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Thoughts on the headscarf from those who know better than I do

Ilyka’s post on the veil has generated an interesting discussion. Central to a lot of the comments seem to be assumptions about why women wear the veil — and the idea that all veiled women wear it for the same reasons. Or that somehow wearing the veil is always coerced, while non-Muslim Western women have full “choice” in what we wear. Or that the veil, which I also believe is a patriarchal symbol, has static meaning — that is, its purpose and the message it sends don’t shift in different contexts.

I wanted to do a “quote-of-the-day” thing here, but there are too many good ones to choose from. The following are from readings I’ve been doing for my Gender and Islamic Law class, and are specifically about the hijab. At some point, I’ll try and do a post about conflicting histories of hijab, and various theories as to whether or not it’s required. For now, consider the various ways in which women’s rights may not be any more incompatable with Islamic societies than they are with Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or Jewish societies. Consider how hijab operates in societies where it’s not required. Consider the various ways in which veiling offers Muslim women in Western societies a greater degree of freedom, elevated respect in their communities, and a more defined sense of identity. Consider whether it’s particularly effective for Westerners to attack the veil as something “backwards” and “oppressive” and simultaneously something uniquely Arab and Muslim. Now, some thoughts from women who know, and whose voices are too often conspicuosly absent in this debate:

“With the expansion of European power and influence in Ottoman/Middle Eastern economies and politics, a huge body of “scholarly” and travel accounts of the people of the region emerged. Consderable attention was paid by (mostly male) European writers to veiling practices (and, to a lesser degree, polygyny), and the alleged objectionable treatment of Muslim women by their male kin. Implicitly or explicitly, the mission of these writes was to depict Muslim cultures as inferior/backward and in need of progress. It is important to note that modesty — particularly expressed through clothing and through varying degrees of gender segregation — has historically been practised by a wide variety of communities, including most Mediterranean peoples, regardless of religion. Indeed, prior to the nineteenth century, the veil was never viewed as a symbol of Muslim culture; the practice of the veiling and seclusion of women is in fact pre-Islamic and originates in non-Arab Middle Eastern and Mediterranean societies. Historically, veiling — especially when accompanied by seclusion — was a sign of status and was practised by the elite in the ancient Greco-Roman, pre-Islamic Iranian and Byzantine empires. Muslims subsequently adopted the veil and seclusion, and today it is widely recognized, by Muslims and non-Muslims, as an Islamic phenomenon, presumably sanctioned by the Qur’an … It is n oteworthy that it is only since the nineteenth century, after the veil was promoted by colonial occupiers as a prominent symbol of Muslim societies, especially in the travelouges and scholarly publications noted above, that Muslims have justified veiling as Islamic rather than as a cultural practice.”

It is important to point out that various religious groups emphasize modesty among their followers. I’m certainly critical of this, as the modesty requirement usually shames women more than anyone else, and stems from a perspective which sees the human body as shameful, and the female body as representing sex. But this perspective is in no way unique to Islam. That’s important not because it’s an excuse, but because it diffuses the argument that “Islam and modernism are incompatable.” If women can attain greater rights in Christian societies, they can certainly attain greater rights in Islamic societies.

Further, the author here points out one of the primary problems with orientalist scholarship: Since it lacks a comprehensive understanding of the communities it studies, it often misattributes cultural practices to religious ones, and vice-versa. This has been a major issue with the headscarf, the veil, female genital cutting, etc. Those things were cultural practices, and were entrenched long before the time of the Prophet; even after his time, they weren’t all that widely practiced. The Qu’ran requires its followers to present themselves modestly, but nowhere does it require women to cover their hair or their faces. Nowhere does it prescribe clitorectomies. But when Western scholars ventured into the “orient,” they made the link between religion and the veil, and religion and genital cutting. Westerners and colonizers have a great deal of power, especially when their dominance is premised on the notion of their superiority. So their perceptions and reports on Arab/South Asian/North African/Persian/etc communities they studied became the dominant narrative, and shaped the discourse from then on out. When they presented the veil as a “Muslim thing” and then attempted to colonize Muslim nations and forcibly remove or discourage veiling, the people in those Muslim nations reacted by holding fast to their traditions as religious symbols. We see now where that took us.

I’m not arguing that the veil/headscarf/hijab/other covering is not a religious symbol. But I am suggesting that it evolved into being a religious symbol, and perhaps wouldn’t have been quite so contentious if Western Orientalist scholars (and Western people in general) hadn’t been quite so arrogant in their forrays into other countries and cultures.

The authors of this piece also point out that making statements through clothing is nearly universal. What we wear can be a silent protest:

“Given the continued absense of democratic participation and the omnipresence of censorship, it is not surprising that for the populace clothing remained an important vehicle for political expression and for contesting state ideology … It was in this context that the world witnessed the arrests, during the 1980s, of male students attempting to enter Egyptian universities in traditional Egyptian clothing. Few Egyptians were surprised that they were charged with the political crime of subverting the state. Similarly, the ban against Turkish women wearing headscarves when attending university, taking official exams or sitting in Parliament stemmed from the recognition that their presence represents a rejection of the state ideology. Thus it is not surprsing that the presence of veiled women — women clothed in long, loose dresses and head coverings — has attracted so much attention nationally and internationally.”

Consider the example of the Turkish Muslim feminist who wears the hijab not because she believes it’s religiously required, but to show solidarity with all the hijabed women who are kicked out of their university classes when they refuse to remove their headscarves. In her context, does the headscarf hold the same meaning as it does in a country where it’s required, either socially or legally?

The above quotes are from the introductory section to a survey of Canadian women who choose to wear the veil. What becomes apparent is that veiling, for a lot of women, offers greater freedom as they try to straddle the gap between conservative families and more permissive Western societies. From one nineteen-year-old Palestinian-Canadian woman:

“The veil has freed me from arguments and headaches. I always wanted to do many things that women normally do not do in my culture. I had thought living in Canada would give me that opportunity. But when I turned fourteen, my life changed. My parents started to limit my activities and even telephone conversations. My brothers were free to go and come as they pleased, but my sister and I were to be good Muslim girls. Even the books we read became subject to inspection. Life became intolerable for me. The weekends were hell.
Then as a way out, I asked to go to Qur’anic classes on Saturdays. There I met with several veiled women of my age. They came from similar backgrounds. None of them seemed to face my problems. Some told me that since they took the veil, their parents know that they are not going to do anything that goes against Muslim morality. The more I hung around with them, the more convinced I was that the veil is the answer to all Muslim girls’ problems here in North America. Because parents seem to be relieved and assured that you are not going to do stupid things, and your community knows that you are acting like a Muslim woman, you are much freer. Now I am happy, and since I go to Islamic study group, I have learnt a lot. From studying true Islam and comparing notes with Muslims from other countries like Egypt and Syria, I have also realized that so much of what our parents impose on us in the name of Islam is not Islam but is their cultural practice. So I can discuss with them and sometimes I succeed in changing their minds.”

Later in the book, there’s a story of a Muslim girl whose father had arranged a marriage for her. She researched Islamic law, and was able to convince her father that her marriage would be religiously invalid if she were forced into it. Her simple refusal would not have been enough. Making a religious argument allowed her father to save face, and allowed her to get what she needed.

An ideal situation to begin with? No. But given the circumstances, her religion provided her an escape from what could have been a very bad situation — or at least a situation that she wanted to escape from.

We can certainly take issue with the underlying religious ideals at play here — that marriage is the height of a woman’s success, that sexual activity before marriage is bad, that women moreso than men must shoulder the burden of avoiding that activity. I do take issue with all of these things, regardless of which religious ideology they stem from. But it’s also valuable to recognize that, given the pervasiveness of these ideals (and their comparative strength in Muslim communities as opposed to more secular ones), the veil can offer a path to greater freedom. It may be a patriarchal symbol, but it serves a more liberating practical purpose for some women in some contexts.

It also helps some women to establish a more credible identity within the dominant culture. According to a 17-year-old Canadian citizen from Pakistan:

“We came from Pakistan and since we had many friends and relatives, we lived near them. Financially we were not so badly off and that made it easier. Although we did not intermingle much with non-Indian-Canadians, I very much felt at home and part of the wider society. This, however, changed as I got older and clearly my life was different than many girls in my class. I did not talk about boyfriends and did not go out. I did not participate in extracurricular activities. Gradually, I began feeling isolated. Then my cousin and I decided together to wear the veil and made a pact to ignore people’s comments, that no matter how much hardship we suffered at school, we would keep our veils on.

One weekend we announced this to our surprised parents. They were perplexed that their fifteen- and sixteen-year-olds had decided to take such a drastic measure without consulting them. At that time, there were not very many Pakistani women in Montreal who wore the modern veil. Most women wear our traditional clothes. Our parents consented, though they did not think we would stick with it. But we did. At first it was difficult. At school people joked and asked stupid questions, but after three months they took us more seriously and there was even a little bit of respect. People no longer invited us to their parties, knowing we could not go, and we did not have to apologize or explain. The teachers did not try to convince our parents that swimming is compulsory. We even got a little more respect when we talked about Islam in our classes, while before our teacher dismissed what we said it if didn’t agree with her casual perceptions. Now I have no problem wearing the veil, even though I do like to let my hair loose, but the trade-off is worth it.”

Many women also point out that the veil frees them from the male gaze, and from being a sex object. As one of the women interviewed in the book says, “There is no in-between, at least when you are young. Our society forces you to be either a person or a woman and object of desire. So for now and as long as I have the courage, I would rather be a person.”

It’s unfortunate that women in Western society feel they have to choose between their bodies and their brains. Obviously, the big-picture solution is to try and shift our cultural mentality which tells women that their physical appearance is the most valuable thing they have to offer. We have to create a society in which women will feel safe in public spaces, regardless of what they’re wearing. But until we successfully do that, women will cope. Some women will adapt to beauty culture. Others will purposefully and forcefully reject it, whether through refusing to shave their legs or not wearing make-up or donning a veil. From the conclusion of this piece:

“Historically, clothing has carried significant communicative power. Clothing frequently indicates age, gender, social class, ethnicity and religion. It can mark (or blur) social boundaries, forge or destroy alliance. Clothing is used by the powerful to reinforce power, while the underclasses, through an appropriation and manipulation of clothing, can shift the balance of power and challenge the status quo. In short, clothing has been and continues to be a potent vehicle of symbolic communication.

Framing the veiling debate in a context broader than the conventional, dichotomous one of religion/Islam/patriarchy versus individual freedom of choice provides a more comprehensive understanding of this practice. It cautions us, for instance, against transposing an Iranian or Saudi Arabian notion of the compulsory veil onto the Egyption or European or Canadian context, where we must understand veiling as a voluntary act with a multiplicity of motives and meanings. This broadening of the discussion will help us view a veiled woman not as a passive subject, but as an active agent involved in redefining her position and options in the contemporary context of her life.

The veil in Canada plays a crucial role of mediation and adaptation for many young Muslim women, something the literature has totally overlooked. Often the veil has allowed muslim women to participate in public life without compromising values and hard-won cultural and religious rights. In a North American context, adoption of the veil symbolizes women’s religiosity and commitment to Islamic mores, while allowing them to resist partiarchal values and cultural practices imposed elsewhere in the name of Islam. In a similar fashion, veiled women can argue for their Islamic right to choose their spouse and resist arranged marriages without compromising family and community support. And veiling, along with a self-taught knowledge of Islamic practices, is used by some women to counter the control of male and senior family members and as a way of exercising considerable power themselves by preaching proper religious observance.

Wearing the veil has defused parents’ resistance to their daughters’ leaving home for university, entering the labour market and engaging in other activities in the public domain that are considered unconventional for Muslim women.”

That is a net good.

This shouldn’t be interpreted as a pro-covering apology. As I wrote before, I do believe that the veil is a highly problematic patriarchal symbol. However, I also believe that it’s an item of clothing that has multiple meanings, and that can shift in its symbolism. For a lot of women and girls, it means freedom. We can take issue with the things that are limiting their freedom in the first place, and we can recognize that they’re being put in an unjust place by having to choose the veil in order to maximize their freedom. But going after the veil itself by outlawing it, or suggesting that employers should be able to refuse veiled women work, doesn’t help anyone. It creates a major barrier for many women. And it only hurts women and girls. It doesn’t go after the patriarchal ideas that support the veil. It doesn’t challenge the fathers and the brothers who believe that their daughters and sisters should live more limited lives. It doesn’t give women a wider variety of choices.

I will almost certainly write more on this later. All quotes are from the article “More Than Clothing: Veiling as an Adaptive Strategy” by Homa Hoodfar, in “The Muslim Veil in North Ameirca: Issues and Debates.” edited by Sajida Sultana Alvi, Homa Hoodfar and Sheila McDonough.


60 thoughts on Thoughts on the headscarf from those who know better than I do

  1. Hey, Jill. This is a very interesting and thoughtful post. I really appreciate your ability to give this subject nuanced and insightful treatment when it usually just provokes strident yeas or nays. By the way, I think you mentioned in a previous post that you’re religious. Do you mind if I ask which one? Does that play into your interest in Islam and the veil?

  2. This is always such a huge can of worms.

    I have a number of friends who wear the headscarf. I’ve talked to a number of them, some vehement feminists themselves, about the meanings and interpretations involved. And it’s incredibly complicated IMO because there are so many layers of identity involved — and especially in this country, I have personally come to believe that the headscarf comes to have a great deal of meaning for my friends as signifiers of their cultural identity as apart from the American mainstream, a point of cultural/ethnic/religious pride that I can completely understand as an intentional distinction. I think that’s an important piece of the conversation when we’re talking about the headscarf or veil coming into Western culture, or being interpreted by Western culture at all.

    Certainly the requirement of modesty is always problematic; on the other hand, I honestly don’t see how it’s completely different and more oppressive, necessarily, than a great many trappings of being an “appropriate woman” in Western culture, and I honestly think it’s among the things that we here would view very differently if we Typical Westerners could get outside enough of our own cultural norms to view Western women (even a great many very feminist Western women) on a more objective level. Which is, of course, impossible.

  3. This was an excellent post, with the voices of those who come from that culture and speak for themselves from their view. And you didn’t limit to one, but took a sampling of different views within that arena as, like everything else in the human experience, it is broad and wide and not one voice or experience can speak for all.

    Very enlightening and interesting. What comes to my mind when reading that is how we, coming from the American experience, almost consistently make the assumption that we know what’s best for all, but we fail to understand that our view is limited, very limited and we have no authority to act or speak for others, they can do for themselves much better.

  4. I really don’t understand all the fascination with veils or headscarves. Maybe I just have read too much about fashion history to think that there’s anything particularly unique about them; every society finds something about women to cover up in the name of modesty.

    By the way, what I find deeply amusing about modesty as a concept is that it’s supposed to be erotic. Every modesty requirement in every culture will eventually get defended/described as erotic, and there’s a lot of truth to it. I saw bras being whipped out as an analogue to hajibs, and that’s about right. Bras are promoted as a necessary requirement to veil/shield/control the breasts and their scary eroticism, but they also shove ’em up front and center.

  5. In the book “Murder in Amsterdam”, which touches on the problems conservative Muslims have in liberal Dutch society, the author suggested that demonizing the headscarf as a symbol of Islamic oppression demonizes Muslim WOMEN, not men, and turns veiled women into symbols of threatening alienness. Which is ironic, because the vast majority of radical Islamist terrorists are men (with several notable exceptions) and it is largely Muslim women who suffer from the religious/cultural misogyny it entails.

    Anyway, thank you sooooo much for having such a cool-headed take on the headscarf fracas. I would add my thoughts, but you’ve pretty much said it all 🙂

  6. Interesting reading, leading to a consideration of how one’s motives in taking an action can affect the reality of that action’s effects. I’m a white middle-class male, about 53. My viewpoint is more simplistic than above; if a woman wears an article of clothing because they’re forced to, that’s a violation of human rights. If she wears it because she wants to, then it’s no one’s business why she does it.

    It’s interesting to see what women who are not forced to wear a veil have made out of wearing it for their own reasons. It is quite unfortunate that some of them have had to do this in order to get rights/privileges from their own families that women in our own culture are able to get without such an action. But it’s quite clever of them and quite beneficial for them to have done this.

  7. I was speaking in the earlier thread against the right to wear the niqab in certain situations. Given the title, I think I should note that – at least for me – a headscarf and a face-covering veil are very different things with very different effects on the audience.

  8. Interesting post, Jill.

    Reading both this and Ilyka’s original post, it seemed to me that everyone was conflating the two incidences in the UK that led to the debate kicking off (and it goes without saying that the way the tabloids have handled this has been pretty vile). The first was Jack Straw asking niqab-wearing female constituents who came to see him to remove their veils, which seemed fine to me as long as he took “no” as an answer (although how great it made these poor women who were politically engaged enough actually to arrange a meeting with their MP feel and whether they’d want to arrange a meeting with him again is another question…). The second was a teaching assistant who was interviewed for the job not wearing a niqab, but wants to wear the niqab if there is a male teacher in the classroom or when she is in the corridor. Supposedly some of the children said they found it hard to understand her when she was veiled – although it’s hard to know whether that was judgement after the fact. In the second case, the issue really should be whether she was an effective teaching assistant while wearing a niqab (and whether it was the niqab or her inability to project past the niqab). The government certainly should have kept its nose out – this should have been between the TA and her employer, and if it went further, it should have been a case for an employment tribunal.

    Polly Toynbee’s article in the Guardian was the best I read on this.

    I do find this a very difficult issue, and I thought a lot of the commenters on Ilyka’s post were perhaps a bit quick to judge – women may wear the veil now in countries like the UK and Canada as a personal choice, but there are plenty of women who have no choice at all in the matter. Shouldn’t we call women on personal choices that prop up the system for women whose choices are limited?

    With all due respect to your quotations, Jill, it seems to me that most of the women were very openly wearing the veil in order to give themselves more freedom because their situation was pretty repressive for one reason or another, or because they were struggling to define themselves (particularly the two Pakistani cousins – that seemed like normal teen angst over who they were being solved by identifying as religious). I agree that forcing veiled women out of jobs doesn’t help them – but we should be very clear that it’s a “lesser of two evils” thing and that no woman should feel that she has to wear a veil in order to participate equally in society.

    It actually reminded me a lot of the “fun feminist” debate, as you’ll see if you get as far as my comments on Toynbee’s article. The personal urge to wear the veil comes from a bad place, a culturally-conditioned place that says women are lesser, that they are responsible for men’s sexual urges, that they are guilty until proven innocent. The “modesty” requirement of most religions disproportionately affects women. However, it’s so deeply embedded in a lot of women’s psyches that they would feel incredibly uncomfortable not wearing it. Rather like the fact that shaving my legs is a pain and really a complete waste of time, but I would feel bizarrely ugly if I didn’t do it – that isn’t a decision that should be forced on me by someone else. However, I want people to keep on making the arguments why I should think more about it and maybe shouldn’t do it at all – not just accept that it’s my cultural choice, as though that means it shouldn’t be questioned. We aren’t making these choices in a vacuum.

    I think we basically agree on this, but this debate has made me slightly uncomfortable.

  9. veils, wigs on orthodox jewish women, modesty clothing for christians, thongs, high heels, push-up bras — to me they’re all just a manifestation of the same issue, the fetishization of women’s sexuality. I think we prefer to get all worked up over the result of a cultural attitude rather than addressing the attitude itself because that let’s us have frothy discussions without having to do the difficult work of figuring out how to affect the underlying causes.

  10. a compartive might be judaism’s tznuis (modesty) dress rules, as in islam, for both male and female. as judaism is a significantly more rule oriented system of religious belief the degree to which the rules are observed indicates a particular manifestation of religious practice (levels of orthodoxy).
    being able to provide a religious parent with a religious argument is going to be a boon, as religiously based theory is the basis from which the parent sees the world. you don’t convince a creationist of evoloution by pulling darwin or wallce off the self; it makes more sense to frame your argument within the gensis account of existance, which lends itself beautiful to such extropalation. ditto modesty rules.

  11. Its considered rude here in ireland, but no one expects them to change. *shrug* anyone wearing it is considered a foreigner.

    Probally mostly because most muslems living here for years were moderates who didnt wear anything or just the headscarf (which was wore by irish older women at the time anyway). So they stand out and arent very common. I have never seen anyone wearing it in real life, just on tv.

    Most Irish would say, its a very odd and disrespectful to yourself thing. The muslems I know say its cultural and old-fashioned and look down on it. *shrug*

    But its not my life, if anything changes it, it will be muslem women. They are being allowed to study their holy texts now and its becomeing more common to be well educated. If they decide to change thats, cool. If they dont, they stand out, but its not really a problem. But people will consider them not intragrating in europe.

  12. Thoughts on the headscarf from those who know better than I do

    Why is your post entitled “thoughts on the headscarf” when it actually appears to be entirely about (as far as I can tell) “thoughts on the face-veil” (or face-mask, or burqa)?

    The two are, in Western culture at least, entirely separate issues.

    Objections to women wearing a headscarf (and in general wearing clothing that covers their arms, legs, etc) are in general racist objections to traditional “modest Muslim” dress.

    Objections to women covering their faces entirely would come from any culture in which people are accustomed to seeing each other’s faces as they talk.

    It really is not useful to conflate the two sets of objections. People who object to the first will object to the second, but there certainly exist people who feel deeply uncomfortable faced with a faceless person, masked and/or veiled, female or male, who would not object to hijab.

  13. Many women also point out that the veil frees them from the male gaze, and from being a sex object.

    No it doesn’t. It just puts them in the “unfuckable” category, much the way hairy legs or wrinkles do for white women.

  14. Why is your post entitled “thoughts on the headscarf” when it actually appears to be entirely about (as far as I can tell) “thoughts on the face-veil” (or face-mask, or burqa)?

    No, it’s not entirely about the face-veil or burqa. Many of the women I quoted were using the term “veil” as shorthand for hijab, or modest clothing which includes a headscarf. I was using it the same way. “Veil” does not necessarily translate to “full-face covering.” I used the term “headscarf” in the title because the issues I’m talking about encompass a wide range of clothing choices; what those clothing choices have in common is that they all include some sort of hair-covering. So it’s the most inclusive term.

    Objections to women wearing a headscarf (and in general wearing clothing that covers their arms, legs, etc) are in general racist objections to traditional “modest Muslim” dress.

    Objections to women covering their faces entirely would come from any culture in which people are accustomed to seeing each other’s faces as they talk.

    It really is not useful to conflate the two sets of objections. People who object to the first will object to the second, but there certainly exist people who feel deeply uncomfortable faced with a faceless person, masked and/or veiled, female or male, who would not object to hijab.

    That wasn’t really what my post was about at all. And I’m not conflating the two, because I’m not talking all that much about objections. I’m trying to represent varying perspectives from individual women about why they choose the veil, and I’m trying to get across the point that taking steps to bar certain types of clothing only hurts women and girls. I’m pointing out that there aren’t simply two kinds of traditional Muslim dress, that the various styles of modest religious clothing are on a continuum, and that the headscarf and the veil and the chador and the burqa and the niqab all have certain similarities in their purpose and histories. They all serve as hijab in dfferent cultures, countries and contexts. (To be clear, in Islam “hijab” refers generally to the ideal of modesty, and literally means “curtain,” although in some Islamic nations “hijab” specifically references modest clothing and a headscarf). Women and girls have varying reasons for choosing them.

    That’s my focus. Not your objections.

  15. hijab: a headscarf leaving the face uncovered, permitting others to identify and interact freely with the wearer.

    niqab: a face veil, making the wearer unidentifiable to others and depriving others of the ability to see facial expressions.

    burqa: a full body covering with a woven grille over the eyes, hindering the wearer’s ability to walk, carry objects, see and communicate.

    Any discussion that doesn’t differentiate between these three is unhelpful. The hijab is entirely inoffensive. The niqab is a mask, which is highly offensive in western culture. A woman who chooses to wear a niqab in the West is being extremely rude. The burka is an intentionally crippling device, and should be looked on with the horror that we feel for foot-binding.

  16. Any discussion that doesn’t differentiate between these three is unhelpful. The hijab is entirely inoffensive. The niqab is a mask, which is highly offensive in western culture. A woman who chooses to wear a niqab in the West is being extremely rude. The burka is an intentionally crippling device, and should be looked on with the horror that we feel for foot-binding.

    Thank you, JR, for enlightening all of us to what is and is not universally offensive in Western culture.

  17. I don’t know about anyone else, but I wear a bra because it can be physically painful if I don’t.

    And Jesurgislac hits it right on the head. Either in the US or the US, most people do not object to headscarves and/or longsleeves and long pants. Such dress isn’t exclusive to certain sects of Islam. So. Calif. has a vibrant Asian Indian community and one can observe traditionally dressed Indian women all the time.

    The picture in my daughter’s hs yearbook has pics of the Muslim Student Association finding both the boys and girls in varying degrees of traditional dress, head scarves or caps for both. But no full face covering veils.

  18. you know, there are plenty of Hasidic Jews in this neck of the woods. the women don’t cover their faces, but they all are certainly marked as “other.” and the business about men not being allowed to touch women (I remember a distant relative once refusing to shake hands with my grandmother, upon meeting; apparently age does not factor into the possibility that gasp horror the woman might be menstruating and is thus unclean o unclean)–that, you know, i find disrespectful. but as far as the public square goes: none of my business.

    as for face veils while driving: perhaps that’d be practical, but 1) that isn’t what we were talking about 2) i hadn’t particularly noticed this as a pressing problem, had anyone? i mean, i’m not aware that women who wear the face veil drive in this country in the first place. certainly women driving’s prohibited in places even where the full eye-screen may not be de rigeur (isn’t it still illegal in Saudi Arabia? our dear friend Saudi arabia?)

  19. 22. some of us also consider the constant barrage of talktalk about stiletto heels sort of tiresome as well. in this country: wear ’em or don’t. y punto. them’s my sentiments. someone pressuring you to wear ’em: let’s talk about that, the pressure, the pressurer. not the bloody heels themselves anymore, much less the poor deludanoids who -think- they’re wearing them voluntarily; so TIRED of it.

  20. I used the term “headscarf” in the title because the issues I’m talking about encompass a wide range of clothing choices; what those clothing choices have in common is that they all include some sort of hair-covering. So it’s the most inclusive term.

    But the women living in Islamic countries who object to being forced to cover their faces are not identical with the women living in Islamic countries who object to being forced to cover their hair.

    Nor is it the same issue for people who don’t like encountering faceless figures, male or female, and people who object to other people’s ordinary clothing – headscarf, t-shirt, shoes, or hat.

  21. 26. no, i’m sorry. it doesn’t matter if what you’re objecting to is what you’re -encountering.- your encounter: a couple of seconds of vague existential or aesthetic discomfort brought on by gazing upon a stranger. their “discomfort:” how they spend their entire public lives. not equivalent, sorry.

  22. >Shouldn’t we call women on personal choices that prop up the system for women whose choices are limited?

    Personally? No. Because that would be -everyone.- And every choice; not just the ones you/we don’t happen to care for. Call out yourself, and leave your sister the hell alone. Maybe if you’re really brave and full of integrity, she’ll follow the example you set. Nagging (for that is what this sort of “calling out” of strangers amounts to) accomplishes -nothing- helpful that i’ve seen. Nothing.

  23. as per “talking to” people: well, you know, this also reminds me of the complaints people make about how so and so doesn’t even speak English, and how the hell are you supposed to communicate?! there oughta be a law. no. it’s your inconvenience; it’s still nothing compared to -their- inconvenience. and throwing down some stupid law that’s primarily about the superficial expression of their “assimilation” whilst doing nothing to ensure they’re genuinely comfortable here helps nothing, nothing. Deal with it; consider it Another Fucking Opportunity For Growth.

    maybe i’m biased because i live in an outer borough of NYC and and encounter people who very much “aren’t like me” on a regular basis. i do know i always have a vague sense of cultural shock when i go to my folks’ (for example) in the suburbs, and am reminded of just how homogenous it is, how -convenient- everything is.

  24. But the women living in Islamic countries who object to being forced to cover their faces are not identical with the women living in Islamic countries who object to being forced to cover their hair.

    …did anyone assert this?

    The post was doing two things. First, it was giving a very little bit of history about how colonialism and orientalist scholarship actually perpetuated the idea of the veil as a relious requirement. Second, it was quoting from Muslim women living in Canada, who are free to choose or not choose the hijab/headscarf/veil/etc. I quoted from them to demonstrate that there isn’t a single story about the veil. We all agree that it’s bad to require women to cover themselves with chadors, burquas, niqabs, etc. I specifically focused on women in Western culture because that’s what we were talking about.

    Nor is it the same issue for people who don’t like encountering faceless figures, male or female, and people who object to other people’s ordinary clothing – headscarf, t-shirt, shoes, or hat.

    I’m getting a little irritated at the serious entitlement complexes here. I don’t like encountering people in I Love Jesus t-shirts. They make me uncomfortable. I don’t like encountering young white males wearing suits and backpacks, because they’re usually Mormons out to try and convert people. I don’t like encountering women in “modesty swimsuits” at the beach, because I make a stupid assumption that it somehow represents a fundamentalist worldview. But you know, I get the fuck over it. Because my “discomfort” does not trump their right to dress as they feel appropriate, especially when they believe that form of dress is religiously sanctioned.

    We can argue to death whether or not the full covering is required in the Qu’ran. I think it isn’t, based on the seven mentions of hijab and their contexts. However, many people do think that full coverings are required. Many of those people are imams and religious authorities. I also don’t think that the Bible condemns abortion, based on my reading of it. But guess what? A lot of people and religious leaders do think that, and we can argue it to death, but that’s their right. My opinion doesn’t hold much water next to an imam, and an established history of intertwining cultural tradition with religion.

  25. Belledame, I think we’re agreeing. It’s much better to attack the constructs that force people to choose things than the people themselves, who have to live in these socieities. My thoughts are more complicated, but it boils down to “it’s ok to do something because you want to, but acknowledge that this is why you’re doing it and that there are forces making it not a free choice, don’t just say ‘I’m a feminist, I choose it, therefore it is feminist'”. (My heels — not stilettos, I am nowhere near coordinated enough to wear those, my leg shaving, I have long lists of things I do which are problematic.)

    Anyways, that’s really off the topic.

    Attacking women who make some choices isn’t going to make them choose something else — it entrenches them in their choices. (Well, people in general, but here: women.)

  26. …did anyone assert this?

    You appeared to be doing so when you asserted that niquab, hiquab, and burqa were all associated together because all involved covering a woman’s hair. Yet, I’ve never encountered anyone in a Western country except an aggressive Islamophobe who has objected to Muslim women wearing a headscarf – and those people never seem to object to non-Muslims wearing hats or other forms of head-covering that completely obscure a person’s hair. I have encountered many people who express discomfort at encountering someone (male or female, Muslim or non-Muslim) wearing something that completely covers their face: and these people tend to object to meeting faceless figures, regardless of whether the face-covering is a ski-mask, a Hallowe’en mask, a veil, or a burqa.

    But you know, I get the fuck over it. Because my “discomfort” does not trump their right to dress as they feel appropriate, especially when they believe that form of dress is religiously sanctioned.

    No indeed: outside working hours, anyone has a right to dress an way they damn please. A man has (for example) a perfect right to wear a t-shirt to the supermarket that says “I like my women like I like my coffee: ground and in the freezer”.

    But their right to dress as they feel appropriate, does not trump my right to say I feel discomfort at what they’re wearing. Nor does their right to dress as they feel appropriate require me to put my discomfort into inverted commas, as if my discomfort wasn’t real.

  27. yeah, it is off topic, but it’s been a pretty consistent one, and i think this particular thread is related. i’ll just say quickly that i don’t know of anyone who says in so many words,

    >‘I’m a feminist, I choose it, therefore it is feminist’”.

    the only times i’ve ever seen people coming down emphatically on the side of “my right to choose” (stilettos, blowjobs, sex work, what have you) is when they feel under attack by people who go out of their way to say it, and perhaps even they, is/are -not- feminist. or, you know, somehow, -less- feminist. iow, i think the whole “empowerful” business (i.e. the notion that people are supposedly arguing against, that wearing anything -in itself- is a feminist gesture) is pretty much a strawfeminism, and it’s been sort of driving me up the wall.

    i mean, at best the suggestion is that so and so who wears the stilettos or whatever hasn’t really considered these matters; not to the extent that so and so who’s urging the “acknowedgement” or “examination” or whatnot has done. Sometimes people just get tired of “well, i know it’s part of my conditioning, BUT garsh i just feel so much better shaved;” it feels like a ritual apology or something. and besides, a lot of people have been making arguments that actually, there are other factors here; how one feels -physically- is a factor and can perhaps be considered separately from cultural influence blahblah; and, too, there are -many- cultural pressures, patriarchal and otherwise (and many “patriarchies”); it isn’t necessarily us v. the Monolith, for some of us.

    so yeah, there’s a bit of a disconnect, sometimes, i think, just speaking generally wrt these discussions.

  28. All right; scare quotes disavowed. The discomfort is real, yes. And scare quotes notwithstanding, neither i nor anyone else was saying that you or anyone else can’t -say,- I feel uncomfortable.

    Okay; you feel uncomfortable.

    Now what?

  29. Well, I have seen those arguments start much less one-sidedly, but yes, it always ends up in a feministier-than-thou argument. Which gets silly, and is incredibly couterproductive. It’s rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, arguing about exactly how unfeminist things are or are not.

    Actually, I was thinking quite specifically about changing one’s last name, because that’s the conversation I’ve had most often offline.

  30. Interesting post and it’s nice to get all those different views.

    It’s also kind of irritating how important non-Muslims seem to think the dress issue is to talk about.

    Incidentally, Muslim men are almost as bad when you hear the Muslim televangelist types exhorting women to wear Hijab almost as often as you hear them exorting all Muslims (often, however, using excusively male gender verbs) to pray. And the “progressive” Muslims are equally irritating with countless really insulting articles about how “oppressed” women who choose to dress a certain way are, and how this or that certain way must be banned for our own good. It’s deeply irritating.

    I think it is exactly right to say that the headscarf is no more a “symbol” of anything than a t-shirt.

    And I have similar reactions to the Niqab (I have worn the headscarf since 1993) as Jill does to the ostentatious piety of the “I love Jesus” t-shirt, but like her I don’t voice my opinions because really the person has the right to dress how she wants to and it is none of my bloody business.

    Yes, I know feminists like to question modes of dress and their rationales, not to mention other beauty practices such as leg-shaving. But shaming other women constantly over this, that or the other method of dressing is not the same thing as occasional introspection. Also, I think the whole issue of how Muslim women dress is best approached by Muslim feminists instead of Western, non-Muslim ones who bring their own cultural baggage (particularly years of listening to very anti-Muslim mass media messages) to the issue.

    So anyhow thanks for this post. I hope you won’t take it the wrong way when I add that I hope it marks the end of the seemingly endless fascination with Muslim women’s clothing choices.

  31. this also reminds me of the complaints people make about how so and so doesn’t even speak English,

    I have no problem with new immigrants who haven’t learned the language yet.

    I have a problem with immigrants who believe they are under no obligation to learn English.

    One doesn’t emigrate to a majority culture and then refuse to do even the most basic of efforts to integrate.

  32. In the US, anyway, no one is saying that a woman can’t wear a hijab or a niqab. What one might say (I’m saying it), is that an employer should be (and likely is) prohibited by law from refusing to hire a woman because she wears a hijab; but an employer would have every right to refuse to hire a woman who chooses to wear a niqab. Just because something is religiously or culturally mandated doesn’t mean it’s not also rude and offensive.

    Europe is different. They have an entirely different historical and cultural relationship between civil society and religion, which is just as sophisticated as ours, and Americans should be careful before telling Europeans what does and does not violate individual rights.

  33. >Shouldn’t we call women on personal choices that prop up the system for women whose choices are limited?

    Personally? No. Because that would be -everyone.-

    belldame – I put it badly in my original post. You’re right. I basically agree with you and Wolfa – I just find it irritating when any women goes on about how “liberating” and “empowering” it is to buy into all the old patriarchal crap. Like, “Oh, allowing my husband to make all the decisions for me is so empowering and liberating!”

  34. Belledame: The discomfort is real, yes. And scare quotes notwithstanding, neither i nor anyone else was saying that you or anyone else can’t -say,- I feel uncomfortable.

    Actually, that is the impression I’ve been getting from this thread: that we shouldn’t say or comment on what other people wear no matter how uncomfortable it makes us feel.

    I hate this time of year when kids come up to me in Hallowe’en masks and demand candy or cash. I hate – any time of year – encountering a woman whose face is veiled or masked. I don’t hate the kids or the women: but people covering their faces makes me uncomfortable. Anyone has a right to wear what they damn please on the street, in their own homes: but the idea that it’s wrong for us to express our discomfort, publicly, about masks, veils, or t-shirts saying GOD HATES FAGS – not to the person wearing it is just… well, wrong.

    Women don’t just “decide” they’re going to veil their faces because naturally and instinctively a woman feels more comfortable with her face masked than a woman just “decides” to wear six-inch heels because that’s natural/instinctive. Both are marks of cultural decisions about what women should look like. A woman might decide she’s going to conform to the cultural stereotype because she’ll benefit thereby, or she might honestly believe that her religion requires her to cover herself, or she might want to wear a burqa because she wants to stand out from the crowd as a Muslim and this is the easiest way of doing that (which puts it about on the level of wearing a t-shirt that says JESUS CHRIST IS MY PERSONAL SAVIOR).

    The teacher who was fired because she didn’t want to unveil claimed that she believed it was in the Qu’ran (which it isn’t) that women have to cover their faces at all times. But she was teaching at a secular school,. and secular schools make secular rules: when working as a teacher, she was required to have her face uncovered.

    She wouldn’t have been allowed to wear a t-shirt saying JESUS CHRIST IS MY PERSONAL SAVIOR or GOD HATES FAGS, either.

  35. Jesurgilac, although I agree with you that the face veil is completely not mandated by the Quran I still don’t like the idea of non-Muslims making statements (like Jack Straw) about what Muslim women should or shouldn’t wear.

    And for walking up to people dressed differently and telling them “you make me uncomfortable” I just don’t see a time when that would be appropriate behavior and not just inexcusably rude. Now if it came up in conversation with someone who was a longtime friend or something, that’d be different.

    I kind of get what you mean about T-shirts with slogans – they are sort of starting a conversation. But niqabs aren’t – because it is impossible to know with certainty what their side of the conversation actually is. You have to make a bunch of assumptions and then you talk to those assumptions.

    As for the teacher that thing was so misreported and spun that it is impossible to say what she was really doing. I have heard several different versions. It may have been a real issue or it may have been unjustifiable. I know my son’s 3rd grade teacher wore niqab and she kept all the windows covered with black construction paper and that irritated me because I thought she was depriving the kids from sunshine. On the plus side she kept her face unveiled in front of the kids so no one had issues with what she was saying/doing. When the niqab actually is an issue (like with ID photos or if it is negatively affecting s.o. else e.g. the school issue) then it should be dealt with on a case by case basis.

    In the end I don’t think Muslim women’s dress choices are appropriate for in-print agonizing by ignorant Islamophobes. Which is what 90% of that stuff is.

    This post was a definite exception, at least Muslim women’s voices were quoted. But frankly there just is so much to say about the blasted subject. How about assuming Muslim women are just as capable of thinking as you are and leave ti at that.

    And yes I will still and always be bothered by the Niqab. And it still remains not my business to walk up and get in the Niqabi’s face and tell her that I am in fact uncomfortable.

  36. A woman who chooses to wear a niqab in the West is being extremely rude.

    Over here in feminist-informed reality, a man (or woman) who thinks he has a right to see a part of a woman’s body she doesn’t care to show him is being inexcusably rude.

    No, I know, it’s totally different from, say, telling somebody to show you their tits. Because those guys just want to see her chest, while you really really want to see her face. In fact, you need it. Your need for access, your need to gaze, is way more important than her want for privacy. The way to show women that sex-specific ‘modesty’ is stupid and sexist – which of course it is – is totally to tell women that we owe the public the sight of us. That to control what others see of us is rude. That’s just great.

  37. I still don’t like the idea of non-Muslims making statements (like Jack Straw) about what Muslim women should or shouldn’t wear.

    I don’t think Jack Straw ever said that. Once again, there is misreporting and spin involved. Jack Straw said that he asks his female constituents to remove the face-veil when they come to see him. I don’t think he was telling them what they should or shouldn’t wear. He prefers to communicate with people when their faces are uncovered, so do I, for that matter. I don’t think that there is anything necessarily draconian or consescending or presumptuous about that.

    The way to show women that sex-specific ‘modesty’ is stupid and sexist – which of course it is – is totally to tell women that we owe the public the sight of us.

    I see your point, but I would also argue that the face is culturally important when it comes to communication in general. I think that in this context it can be argued that the face-veil is rude. I don’t think it matters, because, once again, it’s a wholly subjective perception of it, but if you think about how visual our culture is, I think it becomes more obvious.

    It’s not that the woman with the covered face owes me something. Damn, for all I know, I have a lot to learn from someone like that. But I value seeing a person’s facial expression when I’m talking to them. There is a certain level of trust there, and a certain power-dynamic. I feel powerless when I speak to someone whose face is covered. And that’s not entirely pleasant.

    You could argue, therefore, that the face-veil can be extremely empowering, but my question would be, at what cost? It can be a privacy thing, but it can also be a huge barrier.

  38. Anna in Portland: I still don’t like the idea of non-Muslims making statements (like Jack Straw) about what Muslim women should or shouldn’t wear.

    Do you think that non-Christians shouldn’t make statements about what Christian women should and shouldn’t wear? For example, this post by Riverbend about what a Christian friend is wearing – do you object to that?

    I don’t like the idea of women thinking they ought to wear high heels. I don’t wear high heels myself, I only ever wear flats, I consider heels to be uncomfortable, physically damaging if you wear them consistently, and basically just another way of inconveniencing women via what we wear.

    I don’t like the idea of women thinking they ought to wear niqab. I don’t do it myself. I consider niqab to be uncomfortable, physically damaging if you wear it consistently, and basically just another way of inconveniencing women via what we wear.

    And FWIW, yes, I’ve (briefly and infrequently) tried out what it’s like to wear heels and I’ve (briefly, once) tried out what it’s like to wear niqab.

    What Jack Straw and Polly Toynbee (non-Muslims both, yes) said about niqab.

  39. I have a problem with immigrants who believe they are under no obligation to learn English.

    One doesn’t emigrate to a majority culture and then refuse to do even the most basic of efforts to integrate.

    And why not? It’s more hassle to them than it is to you for them not to integrate. What does it matter to you?

  40. It does not seem as if you are carefully trying to engage my actual position here, J. Which is kind of surprising to me because I remember you as being a very thoughtful commenter.

    Riverbend’s post does not “complain” about the christian wearing the scarf, just mentions the anecdote to show that there is lethal pressure going on in Iraq. That’s hardly the case in Britain.

    All I am saying is that I don’t think anyone has a right to get up in a Niqabi’s face and tell her what she is wearing is wrong. Without first knowing her, having an idea of how she is thinking about it, whatever. Not to mention the related idea that always focusing on what women are wearing is such a superficial thing to do in the first place.

    However, it does not seem that Niqab is a subject that people can discuss in the abstract. I sort of understand that. As I have said numerous times, including directly to you, I myself have a gut reaction against it.

    However, mentioning that fact abstractly on this forum is a hell of a lot different than telling a Niqabi to take it the hell off (essentially what J. Straw did in a public forum, and regularly apparently does with his constituents) without her having first given me permission to tell her what I think.

  41. …did anyone assert this?

    You appeared to be doing so when you asserted that niquab, hiquab, and burqa were all associated together because all involved covering a woman’s hair.

    I asserted that they have certain similarities: Principly, their histories of cultural/religious conflation and the underlying sentiments behind all of them. That is not nearly the same as saying that they’re “identical,” which is the word you used earlier when mischaracterizing my arguments.

  42. >Actually, that is the impression I’ve been getting from this thread: that we shouldn’t say or comment on what other people wear no matter how uncomfortable it makes us feel.>

    Well, that’s never been my belief or approach. What it is is this: you can say what you like; you’ll probably get a response. You may not like the response. You can say so. Someone else will respond. And so it goes.

    I do see a difference between

    “I feel uncomfortable when I see blahblah”

    and

    “I don’t like the idea of anyone feeling/doing/blah blah.”

    One is owning your stuff; the other is…beginning to blur, at least.

  43. So anyhow thanks for this post. I hope you won’t take it the wrong way when I add that I hope it marks the end of the seemingly endless fascination with Muslim women’s clothing choices.

    I hear ya. I also think that the focus on Muslim women’s clothing has been over-blown. This post was largely a response to the fact that I’m reading about this in class (which is taught by a non-Western Muslim woman), and it seemed relevant to the debate that Britain is having right now.

    But you’re right. There are far more important things to be talking about than the headscarf.

  44. Anna: All I am saying is that I don’t think anyone has a right to get up in a Niqabi’s face and tell her what she is wearing is wrong

    Of course not. That would be extremely rude. Nor did I advocate that. Nothing could justify it if done to a complete stranger: to an employee or to a close friend one might say something (to an employee, obviously, only if covering their face completely meant they couldn’t do their job).

    All I am saying is that I don’t think anyone has a right to say that because I don’t belong to a religion, I don’t have any right to comment on what some people belonging to that religion say that women ought to wear. And you did, explicitly, say that – effectively condemning Riverbend for her negative comments about her Christian friend wearing the hiqab.

    Jill: I asserted that they have certain similarities: Principly, their histories of cultural/religious conflation and the underlying sentiments behind all of them. That is not nearly the same as saying that they’re “identical”

    The underlying sentiment behind the hiqab is that women should dress modestly. The underlying sentiment behind the burqa is that women should disappear from public view altogether. Both hiqab and burqa cover a woman’s hair: but the idea that the two can be conflated because of that is rather like arguing that because a t-shirt covers a woman’s breasts and so does a nun’s habit, they have “certain similarities”. So they do. But the differences is are fairly broad as well.

    What I said – which you have mischaracterised – was that women in Islamic countries who object to being forced to wear the hiqab are not identical with the women in Islamic countries who object to being forced to wear niqab. That is, the two groups of women – those who object to being forced to wear hiqab and those who object to being forced to wear niqab – certainly overlap, but they’re not the same, identical group.

  45. What I said – which you have mischaracterised – was that women in Islamic countries who object to being forced to wear the hiqab are not identical with the women in Islamic countries who object to being forced to wear niqab. That is, the two groups of women – those who object to being forced to wear hiqab and those who object to being forced to wear niqab – certainly overlap, but they’re not the same, identical group.

    …still not seeing your point, as no one said that these groups are identical.

  46. OK I am getting confused. Jesurgislac you say:

    All I am saying is that I don’t think anyone has a right to say that because I don’t belong to a religion, I don’t have any right to comment on what some people belonging to that religion say that women ought to wear. And you did, explicitly, say that – effectively condemning Riverbend for her negative comments about her Christian friend wearing the hiqab.

    No, I did not say you could not comment. I said you could not comment *to the person*. You agree that would be rude. I think we agree here.

  47. still not seeing your point, as no one said that these groups are identical.

    Yet you conflate the practice of wearing hiqab with the practice of wearing a burqa as if you thought they were. If you know they’re not, why confuse the two?

  48. I’m not sure if Happy Feminist would agree with me here or not, but having traveled to a Muslim country and stayed there for quite a while, I began to think of it like this:

    Most of us wouldn’t think that there was anything “offensive” or “oppressive” about making sure that your arms and legs are at least somewhat covered when walking down a street in a religiously conservative country. While in Amman, Jordan, I generally wore jeans, below-the-knee skirts, and 3/4 sleeve shirts. It was a sign of respect. Men still cat-called and stared, but men feel entitled to do that anyway. When I wore an Orthodox-style hijab, I saw no difference in their behaviour. I also saw tourists who dressed in shorts, and, you know, some people thought it was weird.

    Interestingly enough, a lot of Ammanites think that Saudi women who are in town for the summer in their black niqaabs are equally weird.

    Meanwhile, in Dubai, there was an entire editorial about how foreign women should not walk around in shorts, at least during Ramadan, with a bold headline that read : “Show some respect!”

    Are the residents of Dubai and Amman being unjustly demanding? Depends on whose side of the fence you’re on. Aside from a few real bigots (“If you were my sister, I’d kill you” – yeah, that happened to me once), all they are doing is pointing out what they are and are not comfortable with. As long as they’re not being abusive, things ought to stay OK, right?

    I don’t think that anyone in the West who points out something similar is automatically unjust. And Jack Straw, Anna, does not tell anyone to “take it the hell off.” It’s an honest request, and I do suspect that he is more than capable of taking no for an answer. But he still has the right to ask. Just like those journalists in Dubai have a similar right.

    I think ideally we should all be comfortable with one another. I won’t balk at a black niqaab, and someone else won’t balk at the sight of my arms.

    But that’s not the way it works now. Meanwhile, we still have to live together. Sometimes, it’s really good to air this stuff out.

  49. sophonisba- I assume you’re writing in good faith, otherwise why bother?

    You say- “Over here in feminist-informed reality, a man (or woman) who thinks he has a right to see a part of a woman’s body she doesn’t care to show him is being inexcusably rude.”

    No. In our society, a man OR a woman who goes about in public with the face covered is being rude- except in special circumstances (e.g., below zero temperatures). And that person is being rude to everyone – man, woman, and child.

    No one who covers his or her face can expect to be hired to work behind a counter, or as a teacher of children, or in any position that requires interaction with others. Why? Because covering the face is intolerably anti-social, in a way different from the hijab, or the head-covering of Jewish and Sikh men, or the long dresses of Mennonite women. A person who covers his or face is refusing to communicate. It doesn’t matter that the refusal has a religious or cultural basis. While others obviously have no right to see the covered face, they also have no obligation to pretend that the refusal is not taking place.

  50. I went to college at GMU in Fairfax, attending many of my classes with Muslim women who went about their academic journey while fully covered, including the face. I can’t say that it ever occurred to me that they were being rude. And it seems likewise a little silly to say that the veil is a serious obstacle to communication. My classmates and I had no problems working together.

    I don’t particularly care for their beliefs. I’m an atheist, I think the whole concept of religious garb is silly. But it’s not like I felt personally attacked by it. As far as I know, it was their decision. I had no right to ask them to dress any other way, even if it had made me uncomfortable.

    I wonder if the commenters here who think facial covering is so hostile have actually spent much time with Muslim Americans.

  51. I can understand how trying to communicate with someone whose face is covered can be difficult or troubling, but – and maybe I haven’t seen anyone making this point because it’s obvious – what’s so wrong with saying to the veiled person, ‘hey, i’m not used to talking with people whose faces I can’t see, so can we work something out to improve communication?’
    there needs to be compromise on both sides; say, asking for their reactions rather than relying on cues, if they prefer to stay covered. to me, that seems reasonable – i’m putting forth extra conversational effort to put them at ease by asking when I’d normally observe, and they’d be putting forth effort putting up with what might seem like obvious answers to help make up for my lack of skill/familiarity with reading covered faces.

    this is going to seem bad, and i’ve never had occasion to spend much time talking with someone with a covered face, but i picture it as being a bit like talking with someone over the phone. getting the full flavor of the conversation requires different tactics – namely, not relying on facial expressions.

    seems to me that it’s fair to be uncomfortable or concerned about the nuances, but what i don’t get is why people can’t just be honest about this when the situation arises and ask for help. tell me, is teamwork really that hard?

    then again, politeness and tact are two very different things, and i’m not so good at the latter, so maybe i’m way off base here.

  52. In our society, a man OR a woman who goes about in public with the face covered is being rude- except in special circumstances (e.g., below zero temperatures).

    JR brought up the issue that i’ve been thinking about throughout this discussion. i truly wonder if anyone who finds it rude or difficult or discomforting to interact with a person who has most of their face covered up has spent much time in extremely cold climates.

    there is a significant geographical portion of north america where this does not constitute “special circumstances”, but rather a normal way of life for many months out of the year.

    maybe because i grew up in northeastern montana and have also spent a fair amount of recreational time at ski slopes around the continent, it doesn’t bother me in the slightest to interact with a person who has most of their face covered.

    now granted, people don’t dress like this (parka w/ hood or hat, scarf over mouth, sunglasses or goggles) in the summertime or in warm climates because it would be really uncomfortable in the heat, but if anyone did, i imagine people would think they were just weird, not rude.

    that’s why i don’t get the rudeness thing. non-muslim north americans do cover their faces in public, just not in the same manner that muslim women do. it’s not everywhere in north america, but again. why is it rude?

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