This Will Not End Well October 9, 2006 zuzu Why, why can’t people actually discuss whether they want children before they get married, rather than dancing around it or making assumptions and then finding out their spouse’s desires are not the same as theirs?
Sometimes you get married before you know whether you’d like to have kids, or you change your mind ten years after you get married.
Changing your mind or not being sure is one thing, but never having had the discussion in the first place is another. From this woman’s account, she took one cryptic comment by her boyfriend as an indication that he was open to having kids, only to find out later, after they were married, that he wasn’t.
Ugh, I agree that this will probably end badly, but I can see Sara’s point. A friend of mine goes back and forth between SERIOUS extremes–between baby rabies and child-free-for-life–like, every week. The difference is that she and her husband have had several in-depth discussions, some with couples counselors, in an effort to make sure their relationship survives whatever kids do or do not show up. Whereas the woman in the article seems to have fallen prey to that odd magical thinking that people adopt when they marry: “it’ll be fine, because marriage will change everything.” news flash, kiddo….
Getting married doesn’t make you magically want kids. Having a kid doesn’t magically make you want it, although some seriously deep, brainstem level reflexes will make you want to protect the child and worry about it. All that means is that you’ll go through hell if you keep it and hell if you give it up for adoption. Having an unwanted child must be like being addicted to a drug you hate: never happy either with the child or away from it, never free from worry but not interested in childrearing and so unable to derive any joy from the child either. Wanting kids–and having kids–doesn’t make you magically willing to give up the things you can’t have anymore once you have kids (the spontenaity, dinners in fancy restaurants, etc.) You have to want the kids badly enough to be willing to give those things up for a time and think of the things that go with the child as adequate compensation. This couple needs to talk frankly and decide whether they really want a child or just want to want a child. It will end badly for everyone, especially their offspring, if they do it because of a cute picture.
It seems strange that you could have any sort of close relatinship with someone, without finding out where they stand on having kids. I’ve never been engaged to any of my friends, but I know who wants kids and who doesn’t. Did they just, like… never talk at all?
My mother bought me this book called “The Hard Questions”. It’s a teensy little book you’d expect to see as an impulse purchase in line at B&N, but it’s full of these important questions you and your partner should discuss, pre-marriage. My boyfriend and I went through it somewhat jokingly, but it has some good stuff people should go over (how much money you hope to earn in life, what religious holidays you observe, how much sex you think is healthy to have). But a lot of the questions it raised were things we had discussed on our own, just in conversation. I find it hard to believe she “filed away” his comment, and then NEVER BROUGHT IT UP AGAIN, except to be disappointed now. Maybe, as lizzie bee says above, she had brought it up, heard him say “no,” and thought he’ll want them later, once we’re married!
I think it’s also hard for childfree people to bring up the subject period. Conceivably it would be easier and more fruitful (only word I could think of) to bring it up with your lifelong mate, but explanations for not wanting any children at all could range from a strong dislike for children to a lack of desire of having that much responsibility for someone else’s life (my reason for being childfree) to just wishing to preserve your financial and personal independence. That article is very dread inspiring because it highlights some of the reasons people should NOT have children: they don’t exist solely for your personal well-being, and they carry more responsibility than pets. (Apologies if that last part sounds harsher than I intend it, but that’s how I feel about it.)
I think it’s also hard for childfree people to bring up the subject period. Oh, I disagree. I, personally, am very clear about it. It’s right there in my personal ad, and I let anyone I date know that I’ve had my tubes tied and I have no interest in kids. I also don’t date men who already have kids, since I’m not just not interested in having them, I’m also not interested in raising them. Better that I get it all out in the open from the get-go than pussyfoot around it and get all attached to someone who has his heart set on having kids.
I think Casey hits it out of the park–this is part and parcel of people not wanting to ask the hard questions before they get married. It’s not just with regard to kids–though that, of course, is a major point–it’s with regard to money, home life, travel, career…all of these are issues that both partners will have to agree on to some extent, and if compromise is in order, they have to be sure they can compromise. Sometimes it’s easy (yes, I can live in the suburbs even though I like the city more), sometimes tougher (no, I/you can’t stay home with the children, we just can’t afford it), sometimes insoluable (I want children, you don’t.) But people choose not to have these discussions, and it inevitably comes back to bite them. If you really want children, you’re not going to be happy with someone who doesn’t –and you’re kidding yourself if you think they “just will” later. If you’re careful with money, you don’t want to marry a spendthrift, unless you want to be less careful. And vice versa to both, and all the others. I understand why people don’t talk. I didn’t before I got married. I myself am a free spender, my ex was not, and though I knew that at some level, I was not honest with her or myself about my willingness to sacrifice. And that destroyed our marriage over time. As for now, I know what I want and what I don’t; I have a daughter, and I love her to pieces, and I don’t want any more children, because she’s enough. And if I found the right woman to settle down with now, but she wanted children–then I’d either have to honestly find I’d changed my mind (doubtful, but you never know), or honestly tell her that I just did not want another kid, period. And if that’s a dealbreaker–better to break up before the wedding than after.
I wonder if the husband would be more interested if they were both out of grad school. And it’s easy to be ambivalent about having a kid while in a phd program if one wants a career in academia. It’s very difficult to have a kid pre-tenure — but the fertility clock is ticking and most people cannot wait until tenure to have children. And she’s in a PhD program & not yet finished with the dissertation. You’d think academia would be more supportive of having kids then a corporate lifestyle. Nope.
Because real love means never having to actually SAY anything out loud; duh. if the partners had REALLY LOVED each other they’d’ve just known, via osmosis. They failed the test of Twoo Luv. pity.
If you really want children, you’re not going to be happy with someone who doesn’t –and you’re kidding yourself if you think they “just will” later. That really hits home for me. My ex (fiance) and I discussed the concept of having children pretty much from the beginning. At first I didn’t want them, period (I was 15). Then when he and I first started living together and were really happy together (I was 19) I realized I really wanted children. The whole time he said he thought he might want children, eventually – you know “when the time was right”, “when we were well off financially”, yadda yadda. I believed him. Then he told me that it was possible he was sterile from the Chemo when he was 17… he went to the hospital and they ran a test and he was sterile. That was a hard blow for me, he said it was hard for him too. I believed him. We were together for several more years but we (by that I mean he… I did lots of research) never explored other avenues to becoming parents. I found more and more that I was the one bringing it up and he was the one unwilling to talk about it as more than vague ramblings about maybe sometime in the future. My heart broke in tiny pieces at a time as I came to realize more and more the truth. He did not, and would not ever want children. I finally stopped believing him and it hurt like hell. He admitted, long after we’d split, that he was afraid of telling me the truth for fear that I would leave him. And I did, not entirely for those reasons, but it was a big one. The dishonesty, the break-down in communications, the hurt feelings, sense of hopelessness… it’s one thing to think that you’re just putting off having kids, it’s another to think you might NEVER have any. Hell, I often thought that it might be easier for me had *I* been the sterile one, that it would’ve somehow been easier for me to accept, but even that thought depressed me. The truth is that he was hoping that someday he WOULD change his mind, so he lied to me – hoping to keep me around for that someday. He never should’ve lied to me.
I’m totally ambivalent about the idea of having kids. Around the age of 18 or so, I was positive that I’d want them someday. Six years later, I’m leaning toward the no kids ever side. I mean, shit happens. Even if I were positive that I wanted kids, I could end up being infertile or never financially stable enough to feel comfortable having them or I could get pregnant tomorrow and feel that I might as well just go with it. Even when you do plan for a family, plans might change, especially in a relationship of equals.
i understand the ambivalence — i was totally ambivalent about having kids. it’s the number one main issue that my husband & i discussed at length & ad nauseum before deciding to get married. i was pretty much always 60/40 — though it would change from one week whether the 60 was pro or con. never completely adamant one way or another. it was so hard. my (now) husband definitely wanted to have children though, and i finally concluded that the strongest reason that i had against it was that i was afraid — afraid it would be too hard, afraid i wouldn’t like motherhood, afraid of losing my lifestyle. i decided that i didn’t want fear to be making my decisions for me. now we’ve been married for nearly a year & have a wonderful, darling, healthy, happy 5 month old little boy whom we both adore & cherish beyond our wildest expectations. so it turned out well. but i do understand the ambivalence and do understand the desire to not have children. the important thing is that my husband & i talked about it a lot, until we were able to work our way clear to a conclusion we could both be happy with. i think it helps that we’re older, though. i’m 39 and he’s 50. i’ve seen too many marriages break up after 5-10 years because the couple didn’t agree on whether or not they wanted kids. and always the question — didn’t they talk about this BEFORE they decided to get married?
I was really clear I wanted kids, dropped all guys who said they didn’t, and made sure to bring it up before I was married. I can’t imagine not doing so, if you’re clear about what you want. But I do agree with Sara that even talking about it beforehand is no guarantee that circumstances or minds won’t change later, or that you’ll both really know what you want.
I have never wanted kids. Every partner I have ever had was told up front, no kids. They didn’t always beleive me, but that was really their problem. My girlfriend’s marriage broke up when her wife starting actively trying to get pregnant using a sperm bank. At one point we were talking about the whole thing, and I asked why they hadn’t discussed the child issue right at the beginning. My gf’s response was, “It didn’t seem important back then.” And that just totally blew my mind. I can’t think of anything more important than whether or not one beomes responsable for the life and welfare of another human being.
As Sara said, sometimes you change your mind ten years after you get married. Or seven years, in my ex’s case. Before we got married we both agreed we didn’t want kids, but at 29 she changed. Unfortunately, it was another six years before she gave up trying to bring me around and asked for a divorce, and by the time she remarried she was over 40, so she never did have one.
Important things to resolve pre-wedding: 1) Dietary issues 2) Childary issues 3) Monetary issues 4) Sanitary issues 5) There is no five, because I’m drunk 6) Mind-altering chemicals and their place in your home 7) Money-altering lifestyles and their place in your bank accounts (see #3, but with gambling!) 8) Sex-altering lifestyles and their place in your dungeon 9) You like cats, don’t you? Don’t you?!?!
I worry about that with my partner. My last beau and I broke up before it ever became an issue, but this one … I’d like to have around for a while, you know? And he wants kids at some point. I don’t want kids. But, he wants kids. His parents want him to have kids. (Mine are somewhere between “Oh please God don’t breed you’ll spread teh gay” and “Oh your biological clock will kick in eventually”.) But I don’t want kids. So I worry, because I’ve seen relationships go to hell over less. When we part, I want it to be … amicable, if possible.
ha, I had fun with this topic. I knew my boyfriend-just-might-as-well-be-my-fiance wanted kids, but he had only mentioned it fleetingly, albeit passionately. I figured that he’d want more than one since he was pretty much raised an only child though he had a stepbrother and sister living not to far away (His mom and the stepmonster fought over silly things like mac and cheese). Somewhere along the line I translated that as my worst feminist nightmare of him wanting 5 kids and having me care nonstop for them. It made me scared as hell continuing la-dee-da in our relationship. Sometime later we talked about that m-word and the spawning issue came up again. I asked him rather panicky about how many kids he wanted and was relieved beyond a doubt when his answer was 2, at the most. Whew! Joy! And very happy to get that out of the way at least 3-5yrs before any vow taking. Now really the more impotant relationship issues are 1) him actually talking about his religious and political views beyond what I can infer from everyday interaction and 2) talking about when these hypothetical children might be concieved and born
Mighty Ponygirl, add religion in there, and I think you’ve got a winner. Of course, I have to also ask, “What do you read?” Because if they don’t — that’s bad. That’s very bad.
Technocracygirl — In my experience, the religion question is something that’s usually resolved prior to marriage, as marriage is sponsored by religion. If he’s Jewish and she’s Catholic and they can’t agree on which sect to have the wedding in, no wedding. Similarly, you’d probably not date someone who didn’t read, much less consider marrying them.
My husband was first married at age 21 to a woman from uni who said “I don’t want children”. He didn’t believe that she really meant it, he thought she would change her mind. She didn’t. So, because he loved her, he stayed anyway. Until a decade down the track when they started to have problems, and all of a sudden the baby-yearning came back for him, and she still didn’t want kids. It took another five years before their differences led to a divorce, and I met him two years later. There were lots of other issues, but if they’d both wanted kids or both not wanted them, they may have had a chance to work through them together. Good luck for me and our two lovely children, as if he’d believed her about not wanting kids when he was 21 he wouldn’t have married her, and probably would have married someone he would then have had kids with and stayed with, and we would never have ended up together. Sad for that marriage all the same though. What a lot of pain and distress would have been avoided with a more thorough discussion of plans and wants before the wedding.
I was pretty dumb about it in the past with the ex-fiance. My previous long-term boyfriend was childfree, and I could not conceive that someone who would be interested in dating me would view me as a great future babymomma. I’m weird and about as nurturing as a piranha. I just assumed: if he’s interested in me, he ain’t gonna see me as Mom. Well, months later, surprise, surprise. We talked about it, he said he’d rather have me and no kids than the vice versa… then he proceeded to say “WHEN we have kids,” over and over, and I had to yell at him a lot to get him to stop. (Ironically, this ex is probably sterile, but we didn’t find that out until around the end of the relationship.) Much like other things (such as me saying that I had no intention of changing my name), he wanted to believe what he wanted to believe, regardless of what I yelled at him otherwise. I do wonder, when does one bring that fact up on dates? On date one or two? I guess that is required these days. Unfortunately, a good chunk of people just Will Not Believe You anyway. It’s a shame that I am too afraid of surgery to go through with sterilization (assuming anyone would do it to me), because it’d be hard to play the “La la la, change your mind, denial!” game around that one. I was incredibly annoyed with this woman. What a dink. The strange thing being that she mentions having childfree moments herself (even now!), and then wonders why he didn’t change his mind along with her. I am also annoyed at the “Now that I’m all grown up, grown-ups always want children” tone. Oh, and that photo is NOT your son. Lady, you are deranged. Even if Kembrew gave you his sperm, a kid wouldn’t necessarily turn out like that.
My husband being Catholic, I agreed to marry in a Catholic church–didn’t bother me much where we got married, so long as we did, and the location was very important to him. Part of the marriage prep we were required to do in order to be allowed to marry in the church included attending Engagement Encounter–a weekend program which is meant to have the engaged couple take time out of their regular obligations to get away, spend time focusing on each other and the sort of questions such as Mighty Ponygirl posted up. There was also a questionnaire thing, I forget what it was called (something something inventory), which was meant to be a quick identifier of issues which might need to be discussed pre-marriage. It was set up like Ye Olde Standardized Test, with statements over potentially divisive issues (We have agreed upon the number of children we want; We have decided upon how to split up housework; Sometimes my finace/e does things that bother me; I am hoping that when we marry my fiance/e will change; We have talked about how we will address bills; Sometimes my fiance/e scares me)–the potential answers were agree, disagree, or uncertain. Ideally, the couple has no disagreement, to show they’re on the same page, and picks the “right” answer (for example, disagee on the lattermost, or agree on the formermost). Where there’s disagreement, or where the “wrong” answer has been chosen, the test “grader” highlights the issue. It was neat. We’d addressed many of the questions just through normal conversation, but some of them I had thought we’d addressed but Mike wasn’t on the same page, and vice versa. And some things we hadn’t talked about because they weren’t on the top list of What We Talk About Today (such as finances, which aren’t nearly as fun to talk about as theology, education, or children). With EE, we also got to hear different POVs, as well. I believe I bitched about Catholicism in this blog a little earlier (or was that Pandragon?) but I can’t complain about our marriage prep at all. It was all good stuff.
Yeah, the Pre-Cana counseling is one of the strong points of the religion. Because marriage is a sacrament, they take it pretty seriously and make sure you know what you’re getting into before you get married. That, to me, is the key to lowering the divorce rate: making sure that couples considering marriage really know, realistically, without all the hearts and flowers, what they’re getting into.