In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set || First feminist blog on the internet

Doctor, there’s a lawyer in my womb

I do love Dahlia Lithwick so. She’s got her usual good commentary upon today’s oral arguments on the so-called federal partial birth abortion ban. Apparently, it was interesting, although not for all of the reasons one might expect: In more dramatic moments in the court today, a spectator had to be forcibly removed after screaming from the gallery.

There was considerably less drama from Anthony Kennedy, who will be the swing vote in the case. The justices, Kennedy included, seemed far more focused on medical minutiae than on sweeping constitutional issues.

Kennedy does suggest, in his questions, that the government’s notion of women in emergency situations seeking to file individual “as applied” challenges to the statute is unworkable; the abortion must take place within a matter of hours, and judges would require days to get up to speed. He seems to be consistently worried about removing something from a physician’s arsenal that may put either the woman at medical risk or the doctor in peril of liability.

This begs an important question: if Congress is correct and the procedure it describes as a partial birth abortion is never medically necessary, how exactly can an as applied challenge proceed? What would you have to demonstrate to prove that an intact D&X is actually medically indicated in your own case on just a few hour’s notice? It seems as though the government is conceding the possibility that some set of circumstances, somewhere, might be enough to make a constitutional challenge. And that’s a real problem for them as they try and defend Congress’s dubious findings of fact.

Justice Stevens is unimpressed by Congress’s factual findings, some of which he describes as clearly erroneous, particularly the contention that intact D&X is not taught at any medical school, when it is in fact taught at NYU, Columbia, and Yale Medical Schools, among others. Solicitor General Paul Clement is forced to admit he doesn’t know where it’s taught.

But this is the part of Lithwick’s piece that really gets me:

A telling moment occurs toward the end of Gartner’s presentation when she allows herself to emote, to urge that this is a “very personal moral/religious decision” for a woman, often made “for very tragic reasons” over how she “wants her fetus to undergo demise.” She notes that, “Congress has legislated that for a woman.” The chief justice responds with the question: “If a woman can take into account the impact on the fetus” and its suffering, “why is that beyond the scope of things the Congress can take into account?”

Lithwick’s best answer is that it’s because neither judges nor members of Congress are doctors. They really have no way to make an informed judgment about whether a medical procedure is indicated in a given set of circumstances or not. And if you don’t know what you’re talking about, it’s best to shut up.

However, I am really bothered by Roberts’s question, and I’m having a hard time articulating why. Maybe it’s because (to steal my mother’s analogy), the law is a sledge hammer, not a finely tuned instrument. It’s not that Congress can’t consider questions of emotion, personal morality, and possible suffering. It’s that those considerations don’t generalize in a way that makes for good law. Anyone else have anything to add?


35 thoughts on Doctor, there’s a lawyer in my womb

  1. Perhaps, and just perhaps, it’s because we, as Americans, don’t want Congress to make every decision. I can take into account the development and goals of my child in deciding what they should read. So could Congress. I can make that decision. Congress can’t. Congress can’t make the ultimate abortion decision either. Not because it’s not practical, but because it’s wrong. And by wrong, I mean unAmerican. I mean unConstitutional.

  2. Roberts is asking the wrong question. There is no doubt that if a woman can ask the question, so can any arbitrarily designed body of government. One can ask, sure.

    Whether it is within Congress’ scope is a more difficult question. I think it isn’t. Legally speaking (that is, just looking at the law, not the morals), I do think that this is going to roll back to the states at some point, because the way the US is structured nearly demands it. I hope that doesn’t happen, but legally, it would be norm-seeking.

    IANAL, yet. And when I am, I probably won’t be able to be so depressing.

  3. She’s allowed to consider the fetus’s feelings for the same reasons a person would be allowed to consider the feelings of a tapeworm, if she had already chosen to believe a tapeworm posessed them, before having it chemically removed. Of course, there are those of us who wouldn’t ascribe any sentience or spiritual weight, or at least very little, to the fetus or the tapeworm, while some might give consideration to the one but not the other. Either way, in the case of the tapeworm, you’re allowed to believe whatever the hell you want about the spiritual significance of the organisms in your body, and then you’re allowed to proceed as you see fit.

    Seeing as how there are only religious reasons for choosing to feel one way or the other about parasites within the bounds of your own body, it just seems obvious to me that the topic should be off-limits to Congress. It’s like trying to legislate a ban on pork because of the sensibilities of Muslims (if we had a majority Muslim Congress).

    “Well, if Hamsa takes into consideration the defilement of his body when presented with pork – and we agree, it is absolutely horrific, this porcine toxicity – why shouldn’t we consider the possibility of everyone’s bodily defilement when deciding whether to allow the sale of pork in the US at all?”

    You can’t just take as truth and apply to law the notion that pork is a vile, unclean thing to eat, when not everyone believes that. Similarly, one’s unfounded beliefs as to the self-awareness of fetuses and tapeworms should have no bearing on gynecological or pharmaceutical policy.

  4. To answer the question- “If a woman can take into account the impact on the fetus” and its suffering, “why is that beyond the scope of things the Congress can take into account?” Congress is not there, these are rare, usually sudden circumstances demanding quick responses to prevent often deadly results. These are not circumstances in which the slow procedural powers of the law excel. Congress can put restrictions on it to ensure that there is some form of oversight and competence but in any situation demanding speedy decision-making based on rare occurences, the law is not our best tool.

  5. What Ben said.

    Just curious – I’m forgetting what the constitutional basis is for Congress to legislate in this area at all – it can’t be the commerce clause, can it?

    Justicewalks – I don’t agree that there are only religious reasons to feel one way or another about parasites within one’s body. It is not only the religious (although they are certainly the most vocal anti-choicers) that have strong feelings, one way or another, about these issues. But perhaps I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

  6. She’s allowed to consider the fetus’s feelings for the same reasons a person would be allowed to consider the feelings of a tapeworm

    Most women undergoing D&E are losing very wanted fetuses who they have already come to think of as their children. Comparing this choice to a no-brainer like removing a tapeworm is trivializing a devastating moment in someone’s life. A lot of people on the fence are driven away from the pro-choice movement by the callousness of this argument. The fact that the so called pro-life movement is even worse in their callousness to the lives and heath of women does not excuse this insensitivity on the part of many in the pro-choice movement.

    Whether they are “human” or “persons” or not, embyos, fetuses, etc. are homo sapiens genetically. One does not have to be a religious loony to believe that this is significant. That does not mean my embryo or fetus has a right to my womb, any more than my five-year-old has a right to my left kidney, should he need it. It does mean that abortion is a more significant decision than tapeworm removal and should be recognized as such.

  7. I heard that clip on the radio, and she did rebut that what they shouldn’t be doing is taking away the option for the woman to decide what’s in her best physical and mental health interests. I thought that was a good way to deflect the weirdness that he brought up.

  8. Just curious – I’m forgetting what the constitutional basis is for Congress to legislate in this area at all – it can’t be the commerce clause, can it?

    I think it is. The commerce clause has long been assumed to encompass medical and health issues.

  9. Whether they are “human” or “persons” or not, embyos, fetuses, etc. are homo sapiens genetically.

    So are somatic cells (ie the cells in your intestines that slough off every day, at which point they are digested and the unusable bits discarded as part of your stool…every bit as human as human as an embryo), unfertilized gametes, and cancer cells (well, until they speciate in culture…see Hela cells). So are brain dead people when they are torn apart for spare organs and removed from life support.

    I actually agree generally with your larger point: women having abortions at >20 weeks almost always do so because of some tragic problem with the pregnancy and appreciate it if the fetus is treated with respect, but using genetics as the basis for declaring something “human” is a very dangerous game and would lead to unintended consequences if followed through logically.

  10. As others have indicated, one thing that’s scary about the *way* it’s formulated is that, without further qualification, it’s more or less a denial of liberalism (in the Millian sense) altogether. If it were phrased slightly differently–say, something like “if you concede that one of the things that potential patients will consider when deciding is the harm to the fetus, haven’t you already acknowledged that this isn’t a private matter, but one that involves harm to others, and hence is precisely the sort of thing that governments ought to settle?” it would seem much less sweeping, even if still troubling on its own.

  11. The question itself makes no logical sense at all. He’s essentially asking “If a woman is capable of making a decision for herself, why shouldn’t the government make it for her anyway?”

    And I agree that they disregarding the individual tragedies in question. By their nature, laws must always be abstracted to a level generic enough to apply to all people, which is exactly why abortion doesn’t belong in the legal arena. They’ve been searching for decades for the magic set of generalizations that will let them wrap laws around it, but they haven’t come up with anything. Every single case is utterly unique and personal, and law will be of no help there.

  12. So are somatic cells (ie the cells in your intestines that slough off every day, at which point they are digested and the unusable bits discarded as part of your stool…every bit as human as human as an embryo), unfertilized gametes…using genetics as the basis for declaring something “human” is a very dangerous game and would lead to unintended consequences if followed through logically.

    Of course cell genetics alone don’t determine whether or not something is human. In the post I was responding to, both tapeworms and fetuses were referred to as “parasites.” So, I was assuming that they both were understood to have lives independent of their hosts, even though they are utterly dependent on them.
    Do you really believe that there is no significant difference between discarding somatic cells and miscarrying an embryo? that mourning a miscarriage is as irrational as mourning my somatic cells every time I take a shit? Would it be as reasonable for me to demand to have my tapeworm put on life support as it would for me to demand that my premie be put on life support?
    These questions seem absurd to me, which would be fine if they didn’t also do such serious damage to the pro-choice movement. We should be focusing on woman’s right to bodily autonomy, being against forced childbearing. Arguing against the humanity of the embryo/fetus is a losing game.

  13. It’s that those considerations don’t generalize in a way that makes for good law.

    I think you got it. Necessity for and decisions to get D&X procedures are highly specific and idiosyncratic in a way that doesn’t make them amenable to good policy decisions.

  14. Do you really believe that there is no significant difference between discarding somatic cells and miscarrying an embryo?

    It depends on the emotion that the woman involved gives to the event. Many, maybe most, women miscarry at least once in their lives–about 50-80% of conceptions end in miscarriage before any clinical signs of pregnancy are apparent. Most probably don’t implant. Have you ever had a slightly late period after a condom breakage? I have. I probably discarded an embryo in a sanitary pad that month. I felt no emotion except profound relief, even though I knew that this pattern might indicate an early pregnancy loss. On the other hand, a friend of mine who is struggling with infertility was deeply distressed when she had a very early miscarriage, even though she only knew about the pregnancy because of highly sensitive beta-HCG testing–physiologically she simply had a normal menses, two days late. But in neither case did the embryo ever feel anything–the neurology needed to feel anything simply didn’t exist any more than an appendix feels distress at being removed. Less, appendixes are innervated, embryos at that stage have no neurons.

    You can make a case for the need to consider the feelings of a fetus when discussing abortion, but not for the need to consider the feelings of an embryo. Developmentally, there’s just nothing there to talk about and worrying about how the embryo feels about it really is comprable to worrying about what the tapeworm thinks of your taking an anti-parasitic drug.

  15. that mourning a miscarriage is as irrational as mourning my somatic cells every time I take a shit

    Women with pseudo-pregnancies mourn when they find out that they aren’t really pregnant, a mourning as deep and real as if they had been pregnant and miscarried. Parents of children with severe developmental problems often have to mourn the loss of their imagined “normal” baby before they can bond properly with their real child. Would you tell either of these groups that their mourning is irrational?

  16. “If a woman can take into account the impact on the fetus” and its suffering, “why is that beyond the scope of things the Congress can take into account?”

    Because it isn’t going on inside Congress’ body? Because she’s already spent X months thinking about this fetus and Congress hasn’t? Because she has to live with whatever decisions are made and Congress doesn’t? Because no good is served by Congress banning a procedure knowing full well it isn’t going to save a single life but that the ban will cause some amount of morbidity and mortality?

    I was reading the transcript and I was so angry. Law isn’t my area: are there other cases where Congress has enacted laws prohibiting specific and subtly distinguished medical acts?

  17. Dianne,
    Of course there’s no doubt that an embryo can’t feel pain, I didn’t mean to imply that it could. But, an embryo is more comparable to a parasite, which has it own life even though it’s dependent on its host, than an appendix, which is just part of a living being. An embryo will either die or develop into a fetus and then a viable human. That’s why some people get emotional about the loss of an embryo whereas no one mourns their appendix, or somatic cells. There are rational reasons for the emotional reactions. When a miscarriage happens, a life has ended. One’s emotions will be different depending on whether they wanted to create, grow and nurture that life or not.
    But again, my main point is political. Whether you believe abortion ends a life or just the potential for one a few months down the road, insisting that an embryo is just a bunch of cells when so many people have been so intensly, emotionally attached to theirs – watched its little heart beating on the sonogram and all that. It is a losing game. If the pro-choice movement chooses to focus on this point, we will start to lose ground again. We need to focus on the privacy of medical decisions, being against forced childbirth, for bodily autonomy etc. If we insist that the embryo is not alive in any meaningful sense a lot of the people who have swung over to our side as the right wing has gone no-health-exemption and anti-contraception crazy will start to swing back. We’ve just started to win again, lets not shoot ourselves in the foot.

  18. And in the other cases you describe, the loss is of a life envisioned, which again, somatic cells and appendixes don’t have. That’s part of what makes embryos unique.

  19. “If a woman can take into account the impact on the fetus” and its suffering, “why is that beyond the scope of things the Congress can take into account?”

    The responses above, I think, don’t seem to get the point of the question.

    I haven’t seen the whole transcript, but from what I understand, Gartner opened the wrong door and Roberts called her on it.

    To put it in general terms: the strongest arguments favoring abortion rights have to do with intrusion into the woman’s autonomy and rights of bodily integrity. Gartner, however, apparently (it’s hard to tell) threw in an added argument to the effect that a ban on some types of abortions would infringe on another important freedom: the woman’s prerogative to determine how an issue with a deeply affecting emotional component should be resolved. (The decision is a “very personal moral/religious” one, is “very tragic”, and has to do with how she personally wants the matter taken care of.)

    Roberts, apparently (it’s hard to tell), interpreted this to be an invocation of some sort of regard for the fetus, or a decision about what the woman feels would be the best way for the fetus to have its life ended. (The “impact on the fetus”; the “suffering” of the fetus.) That is not a matter grounded on a woman’s right to personal bodily autonomy. It’s a question of decision-making authority regarding another party (the fetus). And those questions are ones the government can traditionally regulate, even in cases in which the government recognizes a strong right on the part of the citizen to make that decision according to their own values. (For instance, you can choose what kind of school your children attend, even a “home school”, but you cannot let them go uneducated. You can make medical treatment decisions for your children according to your religious values, but only up to a point; the government insists upon certain standards of treatment even if they conflict with your values. Perhaps more relevantly, the government imposes standards on preserving and burying dead bodies which preclude your right to, say, keep it at home [unless you’re Rick Santorum] or hold a Viking funeral. The mere fact that you feel strongly about something doesn’t mean the government can’t intervene.) So, if there is a question of the best way to treat the fetus – one that pits people’s personal values against some notion of social interest or social values – the government has a stronger claim to intervene than if the question is purely one of the woman’s entirely self-regarding decision about her own body.

    From that perspective, then, when Gartner said a woman must be able to make abortion decisions because such a decision invokes her personal values and is deeply tragic, Roberts responded by asking why the government can’t put limits on that decision (as it does with education or medical care for minors). She might have been better off sticking with the bodily integrity line.

    On the other hand, the whole thing is kind of strange, because treating this as a question about what is best for the fetus is off-base for a number of reasons. It’s clearly the least important question, and I don’t know how the fetus got “interests” in the first place. It would certainly be a mistake for Gartner to invoke some kind of parental prerogative to make decisions about the fetus (that would be conceding fetal personhood, which is both false and a tactical mistake), but equally the government can’t assert an in loco parens right to protect the fetus for the same reason (the fetus isn’t a child, and doesn’t have interests). More to the point, it seems a real stretch to assert that there is any kind of fundamental right to “make decisions about the method of demise of your fetus”, as distinct from a fundamental right to abortion – the latter is a vital part of personal autonomy as a basic liberty, but the former sounds like some kind of aesthetic issue.

    Sounds to me like a wrong turn in the argument, but I suspect it won’t play a big part in the final decision.

  20. I think that we can recognize the significance of an embryo/fetus and still recognize a woman’s right to not carry it. I think it’s apparent that an embryo is more significant to a woman than a somatic cell because of the impact it could have on a woman’s life. A somatic cell, if not sloughed and shat, is a cell in a woman’s intestine. An embryo that isn’t sloughed off and out grows, barring miscarriage, into a human being, and demanding that any woman use her body to grow a human being against her will is outrageous.

    When a coworker of mine was pregnant, she called me over one day to feel her seven-month fetus have the hiccups. It was a really profound moment for me and has changed my life in a number of ways, but one thing it did was make me more committed to being pro-choice. I realized that there was a little being in there, a being for whom my coworker was going to have so much responsibility and for whom she already cared so much. And I felt, more than ever, that no woman should ever have to go through that unless she does want the pregnancy as much as Holly did.

    An embryo is more significant than just any other clump of cells. To a woman who wants a baby, it’s the miracle of life, and to a woman who despairs at being pregnant, it can be like the end of her life. I’m pro-choice not because I think that a fetus is just a clump of cells until it sees sunlight, but because I think that it should always and absolutely be a woman’s decision, and only hers, as to what happens to that clump of cells.

  21. What Kaethe said.

    Also, I know someone who had an abortion on a wanted pregnancy due to the fetus having a neural tube defect incompatible with life, and I’m pretty sure she had an intact D & E. One of the things she said was that after it was over, she and her husband were able to hold the body, and their priest was able to baptise it. That was a major comfort to them, because they were pretty damn devastated. Also, while apparently the body was brought to them carefully draped, they asked to see the covered-up portion, and she said it was a huge relief for them to be able to see with their own eyes confirmation that they’d made the right call, that their child couldn’t have survived outside the womb.

    I was talking about this case with another acquaintance (no names, of course) who remarked that it didn’t “count” as an abortion because it sounded like she’d had a C-section. The guy got extremely uncomfortable when I said that no, she’d been specifically advised that a C-section would be more of a risk to her health and fertility than an abortion. And since she had herself, her husband, their toddler, and possible future children to think about, she went with the safest option. And the safest option also allowed her and her husband to get some closure on a tragic event for their family. The acquaintance didn’t like hearing that at all.

    His mindset seemed to be that only ‘bad’ women have intact D&E, therefore since she obviously wasn’t a bad woman, she COULDN’T have had the procedure in question. He didn’t seem to understand that maybe there are times when that procedure (regardless of how distasteful he finds it) is the least bad choice ANY woman can make. And the best thing the rest of us can do is stay out of it and let the woman in question make the least bad choice in consultation with her doctor.

  22. If I was nourishing a botfly larva in my body, I would mourn its loss if it died. Of course, I would much prefer to have a botfly than a fetus.

  23. And in the other cases you describe, the loss is of a life envisioned,

    Exactly. So claiming “an embryo must be a baby because women mourn when they miscarry” is a logically flawed argument. The act of mourning itself does not confer any personhood to the embryo.

    which again, somatic cells and appendixes don’t have.

    Give it a few years. Cloning, you know. I’m semi-serious. If a somatic cell were a potential baby, given minor adjustments in its cytoplasmic environment and epigenetic changes, would it suddenly make sense to mourn the loss of your intestinal lining? It seems to me that if a just fertilized oocyte is a person because of its genetic component, then a somatic cell is too. At least potentially. But a fertlized egg in isolation is never going to turn into a baby either. Check out the discards from IVF sometime. A little care, the right environment and your discarded appendix might just grow up into little Kate someday.

    I understand what you’re saying and, of course, a nice out-of-context quote comparing an embryo to an intestinal worm would shock any number of people. And of course the mourning of women who miscarry–or have abortions for medical reasons–is real. But the mourning of people who are infertile, of women who have “lost” a pseudopregnancy, etc is real too. Even though there is no question at all of there being a “baby” in those cases.

    It’s important for us to keep reality clear in our own minds. And the reality of it is that there is no way to come up with an internally consistent definition of “human being” that includes all fertilized eggs but excludes somatic cells and the brain dead and doesn’t count monozygotic twins as a single person . Either you have to grant that the phenotype makes a difference or you have to consider every last cell that contains 46 chromosomes (+/-1) to be a human being with human rights.

  24. ACG – well said

    My own pregnancy made me both more pro-choice and more conviced that those little clumps of cells are very tiny, underdeveloped humans. Although my life was never in danger, I had vertigo so bad for the first three months of my pregnancy that I couldn’t drive, and would even get dizzy walking across the room. I did what I wanted to do, and I was lucky to be able to make that choice- some people can’t spend three months lying on their couch, even if they might want to. I would never force that on anyone else and don’t plan to attempt it again myself. But, those little beating heart sonograms are very powerful, and for me it was love at first sight. We need to focus on bodily autonomy. We’ll lose the emotional voters – and they are the swing voters – if we try to convice them that their beloved little blobs aren’t really their children yet.
    Justicewalks and Nymphalidae – if you want to turn the mushy middle pro-life, keep comparing their beloved little blobs to tapeworms, insect larva and other parasites.

  25. I very much question exactly how “mushy middle” someone actually was if they became anti-choice due to hearing/seeing a fetuses compared to parasites. Having your own kid called a parasite is certainly offensive for some. However, if someone can empathize enough with a woman suffering an unwanted pregnancy to understand the fetus is a parasite in that instance; that’s a powerful wedge away from being anti-choice.

  26. Undersanding the biological similarities between a fetus and a parasite is what made me firmly pro-choice. Just saying. (Catholic education, and the way the debate was framed in school had me mushy-middle for a while as a teenager.)

  27. The “mushy middle” I’m talking about isn’t composed of people who haven’t had the issues explained to them. I’m older than a lot of you, I think. The people I’m talking about are in their thirties, forties and fifites and have been flipping back and forth every few election cycles for decades. These people vote with their guts. Their guts tell them that they should feel sympathy both for the “mother” and the “unborn baby” (and that’s exactly how they think about it). Any intellectual argument which tries to explain to them why their feelings might be wrong they view as “cold” and it just pushes them towards the other side. From the pro-choice movement, any rhetoric which seems to trivialize the life of the “unborn” disgusts them. Any argument from the so-called “pro-life” movement which suggests that a woman should be forced to bear a child that she doesn’t want also disgusts them. If they were interested in intellectual content they would have chosen a side years ago. Unfortunately, these people who swing back and forth are the ones actually making the decisions in this country (scary!). To get their votes, we need to focus on the effects of anti-abortion laws on women and bodily autonomy because this is the aspect of the issue where they agree with us already. We will not be able to change their minds on other points with intellectual argument. Discussions like the ones here are great for college campuses, femist blogs and to convince people in their teens and twenties. Just don’t try taking these arguments to the larger PR level – they will backfire. Clinton had the winning slogan on abortion – safe, legal and rare.

  28. those little beating heart sonograms are very powerful,

    The sonograms are cool. But they lose some of their mystic power when you’ve seen a heart beating outside of a body just before it is transplanted or just after it is removed from the donor and realize that really a beating heart doesn’t mean all that much. Much more powerful for me was when the cute little parasite started playing kick-the-hand (when I put a hand over my uterus the CLP would kick curiously at the new spot of pressure or warmth). Interaction, even if probably only instinctive interaction, made it suddenly seem like there might be an actual baby instead of just a 9 month long bout of fatigue and nausea. But, of course, that didn’t happen until very late in the pregnancy…long past the point when anyone would consider a purely elective abortion.

  29. Kate, do you have any concrete evidence that rational appeals to the fetus’s non-sentience are counterproductive?

    Kevin, the best analogy here is choosing a partner. A person is allowed to consider everything he wants in a life partner. It’s legal for people not to want to marry people of other races, as it should be. It’s illegal for any legislature to ban interracial marriages, as it should be.

  30. I can give you anecdotal evidence Alon, I don’t know how much it proves though. When I was on the fence, realizing I really didn’t believe abortion should be criminalized but yet unwilling to describe myself as pro-choice, I would come close to accepting I was deep down pro-choice and then I’d read something comparing a fetus (like the one I was carrying at the time) to a parasite or a tapeworm and feel him kick and want to puke and I would decide again that the pro-choice camp did not speak for me. Now, I am solidly pro-choice but comparisons to tapeworms or shit cells really make it hard for me to embrace talking points because I know as a pregnant woman, I found them hideously offensive. Talk to me about the right to my own body, to make choices concerning my health, my life, etc… and I am on board. Tell me that a fetus is no more important than something I shit out, or a disgusting worm that hangs out in my digestive tract and I find it extremely insulting. My pregnancies were hard on my body and I got it through it simply because those were my “babies” and it was important to me. I can sympathize with women who don’t want to be pregnant, I’ve been there. I also feel like they have the right to think whatever they want about those pregnancies but from my own feelings and those of many of friends while they were pregnant, that to me to embrace those things as the mainstream talking points seems like it would turn off a lot of pregnant women. Not all, I’m sure… there are a lot of people who aren’t particularly sentimental about their fetuses, but I know that I and most of the people I know tend to be. Also, keep in mind that with this particular ban/case we’re talking about much wanted pregnancies where the women probably are doing a great deal of thinking about the fetus and what’s going to happen to it. I know when I was told that our second child wasn’t going to survive after birth, my husband and I did a great deal of thinking about how each choice we could make would affect Kyle. Had someone told me he was no important than a tapeworm, they likely would’ve been punched. Now I was lucky in the respect that I had some time and a variety of choices available to me. Had time been of the essence, we may have had less choices and not been able to consider the effect on him as much, but it would have been a primary concern no matter what. In terms of legal arguments, I may think that it’a slippery slope to enter down, but it terms of how it effects real people, I think telling women that we don’t think their very much wanted fetus/child/baby means anything is hurtful. Different people process things in different ways, I know Dianne mentioned that an early miscarriage probably wouldn’t bother her, but I know I was devestated when I had a miscarriage at 5 weeks and it was an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy to boot. Different strokes for different folks. I really think keeping abortion solely in terms of a woman having the right to decide what happens in her body runs the risk of offending no one but assholes who think they get to decide what happens in another person’s body and considers the needs/feelings of both women carrying unwated pregnancies and women carrying very much wanted pregnancies.

  31. It seems to me that the big problem here is that both styles of argument appeal to different people. Ideally, there would be room for both arguments. Kali has had different experiences than Kate, and thus she finds a different argument more persuasive.

    The problem, of course, is that the particular arguments that one person finds persuasive is an argument that another person finds repulsive. I tend to think that this is probably exacerbated by blogs, because blogs are by nature not targetted at any particular demographic group.

    Then again, I’m not entirely convinced that age has anything to do with this. It seems to be experiences. It seems to me that a woman who never really wanted kids is a lot more likely to be persuaded by the “fetus = parasite” argument, and a lot less likely to be persuaded by the “I fell in love with the heartbeat” argument. Whereas a woman who always wanted a baby would be repulsed by the “fetus = parasite” argument.

    I think that the key is to keep in mind that whatever argument persuades you personally, there are people out there who have had different experiences. Therefore, it is vitally important that if a person is going to make either argument, that she present it in such a way as to minimize the offense that the other side might feel.

    For example, when comparing a fetus to a parasite, it is important to include a setup scenario that would explain why some women might feel that way about their pregnancy. Likewise, when pointing out that some women fall in love with their babies as soon as they hear the heartbeat, one should keep in mind that all some women hear is that they are abnormal for not immediately falling in love with their “baby”.

  32. Well, Julie, my anecdotal experience is in a way the opposite. I’ve convinced a few people, or at least instilled doubt in their anti-abortion views, by talking about neural development and sentience. I didn’t use the tapeworm analogy – it works only if you have neurological evidence, but in that case you’ve already killed the argument for fetal rights – but I did refer to fetuses as non-persons.

    Anecdotes conflict with one another all the time. That’s why hard evidence is needed for anything.

  33. This may seem a little bizarre, but I’m actually a bit offended by the “fall in love with the heartbeat” argument. That is, not offended that someone might fall in love with the heartbeat or the ultrasound or the blue line on the EPT for that matter, but the implication that if you don’t do the same you’re a heartless #$@*& who will probably throw her three month old out the window for having colic. Or something like that. I didn’t fall in love with the heartbeat, partly because I know what the presence of a heartbeat really means, which is darned little. I fell in love with the reacting, interacting 8 month old fetus (which is probably still irrational since the “interaction” was almost certainly pure instinct).

    As I said, I have no problem with anyone feeling that they could never abort a pregnancy or would only do so under the most extreme situations (as Julie did) because they fell in love when they heard the heartbeat. I’m quite open to the idea that it is impolite to compare an embryo, however early, to a tapeworm and that doing so in front of a pregnant woman could lead to being punched. It’d probably be deserved (ahem, not to condone violence or anything…).

    But I very much dislike the argument that one must not say any such thing for fear of driving people away from the pro-choice viewpoint. Because I resent the idea that I can’t tell what is, biologically, the simple truth: a newly coneived blastulocytst has no more ability to think or feel than an intestinal endothelial cell and considerably less than a tapeworm–simply because it might offend someone who can’t separate out the biology of the situation from their feelings. I’m angry because these people hold my life–and my daughter’s life–in their hands and are willing to throw it away because they are offended at something I might have said. Pregnancy is dangerous. Women die during pregnancy and, especially, at delivery. I had obstructed labor and have a uterine scar I don’t trust in the least and don’t want to be forced to experience uterine rupture just because someone found the tapeworm analogy distasteful.

  34. I doubt we’d get more than anecdotes on this. I will point out however Julie, that while you found/find the comparison offensive, you did not in fact become an anti-choicer. I think that if anything, the comparison simply makes people hesitant to make the commitment. I doesn’t turn people to the other side who aren’t really there already.

    Also, I think tuna hits the significant clarification that should be used. The embryo/fetus of a wanted pregnancy isn’t a parasite. It’s only when it is unwanted does that comparison become accurate.

Comments are currently closed.