in it so the little guy can eat it. His mom has suggested certain boxed mixes and frosting made from shortening and powdered sugar (which I’ve done before, but which tasted horrible to me), but I’ve been hoping I could do better than that.

49. Hey, Chet, here’s an idea: don’t like vegetarian food? DON’T EAT IT.

    Well, I don’t, except when I want to. And then I do.

    But then, for your part – don’t, as the title of this thread would have us believe, pretend like you can just go vegetarian without sacrificing flavors you’ll never taste again. Vegetarian boosters want to piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining – that the switch to vegetarianism can be invisible and painless, and that’s just not so.

    I don’t have a problem with people who choose to eat like that. Christ, why would I care?

50. No. But that doesn’t mean that all sources are equally non-neutral. I’m pretty sure that my doctors aren’t sitting down with medical journals looking for information to prove that being vegetarian is bad for you. (And in fact every nutritionist and most doctors I’ve dealt with have been pretty pro-vegetarianism, although more skeptical of veganism.) And I’m pretty sure that the people from the PCRM are doing the reverse. That’s not to deny that there are a lot of biases built into current medical research. Anyone thinking about this stuff is going to have to try to account for that bias. But I’d rather listen to people who are trying to do that from a medical standpoint, rather than from an animal rights standpoint.

    So, wait — you’re demanding neutral sources from ruxandra, but aren’t willing to provide any yourself? Besides, I’m not sure what you’re objecting to — the idea that you can get enough calcium from plant sources?

    But then, for your part – don’t, as the title of this thread would have us believe, pretend like you can just go vegetarian without sacrificing flavors you’ll never taste again. Vegetarian boosters want to piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining – that the switch to vegetarianism can be invisible and painless, and that’s just not so.

    Jesus, Chet, settle down. It’s just a friggin’ cupcake recipe.

    Besides, if you were paying attention to the PETA mishegoss in the post below this one, you might get a clue as to why I chose the title. But if you prefer to think it’s propaganda, be my guest.

51. So, wait — you’re demanding neutral sources from ruxandra, but aren’t willing to provide any yourself?

    I’m not demanding neutral sources from ruxandra. I’m saying that I don’t listen to nutritional information from people whose primary concern isn’t nutrition. I’m saying that if animal rights advocates want to convince me that their health claims are correct, they will do better to link to sources that are primarily concerned with health, not sources that are primarily concerned with animal rights. And I would really prefer to read the original sources, not the animal rights edit on them. I have no way of knowing what’s between those elipses.

    Besides, I’m not sure what you’re objecting to — the idea that you can get enough calcium from plant sources?

    I’m objecting to her making health claims and citing animal rights sources to back up those health claims. And I guess more generally, I’m objecting to people pretending to care about women’s health, when they really care more about something they consider more important than us.

52. You might well ask where your doctor gets his/her health and nutrition information from. Because doctors aren’t nutritionists.

    And what makes you think the information sources ruxandra cited were primarily concerned with animal rights and not nutrition? It’s not exactly controversial that both dairy products and dark leafy greens contain calcium. Look at comment #40 — a lot of the nutritional information from the sites she cited comes from the American Dietetic Association and the Journal of Clinical Nutrition. Probably the same sources your doctor uses.

    I’m objecting to her making health claims and citing animal rights sources to back up those health claims.

    What health claims did she make? That you can get adequate calcium from plants? What’s so threatening about that?

53. But then, for your part – don’t, as the title of this thread would have us believe, pretend like you can just go vegetarian without sacrificing flavors you’ll never taste again. Vegetarian boosters want to piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining – that the switch to vegetarianism can be invisible and painless, and that’s just not so.

    Anytime you decide to cut something out of your diet, you’re sacrificing specific flavors. Nothing tastes exactly like meat, and if you find stuff that doesn’t taste exactly like meat unsatisfying, you’re going to be disappointed as a vegetarian. Personally, I don’t miss it much. I also find that stuff like soy burgers is most disappointing to people who’ve been misled to think that they taste just like beef burgers. But I’ve also seen that people like turkey as turkey a lot better than if they see turkey burgers and turkey sausage as a substitute for red meat.

    The thread title was more arguing for the idea that you can have tasty stuff without meat or dairy, and you don’t have to sacrifice as much as you think. I’ve had vegan baked goods that were awful, and ones that were delicious. I don’t know if the cupcakes are any good or not, but they sound good. It’s not an elaborate effort to make people think that if they eat the vegan cupcakes they won’t ever miss anything involving eggs or dairy. It’s suggesting that 1) you don’t have to give up as much going vegan as some people think, and 2) showing people some tasty vegan food options is a better strategy to promote veganism than degrading women.

54. Why is asking for neutral, unbiased health information evidence of being ‘threatened’? Yes, it’s just a cupcake recipe, eating it doesn’t require you to give up meat.

55. Why is asking for neutral, unbiased health information evidence of being ‘threatened’?

    because given the context, it’s kind of the same thing as if i’d mentioned a women’s rights issue and someone said they can’t trust my sources because those are feminist, and i should give them “neutral” links that can be trusted. the implication being that feminists & co. can be assumed to be out to fool people with their “agenda” and their “propaganda.” that’s what i was trying to point out with the environmentalist parallel, too. it’s up to everyone to look into where the information comes from (what i quoted has sources), and if they believe it. but vegan or pro-animal rights doesn’t equal sneaky or crazy.

    speaking of which, 🙂 zuzu mentioned “crazy cake” – the baking soda and vinegar recipe. yes, it’s a “poor (wo)man’s cake” (we also made this in romania during communist times when eggs and dairy products were luxuries) but it seriously tastes really good (and it’s super-easy, quick and – of course – cheap to make)! here’s one (vanilla) recipe.
    oh, and if anyone’s interested in a list of “egg replacers,” see this ppk page.

56. Those cupcakes are really, really good.

57. You might well ask where your doctor gets his/her health and nutrition information from. Because doctors aren’t nutritionists.

    Why would you assume that I haven’t asked my doctor that?

    And what makes you think the information sources ruxandra cited were primarily concerned with animal rights and not nutrition?

    Are you serious? Why do I think that the PCRM is primarily concerned with animal rights? Because it’s partly funded by PETA and its founder is on PETA’s board and it has all sorts of links with the animal rights movement? Because its two major areas of concern (promoting veganism and ending medical research involving animals) are only coherent if you assume an animal rights agenda? Exactly what kind of evidence do you want? Do you really think that veganoutreach.com is about nutrition, not animal rights?

    Probably the same sources your doctor uses.

    I just don’t know any way to explain this that will get through to you.

    There was no link to the original source on the page to which Ruxandra linked: there were just quotes. Now, let’s just say, as a hypothetical, that the sentence after the quoted bit said “there are some people for whom a vegan diet may not be suited, including people with chronic anemia and those suffering from early-onset osteopenia.” The people at vegan outreach aren’t going to quote that bit, because it doesn’t fit with their agenda, which is promoting veganism. And they don’t provide a link to the full report, so you couldn’t read it, either. But a medical professional, whose primary agenda is promoting my health rather than pushing veganism, would not censor that part and would think to mention to me that I’m one of the people who should think twice about becoming a vegan.

    I just don’t know any clearer way to discuss the difference between someone whose primary goal is making sure my bones don’t shatter and someone whose primary goal is improving the wellbeing of cows. I’m not saying that the latter isn’t a valid concern. It’s just not fair to pretend that you’re doing the former when in fact you’re primarily concerned about the latter.

58. sally, the original page i quoted regarding calcium absorption quotes the following references – yes, it’s true, they’re not linked, but you can look them up.

    References
    1. Looker AC, Johnston CC, Wahner HW, et al. Prevalence of low femoreal bone density in older U.S. women from NHANES III. J Bone and Mineral Research 1995;10:796-802.
    2. Bauer RL. Ethnic differences in hip fracture: a reduced incidence in Mexican Americans. Am J Epid 1988;127:145-9.
    3. Breslau NA, Brinkley L, Hill KD, Pak CYC. Relationship of animal protein-rich diet to kidney stone formation and calcium metabolism. J Clin Endocrinol 1988;66:140-6.
    4. Remer T, Manz F. Estimation of the renal net acid excretion by adults consuming diets containing variable amounts of protein. Am J Clin Nutr 1994;59:1356-61.
    5. Nordin BEC, Need AG, Morris HA, Horowitz M. The nature and significance of the relationship between urinary sodium and urinary calcium in women. J Nutr 1993;123:1615-22.
    6. Massey LK, Whiting SJ. Caffeine, urinary calcium, calcium metabolism and bone. J Nutr 1993;123:1611-4.
    7. Hopper JL, Seeman E. The bone density of female twins discordant for tobacco use. N Engl J Med 1994;330:387-92.
    8. Dawson-Hughes B, Harris SS, Krall EA, Dallal GE. Effect of calcium and vitamin D supplementation on bone density in men and women 65 years of age or older. N Engl J Med 1997;337:670-6.
    9. Abelow BJ, Holford TR, Insogna KL. Cross-cultural association between dietary animal protein and hip fracture: a hypothesis. Calif Tissue Int 1992;50:14-8.
    10. Feskanich D, Willett WC, Stampfer MJ, Colditz GA. Milk, dietary calcium, and bone fractures in women: a 12-year prospective study. Am J Publ Health 1997;87:992-7.
    11. Heaney RP, Weaver CM. Calcium absorption from kale. Am J Clin Nutr 1990;51:656-7.
    12. Weaver CM, Plawecki KL. Dietary calcium: adequacy of a vegetarian diet. Am J Clin Nutr 1994;59(suppl):1238S-41S.
    13. Colditz GA, Stampfer MJ, Willett WC, et al. Type of postmenopausal hormone use and risk of breast cancer: 12-year follow-up from the Nurses’ Health Study. Cancer Causes and Control 1992;3:433-9.
    14. Lee JR. Osteoporosis reversal: the role of progesterone. Int Clin Nutr Rev 1990;10:384-91.
    15. Peris P, Guanabens N, Monegal A, et al. Aetiology and presenting symptoms in male osteoporosis. Br J Rheumatol 1995;34:936-41.

    other than that, your point would be valid if i were your doctor and i’d told you to become vegan quoting only pcrm. however, i’m not and i didn’t. what i did say was that you should become vegan if you are interested in becoming vegan, and i gave some links when the idea that as a vegan you need to take calcium supplements like you need with b12 was brought up.

    and, believe me, no one thinks it’s more unfortunate that peta has the clout it has in the animal rights movement than i do. but that doesn’t make the physicians in pcrm any less physicians, or the medical research that they quote any less legitimate. you can look up their sources themselves and decide. and i’m sure that if you went to consult any of these people they wouldn’t advise you not to worry about your calcium! come on.

    as for vegan outreach, what i quoted from them actually does says most clearly “Simply avoiding animal products will not ensure optimal health. Like everyone, vegans should eat a balanced diet. Protein, Vitamins B12 and D, omega-3 fats, calcium, and iodine are important.” so i don’t understand your point.

59. You might well ask where your doctor gets his/her health and nutrition information from. Because doctors aren’t nutritionists.

    no, but they are MD’s, and they get nutritional information in their classes.

    Why do I think that the PCRM is primarily concerned with animal rights? Because it’s partly funded by PETA and its founder is on PETA’s board and it has all sorts of links with the animal rights movement?

    Yep.

    something about Frumious’ “but you’re KILLING THE PLANET by eating eggs and milk!”

    Actually, I said you are killing the planet by eating grain-fed meat, and organic produce does not offset the petroleum usage of the meat. Please, quote my sanctimony accurately.

60. physicians in pcrm any less physicians

    Try counting the actual number of physicians in PCRM. The answer may surprise you.

61. I too highly recommend this cookbook. The baked goods are superb and the other recipes are excellent without being overly complex.

    I regularly host football parties in my social circle. I cook vegan, no one complains and the food always gets eaten. And I don’t even have to get naked.

62. frumious b, i notice you didn’t reply to my point on the other thread. but ok. this is the pcrm board:

    T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D. Cornell University
    Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., M.D. The Cleveland Clinic
    Suzanne Havala Hobbs, Dr.PH., M.S., R.D. The Vegetarian Resource Group
    Henry J. Heimlich, M.D., Sc.D. The Heimlich Institute
    Lawrence Kushi, Sc.D. Division of Research, Kaiser Permanente
    Virginia Messina, M.P.H., R.D. Nutrition Matters, Inc.
    John McDougall, M.D. McDougall Program, St. Helena Hospital
    Milton Mills, M.D. Gilead Medical Group
    Myriam Parham, R.D., L.D., C.D.E. East Pasco Medical Center
    William Roberts, M.D. Baylor Cardiovascular Institute
    Andrew Weil, M.D. University of Arizona

    i think we can find at least a couple of physicians there. and btw my point isn’t to defend or praise pcrm – since i hate peta so much i’m not happy about the fact that pcrm people don’t distance themselves from them, either. i’m just saying that you can’t assume that they (or anyone else) are lying, you can’t dismiss something they’ve said, just because they’re pro animals rights. and my larger my point is that veg*an diets can be at least as feasible as omnivorous ones, and that beyond that veganism, at heart, is about maximizing compassion and minimizing harm and suffering. that’s all.

63. (Again, this may be a Southern California thing. We’ve got a lot of very bizarre vegans out here, many of whom I suspect of having an eating disorder.)

    Hmmm…I’m a southern-California vegan (not too bizarre, unless I’ve been misled), and I assure you that I take far more grilling and abuse about my diet than I would ever dream of dishing out for anyone else’s (unless severely provoked).

    As for the tossed-off eating-disorder reference: I was severely anorexic as a teenager, and my decision to become an “ethical vegetarian” at age 17 was a turning point in that battle. Yes, there are lots of people who adopt restrictive diets as an excuse to limit their total food intake—honestly, I can’t say for sure that that wasn’t part of my original motivation, and I’m emphatically not prescribing veganism as a general antidote to eating disorders. But I do know that for the first time in years, I was able to reframe each meal as a set of positive choices, rather than as a devastating network of shame/guilt/whatever, as it had seemed for years. Eating, until then, had been a profoundly and miserably self-centered experience. Casting it into a global perspective—one based on compassion and environmentalism and other embraceable virtues—probably saved my life as well as the chickens’ and cows’.

    Pangea Vegan Products has LOTS of resources for cupcake lovers, by the way….click and do a keyword search….lord, I’m hungry right now.

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