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Bras vs. Headcoverings

zuzu

Okay, so in comments to one of the Hijab Monday posts folks got onto the subject of what kind of article of clothing worn by Western women might be equivalent to the hijab in terms of cultural/patriarchal pressure to wear it, wearing it won’t protect you from harassment but might keep you from getting branded a slut, not wearing it might be the proper feminist choice, it’s restrictive and/or uncomfortable, and something that women would probably not choose to wear had they their druthers. And the answer seemed to be: the bra.

Allow me to quote from an article I found at Bitch, Ph.D.’s place to demonstrate why, for me, that kind of talk is crazy talk:

A pair of D-cup breasts weighs between 15 and 23 pounds—the equivalent of carrying around two small turkeys. The larger the breasts, the more they move and the greater the discomfort. In one study, 56 percent of women suffered from breast pain when jogging. . . .

Computer systems then track the breasts’ motions in three dimensions by following the moving lights. “We can actually work out exactly where they’re going, how they’re moving, and how this movement is affected by bras,” Steele says. Breasts move in a sinusoidal pattern, Steele has found, and they move a lot. Small breasts can move more than three inches vertically during a jog, and large breasts sometimes leave their bras entirely. “We have videos of women who, particularly if the cup is too low, spill all over the top,” Steele says.

The larger the breasts and the more they move, the more momentum they generate. To change or stop that momentum requires a large force, usually applied through bra straps. When straps are thin, the pressure exerted through them can be so great as to leave furrows in the shoulders of large-breasted women. As the straps dig into the brachial plexus, the nerve group that runs down the arm, they may cause numbness in the little finger. In some cases, breasts can slap against the chest with enough force to break the clavicle.

I like my clavicle as is, thanks.

107 thoughts on Bras vs. Headcoverings

  1. Wow, it’s almost like I never said this:

    Yes, it can be physically uncomfortable not to wear one; no, the physical discomfort has nothing to do with the requirement to wear one or face harassment, insult, and catcalling.

    This part is your addition:

    something that women would probably not choose to wear had they their druthers

    Insofar as having my druthers would mean having a flat chest, that’s true. But if I ever got a reduction such that pain and bouncing wasn’t an issue, I still wouldn’t go out without a bra. You know why? Because I don’t like being shouted at in the street.

    I mean, are you honestly suggesting that people catcall and insult and grab at bra-free breasts because they’re concerned about our pain???

  3. I mean, are you honestly suggesting that people catcall and insult and grab at bra-free breasts because they’re concerned about our pain???

    I should say, clearly you’re not suggesting this. But I never said women don’t have good reasons for wearing bras. But it doesn’t matter why we wear them. What matters is that we don’t have the free choice not to, which includes the many women for whom wearing a bra is more painful than not wearing one. What I am saying is that if I wanted to go out in public on a nice day, when I wasn’t planning to jog or jump up and down or do anything that would cause me pain, I still wouldn’t, because I would be afraid to.

  4. I don’t think that Zuzu was saying that. I’m sure she recognizes that there are women who can go braless, but choose not to because of the negative social reactions they would receive. Her point, I think, is that the bra isn’t comparable to the headscarf/veil because the headscarf/veil is never necessary to support a part of the body in order to prevent/relieve physical pain.

    I don’t need to wear a bra day to day (and often enough, I don’t), but if I’m running or if I’m on my period and my breasts are swollen and sensitive, you can bet I wear one for comfort. I would imagine that women with larger breasts than me certainly feel that they need their bras in their daily lives. As Zuzu points out, there can be serious physical issues that arise from not wearing a bra. I’m not sure that the headscarf is exactly analogous in this way, as without it a woman’s own body won’t be of harm to her.

  5. 38H weighing in here, seriously contemplating reduction because of the shoulder and upper back pain, and I would shoot anyone who tried to take my bras away.

  6. You seem to forget that you weren’t the only one talking about bras there.

    I’m also saying that I don’t, as a large-chested woman, have the option of going braless without discomfort unless I’m planning on sitting stock-still all day. So while in theory it’s nice to think of a feminist utopia where women can choose to ditch their bras and not get harrassed, I can’t live there and have any sort of freedom of movement. I get very uncomfortable when lingerie is discussed as feminist or not-feminist as a choice, without regard to its supportive qualities. We can call it a tool of the patriarchy all the live long day, but I’m going to be less free without one than I am with one, and that has nothing to do with the culture.

    That, also, makes it much different than the hijab. There are plenty of places where women must wear it. But that’s not because of any quality of the women themselves; it’s purely an external condition. It doesn’t do anything for or to the woman’s body.

  7. No, I was not the only one talking about it, but I was the one who brought it up, so I feel a certain responsibility. And the point of comparison was not in the goodness or badness of either garment for a woman’s body, or in their usefulness. The point of comparison was in the treatment women receive when they don’t wear them. I’m still lost as to how the fact that your breasts and mine hurt without a bra has anything to do with that. Anything at all.

    So while in theory it’s nice to think of a feminist utopia where women can choose to ditch their bras and not get harrassed, I can’t live there and have any sort of freedom of movement.

    …because other women choosing to ditch their bras means you will be forbidden to wear yours? What?

    Raincitygirl, my tits are about the same size as yours. Luckily for both us, no one at all has proposed taking our bras away.

  8. I didn’t see where any of us talking about bras said they were never needed for comfort. I said that I never gain any comfort from a bra (even when I’m running, even when I’m on my period, etc.), and that I still often wear one, because I’m afraid of being judged to be immodest if I don’t wear one. But I also said that I’m particularly small-breasted, and that other women do need bras for comfort. My feminist utopia would involve women getting to choose whatever degree of bra-wearing is actually most physically comfortable to them, and maybe some A and B cup women going braless more often than they already do. It certainly wouldn’t involve expecting women to ditch their bras as a feminist duty.

  9. A pair of D-cup breasts weighs between 15 and 23 pounds

    FYI, breasts are largely fatty tissue. They’re probably lighter than water, but let’s assume for a moment they’re the same weight as water.

    Water weighs about 8.3 pounds per gallon.

    Someone missed a decimal.

  10. And the point of comparison was not in the goodness or badness of either garment for a woman’s body, or in their usefulness. The point of comparison was in the treatment women receive when they don’t wear them. I’m still lost as to how the fact that your breasts and mine hurt without a bra has anything to do with that. Anything at all.

    Because the analogy doesn’t hold together when you consider what the function of the bra is. Also, when you consider that there are a whole lot of women with small chests who can go without bras without anyone being the wiser, whereas you’re either wearing a headscarf or you’re not; whether anyone notices is not a function of your body shape.

    …because other women choosing to ditch their bras means you will be forbidden to wear yours?

    No, but it means that lack of harassment is not the only obstacle to setting the thing aside. I’d love to go braless. I just can’t, regardless of men’s reactions to me.

  11. Someone missed a decimal.

    Fill a water balloon or two and see if they’re only a pound and a half altogether.

  12. I was discussing this issue with some women elsewhere yesterday and compared it not with wearing or not wearing a bra, but with wearing a shirt or going topless, which seemed to me to be a somewhat better comparison – in that it involves a legal/social/cultural requirement whereby women are supposed to keep a particular portion of their bodies completely covered in public in order to be considered ‘decent’ while the same restriction is not placed on men.

    I might not like the fact that men get a pass on walking around with uncovered torsos just because they’re men and not women, but I would certainly be angry as hell if someone wanted to pass a law saying I had to go topless in public or in some public situations in order to have a public life at all. (And given the world that we live in, and the fact that it would probably be men passing that law, I certainly would be suspicious of their motives.) Just because some law got passed that (supposedly) redresses a sexist inequity in clothing requirements doesn’t mean I could then go wonderfully and legally topless in public without being subjected to all kinds of sexist treatment and harassment from yahoos who didn’t get the freakin’ memo (as sophonisba points out above re the bra/no bra ‘choice’).

    As was noted in the earlier post on the subject, it’s a matter of not putting these women in a lose-lose situation where there is no way to have a public life that does not put them at odds with the requirements of their religion, whether or not they freely chose to live according to those requirements. What any woman would choose to wear or not wear in public – bra, shirt, head scarf, burka – if she really had her druthers… well, in a society that is still patriarchal and sexist pretty much through and through, her decision-making is going to factor in the likely effect of and reaction to her choices and whether or not she’s going to get more grief from having her full, unhindered druthers than having them is worth to her. These choices aren’t made in a vacuum, not by any of us.

  13. I was trying to figure out why sophonisba’s comment disturbed me, even with the caveat that bras aren’t just for societal pressures–when it hit me: Dammit, I can’t show that I’m free of those societal pressures by going braless without physical discomfort! I can’t show my distain for the patriarchy in that way. Frankly, it feels like small-breasted privilege to me*.

    *Yes, every breast size has its own privilege set. Well, except maybe for the debilitatingly large.

  15. I like the shirt analogy better than the bra analogy, and I think it fits much better. On a very hot day, a shirt can be a nuisance, and I’ve been known to look enviously at men who can just take their shirts off. Were it not considered an affront to public decency, it’s quite possible that I’d go around wearing just a bra on the top half of my body on days when the weather was really hot. However, I’m quite certain that I would be made to feel self-conscious, harassed, or possibly arrested if I did any such thing.

    Oddly enough, in most public places (not offices, obviously), I could likely go around wearing a bikini top in hot weather and not get harassed for it. But an actual bra, despite covering the same acreage as a bikini (or possibly more), would be considered unacceptable. Plus, your average bikini top does not have nearly as much support as your average bra, and thus wearing a bikini under a t-shirt on a very hot day is not a practical option for most women, however much they might like to whip their shirts off and cool down just like men.

  16. zuzu, I didn’t say D cups weren’t big or heavy. I’m merely pointing out that D cups are not 1 to 1.5 gallons per breast in volume, as would be required to acheive a total weight of 15-23 pounds.

    Next time you’re in the supermarket, stack up 15-23 pounds of meat. Muscle is heavier than breast tissue, so the meat will be smaller–still, you’ll see what I mean. It’s a lot of meat; it’s a LOT bigger than two D cup breasts.

    Or, if you still don’t believe me, hold two empty one-gallon containers to your chest. That’s about what 16 pounds of breasts would look like.

    twoluvcats, as a %age of volume (which is what I was talking about), I think the majority of most breasts–especially larger ones–is fatty tissue. I have seen numbers ranging from under 50% to over 50% and I confess I may be off by a few % but I think I’m right.

    But I have to ask: WTF is up with the snark? i’m just trying to point out a typo so that your readers don’t adopt incorrect info and go telling everyone that their breasts weigh more than their arms. It was an innocent mistake. Missing a decimal is not a big deal; I do it all the time; it’s an common typo but one worth fixing. It probably wasn’t even YOU, if you copied it from somewhere else. Why the snark responses? Why not “oh, oops, it’s fixed now; thanks”?

  17. Might I propose another analogy? Long pants or a skirt, as opposed to shorts.

    I personally would not be seen in public in shorts. I frankly can’t stand them; they always ride up my thighs. But if I took it into my head to wear shorts to work on Friday – dress code the rest of the week prevents anyone wearing them, including men – I could expect to get a lot more dirty looks than men, because I don’t shave my legs. However, if I did shave, I’d still get looks, because for some reason bare legs on a woman are considered ‘sexier’ than bare legs on a man.

    There are a number of religious sects in the USA that discourage female members from showing their legs, so as not to inflame the lusts of men. Most of them in fact ask their female members to wear long skirts so as not to even show the shape of their legs. But even in ‘mainstream’ America, a woman’s legs are considered a sexual symbol while a man’s are not.

    Still, if anyone tried to mandate that women show thier knees in public, what do you want to bet there’d be an outcry? And rightfully so.

    The above comments about shirt vs. going topless, I think, are similar in principle, but don’t necessarily apply in the same way – there aren’t large segements of the country where a woman refusing to go topless would be regarded oddly. However, I have gotten funny looks for wearing a long skirt instead of shorts, in midsummer. The otherization isn’t as widespread or obvious, but it is in some cases present.

  18. But I have to ask: WTF is up with the snark? i’m just trying to point out a typo so that your readers don’t adopt incorrect info and go telling everyone that their breasts weigh more than their arms.

    Gosh, I don’t know why I’d be snarky about a man trying to tell me how much my breasts weigh when I have my subjective experience to tell me.

  19. The above comments about shirt vs. going topless, I think, are similar in principle, but don’t necessarily apply in the same way – there aren’t large segements of the country where a woman refusing to go topless would be regarded oddly.

    Good point. I like this analogy too.

  20. In some cases, breasts can slap against the chest with enough force to break the clavicle.

    My Lord.

  21. In some cases, breasts can slap against the chest with enough force to break the clavicle.

    You have just scared the crap out of me. 🙂 Hahah.

  22. Raincitygirl: just saw where you said you were considering reduction. I always have to put in my two cents when I see that… I had a reduction 8 years ago at age 18 and it was one of the best things I ever did. I never exercised before because of the pain and now I’m more active. It’s much easier to find clothes that fit. And it’s really, really nice to be free of some of the nasty comments I got on my large chest. I went down three cup sizes and loved it. Seriously, let me know if you really are thinking of it and I can give you my email addy if you want to talk in more detail. Sorry for the veering off-topic, everyone. =)

  23. In some cases, breasts can slap against the chest with enough force to break the clavicle

    Well, it’s not like you need your collarbone or anything.

  24. # zuzu Says:
    October 17th, 2006 at 3:24 pm
    Gosh, I don’t know why I’d be snarky about a man trying to tell me how much my breasts weigh when I have my subjective experience to tell me.

    SWhy the fuck are you so pissed off merely because you made a typo? This is objective: I know the interaction between weight and volume. I know how big D cups are. I dno’t need to have D cup breasts to see it’s wrong, any more than you need to be a man to point out the average penis size is not 40-60 inches, but is actually 4-6 inches or something like that.

    I don’t know, or care, how much your breasts weigh. I do know, however, that they don‘t weigh 15-23 pounds if they’re D cups. Maybe you’re pissed because you don’t happen to have recognized the number is incorrect?

    here’s some photographic evidence. I googled d cup breast volume and this was near the top of the list and got this (WARNING, NSFW: breast augmentation pictures from some random doctor’s site).

    You can see what happens when they add implants to a single breast. Scroll down to the third before/after pictures (large A to large D).

    You will see the enormous increase in size from using 525cc implants per breast.

    525cc of water is a bit over 17 ounces, or about one and two-thirds cups. 1000cc of water weighs 2.2 pounds; 525cc of water weighs 1.15 pounds. That means they added ~3.3 pounds total to both breasts.

    Take a look at the volume increase. Those 3.3 pounds doubled the breasts’ size. The breasts before the injection couldn’t have weighed more than 5 pounds total (a generous overestimation, I think). They would have to have implanted THREE TIMES the volume of implants to get the breasts up to the minimum weight listed as “average D cup” above.

  25. However, I have gotten funny looks for wearing a long skirt instead of shorts, in midsummer. – R

    I agree with you that shorts/pants is probably the best analogy. Speaking as a male pig, though, whether it’s conditioned or inborn, women’s legs are sexy (shaved or not) … I would love to think my legs are sexy, and people have told me they are, but I just don’t see my, or any other man’s legs as attracting the same sort of attention as women’s legs do … FWIW.

    Anyway, though, not wearing shorts in the summer gives you funny looks whether you are a man or a woman. In fact, because we men don’t have the “I don’t wanna be immodest” excuse about wearing shorts, I would reckon we get funnier looks when we come out in long pants during shorts weather. I personally don’t wear shorts because I burn very easily and slathering sun-lotion on my legs would be a considerable expense if I did it with any regularity (my legs aren’t fat or even all that muscular, but they aren’t chicken-legs and hence have quite a bit of surface area) — and I do get funny looks and even comments in casual conversation (“aren’t you hot not wearing shorts on a day like this?”).

  26. Ivy, please, please feel free to email me. I would love to quiz you re: reduction. I can be reached at the info in my profile (click my name), or at raincitygirl at gmail dot com.

    My apologies for the continued thread derailment, Zuzu, but I need to pump this woman for information!

  27. I find it odd that women are afraid to go out without a bra for reason of how they’ll be treated in public. Maybe things are that much different here in Canada, but I regularly go out without a bra, and I’m a lactating mom. These puppies aren’t particularly small. And there’s a woman I know who never wears a bra, and her breasts are very large. If I had to guess, I’d estimate an H cup. To the best of my knowledge, no one has said anything to her. She’s a school librarian.

    Are things just that different here?

  28. This is one of the reasons I visit boards like these. They talk about white guilt but i don’t have it. However one day it just plain hit me that women have to go through soooo much more then men. It has made such an impression that in cases where I know for a fact the woman is manipulating for sympathy I will give her a pass because there are many times it will be for real.

    All I can say is you desere all the credit for all you go through and the fact you do it so well is a credit. Feel free to call menslackers for not having to handle these issues, because while it is reality, reality is never fair.

    Talking about social justice or marxism gets no where with me but remind me that nature has made your job twice as hard as mine and you will get much respect. And if you get snarky on THOSE issues I will give you a lot of leeway, Hell , I’ll even back up your earned right to snark.

  29. I am frankly baffled by this bra thing. I know lots of women who don’t wear bras and who bounce and who don’t give a rat’s ass if they are called slutty. Maybe I am just showing my age, but I grew up in an era when padded bras basically didn’t exist (bra technology has improved imeasurably in the 30 years that I have been wearing one. And I wear one because I am big and I like to be able to bound up a flight of stairs without holding my chest, because yes, it does hurt without one) and I have never heard of women worrying about their nipples showing until the last couple of days. My nipples show all the time, as do many other women I know, and its like, who the hell cares? I have breasts, and on them are nipples which do show when I am cold or whatever. And if someone finds it shocking, well, then that is their problem.

    I guess I am showing my age, but I remember when it was a feminist act to make choices. If a bra is uncomfortable, then you can choose not to wear it. You really can, and you can also choose not to be oppressed by the reactions of others. As self-described feminists, how can you allow yourself to care about the opinions of those who would call you a slut just because you don’t wear a bra? Have we as women really lost so much ground to the morality police in this country? Which I find really hard to get my head around, because if the sight of some nipple beneath a t-shirt can brand one with a scarlet letter, then what of the very large porportion of young American women who would assuredly fall into the “slut” catagory what with all the bare midrift and ass-crack showing fashions.

    For me, feminism means not allowing my self regard to be defined by patriarchal values. Or anyone elses values — even other feminists for that matter. Slut is a category which is entirely meaningless to me. But perhaps that is because I came of age in the 70s when screwing around (if that is what one wanted to do) could be and often was an act of personal and political liberation. It was not being slutty, it was saying this is my body, and my sexuality and I will do as I please with it.

    I would also like to point out that I find most fashion oppressive–but that does not mean that I also believe that I should be ashamed of enjoying my body or even enjoying the sight of others. I have lived for extended periods of my life in the middle east where I have been expected to cover up. It is a relief in many instances to be able to go outside and not worry about fashion, but by the same token I love it when I can come back to the US and go outside in a skimpy sleeveless t-shirt with my nipples showing through the fabric of my comfortable bra and thin shirt on a really really hot day. It is a freedom I would not surrender lightly, and I do not care who thinks I am a slut for saying so.

  30. Just to help clarify things to Sailorman, the 15-23 lbs estimate came from Bitch, Phd’s site. And while I think that’s a little high for some Ds – especially the “augmented” D, I think it’s probably accurate for some. Keep in mind that the actual cup size for a 34D is not a 36D is not a 38D, etc. As a prego large chested woman, I’m somewhere around a 36F (that’d be 4 Ds, thanks) I’m gonna estimate I’m coming close to 20 lbs combined – still haven’t figured out how to get them on a scale for an accurate measure! And I’ve felt some augemented Ds – there’s not much weight there at all. Looking at a complex organ versus a sac of silicone is not an accurate estimate.
    On a slightly separate note – anyone know a very good bra shop in Chicago that might carry my size?

  32. Ok, i guess I have to weigh in on this one. I am a size 32H and there is no way i would go anywhere without wearing a bra. it would fucking hurt. And my boobs would be hanging down to my stomach instead of in their proper location. And running is out of the question, even with a bra, i haven’t ran since i was 14.

    My boobs weigh approx 8 lbs each according to my doctor’s. estimate. (Advice to weigh them, put a bathroom scale on the counter, and rest your boobs on them. move around a bit and find a mid. point for an approx weight.) so that’s 16 lbs total. no, that is not 1.6 lbs. (i wish!!) this crap about water is just dumb, and especially comparing it to breast implants! hello, we are talking about REAL breasts, not fake ones here, which i have no DOUBT are much lighter. my god. and you claim to know what size a D is, but since NOBODY really knows since the inches also change the size and everyone makes a D different, that is clearly false. guys all the time guess i have a D (the most common first guess i get) and they are wrong, there is no D in the world i could fit in.

    i have many small chested friends who don’t wear bras all the time, and some small chested friends who always wear bras because they think they’re boobs “look funny” otherwise. but the ones who don’t wear bras don’t experience any additional harrassment from guys whether they are wearing one or not. in fact, I experience more harrassment than all of my small chested friends, no matter what i’m wearing. (and it always includes a bra.)

    also, the statement that wearing a veil results in less harrassment in countries where it’s common to wear it is NOT TRUE. just ask someone who lives or has lived in those places.

    as to nipples, my nipples show through my bra often. i don’t even see how a bra would stop this, unless it was a padded bra. wtf i would wear that is beyond me, i’m “padded” enough.

    as to breast reductions, i would LOVE one, but without insurance it’s VERY expensive. =( god i wish we had universal health insurance.

  33. Wyomeg, I’m not in Chicago (hell, I’m not even in the US), but google “Jeunique” and see if you can find a shop that carries them in your local area. A friend of mine in Washington State couldn’t find their bras, and emailed them, and they emailed her back with the nearest place that stocked them. Their bras are fabulous. Really bloody expensive, but miracles of engineering such that the weight of the boobs is distributed much better than in the average bra. Doesn’t get rid of my back pain altogether, but it improves matters.Which is good, because even when you can FIND a bra in an unusual size, half the time the manufacturers haven’t accounted for the fact that the larger the boobs, the more support they need, and thus the bras are large enough, but very uncomfortable.

    Luna, I’m in Canada too, and the only women I know who go bra-less are those with small boobs. I’m sure every so often someone like the H-cup school librarian comes along, but speaking as an H-cup myself, the idea of having big boobs and going without a bra sounds horrendously uncomfortable. Presumably not an issue for some women, but I don’t know any of them.

  35. I am a 38D and I can go for short periods of time without a bra, as long as I’m not doing anything stressful. If I’m home with the kids, a lot of time I’ll forget to put one on. If I am doing anything remotely active, however, I have to have one. I have never heard of it being a huge deal to go without one though. I did have one house that I worked at require one while at work, but it was because there was a client who lived there who had a history of pulling up women’s shirts and he would typically be more excited to encounter a bare chest than one with a bra. I’ve never been harrassed for not wearing one though. (I used to be smaller before I gained weight during pregnancy and would sometimes go out without a bra).

  36. sunrunner–
    i think there’s more to this issue than whether a woman going bra-less would be labeled as “slutty.” how a woman’s dress is judged is largely dependent on the community she is in and its standards of propriety, or what have you. and in that regard, she absolutely has a choice about whether or not she wants to conform to those standards.

    the more pressing issue that i’ve picked up on in this thread — and heard over and over again from female friends — has to do with safety. for a lot of women, going bra-less, like wearing a mini-skirt or a cleavage-bearing low-cut blouse, makes them increasingly more vulnerable to harrassment.

    is a woman wearing a mini-skirt sending out an open invitation for sexual advances? no.

    are women still told that they were “asking” for sexual attention because of the way that they were dressed, and therefore blamed for “provoking” men into harrassing and/or assaulting them? yes.

    sure, it’s still a choice. but it reminds me of the definition of consent. consent is agreement without coercion — be it verbal, emotional or physical — which is to say, consent is more than just saying “yes” or not saying “no”. i consider fear of emotional and/or physical harm to be form of coercion, and that’s what a lot of women risk facing if they dress in a way that is “sexually provocative.” so while women can make whatever choice they want, it’s not an entirely free choice to make when one side increases the possibility of harrassment and danger.

  37. I mentioned this in the hijab thread, but I worked in lingerie and a female customer who was a 38D or DD asked for a padded pushup bra, because the stiff fabric and heavy underwire was the only thing that would give her enough support to avoid the physical discomfort that zuzu and other commentors have mentioned. I’m a 34A-B and I run without a sports bra, but even I think that jiggling is extremely uncomfortable.

    As for the whole thing about bralessness=slutty, I’m beginning to think that bra=slutty, too. I mean, I see so many ads for no-show seamless bras that “disappear” under tight and thin tops (as if anyone would actually *think* that a woman’s breasts look like smooth microfiber!). I have had people make scandalized comments if my bra shows under my clothes and I was once horribly embarrassed when I had a wardrobe malfunction at school and inadvertently flashed the top of my bra to a bunch of guys (long story). And personally, despite the ads that make it seem shameful for a woman’s bra to show under her clothes, I like matching bra straps to complement clothing. And in a weird maybe an “empowerful” (lol) way, that’s a means for me to act out against the no-show paradigm – that if I opt out of the no-show styles, I have no need to hide and be ashamed of the fact that I wear underwear.
    So I don’t think wearing a bra has to be patriarchal. If wearing a bra makes you physically comfortable, as it does for some women, then there’s nothing wrong with that. If you don’t want to wear a bra for whatever reason, then that’s fine, too. To each her own.

  38. SWhy the fuck are you so pissed off merely because you made a typo?

    I didn’t make a typo. Go read the friggin’ post. It’s a blockquote. You want to quibble with it, go quibble with the Anne Casselbaum and Discover Magazine. But you don’t even know that breasts are made up of more than fat.

  39. I gotta say that in my experience, what I am or am not wearing has very little to do with whether or not I am harrassed by men. If women really believe that their clothing determines whether or not they are or are not sexually harassed by men then we are on a very slippery slope to saying that a woman who is raped and is provacatively dressed is raped because of her clothing. Which is complete and utter busllshit.

    I have worn hijab in the middle east in places where all the women routinely wear a niqab, and I have never been so sexually harassed as I was in that culture. As are all the carefully covered up Muslim women, I might add, it is a constant source of frustration for them–as they not only hate it, they are powerless to fight back. I find the same thing in this culture, only to somewhat of a lesser extent. If I am in a misogynistic neigborhood (and there is such a thing), then I am not surprised to get hit on in a winter coat. btw–I am 48 years old. I don’t look anything like I am a young woman and it still goes on. As I live in NYC, there are plenty of younger more glamorous women to hit on, which is proof in itself that sexual harassment has very little to do with having a certain kind of body or wearing certain kinds of clothes.

  40. Wow. You know, I have to side with Sailorman on this one. As the owner of a pair of 36DD, is seems pretty ridiculous to me that Ds weigh between 15 and 23 pounds a pair. 1.5 to 2.3 pounds per pair doesn’t sound right either, obviously. Has anyone been able to find another source for breast weight? A medical source, maybe?

    Anyway, like I said, I’m working a pair of DDs, and I will absolutely under no cicumstances go braless outside of my house. Not because of what others will think, but because lying around the living room doing nothing is okay without a bra, but walking down the stairs from my top-floor apartment hurts. Hell, even walking quickly with a crappy bra is uncomfortable. FORGET about running in a bra! I have to hold those suckers to my chest if I even try.

  41. The thing, of course, is that cup size is a proportional thing, and it doesn’t help to just say “D cup” without reference to band size. Because a 32 D probably has less total mass than a 36B. Casey’s 16-pound 32H’s probably have equivalent mass to a 36 D.

    Also, breast tissue encompasses tissue that wraps around the side to the armpit.

  42. sunrunner–

    you’re right that clothing does not determine harrassment, women get harrassed in jeans and tshirts, women get harrassed in mini-skirts and heels. and for the sake of honesty, i should say that i wear bras maybe two times a year, if that, and that concerns for safety have little to no effect on my wardrobe choices. but i also live in a place where i’m subject to very little in the way of harrassment, and besides basic common sense, am generally not worried about my safety. however, i think the fact that i don’t have to worry about those things — harrassment and safety — makes me a minority. or at the very least, i’m a minority among the women that i know. and while i don’t think any of my friends think they’re immune to danger if they dress “modestly”, many feel more vulnerable without bras/in short skirts/whatever.

  43. Just wanted to point out that headscarves are functional – they do the same things that hats do – and are used by both women and men in the Middle East (think of Arafat), where keeping the sun off one’s head is definately a comfort issue. So, I don’t think that the comparison with bras is that far off.

  44. I would also like to ask Sailorman to ask himself how breasts that weigh no more than 2 pounds a pair dig trenches in shoulders and warp spines such that insurance companies cover breast reductions where they don’t cover other plastic-surgery procedures.

  45. Just wanted to point out that headscarves are functional – they do the same things that hats do – and are used by both women and men in the Middle East (think of Arafat), where keeping the sun off one’s head is definately a comfort issue. So, I don’t think that the comparison with bras is that far off.

    Well, sure, except that men don’t generally need bras.

  46. Casey and others looking for larger cup/smaller band sizes: they don’t cover all the extremes, but if you’re 32 or above and J or below, Dillard’s house brand, Cabernet, is reasonably-priced (my two favorite styles are $24 and $32) and has a pretty good assortment of sizes (they’re one of two brands in the world that carry 32DDD for under 30 bucks regular price).

    I swear I don’t work for them, I was just so fuckin’ thrilled to be able to afford something in my size from a regular store that I’ve been telling everyone in the hope that enough people will buy them and keep the brand alive.

  47. zuzu, it is quite amazing to me that a man would question a woman about the weight of her own breasts…

    I certainly would be disinclined to listen to a woman tell me about issues related to penis/scrotum/testicle comfort issues…

  48. And yet, he doesn’t seem to GET that, even after I’ve told him that.

    But men are experts on tits. They’re like balloons! Airy and light and no trouble to cart around for the viewing pleasure of men!

    Let me just fill y’all in on my bra size: 40 G. Which means that the circumference of my ribcage is 40 inches (or actually, since I’ve started working out again, a bit less), and the circumference of my bust is 9 inches more (A= 1 inch greater, and on). So if you do a volume calculation based just on that, and not on the fact that the breast tissue takes up a ways between my navel and my clavicle, you can see that you’re dealing with a lot of volume there.

    You know, if you even knew what the hell breast tissue was composed of in the first place.

  49. philosophizer – wow, under $30!! I have never found any brands that make large cup sizes and small bands. i have mine custom made. i went to dillard’s website. i’ve never heard of them before, and i see why. none in WA state at all. anyway, they have an online shopping thing (which when it comes to bras, and even blouses, i have really never had much luck) but they have so many pages of bras and the only way i can see what sizes is to click into each one. so far i haven’t found anything near my size. wanna give me more details? for $32 (i pay $60-100) i’d be willing to give buying it online a try. also, my cup size really varies based on who is giving it to me. i’m between H and J usually.

    sorry to totally derail the thread. but buying bras is something i’ve been having trouble doing ever since i’ve had boobs.

  50. pigeon – on that note, I’d like to add that whether one wears a bra or not does not protect from street harassment. I’m very flatchested and I’ve worn a bra since age 10 or 11 (for the modesty issue in the beginning), but I get street harrassed a lot. Probably one of the worst instances was when a man actually crossed the street to bother me. And that day, I wore a pink bra under a light-colored top, so I kind of wonder whether he thought visible underwear=provocation.

  51. But men are experts on tits.

    yep. they know more about them than women. cuz you know, you can learn EVERYTHING about them by looking at plenty of fake boobs.

    i especially liked this:

    I know how big D cups are.

    (really? how big?)

    which sailorman said right after saying this:

    Or, if you still don’t believe me, hold two empty one-gallon containers to your chest. That’s about what 16 pounds of breasts would look like.

    which i’m assuming he’s saying D cups couldn’t be that big?? clearly if he thinks “D cup” is a qualifying factor as to the actual size of the breast, he really doesn’t know shit. and that you could even tell what size boobs are by just LOOKING at them. please. PROFESSIONALS argue over my breast size.

    (as for if my 16lbs of breasts resemble empty 1-gallon containers, well, let’s just say this comparison is really dumb, for what should think are obvious reasons. i can certainly tell you they feel just as heavy, if not more so, than 2 full gallon containers.)

    They’re like balloons! Airy and light and no trouble to cart around for the viewing pleasure of men!

    i joke all the time that i wish i could inject my boobs with helium.

  52. I don’t have much to contribute on the bra front.

    But why would we assume that there’s a valid Western analogy for the hijab?

  53. I have never heard of women worrying about their nipples showing until the last couple of days. My nipples show all the time, as do many other women I know, and its like, who the hell cares?

    Well, the reason I worry about the nipples showing is twofold: A) I was told from puberty that I needed a bra, at least for certain shirts, and, as a 34B, I certainly didn’t feel a need for support. So I made a guess as to what the bra might be supposed to do for me, and I guessed that its function was to make it harder for people to tell when my nipples were erect. B) I’ve had the unpleasant experience of being told that yes, I did want sex, even though I said otherwise, because my nipples (which were erect from cold, not arousal) said so. So I figured I wanted my nipples doing their talking only to the person, me, who knows when they’re saying “I’m horny” and when they’re saying “I’m cold.” Not that a bra guarantees that no one ever sees my nipples, but any kind of layering at all (bra, undershirt, vest, even a flimsy camisole with a bunch of lace around the nipple area) reduces their profile and makes it less obvious when they’re sticking up more, and when less.

    I guess I am showing my age, but I remember when it was a feminist act to make choices.

    And I do make choices, even about clothing – for instance, I personally choose never to wear high heels. But that’s my trade off, because for me, personally (not for every woman), high heels are agony, while bras are merely confining and uncomfortable. Are you really saying feminism means never picking your battles, but fighting them all?

    As self-described feminists, how can you allow yourself to care about the opinions of those who would call you a slut just because you don’t wear a bra?

    Well, this particular self-described feminist places working the same job as a man for the same pay higher on her agenda for her own personal life than the sexual revolution, if truth be told. And, as far as I can tell, looking professional means looking as asexual as possible.

    Street harrassment, for me, doesn’t have much to do with it. I’ve gone out with and without a bra, and it never made a darn bit of difference to how much I was harrassed (and I suspect, at my size, that people often can’t tell whether I’m wearing a bra anyway). But most days, I do need to dress to a standard I think will be acceptable for work. When I’m an old woman, and retired, and wear purple and eat ice cream instead of beans, and all those things the poem talks about, then I’ll ditch all my bras.

    Till then, I make do with checking the mirror to see whether this day’s outfit is one where I can get away with a spandex undershirt which doesn’t give me any of that unwanted “support.” And otherwise look for sports bras, since I’ve learned that one of the main things that makes regular bras more uncomfortable to me than going braless is the fact that I feel better having my breasts bounce a bit more than having a very small strap dig into my shoulders.

  54. For me, feminism means not allowing my self regard to be defined by patriarchal values. Or anyone elses values — even other feminists for that matter.

    Word. Where have you been all my life!

    I gotta say that in my experience, what I am or am not wearing has very little to do with whether or not I am harrassed by men. If women really believe that their clothing determines whether or not they are or are not sexually harassed by men then we are on a very slippery slope to saying that a woman who is raped and is provacatively dressed is raped because of her clothing. Which is complete and utter busllshit.

    Seriously, I couldn’t agree more. I have been trying to make this point for ages. If I were Ed McMahon, I’d give you 10 million dollars.

  55. Speaking as a male pig, though, whether it’s conditioned or inborn, women’s legs are sexy (shaved or not) … I would love to think my legs are sexy, and people have told me they are, but I just don’t see my, or any other man’s legs as attracting the same sort of attention as women’s legs do … FWIW.

    DAS, could this just be because you don’t fancy men? For example, go to the ballet, or anywhere with male dancers. Why do you think girls love that they wear tights – because it makes it easier to appreciate their glorious shapely legs. Ditto pretty much any male who does lots of sports (I know girls who regularly watch rugby just because they wear short shorts )

  56. Sailorman is sure taking a taking a beating on this thread for what appears to be some elementary, essentially correct mass/volume calculations.

    The specific gravity of muscle in a human body, by the way, is 1.06 — that is, even if a breast consisted entirely of muscle, it would only be only 6% heavier than one filled entirely with water. I don’t believe that anything in the human body, other than bone, has a specific gravity very far off 1 (fat in the body is 0.94; that is, a volume filled with fat would be 6% lighter than one filled with water).

  57. I would estimate, without actually having a scale, that my little AA cups are in the neighborhood of a pound, pound and a half each. 15-22 for D cups, given their increased diameter and length, seems reasonable.

    For example, go to the ballet, or anywhere with male dancers. Why do you think girls love that they wear tights – because it makes it easier to appreciate their glorious shapely legs

    Well, legs and a few other things, yes.

  58. Wow, philosophizer…THANK YOU for the Dillard’s tip! I’m a 34G, give or take depending on time of the month, and I’m always so happy when I find some options out there.

    Bravissimo.com is another great company for us big-boobed women–their bras can be expensive, but they’re generally supportive and attractive.

    As for the subject at hand…yes, I would love to be able to go without a bra, for feminist or any other reason. But that’s not going to happen unless I want to be in extreme pain and discomfort by the end of the day.

  59. On a slightly separate note – anyone know a very good bra shop in Chicago that might carry my size?

    Isn’t Intimacy in Chicago? I think they’re the ones that Oprah uses for her bra shows.

    Sailorman is sure taking a taking a beating on this thread for what appears to be some elementary, essentially correct mass/volume calculations.

    No, Sailorman is taking a beating in this thread for being presumptuous enough to tell a bunch of women with breasts that he knows more about the subject than they do. Also for being utterly wrong about what comprises breast tissue and for accusing me of making a typo when I had blockquoted text.

  60. Apologies for thread drift, but I’ve been to Intimacy, and I have opinions.

    The best thing about Intimacy is that they do alterations on bras, which is absolutely vital if you have a band size below 32. (And I’m a 28G. Which stinks in a big way.) If you have a really small band and a big cup, they’re probably the best you’re going to do in the U.S. At least, they’re the best that I’ve found.

    Having said that, their selection is really, really small. Also, although the fitters are very attentive, I think I ended up with the wrong cup size there. I got a 32DD and got the band altered down to a 28, but I really needed a size or two bigger in the cup. When I went to Bravissimo in London, the fitters found me my right size, and it looks and feels a lot better.

    Finally, although the selection is pretty limited, the bras are very high quality. They’re pricy, but they’re awfully nice. My Bravissimo bras cost about the same amount, and although they fit better, they’re much less well-made.

    i have mine custom made.

    Interesting! Can you tell me more about this?

  61. Here is an abstract comparing MRI to mammography for determining fat percentage in breasts.

    results (with translation):

    In our subjects, fat content was 42.5% +/- 30.3% (mean +/- SD) on mammography versus 66.5% +/- 18% on MR images.

    (2/3 of mammogrammed breasts were between 12.2% and 72.8% fat, and 2/3 of MRI’ed breasts were between 48.5% and 84.5% fat)

    mammography poorly differentiated breasts containing less than 45% fat.

    (so measurements in that range are not likely to be accurate. the authors do not say whether mammography overestimates or underestimates the fat percentage in low fat breasts. based on the MRI info, the mammography error is probably on the low side. without this information, data from mammography should be viewed with suspicion.)
    Whether or not 48% fat composition should be described as “largely fatty tissue” is a question of semantics. However, the percentage of fat goes up as the size of the breast goes up. That’s right – larger breasts do not contain more mammary glands than smaller breasts. The difference in size is due to fat tissue. When describing D cups, it is probably fair to say that there is more fatty tissue than glandular tissue, whether the band size is 32 or 48.

    Let’s assume a given breast is 54% fat by volume (half way between the two averages above), and the glandular tissue has the same density as muscle (can’t find the density of mammary glands online.) Say it’s a D cup breast which weighs 8 pounds, as in the article. How big would that breast be? If it were a hemisphere, it would be 8.8 inches across and 4.4 inches tall. That’s a little taller than the coffee cup on my desk, and little bigger across than a sheet of paper. Looking at my coffee cup on a sheet of paper, that’s one large breast. I’m thinking that’s a little big to be called a D. in fact, the cups on the D cup bras that I paw out of the way looking for my size would not hold a breast that big. maybe someone with some modelling clay (or large breasts, which ever) can mush that around into a normal breast shape and tell us if it fits in a D cup (your choice of band size).

  62. IMO, the analogy is not so much about the one piece of clothing we western women must wear that would be some kind of mirror image to the headscarf.

    I think it’s more of an inverse mirror image. While Muslim women must cover themselves up, we Western women are pressured to do the exact opposite. We’re supposed to highlight our shape as a priority. All clothing as tight as possible, or at least “form-fitting”. Comfort is at the bottom of the list of priorities, and so is functionality. This gets framed, of course, as “freedom”, freedom to be “feminine”, freedom to flaunt our ‘assets”, to “own our sexuality”. it’s not really freedom, is it, though, when that’s the way you’re EXPECTED to dress.

    I personally choose to disregard the pressure and it comes at a steep price. I don’t like to show skin, I don’t like to be uncomfortable, I don’t like to have fabric constricting my body. So 1) it’s a freaking nightmare to find clothes; the only thing available, really, is what we’re supposed to be wearing, which makes you look like you’re shopping 3 sizes too small. 2) You get social cues left and right that you dress weird or “masculine”, when mostly you’re just trying to get normal fitting pants and loose enough shirt to breathe and function; 3) all this difficulties multiply by 100 if you try at the same time to look your (young) age and remotely hip. There’s more consequences but I don’t feel like going on and on. let’s just say, it consumes a lot of energy and inner resources to go against the social mandate.

    To me, the premises to the western pressure are quite similar to the muslim social pressures. Both revolve around the sexualized female body as the primary way to relate to women. Some ask you to cover up, others ask you to bare it. Either way, you obey. mostly.

  63. Let’s assume, for shits and giggles, that the researchers in the article who were studying the breasts in question actually measured the mass of those breasts.

  64. Also, I must conclude that all these losers arguing that breasts weight nothing, really, less than air, have, very sadly for them, never held a breast in their hands.

    They’d love to, of course. They dream about it, scour the internets looking for breasts, including coming to blogs where they assume a lot of women would gather, in the hope they’ll virtually get close to “A Breast.”

    But alas, they still have no access to breasts, not really. So they must drown their inadequacy in deep-sounding pseudoscientific blabber, imagining themselves as experts in what they, in fact, know nothing about.

  65. But that quote doesn’t come from the researchers in that article, it comes from the author of the article. I think it’s fair for us to ask where she got that number.

    But the actual number is basically irrelevant; the fact remains that large breasts are heavy and going without a bra isn’t an option for many people.

  66. wyomeg-

    There is a store in Lisle (suburbs of chicago) called Tina’s closet. I get my bra’s custom made there (I wear a 32 F, not impossible, but my breasts are very wide spaced and I have a larger front of my chest than back, which is very unusual and often leaves me with a bra that gapes in the center and digs in to my breasts on the sides.)

    They have a limited selection of bras in the store, but will order practically anything for you and alter it, or will design a custom made bra if you have issues like me. I paid $50 for the design, and then $70 per bra.

  67. I would like to live in a feminist utopia wherein bras actually fit. I get so tired of constantly adjusting the bra and myself so that my girls don’t spill out the top. This happens no matter where I buy my bras. And I would like to live in a feminist utopia where women in the lingerie department actually knew how to measure you for correct bra size. This is coming from a 34D.

  68. But the actual number is basically irrelevant; the fact remains that large breasts are heavy and going without a bra isn’t an option for many people.

    Yes. I’m sure every one here agrees with that, including those who posted calculations questioning the 15-23 pound number. Please note that those raising the questions are not saying things like, “breasts are light and pose no burdens on women,” but instead are saying “even D size breasts cannot possibly weigh eight (or twelve) pounds each.” The former is a statement that may be attacked on grounds of gender experience — if anyone were actually making that claim. Which no one is.

    But the latter is supportable with the most basic math and science imaginable plus numbers for density of body tissue that you can get off the internet in various places — these are quite literally middle school level mass and volume calculations, #64’s inanity about “deep-sounding pseudoscientific blabber” aside.

  69. what kind of article of clothing worn by Western women might be equivalent to the hijab in terms of cultural/patriarchal pressure to wear it, wearing it won’t protect you from harassment but might keep you from getting branded a slut, not wearing it might be the proper feminist choice, it’s restrictive and/or uncomfortable, and something that women would probably not choose to wear had they their druthers

    Certainly seems to me like nylons and pantyhose fit these criteria a lot closer than bras do.

  70. I get so tired of constantly adjusting the bra and myself so that my girls don’t spill out the top. This happens no matter where I buy my bras.

    Sounds like your cup is too small. Try a 34DD. Also, try a 32DDD (or E: you’re entering the realm where the sizing gets confusing). I think the overflowing often happens when your bra is a band-size too big and a cup-size too small. And remember: every time you go down a bra size, you need to go up a cup-size to get the same sized cups. Because bra manufacturers hate us.

  71. And remember: every time you go down a bra size, you need to go up a cup-size to get the same sized cups.

    Erm, band size. Every time you go down a band size.

    Sorry for the continuing airheadedness and thread-drift!

  72. Not that it’s terribly important, but:

    How big would that breast be? If it were a hemisphere, it would be 8.8 inches across and 4.4 inches tall.

    But they’re not perfect hemispheres. I’ve known women who probably had those rough proportions, except perhaps longer and certainly not uniformly wide. Do they wear D bras? I’m not honestly sure. The real point is, the things are heavy. I’ve held them. Together, they weigh a pretty fair amount, and depending on other factors like general build and posture and muscle connections, I’m sure they create a pretty good amount of downward and forward force on the top of a body. It’s really a much more complicated problem than “how much do breasts weigh?”, when you start asking “how is the normal force against the force of gravity working on the breasts distributed?”.

    Or, for an analogy, I can tell you firsthand that as a backpacker, the way weight is distributed in your pack and how the pack fits on your body are both every bit as important as how much mass you stuff into it.

    Anyway, it’s a moot point. For some, bras are probably pretty necessary things. For others, like me, they’re completely unnecessary. So there’s an element, sure, of social pressure involved — though I never wear bras because I don’t need to, lots of women with breast sizes close to mine do, because they feel they have to. But there’s also an element of necessity involved for probably the vast majority of women who are not, like me, built like teenage boys — for these women, having a bra is probably helpful in the sense that they can do more physical stuff without causing themselves heaps of pain. It’s not as simple as “patriarchical or not?”.

  73. But that quote doesn’t come from the researchers in that article, it comes from the author of the article.

    WTF? did you follow the link? It’s to an abstract published in a scientific journal by the people who did the study. The answer to where the author got her numbers from is she measured them her-damn-self. What do you want, her lab notebooks?

    Let’s assume, for shits and giggles, that the researchers in the article who were studying the breasts in question actually measured the mass of those breasts.

    The mass of the breasts in question would not have bearing on the percentage fat. Density of breasts, which is the term used in the literature to reference fat percentage, has direct relevance to breast cancer risk. Mass and size, less so. Mass and size are related to fat content, but if one needs an accurate measurement of fat content, one would not waste one’s time measuring mass.

    try a 32DDD (or E

    DD=E
    DDD=F

    #68: precisely.

  74. DD=E
    DDD=F

    No. There isn’t an international standard, and when you’re outside the normal range, you’re buying from manufacturers from all over the world. In the US, DD=E. In the UK, which is where my bras come from, E comes after DD and is equivilent to an American DDD or F. If a bra says it’s 32F, you need to know whether it’s an American F or a UK F (or a French F, which is equivilent to an American F, or an Italian F, which is a UK F and an American G).

    So yeah. Confusing. And I don’t think you know as much about this as you think you do.

  75. The mass of the breasts in question would not have bearing on the percentage fat. Density of breasts, which is the term used in the literature to reference fat percentage, has direct relevance to breast cancer risk. Mass and size, less so. Mass and size are related to fat content, but if one needs an accurate measurement of fat content, one would not waste one’s time measuring mass.

    That’s all very well and good, but fat percentage was injected in here by Sailorman and, frankly, is irrelevant to the study discussed in the article. Which, after all, uses mass to figure out the forces exerted on the body by moving breast tissue.

  76. Discussions like these are what make me realize how silly blogging can be. Blogging isn’t going to convince any sizable proportion of the public to change their ideas. It’s more a rallying cry for the die-hards.

  77. Yes. I’m sure every one here agrees with that, including those who posted calculations questioning the 15-23 pound number.

    Even the guy telling me that I missed a decimal point?

  78. But in case anyone cares about continuing this silly fight over the weight of breasts:

    If someone wanted some medical journal citations for breast weight, here’s a start:

    Contribution of breast volume and weight to body fat distribution in females
    American Journal of Physical Anthropology
    Volume 53, Issue 1 , Pages 93 – 100
    Published Online: 5 May 2005
    http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/110489525/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
    Breast weight ( Mean = 484 grams) = ~1lb

  79. http://bioline.utsc.utoronto.ca/archive/00001823/01/pl04016.pdf
    “macromastia … breast weight above 600g [1.3lb]”

    http://www.kfshrc.edu.sa/annals/172/96-091.html
    ” We present an usual case of gigantomastia in a 36-year-old, gravida 9, with a total breast weight of 15,155 grams [33lb]”

    http://mediwire.sma.org/main/Default.aspx?P=Content&ArticleID=196722
    “especially large reductions (>2,000 g [4.4] per breast)”

    (Not peer-reviewed article)
    http://65.218.28.51/indications.htm
    n the average woman, breast weight is usually approximately 200 g. [0.4lb] In patients with gigantomastia, the breasts may weigh in anywhere from 4,000 g [9lb] to 7,000 g [15lb] or more (total).

    Snopes discussion: http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=62;t=001253;p=3

    So in summary, breasts vary greatly in weight. The average breast is much lighter than 15-23lbs, but there are rare breasts that exceed that weight by a large margin.

  80. However, the percentage of fat goes up as the size of the breast goes up. That’s right – larger breasts do not contain more mammary glands than smaller breasts.

    Which appears to have the result of making mammograms less accurate for smaller, denser breasts.

    I would like to live in a feminist utopia wherein bras actually fit.

    That would help, too. So far, I have, in my collection, the itty bitty bra that I spill out of if I move in the slightest (which, given how small I am, means it must have been made to fit someone with almost no breasts at all), the one that fits my cup size but has a stranglehold on my rib cage, the ones whose straps always slide, the one that fits well, but it’s black, so I can’t wear it under half my shirts, the sports bra that was marked as “medium,” and that turned out to mean “medium-sized twelve-year-old girl,” and the two sports bras that fit, but I have to remember that I can’t wear them with anything with a low neckline. I have a feeling that getting a truly comfortable collection of bras might cost me as much as getting comfortable shoes, and, if I can afford only one, I’m best off going for the shoes.

    Certainly seems to me like nylons and pantyhose fit these criteria a lot closer than bras do.

    Nylons and pantyhose are the work of the devil :-). They’re much worse than bras, actually, because they serve no useful function at all, are uncomfortable, and fall apart at the slightest provocation. Fortunately for me, working in the computer field means never having to wear nylons, so I haven’t worn them for nearly twenty years.

    Sorry for the continuing airheadedness and thread-drift!

    I don’t know about zuzu, but I’m all in favor of any thread drift that helps anyone get bras that actually fit :-).

    No. There isn’t an international standard

    Typical for women’s clothing.

  81. In case you care about the percentage:
    Evaluation of Fat in Breast Tissue Removed by Vertical Mammaplasty.
    Plastic & Reconstructive Surgery. 99(2):386-393, February 1997.
    Lejour, Madeleine M.D., Ph.D.
    http://tinyurl.com/y6uaop“This confirmed that pure glandular breasts are uncommon and that breast fat varies largely from one patient to another, with extremes of 2 and 78 percent and a mean value of 48 percent.”

  83. The average breast is much lighter than 15-23lbs

    Note that that figure was cited per pair, not per breast.

  84. Sorry Frumious B, I was replying to zuzu in #63, not to your quoted numbers. In the article quoted in zuzu’s post, the information about breast weight is provided by the author of the article (not the author of the study) and she doesn’t say where she got that number from.

    For the record, I’m a woman and I also find the weight of 15-23lbs for breasts to be surprising (for a D cup anyway, even taking into account that we don’t know the band size). I spent some time this morning looking for information on breast weight and all I could find was an abstract which said that average weight per breast is 484g. But it doesn’t hurt to explicitly say that arguing about the actual weight of breasts doesn’t mean we’re saying that breasts can’t be a burden. That’s why I said what I did.

  85. You’re right, zuzu, that’s per pair, not per breast.

    Some of the comments here seem to be pretty Euro-centric and also exclude the vast history of humankind. It would be interested to learn more about what solutions worked for women outside this specific bra-wearing society today.

    According to this link: http://www.007b.com/why_wear_bras.php bras are a recent invention and have not been used for the majority of human history. Further, the wearing of bras has been primarily a Western phenomenon. Is all that true? I don’t know. But the page raises some interesting points nontheless.

  86. Casey and others looking for larger cup/smaller band sizes: they don’t cover all the extremes, but if you’re 32 or above and J or below, Dillard’s house brand, Cabernet, is reasonably-priced (my two favorite styles are $24 and $32) and has a pretty good assortment of sizes (they’re one of two brands in the world that carry 32DDD for under 30 bucks regular price).

    Hot diggity!

    In some cases, breasts can slap against the chest with enough force to break the clavicle.

    Holy shit.

    Related question:

    Do any of you other large-breasted ladies (34DDD, here) ever noticed a constant aching in your underarms, and the area right outside your underarms on your chest?

  87. Sally-

    Interesting! Can you tell me more about this?

    I get them at a place in Seattle called Decent Exposures. They measure me, i try bras on, they make all the adjustments, then make one just for me. the price is pretty decent, too.

    Absolutely the most comfortable bras i’ve had, although there aren’t really many variations in style/shape. i’m more worried about functionallity, and these are definately functional, although i would love to be able to have some bras for some of my lower-cut dresses.

    I’ve tried Bravissimo but without being able to go to england and get fitted by them i haven’t had much luck. they are all too painful and uncomfortable, or just don’t fit.

  88. Respectfully, I have to disagree with the 15-23 pound statistic.

    In a paper written by one of the women mentioned in the Discover article (Page), the cited average weight of one breast is 200 grams, or .44lb, or less than one pound for a pair. The range for lactating women was 600-800 grams, so up to 1.76 lbs, or 3.52 lbs for the pair.

    The paper:
    Breast Motion and Sports Brassiere Design: Implications for Future Research
    Authors: Page K-A.1; Steele J.R.1
    Source: Sports Medicine, Volume 27, Number 4, 1 April 1999, pp. 205-211(7)

    I am a 34D. I sometimes wear 2 bras to go running, and only I leave the house without a bra once or twice a year: my boobs are relatively heavy. But I am positive that my breasts are not anywhere close to the 15-23 lb range. The lower end of that would mean my breasts are about 12% of my body weight, and almost 18% at the upper limit. Even if I didn’t have a large amount of muscle, this would be incredible.

    I’m having a really, really hard time believing that D cups weigh 15-23 pounds, even as a pair. The pain and expense of breasts is already more than most of us want to deal with at an average size; we don’t have to exaggerate the weight.

  89. As the straps dig into the brachial plexus, the nerve group that runs down the arm, they may cause numbness in the little finger.

    Oh my god. That explains a lot. I guess I need new bras?

    (38 D. These babies feel pretty damn heavy when I’m schlepping them around all day.)

  90. I don’t know if my breasts(34DD) do weigh 20 lb or so. All I know is that there are plenty of days when it feels like they do! In all seriousness, my spine was genetically designed to handle my breasts(oh, the woes of being short!), and unless I both have a good bra and am under a certain weight, I get back pains.
    Ironically, I once tried on an 18th century corset in a fashion museum, and the relief my spine felt was glorious. If I ever find one which I can both afford and get on and off easily, I’m buying it and wearing it, and I really don’t give a damn if I end up looking funny.

  91. No, bras haven’t been worn for the majority of history. But something has been done to keep the breasts from flapping around. Corsetry and stays do that, and I was recently part of an experiment in medieval dress reconstruction that proved that you can take a 38 F and put it into a two-layer linen dress that if fitted to you properly will give you all the support you need without boning, binding, etc. I love my dress. I would wear it all the time if I could.

  92. Bill, the argument is about two things: on the surface it’s an argument about whether the figure in the article that zuzu quoted can be trusted. Beneath the surface is a discussion of whether a man who has no breasts and doesn’t seem to have any special expertise in things mammary might be seen to be a bit nervy in challenging a woman who has breasts and carts the durned things around all day how much they weigh.

    And in Europe, prior to the invention of the bra, for several centuries women wore corsets, stays, or flatteners, (depending on the era and the fashions), which compressed, squooshed, or pushed the breasts into a shape considered desirable in the fashions of the day. Prior to the corset? I don’t really know. It seems unlikely to me (as a woman with reasonably large breasts) that women just dealt with the jiggles and considered them an unfortunate aspect of their feminity, but most of the information I have goes back only as far as the fourteenth century and pertains only to Europe.

    Finally, please, everyone, but especially Fruminous B, cup size is not an absolute (as someone else mentioned upthread). You can’t say that a D cup has a given mass. Cup size measures the difference between the underbust measurement and the overbust measurement. So if a woman measures 28 under the bust, she needs to add 4 inches to get her band size, which will be 32. If at the fullest part of her bust she measures 32, her cup size is A. If her overbust measures 33, her cup size is B. If her friend measures 33 under the bust, she adds 5 inches to get her bra size: 38; if her overbust measurement is 39, she’s a 38-B (probably) but her boobs are going to have more tissue than her friend’s, probably.

    I wear a 32-E, most days, and when I see 38-D bras, I’m all “OMG, those cups are huge!” If the world went through a sudden shortage of 32-E bras (or bras with size-32 bands), I would not be able to buy a 38-E bra and just take the band in. I’d have to buy a 36-B and take it in some weird way (well, I’d probably have to start making my own, but you get my point.)

    Shape and ummm…floppiness of the breast also have a lot to do with whether a woman can go braless. I can manage on days when I forget to bring a non-sports bra to change into at work (I cycle to work, and work at a desk most of the day). I feel a bit exposed, but as long as I don’t have to carry stuff up and down stairs, I’m okay. There are women with smaller chests than mine who have floppier breasts, who have more trouble.

  93. Maybe we should start a separte thread for those looking for a good bra! Maybe there’s already a site dealing with this that isnt affiliated with a certain store or brand. Anyone know?
    My problem is I live in a remote area. I am headed to Chicago for a short trip and had planned on visiting the Intimacy store while there (found them last night). If they don’t carry anything in my size, I’d rather not waste my time and instead keep trying through the online ordering route. I’ll give them a call tomorrow to see what they do carry. I’ve often thought of trying custom makes, but right now it isn’t too feasible as I’m just 3 months into this pregnancy and am expecting some more growth. Can’t wait for that.
    Thanks for the help and suggestions!

  94. But why focus on the quote that talks about the breaking clavicle part and not the pain caused by the bra straps themselves? As a D/DD woman myself, I find “discomfort” is a relative term. I think going without a bra, and letting your breasts move, is actually MORE comfortable than strapping them down so they DON’T move. But I find it MORE comfortable not to be stared at when wearing a thin/light-colored/close-fitting top, so I tend to wear a bra in the very rare situations when I wear a top like that.

    Jogging is relative, too. The more you go without a bra, the more your muscle builds up under your breasts, and the more comfortable all movement — including jogging — isn’t a problem for your breasts.

    Also: Western-centric, indeed.

  95. Edith, the clavicle thing is shocking in a way that grooves from bra straps aren’t. Plus, are you serious about muscle building up? Breasts are not made of muscle tissue, so no matter how you build up your pecs, your breasts aren’t going to be perky. Go read piny’s posts about his breasts if you’re not clear on this.

    Also: Western-centric, indeed.

    So friggin’ what? We’re in the West over here!

  96. I have to say when it comes to breasts or periods or any other feminine pain in the ass subject, I am seeing many men making jerks of themselves.
    I don’t have breasts.
    I don’t have periods.
    Therefore while I may state facts all day long it does not give me any insight as to what having breasts or periods would actually be like.
    For this reason I will not get into the weight issue. If you say they hurt then they hurt. It is simple, and yes I also can be clueless sometimes.
    I was in the Navy in A school in electronics and one of the women classmates was nearsighted and was temporarily without glasses (2 weeks). When we all had to gather round to see something she always stood next to me. Whenever I would turn her direction my elbow would poke her. After a couple of times in which I didn’t consider this a problem she joked goodnatured about it but with an undercurrent of telling me I was a genderclueless fool. The point was taken and I made sure from that point on that I looked before I turned. I will always look back with fondness to her for finding a nice way to tell me she had boob right of way.

    The more I now know about these issues the more embarrassed I am by my youthful cluelessness. A lot of men don’t outgrow this.

  97. zuzu, I clearly said the muscle UNDER the breasts. UNDER. Remember gym at all? The exercise where you throw out your arms, without or without the asinine chanting of “we must, we must, we must increase our bust,” actually can help develop your pecs.

    Oh, and so friggin’ what, we’re all from the West? Very nice. *rolls eyes*

  98. Plus, are you serious about muscle building up? Breasts are not made of muscle tissue, so no matter how you build up your pecs, your breasts aren’t going to be perky.

    The breasts themselves may not get stronger muscles, but the muscles of the back, shoulders, arms and chest can get stronger, leading to more comfort without a bra.

    The analogy might be that always wearing a very supportive bra is a bit like always using a wheelchair – you’re leg muscles, and your breast-support muscles, can’t gain strength if they are never used.

    I wonder if some sort of physical therapy could be developed to have exercise that help women be more comfortable without needing a bra?

    The point would not be “perkiness” but rather having the muscle strength to bear the necessary load with ease. The end result might not be attractive in a conventionally western sense. If you think about National Geographic photos of women in cultures that don’t wear bras, breasts tend to be more pointed and hanging than the western ideal.

  99. Edith, the clavicle thing is shocking in a way that grooves from bra straps aren’t. Plus, are you serious about muscle building up? Breasts are not made of muscle tissue, so no matter how you build up your pecs, your breasts aren’t going to be perky. Go read piny’s posts about his breasts if you’re not clear on this.

    Excuse me. Chesticles. Only I may call them breasts.*

    I don’t think she argued that they will make them perkyn like acorn squash–although exercises that build up the pectorals and back/core muscles can make your rack look a little perkier, even if they won’t actually change the shape of the boobs themselves.

    That having been said, we-must-type exercises usually aren’t even a little bit strenuous.

    And I felt uncomfortable running downstairs even after my pecs were freakin’ huge and everything else had shrunk down to a low a-cup. It was bouncy and shocky and weird. It might not be solely due to weight and muscle support.

    Oh, and so friggin’ what, we’re all from the West? Very nice. *rolls eyes*

    It’s a discussion by bra-wearers about the utility of the bra. Other options don’t enter into it because there’s not much personal experience with them and also because it wasn’t, “Is there a rational reason to support one’s boobage?” but, “Is the bra a concession to patriarchy?”

    *I’m kidding, just so we’re absolutely clear and also so that no one actually calls them chesticles.

  100. I wonder if some sort of physical therapy could be developed to have exercise that help women be more comfortable without needing a bra?

    Why? If you’re comfortable with a bra, why go to a great deal of trouble to maybe become comfortable without one? It’s not as if the bra is intrinsically crippling, like foot-binding or something.

  101. Why? If you’re comfortable with a bra, why go to a great deal of trouble to maybe become comfortable without one? It’s not as if the bra is intrinsically crippling, like foot-binding or something.

    Well, finding a bra that does the job well seems to be a major problem for a lot of women here. Bra-wearing seems to bring on its own discomforts, such as digging bra straps, wandering underwires, or just not having the right fit to provide enough support. Bras, in general, seem to be a far from perfect solution to the problem of breast discomfort.

    If something can be done so that the bra isn’t essential for comfort, or so that a wider range of bra variations provide the needed support because the body can handle more of the weight, it would give more options, and greater comfort.

    How much of the discomfort that leads to “needing” a bra comes from being put in a bra as soon as breasts begin to develop, or even earlier, so there is no chance for the body to adapt to the new weight of the breasts? Making women artificially dependant on a commercial product for their comfort.

    My bras are 44D, but my mother didn’t take me to buy my first bra until I was already in a B cup, and I’ve never worn bras for more than half of my waking hours. I can be quite comfortable without a bra, for activities short of running or jogging. How much of that is because by not wearing a bra much, my body developed the strength to handle the weight of my breasts? I’m not sure, being a non-scientific sample of one, but my hunch is that there is something to it.

  102. Well. I must’ve lucked into the right bra size for me (36C) cause I wear my bras all the time, even when I sleep. Sometimes I get lazy on the weekends and go without but after a few hours, sometimes a whole day, I get tired of and irritated with the boob/against skin sticking/sagging and put a bra on. I’m not really comfortable without a bra.

  103. Well, finding a bra that does the job well seems to be a major problem for a lot of women here.

    And I’m one of them, and am quite comfortable, even running and jogging, without a bra. I just think, if you’re at the point where the bra is a major gain in comfort (whether because of breast size, or build, or whatever), I’d say wear the bra.

    How much of the discomfort that leads to “needing” a bra comes from being put in a bra as soon as breasts begin to develop, or even earlier, so there is no chance for the body to adapt to the new weight of the breasts?

    It’s possible that’s part of it, and that some, or even many, girls might do well not getting bras as early as they get them.

  104. Just to clear up some anatomical misunderstandings here*:

    The pectoral muscles do not really do all that much to support the breasts, especially larger breasts. If you look at a good cross-section drawing of a breast, that becomes very obvious, as the pectoral muscle runs *under* the breast tissue, not through or around it in anyway. What *is* supporting the majority of the weight of the breast tissue is the skin and connective tissue around the mass of fat/ductwork/connective tissue that actually makes up the breast. This is why as we get older, the girls start to sag, more or less depending on (cup) size, base of the breast size (wider based breasts just tend to sag less in general than more narrowly based breasts), weight fluctuations, pregnancy/breastfeeding, and your own genetic make-up. That skin that is holding up the majority of the weight is, for most women, as delicate as the skin under the eyes. That is, not very strong/elastic at all.

    Strengthening the pectoral muscles will not help support the breasts all that much. Smaller breasted gals may get a little lift, but for most of us, not so much. I’m not sure I agree with putting young girls into bras *before* their breasts start to develop, but for many girls, the developing breasts are quite tender, and a bra may help with discomfort at that point, too. Much like many women find that wearing a bra when their breasts are tender around their periods can be more comfortable. So no, I don’t believe in any way that wearing bras makes us *dependent* upon them for support, as there are no muscles integrally involved in breast support to begin with. There may be a measure of psychological comfort for some folks involved, but that is going to be an individual thing.

    *Please note, I’m not a doctor or any other sort of health professional. However, I do work with women’s breast support issues almost every day of my professional life as a costumer/custom seamstress. I also have a fairly decent science background. Really — look at the anatomical drawings if you don’t believe me. Breasts “float” (in as much as ANY part of your body floats) *above* the chest muscles. For there to be any sort of support factor involved, the muscle would at the very least need to cup under the mass of tissue at the bottom of the breast, or perhaps wrap around it from the upper outside edge to the lower inside edge. That’s just basic engineering, of either sort.

  105. Word, Laurie.

    It’s definitely true that back/shoulder/chest-strengthening exercises can help alleviate some of the painful effects from carrying around the weight of large breasts, but they won’t make any difference when it comes to the uncomfortable movement that happens when one isn’t wearing a bra.

    Especially for those of us on the floppier side, a bra helps to redistribute the weight of the breasts so that the back and shoulder muscles are less stressed–something that can’t be accomplished solely with exercise (and believe me, I’ve tried.)

    The only time I’m comfortable without a bra for long periods is when I’m reclining or my breasts are being supported some other way (like with a pillow)–otherwise I find that constant pulling feelind distracting and painful. I’ve joked many times about hiring someone to walk around behind me and carry my boobs for me–no bra needed then! 🙂

  106. I assumed the suggestion was that exercises would help with the back and shoulder pain; I can’t imagine why anyone would expect them to prevent sagging or movement. (And, in either case, I don’t see much reason to try really hard to be able to do without something that makes you more comfortable.)

  107. Horning in on the bra fit discussion…

    Wow, every single time this issue comes up I’m amazed at how many women come out of the woodwork to share thier pain – finding a fitting bra seems to be a near universal struggle among western women.

    That said – a lot of you who are having trouble getting the right fit to a bra, this little factoid may help. Almost every single set of bra fitting instructions that I’ve found either on line or in the lingerie departments at stores is WRONG.

    Almost all of them have some complex formula for calculating the bra size, but really what they do is estimate what commonly available bra size you can get away with – not what acutally fits. That’s because even most stores speciallizing in plus sizes don’t carry anycup larger than a D or DD. The last time I used one of those calculators it told me I was a 48D (I’m a 42F, possibly even a 40G since my band size changes by a good inch or two over the course of a year). To the person who quoted a half sphere 8″ in diameter and 4″ tall as ridiculous – that pretty much describes my breasts and as you can see, some stores would call these girls a D. (You could maybe shave off half an inch each way – though I realize that that reduces the volume/mass by the cube).

    Most bras are true to band measurement – the width of your chest under the breasts (not under the armpits and over the breasts, nor chest measurement plus 4-5″ – two common recomendations.) A band that fits is key because that’s where the majority of the support is supposed to come from – NOT the straps (in my best fitting bra I can slip the straps off without losing much support). And as someone pointed out above, once you get above a D, cup sizes are not standard so you have to try them on and see how they look and feel. Underwires should fit against the breast bone in the middle(!), the cups should be full and smooth but you shouldn’t be overflowing them, and the band should not be riding up in the back. The style and cut can also make a huge difference towards the fit – for example, I simply can’t wear demi-cup, plunge or pushup styles because my breasts aren’t firm enough. I need full coverage.

    Intimacy has a great web site that goes over some of the most common bra fitting mistakes (http://www.myintimacy.com/bramistake.html). It’s geared at selling their services, but it’s also full of good information. When I finally got a bra that fit I was amazed at how comfortable it was.

    On the other hand, those of you who prefer to go without – Go You! I wish I could join you but I’m not even comfortable lounging around the house without a bra.

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