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Embryonic Personhood – Blogging for Choice Part 5

Pro-lifers argue that life begins at conception and ends at natural death. They argue that a fertilized egg is just as human as a three-year-old child. They argue that embryonic stem cell research, which could cure all kinds of diseases and save million of lives, is immoral because embryos are just as human as you or I. Embryos, they argue are different from other clumps of cells, because embryos are a human being. One professor takes these folks to task:

Thank you for responding to my letter, which took issue with points raised in your earlier NRO review of my book Challenging Nature. In your response, you continue to insist absolutely — as you have in numerous articles published on this topic — that a human embryo is a human being, while other clumps of human cells are something entirely different. Rather than continuing to debate this claim in prose, it is useful to take a more visual approach, as illustrated by comparing the two pictures below. Both show color-enhanced scanning electron micrographs of clumps of human cells. But before they were frozen for microscopy, one clump was a normal embryo, while the other was a bunch of embryonic stem cells. According to your logic, one clump was a human being, while the other was just a confined group of proteins, DNA, and other molecules. So tell me, Which one is which?

stem cells

stem cells 2

Can you tell?

The rest of the letter is fantastic. Silver writes,

I know this little exercise won’t change your mind; I present it simply for the benefit of more open-minded NRO readers. Indeed, it is pointless to debate scientific details when even simple words like “life” and “death” are interpreted by you in ways that are foreign to most practicing biologists. So instead, I would like to put to the test your ‘argument from authority’ claim, which holds that the embryo-is-a-human-being proposition “is a fact confirmed by contemporary embryology and attested to by the standard works in the field.” In fact, none of the standard texts you’ve quoted — or any other prominent biology textbook used at major nonsectarian universities — actually states that an “embryo” is a “human being?” (It won’t do to pretend that biologists use the term “human life” as a standard synonym for “human being.” Human cells growing and dividing indefinitely in petri dishes are fully alive — in biological terms — and fully human in their constituent parts, and yet you yourselves do not consider them to be human beings.)

Furthermore, if the embryo-is-a-human-being proposition really is “confirmed by contemporary embryology,” you might expect at least one of the 52 active professors in the two biology departments at the esteemed university where Professor George and I teach to acknowledge this supposedly confirmed “fact.” I challenge Professor George to identify one — just one — Princeton biology professor who shares this viewpoint. (As an incentive, if you can come up with one name, I will buy you both a case of wine from the same vineyard that produced the delightful bottle I shared with Professor George at a pleasant dinner some years ago.)

It’s important to emphasize just how thoroughly divorced from reality the anti-choice movement and radical right actually are. It permeates just about every one of their viewpoints: medical research, disease treatment, bodily autonomy, business regulation, environmental action, international policy, abortion, education. Somehow, the Republican party has morphed into a scientific laughingstock — they deny the scientific consensus on global warming; they claim life begins at conception when the medical definition is that it beings at implantation; they claim embryos are fully human, despite obvious evidence and the conclusions of biologists; they oppose teaching evolution, another scientific facts, in schools; they pass laws which require doctors to lie to women about the medical facts of abortion; they insist that contraception is an “abortifacient;” and on and on.

That fundamentalist world view is premised on the very idea that scientific and tangible facts don’t matter. What matters is “faith.” According to fundamentalists, there is one single truth, and that truth is delivered from God; no amount of reason or research or evidence can change The Truth.

As I stated in my previous letter, there is nothing — no fact or concept — that will ever make you budge from your belief in the unassailable truth of the view that an embryo is a human being. It is this form of absolutism that led me to brand you as fundamentalists, mocked in the title of your original book review. However, since I was not raised or educated in a strictly religious tradition, you could argue that I don’t really understand the difference between fundamentalists and non-fundamentalists. But there’s no need to take my word for it because the self-described practicing-Catholic and conservative pundit Andrew Sullivan reaches exactly the same conclusion about Professor George in his hard-hitting new book, The Conservative Soul. According to Sullivan, George and others who hold his extreme views are fundamentalists. Sullivan explains that “the fundamentalist does not tolerate a diversity of views. There is one truth; and all other pretenders are threats to it, or contradict it . . . Fundamentalists assert a central core idea and then contort or distort reality in order to make it fit their model.” In a world where life and death become entirely divorced from any connection to modern biological understanding, only faith remains. It is faith of a particular type, not science, that drives the belief that the embryo shown in one of the pictures above is a human being, while the other object is not. This sort of faith is not amenable to debate, which is why this will be my final word on the subject.

Read the whole thing.

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78 thoughts on Embryonic Personhood – Blogging for Choice Part 5

  1. You know, I find it sort of curious that a professor of bioethics and a professor of “jurisprudence”* are fighting with a biologist about this concept. Also, that their rebuttal is basically a lot of huffing and puffing about how unfair it is to be called fundamentalists.

    *Scare quotes because Princeton doesn’t have a law school, so it’s not wholly clear to me what Professor George teaches.

  2. They argue that a fertilized egg is just as human as a three-year-old child.

    So, I can just leave it with a babysitter then, and go have a few beers with my friends?

  3. i’m pretty sure that “professor of bioethics” is supersekrit academic code for “professor of talking out of my ass”. cf Leon “I Hate Ice Cream, Vegetarians and Women” Kass.

  4. I’m completely appalled by the pro-lifers’ response to Professor Silver’s letter. Let it speak for itself, because I’m too outraged to come up with rational commentary.

    [An embryo is] a complete, functioning human organism that, if provided with a suitable environment, will by an internally directed process develop itself towards the mature stage of a human individual

    If a human embryo is placed within its normal environment, namely, a receptive human uterus [it will] develop itself to the mature stage of a human organism

    If a group of stem cells is placed within the normal environment for the gestation of an embryo — a receptive uterus — they do not develop themselves toward maturity

    (bolding mine)
    Because the uterus isn’t part of a human being, or anything. It’s just a receptacle for the almighty zygote. Which, apparently, is capable of creating itself, no need for the mother to contribute anything but “nutrients”. The way they describe it, you’d think you could stick this “receptive uterus” on a shelf and pull out a baby after nine months, having completely ignored it in the meantime.

    Then they have the gall to end with this:

    Do human beings possess inherent and equal dignity?

    (emphasis in original)
    Only if they’re (a) male or (b) a clump of undifferentiated cells, I suppose.

  5. I’m a bit confused. Am I misunderstanding the argument?

    It seems that Dr. Robert George (the professor of jurisprudence) and Dr. Patrick Lee (the bioethicist) are arguing that embryonic stem cells are not embryos because they cannot independently develop into infants/adolescents/adults etc.

    And Dr. Lee Silver (the molecular biologist) is arguing that ES cells and embryos are equivalent.

    Drs. George and Lee do agree with pro-lifers that embryos are fully human, but do they share their stance on embryonic stem cell research?

  6. Yeah I’m a little confused as to what’s actually being debated. It seems like George and Lee are arguing that a human embryo has the potential to grow into what we would all recognize as a human being. and other clumps of cells don’t, at least not on their own given an environment that they can grow in. That seems like a pretty clear distinction that a lot of people would agree with, and I’m not sure where arguing about it gets us for pro-choice? If the only way to win this argument is to show photos and be like “well can you tell the difference visually?” then maybe it’s better not to engage in it, since the obvious counter is what I said above: yeah the amazing science-class thing is that one of those will grow into a human and the other one won’t.

    There are plenty of other really good rationales for why “the right to life” doesn’t exist until an organism no longer has to be entirely and internally supported by someone else’s body, possibly non-consensually, aren’t there? I have no problem considering embryos to be “potential human beings” and also thinking “if they make it to being actual human beings, not just potential ones, then they’ll have some rights.”

  7. “they claim life begins at conception when the medical definition is that it beings at implantation;”

    You are wrong on this point. I don’t know where you got that from, but it is just wrong. In their initial review that was linked to in the article, Lee and George cite numerous references that this isn’t the case, in case you need to look it up (Bruce Carlson, Human Embryology and Developmental Biology (St. Louis: C.V. Mosby, 2004); William J. Larsen, Human Embryology, 3rd ed. (2001); Keith Moore and T.V.N. Persaud, The Developing Human, Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th ed. (2003); and Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Mueller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition (2000)).

    “they claim embryos are fully human, despite obvious evidence and the conclusions of biologists;”

    Lee and George make it very clear that when they say that embryos are human beings, they are saying “that human embryos are living members of the species Homo sapiens.” This is an undeniable scientific fact – embryos are humans at their earliest stages of development. That is what biologists tell us. Biology can’t answer, however, the moral and legal question of whether embryos have rights. But Lee and George weren’t really concerned with that in this article. But as far as the biology goes, Lee and George are correct (but you don’t have to take my word for it, just check the references they gave).

  8. I have to say that I agree with Holly that there are other ways to get the point of the right to choose across than debating the minutiae of embryology – but I’m glad Professor Silver is challenging the supposed science. This is an argument that needs to be made on all fronts.

  9. they claim life begins at conception when the medical definition is that it beings at implantation;

    I thought the medical definition was that conception IS implantation?

  10. Scare quotes because Princeton doesn’t have a law school, so it’s not wholly clear to me what Professor George teaches.

    He’s in the Department of Politics, and teaches a course on Constitutional interpretation, among others. Looking it up, his title is the McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence; I assume it’s an endowed chair devoted to a professor teaching about legal issues, though I don’t actually know.

  11. Conception happens when an egg fuses with a sperm in a fallopian tube, and then has enough genetic material to start dividing into a zygote; that’s the point at which you have something which could grow into a human being — assuming some other person is willing, or forced, to play host.

    Pregnancy is defined as beginning with implantation, which is when the zygote has traveled down a fallopian tube into someone’s uterus and locks on there, and starts causing chemical changes that can be detected with a pregnancy test. So implantation and conception definitely aren’t the same thing. This is why there was all that fuss about Plan B, because there was some suggestion that it might not stop conception, but could stop implantation, which is like saying “don’t stop here, move along, yep, out of my body” to a clump of cells that if you let it, could grow into a human being. However there’s also evidence that Plan B works by stopping conception.

    I still don’t see why a clump of cells that could potentially become a human being if you let it attach itself to your body has an inhernet right to attach itself to your body, or to stay there once it’s attached. I mean, why is contraception OK and EC isn’t? That’s also preventing two halves of a potential human being from getting together, think of the squandered lives, every sperm is sacred. But nobody really goes there anymore except the Catholic Church.

    Personally, I think you have rights when you are part of society and can potentially communicate with other humans. (And no, reflex kicking someone’s uterus is not a form of communication.) Just coincidentally, that happens to be right around when a human is no longer inside someone else’s body. And before you become so comatose that you can no longer communicate with anyone (except in the past tense).

    I’m also leery of making shaky pro-choice arguments that can get knocked down like a house of cards, because the waffling uncertain middle of the country could be swayed in the wrong direction.

  12. Lee and George make it very clear that when they say that embryos are human beings, they are saying “that human embryos are living members of the species Homo sapiens.”

    Well, right. But so are other human cells that are not embryos.

    I have to say that I agree with Holly that there are other ways to get the point of the right to choose across than debating the minutiae of embryology

    To be clear, this isn’t an argument about being pro-choice in a strictly abortion-related way. It’s about the ways i which the pro-life movement has extended their reach into science — namely, embryonic stem cell research. That’s what the argument is about, and I think the professor makes a pretty good one.

  13. Pregnancy is defined as beginning with implantation, which is when the zygote has traveled down a fallopian tube into someone’s uterus and locks on there, and starts causing chemical changes that can be detected with a pregnancy test. So implantation and conception definitely aren’t the same thing.

    Nod. It’s an important issue, because pregnancy is something that happens to a woman – something that she should unarguably be able to prevent if she wishes in a free society – whereas conception happens to a cell.

    Birth control that prevents implantation *can’t* be considered “abortion inducing” because there is no pregnancy to abort.

    More importantly, if you consider such methods to be “wrong” (not “abortion producing”, just “wrong”) you have to explain why a single cell has more rights to invade a woman’s body unwillingly than a woman has to refuse to let it implant.

    What’s really scary about this is, “life begins at conception” was a piece of meaningless rhetoric used to justify opposing abortion at all stages of pregnancy. It has since evolved into a piece of damnfoolishness that people are taking seriously. It’s a really bad scene.

  14. I mean, why is contraception OK and EC isn’t? That’s also preventing two halves of a potential human being from getting together, think of the squandered lives, every sperm is sacred. But nobody really goes there anymore except the Catholic Church.

    Not the case; as a matter of fact, you can depend on anyone who’s explicitly pro-life to be just as explicitly anti-contraception and -sex-ed. The NYT Magazine even ran an article on how many pro-life organizations are also attacking contraception ‘as part of a mind-set that’s worrisome in terms of respecting life’.

    Don’t give the fundamentalist Right too much credit- they really are out to put padlocks on our underwear so that we don’t fall into sexy, sweaty sin.

  15. Sometimes, it’s fun to take a new set of axioms and see where you can go with them.

    Play with the “personhood begins at conception” axiom for a moment.
    Using that, EC must be much, much worse than abortion if it prevents a fertilized egg from implanting. Ditto for an IUD, which, IIRC, does the same thing.

    See, a single cell, a fertilized egg, is a person.

    But once fertilized, it starts to divide into identical cells.

    Each of those cells is a little human being. They’re alive; they’re genetically human, a human being in its earliest state of life. If placed in a proper environment, they will each grow into a separate baby.

    Preventing a fertilized egg from implanting is therefore mass murder! Abortion is merely the killing of a single baby!

    Herm. Maybe I shouldn’t post this; some pro-lifer will end up using this argument seriously.

  16. “Well, right. But so are other human cells that are not embryos.”

    Not true at all. I know somebody complained above about the language they used (“suitable environment,” “receptive uterus,” etc.) but that should be blamed more on the language that scientists use than sexism (although they may not be mutually exclusive). But Lee and George were exactly correct when they say that only embryos are the first stages of development of a human being – this isn’t the case with other human cells.

    “To be clear, this isn’t an argument about being pro-choice in a strictly abortion-related way. It’s about the ways i which the pro-life movement has extended their reach into science — namely, embryonic stem cell research. That’s what the argument is about, and I think the professor makes a pretty good one.”

    If you can tell me one thing wrong with the science that Lee and George presented, I’d like to know. Their science is impeccable as far as I can tell. The only thing I think you can disagree with is their moral stance that embryos shouldn’t be killed. But that’s not an abuse of science, that’s a disagreement over what type of scientific research is morally permissible.

  17. I’m a little surprised that the right would give a shit what embryologists or biologists think of stem cells or conception. To the “life begins at conception” people, the belief has nothing to do with biology. They believe that every time a sperm breaches an egg wall, God pulls a Sistine Chapel and touches that fertilized egg, thereby providing the egg with a soul and endowing it with all of the rights of a full human being. Sure, they might want to be able to wag their fingers and tauntingly try to say, “See? Even the scientists agree with us!” but if the scientists go the other way, then their answer would nevertheless be that their belief is based on something more important than science, which is that each human has a soul and so does each fertilized egg, and so anything that is done to terminate a fertilized egg is wrong and murderous and sinful. Any nods to science are for purely self-serving reasons, in the same way that nods to other rational, non-sectarian attempts to outlaw abortion are for purely self-serving reasons.

    What’s ironic about the doctrine of ensoulment is that it places God in the position of the biggest abortionist of all time. Between one-third and one-half of all fertilized eggs do not implant, and in diagnosed pregnancies (i.e., after discerned implantation), up to 25% end in miscarriage. So, conservatively, God ensouls and then kills fully half of the lives He creates before they’re even born. It also indicates that, even when God knows an egg is being fertilized to be used in fertility treatments or for stem cell research, he goes ahead and ensouls it, dooming that fertilized egg to be murdered.

    So, believing in the doctrine of ensoulment necessitates either believing that God Himself is a murderer (if indeed all of this egg-terminating is murder) or that because God performs abortions all the time for no reason, then humans should be able to do so too (if terminating an ensouled life isn’t such a big deal). I suppose it is possible to believe in a third option, a variation on the doctrine of ensoulment, which would assert that God picks and chooses which eggs he ensouls, because He is all-knowing and would not knowingly subject a fetal life to a soul only to never use it. In that case, of course, it’s totally fine to have abortion, because God knows that the pregnancy will end in abortion (and especially when embryos are terminated for use in embryonic stem cell research) and avoid ensouling those eggs, and in doing so will ensure that what is terminated is just a clump of cells and not worthy of the fetal worship on the right.

    Not that I believe these concepts to have been thought through by just about anyone who believes in the doctrine of ensoulment — their answer to the issues raised is to rely on ever more magical thinking about God’s Plan(tm) — but it seems like at some point a thinker with more reach than me can bring the point home for the folks on the fence.

  18. I think the big problem here is masquerading moral claims AS science, and on either side, honestly. I wouldn’t mind so much about the pro-choice arguments if doing this kind of sloppy masquerading wasn’t also paper-thin and easily poked through to look disingenuous.

    It’s much better to discredit their moral claims. Lee and George are saying that any clump of cells that could potentially grow into a human being has the right to live, specifically the right to occupy and take nutrition from someone else’s body. If we were to apply this as a general scenario, then doesn’t every clump of cells — say a strand of my hair — have the right to a cloning facility? What if there were a disease that eventually reduced victims to a clump of cells, but they could be saved by grafting that cells onto someone else’s ribcage, where they would grow back into a person? Would we say, those people all have a right to be restored to person-hood, since they’re potentially people given the right environment… come here and give me your ribcage, Dr. Brown! You were the one who accidentally exposed your coworker to the virus!

    As usual, this story would be vastly different if:
    a) we didn’t sanctify “the natural” as some sort of obviously, always desirable process
    b) men were subjected to the same thing

  19. God’s not just the worlds biggest abortionist, he also likes to play fast and cruel with those “lives”. See the NPR story and associated links regarding human chimeras. Now that’s twisted.

    For those not wanting to bother with linkage, it discusses what happens when fraternal twins fuse into one embryo. It happens, and apparently more commonly than anyone thought. You end up with people who have one set of DNA in some organs, another set of DNA in the others, depending on how much the embryos had developed before fusion. So what happens to that extra soul? Huh?

  20. Seriously, Car. I saw a show about that on TV months ago. Two women were told the children they’d given birth to weren’t thiers and after a lot of research it was discovered they were chimera’s.

    I’d like to see how the “life begins at conception” camp deals with that.

  21. Jill,
    I find it amazing that you would link to this in support of Silver. George and Lee absolutely destroy his arguments. Did you actually take the time to read what George and Lee write? I’m guessing you didn’t because you say the rest of Silver’s letter is “fantastic” when parts of the letter are just torn apart. The whole Leon Kass thing? Was that “fantastic?” Trying to mock George for not being able to change Kass’ mind only to have George cite a letter where Kass says he changed his mind thanks to George.

    How does it follow that because a group of embryonic stem cells look similar to a human embryo that a human embryo isn’t a human being? What an amazingly poor argument. How can anyone think that’s a good argument?

    they claim life begins at conception when the medical definition is that it beings at implantation; they claim embryos are fully human, despite obvious evidence and the conclusions of biologists

    The medical definition is that life begins at implantation? Care to support that statement with some kind of evidence?

    Which embryologists? Certainly not the ones who write embryology textbooks whom George and Lee cite. Which obvious evidence? Are you referring to the pictures from Lee?

    Any evidence for your claim in the comments that human cells which aren’t embryos are members of the species Homo Sapiens?

    The fundamentalist in this case is you Jill. You don’t have any evidence for your belief that human embryos aren’t human beings yet you cling to it. Why?

  22. The fundamentalist in this case is you Jill. You don’t have any evidence for your belief that human embryos aren’t human beings yet you cling to it. Why?

    The proof is so astoundingly obvious that I have a hard time explaining it. It’s kind of like trying to explain to someone why a cluster of acorn cells isn’t a tree. Will it be a tree someday, under the right conditions? Sure. Does it have a lot of the same make-up as a tree? Yeah. But it’s not a tree because, well, it’s not a tree.

    That aside, a major question is the issue of balancing morality. So-called “pro-life” people seem to elevate the importance of a fetus, or a cluster of cells that isn’t even a fetus yet, to a level above what they reserve for actual, born people (especially women). Some moral structure y’all got there.

  23. Jivin J, I’m sympathetic to some of what you’re saying, and I agree that the pictures thing is a specious diversion, but I don’t think contemporary biologists’ views on the status of a human embryo, or really on anything else, should be decisive by itself. Sure, there are certain biological processes taking place in a human embryo, just as there are certain biological processes taking place in a brain-dead person on life support. Whether these biological processes are constitutive of human life is, in my opinion, up for debate, and I don’t see why the currently prevailing opinion among biologists should be decisive, or really of much interest at all.

    Meanwhile, we all know what actually prevents abortions (thanks to Jill’s many and excellent posts on the subject), and it’s not outlawing abortion, but rather making birth control readily and cheaply available and providing extensive social welfare programs for pregnant women, so they don’t feel economic pressure to abort. Anyone who makes pro-life or anti-abortion arguments without also advocating these measures is going to strike me, at least, as clearly motivated much more by misogyny and serial killer-style control freakery than by anything else.

  24. Lee and George have also tore the acorn analogy apart.

    The books that I listed above are standard embryology books and they say that embryos are human beings. You can try to analogize that fact away all you want, but if you do, it will by you, not pro-life people, who has “extended [her] reach into science.”

    You are right that abortion is a moral issue about whether a fetus has a right to life that outweighs the right of a woman to control her body, though. And that is precisely because the science says that a fetus is a human being.

  25. “Whether these biological processes are constitutive of human life is, in my opinion, up for debate…”

    I think there is some miscommunication going on. The science is very clear that after fertilization, the result is a new, living, individual member of the human species. This is pretty much the only thing that Lee and George were arguing in their response. Nobody has shown them to be wrong on this point (because, quite frankly, they are 100% correct).

    They pointed out in their response that they have made other philosophical arguments (elsewhere) about why, as a member of the human species, it is wrong to kill embryos. I don’t really care about those arguments at the moment because I’m rather disgusted that people can go on and on about how the pro-life movement has the science wrong or how they misuse science, when people like Lee and George have the science exactly right and people like Silver are very clearly misusing science for their own agendas. (I’m not denying that pro-life people have misused science for their own agendas, I’m just saying that the article that Jill linked to in the opening post is not one of them.)

  26. macht, I think I more or less agree with you. My point was only that even if, or granted that, life begins in a biological sense at conception or implantation, I don’t think that that necessarily does or should mean that life begins in a moral or legal sense at that point, or, in other words, that I’m not sure that a clump of cells, even if it is a human life in the way you describe, is deserving of all the rights or dignity of a human life that has progressed beyond the clump-of-cells stage.

    I do wonder, though–you say that “after fertilization, the result is a new, living, individual member of the human species.” Does fertilization just mean conception, or implantation? Isn’t conception or fertilization a necessary but not sufficient condition for life, since the egg still requires implantation to survive? More generally, what’s wrong with defining life as beginning at the point where one is no longer dependent on another human being for immediate nutrition, or, say, for oxygen? Granted, babies can’t hunt dear and so forth for themselves, but isn’t it only at birth that all of the sufficient conditions for life are met? I really don’t know, and haven’t really thought this through; I’m just asking.

  27. The thing that kind of grosses me out about Lee and George’s papers is not that they make scientific arguments. Their scientific arguments, by and large, are very sound. But they’re medical bioethicists; they are not content to stick with science, they have to go further and try to derive ethics out of science. And that is where it starts to look like a house of cards. Outside of hybrid fields like bioethics, inserting your opinions and moral beliefs into a scientific paper is considered bad, biased science. If you are adroit and sophistic enough, in a bioethics paper you can pass your opinions off as something that at least harmonizes perfectly with scientific evidence, maybe even that looks like it’s supported BY science, which is semi-ridiculous. Does morality exist in atoms? In genes? Or do we impose it?

    I haven’t even touched on the fact that to many people, seeing science and ethics mixed up like this has little to do with scientific truths, and everything to do with using science as a kind of authoritative bolstering for their own point of view. And that, if you ask me, is downright unethical.

    In that acorn essay macht links, the biggest flaws I see are definitely in the huge leaps of faith they start making when talking about “personhood” and “members of the human community” and other ideas which aren’t grounded in science. They get As for embryology and logic, but everything else is tacked on from their own personal politics, and appeals to “common sense” about why we value human beings. But what is so common-sensical about this definition of a human being, a person?

    [quote]the full genetic program and active disposition to develop itself in accord with that program[/quote]

    That’s what they are holding forth as the definition of a person who deserve rights. That you have a program pointed in a certain direction, and that it’s executing. It sounds more like a computer to me, but honestly? I’d sooner grant a sentient AI human rights than a “member of the species” that is 64 cells big.

  28. For the most glaring example of the sloppily inserted ethics, here’s a real gem of a paragraph from that paper:

    Being a person is not a result of acquired accidental attributes; rather, it is being a certain type of individual, an individual with a rational nature. And human beings are individuals with a rational nature at every stage of their existence. We come into being as individuals with a rational nature, and we do not cease being such individuals until we cease to be (by dying). We did not acquire a rational nature by achieving sentience or the immediately exercisable capacity for rational inquiry and deliberation. We were individuals with a rational nature even during the early childhood, infant, fetal, and embryonic stages of our lives. If we are persons now, we were persons then. We were never “human nonpersons.”

    (italics theirs)

    In other words, human organisms always have a “rational nature” no matter what, by virtue of having growing human DNA. This is Platonic essentialism at its most ridiculous. Human organisms are all essentially rational, whether we’re a clump of cells or brain-dead in a coma? What kind of nonsense is this? Don’t even get me started about using the shorthand of “rational nature” for all of the things that define personhood, i.e. membership in a human community.

  29. “Does fertilization just mean conception, or implantation?”

    Conception and fertilization are synonyms, although I think fertilization is the term that biologists would use. It isn’t correct that fertilization is necessary but not sufficient – when a sperm fertilizes an egg, the result is an embryo that is alive. Of course, without implantation it probably won’t live very long.

    “More generally, what’s wrong with defining life as beginning at the point where one is no longer dependent on another human being for immediate nutrition, or, say, for oxygen?”

    I think you answered your own question in your next sentence, but all of us, especially, as you say, young children, are dependent on others to some extent. But even forgetting about that, it’s just a scientific fact that embryos are alive. Like I said above, if they don’t implant or if you cut off oxygen or nutrients to a fetus, the fetus will eventually die (just like you would eventually die if you couldn’t get oxygen or nutrients).

  30. Macht, do you really think “Lee and George tore the analogy apart”?

    I’m certainly not an expert, but I read your link and they seem to be making an argument based mostly on ethics, not so much science. It’s mostly about intrinsic human worth and their belief that since adults were once embryos, embryos are full human beings and entitled to full human rights while trees only have conditional worth anyway. You’re going to have to spell out the brilliant parts of the argument for the scientific laypeople, because the ethical arguments are, to put it nicely, less than compelling.

  31. Jill,
    So then your evidence is to assert the evidence is so obvious without actually providing any evidence? Gee, how persuasive. It would be nice if you could at least admit you’re completely wrong about the medical definition of life starting at implantation. If not, I wonder why you would actually believe such a thing.

    True, an acorn isn’t a full-grown oak but neither is a five-inch tall oak sapling. How does the fact that an oak hasn’t grown into a full grown tree prove that it isn’t member of the oak genus and species? A toddler isn’t a full-grown adult. Does that mean they aren’t human beings?

    The major issue in the argument between Silver and Lee and George isn’t morality at all. It’s whether a human embryo is a human being.

    I’ve never elevated the unborn to a status above born people and I don’t think most prolife people do either. From some reason pro-choicers like yourself tend to think that because we think the unborn shouldn’t be killed without proper justification that somehow they’re elevated above other innocent human beings who we also feel shouldn’t be killed.

    Heraclitus,
    If you’re trying to say that science alone cannot determine whether the human embryo has value and deserves protection then I certainly agree with you. Science can tell us whether the human embryo is a member of the species homo sapiens but it play no real role in saying whether that organism is valuable or not. For that we need to use reason and metaphysics. But the value of the embryo isn’t what was being debated – it’s what the human embryo is.

    Actually, a variety of things lessen abortions and passing out contraceptives isn’t always the only answer. I do agree that helping pregnant women is one of them. Look at the states with some of the best scores from the Alan Guttmacher Institute regarding contraception. States like New York and California. They also have the highest abortion rates. Probably because they also use tax dollars to pay for abortions, something which Jill favors, by the way. Just like England which has a rather high abortion rate even though they are probably more in line with Jill’s contraceptive policies than most of the U.S. The states in the U.S. with low abortion rates typically have a number of laws which restrict abortions and don’t use tax dollars to pay for abortions.

    AGI studies have also found that a fairly high percentage of women who have abortions are using some form of contraceptive but aren’t using it regularly.

  32. For all those that think embryos should have the legal status of persons, answer this questions:

    You are in a fertility clinic. You have an 10-month baby with you who must be carried. You also have small freezer full of 50 frozen embryos. Suddenly, the fire alaram goes off. You can a) push the freezer out of the building (it has wheels) or you can pick up the baby, but not both. What do you do? Assume the law considers the baby and the embryos as the exact same, so you would not be charged with anything for leaving the baby. Would you really argue that the moral choice is 50 babies vs. one baby? 50 preborn people just fifty “receptive uteruses” (no mention of the woman attached to the uterus) away from birth?

  33. “I’ve never elevated the unborn to a status above born people”

    Is the woman not an innocent person who shouldn’t be killed? If you think there should be no exception to save the life of the mother in the abortion laws, then the fetus IS elevated above the status of the mother. She got pregnant; therefore, she can die to allow the fetus to live.

  34. “Macht, do you really think “Lee and George tore the analogy apart”?”

    Yes. The main argument is this: acorns and embyros are at equivalent stages of life since both are embryos (an acorn has a seed in it which is an embryonic plant). That right there is enough to tear the analogy apart. Jill is right that the acorn itself isn’t a tree – the acorn is just a protective “home” for the seed. But the seed is a tree – albeit, a tree at the very earliest stages of life.

    As Lee and Sandel point out, a tree is not analogous to a human being. Rather, a mature tree is analogous to an adult human. Likewise a sapling is analogous to a small child and a plant embryo (found inside an acorn) is analogous to a human embryo.

    So implying, as Jill did, that an acorn (or, more precisely, a plant embryo inside an acorn) is not a tree is just factually wrong.

    Somebody above mentioned not being impressed by their “Platonic” mention of “kinds.” Notice, however, that it is the acorn analogy that forces them to talk of kinds. The whole point of making the acorn analogy is to say that an acorn isn’t a tree. It is a different kind of thing. How else are they supposed to respond? If you reject the Platonic essentialism that you think is implicit in this kind of talk, this is all the more reason to drop the acorn analogy.

  35. You are in a fertility clinic. You have an 10-month baby with you who must be carried. You also have small freezer full of 50 frozen embryos. Suddenly, the fire alaram goes off. You can a) push the freezer out of the building (it has wheels) or you can pick up the baby, but not both. What do you do? Assume the law considers the baby and the embryos as the exact same, so you would not be charged with anything for leaving the baby. Would you really argue that the moral choice is 50 babies vs. one baby? 50 preborn people just fifty “receptive uteruses” (no mention of the woman attached to the uterus) away from birth?

    We’ve got at least one answer to that question, amy.

  36. So an embryo’s human, macht. So what? It’s not sentient, it can’t live independent of a life support system provided by a living, breathing, adult human. What it is not — and what its mother is — is a person.

  37. “So an embryo’s human, macht. So what?”

    Well, that was the whole point of the article that Jill linked to. If you want to say a human embryo isn’t a “person,” you are free to do so, but you need to make that argument. You can’t just say it isn’t one.

  38. BTW, Amy, I’d save the baby. How about this scenario: A man comes into your living room with a handheld TV that shows 50 people you’ve never met in a small room. He hands you a gun and tells you to shoot your significant other in the head or he will kill all those people (the small room is a gas chamber). What would you do (and no, you can’t shoot the man)?

    The point is that just because you or I would make the choice to save one person over another (or many others) doesn’t mean they don’t or shouldn’t have legal/moral rights. In dangerous situations, I’d save loved ones over strangers, kids over adults, etc. But I don’t see how that would make the ones I didn’t choose any less deserving of basic legal rights. It just means I’m forced to save somebody, so my biases are going to influence who I would save.

  39. I think whether the embryo is a person or not is irrelevant. We don’t legally require anyone to use their body to keep another person alive. We just don’t. No parent is legally required to provide their child with a life-sustaining bone marrow transplant, for example. Only in the case of pregnancy do we even make this a subject for debate. Forcing women to continue an unwanted pregnancy would legally privilege a fetus over a born person. On what basis would that legal privilege be justified?

  40. So an embryo’s human, macht. So what? It’s not sentient, it can’t live independent of a life support system provided by a living, breathing, adult human. What it is not — and what its mother is — is a person.

    You beat me to it. That’s exactly right.

    An acorn (or the seed within) is not a tree. It’s simply not.
    It is a member of genus Quercus. Being a member of the genus Quercus does not automatically make the seed within the acorn a tree. It’s still a seed. An Oak seed, to be sure, but a seed none-the-less. It makes it a seed that will, under the proper conditions, grow into a tree.

    The fetus is certainly a member of our species. It is human.

    Being human does not necessarily make one a person, and being a person does not necessarily make one human.
    You are human (or not) based on your genetic make-up.
    Your genetic make-up has absolutely nothing to do with whether you are a person.

  41. I’ve tried this before but never gotten a good answer so here goes again:

    Can anyone formulate a definition of “person” which:
    1. Includes embryos from conception on
    2. Excludes brain dead people
    3. Excludes cells cultured from human material
    4. Does not count twins as a single person (or half a person apiece)
    5. Does or does not (I don’t care which way you do it, but you have to have a logical reason for your answer) include a. human clones (ie artificial twins), b. other animals with self-awareness (ie some non-human primates, dolpins, elephants, all of which pass the rouge test), c. intelligent extraterrestrials and articial intelligences capable of passing the Turing test, d. embryos produced in the hamster egg assay that divide e. embryos produced by oocyte fusion
    6. Excludes human cancer cells
    7. Isn’t based on simple prejudice.

    I would claim that one and two by themselves make this an impossible task: If death in humans is defined as when the brain stops working, how can an entity with no neurons of any sort be a living person? Number 6 is tricky too since some cancers can, if the nucleus is inserted into an anucleated egg, divide and grow into a fairly normal organism (don’t panic: it’s been tried in mice, not humans). So how is it really different from an embryo? Either one just lacks a “receptive host” to develp further. Ok, so maybe we don’t relly have the capacity to turn all these little cancer cells into full grown humans. But the least we can do is allow them to live as long as possible, even at the loss of one life (the “parent”), right? Oh, did I mention that the type of cancer known to do this is one form of testicular cancer? Well, I’m sure that there are plenty of men out there ready to make the sacrifice for their babies.

  42. Dianne, I’ve never seen the need to distinguish a “person” from a human organism. There is a long history of denying personhood to different groups of humans (based on race, sex, mental abilities, etc.) and it really scares me to think that some people think we should decide that one human has moral worth and one human doesn’t just because she is a woman or she has a different skin color than me or she is mentally retarded. All of those groups, at one time or another, weren’t considered persons or full persons. I see the denying of personhood to embryos in much the same way – only this is discrimination based on age rather than race or sex. No, embryos aren’t sentient, nor can they feel pain, nor do they look like us – but I don’t see why those things are relevant any more than sex or race. The fact is that you and I and everybody was once an embryo just like they were once an infant and a toddler and a teenager. Again, I’m just saying that we (the human race) just have a very bad history of denying humans rights based on discrimination and I think we should (at least) err on the side of caution. And I see the distinction between “human beings” and “persons” as totally unnecessary and aiding in this type of discrimination (because we have to pick some property of human beings that would make them into a person and any property we pick is necessarily going to discriminate against humans that don’t have that property, whether it be age, race, sex, or whatever).

  43. I’ve never seen the need to distinguish a “person” from a human organism.

    Then why is it ok to disconnect people who are brain dead from life support and then bury them? For that matter, why is it ok to bury people who are dead at all?

    No, embryos aren’t sentient, nor can they feel pain, nor do they look like us – but I don’t see why those things are relevant any more than sex or race

    Wow. That’s a really overt way of saying that you think that women and minorities are inferior. There’s no difference between a living, thinking, feeling, self-aware person and a one celled organism as long as the person in question is neither male nor white? Breathtaking.

    The fact is that you and I and everybody was once an embryo just like they were once an infant and a toddler and a teenager

    “I” was once an unfertilized immature oocyte and a sperm as well. Does that make unfertilized gametes people?

  44. Amy,
    The prolifers I know aren’t opposed to medical treatment to save the life of a pregnant woman as long as that treatment also attempts saves to keep the child alive if possible.

    Dianne,
    I would suggest reading Maureen Condic’s article about brain death and it’s meaning for the question after your list.

  45. The problem with your notion that we should “err on the side of caution” is that it suggests that it’s okay to deny women a right so that you can grant a special right to fetuses that no other organism on the planet is granted. Why should we “err on the side of caution” to the benefit of the fetus- which may or may not be deserving of the moral agency you’re granting it- to the loss/punishment of the woman?

    Further, I don’t know anyone who defines personhood in terms of age, so it’s not discrimination based on age at all, and it’s dishonest to suggest that it is. There are lots of different definitions of “person” and I’ve yet to see one that included any age restrictions at all.

    As long as I’m at it: The fact that something isn’t a person doesn’t mean that it doen’t have moral worth, and I don’t see where anyone has suggested that. Being a person means that you have moral obligations. A person has an obligation not to, for example, murder other people. You have an obligation to honor other people’s rights. If you violate a person’s rights, you’ve failed your moral obligation. That something isn’t a person doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have moral worth, though. I, and many others, would argue that it’s morally wrong to torture an animal. Do you think that there’s no moral problem with torturing an animal just because it isn’t a person?

    In fact, I wonder, since you appear to be quite disturbed by the injustices of discrimination, if you’re as bothered by discrimination against species? Is it fair and right that we consider it murder when a human being kills another human being, but par for the course when we kill a cow? After all, we’ve picked some property (species) of organisms that make them special (and worth moral consideration beyond the norm), and we’ve picked that property in such a fashion that it discriminates against all organisms that don’t have that property.

    If you’re going to claim that there isn’t a single trait or attribute that is any more relevant than skin color or sex when it comes to moral agency… what makes species relevant?

  46. “Wow. That’s a really overt way of saying that you think that women and minorities are inferior. There’s no difference between a living, thinking, feeling, self-aware person and a one celled organism as long as the person in question is neither male nor white?”

    I refuse to have a conversation with somebody who blatantly misconstrues what I said like you did with that statement.

  47. If you went to a diner and ordered a couple of eggs over easy, and they served you a whole fried chicken under the belief that reality does not precede potentiality, you’d leave without paying.

    Too many things can go wrong with a pregnancy all the way down the line to bestow full personhood on a fetus. This is why a woman can do everything in her power to see a pregnancy through, but if she miscarries, we don’t charge her with involuntary manslaughter (although many anti-choicers would like to). This is why we recognize that if the pregnancy goes molar (look it up if you don’t know what that means), the life of the mother must take precedent. If conception = baby, then every period a woman has that flushes a zygote that failed to implant through no action of her own becomes a bloodbath.

  48. I refuse to have a conversation with somebody who blatantly misconstrues what I said like you did with that statement.

    Translation von den Machtig: “Yep, that’s exactly what I mean, but I at least know better than to admit it in public.”

    So, if you were unfortunate (or is it fortunate?) enough to get testicular cancer of the teratoma type, would you refuse treatment in order to give the little baby cancers as long a life as possible?

  49. Mighty Ponygirl: That’s another good point. Most–probably greater than 60%, maybe as many as 80%, of pregnancies fail very early on in the pregnancy. Some of these failures are due to chromosomal abnormalities but some (around 20-25%) have no known cause. Where are the pro-life foundations dedicated to finding out the cause of these early pregnancy losses and finding ways to treat them? Why isn’t GWB proposing a major initiative with the NIH to look into these deaths? Why aren’t pro-lifers lobbying their congresspeople? Can you imagine what would happen if 80% of newborns died on the day they were delivered? People would be rioting in the streets for scientists to find the cause and stop these deaths. Yet, despite the fact that the pro-forced-pregnancy crowd claims that that very thing is happening, only a bit earlier, to most “babies” they are supremely uninterested in doing anything about it. I can only conclude that this is because they don’t believe their own propoganda either and really are just looking to punish women by forcing them to maintain an extremely dangerous physical state.

  50. when a sperm fertilizes an egg, the result is an embryo that is alive

    What were the gametes before? Dead? Spontaneous generation hasn’t been an accepted scientific theory for many years, macht. All life comes from life. If the sperm and egg weren’t alive they couldn’t form a living embryo.

  51. “BTW, Amy, I’d save the baby. How about this scenario: A man comes into your living room with a handheld TV that shows 50 people you’ve never met in a small room. He hands you a gun and tells you to shoot your significant other in the head or he will kill all those people (the small room is a gas chamber). What would you do (and no, you can’t shoot the man)?”

    Darn it I though someone might bring up that they would save the baby because of emotional attachment and I thought of adding something to the hypo to address that but I didn’t. So, here you go:

    You are not related to the baby. You ARE related to some of the embryos — perhaps you are at the clinic to have 3 of the frozen embryos implanted. By your logic, those embryos would be your children, fully protected by the law. So, who do you save? If those embryos are your children, well wouldn’t you save them as against a completely unrelated baby? One 10 month old baby vs. 50 “preborn” babies, some of which are your “preborn” children. Please make your choice.

  52. From some reason pro-choicers like yourself tend to think that because we think the unborn shouldn’t be killed without proper justification

    JivinJ, would I be correct that you believe there is no proper justification for abortion except to save the life of the mother? If so, on what basis would you justify legally requiring a woman to use her body to sustain the life of an embryo but not legally require her to use her body to sustain the life of a born person? [Unless you support legislation that would require a person to use their body to sustain the life of a born person. However, I’ve yet to find one person who actually supports that under any circumstance.]

  53. Well, I’d say you’re being generous mache. If “that argument alone is sufficent” to you, fine, but it doesn’t seem that the authors felt that way or they wouldn’t have felt the need to round out 99% of their paper with insipid platitudes about how all human beings have worth even if they’re ugly or old (I’d agree but don’t really see what that has to do with a clump of cells that lives in someone else’s body) and the contention that as an adult was once an infant and also once an embryo, a fertilized cell has identical moral weight to an adult and an infant. I’m a little surprised they didn’t spend more time on their slamdunk argument instead of all the surrounding distraction.

  54. PS: How do you envision the legal regime after all “preborn” babies are given legal protection as persons? Will we need to register every pregnant woman so we can issue a death certificate in the case of miscarriage or abortion? Will we make abortion first degree murder (it is, you know, the premeditated killing of a “preborn” human)? After two abortions, is it the death penalty for a woman? Will we prosecute a pregnant woman who wears spike heels for falling down the stairs and having a miscarriage? Sounds like negligent homicide to me. What about women who have mental illnesses or drug or alcohol problems: shall we lock them up in jail for the duration of their pregnancies to ensure they don’t harm the fetus? Tell us your vision for what life will be like for women of child-bearing age if we recognize the embryo as a legally protected human being.

  55. JivinJ, if you’re not elevating the rights on embryos above those of actual living, breathing humans, then the argument is over.

    There isn’t a human being on the face of the Earth who has the right to use someone else’s body to sustain his life.

    You can pretend otherwise if it makes you feel better, but you can’t escape the fact that you’re granting these fetii superhuman rights that no actual human being could ever claim and at the same time demoting the woman from human status wih attendant human rights to the status of a subhuman gestator for a superhuman.

    And I’m sorry, but I will never be able to understand the argument that we just need to stop pretending that women are human and force them to submit to the potentially life threatening brutal consequences of forced pregnancy and childbirth, because if we don’t then that picture at the top of the page that’s within her will, bizarrely, never be recognized as the equivalent of a newborn or toddler, and next thing you know we’ll be gassing the elderly and the disabled. Seems a bit like sophistry to me.

    Dianne, in reference to spontaneous abortion, George and Lee fudge and argue that only fertilized eggs with the capacity to, if I remember correctly, eventually form structures that govern reasoning or something like that, are true fertilized eggs and therfore true human beings. I’m just wondering, but by their definition of full rights and personhood from fertilization, isn’t that sort of an arbitrary distinction? (Hey, we start down that road, next we’ll be gassing living humans with severe developmental disabilities.) And wouldn’t it, if their distinction is acceptable to them, also make sense to suggest that embryos only reach “true embryo” status once they’ve actually developed the physical structres that make cognitive development possible? It seems like a big hole in an argument that doesn’t have all that much going for it to begin with.

    Amy, are you kidding? Yes to all of those, especially murder charges for any woman who recklessy endangers the human by thinking she has the right to walk arund free and engage in such potentially lethal activities as exercise, driving, or going up and down stairs. And preventative dentention is sort of a given, not just for addicts by really to be on the safe side why not everyone, although I’m kind of upset that we’re locking up the uterus dweller without due process.

  56. Dianne, I’ve never seen the need to distinguish a “person” from a human organism.

    Um… isn’t this what anti-choicers always say pro-choicers should have to do to prove their point?

    Honestly, I could really care less about whether or not we consider embryos or fetuses “people” for abortion rights purposes — simply because there is no other legal standard for compelling one person to use their bodies in a way that inevitably changes their bodies and compromises their health in order to maintain the life of another person. There is no validity for outlawing abortion, even if we concede that an embryo is a person.

    But embryonic stem cell research is another matter. Here, pro-lifers constantly say that an embryo is a “human life” and therefore should have the same rights as a born human person. I’ll concede that it’s a human life; I’ll concede that this life begins at conception (sort of — it might also being when the sperm and the egg which eventually create it are themselves created. Or when they’re released). But just because that’s the very start of the process which will on the off-chance become a born human person (remember, a fertilized egg is less likely to ever be a born baby than it is to not be — abortion excluded) does not make it equivalent to a born person, legally or morally.

  57. True, an acorn isn’t a full-grown oak but neither is a five-inch tall oak sapling. How does the fact that an oak hasn’t grown into a full grown tree prove that it isn’t member of the oak genus and species?

    I don’t argue that they aren’t part of the same species. I don’t argue that they aren’t “human.” I argue that they are not the moral and legal equivalent of born people. Read Dianne’s questions — just because someone has human cells or all the DNA to be human does not make it a living person.

  58. The medical definition is that life begins at implantation? Care to support that statement with some kind of evidence?

    Yeah I fucked this up, I meant pregnancy, not life. My typo.

  59. No, embryos aren’t sentient, nor can they feel pain, nor do they look like us – but I don’t see why those things are relevant any more than sex or race.

    Well, because no one is demanding that an entire class of people use their bodies to sustain the lives of people of a particular sex or race.

  60. If you want to say a human embryo isn’t a “person,” you are free to do so, but you need to make that argument. You can’t just say it isn’t one.

    Fine. Just try to claim that embryo as a tax deduction and see how the IRS feels about that.

  61. “Um… isn’t this what anti-choicers always say pro-choicers should have to do to prove their point?”

    I’m not asking that. Whether “anti-choicers” do is really beside the point. Is it possible for you to talk with me without seeing me through the eyes of whatever stereotype you have of an “anti-choicer?”

    “Well, because no one is demanding that an entire class of people use their bodies to sustain the lives of people of a particular sex or race.”

    Again, I haven’t said anything of the sort. I happen to think that the argument Lesley gave above (comment 41) and that you are reiterating here is the best pro-choice argument . But the question of whether the right to life of a fetus trumps the right to bodily autonomy of its mother is a separate question than whether a fetus has a right to life.

  62. But the question of whether the right to life of a fetus trumps the right to bodily autonomy of its mother is a separate question than whether a fetus has a right to life.

    How is that a separate question when its right to life is entirely contingent on the pregnant woman’s consent to use her body to gestate it until it’s capable of surviving on its own?

  63. For the same reason that you have a right to life but you don’t have the right to take somebody’s kidney in order to continue your life (should you happen to need one). Your intrinsic right to life by virtue of being a human being is a different issue than your right to take somebody’s kidney in order to keep on living.

  64. No, embryos aren’t sentient, nor can they feel pain, nor do they look like us – but I don’t see why those things are relevant any more than sex or race.

    This is an argument from authority, which is not my favorite sort of argument, but…The currently accepted medical definition of “dead” is “brain dead”. If a person has no brain activity whatsoever then they are dead and there bodies are not useful for anything other than spare parts or symbols for mourning. (Note: brain dead is not the same as in a persistent vegitative state. A person must have absolutely no brain activity to be declared dead. No one has ever recovered from brain death unless that 2000 year old Middle Eastern story is accurate.) So, an entity without brain activity is not a living human being, regardless of whether it is being supported to the extent that some cells in its body are alive. So by this definition an embryo is clearly not a living human. If you wish to say that life begins at conception you have to come up with some alternate definition of when it ends.

  65. I have a proposal: Men and women who are not pregnant can have the right to have a say in whether or not a pregnant woman has an abortion if and only they are willing to put up with the same risks and inconveniences as the woman who is pregnant.

    For example, the person wishing to make a decision about the pregnancy would receive a low dose of cis-platinum daily to simulate pregnancy induced nausea. As an added bonus, this would also simulate the mild immunosuppression of pregnancy. A higher dose would be used if hyperemesis gravidum occured. As the pregnancy progressed he or she could wear a “sympathy stomach”–all the time–to simulate the growing fetus. As this would not completely simulate the restricted lung capacity, he or she would also wear a corset, restricting his ability to breathe deeply. If diabetes developed, the person would have to follow a diabetic diet, take his or her blood sugar 7X a day and take an injection of saline (to simulate the insulin injections) 4+1d4 times per day. Preclampsia is a problem. I’m not sure how to best simulate that. Maybe give dopamine or other drug that increases blood pressure and remove a small piece of the liver. The real fun begins at delivery. Not sure how to best simulate that. Maybe partial ligature of the blood supply to the abdominal wall, maybe just insert a kidney stone the size of a quarter into his or her ureter.

    Then there’s complications. If the pregnant woman dies, the pregnancy companion dies. If she loses her uterus, the other person loses hers too (if female) or his testes. If she gets a c-section he or she gets a sham c-section in which the peritoneal cavity is breached and resewn. If the mother ends up in the ICU, so does the person wishing to control her pregnancy. And so forth.

    Any takers out there? Remember, I’ve only mentioned a very small number of the possible problems of pregnancy and deliberately didn’t include some of the REALLY disgusting ones.

  66. But the question of whether the right to life of a fetus trumps the right to bodily autonomy of its mother is a separate question than whether a fetus has a right to life.

    Then what, exactly, are you arguing?

    If you’re not arguing that the fetus’ potential right to life prohibits abortion, what exactly are you getting at? What’s the point of this entire conversation- Is there some instance where fetuses are having their “right to life” violated that you’re concerned about? Because, if so, it’s news to me. I was pretty sure that abortion was… you know… the big issue that people were concerned about, in regards to a fetus’ “right to life.”

    If you’re just looking for mental masturbation, why not say so in the first place?

  67. As someone with a background in both science and law (not that I’m claiming to be an expert in either one, because I’m not), I feel the need to bring those two disciplines together here. Zuzu made the point very well above, but I’d like to expand on it.

    If you want to say a human embryo isn’t a “person,” you are free to do so, but you need to make that argument. You can’t just say it isn’t one.

    Fine. Just try to claim that embryo as a tax deduction and see how the IRS feels about that.

    There is a scientific question: Is an embryo a human, i.e. a member of the species Homo sapiens? Yes. I agree that this is a scientific fact.

    But when discussing abortion, that question is irrelevant. The relevant question is a legal one: Is an embryo a “person” within the meaning of the Constitution? No, and I believe that it’s completely ridiculous to argue otherwise.

    As vehemently as pro-choicers like myself defend Roe v. Wade, I disagree with the court’s reasoning. In their decision, they weighed a woman’s Constitutional/fundamental right to bodily autonomy against an embryo’s/fetus’/unborn child’s fundamental right to life. It seems self-evident to me that an embryo does not have rights under our Constitution and it boggles my mind that this is a concept that is now probably permanently enshrined in our jurisprudence. I think it’s completely nuts.

    I am a living, breathing adult woman, a citizen of the United States, and the framers of the Constitution wrote that document with living, breathing citizens in mind. How the fuck can an embryo have rights? Does it have other Constitutional rights? The right to bear arms, the right to free speech, the right to an attorney if it’s charged with a felony? It’s ludicrous.

    I think Lee & George use lots of smoke & mirrors and frilly language to conflate the scientific question and the legal question to conclude something like this:

    embryo = Homo sapiens = human = person = “person” within the meaning of the Constitution

    Bullshit.

  68. Crap. I guess you can’t do blockquotes within blockquotes.

    Macht said: “If you want to say a human embryo isn’t a “person,” you are free to do so, but you need to make that argument. You can’t just say it isn’t one.”

    And zuzu responded: “Fine. Just try to claim that embryo as a tax deduction and see how the IRS feels about that.”

  69. Dianne, I have a better idea. Anti-choicers can be matched with women in countries where abortion is illegal who do not want to carry their pregnancies to term. Whatever fate the woman suffers, the anti-choicer has to suffer (up to and including death), and if she lives and the baby is born alive, the anti-choicer has to pay to feed, clothe, educate, and provide it with medical care.

  70. Lesley,

    JivinJ, would I be correct that you believe there is no proper justification for abortion except to save the life of the mother? If so, on what basis would you justify legally requiring a woman to use her body to sustain the life of an embryo but not legally require her to use her body to sustain the life of a born person?

    Because not sustaining the life of the embryo typically means you intentionally kill the embryo. In the same way, I’m also in favor of legally preventing people from abandoning infants, toddlers, etc. in trash cans.

    The fact of the matter is that parents have to do a number of things after birth to insure they don’t kill or endanger their child. Most of the time they have to use their bodies to do this.

    But what’s odd here is the original post was talking about human embryos which are currently outside the womb and not forcing anyone to sustain them and whether they are human beings and not whether human embryos inside a woman have the right to life.

    JM,
    There is a difference between not sustaining someone’s life and intentionally ending that someone’s life, isn’t there?

    Plus, I actually think you’re wrong. Parents have to do a number of things to sustain the lives of their born children. Feed them, clothe them, change them, etc. Sustaining the life of a child isn’t something that ends at birth. If parents fail to do these things, they are often prosecuted. I feel born children as well as unborn children have the right not to be killed. These aren’t super-human rights at all. They’re the most basic of human rights.

    Jill,
    You don’t actually argue they aren’t morally or legally equivalent. You assert it. But what’s interesting here is that the Silver/Lee/George argument had nothing to do with being morally or legal equivalent to born human beings. It had to do with whether human embryos are human beings (members of the species homo sapiens). So I’m wondering why you thought Silver’s arguments are fantasic when don’t now seem to agree with his position.

    Zuzu,
    Are you actually arguing that someone is a person or not based on whether you can file a tax-deduction for them? So then a child born 2.5 months premature on December 31 would be a person on January 1 while an overdue fetus born on January 2, would not?

    Dianne,
    Would you want your proposal to work for other things as well? Maybe those in favor of prosecuting drug addicts would have to go through the experience of kicking heroin? Or maybe those that want to prevent desperate people from robbing banks should have to live in poverty? Or those in favor of higher taxes should have to pay the highest rate? Or maybe those in favor of legal abortion would have to do through the experience of being killed?

    Did you read the piece by Condic – the link above doesn’t seem to work now? Google – maureen condic brain death first things – and then click on cache to get the cached article from May 2003 – for me it was #3 result for that search. Condic explains the idea behind brain death and why this idea points in the opposite direction of your arguments. Someone who is brain dead has suffered irreversible loss of brain function (not just a lack of immediate brain function). Human embryos haven’t suffered irreverisble damage to their brains. When brain death occurs, humans lose their ability to function as an integrated organism. Human embryos haven’t lost their ability to function as an integrated organism.

    By the way, your statement about what Macht said was out of line. He’s provided a number of persuasive arguments and done so with respect and you reply by insinuating that he’s a sexist and a racist. Not cool.

  71. When brain death occurs, humans lose their ability to function as an integrated organism. Human embryos haven’t lost their ability to function as an integrated organism.

    BS. A brain dead person can be kept “alive” indefinitely on life support that is much less complex than that needed to keep an embryo alive. We can’t even make an artificial uterus yet, but we can keep brain dead people alive for as long as we care to. So they have far better integrative function than embryos. Even if this were not true, the point is not whether the organism can be sustained, but rather should it be sustained.

    He’s provided a number of persuasive arguments and done so with respect and you reply by insinuating that he’s a sexist and a racist.

    His argument was that an embryo was the equivalent of a person–as long as the person was a minority or a woman. Not persuasive and extremely racist and sexist. It may not be “cool” to point that out, but it is accurate. Of course, it is nearly impossible to be pro-forced pregnancy and not be sexist: if you see the fetus’ life as more important than the mother’s then you are, by definition, considering her less than human. Not that that belief is always concious, of course. I doubt that most pro-lifers think of it that way. But most slave holders probably claimed that they loved their slaves. Most 19th century husbands probably claimed that they loved their wives.

    Maybe those in favor of prosecuting drug addicts would have to go through the experience of kicking heroin?

    Not a bad idea, really…On the other hand, I am unaware of any situation in which a person’s only options are rob a bank or live in poverty so number 2 doesn’t work as an analogy.

  72. Zuzu,
    Are you actually arguing that someone is a person or not based on whether you can file a tax-deduction for them? So then a child born 2.5 months premature on December 31 would be a person on January 1 while an overdue fetus born on January 2, would not?

    No, I’m arguing that personhood — a bundle of legal rights — is based on having been born, and a good way to know if your child exists as a legal person is to apply for a social security number and determine which year you can first claim the child as a dependent on your taxes. And, yes, as of January 1, only the child born on December 31 is a legal person, regardless of whether that child was born prematurely. The other child in your scenario is not a person as of January 1 because that child was not born until January 2. The due date is not some magical line.

    It’s really quite simple. Personhood is a legal concept, not a biological one.

  73. In backwards order.

    The fact of the matter is that parents have to do a number of things after birth to insure they don’t kill or endanger their child. Most of the time they have to use their bodies to do this.

    Stop. You know I’m talking about medical procedures. Not about having to use your foot to step on a gas pedal to go grocery shopping to feed a child. Really, based on your first paragraph to me, you answered exactly what I meant, so please. No one is required to undergo a medical procedure to sustain another’s life. And based on your answer, you wouldn’t support legislation to require them to for a born person, meaning you are giving the fetus rights that anyone born doesn’t have.

    Because not sustaining the life of the embryo typically means you intentionally kill the embryo. In the same way, I’m also in favor of legally preventing people from abandoning infants, toddlers, etc. in trash cans.

    Not really. The inevitable consequence of refusing to use your body to continue a pregnancy is the death of the fetus, much like the inevitable consequence of refusing to use your body to give a kidney transplant to someone who needs one immediately to survive is their death. The fetus cannot survive without the body of the pregnant woman. If it could, we would find a way to remove it from the pregnant woman while sustaining its life. That just isn’t possible with the technology we currently have. Therefore, in either case the intentional decision of the person who has to undergo the medical procedure to sustain the life of the other person determines whether the other person survives or not. I don’t think one death is morally worse than the other. Why do you?

  74. Again, no forced birth advocates are answering these questions:

    a) would you save your preborn embryo children or the 10-month old baby?

    b) tell us your preferred legal regime. No cop-outs saying “oh, we’ll leave that to the legislature once from fertilization onward embryos are considered legal persons.” You are advocating changing the law; tell us what like of world you envision. Is abortion first degree murder, premeditated killing a very significant prison sentence and/or the death penalty with aggravators, perhaps a previous abortion? If not, why?

  75. Sorry, post should read:

    b) tell us your preferred legal regime. No cop-outs saying “oh, we’ll leave that to the legislature once from fertilization onward embryos are considered legal persons.” You are advocating changing the law; tell us what kind of world you envision. Is abortion first degree murder, premeditated killing worth a very significant prison sentence and/or the death penalty with aggravators, perhaps a previous abortion? If not, why?

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