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Shorter Dawn Eden: Chill out, ladies, you’ve got all the silly rights you need!

This week, Dawn Eden takes on feminism. And it’s… special.

First, she lauds the word of Feminists for Life, a group which she says “walk[s] the talk” when it comes to “pro-life” activism, which basically means that they actually try to help poor women and college women when they get pregnant. Now, I can certainly support pro-life groups which seek to help pregnant women and which aim to give women more options. But Feminists for Life, despite their support of a handful of pro-choice and progressive bills which actually help women, are nearly as ass-backwards as Dawn and her ilk when it comes to the basics of preventing abortions.

According to FFL,

Since the Washington, D.C., office opened in 1994 and a new executive director (now president) Serrin Foster was hired to lead Feminists for Life, FFL has successfully and uniquely worked to address the root causes that drive women to abortion.

Basic question time: What is the root case that drives women to abortion?
Basic answer: Unintended/unwanted pregnancy.

Not too tough, right? And so it would logically follow that if we want to prevent abortions, we should tackle the root cause and help women who don’t want to be pregnant to not get pregnant in the first place. That would remove the need for abortion. And I think most women would greatly prefer to prevent unintended pregnancy in the first place than to get unintentionally pregnant and have a whole bunch of “feminist” anti-choicers telling them that everything will be ok because, look, FFL occassionally challenges welfare reform!

Obviously, pro-choice activists must work to help women prevent unintentional pregnancies in the first place and make it easier for women who choose to give birth to do so. And that’s exactly what feminist and pro-choice groups do. It’s not what Feminists for Life does.

But in my skepticism of “Feminists” for life, I digress. Back to Dawn:

Even so, all that “pro-woman” — as though it were opposed to “pro-family” — and “feminist” talk gets awfully tiresome. One could say it’s merely a euphemism for “pro-women’s-rights,” a concept that would be admirable if there remained any basic human right that American women (those out of the womb, that is) were denied.

I actually chuckled out loud when I read this. Because Dawn’s right, isn’t she? American women are incredibly lucky, and on a legal level, we aren’t across-the-board denied any basic human right — except, you know, we would be if Dawn got her way. Because if we lived in the dream world of Dawn and her anti-choice friends, we wouldn’t have basic rights to our own bodies. And bodily autonomy is a basic human right.

Not to mention that “pro-family” actually came out as a term after “pro-woman” was in use, making “pro-family” the term which is actually opposing itself to pro-woman, not the other way around.

But there’s something vulgar about reducing one’s area of advocacy to a group of people who share a particular biological makeup. Martin Luther King didn’t confine his movement to the reductionist tag “pro-black”; the terms “civil rights” and “equality,” while they have gained various connotations over time, nonetheless embrace all humanity.

That’s right, kiddies, Martin Luther King Jr. and the civil rights movement wasn’t actually about black people — it was about all people! Because all people are oppressed, and it was truly just a fuzzy-nice movement about all of our humanity.

Think of it the other way: Would you want to be locked in a room with a “masculist”? Someone who saw every issue through a “pro-man” lens?

Heh. No, I wouldn’t like that so much — and yet, that’s life every damn day, because the dominant cultural conversation is set by men, had by men, and revolves around men. W’re already locked in the room with the masculinists, Dawn. Feminists are trying to change that.

Manly men are manly precisely because they are pro-God, pro-family, pro-community — not “pro-man.”

I see Dawn’s been channeling Harvey Mansfield. Ok then. “Manly men” can certainly be all of those things, but isn’t it a wee bit convenient that they get to shape all of those outlets to suit their interests?

Better to be not a “feminist,” not “pro-woman,” but simply a member of the human race. Because women deserve better than feminism — even when it’s used as a guise for attracting aged liberals and their teenage daughters.

Funny, as I’m nearly an “aged liberal” or a teenage girl. But Dawn’s point is clear: Feminism is only for old, useless hags and silly little girls. You know, the people who don’t matter. At least there’s one thing that Dawn and I agree on: She is certainly not pro-woman.

It’s easy to simply be “a member of the human race” when you’re in a pretty damned privileged position within that race. Now, I’m in a similar position as Dawn — white, rich (by global standards), American, literate, educated, employed, and living in an urban community with many resources. But I don’t fool myself into thinking that just because I have access to all these things that everyone does. And I don’t fool myself into thinking that I would have had access to these things without feminism.

Dawn may be content with sticking her head in the sand, and ignoring the fact that not every woman in the world (or in the United States) is as privileged as she is. She may even be content in pretending that she has all the same rights, liberties and privileges as rich white American men. If it helps her sleep at night to blame the evils of feminism for the fact that she didn’t get pushed into marriage at 17, and was able to work and support herself without the financial need for a husband, then more power to her. If one’s primary goal in life is marriage, and Dawn would have been fully willing to foresake her education, her career, her social interactions, her political activities and her basic rights for a husband, that’s her business, and she’s welcome to put the culpability on feminism for the fact that she doesn’t have everything she wants (although, as we know, it’s not an either/or situation between marriage and a life, but that’s another post). She can even refer to women like Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan and Simone de Beauvoir — without whom Dawn would have had precious fewer of the rights she so takes for granted — as “old, obselete baggage.”

But I think it’s pretty clear who has the baggage here.


52 thoughts on Shorter Dawn Eden: Chill out, ladies, you’ve got all the silly rights you need!

  1. What Dawn also conveniently ignores is that we are trying to be considered members of the human race, but that patriarchal, male-centered culture keeps denying us that by viewing us only in terms of sexual/reproductive usefulness.

  2. That should make for an amusing, if misguided and irrelevant, discussion. I’ll bring the wine, you bring the cheese (or whatever snack you prefer).

  3. You know, I view myself as just a member of the human race… which is why I oppose idiots who decide that just because someone has the wrong set of genitals, she must be weak or stupid or unimportant.

    As for “equality” and “civil rights,” I really like terms that address all of humanity, too. For example, “pro-choice,” which is for across-the-board bodily autonomy; it just happens that the greatest threat to bodily autonomy is female-specific. On the other hand, “pro-life” embraces not just all of humanity, but also a group of entities without personhood that are often parasitic on unwilling humans. She could just as well say she’s opposed to trampling cockroaches on pro-life grounds.

  4. >But there’s something vulgar about reducing one’s area of advocacy to a group of people who share a particular biological makeup.>

    “You’re the vulgarian, you fuck”

    –A Fish Called Wanda

  5. There’s something vulgar about discriminating against people who share a particular biological makeup, but hey she and her patriarchy of choice (the catholic church) don’t seem moved by that argument….

  6. It’s sad how easy she is to debunk. I guess all these arguments are fresh and new to her because she is a convert, but I had them pounded into my head through 13 years of Catholic schooling, and I was refuting them back then.

  7. On the other hand, “pro-life” embraces not just all of humanity, but also a group of entities without personhood that are often parasitic on unwilling humans. She could just as well say she’s opposed to trampling cockroaches on pro-life grounds.

    “Parasitic entities?”

    Cockroaches aren’t human, consistent pro-lifers argue against abortion on the grounds that feti are persons.

    /devil’s advocate

  8. evil_fizz:

    Not necessarily, unless they espouse libertarian beliefs and are pro-life.

    I personally think feti have some value, but not personhood, and the value of allowing women to decide whether they want to carry to the term (including other reproductive choices) is a greater value.

    In other words, I’m pro-choice, but I wanted to point out that no pro-lifer would argue in terms presented by Alon Levy. It is good to know what exactly one is up against.

    Also, the term parasite is clearly incorrect.

  9. To be a “feminist for life”, it would seem to me that one would have to support, generally, the rest of the feminist agenda, while having a disagreement regarding abortion. I am sure there are such women (because there certainly are people who have a strong moral objection to abortion but who are not anti-women), but I don’t think any of these supposed women’s groups, including FFL, the Independent Women’s Forum, Concerned Women for America, etc., actually represent that point of view.

    Rather, these groups represent a coopting of feminist rhetoric by conservatives who take regressive positions regarding women.

    The truth is, the best approach for my hypothetical pro-life feminist would be to just go ahead and join NOW, support Planned Parenthood, etc. Because in addition to supporting abortion rights, real feminist groups also support increasing access to contraception, greater empowerment for women, lifting women out of poverty, etc. And all these things reduce abortion rates. The policies supported by the feminist movement will save many more “lives” (including the supposed lives of fetuses) than the agenda of the organized right will.

  10. from Wikpedia:

    to parasitism, wherein one organism, usually physically smaller of the two (the parasite) benefits and the other (the host) is harmed.

    Thanks for the link Tuomas. Last I knew (having experienced three myself I know this quite personally), the zygote implants itself on the uterine wall and begins to suck nutrients from the host (the mother) in order to grow. This growing causes numerous physical changes, many of which are permanent, robs the host of vital nutrients, even blood supply (zygote is fed first) and can even cause death (ectoptic pregnancy for starters).

    Looks like a parasitic relationship to me.

  11. Actually Tuomas, parasite would be correct. Two entities are living off the same resources. It’s not symbiosis – the fetus is benefiting from the woman, but not the other way around; her benefit comes after the birth. Nor is it commensulism – the fetus is drawing its nutritional needs from the mother’s supply, and will damage the mother (pulling calcium from bones, for example) if she’s not taking in enough nutrition for both.

    Biologically, that’s parasitism. It’s our social distate for parasites that makes it unacceptable to say it. Nobody wants to classify a fetus with a tapeworm, but a loved and desired parasite, is still biologically a parasite.

  12. The truth is, the best approach for my hypothetical pro-life feminist would be to just go ahead and join NOW, support Planned Parenthood, etc. Because in addition to supporting abortion rights, real feminist groups also support increasing access to contraception, greater empowerment for women, lifting women out of poverty, etc. And all these things reduce abortion rates. The policies supported by the feminist movement will save many more “lives” (including the supposed lives of fetuses) than the agenda of the organized right will.

    Yup. Which would be why my passionately pro-life mother refuses to vote for any of the political candidates who oppose abortion, because their policies in all other respects are repugnant to her, and she knows damn well that gutting programs which help poor women get contraception, or give prenatal and post-natal care to poor pregnant women, are NOT going to lower the abortion rate.

    Interestingly enough, the lowest abortion rate in the entire world is in the Netherlands, where abortion is very accessible but birth control is free on the national health system. Second lowest is Germany, with very similar social attitudes and easy access to abortion. You want fewer abortions, the only way to do it properly is to hit the demand side rather than the supply side. If all you do is restrict the legal options of women who are already pregnant, you don’t actually lower the abortion rate, you simply drive it underground.

  13. Yes, it does. Parasites are phylogenetically unrelated.

    Pedantically, one could call the relationship between the fetus/zygote and the mother a quasi-parasitical relationship (or something), but feti are not parasites.

    But then, one might also have to call the elderly, the disabled etc. parasites on the society, and I don’t think you really want to go there. Lack of personhood, value of autonomy of women, and what really works are the tickets, not a false and dehumanizing talk about parasitical entities.

  14. It is easy to defeat straw men. To truly prove one’s point, one should seek out the best defenders and most logical arguments to defeat. Simply having a chorus of yes-men can make all around feel good, but does not prove your point. To prove you have the best argument you need to defeat the best thinkers and(if you really stand for truth) be ready to make concessions where you find flaws in your own arguments.

    I would submit that perhaps this Dawn is not the best defender of the basis on which the right-to-life position is based.

    One must understand the Christian basis on which people like Dawn base their arguments if one is to defeat them (or concede to them). For apologetics that explain where she is coming from I would recommend CS Lewis (of Narnia fame, but with many scholarly, adult works) and GK Chesterton (yes, he became a Catholic in his later life, but it effected little change in his writings) as the best defenders of Christian thinking that I know of. Plus, Chesterton is available free on the web. Just go to Wikipedia to find links.

    Frankly, I am not convinced by the opinions represented here because they fail to defeat the underpinning arguments that right-to-lifers espouse, and they are based on orthodox (small ‘o’) Christianity (also espoused by the Orthodox (aka Eastern Orthodox) Church.

  15. And here’s one of Dawn’s lovely minions:

    And Jill again, providing evidence that feminism is just about selfish, selfish, selfish women, and has nothing to offer men.

    Yes. Because feminism is about pleasing men.

  16. Yes, it does. Parasites are phylogenetically unrelated.
    Pedantically, one could call the relationship between the fetus/zygote and the mother a quasi-parasitical relationship (or something), but feti are not parasites

    The male anglerfish is generally referred to as a parasite of the female or as living parasitically upon the female, although they are the same species. I’d say it’s pedantic to object to “parasite” for a fetus on these grounds.

  17. I used to call my daughter the CLP (Cute Li’l Parasite) while she was in utero, because while she was a parasite I was happy to have living off my resources, she was a parasite all the same. A friend objected, so I checked my dictionary definition: it refers to a creature that lives on or in its host (check) consuming the host’s resources (check) while providing nothing in return (check). The biological definition may be more restricted for all I know (having studied no biology since age sixteen) but we don’t usually insist on using the technical meaning for words which have a slightly different meaning in common speech. (Incidentally, according to my dictionary, parasites were humans leeching from other humans before the term was applied to the animal world.)

    I agree that parasite has unpleasant connotations and that these connotations often put people’s backs up, but that’s a whole different argument.

  18. I’m just curious, reading the various debates on the site, when did ‘moral relativsm’ become a code word for seeing both sides and trying to make up your own decision?

  19. I took a look at her quotes about feminism, including the silly straw men (and women) and her linking back to here with the quote “Feminism is only for old, useless hags and silly little girls.” How cute. Really, this is the same old shopworn antifeminism that grew hokey 20 years ago. What decade is this woman living in, again?

  20. What’s so funny about the thread you linked to?

    Dawn Eden is infamous for banning anyone who disagrees with her, and claiming its because they were “rude”. Conviently, she always censures out the supposed rudeness. Her filter sometimes slips, too.

    So, “Phoenician in a time of Romans” got banned. Then I noticed that the ban had slipped, and started posting as Phlebas. I deliberately went out to try and make my posts non-personal while presenting the pro-choice case. This thread shows you how it goes – I presented a forceful case without being rude, Dawn’s bootlickers piled on top, I declined to swallow the bait, Dawn starts editing away arguments to try and weaken anyone she disagrees with, I continue to present the case, none of them were able to engage with the argument, and Dawn eventually banned me.

    This is the way the anti-choice side protects itself from the ravages of thought.

    However, the first time I broke out the Phlebas identity was a month or two beforehand, in this thread mentioned earlier. Notice the Phlebas post is layering on the sarcasm with a trowel.

    Amazingly, no-one at Dawn’s blog noticed. Amazingly, no-one drew a connection between some joker calling themself “Phoenician” and some joker calling themself “Phlebas” – even when the latter started following exactly the same train of logic that got the former banned the first time.

    NOT the world’s brightest lightbulbs.

  21. I’ve noticed that certain people who kiss her ugly butt 24/7 are allowed to say really offensive things, with only the occasional and highly apologetic edit, and will never get banned. But if you disagree with her, or present an opinion she doesn’t agree with (even if it’s not strictly anti-Christian teaching or anti-Catholic teaching), she uses the slightest excuse to ban you.

    It so undermines the her credibility and the credibility of anyone who agrees with her.

    Her blog, her kingdom, she gets to play God, I suppose, which is really very telling, given that she’s supposed to be all about submitting to The One True God, and all.

  22. I got their newsletter.

    They have no coherent policy on contraception – they don’t absolutely oppose it, but they’re *very* squicky and standoffish about endorsing it.

    And they have no answer as to how “more education” and “better self-esteem” is going to magically lift unwed mothers out of poverty, which is a sore point for me given that my rather-expensive college degree hasn’t gotten me a single well-paying job, and I can’t afford to buy a home for myself or go to the dentist let alone take care of kids – or where the money for finishing college is supposed to come from with the govt cutting funding right left and center. Nothing about what they’re *actually doing* to get women more choices, rather than talking endlessly about it in perky tones of voice and collecting money so that they can talk about it endlessly – and nary a word on what *real actions* they’re taking out in the world to get *men* and patriarchy-serving older *women* to STOP penalizing single mothers etc. Or any awareness that low self-esteem is *strongly* related to being broke and criticized and tossed out of your Christian college without a degree for being sinful, and telling pregnant teens “You go, girl! You deserve better!” without offering any actual help won’t do a *damn* thing. As far as I can tell, the local Catholic organization Birthright does more *real* charitable work for struggling mothers, in terms of giving them formula and food and baby clothes, than “Feminists for Life” has ever done.

    The only thing they actually bragged on accomplishing, in fact, during the time I subbed to them, was the ban on “partial-birth abortions”…the same one that the photo has been reproduced on so many blogs, with all the rich white males standing around beaming as the Preznit signs the law.

    They’re kind of the Kamen Foundation of the Prolife movement, really.

  23. From upstream:

    I’m rather surprised to see that so few people objected to this formulation.

    Parasitic relationships are predator-prey relationships. The parasite attacks its prey, to its prey’s detriment, in order to further its own interests. Many parasites kill their hosts.

    A fetus is in some ways analogous to a parasite, but analogies are not identities. Any reasonable person can immediately see that a baby growing within a woman’s body is different in kind from wasp larvae eating a paralysed caterpillar from within, or tapeworms residing within a mammal’s gut. Frankly, I find identifying the fetus with a parasite indicative of an unhealthy dissociation of the woman from her fetus, one contrary to the experiences of most women. I wouldn’t call a helpless person a parasite unless I really considered him an enemy of society, and I think it’s reasonable to ask that the fetus, even if you consider it a nonperson, not be called parasitic.

    Frankly, I am not convinced by the opinions represented here because they fail to defeat the underpinning arguments that right-to-lifers espouse, and they are based on orthodox (small ‘o’) Christianity (also espoused by the Orthodox (aka Eastern Orthodox) Church.

    The best argument that the right-to-life side has is gory photographs. It’s very tough to convince someone that a hacked-off arm belonged to a being that hadn’t achieved personhood. In fact, it’s notoriously hard to come up with a definition of personhood that includes the disabled, the comatose, those incapacitated by age or illness, etc., but which categorically excludes fetuses. This explains why secular liberals like Naomi Wolf or Nat Hentoff ‘crossed the picket line’ on fetal personhood (on their ways to opposing conclusions, of course.)

    In my experience, there are lots of secularists and progressives who are uncomfortable with what Wolf calls ‘the lexicon of dehumanization.’ Before I became religious, I was one of them. (Now, I’m a pro-life religious progressive, so there you go.)

  24. Oops: moderator, can you include this quote after the first line?

    On the other hand, “pro-life” embraces not just all of humanity, but also a group of entities without personhood that are often parasitic on unwilling humans.

  25. Dear Jill and most others here:

    It would appear that Dawn is not especially well liked on this site; her opinions, indeed, are mocked.

    What seems to be lacking, however, is substantive engagement.

    What appears most evident here is profanity (a substitute for real thought) and a fair amount of arrogant and adolescent posturing (again a handy way of avoiding actual conversation)

    Just an observation from a disinterested observer.

  26. I’ve also noticed FFL’s tendancy to sidestep any solid, coherent positions on birth control, adoption issues, and meaningful, productive solutions to specific problems. But that’s what happens when you’re trying to court two very different groups at the same time, and when you’re trying to be too many things to too many people.

    Their “feminism” is a thin disguise, IMO, and it appears that they’re very much the conservative, religious-right type of pro-lifers whose image they’re trying to avoid.

  27. Dilan Esper:

    there certainly are people who have a strong moral objection to abortion but who are not anti-women

    A nice thought, but objections to abortion are inherently anti-woman. There is no way to be opposed to abortion without saying “women shouldn’t have bodily autonomy.” Unless by “opposed to abortion” you mean “wants to minimize the number of medical procedures women have to go through because medical procedures are a pain,” but that’s the position taken by most people who are pro-choice. Anyway, when we’re talking moral objections, those are always, at root, objections to women having bodily autonomy.

  28. Parasitic relationships are predator-prey relationships. The parasite attacks its prey, to its prey’s detriment, in order to further its own interests. Many parasites kill their hosts.

    See note by Ledasmom on anglerfish above. Male anglerfish do not kill, nor usually substantively injure their host female, but are considered parasitic. Plus, it’s a bit disingenous to imply that fetuses never harm and/or kill their host mother. Preeclampsia, hemorrhage, pregnancy induced diabetes, hyeremesis – none of these are particularly rare, pregnancy-induced health and/or life threatening conditions.

    As to the “unhealthy dissassociation”, that would depend on a lot of things. Many women use the term without any negative meaning (see Nick Kiddle’s comment on the CLP). Others use it because they have or need dissassociation that is not necessarily unhealthy. If you cannot bear a child for whatever reason, a little dissassociation is probably a good thing. Unremmiting hostility to a fetus you intend to bear and raise is a bad thing. On the other hand, a little distance, even from a child you’re raising can be a boon. When my eldest son was sick, I was able to do a lot of necessary things my husband was not because I was able to distance myself somewhat from the pain I was causing my child, while he was not.

    Also – “parasite on society” is a metaphor. Referring to a fetus as a parasite is not metaphoric, it’s a biological reference. There’s a bit of a difference between using someone’s financial resources and time, and literally sucking the calcium from their teeth and bones, or causing them to bleed to death. The day my elderly parents lock onto my blood supply and start deriving their nutrition straight from my bloodstream is the day I will consider myself morally able to decide whether they should be allowed to live that way or not.

  29. Tapetum,

    From the Wikipedia article on parasitism:

    Parasitism is one version of symbiosis (“living together”), a phenomenon in which two organisms which are phylogenetically unrelated co-exist over a prolonged period of time, usually their entire life. The requirement for a prolonged interaction precludes predatory or episodic interactions (such as a mosquito feeding on a host), which are usually not seen as symbiotic relationships…. Especially in the field of medical parasitology, the term “parasite” has come to mean a eukaryotic pathogenic organism. Thus, protozoan and metazoan infectious agents are classified as parasites while bacteria and viruses are not.

    As you can see, while there are some parallels between parasitism and gestation, there are also many dissimilarities. In the medical sense, the fetus is not a parasite. Describing it as one is thus more a polemic statement than a scientific judgment. It begs the question, because impartial use of the evidence does not compel assent to the proposition that the fetus is a parasite. I hope I’m being clear here. That we can say in casual speech that a male anglerfish “lives like a parasite” on the female of the species is not to say that the male is a “parasite” in the scientific sense.

    Please note that a mother-to-be’s body cooperates with the human biological reproductive strategy by supporting the gestation of a fetus.

    Others use [the term parasitism] because they have or need dissassociation [sic] that is not necessarily unhealthy.

    Perhaps they do. However, it seems somewhat obtuse not to take notice of the enthusiasm, even pride, accompanying its use in this series of comments. You seem to think that disassociation is a healthy response to overwhelming emotions – let’s grant that arguendo. How is it that such overwhelming emotion is the normal state of commentors upon this post?

    There’s a bit of a difference between using someone’s financial resources and time, and literally sucking the calcium from their teeth and bones, or causing them to bleed to death.

    Do you feel that women in America are generally at risk of dying in childbirth? Female life expectancy in the USA is over 80 years, according to the CIA World Factbook, and the number of American women to die in childbirth, annually, is about 400. This suggests to me that American women have more to fear from Toyotas or hamburgers than from fetuses. Let’s not get carried away with ‘bleeding to death.’ Fetuses are not a leading cause of death in women.

    Hershele wrote:

    There is no way to be opposed to abortion without saying “women shouldn’t have bodily autonomy.”

    Sure there is: you say that a fetus’s right not to be killed trumps a woman’s right to bodily autonomy. At this point we can start talking about violinists.

  30. Cantemir – the actual death rate in the US from pregnancy is reasonably low. The number of women whose health is endangered or who were in danger of dying is considerably higher. Speaking as someone who damn near did bleed to death at the birth of my second child, I would say that it’s my call, not yours, and not the government’s, whether I’m willing to take that risk again. Also, pregnancy can cause premanent damage without endangering health – ranging from loss of teeth or osteoporosis (that calcium thing again), to hip damage from overstretched ligaments, to increased risk of skin cancer (If you’re wondering about that last, one of the rarer, but possible effects of pregnancy is the development of new moles. One of mine proved to be pre-cancerous. Several others are suspicious.)

    I, personally, would never qualify under a law permitting abortion for health risks. Yet both of my pregnancies had significant (and mostly different) health consequences. If the law says that I have to carry a pregnancy to term regardless of my opinion on the matter, then the law is putting the fetus’s life before mine. Explain to me how that counts as feminism.

  31. Tapetum:

    The number of women whose health is endangered or who were in danger of dying is considerably higher.

    This is not the place to definitively hash out theories of human rights. That’s not why I came here. I came here to see if Dawn was quoting fairly, which I don’t think that she was, and I stayed to challenge the language of parasitism, which I believe myself to have done satisfactorily, considering that you’ve chosen to drop the subject in favour of bodily autonomy arguments. They are germane to the blog post but not the part of the discussion that I brought up here.

    If the law says that I have to carry a pregnancy to term regardless of my opinion on the matter, then the law is putting the fetus’s life before mine. Explain to me how that counts as feminism.

    Dawn believes that killing a fetus is murder, and that any feminism that relies on encouraging women to act immorally can’t really be called ‘pro-woman.’ In my opinion, this is a bit of a stretch, because it is really a polemic challenge to the conventional usage of the word ‘feminism,’ but it is much less of a stretch than is calling the fetus a parasite.

  32. This is not the place to definitively hash out theories of human rights.

    Because in order to do that, you’d lose.

  33. re: Raincitygirl

    Second lowest is Germany, with very similar social attitudes and easy access to abortion.

    Germany is rather interesting, to my rather untutored self, because the laws actually look fairly strict on paper. The German constitution has expressly held fetal life to be a constitutional value; counseling is mandatory; only first-trimester abortions seem to be permitted ‘on demand.’ (See here, and here.)

    I’m honestly not sure what to take away from this–possibly optimism that a healthily liberal attitude towards contraception and sexuality can exist even within a constitutionally pro-life state? Pessimism that Europe isn’t all that feminist either?

  34. Oh, hey, golly gee gosh, people, did we so soon forget the rape camps in Serbia? The whole idea was that the Serbians, who were pretty much racially indistinct from the Bosnians yet culturally so, were going to “breed out” the Bosnians by raping and impregnating Bosnian women. In rape camps.

    It hasn’t been so very long at all. Have we forgotten this yet somehow managed to remember WWII?

    Tuomas, I know WWII is a particularly sensitive issue for the Finns, but surely you couldn’t have forgotten the far more recent example of rape as a war tactic right on your own continent.

  35. Cantemir – I would say rather, that it’s plain that you’re not going to be persuaded on the issue of parasitism. I maintain that it’s a pretty accurate image, but not one that I’m married to. Contrariwise the right to protect my life and health on my own terms is one I’ll fight for, and fight hard, and so not a topic I’m liable to drop under any circumstances. I’ve argued it repeatedly on Dawn’s blog, and will undoubtedly argue it again.

  36. Ahem, Zuzu, wrong thread.

    Oh, hey, golly gee gosh, people, did we so soon forget the rape camps in Serbia? The whole idea was that the Serbians, who were pretty much racially indistinct from the Bosnians yet culturally so, were going to “breed out” the Bosnians by raping and impregnating Bosnian women. In rape camps.

    If it is not pointed out, it doesn’t mean that it is forgotten.

    The example you point out is bit different rape as a tactic of war, as in your example, Serbs have essentially gained possession of the women, and thus can raise the babies as Serbs. In rape-run scenario, the babies might just as well be raised Albanians.

  37. What seems to be lacking, however, is substantive engagement.

    Dude, we’ve had substantive engagement. We got banned on her blog because of it.

    Now we’re just mocking her.

  38. In order to have substantive engagement, Dawn would have to offer some substance to engage.

    But no, she offers tired talking points and lies.

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