Shades of Montreal October 2, 2006 Jill A man walks into a school, orders the boys to leave, and then kills several female students. The story is still developing, but it’s certainly nothing new.
Montreal was my first thought, too. Not to mention that it took place in a conservative religious community. All kinds of tragic.
I just saw a bit of the press conference with the local cops on CNN. As far as anyone knows right now, he had no history or signs of any problems; he just dropped off his kids at school, left a suicide note, and then proceeded to kill a bunch of school girls. And the police are saying that the note implies that this was some sort of revenge killing, but for what, nobody can figure out. The entire thing is sickening.
WTF? It was bad enough when you had school shootings where a young man who was student there did the crime, even when sometimes they were gender-based (for example, thinking that because a girl wouldn’t go out with you means you can shoot her and her friends). But what the hell with this new trend of adult males coming into the school to rape and kill girls? I’m so sickened.
It’s also similar to the Colorado case last week, although that man didn’t kill the female students–he sexually molested them before killing one student as the police raided the school. But he also released all the male students (and the female students who weren’t his “type”).
“(and the female students who weren’t his “type”). ” Which was petite and blond. http://womensspace.wordpress.com/2006/09/28/male-terrorism-todays-news-colorado-gunman-wanted-the-girls/
Not to mention that it took place in a conservative religious community. The gunman wasn’t himself Amish, Auguste. He chose the school for its perceived lack of security: The gunman, who was not Amish, evidently chose the small, private Amish school in Lancaster County about 55 miles west of Philadelphia because the security would be lax, Commissioner Miller said.
I now know that, and I apologize, btw. It seemed evocative, but it was also facile. I seem to be doing that a lot lately.
This just makes me sick. If he hadn’t killed himself and assuming there’s such a law in Pennsylvania, would this qualify to be persecuted as a hate crime? Years ago, when I was in college and Jonesboro happened, my child development professor forwarded an e-mail from a mailing list she was on; the author remarked bitterly that after hearing the news, and seeing the way the media downplayed an apparent bias towards young women as the victims, she’d gone back upstairs and curled up with her partner. “It makes you wonder if men are even human,” she wrote, or words to that effect. I disagreed with her from that day to this, but sometimes, I do catch myself wondering.
The minute I saw this news on the BBC website, I came here, to see if I was the only one connecting it with Colorado and seeing an ominous trend. Had forgotten Montreal. everstar — I don’t think I’ve ever seen an anti-female hate crime receive the legal designation ‘hate crime’. It’s one of the reasons I have trouble with the whole ‘hate crime’ legal framework.
So CBS evening led with this story and obfuscated the genders of offender and victims. Then they gave their ‘free speech’ spot to a ranting conservative who lost a kid at Columbine. Hm, where’s the comparisons to Cndy Sheehan or something? Yep, abortion rights and evolution got his kid killed. Sorry, not especially coherent here.
I posted on this at my blog, not that I had much original to say. Everstar, as a man who does gender work, your question is one that haunts me all the time.
Cecily: really? It would seem to me to qualify since he, you know, targeted girls. But I take it that’s precisely your point. Me, I’m going to sit on the urge to go out and buy a bulletproof vest. (And am I the only one for whom the whole thing is somehow that much more horrible because it happened to the Amish?)
I’m glad someone else is talking about the whole gender dynamic here. I was so saddened to hear about both killings, and I wondered why no one was taking the time to talk about why these men singled out young girls. Any thoughts? What were those monsters thinking? Is the Amish school killing a copycat killing?
“It makes you wonder if men are even human,” she wrote, or words to that effect. I disagreed with her from that day to this, but sometimes, I do catch myself wondering. I definitely understand the sentiment engendered by the crimes we’ve seen in recent days that lead to such questions as this. When I put on my historian’s hat and ponder, based on my studies and experiences, what humans are capable of, I’d have to say that monstrous deeds like these are all too human. Which sounds rather banal, I know. But it’s a inescapable conclusion for me.
I don’t know if it was what we would classically call a “copycat killing.” I really do think that there are people who are just on the tipping point of giving into some really dark thoughts, and when they see media coverage that’s reinforcing what they’re thinking about, they snap. I think this guy got the green light from the coverage of the Colorado shootings.
I was wondering about that myself, Mighty P. The similiarity of modus operandi looks a little too convenient to be mere coincidence.
We’ve had two more school shootings here since the Polytechnique tragedy. The only similarities seem to be that all three shooters were male and 1st or 2nd generation immigrants.
“But what the hell with this new trend of adult males coming into the school to rape and kill girls? I’m so sickened.” The adult part of the trend isn’t new – it’s just been in remission. All the school shotting when I was a kid were done by adults. And yes, there were quite a few high profile ones – that’s why the police had even a clue of how to handle them when the rash of student ones began. And yeah – I had the same thought as well, Mighty Ponygirl and Linneaus.
(And am I the only one for whom the whole thing is somehow that much more horrible because it happened to the Amish?) I had the same thought, everstar. This is a community with such a low crime rate they don’t even have local police. They’re strict pacifists. I don’t know why that makes it worse in my mind (it’s not like the kid victims at other schools were engaging in risky behavior by attending school) but it does make it more shocking somehow.
If this guy had the slightest, most tenuous links to any anti-female group (MRA, anti-abortion, etc) could the families of the victims prosecute those groups under the anti-terrorism statutes? They are clearly giving aid and comfort to terrorists such as this hunk of sh!t*. *With apologies to sh!t, which is really quite useful and relatively benign stuff. Whereas this guy was clearly a worthless loser with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. When a white, heterosexual male starts to feel put upon you might as well shoot him then and there because this is how it ends up otherwise.
My two cents – more than simple “copycatting,” I think that some people (such as the gunmen in the Montreal, Colorado, and recent Pennsylvania incidents) that have been barely holding in their rage and violent impulses are feeling emboldened by several factors – the overall increase in publicized hate speech, the increased frustration over extremist religious conflict, eschatological discourse (all the “End Times” talk we’re seeing), and the recent legitimization of torture, among other things. I know this sounds facile, but I think we’re seeing a “tipping point” of irrational personal hatred going for broke, and unstable individuals believe their crazy gripes are achieving some sort of legitimacy. Frightening.
Dianne: When a white, heterosexual male starts to feel put upon you might as well shoot him then and there because this is how it ends up otherwise. Um, I’m white, heterosexual and feel put upon. Namely, by you. I have to warn you, though, I’m apt to shoot back. 🙂 Btw, as to that white part: Jill links to a site that charmingly is called “Gendercide”: Here are some relevant quotes as to the whiteness or lack of same of the 1989 massacre at the Polytechnique in Montreal: …Marc Lépine, a 25-year-old Quebecker and child-abuse survivor who,… …. In the suicide note he would leave on his body, Lépine provided some insights into the virulent mindset that fuelled his rage against women and feminists:… … n the wake of the horrific murders, Quebeckers and Canadians — along with many others around the world — rallied to commemorate the victims and denounce the anti-feminist wrath of their attacker. … if Lépine had sought to terrorize Canadian women into staying put in their traditional roles, his rampage may have had the opposite effect. Between 1989 and 1999, the proportion of women enrolled in Canadian engineering faculties rose from 13 to 19 percent. And in absolute numbers, it more than doubled, to nearly 9,000. I’ll wager that a lot of readers of this fine blog, Dianne here very much included, probably now think “Yep, isn’t that just like a white guy?” They would be wrong, though. Mark Lapin’s birthname was Gamil Gharbi: Born Gamil Gharbi, the son of Algerian immigrant Liess Gharbi and Canadian Monique Lépine, he grew up in a poor and dysfunctional household in Montreal. His father was a violent alcoholic who brutalized his family; he and Lépine were divorced in 1976. When Gamil was 13, he changed his name out of resentment towards Gharbi. As a teenager, Lépine had difficulty establishing and maintaining relationships with females and over time began to blame feminism for his problems to the point that he developed a pathological hatred of women…. Terrible, but nothing to do with white, heterosexual males. The Canadian press declined to report that Marc Lapine wasn’t your typical Catholic Quebecker, and white Canadian males in general got the blame, for it seemed as if one of them had commited the massacre. I’m not saying that it is typical for Muslim men either, but you’d be surprised how many school shooters aren’t white, heterosexual males, if skin color and sexual orientation were actually reported with any other perps than white males. There also a certain reluctance to count crimes done by non-white males as hate crimes, so that certain activists can go around claiming that “most hate crimes are commited by white heterosexual males”, but never mind. everstar: …“It makes you wonder if men are even human,” she wrote, or words to that effect. I disagreed with her from that day to this, but sometimes, I do catch myself wondering…. How many men actually do that kind of thing? A few out of millions, that’s how many. No more typical for men than mothers killing their children are typical for women.
That’s all well and good, Martin, but it doesn’t explain away Lepine’s targeting of women and his specifically anti-feminist hatred.
Oh, christ, do you really want to defend the honor of poor defamed white guys? Let’s stop talking about the dead girls so some white guy can defend his skin color and his gender from disgrace—by not doing a damned thing to men who rape and kill women and girls. Yep, that’s what you’re going to put that long comment toward.
MartinG said: How many men actually do that kind of thing? A few out of millions, that’s how many. No more typical for men than mothers killing their children are typical for women. Yes, I’m aware of that. And I did say I disagreed with her. At the time, in fact, it upset me quite a bit, for reasons into which I will not go. Experience has taught me to agree with Linnaeus: people, both men and women, are capable of truly awful, monstrous things. And they are also capable of amazing, wonderful things. But that’s what I think.
Lepine is an excellent example of what happens when an abusive background (that favors the likelihood of the abused becoming an abuser in his turn) combines with a sociopolitical milieu which makes certain demographics more acceptable targets/scapegoats than others. No, most people don’t go as far as Lepine; but it’s not an accident that he “vented” in the way that he did, either. Nothing is an accident.
>I know this sounds facile, but I think we’re seeing a “tipping point” of irrational personal hatred going for broke, and unstable individuals believe their crazy gripes are achieving some sort of legitimacy. Frightening.> i think that’s been going on for quite a while, actually.
Martin: Let me give you a little hint about men who whine about how put upon they are and how their failures are all the fault of feminists who oppress them: They’re full of santorum. There is no such thing as a culture in which there is sexism against men. In the US and Canada, among other places, there is considerable sexism, concious and unconcious, in men’s favor*. If a man fails to get a job or a place in an academic institution as that piece of Canadian crap did, it is because he is too stupid or incompetent to get the job or position. MUCH too stupid or incompetent given that the considerable prejudice in his favor makes him look far better to employers than he really is. If he fails to get the divorce settlement he wants, it is because either his case was so totally lousy that it couldn’t be supported (see the guy who blew up the building in NYC recently) or he was too lazy to hire a mildly competent lawyer. I included the white and het qualifications because there is a considerable amount of racism and homophobia in the world still and they might be enough to cause a failure through no fault of the man’s. And the Montreal case aside, most serial killers are white and virtually all are men. But a white, het man who fails? It’s simply because he wasn’t good enough. He’s had every advantage and failed. *I warn you: Challange me on this statement and I will cite sources. Lots of peer reviewed sources.
How many men actually do that kind of thing? How many men rape? One study of college students showed that over 1/3 of men acknowledged that they would rape a woman if they thought they could get away with it. How many men abuse their partners or children? What percentage of child molesters are men? How many men commit murders? Not that these things are innate to men any more than the supposed math advantage* is innate to men. But in a society where men are brought up to believe that they have a right to control the bodies of women they “own” (ie to force their children or spouse to bear children, to rape their spouse as long as direct violence was not involved, etc) then these sorts of incidents will continue. And as long as there is sexism in favor of men, men who whine about how their failures are women’s fault are below contempt. *Said proported advantage is exaggerated when women are reminded of their gender just before testing and disappears when they are reminded of their own intelligence instead. So much for innate male abilities.
And a little more of the story has come out. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061003/ap_on_re_us/amish_school_shooting;_ylt=Ag_wm_YCtYklIJKlkhUZoNqs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-
When I put on my historian’s hat and ponder, based on my studies and experiences, what humans are capable of, I’d have to say that monstrous deeds like these are all too human. Which causes me to beg the question – Is human worth being? Not that I could change that… but, still the question lingers.
I heard a news report this morning on the radio that said something along the lines of “he separated the students and only kept girls in the classroom, but the police said his attack was not based on the gender of the victims.” Here is another situation where feminists or people who think this was motivated by hate for girls/women are going to be told they’re overreacting, but I think it’s because most people don’t understand that this is the type of thing that contributes to “rape culture.” If they admitted the attack was based on the sex of the children, it would be an acknowledgement that females are attacked for being female, or the corollary, that males are not attacked for being male. By denying it, they promote the idea that victims are or should be female. It’s not that men choose women as targets; girls just happen to be victims more often than boys- girls are the “victim class”.
Everstar @ 8 Pennsylvania’s hate crime and discrimination laws are among the best in this country. They include actual or perceived race, class, ancestry, national origin, sex, religion, disability, relationship to persons with disability(ies), sexual orientation and gender identity, and more. The brilliant A. Van Dyk, who has taken on the KKK and other organized hate groups, gives speeches and workshops on the topic. To any lurking MRAs: There are multiple successfully prosecuted cases of discrimination/hate crimes on the basis of sex with male victims. That does nothing to change the fact that the overwhelming majority of sex-based hate crimes and discrimination have female victims. This serial murder has the hallmarks of a hate crime. The only link between the victims and whatever revenge the murderer was seeking is his bias against them as a class, based on a protected characteristic.
Bach-us: To any lurking MRAs: There are multiple successfully prosecuted cases of discrimination/hate crimes on the basis of sex with male victims. That does nothing to change the fact that the overwhelming majority of sex-based hate crimes and discrimination have female victims. I have been looking for such cases of gender-based hate crimes prosecution for a discussion I am having…if you have any links or Googlable case names, I would really appreciate it. Thanks!
Which causes me to beg the question – Is human worth being? Not that I could change that… but, still the question lingers. Well, the other half of my observation that I didn’t say, but that everstar said, is that humans are capable of wonderful deeds as well. So, in short, I’d say the answer is yes. Back to your regularly scheduled thread.
Martin – I’m willing to bet that most poor, put-upon heterosexual white males don’t have to worry about crap like this. Or this. Or constantly have it shoved in their faces that they’re inherently ugly or stupid. Now I’m not saying that straight white men don’t have their own things to deal with – say, being a member of a minority religion (or even a disadvantaged white ethnic group like Catholics in Northern Ireland), being poor, suffering from disability or mental illness, etcetera. I’m a member of a nonwhite ethnic group that has a history of oppressing other nonwhite groups – so I understand to a certain degree “racial guilt”: that I have done nothing wrong but millions of people hate my ethnic group because of what they have done. However, I would never the injustices and atrocities of the past in order to make myself feel good. I also have no illusions that nonwhite men are any less capable of repulsive sexism compared to white men. However, ginmar and Dianne basically speak for me on the rest of it.
Dianne, I was wondering about this statement: If a man fails to get a job or a place in an academic institution as that piece of Canadian crap did, it is because he is too stupid or incompetent to get the job or position. I gotta ask, is this a generalization, or do you believe that no man EVER has failed to get a job because he’s a man and there was a comepetent woman who applied for the job?
zuzu: That’s all well and good, Martin, but it doesn’t explain away Lepine’s targeting of women and his specifically anti-feminist hatred. Some men are just like that, I’m afraid, but he had such a lot of issues that it doesn’t say anything about men in general. ginmar: Oh, christ Ahura Mazda 🙂 do you really want to defend the honor of poor defamed white guys? Let’s stop talking about the dead girls so some white guy can defend his skin color and his gender from disgrace—by not doing a damned thing to men who rape and kill women and girls. Yep, that’s what you’re going to put that long comment toward. How did you come up with that? I didn’t mention rape in this context because the issue hadn’t come up before. And I do think that rape is inexcusable, and should be punished as harshly as possible. Even so, what should I personally “do to men who rape and kill women and girls”? Due process and rule of law are the best countermeasure that there is, imperfect as they be. Dianne: How many men rape? One study of college students showed that over 1/3 of men acknowledged that they would rape a woman if they thought they could get away with it. How many men abuse their partners or children? What percentage of child molesters are men? How many men commit murders? That study is highly suspect. That result sounds altogether to much like the polls with 1/3 of respondends claiming that the US Government was behind 911.
everstar Yes, I’m aware of that. And I did say I disagreed with her. At the time, in fact, it upset me quite a bit, for reasons into which I will not go. Yes, sorry.
is this a generalization, or do you believe that no man EVER has failed to get a job because he’s a man and there was a comepetent woman who applied for the job? A generalization, possibly an overgeneralization. However, I can’t think of even an anecdotal example of a situation in which of two candidates for a job with equal qualifications but different genders, the woman was chosen rather than the man. Multiple studies have demonstrated that, indeed, women’s qualifications are downgraded by those evaluating them. So basically a woman really does have to be twice as good as a man to be thought half as good. And if she is, the man involved will whine about how HE is being discriminated against. Schiesskopfe.
A few links for Martin: http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/Home.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=RecordDetails&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ383505&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=eric_accno&objectId=0900000b80063e17 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1448695&dopt=Citation http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=2370674&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum No doubt the authors of these and the other 300+ peer reviewed articles that I didn’t include are all faking their evidence because we all know that men are saints who would never do anything wrong and if they force women to have sex it is just to punish those evil whores, right? Well, that’s the attitude of a large minority to majority* of young men, apparently. *Depending on the particular group studied.
Even so, what should I personally “do to men who rape and kill women and girls”? Due process and rule of law are the best countermeasure that there is, imperfect as they be. Just in case this is a real question, yes, there are things you can do and no, I’m not suggesting lynching. Stop making excuses for men who act violently. Support organizations that help women who are victims of violence. Don’t blame the victims. Work against laws that lead men to believe that they have a right to control women’s bodies (ie anti-abortion and anti-contraception laws, laws that allow coercive rape within marriage, etc.) Think about your prejudices and be ready to deal with them instead of denying them. You probably have some unconcious sexism. Who, male or female, can avoid it in this culture? So look at it, admit it, deal with the consequences. Make a concious effort to think about gender issues.
Dianne, thanks for clearing that up. I can think of a couple of anecdotal examples myself. However, I agree with you (and the studies) that by and large the women’s skills are undervalued.