In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set || First feminist blog on the internet

Ask Me Anything, And I Will Answer, part 1

A week ago, you asked. Now, I’ll do my best to answer your feminism-related questions. Some of them, at least.

1. From David, “What are your thoughts on feminism and multiculturalism?”

This is a good one, and I’ve made a few attempts to write about it before. Essentially, I think that multiculturalism is obviously valuable, but I also think there’s a point at which feminism becomes imcompatible with cultural relativism. Feminist theory, and uman rights theory in general, subscribes to the idea that all people deserve certain inalienable rights, and that those rights are deserved simply because we are all human beings (there is a more complicated philosophical and moral framework behind it, but I’m not going to go into all the details right now). I would argue that there is not a single culture in existence today that does not, in some way, infringe on these rights. Some cultures obviously infringe on them much more egregiously. But instead of “good cultures” and “bad cultures,” we have more of a sliding scale when it comes to human and women’s rights. And so any culture, I think, can be scrutinized, criticized and improved. Any culture is fair game.

What isn’t fair game is orientalizing other cultures, assuming that “different” means “worse,” and believing (with little evidence) that American or Western culture is and has always been superior to all other cultures when it comes to human rights norms. What isn’t fair game is falling back on imperalistic policies to create change in other countries, while refusing to face our own problems. What isn’t fair game is not trusting local people enough to devise their own solutions.

In the post linked above, which focused on abortion and dowry practices in India, I wrote:

And this again is where I differ from many like-minded liberals: I think that at some point, feminism and cultural relativism are incompatible. I think that at some point, universal human rights and cultural relativism are incompatible. I think maintaining one’s culture is incredibly important, but I don’t think that something is good or valuable just because it’s been around for a long time. And I know that culture isn’t static; it shifts, it changes, and it develops. Not so long ago, women were pretty much sold as property from their fathers to their husbands, and it had been that way for a long, long time. But we changed the definition of marriage, and all for the better. So do I think that it would be wrong or culturally imperialist of me to suggest that the dowry system needs to be changed in order for women in India to be fully equal? No. And while I think it is my position as a feminist to disseminate information and encourage widening of thought, I think that changes like that one have to come internally, from Indian women and men who do feel oppressed by the dowry system (and believe me, they exist). There will be many who argue that the system isn’t oppressive, just as there were many who argued that chattel marriage wasn’t oppressive. But that doesn’t make it so.

That remains my view. Feminism and cultural relativism hit a point where they can simply no longer be wedded. Feminism does have boundaries, and it draws lines at the points where women and girls are being relegated to second-class status because of their gender. Every culture in existence crosses this line at some point. It’s out job, as feminists, to criticize the places where those lines are crossed, and strategize ways to improve all of our situations.

Multiculturalism, however, may have different connotations that “cultural relativism.” We live in a multicultural society. That isn’t going to change anytime soon (and thank God for that). Recognizing that all of our cultures have value is not at all incompatible with feminism; in fact, it’s quite in line with a perspective which argues that the white male experience should not be privileged above all others. Allowing people to identify with their own cultural backgrounds, and not pushing them to leave their own beliefs and traditions behind, is an important component of American society. And that in itself is not at all in conflict with feminist theory. The issue comes up when sexist, racist, or otherwise discriminatory actions and beliefs are justified through multiculturalism and cultural relativism.

2. From Matt, “How can feminist bloggers make their voices heard over the din of “mainstream” political blogosphere? This question presupposes that feminist bloggers are (a) not heard and (b) would want to be heard – feel free to disagree with either premise, or any ones that remain unstated.”

This is a tough one, and I’m very uncomfortable speaking for feminist bloggers as a whole. I’m sure there are some who feel that they are heard, many more who feel they aren’t, some who want to be heard in the mainstream, and many who could care less if mainstream bloggers link to them. So I’ll speak for myself.

In the blogging world, I’m a nobody. I’m no DKos, I’m no Atrios, I’m no Jane or Christie from FDL. In the feminist blogging world, though, Feministe somehow rose in the ranks (if you buy into the idea that there are ranks), and I’ve been informed that it is one of the “bigger” feminist blogs.

I don’t think about it like that. I assume that it’s me, zuzu and piny writing, and our small group of commenters reading. I occassionally look at our traffic and it doesn’t match up with how I conceive of this community at all.

So on that level, I suppose that I am heard. We’ve gotten our handful of Atrios and Dkos links, and some of the bigger mainstream bloggers write regularly about feminist issues. That’s important, because those blogs are big for a reason — they cover a wide range of issues in a way that’s accessible to lots of different people. Getting more feminist issues into those blogs is incredibly valuable.

But I’ve been generally burnt out on electoral politics, and you’ll notice that I rarely write about elections or schill for the Democratic party. I did that — I worked on campaigns, I went door to door, I supported candidates, the whole deal, and I’m disappointed. The Democratic party doesn’t represent me. There isn’t a single candidate out there (other than in local elections) who really excites me right now. The mainstream blogs like Kos and MyDD are focused on how to elect more Democrats into Congress, and that’s good and fine — but it’s not a conversation that I’m particularly interested in having. Until the Democratic party gets its act together and is truly progressive, I have no interest in using my little corner of the internet to strategize ways to get their people in office. And that, I think, is where a lot of the feminist blogs diverge from the mainstream political blogs. We’re approaching blogging on two different levels.

The level that gets focused on, of course, is NetRoots and politicking, and I take very little issue with that. Someone has to do it, and I’m glad that there are motivated individuals out there who are using this technology to make important political gains. However, like I said, that’s not the conversation that I want to have. I like using blog space for community-building and issue-based discussions. It’s exciting to see my feminism being shaped by other feminist bloggers I read. Few things have made me as happy as the emails I’ve received from people saying that Feministe shaped their feminism, or encouraged them to identify as a feminist in the first place. Right now, that’s where my interest lies, and so that’s what I’m focused on. Not making my voice heard, not the number of links we get, not who links to us.

But that said, I am always thrilled when I see a link from one of the “big” blogs to Feministe or another progressive feminist blog, because it gets our issues out into the dominant social conversation, and that has value as well. There are certainly many feminists out there who are more interested than I am in electoral politics right now, and/or who are more interested in having their voices heard in the mainstream blogosphere. I think there are many more of us who need to be heard. As for how they can do that, I’m not sure there’s any big secret — at the end of the day, there are only a handful of “top” blogs, and those stay pretty static. What I think the online feminist community has been pretty good at is organizing and supporting each other through things like Feminist Blogs and BlogSheroes. Any feminist blogger who wants to be connected into the larger feminist blogging community should list themselves on these sites. Beyond that, I’d say that making connections into the community that you’d like to be heard in is the most important thing. If you’re a small feminist blogger and you would love it if the bigger feminist blogs would link to you, let us know that you’re out there. Send an email and link to a recent post that you think is particularly good. Show up at the bigger feminist blogs and comment. Leave trackbacks. Make your handle more recognizable, and people will come. If you want to be heard at the big-boy blogs, I’m not sure how you go about them. I’d say you could email, but I’d imagine that they get hundreds of emails a day and yours may go unnoticed or ignored, especially if you’re blog-whoring. But give it a shot. And if you have a particular issue that isn’t being talked about, or if you aren’t being widely recognized, keep at it. Will you displace Kos as the biggest liberal blogger out there? Probably not. And if you’re writing about feminism, you should probably keep in mind that in our particularly conservative cultural context right now, you’re going to generally be considered on the fringe, even if what you’re saying is fairly simple and shouldn’t be all that controversial. But if what you’re saying is important, it’s worth keeping up, and it’s worth standing up and shouting until someone pays attention.

3. From Hugo, “Jill, it’s a broad question, but as you were very recently an undergrad — what are those of us who teach feminism/women’s studies doing right, and what could we do better, to reach younger budding feminists of your generation?”

You guys have some really good, tough questions. First, I would say that you shouldn’t make any assumptions about where your students are in their feminist development. Don’t assume that they all identify as feminists. Don’t assume that they even understand what “feminism” actually is. All the women’s studies professors I had were particularly good at getting the point across that feminism is a diverse theory, and that there isn’t a single version of feminism that all feminists adhere to. That’s incredibly important. Feminist professors I had were also good at sharing their own personal experiences as examples, and encouraing us to examine our own lives in our studies of women’s history, oppression, and gender politics. As KnifeGhost pointed out in the comments, intersectionality in women’s studies has also been a key component in developing feminism for many younger women and men. They’re certainly doing that right.

I think, though, that educators could do a better job of reaching out to communities where “feminism” is still considered a dirty word. I was practically forced to take my Intro to Women’s Studies class freshman year, and I only enrolled because I was registering late and there weren’t spots in any other classes. Had it not been one of my only options, I’m not sure I would have ever taken gender studies classes at all. Something needs to shift, outreach-wise, in order to get more young women interested in feminism and women’s studies from the get-go. For this to happen, I’d like to see prominent people, including professors of all stripes, wearing their feminism on their sleeves, and using the word “feminist” to accurately describe feminist issues. Reproductive rights, for example, is a feminist issue, and when we’re talking about it in a political context, we should be using the word “feminism.” Women’s rights in Afghanistan is a feminist issue. Sexual harassment is a feminist issue. Rape is a feminist issue. Poverty is a feminist issue. Ethnic and religious conflicts are feminist issues. Sexual politics are feminist issues. We shouldn’t shy away from using the word “feminist” to describe them — it’s accurate, and it helps to demystify the word a little bit. It could also help younger women to feel more connected to feminism, and be more likely to pursue some coursework in women’s/gender studies.

And other than that, I would simply encourage feminist professors to take younger women seriously. I feel like I hear a lot of complaints from older women activists that my generation is lazy or that we don’t care about feminism. That isn’t true — in a lot of ways, we just speak a different language and we form our communities in different ways (see this post at Feministing for one example of those divides). We also focus on different issues and have different takes on some of the established feminist issues — the best women’s studies professors I’ve had took younger women seriously, engaged us, challenged us, and allowed us to challenge them. But I didn’t see that often enough.

This is taking a little longer than I thought it would, since you all asked such incisive and interesting questions. I’m gonna try and get a few more done tonight, and hopefully I’ll finish the list over the next few days. Feel free to critique my answers, add your own, or ask clarifying questions in the comments.


86 thoughts on Ask Me Anything, And I Will Answer, part 1

  1. And so any culture, I think, can be scrutinized, criticized and improved. Any culture is fair game.

    Yes…

    What isn’t fair game is not trusting local people enough to devise their own solutions.

    And what if these local people don’t see a problem, and don’t want any solutions beyond “let’s keep our tradition”? Shall we close our eyes and wish upon a star that they will change their mind?

    How long should we be patient and hope that they can change?

    We live in a multicultural society. That isn’t going to change anytime soon (and thank God for that)

    What is wrong with monocultural society? I’m serious, what?

  2. It’s boring.

    It’s also usually much more crimefree and safe, but hey, who cares about that. As long as rich law students can have their multicultural disneyland to play in (and to retreat in their gentrified gated communities afterwards) then who cares about that!

  3. Pardon the redundancy, and the trollish nature of that comment, but didn’t you have a post about your trip to Egypt that you were frequently harrassed? This is what you want to inflict on the lower classes, all just so you can have fun.

  4. Do you have evidence to back up your claim that monocultural societies are usually more crime-free and safe?

    Also, get personal like that again and you can see yourself out.

  5. I want to inflict what on the lower classes? Brown people? And how exactly is that “fun” for me?

    I have to say, I’m confused. And for the record, I’m hardly rich. I’m a law student, but I’m living off of student loans, and those aren’t exactly generous. And it means that I’ll be graduating with $200,000 in deb.t Mommy and Daddy aren’t paying my rent or my tuition, contrary to what you might have baselessly assumed. And I don’t live in a gaited community — I live in the East Village in Manhattan which, gentrified as it may be, certainly isn’t a haven for preppy rich white kids looking to insulate themselves from scary immigrants.

    I’m also harassed in New York just as much as I was ever harassed in Cairo (which, by the way, is more monocultural than New York City). It’s a different type of harassment, and it’s one that I’m more accustomed to, which makes it comparatively less upsetting.

    By the way, Egypt has, I believe, a fairly low crime rate. Police states help with that.

  6. I want to inflict what on the lower classes? Brown people?

    Oh, you meant multiracialism! You should have written so, because I thought race is not culture (or is it? The PC answer seems to change).

    Cultural divisions. Incompatible interests. Different values, and problems rising from this. As some cultures necessarily emphasize success and learning less then others, then lower classes will share the neighborhood with people of these cultures (who tend to make up much of the lower class).

    And how exactly is that “fun” for me?

    You tell me. That’s why I asked the damn question. I can’t figure out the thought processes of leftists on my own. I don’t think monocultural society is boring, it’s not boring because people are inviduals. I don’t feel a need to have a multicultural group of friends to get liberal street cred, and I most certainly don’t feel a need to promote multiculturalism to my society (to others) for the said cred. Perhaps that is the fun.

  7. Oh wow. That was some bullshit right there. But Tuomas is yet another ‘keyboard gangsta’ who wouldn’t dare say it to your face. Gotta love a prick.

    Anyway. I’ll ask a question: In light of the Clinton/Harlem/FDL/CultureKitchen drama, as a black woman, tell me again why I should buy into this feminist jazz when ONCE again, white liberals show their ‘true colors’ under the guise of being progressive?????

    Because that shit that went down at FDL, made me want to kick old boy (Trex) straight in the balls.

    That whole situation was EXTREMELY disappointing.

  8. Tuomas: Switzerland has four official languages and Finland has a history of marginalizing the Sami ethnic minority.

  9. I suppose I wen’t a little overboard there, on comment 3 and partly on 4. Apologies, Jill.

    FTR, everything I say here is not dependant on being “a keyboard gangsta” — I use a nonsecure e-mail and I don’t say anything here that I couldn’t tell straight up anyway, should I ever get on that side of the pond.

  10. You tell me. That’s why I asked the damn question. I can’t figure out the thought processes of leftists on my own. I don’t think monocultural society is boring, it’s not boring because people are inviduals. I don’t feel a need to have a multicultural group of friends to get liberal street cred, and I most certainly don’t feel a need to promote multiculturalism to my society (to others) for the said cred. Perhaps that is the fun.

    It has nothing to do with street cred, sorry.

    I think you and I are coming at this from vastly different backgrounds. I grew up in a multicultural city, and moved to another multicultural city at 18. So for me, multiculturalism isn’t something that I have the option of accepting or rejecting — it’s here, it exists, and the question is what it means and how we deal with it. So this idea that I’m “promoting” it is ridiculous — I’m recognizing its presence in my life, and saying that, from my experience, it’s been an overwhelmingly good thing. I can’t imagine a monocultural life. My best friend and college room mate is half black and half Indian; my long-term (on again/off again) boyfriend is Indian and Hindu; my best high school friend is a half black, part Native American, Jehovah’s Witness whose mother’s family was the first black family in the town neighboring mine. My room mate now is Irish and Italian. Her boyfriend is half Italian and half Jewish. I’m Serbian, Polish and German, and a mix of other random things. This summer I was able to reconnect with some of those roots, and it was valuable to me. I just went shopping and brought home Italian Bufala mozzerella cheese, Chinese potstickers, Thai noodles, Sicilian wine, French cheese, and Mexican-style salsa. On my block there’s a sushi place, a pommes frittes place, a Tibetan clothing store, a soul food joint, a Mexican restaurant, a Middle Eastern falafel and hookah joint, and an Italian place around the corner.

    That’s what multiculturalism looks like in my life — it permeates every aspect of it. So when I talk about it, it’s not optional. It’s not something that I think is cute or fun. It just is.

    And so from my particular vantage point, anti-multiculturalism is inherently exclusionary. It means going after the right of my neighbor to live where she does because she isn’t “American” in the way that I’m American because I’m white, Christian and was born here. I’m sure that in other places the conversation is different, but in the United States — and particularly in immigrant-heavy cities like New York — saying that you oppose multiculturalism pretty much translates into saying that you want a white majority to suppress the rights and the very existence of so many others who share this place. And so anti-multiculturalist rhetoric obviously rubs me the wrong way.

  11. Switzerland has four official languages and Finland has a history of marginalizing the Sami ethnic minority.

    Language differences do not a multiculture make.

    As for Sami, that’s very true, but Sami are indigenous to Lapland only and there is hardly a country where a majority has not oppressed a minority (and sometimes vice versa). Usually multicultural societies gradually transform into monocultural ones, due to “melting pot” effect or due to oppression of minority cultures and forced/coerced assimilation.

    It is doubtful whether multicultural society is a stable system.

  12. In light of the Clinton/Harlem/FDL/CultureKitchen drama, as a black woman, tell me again why I should buy into this feminist jazz when ONCE again, white liberals show their ‘true colors’ under the guise of being progressive?????

    It’s a good question, Tiffany. I would just say that the mainstream progressive blogosphere doesn’t do a particularly good job of representing feminist thought. I have no idea whether TRex is a feminist or not, but I know that he does not speak for me.

    The fact is that white liberals fuck up a lot when it comes to race. We’re in an extremely privileged position, and while we have no excuse for our fuck-ups, I hope that those who are a little more enlightened will continue to give other liberals hell when we fuck up.

    That FDL post was a mess, and I hope no one attributes feminist thought to it. I’d encourage you buy into feminist thought for the same reason that we should buy into other social justice theories — because it seeks to make the world a better and more equal place. And it’s on its way.

  13. Re #13:

    Thank you!

    The backgroung indeed is different (small rural community in Southern Finland), and accepting an existing society certainly doesn’t rub me the wrong way. It is the assumption that there is something wrong with monocultural societies so that they need to be transformed into multicultural ones “Because multiculturalism just is better, period” that annoys me. If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it.

    saying that you oppose multiculturalism pretty much translates into saying that you want a white majority to suppress the rights and the very existence of so many others who share this place. And so anti-multiculturalist rhetoric obviously rubs me the wrong way.

    I don’t support that kind of opposition to multiculturalism, I suppose I should try to clarify it better in my writing.

  14. Tell that to Canada.

    Why? I hope it does work. I’m just not not 100% convinced of it, nor do I feel a need to be sure that multiculturalism works.

  15. Ugh, Zuzu, just read them. I feel dirty. However, I did like this comment from Maryscott O’Connor:

    If you haven’t heard of Liza, that’s to your own discredit, dude. Not hers.

    What an incredibly condescending, superior, self-satisfied, priggish motherfucking post.

    But hey, she’s just one of the “Little Bloggers” — no harm in shredding one of THEM, huh.

    Cowardice and ignorance — now where have I seen that combination before?

    Word, Mary.

  16. Are you going to tell me that multicultural Canada isn’t a stable society?

    It is reasonably stable, because the cultures that make up it and the people therein hold value in multiculturalism. Monocultural societies aren’t necessarily stable either, obviously.

  17. Jill, thanks for a thoughtful answer — and I couldn’t agree more that we have to “name and claim” our feminism publicly, and work to heal some of the generational divides that have long lain beneath the surface.

  18. Jill,

    Speaking to your response to Hugo, I thought you might be interested to know that the Indiana University Gender Studies program and Sexuality Studies program has started advertizing themselves on the campus loop bus. Yep, there are little ads in the bus encouraging people to take Gender and Sexuality Studies classes. I give it two very enthusiastic thumbs up, a bold move, I hope it pay off for them.

  19. Jill – I’m really glad you posted on the whole feminism/cultural relativism thing. As a feminist, I have definitely had problems reconciling the two, and have taken shit from other liberals who take issue with the fact that I don’t think, like you say,

    that something is good or valuable just because it’s been around for a long time.

    Thanks for your work, and great post!

  20. Jill, the thing that bothers me most about multiculturalism (or cultural relativism) being portrayed as conflictual with feminism is that assumption that there’s no feminist resistance completely indigenous to the cultures that look patriarchal and ugly to out western feminist standards. All over the world, women resist patriarchy. They always have and always will. They may not do it in ways that we recognize or particularly agree with, but who are we to assume they don’t know what they’re doing?

    Tuomas, nobody’s saying monocultural societies are inherently worse. Most North Americans prefer multicultural societies, cause we’ve grown up in them and quiet like them, thank you. I think there’s something _very_ wrong with forcibly making a multicultural society monocultural, and forcibly keeping a monocultural society from becoming a multicultural one, but hey, I’m a hippy Canadian, what do we know?

    Tiffany in Houston: I hate to be the guy who defines who is and isn’t a good feminist, but I would say shit-storms like the FDL thing happen because a lot of white progressive feminists are bad at feminism. At least bad at intersectionality, which is fundamental to Third-Wave feminism.

  21. I’m going to go ahead and say that while monocultural societies aren’t inherently flawed or problematic, there is an obvious inherent value in multicultural society.
    You expose people to more varied ways of being and living and eating and making music and putting their families together, you give them more options. You show them there’s lots of ways of being in the world and that everyone has a place.
    The more ways of being you present, especially to young, developing people, I think the more likely they’ll find a way that works for them and makes them happy. If that way is, in the end, living in a monocultural enclave, well, good for them and best of luck.
    Multicultural arrangements have their risks and instabilities, of course, but I’m all for giving everyone as many chances as possible to fit somewhere and contribute to the wellbeing of themselves and others. A lot of people can do that in a monocultural society. A lot of people can’t. For those latter, a multicultural milieu serves them immeasurably. For the former, it shows them just why their own monocultural milieu is so valuable to them and lets them know they chose to be there. As far as I’m concerned, everyone wins.

  22. To Tuomas (and people in general who feel the urge to demand insistently of every feminist or liberal they meet, “WHAT ABOUT MULTICULTURALISM!?”): there’s really quite a large literature, especially in recent years, about the real or potential clash between feminism (or liberalism more generally) and multiculturalism. If you’re really interesting in learning what political theorists/philosophers have to say when they think about the subject for a long, long time, [spoiler: they disagree!] I’d suggest looking into it. One clear starting point (though only a starting point) is the debate on Susan Moller Okin’s “Is Multiculturalism Bad For Women?”, which can be found here (scroll down). If you really care, you can buy it as a book, too, but the online version is good enough, really.

    For libertarian/liberal (thought not explicitly feminist) takes on multiculturalism, see Chandran Kukathas’ The Liberal Archipelago or Jacob T. Levy’s The Multiculturalism of Fear. Okay, that last bit was a bit off point, but the bottom line is that you can say good things about “multiculturalism” even if you like Nozick and Hayek.

  23. nobody’s saying monocultural societies are inherently worse.

    Actually, plenty of people assume that multicultural societies are better, or that multiculturalism is obviously valuable.

    I think there’s something _very_ wrong with forcibly making a multicultural society monocultural, and forcibly keeping a monocultural society from becoming a multicultural one,

    On first part I agree with, on the second part, with reservations. If this force is the democratic will of the people already there at the expense of newcomers, then no, I don’t agree with you.

    In other words, I think there is something wrong in forcibly making monocultural societies multicultural.

  24. Actually, plenty of people assume that multicultural societies are better, or that multiculturalism is obviously valuable.

    Who?

  25. Tally, in the original article, Jill wrote:

    Essentially, I think that multiculturalism is obviously valuable, but I also think there’s a point at which feminism becomes imcompatible with cultural relativism.

    Why is it obvious?

    This is also the official party line of most left-leaning political parties in EU.

  26. In other words, I think there is something wrong in forcibly making monocultural societies multicultural.

    There’s something wrong with forcibly making any societies anything.

    Typically, the debate isn’t actually “should we have a multicultural society or a monocultural society?” but “should we recognize that our society is multicultural, or enforce monoculturalism?” I’m sure you can guess which side I’d come down on.

    Stereotypes about Canadians, though, are pretty diverse. On one hand you have beer-and-hockey hoser stereotype, but then there’s the polite-and-socially-liberal stereotype. Political correctness took hold a lot stronger in Canada, gay marriage is legal, there’s no credible legal or political threat to abortion rights, so on. So, to answer your question, Canadians (particularly British Columbians) get a bit of the hippy stereotype, and I’m even further along on the hippy scale than average.

  27. PLN: Nice links. I actually think quite a lot about multiculturalism and it’s compatibility with liberalism, and liberalism and it’s compatibility with preserving my culture, and Western culture in general. I have to say, these days I find value in Lawrence Auster’s viewpoint on the issue, though I certainly don’t agree with him on everything.

    Chandran Kukathas’ Liberal Archipelago is horrible, if this review is any indicator.

    Makes me remember the rather apt truism about libertarism: That it is applied autism. No offence to autists.

    Typically, the debate isn’t actually “should we have a multicultural society or a monocultural society?” but “should we recognize that our society is multicultural, or enforce monoculturalism?” I’m sure you can guess which side I’d come down on.

    Depends on your geographical location. Inside EU there isn’t much debate — of course multiculturalism should be enforced — the debate is whether anti-multicultural sentiments should be censored completely in the name of “tolerance” (oh, the irony), or just considered very bad and wrong.

    I have yet to see a compelling argument against monocultural societies.

  28. I also think there’s a point at which feminism becomes imcompatible with cultural relativism

    Thank you for bringing up this conflict. It’s one I’ve struggled with repeatedly over the last decade, and while I tend to agree that no culture is or should be above reproach or criticism, I always have to ask myself what values system we should use in making these judgments.

    The natural response, of course, is to use our own concepts of inalienable rights (concepts which, of course, we believe strongly are absolutely complete and correct), but those concepts spring out of Western Civilization (and more specifically out of the Enlightenment). And that is where the trouble begins for me. The line between justifiable and sensible criticism and cultural imperialism can be a very fine one, as you noted in your post.

    It’s a hard balance to strike, and I still haven’t even come close to working out how to strike it.

  29. I have yet to see a compelling argument against monocultural societies.

    I think it’s worth pointing out that a monocultural society is A-OK as long as everyone is within the scope of that single culture. But problems are inevitable when you’re enforcing monoculture and people from other cultures are feeling the backlash. I agree that enforcing culture of any kind is wrong ! And in reality, the world is mixed. Utterly, beautifully mixed. Unless you’re building a wall and counting 1/8 heritage on your grandmother’s side (which I think sends alarm bells off, at least in my head) your culture is inherantly multi. The debate between monoculture and multiculture can only be expressed in terms of social experiement and theory.

    And, addressing an earlier point, language is one of the building-blocks and part of the lifeblood of culture. Language signifies cultural meaning- language expresses culture. It is determined by geography and history and religion and all else that culture evolves from. It’s an old cliche about the Eskimos having a hundred words for snow, etc- but that’s it right there. Their lifestyle and their traditions are all wrapped up in the things that they express and the way that they express them. Language carries culture long after other facets of culture can be stripped away. So: I feel that multiple languages can a multicultural society make, at least in some small part.

  30. I have yet to see a compelling argument against monocultural societies.

    This seems a bit of a non-sequitur to me. I have yet to see an argument against unicorns. “But there ARE no unicorns!” you say. “That doesn’t make them bad!” I could reply. Similarly: for no state on earth is “staying monocultural” an option. Try to list the places in the world that achieve the “one nation for every state, and one state for every nation” ideal, that is, in which there are no culturally distinct minorities within juridically supreme states. Small list, huh? As has been pointed out, even the tempting candidates like the Scandinavian countries have their minorities.

    So the question, as theorists like Kymlicka, Levy, and others have realized (and as KnifeGhost put it well), is not whether to just “stay one culture”, but how ought we *deal* with those cultural minorities that exist.

    You’ll be pleased to know that the most prominent liberal theory, that of Kymlicka, thinks that “national minorities” such as indigenous peoples are far more deserving of consideration than are immigrant groups, which he feels have more or less signed onto some degree of assimilation by coming here.

    I actually thought Kukathas’ book was quite good, though if you admire this Auster character I can understand why you’d hate it; as you may imagine, I have difficulty taking seriously someone who thinks of current immigration policies as “The Path to National Suicide.”

    Your claim that you’re not bothered by coercive efforts at assimilation so long as “this force is the democratic will of the people already there at the expense of newcomers” is deeply disturbing in two ways: it entirely ignores the (very real) plight of indigenous cultural minorities (as opposed to immigrants), and it ignores the way that the “democratic will” (shades of Robespierrian Jacobinism, anyone?) can and *will* be quite illiberal.

  31. It ought to be remembered that the distinction between a “monocultural society” and a “multicultural society” does not seem to have an universally agreed on definition. First, is it linked to race or not?

    If my neighbor is 1/4 Russian, is my neighborhood “multicultural”?

    Your claim that you’re not bothered by coercive efforts at assimilation so long as “this force is the democratic will of the people already there at the expense of newcomers” is deeply disturbing in two ways:

    I have never claimed that, so this is a honest mistake or a smear.

  32. In other words, I think there is something wrong in forcibly making monocultural societies multicultural.

    Short of invasion and colonization, how, exactly, in the modern world is a monocultural society “forced” to become multicultural?

    I know you get the vapors about Muslims settling in Europe, but keep in mind that they’re there because they were invited by their former colonial masters to fill a need for cheap labor. Just because *you* don’t like that they’re there doesn’t mean that they’re being forced onto your society.

  33. To clarify:

    I responded to Knifeghost:

    There is something very wrong in […] forcibly keeping a monocultural society from becoming a multicultural one,

    With:

    If this force is the democratic will of the people already there at the expense of newcomers, then no, I don’t agree with you.

    This statement referred to restricting immigration out of National interest.

    I actually thought Kukathas’ book was quite good, though if you admire this Auster character I can understand why you’d hate it; as you may imagine, I have difficulty taking seriously someone who thinks of current immigration policies as “The Path to National Suicide.”

    Get off your moral high horse already. “Admire?” I said I liked some of his views, notably some observations about Islam and Liberalism (the Unprincipled Exception).

    I found some of Kukathas’ views to be horribly naive: Such as:

    Our author is equally decisive in rejecting another objection. He maintains that people in a group who reject its way of life retain their freedom to obey conscience so long as they may leave the group. But is it not often very difficult for people to leave a group? What if the women in our example would find life in the “outside” world baffling, owing to their insulated upbringing? Are they really “free” to leave?

    Kukathas’s answer is “not to deny that exit can be extremely costly. It is simply to acknowledge that exit may, indeed, be costly; but the individual may still be free to decide whether or not to bear the cost. The magnitude of the cost does not affect the freedom” (p. 107). Once more Kukathas takes individuals as he finds them.

    In some cases, the cost is death. Some freedom.

  34. Echoing Hugo, thanks for answering my question so thoughtfully Jill.

    I must say, the tone and relevance of my question feels awfully different post-Clinton luncheon kerfuffle(s). I’m glad that that ordeal didn’t diminish the seriousness of your response.

  35. And can we get back to discussing feminism rather than Tuomas’ fantasies of a static monoculture?

    I’d love to, Zuzu, but all I could really say as to these answers was “thank you.” The advice to lil’ dinky bloggers like myself was really helpful, to me at least. That, and the stress on intersectionality and outreach to demographics where ‘feminism’ is a bad word in the teaching of feminist thought and analysis, were, I thought, useful points in the field. Intersectionality’s pretty vital, especially in that particular kind of outreach work.
    I just didn’t have much of anything to argue with.

  36. Short of invasion and colonization, how, exactly, in the modern world is a monocultural society “forced” to become multicultural?

    Um, why short of? By applying international pressure on countries to loosen up their immigration laws, for example.

    I know you get the vapors about Muslims settling in Europe, but keep in mind that they’re there because they were invited by their former colonial masters to fill a need for cheap labor.

    That is a simplistic and untruthfull view of immigration to Europe, especially when it comes to Nordic countries, who had no Muslim colonies! In fact, the vast majority of immigrants come due to “humanitarian reasons” or “family connection” rather than work or study.

    You should also remember the rather large unemployment in Europe, complete with lack of uneducated workplaces (proper for fresh immigants from third world countries). You should also analyze whether some immigrant groups have higher than 50% unemployment rates, especially in the enriched ghettoes.

    Do short-sighted big business interests like the opportunity to get plenty of cheap labor? Of course! But then the question is: Why are the leftists useful idiots for big business interests?

    Just because *you* don’t like that they’re there doesn’t mean that they’re being forced onto your society.

    Im not saying the force is applied to them. Oh, quite the contrary, considering the benefits welfare state offers. I’m saying they are being forced on the existing population. Just check the laws against “racism and xenophobia” in some European countries, It’s pretty hard to oppose it when it fact it is illegal.

  37. Zuzu:

    And can we get back to discussing feminism rather than Tuomas’ fantasies of a static monoculture?

    Some amount of boutique multiculturalism (diverse food, music etc.) is compatible with liberalism, and with stable society. But the real irony is that boutique multiculturalism isn’t incompatible with monoculturalism either, as long as there is an unifying factor such as citizenship and commitment to certain shared values.

  38. an unifying factor such as citizenship and commitment to certain shared values.

    No, that doesn’t sound like mentioning Dred Scott in a political debate at all…

  39. Why do we have to “share values” in order to live next to one another? I’m against abortion, you’re for it. I like oranges, you like apples. I boycott Walmart, you own a lot of it’s stock.

    As long as someone’s there to make sure you don’t infringe on my rights to live as I see fit, and vice versa, who gives a flyin’ fuck what our respective values are?

    “Shared values” by the way is usually thrown about by those who are xenophobes. If that’s not your intent, I’d be more careful using the term, lest someone misconstrue you (as always apparantley).

  40. “Shared values” by the way is usually thrown about by those who are xenophobes. If that’s not your intent, I’d be more careful using the term, lest someone misconstrue you (as always apparantley).

    Don’t worry, you aren’t misconstruing.

  41. I go into moderation, a nativist prick from the outer reaches of Scandinavia is allowed to blatantly threadjack what could have been a decent discussion.

    Irony;-)

  42. Eh, don’t bother approving my second, snarkier comment (nor this one.) It’s been a long, contentious day. Great post, Jill. Look forward to the next installment.

  43. Just in case my comment is too diaphanous, think of this: the human population of the earth has been in CONSTANT flux and movement since we got here. On a quickTime movie, the races and cultures mix like cream dispersing in a cup of coffee. Think of the history of England: it’s one damn group of conquerors/immigrants/conquered after another. It’s like that in EVERY nation. It is impossible to be monocultural for ANY significant amount of time. I think the only nation that ever tried to ENFORCE a monocultural ideal is: you guessed it, NAZI GERMANY.

    That doesn’t mean that a nation can’t make and enforce rules about immigration. I think Tuomas doesn’t like the rules where he lives. Which is fine, try to change them, it is your right. Monoculture is still a pipe dream in a historical/long view type context, however.

    I did read once, that every conqueror of Ireland ends up becoming Irish. If your culture is attractive and fun enough, immigrants may decide to assimilate, I suppose.

  44. So, to answer your question, Canadians (particularly British Columbians) get a bit of the hippy stereotype, and I’m even further along on the hippy scale than average.

    That’s cool. Good things come out of B.C. (hehe).

    I thought you were British, Knife?

  45. As long as someone’s there to make sure you don’t infringe on my rights to live as I see fit, and vice versa, who gives a flyin’ fuck what our respective values are?

    That is a value.

    No, that doesn’t sound like mentioning Dred Scott in a political debate at all…

    What an odd out of the blue comment.

    Dred Scott was technically a victory for multiculturalism, and the American Civil War was anti-multicultural. The North did infringe on the South’s “culture”, and the “house divided” speech is rather anti-multicultural…

  46. Tell that to Canada.

    Actually, in a way, multiculturalism has been the source of one of Canada’s biggest problems in the past 40 years; Quebec separatism. A thankfully shrinking portion of the Quebec population has been agitating for Quebec to separate from Canada in order to preserve their French culture from “Les Anglais” (The English). In the 60’s a terrorist group , the Quebec Liberation Front (FLQ), committed a string of violent acts to help whip up a civil war in order to facilitate Quebec’s “nationhood”. One cell was apprehended while plotting to blow up the Statue of Liberty (Americans were as much of a threat to their culture as English speaking Canadians). As recently as 2001, a former member of the FLQ firebombed three Second Cup franchises because of its English name.

    Many Quebecers have an unhealthy hatred of immigrants as they are seen as another barrier to Quebec independance, since they vote overwhelmingly for Federalist parties and against separation in the 2 referendums that have taken place. In fact the Premier of Quebec (our version of a governor) blamed the seperatist loss in the most recent referendum on “money and the ethnic vote” (49.42% of the votes cast were in favor of Quebec’s independance, with 60% of French speaking Quebecers voting in favor). I’m sure that much of this can be blamed on racism, but there is the legitimate concern that the immigrants are thwarting the political aspirations of native born Quebecers.

    Also, to a lesser degree, there have been issues with the large number of Asian immigrants that have settled in British Columbia. Some wags have taken to calling Vancouver “Hongcouver”.

  47. Sorry to burst the bubble on Canada being a “stable” multicultural society, but I guess you haven’t heard of Quebec seperatists, which composes the national political party Bloc Quebecois and the provincial party Parti Quebecois. These are large, powerful parties in the very populous province of Quebec.

    There was a referendum in 1995 in Quebec about seperating, and the remain with Canada vs seperating vote was about 51%-49%. Quebec seperation is an issue at every federal election.

    We also have huge native Canadian issues (recently a long protest in southern Ontario near Caledonia where there was issues between a development corporation and native Canadians, I didn’t follow iit closely, so I can’t comment specifically, but from what I did hear, I don’t think it was handled very well by the province including the police and the justice system, but I admit I don’t have specific evidence of it).

    Sorry I don’t have time to expand on these points, and I’m not trying to prove that multiculturalism is bad, and this really has nothing to do with feminism, but don’t put Canada on the multicultural pedestal without knowing what you are getting into!

  48. The way I see multiculturalism is only learning about other cultures, not necessarily taking on their values. The only true way to resolve conflicts is understanding each other, whether we are talking about a tiff between best friends, or wars between nations.

    Unless you are a completely closed self sufficient society then multiculturalism will have great value for you. Finland is not, so understanding it’s neighbors, trade partners, political allies and enemies etc means that they must be multicultural to some extent.

    The way I see multiculturalism is that all of us are world citizens and I think that if you live in an insulated community you will be at a disadvantage. Tuomas, even you are multicultural because either you take the initiative yourself and learn about other cultures, whether you agree with them or not; or your education, media, tourists, visits to other countries, etc etc etc made you aware of differences.

    I think the first thing that people have to understand about any culture is that their practices arose in order to create a stable society. It worked for them for whatever reason at the time. You would have to look at that reason and whether it worked then and is still working for them to make a value judgement. I tend to look at cultures and see what part of their practices are subjugating people within that culture. I do not agree with those practices and this does not mean I agree with monoculturalism. It means I don’t think that you should throw out the baby with the bathwater.

    All people adapt, so no culture is ever a constant. Multiculturalism is important simply because you may learn something that will make your own life, government, nation better from another culture. For example democracy did not spring up intuitively in all the democratic nations of the world, so they adapted what they learned from another culture, decided it would work better for them than their past government, and fought for change.

  49. Im not saying the force is applied to them. Oh, quite the contrary, considering the benefits welfare state offers. I’m saying they are being forced on the existing population. Just check the laws against “racism and xenophobia” in some European countries, It’s pretty hard to oppose it when it fact it is illegal.

    Tuomas, you keep saying that immigrants are being “forced” on the existing population. WHO is forcing them on the existing population?

    Ain’t the UN. Each country takes care of its own immigration laws, and in a democratic country, those laws will be passed by a representative government. If the population doesn’t like it, they can vote out the government and try to get a new one that will restrict immigration. Evidently, the existing population of Europe has not made an effort to stop immigration, so OH MY GOD IT’S COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!!!!

    You should also remember the rather large unemployment in Europe, complete with lack of uneducated workplaces (proper for fresh immigants from third world countries). You should also analyze whether some immigrant groups have higher than 50% unemployment rates, especially in the enriched ghettoes.

    Funny, here in the US, Muslims (many of whom are recent immigrants, or within the past generation or two) have family incomes greater than the national average, but they’re also far more integrated into society at large than Muslims in Europe are and not put into “enriched ghettoes.” Europe has a huge structural problem with immigration, education and unemployment.

    Point taken about the Quebecois, but French, English and Native Canadians are not the only ones in Canada. And even if there are rumblings about new immigrant groups — such as there are in the US — the society is able to absorb them, eventually.

  50. Think of the history of England: it’s one damn group of conquerors/immigrants/conquered after another. It’s like that in EVERY nation. It is impossible to be monocultural for ANY significant amount of time.

    The history of England isn’t exactly happy, in other words.

    The way I see multiculturalism is only learning about other cultures, not necessarily taking on their values. The only true way to resolve conflicts is understanding each other, whether we are talking about a tiff between best friends, or wars between nations.

    I don’t see that as multiculturalism, but I see value in that.

    The way I see multiculturalism is that all of us are world citizens and I think that if you live in an insulated community you will be at a disadvantage. Tuomas, even you are multicultural because either you take the initiative yourself and learn about other cultures, whether you agree with them or not; or your education, media, tourists, visits to other countries, etc etc etc made you aware of differences.

    Oh, I do take that initiative. I also have a strong national identity, which IMO is healthy, but can be unhealthy when it comes with supremacism (my culture is better than yours) or herrenvolk syndrome. My argument is actually more like: To maintain multitude of cultures, there must be monoculturalism in local level. Ask the Native Americans whether they thought welcoming the Europeans was a grand idea. It is also a well-known fact that drawing national boundaries arbitrarily with no regards to tribal allegiances in Africa as a result of Imperialism has wrought much suffering and civil wars.

    The terminology of “multicultural” and “monocultural” is certainly problematic. It is doubtful that people are speaking of the same thing here. There was plenty of trade, intermarriage etc. between different cultures even before the idea of academic multiculturalism. Monoculture does not mean isolation, nor is total monoculutre achievable without totalitarian measures.

  51. Tuomas, you keep saying that immigrants are being “forced” on the existing population. WHO is forcing them on the existing population?

    The EU.

    Europe has a huge structural problem with immigration, education and unemployment.

    It certainly has. Which is why immigration must be limited, among other things.

  52. And NOBODY moved to Europe before the EU, right?

    You’re so full of shit.

    Of course they did. Such as Britain, France and Netherlands. But the point is that with EU nominally independent nations no longer have a right to control their own immigration policies fully, as when an illegal border crosser in Ceuta gets Spanish citizenship then he also has free access to all member states of EU.

    I think EU is based on the false premise that all European countries have much in common. We don’t.

  53. Again, Tuomas, the decision to join the EU was made by the countries themselves, not the EU, and that decision can be revoked. So adhering to the EU’s policies is voluntary and the will of the people.

    But the point is that with EU nominally independent nations no longer have a right to control their own immigration policies fully, as when an illegal border crosser in Ceuta gets Spanish citizenship then he also has free access to all member states of EU.

    My god, is there no stopping the brown wave?

  54. Again, Tuomas, the decision to join the EU was made by the countries themselves, not the EU, and that decision can be revoked. So adhering to the EU’s policies is voluntary and the will of the people.

    Sure, and many arguments that later turned out to be lies were made by politicians who favored this. By a very small margin on majority, and as EU permeates all aspects of society, getting out becomes increasingly difficult. Not in a small part because EU has a history of criminalizing and banning Anti-EU political parties.

    Hey, I guess criminalizing abortion is ok if its the will of the people, too.

    My god, is there no stopping the brown wave?

    Snark snark.

  55. I’m sorry, are you seriously complaining about a slim majority voting for EU admission to someone who has had to have a man who lost the popular vote as president for the past six years? Compare and contrast: slim majority for admission — not forced; lost the popular vote and installed by the Supreme Court in a very shaky decision — forced.

    So you admit that all of your arguments that this is something “forced” on Europe are without foundation?

    Moreover, Tuomas, with your example of an illegal border crosser who obtains Spanish citizenship and then can move anywhere within the EU countries, you show yourself to be more concerned with the color of the immigrant’s skin than with illegality or a different culture. You’re not kicking up a fuss, for example, at the idea that Spaniards might decide to move to Finland; you’re pissed off that Spain might grant citizenship to someone “undesirable” and give them the right to move to Finland.

  56. I’m sorry, are you seriously complaining about a slim majority voting for EU admission to someone who has had to have a man who lost the popular vote as president for the past six years? Compare and contrast: slim majority for admission — not forced; lost the popular vote and installed by the Supreme Court in a very shaky decision — forced.

    So you admit that all of your arguments that this is something “forced” on Europe are without foundation?

    The 2000 election in the US was a disgrace. Forced, partly yes, as the Media is essentially a relic of post-war appeasement towards Soviet Union, that criminalized “anti-communist activities” and correspondingly demonized patriotism (because patriotism is inherently opposed to Stalinist imperialism).

    Freedom of press is a foundation of democracy. Without that….

    Moreover, Tuomas, with your example of an illegal border crosser who obtains Spanish citizenship and then can move anywhere within the EU countries, you show yourself to be more concerned with the color of the immigrant’s skin than with illegality or a different culture. You’re not kicking up a fuss, for example, at the idea that Spaniards might decide to move to Finland; you’re pissed off that Spain might grant citizenship to someone “undesirable” and give them the right to move to Finland.

    Well, I’m not particularly happy about Spaniards either, but the difference in cultures and values is much more pronounced with the Third-worlder, who happens to be black more often than not.

  57. FTR, I was originally somewhat enthusiastic about the EU (IIRC I couldn’t vote yet), it seemed to have many positive aspects. Unfortunately it has proven to be highly bureaucratic, corrupt, anti-freedom institution so I have changed my mind.

  58. I am tired of people always accusing feminists of being racist. I’m not saying there aren’t racist feminists, but whenever I read about racist violence, it’s always done by reactionary young MEN whose politics, I’m betting are neither progressive nor feminist.
    It was mentioned upthread (KnifeGhost at #28), but I really dislike this idea that Western white feminists are the only ones who criticize misogynist cultural practices. I finished reading “The Sewing Circles of Herat” (about Afghanistan from the 1980s-early 21st century) and there were many moving stories about Muslim Afghan women who hated the Taliban and risked their lives to defy their repressive policies.
    I don’t think anyone has mentioned this gender and race intersection, but women of color who criticize their oppression by men in their culture are often accused of racism. Alice Walker and Amy Tan incited a lot of controversy among, respectively, black and Chinese men who thought that their negative depictions of men of color in their books did their race a disservice. Or for an extreme and obviously different example, Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
    As for the whole (Muslim) immigrant dilemma, I understand that a lot of leftists/seculars esp. in Europe are alarmed about their conservative cultural practices. However, I think racism is also in play here, I mean you do read about the calls for white women to have more babies so we don’t end up with a *gasp* nonwhite majority. And while I don’t excuse any violence committed, I’d guess that racism in Europe would alienate a lot of young people of Middle Eastern descent.

    Jill at 16 – in the first FDL/Culture Kitchen thread, I linked to a post from Trex about Asian women as sex objects that definitely did not seem feminist to me.

    Tuomas – I didn’t know you grew up in Finland. Eek! I feel like such a dork for lecturing you about it 🙂

  59. Tuomas – I didn’t know you grew up in Finland. Eek! I feel like such a dork for lecturing you about it 🙂

    Heh :). No problem (I feel like a dork every time I lose my temper and write something spectacularly stupid, which fortunately is very rare as I don’t have a temper. At all. :P)

    I’m still in Finland, I’ve just moved a bit towards North for education.

  60. Jill,

    Interesting answers: thanks for this thread.

    I generally agree with much of what you wrote. think feminism is occasoinally too willing to allow people to “devise their own solutions”. though, as some have said. probably no point on elaborating on that as others have done so.

    I think you put the “difference /= bad” issue well: it’s not AUTOMATIC. In practice though it gets harder to apply right.

    I think that difference often IS perceived as bad. Which is not surprising: In many cases, folks have settled on current practices by deciding what they think is best. Ergo, anything else is NOT what they think is best and is therefore “bad”.

    Still, it’s a stupid idea to think different is always bad, because if you don’t look at and examine the different culture in question, how would you know? They might have an idea that you didn’t think of. OTOH, if you’re doing a good job thinking of things on your own and changing your own culture to match, the chances of different=bad get pretty high.

    There then develops the problematic racism/culturism issue: If one don’t like the practice of culture X and think is it bad, is one racist? It’s especially apposite when one ties together race and culture which many folks are wont to do. Feminism runs into that problem IMO when it deals with cultures in which women are comparatively poorly treated. I think when writing from a feminist perspective (as opposed to a cultural relations perspective) it is entirely appropriate to focus on the feminist aspect, even if that means that one is, to some degree, condemning a culture in a manner that would be inappropriate in other contexts.

    The other issue that sometimes tweaks me is that there does seem to be a generic “multicultural is good” concept that gets overused. I tend to believe multiculturalism IS generally good… but these days in the liberal world I suspect it’s swung a bit too far. People are way too willing to allow a practice in the name of multiculturalism that they would/should condemn without the “multicultural bulletproof vest” on, so to speak.

  61. What isn’t fair game is . . . believing (with little evidence) that American or Western culture is and has always been superior to all other cultures when it comes to human rights norms.

    Leaving aside the “has always been” and just looking at “is”: outside of Western Europe and the major English-speaking countries, is there any country whose culture is superior to the U.S. from a feminist point of view, in the opinion of anyone posting here?

  62. However, I think racism is also in play here, I mean you do read about the calls for white women to have more babies so we don’t end up with a *gasp* nonwhite majority. And while I don’t excuse any violence committed, I’d guess that racism in Europe would alienate a lot of young people of Middle Eastern descent.

    Actually the large unchecked assumption in this (white women must have more babies) is that populations must grow for economic reasons (and thus if native women aren’t breeding, then we need immigrants, apparently), a theory that Japan and China violate. And on the other side, many African countries, such as Somalia which isn’t exactly a thriving economy.

    At best, theories that conflate more babies=economic prosperity confuse correlation with causation, at worst, they are just not true. And there are the environmental issues, of course (unlimited population growth just isn’t plausible*, altough I don’t think we’re overpopulated at least yet).

    In short, I don’t think that increased immigration is necessary even when white women are having babies under the replacement rate, altough many business interests usually claim otherwise. But then, Adam Smith had some choice words about political suggestions from businessmen.

    * Without terraforming Mars and beyond, which isn’t all that plausible at least yet. Or at least, we shouldn’t place all our trust on that hope.

  63. Tuomas – I did read recently that in Japan, a local government considered paying women to have babies and that they’re worried about the low fertility rate and the fact that the people there live to be insanely old. However, in the US and also in Europe (although I don’t know as much about European politics), a lot of the people who advocate for white women to have more babies are also anti-immigration. In the US, alarmists such as Pat Buchanan and Lou Dobbs see the end of a white majority in the US as the death of Western civilization. Although I obviously can’t cite any sources, I’m betting that if I – the grandchild of American citizens, English speaking and not white – had ten kids, many of these “fertility advocates” would hardly be thrilled.

  64. I did read recently that in Japan, a local government considered paying women to have babies and that they’re worried about the low fertility rate and the fact that the people there live to be insanely old.

    Obviously a negative population growth (population decrease) can not be too steep, otherwise compromises have to be made on care of the elderly.

    There is also — always — “The more of us so we will take over the world by numbers” -tendency that is basically a Prisoners Dilemma (because if all groups do that , we’re all fucked up pretty bad, whereas if no one does that things will go smoothly. But of course, if some group does that while others play nice and do not breed, that one group will gain a benefit, at the expense of others and probably on the inviduals therein too).

    However, in the US and also in Europe (although I don’t know as much about European politics), a lot of the people who advocate for white women to have more babies are also anti-immigration.

    Indeed they are. This is probably due to
    1) The unchecked assumption on babies=prosperity I mentioned
    2) Opposition to reproductive rights/choices
    3) Opposition to immigration due to racism, culturism or security issues
    4) Combination of the above

    Although I obviously can’t cite any sources, I’m betting that if I – the grandchild of American citizens, English speaking and not white – had ten kids, many of these “fertility advocates” would hardly be thrilled.

    I don’t think they would be, too.

  65. And what if these local people don’t see a problem, and don’t want any solutions beyond “let’s keep our tradition”? Shall we close our eyes and wish upon a star that they will change their mind?

    How long should we be patient and hope that they can change?

    Forever, unless it’s affecting you. If nobody in their community sees a problem, it’s none of your fucking business. But such situations never exist. There’s always a minority of dissidents in any community, and they always have an effect on community politics.

    Tuomas, before we deal with your semicoherent blatherings about your fantasy “monoculture,” you need to define your terms. What do you mean by “monoculture”?

  66. Well, I’m not particularly happy about Spaniards either, but the difference in cultures and values is much more pronounced with the Third-worlder, who happens to be black more often than not.

    Again with the incoherence. Previously you said monocultures wouldn’t be boring because people are individuals, and therefore have different values and perspectives even if they belong to the same culture.

    And yet, you’re claiming that there’s a huge difference in values between a third-worlder and a Spaniard.

    You can’t have it both ways. Either culture affects perspective (which it obviously does), which means that a multicultural society, with a variety of perspectives, is more likely to have cultural tensions and possible resulting instability but also more likely to come up with creative and ingenious solutions–OR culture does not significantly affect perspective (an idiotic thing to say, but let’s accept it for the sake of argument) and therefore monocultural societies are as good as multicultural ones, BUT it also wouldn’t matter much if someone from one culture immigrated to a different one.

  67. And Jill, Tuomas’s definition problem (while it’s especially relevant to him because of his claims about mythical “monocultures”) applies to this whole debate about multiculturalism vs. feminism. What is culture? What constitutes a culture as separate and distinct from other cultures? Can there be such a thing as “women’s culture”–that is, can oppression of women be looked on as cultural imperialism?

  68. the ironic thing, of course, is that not only is Finland not monocultural, but some of its finest hours have come about in order to defend minority cultures.

    as it happens i was born and raised in Finland, left it at the age of 25, and have now spent better than half a decade in the US. (specifically, in parts of the US that happen to be quite similar to northern Europe. IOW, my culture shock was only moderately confusing, not outright debilitating. most of the time, anyway.) i think i could make a decent argument — out of my own experience alone — that Tuomas simply cannot know what he’s talking about; the problem is, of course, that he wouldn’t believe me. and the only way to convince him would be to give him a few years’ worth of culture shock, which unfortunately isn’t doable over the ‘web.

    it’s not that a monoculture isn’t valuable — insofar as they are realistically possible, they can be quite congenial in their own way — it’s that they can’t be maintained in the face of individual liberty. unless personal movement is banned and close, narrow national borders are rigidly enforced (and how will trade occur then?), cultures will necessarily mix, and some level of multiculturalism is not only necessary but inevitable. but i’m preaching to the choir, of course.

    assimilation on the part of immigrants is also inevitable, and likely desirable. but as the “salad bowl” society has found out, it can only go so far. enforced and total assimilation isn’t compatible with liberty either.

    …i grew up in a sleepy dairy-farming community, population 2,000, so insular that i didn’t even notice the language spoken was a national minority until well after i was in school. yet here i am, tossing around fifty-cent vocabulary like “individual liberty” as though it was my birthright. i have clearly assimilated into american society… and it has likely done me a power of good.

  69. Forever, unless it’s affecting you. If nobody in their community sees a problem, it’s none of your fucking business. But such situations never exist. There’s always a minority of dissidents in any community, and they always have an effect on community politics.

    Exactly.

    When their viewpoint is suppressed, and Multiculturalists will find plenty of excuses to this, such as the lovable concepts of “false consciousness” “race traitor” “self-hating man/woman white/black” etc.

    is more likely to have cultural tensions and possible resulting instability but also more likely to come up with creative and ingenious solutions

    To what? Do you have some evidence to that theory?

    Again with the incoherence. Previously you said monocultures wouldn’t be boring because people are individuals,

    Yes…

    and therefore have different values and perspectives even if they belong to the same culture.

    Don’t blame my supposed incoherence for your non sequitur and comprehension problems.

    (and how will trade occur then?),

    Well, yeah. If you block immigration, trade will stop completely.

    Or not.

  70. Come to think of it, my answers were kind of vague and not really responsive.

    The Grouch:

    What I meant that with shared, but not identical values and similar, but not identical values there is room for invidualism, and variance in human character and personality. A shared cultural framework does not preclude invidualism.

    nobody special:

    and some level of multiculturalism is not only necessary but inevitable. but i’m preaching to the choir, of course.

    assimilation on the part of immigrants is also inevitable, and likely desirable. but as the “salad bowl” society has found out, it can only go so far. enforced and total assimilation isn’t compatible with liberty either.

    As I understand multiculturalism, it outright rejects assimilation. This, of course, is what is problematic in this: Definition.

    I look back into this thread and I don’t see myself making claims about the inherent superiority of monoculture, but I can not accept the inherent superiority of a multicultural society as a given fact.

  71. As a new blogger, thanks for the link to the feminist blogs and blogsheroes sites. I’m trying to break into the blogosphere, and I hope I can update often enough to stay relevant.

    As for multiculturalism, the exchange of ideas between cultures is pertinent for a progressive moment to have a significant impact worldwide. Each culture will have its moments of looking at another culture and proclaiming its actions “wrong” in the eyes of its own idiosyncracies, but that shouldn’t impede cultures coming together and agreeing on changes that would make life better for men and women unilaterally. All cultures won’t implement change the same way, but that’s not an open invitation to stop progress entirely because of the sacrifice of one moral “imperative” for another.

    It’s getting hard out here for a blogger…

Comments are currently closed.