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Jesus Camp: A Review

As promised, I saw Jesus Camp yesterday, and now I have thoughts. I’ll warn you beforehand, though, that I’ll probably get into details about particular scenes, and if you feel like that will spoil the movie for you, then stop reading now.

Although it terrified me, I liked it. I thought it was well done, and sympathetic to its subjects. The film focuses on one Pentecostal parish, highlighting the children’s minister and a few of the kids. The minister runs a children’s Bible camp every summer in North Dakota, and the filmmakers head out there and document what goes down.

A primary theme of the movie is the combat mentality of the Christians featured in the film. Words like “battle,” “warrior,” “war,” “training,” “Christian soldier” and “enemy” are tossed around regularly. The children’s pastor repeatedly references the idea that Christians are at war against “the enemy” (Islam, secularism, the devil), and the kids are flat-out told that they’re being “trained.” There’s a lot of emphasis on obedience — in one scene, a little girl hands out an Evangelical pamphlet to a woman in a bowling ally, because she felt like God was telling her to do it, and one of the youth pastors congratulates her by saying, “Way to be obedient!”

But perhaps the strangest part of the movie was the deep cognitive dissonance displayed by the Christian adults. Islam is positioned one “enemy” early-on, and the youth pastor (Becky Fischer) talks about how “the enemy” is focusing on the children — in Palestine, she argues, kids are taught from the time they’re young that they’re part of an army, they’re given hand gernades and guns, and it’s no wonder that they’re willing to lay down their lives for their beliefs. This, the viewer quickly assumes, is a bad thing. Then she follows up by saying that Christians need to do the same thing, and that she wants little Christian soldiers who are willing to lay down their lives for Christ. The difference between Christians and radical Muslims, she says, is that Christians have The Truth.

And these sorts of logical disjuncts weren’t just limited to the church leaders. The film focuses on three kids — Levi, Rachael and Tory, who are all about 10 years old, and all of whom you walk out of the theater feeling incredibly sorry for. There’s a scene in Levi’s house where he’s playing a Creationism video game which “teaches” him that the world was created 6,000 years ago by God, and that humans didn’t come from “a bunch of goo — yuck!” He goes from playing the game to the classroom — his kitchen table, with his mom. And they’re learning about “science” from a Creationist text book. The most striking thing is how highly politicized their conversation is. The mom asks a question from the book, which is something along the lines of, “Politicians use the fact that summers are getting warmer as evidence of global warming. What is wrong with this line of reasoning?” Levi’s answer is that summers have only gotten something like 0.6 degrees warmer, and that’s not a big deal at all. They also talk about evolution, and the lesson essentially comes down to the idea that Creationism is the only possible explanation for the earth. The funny thing about science, his mom tells him, is that it never actually proves anything. It just has these theories and guesses, but it can never tell you anything for sure. Since Christians have absolute truth, why trust science?

The mother asked Levi, “How would you feel if you went to a school where they told you that Creationism was stupid, and you’re stupid if you believe in it?” Levi looked a little shocked, and said he wouldn’t like that at all. Then she asked him how he’d feel if his school told him that evolution was stupid, and you’re stupid if you believe in it — Levi laughed, and said that would be ok. His mom laughed and agreed.

The scene ends with Levi’s brother announcing that he’s going to write his paper on why Galileo should have given up science and followed Christ.

The sermons given at camp are also highly politicized. At one point in the film, a church leader brings out a cardboard cut-out of George W. Bush, and all the campers pray over him and praise him for surrounding himself with Godly people. An anti-choice activist is invited in, and he passes around plastic fetus models, which all look exactly like curled-up babies in varying sizes. He announces that one of the models, which is about 2 inches long and looks exactly like a baby, is an exact model of a fetus at 7 weeks old. The kids touch them and look sad. The man announces that God knew each of them before they were born, and wrote the books of their lives before their birth. He further says that 1/3 more of their friends should be here today, but they were killed before they were born and so they couldn’t come. Isn’t that sad? Then they pray to end abortion in America, something he says has been going on since 1973 — which is interestingly revisionist, and I suppose means that abortion before Roe doesn’t matter. He gives them pro-life bracelets, and plasters their mouths shut with red tape with the word “LIFE” written across it. Why they’re having their mouths taped shut in Church, where it isn’t exactly a protest, isn’t clear. Everyone prays, and the kids cry. There’s lots of crying in this movie.

There isn’t much talk about what it actually means to be a good person, or what Jesus said beyond “follow me.” There aren’t any volunteer efforts or discussions about community service or helping others. There’s lots of guilting the kids for being “bad” — telling ghost stories, reading Harry Potter, or talking dirty — and the praise for being “good” is focused on their obedience, not on any actual good acts. This version of Christianity is clearly about war, not peace or kindness or helping others. This point was driven home in this interview with the filmmakers and the children’s pastor, in which the pastor says, “We adhere to that scripture. So it has nothing to do with your works. You can sing in the choir, give all your money to charity, give your body to be burned for the saving of a poor orphan child in Afghanistan, but if you don’t name Jesus Christ as the lord of your life, that’s the deciding factor of where’s your going to spend eternity.”

And that certainly comes through in their acts, or lack thereof.

The filmmakers emphasize the fact that these people feel that they’re at war, and that they aren’t going to stop until they win. And it’s not about making the world a better place, or helping people out, it’s simply about acquiring more souls for Jesus and blindly following the word of the Bible — or rather, selected words of the Bible. The kids, for them, are footsoldiers for their movement to “take America back” for Christ. And the kids speak about their beliefs like miniature adults — they don’t sound like kids when they’re talking about God, they sound like they’re parroting things that they’ve heard grown-ups. Levi, for example, talks about how he was five years old when he “got saved,” and he found Jesus because he just felt like there had to be more to life. At five. The filmmakers follow that with a statistic that about half of Evangelical Christians are “born again” before age 13.

I hesitate to use the word “brainwashing” because I’m not sure that’s what this is, but it’s certainly disturbing. The kids are brought up being told that their generation is absolutely key in Jesus’s return, and they seem to think that He will come back in their lifetime. There’s an incredible narcissism in all of it, which is understandable in the kids, but is more disturbing when it comes from the adults. It’s a nice idea that Jesus cares about you specifically, and that you’re more special than the other kids at school because you know the Lord in a way that they don’t. That’s an acceptable belief for a ten-year-old, but when you hear 40-year-olds saying it, it’s a little more questionable. And when the adults start to compete with the kids for God’s blessings, it’s even more disturbing. There’s a scene with a famous Colorado Springs Evangelical preacher with deep political connections (he meets with George W. Bush every Monday) speaking with Levi. Levi tells the preacher that he wants to be a preacher too, and that he already gives sermons at his church, and people seem to listen. The adult preacher asks Levi if he thinks it’s his kid cuteness that makes people listen, or his content. Levi says he doesn’t know, and the preacher responds that he should milk his kid cuteness for as long as possible, and when he gets to the point where he can’t milk it anymore, he’ll hopefully have some content to what he says. The message is clear: You’re just a silly little kid with nothing to say, and don’t you dare try and creep into my terrority and challenge me. God loves me best, so step off, rugrat.

To compound just how disturbing the film is, several people in the film talk about how this is a great time to be a Christian — the best they’ve encountered in their lifetimes. George W. Bush is in power, and Evangelism is being spread world-wide. It’s socially accepted in unprecedented ways. They have an ear in the White House, and are seeing their religious beliefs being legislated across the country.

The film certainly had its weak points — I wasn’t a big fan of the liberal radio commentator, whose statements were interspersed throughout the documentary. But it was effective at focusing on a few basic things, and humanizing its subjects. I walked out deeply disturbed, but also feeling genuinely sorry for the kids in the film. It was clear that they’re taking the “culture wars” seriously, and that their culture of blind obedience to authority, war for Jesus, and little focus on actual goodness is being trumpeted across the nation. And why shouldn’t it work? It’s easy enough. Just accept Jesus into your heart, and nothing else is really required of you, except judgment of others who haven’t found Him yet, and attempts to make those other people see the Truth. You certainly don’t have to pursue anything intellectual — a cornerstone of the movement is that nothing is true except God, science is a joke, and intellectualism is a silly pursuit. And these people have a whole lot of pull in American politics.

The big unanswered question, of course, is how you shift the beliefs of people who don’t believe in reason or facts or science or physical proof, and for whom any argument can be trumped by simply stating, “But that’s not what the Bible says.”

The kids in the film are sort of a sad bunch. They’re all cute and sweet, and you certainly feel for them, but it’s relatively clear that they’re a little socially off, and Christian camp is very much a crutch for them. One of the more passionately religious girls, Rachael, is always by herself, even at camp. She mentions being teased at school, but says she doesn’t care because she’s a Christian, and what God thinks of her is what really matters. Christianity, for a lot of these kids, seems like a coping mechanism and a way for them to fit in socially, when they’re usually shy or awkward at school. They’re desperate to please adults, molding themselves into good little obedient soldiers and crying rivers when Pastor Becky guilts them in her sermons. There’s a scene in which one boy admits that he sometimes doubts his belief in God, and he absolutely bawls about it.

I hope that some of the kids in the film are able to escape it, but I have my doubts. There’s a great scene at the end where one of the girls, Rachael, is in Washington D.C. and approaches a group of three older black men to spread God’s word. She asks them, “When you die, where do you think you’ll go?” They respond, “Heaven.” She’s thrown off and says, “…are you sure?” “Pretty sure,” they respond. “Oh… ok,” she says, and retreats, confused. When she’s a few yards away from them she turns to her companion and says, “I think they were Muslims.”

These kids are growing up thoroughly insulated and under-educated. And yet they’re being bred to strive for powerful positions in government, and not rest until their religious beliefs are the ruling laws of our country. They’re being trained, and aren’t afraid to call themselves soldiers and warriors for their cause. And if there’s one thing that Jesus Camp drives home, it’s the idea that we should not continue to underestimate them.

Has anyone else seen it? Thoughts?


43 thoughts on Jesus Camp: A Review

  1. The big unanswered question, of course, is how you shift the beliefs of people who don’t believe in reason or facts or science or physical proof, and for whom any argument can be trumped by simply stating, “But that’s not what the Bible says.”

    My guess would be to have them actually read the bible they’re supposed be following. Because that is a book that contradicts itself all over the place (but it is an entertaining read). It won’t work on everyone, particularly the hardcore, but a few will be swayed by it. It’s really sad when kids are treated to this kind of indoctrination, though. Kids come up with all kinds of ways to explain the things they see and they’ll believe anything that will help them make sense of the world. It’s kind of like those two little blond white supremacist little girl singers. I feel sorry for them because they just don’t know (and haven’t been taught) any better, but I feel nothing but contempt for their parents for encouraging and allowing that sort of thing.

    There’s a great scene at the end where one of the girls, Rachael, is in Washington D.C. and approaches a group of three older black men to spread God’s word. She asks them, “When you die, where do you think you’ll go?” They respond, “Heaven.” She’s thrown off and says, “…are you sure?” “Pretty sure,” they respond. “Oh… ok,” she says, and retreats, confused. When she’s a few yards away from them she turns to her companion and says, “I think they were Muslims.”

    I haven’t seen it yet (and probably won’t until it gets to video), but that sounds like a very funny scene.

  2. The scene ends with Levi’s brother announcing that he’s going to write his paper on why Galileo should have given up science and followed Christ.

    Because of what I study, I took note of this line. I suspect this young man hasn’t – and may never – read what Galileo had to say about his science, but it should be pointed out that Galileo considered himself a good Christian throughout his ordeal (though I suspect his being a Catholic would be problematic for these folks). Indeed, Galileo argued in Letter To The Grand Duchess Cristina why he thought his science was perfectly compatible with Christianity, and even cites such authorities as Augustine in making his argument.

    I hope that some of the kids in the film are able to escape it, but I have my doubts. There’s a great scene at the end where one of the girls, Rachael, is in Washington D.C. and approaches a group of three older black men to spread God’s word. She asks them, “When you die, where do you think you’ll go?” They respond, “Heaven.” She’s thrown off and says, “…are you sure?” “Pretty sure,” they respond. “Oh… ok,” she says, and retreats, confused. When she’s a few yards away from them she turns to her companion and says, “I think they were Muslims.”

    Granted, I don’t know the context of this scene, but this got me wondering about the racial aspects of this movement. From this line, it seems that it hasn’t occurred to Rachael that black Americans can be – and usually are – Christians. By the same token, perhaps Rachael doesn’t know that not all Muslims are Arabs or black.

  3. I hesitate to use the word “brainwashing” because I’m not sure that’s what this is, but it’s certainly disturbing

    It sounds like brainwashing to me. Why the reluctance? Or is there something you expect in brainwashing that you didn’t see?

  4. Oh, it’s brainwashing. I grew up with this same sort of thing, albeit of the Southern Baptist variety. Brainwashing is probably too kind a word for it.

    The good news is, most of these kids will, in fact, grow out of it. If they manage to get out into the world even a little bit. If they manage to go to college not run by the church. And they will be the most vocal opponents of the church, too. So, that’s the good news.

    The bad news is not all of those kids will grow out if it. Instead, they will grow up to be just like Pastor Becky and the other adults in the film. Which is very sad for them, and really annoying to the rest of us.

  5. Given that we have freedom of religion in this country, they can certainly teach their children what they want, but don’t think that they would not indoctrinate every child if given the means and power.

    That is frankly scarier than what the movie lays out. If the Pastor Becky’s and other adults like her don’t get that power, then they are preparing their children to take it.

  6. “We adhere to that scripture. So it has nothing to do with your works. You can sing in the choir, give all your money to charity, give your body to be burned for the saving of a poor orphan child in Afghanistan, but if you don’t name Jesus Christ as the lord of your life, that’s the deciding factor of where’s your going to spend eternity.”

    So presumably, the inverse is true? You can knock over liquor stores, beat up old ladies, rape children, and shoot people who annoy you, just to watch them die, but if you name Jesus Christ as the lord of your life, you spend eternity in heaven?

    Really? If this is the case, I think I’d rather go to hell.

  7. I agree with Zan. A lot of these kids will grow out of it once they get to college. I know that I was broken of it because I just couldn’t shake the feeling that evolution was real. If it could be proven on a small scale with finches and my church leaders were all in agreement that adaptation occured (just not evolution, wtf), then why didn’t lots and lots of adaptations equal evolution?

    And yeah, a lot of them will likely be very outspoken against the same environment they were raised in, just like so many fundamentalists are outspoken against their pasts as non-fundies.

    Did the movie cover attitudes about sending these kids to college? I’m curious to know whether the camp stressed education for all, only males, or none.

  8. Really? If this is the case, I think I’d rather go to hell

    I’ve always been of the opinion that Heaven and Hell must get REALLY BORING afterwhile… I mean, it’s ETERNITY in the SAME GDM PLACE for crying out loud!!!

    Heaven… oooh, singing, flitting about, perfection… um… bored.
    Hell…. ouch, scream, pain, torment, overcrowding… um… bored.

  9. I’ve always been of the opinion that Heaven and Hell must get REALLY BORING afterwhile… I mean, it’s ETERNITY in the SAME GDM PLACE for crying out loud!!!

    Heaven… oooh, singing, flitting about, perfection… um… bored.
    Hell…. ouch, scream, pain, torment, overcrowding… um… bored.

    This is completely off topic, but there is a really funny Black Adder episode where Edmund is made the archbishop of Canterbury and is trying to convince a landowner to leave his money to the king instead of the church. His argument is along the lines of that guy would find heaven really boring, what with all the harps and singing and all, but hell is filled with people who love to rape and pillage and so would be fun for him.

  10. The mention of the anti-choice sermon reminded me of a video I watched in Critical Catholic Detention (religious ed) in sophomore year that made me cry. It was about abstinence, and even though I didn’t really believe in what Church taught and hadn’t for a long time, I cried because what I did believe was that God existed, and maybe even did all the things they talked about in Church, but not for me, because I was somehow a Bad Person. And so I always wavered between being “extra-good”, and when that didn’t work, I usually decided I wouldn’t believe in God, but the guilt was always there.

  11. Gordon K., regarding your question about this quote:

    This point was driven home in this interview with the filmmakers and the children’s pastor, in which the pastor says, “We adhere to that scripture. So it has nothing to do with your works. You can sing in the choir, give all your money to charity, give your body to be burned for the saving of a poor orphan child in Afghanistan, but if you don’t name Jesus Christ as the lord of your life, that’s the deciding factor of where’s your going to spend eternity.”

    It’s an echo of 1 Corinthians 13:3:

    And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

    The usage is fascinating. In the original text Paul is exalting agape, translated as charity, love, or brotherly love; the pastor is replacing it with adherence to Christianity. Not that Paul hasn’t said something similar elsewhere, but it makes the meaning very different.

  12. So presumably, the inverse is true? You can knock over liquor stores, beat up old ladies, rape children, and shoot people who annoy you, just to watch them die, but if you name Jesus Christ as the lord of your life, you spend eternity in heaven?

    Really? If this is the case, I think I’d rather go to hell.

    Norah, that thought has gone through my mind many times when I’ve thought about the emphasis some evangelicals put on being saved. I understand the point about asking for God’s forgiveness, but it seems to me that there’s a streak of antinomianism in the “saving” experience.

  13. I haven’t seen it, but when watching the ads I was surprised that the culture seemed to be remarkably free of misogyny (or at least not to the level that much of their ilk engage in) For example, the leader is female, there doesn’t seem to be any gender segregation or expectations of roles, that kind of thing. And there were also many more POC at the camp than I would have expected, too.

    Since you don’t really mention either in this post, Jill, was there any slant on women or people of color in the film that you could see?

  14. As I said in the other thread, I wish there had been less axe-grinding. The radio guy was the worst of it, but there was other stuff, like the bit with the pastor in her car, with the sly directorial jabs at SUV-driving, strip-mall loving middle america.

    Similarly–I wish there had been more on the homeschooling, about why the parents felt they had to pull their kids out. It actually came across as much more ambiguous to me … perhaps I’m remembering wrong, but I thought when Levi said that he’d like it if he went to a school where evolution was called stupid, his mother said something like “well, that’s what your father would say” and then the camera cut away to a different scene. Which I found frustrating, because it actually seemed to me like she might have been about to say something much more tolerant, but now we can’t know.

    Sad and frightening, regardless.

  15. So presumably, the inverse is true? You can knock over liquor stores, beat up old ladies, rape children, and shoot people who annoy you, just to watch them die, but if you name Jesus Christ as the lord of your life, you spend eternity in heaven?

    Yes, TOTALLY, but: you have to belong to THEIR specific church. Every little Protestant offshoot considers themselves the ONE true church, to the point of absurdity. There are some who would say that before you go to Heaven you would need to REPENT doing these deeds; you don’t have to make amends or anything, though.

    Strangely, this crowd is very into law and order, and punishment for criminals, and think death is too good for most of them. Again, they see “criminals” as being people OUTSIDE their church. (And race, usually.)

    From my vantage point, it seems to me that all their stances are coming ffrom a place of Overwhelming Fear. Of what I am not sure.

    One hopeful thing is that kids are pretty good at knowing when adults are liars and fakes, and knowing when things are “creepy”. If the kids are lucky enough to experience other social realities, lots of times they opt to get away from the creepy atmosphere. Not to mention that, after praying to Jesus to “come into your heart” a billion times, and never actually experiencing anything, teenagers can get mighty distrustful. I know several people who abandoned the Southern Baptist lifestyle, and most of them can’t tolerate Christianity in any way.

  16. Every little Protestant offshoot considers themselves the ONE true church, to the point of absurdity.

    Not true.

    Many little Protestant offshoots consider themselves the ONE true chruch, but not all of them.

  17. I hesitate to use the word “brainwashing”…

    But it is, at least that’s how it feels after you get out.

    My parents are “Good Christians”, and I spent two weeks out of every summer from age 5 to age 14 at a christian camp similar to the one you’re describing (I haven’t seen the film yet). It’s very much like being trained for an army, I imagine, but with catchier tunes.
    I’ve broken away from it now, but it wasn’t easy (thank you, bible belt).

  18. “We adhere to that scripture. So it has nothing to do with your works. You can sing in the choir, give all your money to charity, give your body to be burned for the saving of a poor orphan child in Afghanistan, but if you don’t name Jesus Christ as the lord of your life, that’s the deciding factor of where’s your going to spend eternity.”

    So presumably, the inverse is true? You can knock over liquor stores, beat up old ladies, rape children, and shoot people who annoy you, just to watch them die, but if you name Jesus Christ as the lord of your life, you spend eternity in heaven?

    Really? If this is the case, I think I’d rather go to hell.

    Be a hell of a lot safer, for one thing.

    Yeah, and we’d have all the best people. And all the stuff, like good sex and birth control and everything else they think is evil.

  19. As an athiest (small-a), this makes me want to be a reclusive, gun-toting, paranoid hermit living up in the Rockies somewhere.

    Then again, I’ve already got at the very least three out of those five, so it’s not much of a stretch. -_-

  20. A primary theme of the movie is the combat mentality of the Christians featured in the film. Words like “battle,” “warrior,” “war,” “training,” “Christian soldier” and “enemy” are tossed around regularly. The children’s pastor repeatedly references the idea that Christians are at war against “the enemy” (Islam, secularism, the devil), and the kids are flat-out told that they’re being “trained.” There’s a lot of emphasis on obedience —

    This seems to be a recurring theme with the fundamentalist protestant and even now catholic followers, that I think has gotten more traction over the past fifteen years or so as the right has taken over political discourse and the republicans have made social divisions even greater. Since history long back, the christian church has always served as the relief valve of the populace, struggling under the burden of social oppression.

    It’s easy enough. Just accept Jesus into your heart, and nothing else is really required of you, except judgment of others who haven’t found Him yet, and attempts to make those other people see the Truth. You certainly don’t have to pursue anything intellectual — a cornerstone of the movement is that nothing is true except God, science is a joke, and intellectualism is a silly pursuit. And these people have a whole lot of pull in American politics.

    That’s the attraction — that membership is easy and lottsa fun — just off your mind and we’ll do the thinking for you! How about that! And as if that isn’t grand enough, we got a seat waiting for you next to “The Right Hand of God”.

    Christianity in all forms promises this, fundies take it one step further and make it even more attractive to common folk who haven’t the will or the economic advantageous to find happiness in any other way. Many, coming from lower to middle income backgrounds I think see themselves locked out of a certain sector of society that obviously is having a better time than them, has more toys and much more power than they will ever enjoy. Hence, its also easy to filter such pent-up envy and rage into hate and hate that demands action here on earth against the ‘enemy’ they which they could get chance to be.

    These kids are growing up thoroughly insulated and under-educated.

    There are enough adults and children that ignorant, propagandized and scared to make up a pretty good sized country I think.

  21. I got the quote highlights confused. Sorry. and my grammar isn’t the greatest. Hope you can manage, if you read what I wrote.

    And no, I won’t turn to jesus even if I know I haven’t enjoyed the economic success or advantage some of you have. I”ll just beg your patience with me.

  22. Kate, Jesus can only help you if you help yourself. Be born again under Him, and all your grammar mistakes will disappear! You will never screw up the blockquote function again! All your wildest dreams will come true!

  23. Ok, so this made me SO incredibly grateful to grow up in the church that I did. My parents (mostly my dad actually) are like the scary Christians mentioned here, but the church I went to was great. They talked a lot about charity, sharing what you have with the poor, reaching out to those who need help, etc… I had an amazing youth pastor who was like a second father to me, he really worked hard to make sure all the kids in our church had someone they could turn to, no matter what they did, and do so without fear of judgement or condemnation. I remember going to a youth rally where they spent an hour dragging us through these graphic, vivid descriptions of hell and what awaited us if we didn’t convert RIGHT NOW and then asked for people to turn their lives over to Christ. My youth pastor devoted our next youth group to letting all of us talk about why we thought this was the wrong approach and how scaring people into Christianity was a very bad idea. As such, most of us grew up to be relatively well adjusted people and while we didn’t run screaming from church as fast as we could, we’re also not the scary Christians that you see trying to shove our views down everyone’s throats. Most of us are pretty progressive and believe in things like science and intellectual pursuits. I only know a few of my youth group friends who I would actually describe as fundamentalists.

  24. I am sort of afraid to go and see this movie. I think I’ll break down. I was raised in the Pentecostal church by my mother, whose father founded our particular church. My father was a non-believer, and he’s the only thing that stood between me put in a Christian school. But I did go to church camp for several years and it was much like the descriptions of this movie. We were kept sleep and food deprived. We attended several hours of “chapel” daily that lasted into the late, late hours of the night. In these chapel services, we were browbeaten, terrorized, shamed, and brainwashed. They did book and music burnings. We would sometimes pass out from the heat or lack of food/sleep and they’d proclaim that we’d been “slain in the Spirit.” Children (or adults, for that matter) who are kept sleep deprived are very prone to weeping and by the end of the services, everyone would be sobbing.

    Please never forget that despite how brainwashed these kids seem, a lot of them will come out okay. Many of us grow up to completely reject the insanity. I’m now a joyfully atheist pro-choice anarchist.

  25. I wish there had been more on the homeschooling, about why the parents felt they had to pull their kids out.

    Well, if you leave your kids in school, they’ll pick up ideas that don’t mix well with church brainwashing.

  26. I wish there had been more on the homeschooling, about why the parents felt they had to pull their kids out.

    Well, if you leave your kids in school, they’ll pick up ideas that don’t mix well with church brainwashing.

    Yes, that’s true, but I suppose my point is that there may be space between pushing an epistemically naturalist line (“science is the most reliable guide we have towards the physical world”) and the metaphysically or ontologically naturalist line (“the physical world, microparticles in motion, is all there is; there is no deeper meaning or significance to it beyond what our organic brains fool us into believing”) … and that a political liberalism, at least, ought to be concerned by public schools pushing the latter. Precisely *because* doing so will alienate even reasonable, non-wingnut religious believers … and drive them into the arms of the unreasonable. I’m not saying schools intentionally push the ontological naturalist view; I do think, though, that they could do more to affirmatively insist upon the distinction, and welcome those who can only buy into the epistemic naturalism. (And don’t think this is some coded brief for ‘Intelligent Design’, or ‘teach the controversy’ or anything.)

  27. The kids in the film are sort of a sad bunch. They’re all cute and sweet, and you certainly feel for them, but it’s relatively clear that they’re a little socially off, and Christian camp is very much a crutch for them. One of the more passionately religious girls, Rachael, is always by herself, even at camp. She mentions being teased at school, but says she doesn’t care because she’s a Christian, and what God thinks of her is what really matters. Christianity, for a lot of these kids, seems like a coping mechanism and a way for them to fit in socially, when they’re usually shy or awkward at school.

    One of the things that bothers me about a lot of liberal discussions of religion is the implied view that what motivates faith is something crudely instrumental. The underlying assumption seems to be that deep down, nobody smart really believes this stuff – they just tell people (or tell themselves) they do as a way to get ahead, or make friends, or feel better because they don’t have friends or whatever.

    Which may be true, but it’s true in the same way that it’s true that students at elite colleges don’t really care about social injustice – they just espouse liberal positions as a way to cement their class identity. That is, there may be some truth to it, but it’s a pretty reductive, pessimistic truth and unlikely to get you anywhere if you actually want to start a dialogue as opposed to score cheap points.

  28. I’m not saying schools intentionally push the ontological naturalist view; I do think, though, that they could do more to affirmatively insist upon the distinction, and welcome those who can only buy into the epistemic naturalism.

    Thinking back to my high school days, I’m not sure what I would change. The two science teachers I had (for 3 of my 4 years of science classes) both pointed this out. One was an atheistic biology professor; for him, teaching us the former view was a matter of principle, but the theme was also relatively prominent in the early chapters of the bio textbook. The other was the physics teacher; you really can’t teach physics without pointing out that Newtonian mechanics is only a half-assed approximation. A damned useful approximation, but it falls apart when you go really fast (relativistic effects) or really small (quantum effects). The fact that he was Catholic had very little to do with it.

    Granted, my high school had a pretty decent science curriculum, but I really don’t see how you can teach either biology or physics without pointing out the “science as an approximation that continually improves” concept, and that leads pretty naturally into what you called the epistemically naturalist line.

  29. One of the things that bothers me about a lot of liberal discussions of religion is the implied view that what motivates faith is something crudely instrumental. The underlying assumption seems to be that deep down, nobody smart really believes this stuff – they just tell people (or tell themselves) they do as a way to get ahead, or make friends, or feel better because they don’t have friends or whatever.

    Which may be true, but it’s true in the same way that it’s true that students at elite colleges don’t really care about social injustice – they just espouse liberal positions as a way to cement their class identity. That is, there may be some truth to it, but it’s a pretty reductive, pessimistic truth and unlikely to get you anywhere if you actually want to start a dialogue as opposed to score cheap points.

    Actually, Amy, that’s not my view at all. I’m a Christian — not a Pentacostal and not an Evangelical, but a Christian nonetheless. Most of the Christians who I know aren’t believers just because we’re desperate to make friends or because we’re stupid. My observation was limited to the people in this film, not to Christians nation-wide.

    If you see the film, I think it becomes pretty clear why that’s an important aspect. These kids dedicate major portions of their life to church-related activities in a way that most of the Christians I know, even with Sunday school and weekend church camps, just never did. And the kids in the film mention several times how their relationship with Christ replaces or eases their relationships with other kids. It seemed to me that the pastor here knew how to focus on the kids who seemed lost, alienated or lonely, and offer them a solution. That doesn’t mean that they don’t believe it deeply, or that they’re wrong.

  30. I would be interested in hearing Jill reflect on what effect she expects the movie will have on those not inside the pentecostal community, who see it.

    As a liberal Christian feminist raised in a scary fundamentalist household, I found even the previews of the movie disturbing, most likely because they triggered post traumatic stress disorder (all that crying and screaming — that’s Guantanamo caliber stuff) but also because I anticipated that the whole movie was blue state porn about what’s horrifying in the red states.

    My impression of the movie was that it was going to be breathless liberal scare-mongering — and I’m just so tired of hearing about it. Yes — there ARE people in Missouri who don’t believe in the authority of science and don’t even really read the Bible they say their religion is based on — but what is the net effect of showing them in action? Does it really add to our understanding of them? Is it helping to turn America into a place where civil discourse can take place among people of different belief systems?

    Jill’s review suggests that the tone of the film-making wasn’t scare-mongering, but rather one of helpless sympathy — she left the film feeling sorry for the kids involved and impressed with a sense of the adults’ narcissism. So I’m curious if anyone (especially Jill) has an opinion on whether that’s a constructive approach. Does feeling sorry for children caught in the fundamentalist worldviews of adults increase our understanding in some way? Or does it just villainize the adults all the more?

    Obviously, I’m pretty cynical about the whole point of the movie, but I’m hoping other people maybe have more positive ideas about what a movie like that is good for at this point in time.

  31. “…kids are pretty good at knowing… … when things are “creepy”. *snip* Not to mention that, after praying to Jesus to “come into your heart” a billion times, and never actually experiencing anything, teenagers can get mighty distrustful…”

    That describes me to a tee. My first “religious” experience (5) was at a very creepy, very southern baptist church… it soured me on religion pretty permanently, even though I did try for years afterwards (in various different churches/religions). In the end I always seemed to come to the same conclusion though, which leads to Amy’s comment…

    “…deep down, [hardly anyone] really believes this stuff – they just tell people (or tell themselves) they do as a way to get ahead, or make friends, or feel better because they don’t have friends or whatever.

    That’s been my experience. Even my younger sister admitted she just wanted to go to socialize, to get baptized because all her other siblings had (some of them more than once – nvm we all ended up atheists) and to be accepted in a specific social circle. A lot of people I know say that they just love the feeling of community and could care less about the religion itself. Now this is ALL personal experience and my experience is indeed limited in context of the world (or even the country)… which is why I agree with your last paragraph, Amy.

    I must say though, I find the plight of these children (Jesus Camp) pitiful and sad in that these people are limiting those children’s ability to have faith. Limiting it to the choice between a “dead faith” or no faith at all. That’s what bothers me most about it. Religion is something one should seek out if wanted, not handed to people. It is something that must be searched for, questioned, researched, studied, desired. Not something that other people tell you to believe in or else.

  32. A lot of people I know say that they just love the feeling of community and could care less about the religion itself. Now this is ALL personal experience and my experience is indeed limited in context of the world (or even the country)

    That’s been mostly my experience as well. At least it was while I was growing up. I enjoyed going to church (small catholic church in a mostly freewill baptist/pentecostal area) because I liked the ritual and we played fun games in youth group. Most of my more evangelical, fundamentalist friends felt the same way about their churches as well. Of course, there are always some who are hardcore believers in it for the religion, and I’ve known more of these as a adult nonbeliever than as a kid/teen, but 8/10 christians I’ve ever known were more about the community and belonging than Jesus. And I know that anecdotes do not make a data set, but I don’t think that mine (and Rhiannon’s) is a terribly uncommon experience either.

  33. I did grow up with a lot of this crap, and went to bible camp myself. You know what made it a lot easier to leave behind? The outright lies. Like this one:

    he passes around plastic fetus models, which all look exactly like curled-up babies in varying sizes. He announces that one of the models, which is about 2 inches long and looks exactly like a baby, is an exact model of a fetus at 7 weeks old. The kids touch them and look sad.

    I love it when they come right out and lie. Manipulation can be hidden, but outright lies are harder to explain. What happens when those same kids come across some contradictory facts? Like, for instance, that a 7-week old fetus isn’t even half an inch long yet and just starting to bud arms? Some of them will close their eyes to it, but certainly not all.

    Facts are the best weapon against these people.

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