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Like a Virgin

For all the fetishization of virginity among social conservatives — the pledges, the purity rings, the purity balls — there’s little recognition that this is something only young girls and young women are supposed to be concerned about. Nobody really gets excited about adult women keeping their virginity — possibly because social conservatives expect women to marry young.

But there are a significant number of adult women who are still virgins into their 20s and 30s, and not all of them are trying to hang onto their virginity. In fact, many of them would really, really like to lose it, but as they get older, they find that more and more, they’re viewed as freaks who have something wrong with them, who might get too attached or who might invest too much in the experience:

When Amanda was 26 years old she found herself in a familiar but awkward situation: She was still a virgin and the guy she had been dating for three months didn’t know it. She wasn’t ready to sleep with him yet, but she was close, real close. One night they were at his house, making out on the couch, when he asked her, “When’s the last time you had sex?” The question was blunt and unexpected. She didn’t know how to answer, and she didn’t really want to. “One year? Two years?” She didn’t respond. “Don’t tell me you’re a virgin?” he blurted as he abruptly pulled away. “No offense, but most people do that in high school,” he told her. He acted like a victim, she says four years later, telling her that none of his friends would ever sleep with a virgin, that he’d already slept with two and would never do it again. About a week later they went to the movies together, and afterward, he walked her to the car. She leaned in to kiss him and he backed away, “like I was some disgusting object.”

And the next time Amanda got into a similar situation with a guy, the same thing happened, albeit with less taking on the victim role. Instead, he said some understanding things and said he’d call her the next day — and then didn’t. Amanda finally lost her virginity at age 30, but only after deciding that she wasn’t going to disclose that she was a virgin. Even so, when she told him later, he said he’d suspected something like that.

(As a side note, am I the only one who’s a little creeped out that these guys asked her when she last had sex? That’s really damn nosy. I make it a policy never to ask a partner how many partners he’s had or how long it’s been since he had sex. It’s rude, and none of my business (unless there’s a current partner who’s being cheated on). In any event, people often volunteer that stuff.)

Some people may think Amanda is unique, maybe even a freak. But the fact is, there are a surprising number of women — smart, savvy and attractive women — who still haven’t lost their virginity into their 20s or 30s. According to a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report, 7 percent of unmarried women between ages 25 and 29 have never had sex; neither have 5 percent between 30 and 34 and 4.3 percent between 35 and 39. It’s hard to say how many of these women are actually waiting until marriage, but it’s safe to assume that quite a few aren’t. This month Jane magazine is sponsoring a contest to get a 29-year-old virgin laid, a cheap publicity stunt that misses the bigger point: Why does a “funny, gorgeous” virgin need to place what is essentially an ad for sex at all? There was time when virginity was a prize, a treasure to be guarded and a badge of honor, but now, it seems that for the modern career woman virginity is nothing but a curse. What’s worse, the longer she waits the harder it is to find a guy — not just the right guy, but any guy — to do the honors. Which prompts the question, Has the sexual revolution ironically made it impossible for a mature woman to get laid for the first time?

I know plenty of women who were virgins all through college, including two of my college roommates and I. Technically, I wasn’t quite finished with college when I lost my virginity — I still had a few credits to finish up over the summer — but I felt like a freak nonetheless. And this was the case even though other women, much thinner and better looking and more socially skilled than I, were still virgins. My two college roommates — A. from freshman and sophomore year (she was three years older than I was), and L. from junior and senior year — both found boyfriends after college who weren’t freaked out by their superannuated virginity (I think neither one of them was older than 23) and did the deed with a certain amount of ceremony. And then breathed a sigh of relief that it was done with.

Me? I went to a graduation party in Boston about a month shy of my 22nd birthday and hooked up with a guy there. I didn’t tell him I was a virgin, though thanks to UConn’s showering its students with condoms and AIDS-prevention information, I made him go out to CVS and get some rather than just risk it. Had I not taken that opportunity, I would not have had another opportunity for another two years, and who knows if that would have worked out if I was giving out “I need deflowering” vibes.

The fact that the culture is hypersexualized winds up hurting virgins who are trying to lose their virginity long after their peers do. The fact that they’re still virgins confers a sort of outcast status on them and makes people wonder if there’s something wrong with them, or if they’re prudes or religious nuts.

The phenomenon of involuntary virgins, on the other hand, exists underground in liberal America, where sophisticated career women are supposed to have active sex lives and gyms offer pole dancing and stripping classes as a kind of aerobics. Where the proliferation of online dating fosters a culture of freewheeling, uncommitted hookups. Where anyone who isn’t doing it is too unhip to know better. “The culture is getting more and more permission to be sexual at any age,” says Shirley Zussman, a sex therapist in New York. “It’s almost a directive from the culture: movies, books, magazines, TV programs. Everybody is saying “Look, this is what’s going on. What about you?”

Often, of course, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with the person other than shyness, or lack of time, or simply being treated like a pariah.

When she was just 23, Laura went to a New Year’s Eve party where a discussion about sex quickly turned into a contest: Who has slept with the most people? Who has slept with the oldest person? Who was the youngest when he or she first had sex? And so on. So Laura went to wash the dishes. “I remember thinking, ‘What an idiot. I’m washing dishes at a party because I don’t want to be involved in this conversation.'” But it was probably for the best. “I remember one of the guys saying, ‘Man, if I was 24 and a virgin I think I’d go crazy. I think I’d die.’ Then some other guy said, ‘You know the Unabomber was a virgin,” and I’m thinking, ‘Oh my God, they think I’m going to turn into a sociopath because I haven’t had sex at the age of 23.'”

Oh, and of course, there’s a distinction drawn between the hot, nubile 18-year-old virgin and … well, just read this loser’s opinion:

On the men’s lifestyle Web site AskMen.com, relationship correspondent Lawrence Mitchell wrote a column in 2002 called “Should You Date a Virgin?” which advises men to stay away from virgins unless they’re ready for a committed relationship. “When we think virgin, we either recoil or go wild,” he writes. “If you must date a virgin, keep in mind” that in his opinion, “as soon as you invade her space so to speak, her emotions will intensify. She will exact certain expectations on you, whether you know it or not.” He goes on, “An obese thirty-something career woman virgin, for example, is not on the same level as a naäve [sic] 18-year-old virgin with a strict background who has never dated before,” reinforcing the stereotype that there’s something physically or psychologically wrong with a woman who is 30-something and still a virgin.

Now, certainly, having been fat throughout high school and college and therefore never dating (I got my first kiss at 20, after I’d lost sufficient weight to have been considered human), I had an excuse or explanation of sorts for why I was a virgin. Nobody wanted me. That wasn’t the case with my roommate A, who was a thin, busty blonde with a vivacious personality — and who often came into the room crying because some guy she’d thought was her friend showed his true colors and got angry and hateful with her when she wouldn’t snap to and capitulate to his desire for her, regardless of whether she wanted him. And the one guy she did want was a toxic sonofabitch who played games with her and nearly raped her in a graveyard — though when he found out she was a virgin, there among the headstones, he desisted. And, fortunately, she snapped out of her attraction for him and he got kicked out of school the next semester.

Early experience, particularly dating in the teenage years, is crucial for forming adult romantic relationships. If you’ve missed out on those (like I have), you often have trouble forming relationships (like I do). And if you’ve managed to both miss out on dating and losing your virginity as you go into adulthood, it gets to be doubly difficult:

According to a 2001 study published in the Journal of Sex Research, most people in Western society assume that a people in their mid- to late 20s have already experienced dating and sexual experimentation, an exploration that, for the most part, started when they were teens. Involuntary virgins, on the other hand, may have missed that dating phase in high school (perhaps they were buried in their books) and probably missed it in college too, so once they enter the real world, one with more adults, they start to feel left behind, according to the study by Georgia State University associate professors of sociology Denise Donnelly and Elisabeth Burgess, who surveyed 34 male and female involuntary virgins. A woman who has never had sex can start to feel alienated, like a social pariah, and the last virgin on earth (at least among her peers). This feeling can turn into a barrier to meeting a lover, and the chance that she’ll ever have an intimate relationship starts to fade away.

That’s not to say that people who did go through these experiences have it all under control. Witness the number of failed marriages and the miserable relationships. Hell, look at the pressure to fake orgasms because communication is so difficult. One of the jokes in The 40-Year-Old Virgin was that, while Steve Carrell’s character had very little experience with women, the advice given to him by his more-experienced coworkers showed that they didn’t have any more mature or nuanced view of relationships or women than he did.

Today, women are supposed to give good head, be on top, take it from behind, experience orgasm for an hour; they’re even supposed to experiment with other women. That’s a lot to swallow, so to speak. Performance anxiety can set in, which may make a woman with little to no experience avoid the situation entirely, says Jonathan Berent, a social anxiety therapist who has seen a number of virgins in their 20s and 30s. “In their early 20s they can rationalize it: ‘It’ll happen soon.’ But when they get to their late 20s their caution light is on big time. They get down on themselves and they tend to obsess,” he says. “The deal with sex and intimacy is that people will do anything to avoid being noticeably nervous. And going into a sexual scenario, if you haven’t already had one, you’re going to be noticeably nervous.”

As with a lot of sexual issues, an ability to communicate what you want and a realistic sense of what to expect are key to getting through it. If you’re 30 and still a virgin, you’re very likely to be nervous about having sex. Even if you don’t tell your partner that, he or she is likely to pick up on your nerves. But if you do tell your partner it’s your first time, all of the social baggage that goes along with deflowering a virgin suddenly becomes the partner’s problem, too. Much of it is conjecture — will this person become so utterly attached to me that I’ll be obligated to stick around long after it’s no longer good for me? My god, I just wanted a roll in the hay! But there’s good reason to worry if you’re going to hurt the person, or if you’re going to get much out of it yourself.

But another thing we have to be careful to do, as feminists, is respect the right of people, especially women, to say no to sex if they, themselves, just don’t want to have sex. Part of being sex-positive should be respecting women who remain virgins for their own reasons, or who aren’t comfortable with casual sex. If we remove the stigma from being a virgin (just as we’re trying to do with sluts), it might make it easier for women (and men) who aren’t sexually experienced by taking away the performance pressure and making it safer for them to have sex when the time comes.

UPDATE: Shakes’ Sis has more. She thinks the piece is insulting and misses an opportunity to do a good analytic job because it ignores both men and those women who aren’t in any real hurry to lose their virginity.


80 thoughts on Like a Virgin

  1. I don’t know why “casual” sex is considered such a great thing; yeah, for some, it’s a quick boink and away you go, but for many of us thinking people, things like disease and emotional fit and possible pregnancy and financial status do enter into the mix — just as they do with regards to other shared activities, not just sex — and cannot, nor should not, for our well-being, be ignored.

    (Many of the comments on that site were utterly horrid, btw.)

    Also, am I the only person who finds it odd/annoying that losing one’s virginity in one’s early twenties makes one an “old” virgin? That’s as bad as labeling a woman giving birth in her mid-thirties as “elderly.”

    (Of course, this mindset does help explain why the FDA decided to put an upper limit on their “recommended” age range for the new cervical virus. I still think they should have just recommended it for those who either test negative or have been sexually inactive, of whatever age.)

  2. Rana,

    Why the insinuation that “thinking people” do not have casual sex? Some of us “thinking people” might just happen to think differently than you do. It doesn’t make either of us more or less intelligent.

  3. Also, am I the only person who finds it odd/annoying that losing one’s virginity in one’s early twenties makes one an “old” virgin? That’s as bad as labeling a woman giving birth in her mid-thirties as “elderly”

    For men, that pretty much makes you a “fag”. So yeah it is annoying.

  4. I love this article. Even though I’m not even 20. I still hate this entire virginity bullshit and it’s something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately.

  5. Also, am I the only person who finds it odd/annoying that losing one’s virginity in one’s early twenties makes one an “old” virgin? That’s as bad as labeling a woman giving birth in her mid-thirties as “elderly”

    Heh heh heh. I’m about eighteen and *I’m* considered an old virgin for God’s sake. It might be my area, though (my old high school apparently has the highest teen pregnancy rate in NYS — or one of them). And I just don’t feel like having sex.

    Then again, when I was *fourteen* there was a huuuuge amount of pressure that I felt and all my friends felt to be having oral sex. Again, maybe it was my area. All I know is that I off and gave my boyfriend head ASAP because I felt like I was the only inexperienced person on Earth.

    I look back on it and realize how fully ridiculous it was…

  6. Amber, that’s why I said “_many_ of us” not “_all_ of us.” Note too that I presumably included you in the “us” of “thinking people,” given that you’re in the audience of people I expected to be reading that comment.

    It may not always seem like it, but I’m usually pretty deliberate in my use of qualifiers – they’re not in there just as a verbal tic.

  7. Oh, and I don’t mean my comment to be indicative of… anything. It’s just what I experience(d). I don’t think this is a normal thing.

  8. Rana,

    Okay, if that is how you meant it, then that was my bad. Sometimes it’s hard to discern tone online. I read your “many of us thinking people” as snark – as in, imagine saying it out loud with the emphasis on “thinking people” rather than “many.”

  9. Yeah, I can see how it could sound snarky, and I don’t post here often enough that my usual “tone” would be familiar. 😉

  10. I don’t know why “casual” sex is considered such a great thing; yeah, for some, it’s a quick boink and away you go, but for many of us thinking people, things like disease and emotional fit and possible pregnancy and financial status do enter into the mix — just as they do with regards to other shared activities, not just sex — and cannot, nor should not, for our well-being, be ignored.

    This sounds as if being vigilant about disease and pregnancy is somehow mutually exclusive with having casual sex. Casual sex doesn’t mean you don’t use condoms and back-up birth control, it doesn’t mean you do things that you find emotionally risky, and it doesn’t mean you can’t talk to your partner long enough to find out if you like him before having sex with him. Casual doesn’t mean indiscriminate or dangerous. Thinking people who have casual sex are not “ignoring” all the factors you mention, or finding them unimportant.

    Except for financial status – I have no idea how that fits into the list.

  11. Questions regarding sex ARE appropriate (in many circles) before you have sex. I.e. if you can’t talk about it, perhaps you shouldn’t be doing it. STDs happen.

    Second: He acted like a victim, she says four years later, telling her that none of his friends would ever sleep with a virgin, that he’d already slept with two and would never do it again. About a week later they went to the movies together, and afterward, he walked her to the car. She leaned in to kiss him and he backed away, “like I was some disgusting object.”

    Well, that’s direct at least. Too direct (as he hurt her feelings) but it’s honest. Would it have been better if he had sex with her anyway? And I don’t see how he’s “acting like a victim:” why can’t he NOT WANT to sleep with a virgin? I sure don’t (not that I would now anyway) and I sure didn’t back when I was a teen.

    She’s not a “disgusting object”. And he doesn’t THINK so: He just went to the movies with her, did he not? She’s just someone that he doesn’t want to sleep with or be physically intimate with. If I thought everyone who turned down a kiss thought I was a “disgusting object” i’d have low self esteem too. I just figured they didn’t want to kiss me, either generally or just at that moment. Shit happens; not everyone you like happens to be looking for the person that you are.

    As for the “there’s nothing different about virgins as sexual partners” concept: Everyone who DOES NOT remember losing your virginity, including 1) who; 2) where, and 3) how, raise your hand. Anyone? Anyone? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with casual sex (not for me-I’m married–but for a random person) but sex with a virgin takes on a different emotional status. It’s perfectly reasonable not to be interested in that.

    There’s nothing “wrong” with virginity. It’s just a trait, albeit one that can be changed. But just like ANY trait, there will be some folks who dislike it. What’s so odd about that?

  12. What bothers me the most about virginity obsession is that virginity can be defined in so many ways for women that it’s almost illusory. Is it when the hymen is “broken”? The first time a woman has genital intercourse with a man? The first time a woman has penetrative sex with anyone? These are all valid definitions, and for me (for example) they all happened at different times.

    If we’re going with the penis-in-vagina definition of virginity loss, then I was one of the late 5% to lose it. But I had had what I considered to be sex with a number of partners before then. I never bothered to tell the first man I had intercourse with that I was a virgin, because I considered myself a sexual person already. Calling myself a virgin at that point just seemed kind of precious.

  13. This article made me really sad. I’m 21 and have never been on a date or had a kiss that wasn’t with a drunken nightclub slob who wanted anonymous sex.

    I am not fat and have never been, I am not head-turningly gorgeous but I’m not ugly either. I’m completely average in every way, physically. I don’t imagine I have glaring personality flaws, as I have no problem making and keeping friends of both and all genders. I have no clue what it is. Every time I ask someone on a date, they reject me, and no one has ever, ever asked me. The only men who have been interested in me are ones I met in fetish clubs, and they were married, and I got bored of those clubs anyway.

    And I know, intellectually, that it’s not *that* big a deal and I don’t want to have sex with just anyone (or I would’ve done it with the nightclub slobs by now), but I can’t intellectually talk myself out of getting depressed about it every single day. I am really afraid of turning bitter.

  14. Thanks Regina. The whole cultural set of luggage in this area is a product of our penetrocentric view of sex. I had a multiyear relationship that involved no PIV or PIA (with a woman who was a “virgin”). Because our sex life was so full (and so kinky), the whole virginity thing became something of a joke. When I’m tied to the bed with my SO’s fingers in my ass and a lesbian is slapping my balls, does it make any sense to call any of the people involved a “virgin”?

  15. Tally, I’m 28 and have never had sex or a “real” kiss, either. I’ve just never made it a priority in my life; I’m waiting for a relationship where sexuality expresses something instead of being an end unto itself.

    I also advocate safe sex education and hand out condoms, by the way, so no assumptions, y’all.

    Cheers,

    TH

  16. I don’t understand why having sex and being in a relationship is seen as the “be all, end of” of “adulthood”. Why should someone be considered “broken” because they don’t have these things? I always thought that being an adult was knowing what you wanted out of life, and being able to make those decisions and take responsibility for those decisions.

    I hate the idea that one has to engage in certain activities because they happen to be a certain age. In high school or college, you HAVE to have sex. When you turn 21, you HAVE to drink alcohol. Ick. That whole idea makes me sick.

    Then again, I’m a college Junior and have never kissed a boy, so, whatever.

  17. I was quite old, by the standards of both my friend and this article. It was amusing that people who had long respected some traits (temperance, wisdom, etc.) still thought that losing my virginity was required for being a “real man”. If he hadn’t been less earnest and happy for me, I’d have been steamed. As it was, bemusement was a good choice…

    Anyway, yeah, there’s a stigma. I was fortunate in my circumstances.

  18. All these things do is remind me how that because I came out as a lesbian too early, I will always be a virgin in most people’s eyes for as long as I probably live.

    Even among lesbians, there’s a weirdness there when I reveal that I have never had sexual intercourse with a man — though I have had oral sex! Oral sex is usually enough to “lose it” with a woman, but with a man, of course, it’s not. It reveals our own queer-sensitive hypocrisy, it does.

  19. Still regarding #13/ 15:

    …Which is not to say that I wasn’t relieved to jump that particular virginity-definition hurdle. I was in my mid-20’s and it was starting to seem kind of odd.

    And the part about missing the “dating phase” in high school and college, and how it affects ones perception of relationships really resonated with me. I was totally late to the dating party. When I finally had a sexual relationship that lasted 10 months, I was all, “Yes! I *can* have a real live adult relationship! Bring on the dancing girls!”

  20. Edith, that reminds me, have you read Virgin Territory? It’s an anthology Shar Rednour put together about lesbians losing their virginity. Parts of it I really liked.

  21. Early experience, particularly dating in the teenage years, is crucial for forming adult romantic relationships. If you’ve missed out on those (like I have), you often have trouble forming relationships (like I do).

    *nods* Me too. I am almost afraid that I’m permanently disadvantaged.

  22. sex with a virgin takes on a different emotional status.

    Um, for you or for her? The first guy with whom I had PIV sex had no idea that I was a virgin. Of course, if we’re using hymen breakage as the definition of losing one’s virginity, then I lost mine to an 8″ blue vibrator (affectionately referred to by me as “the big blue cock”).

    I was 24 when I had that completely unmagical first PIV sexual experience, and I was convinced that I must be the only virgin law school student in the entire nation. So, I am loving reading about other people who were virgins around my age too. I was so completely embarassed about my “involuntary virgin” status (love that term, by the way, and will use it from now on) that I never told a single person that I was a virgin at 24 until after I had finally gotten laid.

  23. Sailorman:

    Well, that’s direct at least. Too direct (as he hurt her feelings) but it’s honest. Would it have been better if he had sex with her anyway?

    The article wasn’t about what he should have done; it was about her feelings and experiences with being a virgin. That was one unpleasant experience she had.

    But, since you ask what would have been better, it would have been better for him to be man enough to make a decision based upon her as a person (not as a virgin/non-virgin), and better had he not recoiled from her when she tried to kiss him.

    Neither of these failures make him an evil person… but then, the question wasn’t “was he evil?” but about what would have been better.

  24. The attitudes of the men cited in this article also got on my tits– could they have been any more patronizing? Not wanting to get sexually involved with a 28-year-old virgin because it would “end in tears for her”? As if most relationships we have don’t end in tears at some point, and as if she isn’t an adult and capable of making her own choices about what might be *worth* a few tears.

    I think the real fear in a lot of these cases is that the earth won’t move (since one thing we all learn after having sex a few times with a few different people is that things aren’t always perfect right out of the gate and sometimes it takes some practice) and then the newly ex-virgin will roll over and go, “Is that all there is? I washed my hair for that?”

  25. “And the part about missing the “dating phase” in high school and college, and how it affects ones perception of relationships really resonated with me.”
    The irony about virginity is that it is considered “ideal” when people are young and society’s reactionaries expect them to marry young. When people get older, they seem to be looked down upon and rejected as outcasts, “freaks”, or “fags”. It is hard to believe there is still puritanism and hypocrisy in this society of ours. What’s up with that?

  26. It’s like they’re talking about meee~

    22, kissed for the first time by a non-family member this spring, a virgin by any definition possible. Fat and shy and bookish.

    And yeah, it gets really fucking old when people look at you with pity in their eyes. Particularly if they know I’m bisexual too – it’s like I’m striking out with the whole human race!

  27. Good post…this one really resonated with me as a man who was rather late to the party, so to speak, in terms of both sex and dating.

  28. It seems like you can’t be a discreet virgin anymore. I’ve grown up firmly believing that it’s nobody’s damn business what I do, but I also ran into the social reality that it was the norm is to spill the details of sexual escapades at the drop of the hat. So in high school, not only was I virgin, I was a prude if I didn’t participate in the conversation.

    I learned to talk a big game early on and once I got out of high school, no one was the wiser about my inexperience – not even the guy that I did decide to have sex with.

    Far from finding other friends who waited longer, clingy, emotional leeches, I’ve found they are the ones who didn’t have a cotton-candy unicorn idea of what the first time would be like and could deal with not only their emotions but also birth control responsibly.

    It’s sad that there are people out there who don’t understand that waiting does not mean “couldn’t get laid.” Sometimes it just means having the peace of mind and confidence in one’s self to know when the right time really is – and the stubborness to wait for that time regardless what the rest of society says is normal.

  29. i was kinda pleased with the article… im happy to say im a 20 year old virgin… ive havent really expected sex to be some magical moment where doves are flying above me and fireworks are going off everywhere… but the last thing i want is so my first time to be with some jerk off and him bragging to his friends about he just took some chicks virginity and then me after either waking up drunk with my underwear down wondering why i my vagina hurts so much or crying in the bathroom calling myself a “slut” or a “whore” i would just like it to be with someone that i trust and i know wont be a douche about it and make me feel terrible and completely regret it…

    yup.

  30. “When we think virgin, we either recoil or go wild,” he writes. “If you must date a virgin, keep in mind” that in his opinion, “as soon as you invade her space so to speak, her emotions will intensify. She will exact certain expectations on you, whether you know it or not.”

    Why is the mere fact that one hasn’t had sex at a higher than average age a sure indication that one is an emotionally needy leech? I’m one of those 30-something involuntary virgins. I didn’t date in highschool (not by choice) and as a result was pretty socially naive in college. But that was more than ten years ago. I’m an adult, and I’ve been looking after myself for a long time. If anything, I’d prefer a casual relationship – I don’t deal too well when people make too many demands on me. I’m much more comfortable with the idea of a casual fuck buddy that I trust than a deeper relationship (especially the kind of dependancy that that ass is talking about). But that doesn’t mean I’m willing to sleep with just anyone. Tally Cola is right – it’s often hard to find someone who’s interested who’s not a complete slime (although it sounds like she’s far more interested in a traditional relationship than I am).

    People have all sorts of reasons for not having sex. This stereotype of the 30 year old prude who is looking for somone to sweep her off her feet is extremely annoying.

  31. I find the pressure to lose your virginity is a really interesting phenomenon, since I never really felt it. I had sex for the first time at 19, and never felt prudish for not having been sexually active in high school. Where I went to school, it was quite the opposite — the sexually active girls (except for the ones in serious relationships) were slut-shamed a whole lot more than any virgins were ever accused of being prudish. Different backgrounds, I guess.

    But I do see how virginity becomes more of an issue as you get older and it goes from being a hot little-girl-fetish to a weird “are there cobwebs in there?” thing. And it’s about damn time that we stopped assuming that sex comes to those people who meet advertiser’s standards of physical attractiveness, and will be harder to get for those who don’t. Many of my traditionally attractive girlfriends have long dry spells — one of them is tall, blonde, beautiful, busty, immaculately dressed, intelligent, funny, and a virgin at 24. Many of the others have had sex, but feel like they aren’t able to get any for months at a time. Others don’t fit popular definitions of attractiveness, but get laid a hell of a lot more often.

    And where are the male virgins in all of this? Seems to me that men are pressured even more than women to fuck whenever possible, and as soon as possible. Where’s the hand-wringing about how the sexual revolution might have ruined their lives?

  32. Oh dear god, this just makes me feel so sad. You know? I just want people to have fun and feel good, to feel less isolated and more connected. It might happen through fucking, or it might happen through dancing and holding hands, or by building a Habitat for Humanity house together. I’m old, so all of this stuff is ancient history for me. All I want to know is, are you having fun? Is there friendship, affection, enjoyment?

    I was one of those awkward girls who never dated in high school. When I got to college (during the height of the Vietnam war, the campus crawling with SDS wannabes, all of us trying so hard to be on the cutting edge) I dumbly believed all the trash-talking of my girlfriends: oh, everyone was having sex, no one was so repressed as to be a virgin, OMG, what’s a little sex among friends – and I grimly set out to divest myself of my virginity.

    I did it, in a tent in a lovely campground, with a nice young man I’d just met, and never saw again. It wasn’t unpleasant; there was no victimization on either side. It could have been worse.

    But it could have been better. It could have been a hell of a lot more fun. Also – over the next few years, I gradually found out that all my trash-talking friends had been lying. Most of them hadn’t actually had intercourse, and of those who had, the experience had been awkward, if not weird.

    There are a lot of lessons here. One is that everyone is ready at his or her own time. It might be when you’re 18 or when you’re 30 (sorry, but I get squicked at the idea of being ready at 14). Another is that in all likelihood, your first episode of intercourse (which I mean to include fully groinal gay sex) is going to be kind of weird. Good sex takes practice. Yet another is that whatever your first episode is like, it is not dispositive. A bad or icky first encounter? It is not setting the course for the rest of your adult life. I think that a lot of young girls don’t quite get this. If you have intercourse or go down on a guy, and it isn’t fun, or it was due to bad judgment, or it just didn’t feel right…you don’t have to do it again until you’re ready. Virginity is real and significant, but it is NOT magical.

    Treat yourself and your partner with respect. Try not to worry about being cool. One of the great things about getting older is that the whole concept of being cool begins to dissolve. You get to be yourself, more and more.

  33. As someone who was involuntarily initiated into sex at an early age it is odd how I can relate to the voluntary virgins and their anxieties. I was sexually active throughout high school, but because of a misguided and childish effort at attention. Such behavior along with my natural shyness seperated me from the dating scene and still, as a 42 year old woman, who has been married and divorced and had many relationships, I can say with a certainty that I have never been in anything near the ideal or proper relationship. To have a relationship with someone who actually shares my interests and priorities, who I could confidently and proudly be partnered with for life, is an idea I’ve given up on long ago.

    Sex is sex. Relationships with persons of the opposite sex are a whole nother ball of wax.

  34. Rana: As someone who was “late to the party” and shy, let me say that for some (a lot?) of us it’s not casual sex that’s the great thing so much as the *opportunity* to engage in it if we so choose, which it seems (perhaps erroneously) is a lot easier for other people due to attractiveness, personality, whatever. It’s really frustrating to hear people who have this opportunity say that no, we really shouldn’t want this, it’s overrated – even if we suspect that they may be right, it’s patronizing.

  35. The letters to the editor on this article are interesting. A couple of things that jumped out at me (from the “Editors’ Choice” letters):

    One thing the author seems not to have taken into account when talking about men and their reactions to entering into a sexual relationship with a virgin is the immense pressure to perform and fear of what they probably perceive as an increased level of commitment required of the potential deflowerer.

    Immense pressure to perform? I would think just the opposite. If the woman has never had sex, then she has nothing to compare it to (besides masturbation, which, let’s face it, can be difficult to compete with, but I don’t think that’s what this guy is getting at). I would think that a woman would be much less likely to think that a guy is bad in bed if he’s her first. Speaking from my own experience, I didn’t realize how bad my first boyfriend was at oral sex until I received some really amazing oral sex from someone else later on.

    The guy who wrote the above is very self-centered. The reason he thinks there would be more pressure to perform when having sex with a virgin is that he thinks that the first time for a woman is some magical, amazing experience that she wants to cherish and remember forever, and he feels pressure to deliver that experience. That’s also why he thinks that she would require “an increased level of commitment” — he assumes that she must be a virgin because she’s been waiting for that perfect, special guy, when really there could be many different reasons that she is still a virgin, as shown by this thread alone.

    This leads me to the next letter that jumped out at me:

    Sex with a virgin should be a bonding experience of tender discovery for both parties…if there’s any true tenderness or affection between the two to begin with, that is.

    This made me want to gag. That guy’s comment is one big reason that I did not want the first guy I had sex with to know that I was a virgin. I don’t intend to discount anyone else’s experience, but for me, when I finally had sex for the first time, I was so ready to just get fucked and finally get over this huge freakish stigma that I had placed on myself that I didn’t really care if it was all that great or not. I had no illusions that my first time was supposed to be some mystical, earth-shattering experience. Again, I certainly wouldn’t attempt to speak for every woman, but these guys need to realize that some women just want to fuck and they just haven’t found themselves in the right circumstances. To be blunt about it, I think some of those letter-writing men just need to get over themselves.

  36. I was 20 when I first had PIV sex… but I was a card-carrying member of the Everything But Club, so really, it was like picking up a new technique more than anything else.

    Personally, I find it a little strange when people get to their 20’s and are completely inexperienced. Obviously, it’s rather unusual. Mostly though, I wonder what they did for fun in High School. 🙂 And why they never felt compelled to get naked with someone they liked. Maybe they were just more thoughtful than I was at that age.

    Maybe it’s just a matter of total hornballs not understanding how the other half lives?

  37. raging red: As someone who’s been in that situation, I did feel an intense pressure to perform, not because I expected it to be some magical soul-bonding thing (okay, maybe I did – I was young and naive, and had intense feelings for the woman in question, whereas she “just wanted to get it over with”), but because, as Sailorman pointed out, people *do* tend to remember their first times, and I wanted there to be a second, which I suppose is selfish.

    Kim: as someone who was in the Nothing at All Club until college – while I’m sure there are some relatively asexual people out there too, in my case it was lack of opportunity rather than lack of desire (and part of the lack of opportunity is the assumption that “oh, they just aren’t interested in that”).

  38. Interesting reading. I’m an “old virgin”, I guess — 24. Had no opportunity in HS due to being at the absolute bottom of the social totem pole. I didn’t even date; couldn’t. The handful of guys who would have dated me (and that I would have dated; I have standards too!) were already in relationships. College was better. I dated plenty, and figured out that I was mildly bisexual, and collected my first real kiss and assorted other pre-sex milestones (does anyone still use bases or am I dating myself?). But while I’m a flirt and not at all shy about it, nor particularly body-modest, I have an aversion to the idea of getting into bed with someone I don’t know well. Three-four dates didn’t do it for me.

    I vowed to “lose it” by the time I was legal to drink. Failed. Graduation. Failed. Just wasn’t willing to sacrifice the whole “must be friends first” thing for the sake of getting rid of the big bad V status. But after a while, it becomes an obstacle to losing it; I’ve found myself in more than one relationship that fizzled because we’d hit the point where sexual experience came up and I was too shy to admit that I was still a virgin. At this point I’m strongly considering going the “friends with benefits” route and climbing in the sack with someone I’m not romantic about, just to get over it already.

    And then I think, Jeez, how sad is that? Why should I have to do that? Can’t win, I guess.

  39. At this point I’m strongly considering going the “friends with benefits” route and climbing in the sack with someone I’m not romantic about, just to get over it already. And then I think, Jeez, how sad is that? Why should I have to do that?

    You’re asking two questions. My opinion on the last one: You shouldn’t “have to” do anything. My opinion on the first: Don’t rule it out? Friends with benefits is not a bad way to figure out what’s on in bed and what isn’t. I’m not saying that works for everyone and if you don’t think it works for you, well, you know yourself better than I do. But I don’t think “friends with benefits” is automatically “sad,” I guess. I’d have been a mess without it. Done right it’s all fun, low pressure.

    What I wouldn’t advocate is doing FWB “just to get over it already.” What bugs me about this whole issue is that virginity shouldn’t be a stigma anymore than “promiscuity” should be. These things are personal, or they should be; instead, in our society, they’re magazine fodder. Can’t wait until it’s an episode of Dr. Phil or Oprah, if it hasn’t been already.

  40. I had sex for the first time at 19, and never felt prudish for not having been sexually active in high school. Where I went to school, it was quite the opposite — the sexually active girls (except for the ones in serious relationships) were slut-shamed a whole lot more than any virgins were ever accused of being prudish. Different backgrounds, I guess.

    DEFINITELY different backgrounds, and generations too. I was the only 15-year-old virgin at my table (of three other 15-year-old girls) in sophomore Biology class, and don’t think I didn’t hear about it. Like, daily, but with a grudging admission at semester’s end that “Actually, that’s kind of cool.”

    Sure, now you tell me, after weeks of drumming it into my head that I’m a total prudish freak whom no one will ever love.

    This was in 1984, though. AIDS among heterosexuals was nearly unheard of, and no one had figured out that it was caused by a virus which anyone not on guard against sexually transmitted diseases could get. It’s just terrific how for so long heterosexuals could shrug off chlamydia, gonorrhea, syphilis, and herpes, but oh no, AIDS! Among its many other wonderful gifts, it definitely brought back slut-shaming full force.

  41. Lets start with the ” can’t win for losing” . Like sex ,have it outside of male fantasy sexbotness ( and by sexbotness we mean Maxim/Cosmo approved sexbotness and not the fun stuff involving BDSM and wax and mmmmmmm mmm goodness ) DIRTY WHORE !!! Don’t have sex, don’t conform to beauty standards, aren’t super freaky ( and by freaky we mean Maxim/Cosmo approved not Rick James style), don’t believe Sex&the City was a dream life FRIGID PRUDE!!!!!!!! I stand with the whores . I stand with the prudes. I advocate us getting together and having fun.

    I’m 22 and virginal for many reasons. I am also a kinky bitch with hands of magic.Yes some are ” body image related. But a lot have to do with not having this large amount of leisure time that people think is all over in their teens and 20’s. High school and college weren’t “social” places for me . Yeah I was buried in books BECAUSE I HAD TO BE. As young as 10 I had academic obligations that involved four hours of commuter time in a addition to large amount of study time. I had family issues that needed me to be home . I wasn’t then or now about to sleep with ANYBODY who would be offended at me being honest about my sexual history or didn’t fell comfortable with. Hence still unpunched on the Vcard

    I have counseled people MUUUUUUUUUCH more active than me and seem to do it well they keep asking. For LOTS of people life isn’t fun and games and exploring . For those who it is GREAT yeah for you ( and I mean that honestly) , wish more folks had that opportunity. For some of us its not that easy,it’s not a party , and if I read one more article about how odd people are who don’t get to lead “leisurely,commercial,boilerplate existances” FLAMES .. the side of my face and and and the burning and me with the stabbing and the blood and needing charachter witnesses ( God I miss Madeline Khan)

  42. @Kim:

    Personally, I find it a little strange when people get to their 20’s and are completely inexperienced. Obviously, it’s rather unusual. Mostly though, I wonder what they did for fun in High School. 🙂 And why they never felt compelled to get naked with someone they liked.

    That’s the sort of thing that annoys me, and makes me depressed. I haven’t felt a lot of *real* pressure from others to lose my virginity, especially not during high school (when clearly I was too acne-addled for anyone to want to sleep with me), but holy crap, of course I wanted to be naked around someone I liked. Of COURSE I felt compelled to do that, no one felt compelled to do it with me. I had fun in high school, I went to parties and, in fact, hosted most of the parties (I was sort of legendary for that), and somehow I was inadvertently responsible for getting everyone *else* laid by giving them a place to hook up at (as well as a place to get drugs and alcohol). I was actually popular, just not by having sex. University was exactly the same, except there was a little more pressure, as more people were having casual sex, and since I started at 17, many were way older than me.

    Having said that, people are mostly usually shocked when they find out I’m a virgin, which also pisses me off. They always assume it’s some weird religious things on my part, which makes me feel like even more of a freak, because it was certainly not my choice to remain a virgin and completely date-less and boyfriend-less into my 20s. Most people assume I’ve had tons of sex, which really makes me wonder what’s so wrong with me that I haven’t.

    And hell, now I’m crying.

  43. Add me to the list – I was old enough to drink before I even made out with anyone, and 25 before PIV sex. In a way it was by choice, because there weren’t many guys around that I was really interested in (small-town frat boys = not attractive) and I never met anyone I really felt comfortable enough with to want to get intimate with until I was old enough to feel more comfortable with my body. I always thought of myself as chubby and freakish and so focused on other things like school and creative pursuits right up through college. The funny thing is that now, if I show people pictures of me in high school, they comment on how thin I was! It blows my mind how out of proportion my mental image of myself was at the time. Now I’m genuinely “chubby” but more comfortable with my body and can wear clothes that aren’t tent-like (boy, did I jump on the grunge train in high school, it gave me some bulky layers to hide behind).

    I totally sympathize with the anxiety of being a 20-something virgin. It is awfully awkward to be inexperienced when you’re dealing with partners who have been sexually active themselves for 5, maybe 10 years! Some of them are happy to have left behind the fumbling-around-ness and I’d wager most of them don’t have the patience required to deal fairly with an inexperienced partner. The first guy I tried it with sure didn’t. He seemed like a sweetheart out of bed, but was way too focused on getting to the finish line for me to relax/enjoy it and it ended up being a disaster. Fortunately, when I did meet a guy that I was truly compatible with he was very understanding and patient with me and we ended up having a wonderful sexual relationship. So I’m actually pretty happy with the way things turned out.

  44. It’s really frustrating to hear people who have this opportunity say that no, we really shouldn’t want this, it’s overrated – even if we suspect that they may be right, it’s patronizing.

    That’s true. No disagreements here.

    However, sexual experience isn’t even necessarily a matter of who has or has not had an “opportunity.” Note, for one, that the woman in the article did indeed have several “opportunities,” which did not pan out. Note, too, that sometimes one’s in a position to do something, but doesn’t, for whatever reason (second thoughts, too tired, sudden bout of weirdness, too drunk, out of condoms, whatever).

    I guess I’m having problems with the notion that PIV intercourse is so important to being an adult that the only way a person might be a virgin after their mid-20s is “involuntarily” and/or because something is “wrong” with him or her.

    A possible parallel might be if we lived in a culture where women weren’t considered adults unless they’d had at least one child before age 35, and in which many or most women had their first pregnancy in their late teens. Wouldn’t it be unfair to stigmatize the women who put off child-bearing until later, when they felt ready for it or had found a suitable partner to help?

    (For those of you who protest that sex can just be a casual thing, for simple pleasure and fun, unlike motherhood, well, that is wonderful. Enjoy. Just know that (a) it doesn’t work like that for everyone, and (b) there’s nothing wrong with people who take it more seriously. Assuming that there IS something wrong with them is beyond annoying. It is, indeed, patronizing.)

  45. I guess I’m having problems with the notion that PIV intercourse is so important to being an adult that the only way a person might be a virgin after their mid-20s is “involuntarily” and/or because something is “wrong” with him or her.

    Rana: if I gave that impression, I apologize. But I really haven’t encountered that notion so much as I have the opposite one – that someone who’s a virgin (or just not sexually active) in/after their mid-20s *must* be asexual, be waiting for marriage, or have made some other choice that precludes being sexually active. But I suppose this is a matter of perspective – we notice it more when we’re misunderstood.

    There’s nothing wrong with taking things more seriously. What I’m complaining about are the types that say “it’s not that great” not because it’s not their thing, but because they think it shouldn’t be mine. The equivalent with the motherhood example would be telling someone who wants to be a parent that kids are noisy, smelly brats, and that motherhood is overrated. That’s not any better than suggesting something’s wrong with the person who chooses to delay or forgo having children.

  46. DEFINITELY different backgrounds, and generations too. I was the only 15-year-old virgin at my table (of three other 15-year-old girls) in sophomore Biology class, and don’t think I didn’t hear about it. Like, daily, but with a grudging admission at semester’s end that “Actually, that’s kind of cool.”

    Sure, now you tell me, after weeks of drumming it into my head that I’m a total prudish freak whom no one will ever love.

    This was in 1984, though.

    And about 20 years later in 2003, I was, as far as I knew, the only 14 year old who was a virgin in every sense of the word. In the place I live in, most 12 year olds you talk to these days have had sex. I already felt unloved by everyone on the planet and I was socially awkward. I was just also coming out Catholic school and settling myself into things like, you know, not judging people by their sexual activity. And then I thought, ‘God, the last thing I want is to be out of high school and a virgin. Or God knows in college and still a virgin. I mean, what would that say about me?!’ So somehow it all figured then that I absolutely had to off and engage in some sort of sexual activity.

    My first ‘real’ boyfriend, who ended up being a fucking psycho (and possibly impotent)… behind some elementary school and playground at night. Whatever. I don’t necessarily regret it, I just wish that at 14 I could have figured out that I wasn’t as mature as I thought I was and that I needed to step the fuck back and really think shit through. My first sexual experience wasn’t *bad*, it wasn’t like when I was raped by the same guy or anything, it was just… disappointing, I guess. Could’ve been worse, though.

    Although it made a lot of conversations with friends a lot less awkward for me and I didn’t feel like such an idiot.

  47. Maybe it’s just a matter of total hornballs not understanding how the other half lives?

    I don’t know about that. I’ve been a “total hornball” pretty much since I hit puberty. I didn’t have sex until I was 18 though. And it’s not because I didn’t want it before then – it’s because I grew up in a small, conservative area where I was seen as a “freak” because I dressed funny, didn’t fit the beauty norm, was in (good god!!) advanced level classes, didn’t care about “partying”… etc. Oh and I also refused to perpetuate the stereotypes about girls and sex (ie, do it but act like you don’t want it; never talk about it; but look sexy at all costs; and so on.) So that was another strike against me.

    It wasn’t that I was a prude. It’s that where I lived was stifling my ability to be who I really am to the fullest extent.

    Thankfully, high school doesn’t last forever.

  48. Kim writes:

    Personally, I find it a little strange when people get to their 20’s and are completely inexperienced. Obviously, it’s rather unusual. Mostly though, I wonder what they did for fun in High School. 🙂 And why they never felt compelled to get naked with someone they liked. Maybe they were just more thoughtful than I was at that age.

    Trust me, I felt compelled to get naked with any number of girls when I was in high school. The problem was that they didn’t feel the same way, coupled with my awkwardness in approaching them (funny thing is, I’m a pretty outgoing guy and always have been, but in certain one-on-one situations, I get more shy). As for what I did for fun, I had a very active high school life: went out with friends, joined clubs, played Quiz Bowl and Science OIympiad (I was, and still am, a geek), fixed my car, etc. Let’s not forget I had homework to do, too. 🙂

    I didn’t feel the pressure until college. That made things harder for me, since I didn’t see any opportunities, although now that I’m older, I see that there were opportunites that I just didn’t “catch”, if you get my drift.

    As a result, I didn’t start having sex until much later than most men do. I have to confess that my first time having sex, although fun, felt more like a relief. I was eyeing that “sell-by” date that seems to exist in so many people’s minds with regards to sex and I was glad that I hadn’t spoiled by the time I met my first partner. Which is a little sad, but that’s life.

    Now in my 30s, I feel a lot more self-assured, and I’m doing the things that we’re all told you’re “supposed” to do in your 20s. Kinda like that Byrds song: “I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now.”

  49. The one thing I’m glad about this article is that it spurs conversations in the blogs that I love. I’m a child abuse survivor who has been a very late bloomer in just about every facet of adult life. I didn’t leave home to live on my own (except for college attendance) until the age of 23. I didn’t date until 24. I was a virgin until 25, and even then I finally just had to force myself to go out with some guy just to “get it over with.” I used to be such a loner that I couldn’t even deal socially with people on a platonic level, so knowing how to act with men was totally foreign.

    I’ll be turning 30 this year and while I’m a million times more comfortable in public with strangers, I still can’t quite get over that hurdle in allowing myself to get intimate with another person. So I haven’t had sex since those couple of times when I was 25. You get to a point where you believe you are the ONLY one who doesn’t do it.

    Granted, I’m a human being with all the same desires as most other people and I’m very comfortable with masturbation. I think the other aspect was that because I felt almost nothing when I did have sex, I don’t have any particular urge to go out and grab another random guy to do it again because chances are I won’t enjoy that either.

    At any rate, I do realize now that I’m not the only person in the world who’s celibate, even though sometimes it feels like I am. And I don’t want people to feel too sorry for me, because although I really dealt with some serious depression in my early twenties, I’m really happy with life right now. I’m close with friends and family in a platonic way even though I can’t quite break that final wall necessary to be in a relationship. Maybe some people are just meant to be loners.

    Sorry for the long post.

  50. I agree with Blackamazon. The same mindset is in play with slut and virgin shaming and it reminds me of the post about “The Puritanical Side of Girls Gone Wild”. In both cases, the woman refuses to be a sex object for men, whether it is because she opts out of sex (and in the cases in the comments and in the Salon article, not for conservative religious reasons) or because she chooses to initiate and enjoy sex on her own agency.
    I won’t go into too many details of my private life. But in middle school I was called ugly regularly and everyone treated me like crap. Then in early high school I was encouraged to be sexualized (not engage in any sexual activity per se, but encouraged to act like a sex object) and I got a lot of gross attention and felt very embarrassed and humiliated (see also: getting harrassed by middle aged men while not even legal). I started looking a bit better and having more confidence in late high school and college, but my history has still made me both wary and cynical.

  51. PS Thanks for the thoughtful, compassionate post zuzu and to everyone who’s left all the great comments!

  52. Kim writes:

    Personally, I find it a little strange when people get to their 20’s and are completely inexperienced. Obviously, it’s rather unusual. Mostly though, I wonder what they did for fun in High School. 🙂

    I see the smiley, and I know you’re being kind of jokey, but I’m a little bothered by this, too. I grew up as an ethnic minority, and was considered completely ugly b/c I didn’t look like everyone else. Hence, no dates, no sex, and I made it to age 18 with exactly one kiss under my belt. I’m sure I’m not the only one in this situation.
    Oddly enough, in my high school there was neither slut-shaming nor virgin-shaming. I would guess that my school was about evenly split into sexually active and not. Both were acceptable in that culture.

  53. I see the smiley, and I know you’re being kind of jokey, but I’m a little bothered by this, too. I grew up as an ethnic minority, and was considered completely ugly b/c I didn’t look like everyone else. Hence, no dates, no sex, and I made it to age 18 with exactly one kiss under my belt. I’m sure I’m not the only one in this situation.

    Definitely not.

    It’s actually pretty common among queers, I think, at least those who are out as teenagers. Which makes sense, given that you’re likely the only one in your high school.

  54. I sort of understand what the article is aiming at here, although I disagree with some of the things it says. I am eighteen, and I have had sex once in my life, and that was solely to get rid of ability to talk to unicorns. (I only did it because the guy was there and he was easy.) And, you know, it was dumb, and I disliked the fellow, and it was tremendously trashy and pretty much a bad idea in all respects, but now when people say, “hur hur you a virgin?” I can answer in the negative. I don’t know what I feel about that, honestly.

    And Rana, I don’t much like casual, random hook-ups, either, although I’ve certainly done my share of that; but when you’re a person who is incapable of having an actual relationship due to being sort of crazy, you have to take what you can get, and when that’s a casual hook-up where you’re both sort of pissed, well, that’s what happens. (As long as it’s fully consensual and neither of you are so drunk you’ve lost your ability to consent.)

  55. Personally, I find it a little strange when people get to their 20’s and are completely inexperienced. Obviously, it’s rather unusual. Mostly though, I wonder what they did for fun in High School. 🙂 And why they never felt compelled to get naked with someone they liked. Maybe they were just more thoughtful than I was at that age.

    Maybe it’s just a matter of total hornballs not understanding how the other half lives?

    *tired sigh* It’s not that simple, as others have pointed out, but thanks for the condescension.

  56. you have to take what you can get

    Not to pick on you, particularly, whimsy (because I basically agree with your overall post), but this is what bothers me about this whole conversation.

    WHY is PIV sex considered so important that ANY fuck, whether drunk/unpleasant/awkward/painful/emotionally upsetting (etc. etc.) is better than nothing?

    I honestly do not understand this. Really, truly, I don’t.

    I’m not doubting that, in our culture, it is frequently considered so. I do get that. It’s hard not to grow up in this country and not be exposed to the various (and frequently weird) attitudes people hold with regards to virgins.

    But, ultimately, I’m mystified as to the particulars. Is it something to do with how we fetishize sex? Is it that people who have had and/or enjoyed sex can’t comprehend a person who doesn’t, or hasn’t? Is it that we’re reluctant to think of such an essential biological act as something that might, perhaps, involve thought and choice, including the choice to abstain? (Obviously having sex can involve thought and choice, too, but it’s not a choice that is seen as running counter to human nature.) Is it related to how we define what it means to be an adult? Is it freighted with our own personal assumptions about values and morals and behavior, and who gets to define them and why? And so on.

    In other words, I want to move past the immediate surface understandings of why virginity is seen as freakish and undesirable after a certain point to the deeper things it reveals about how we think about sexuality, choice, personhood, etc.

    (I’m not, btw, talking about people’s desire for intimacy, or physical pleasure. Rather, I’m trying to stay focused on the notion that there is some amazing transformative quality to having a penis enter a vagina such that anyone who hasn’t had it happen must with all haste try to remedy the situation, even if it isn’t actually fun, pleasant, or emotionally satisfying.)

    So… can someone please explain this to me, hopefully while avoiding language that is either condescending or which casts virgins (or nonvirgins, for that matter) as freaks?

  57. *tired sigh* It’s not that simple, as others have pointed out, but thanks for the condescension.

    Anne, I wasn’t trying to be condescending. Mostly, I have never really cared about anyone else’s sex life. (Unless I was about to sleep with them.) If you don’t have sex, for whatever reason, that’s your business. But being a human being, I can’t help but have a biased personal opinion: which is, “Gee, that’s kinda weird. Maybe they’re just not as horny.” Doesn’t mean I hate you or will giggle when you pass me in the halls… I don’t much dwell on it.

    And I’m sure people have opinions of MY sexual habits — “what a slut!” — but who cares? It’s an opinion and they’re entitled to it. (And if they don’t want to sleep with me because they think I’ve been around the block one time too many, they’re entitled to that too. There are billions of people on this planet: a few of them are going to be willing to sleep with me. Not a big deal: life goes on.)

    Trust me, I felt compelled to get naked with any number of girls when I was in high school. The problem was that they didn’t feel the same way, coupled with my awkwardness in approaching them (funny thing is, I’m a pretty outgoing guy and always have been, but in certain one-on-one situations, I get more shy). As for what I did for fun, I had a very active high school life: went out with friends, joined clubs, played Quiz Bowl and Science OIympiad (I was, and still am, a geek), fixed my car, etc. Let’s not forget I had homework to do, too. 🙂

    Ah, well that answers that. I skipped homework and clubs. And classes for that matter. I had a lot of time to fill and a strict religious background to exorcise. 😉

  58. If you don’t have sex, for whatever reason, that’s your business. But being a human being, I can’t help but have a biased personal opinion: which is, “Gee, that’s kinda weird. Maybe they’re just not as horny.” Doesn’t mean I hate you or will giggle when you pass me in the halls… I don’t much dwell on it.

    That’s totally understandable; after a certain age it is statistically “unusual”, I suppose, not to have engaged in sexual intercourse of some kind. The point that I think folks are trying to make here is that a high sex drive (something I’m pretty familiar with) doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to be having lots of sex. Sure, it helps, but it’s only one of several factors. So I can understand being sensitive to the assumption that the reason some people have little or no sexual experience by Age X is because they don’t want it. Sometimes that is the case, but by no means always.

  59. The point that I think folks are trying to make here is that a high sex drive (something I’m pretty familiar with) doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to be having lots of sex. Sure, it helps, but it’s only one of several factors. So I can understand being sensitive to the assumption that the reason some people have little or no sexual experience by Age X is because they don’t want it. Sometimes that is the case, but by no means always.

    Precisely.

  60. Rana: I don’t think it’s so much that, as that a lot of the options that are thrown around (long-term sexual/romantic relationship, regular casual sex, etc.) aren’t available to everybody, so while their choice might seem suboptimal, they’re picking the best of what they perceive as their options. I don’t think it’s wrong for someone to choose a suboptimal sexual encounter over none at all, or for someone else to make the opposite decision.

    The idea that PIV sex is transformatively different is a different issue, and I think most people would agree that that’s not a particularly healthy outlook.

  61. I don’t think it’s wrong for someone to choose a suboptimal sexual encounter over none at all, or for someone else to make the opposite decision.

    And let’s also not forget that what is “suboptimal” for some people is capital-A Awesome for some other people.

  62. Christ this thread is an eye-opener.

    As a guy who is less than a decade away from having a movie made about him regarding this subject, I’m a little surprised (and relieved truthfully) to find out that I’m not the only one who has grappled with these questions. I’ll confess, I’m more than a little worried about how (poorly) I’m liable to perform when the time comes, but I’m well past viewing my status as a stigma.

  63. Rana, I hadn’t meant PIV sex in general; in the slang that I use, hook-up means any kind of sexual contact, from ‘making out’ on up. Like I said, I’ve only had PIV sex once just to prove that I could, and honestly wasn’t too impressed. (Although granted, most people’s first times aren’t 100% positive.) All I meant with my post was that if you’re not emotionally stable enough for a relationship, or just don’t like them at all, then casual hook-ups aren’t such a bad idea — as in, “you can take what you can get”, meaning, sexual pleasure in general, when one gets tired of oneself.

    I don’t like relationships because there are very few people I trust enough to form a lasting one. I don’t form connections with many people past a superficial kind of friendship, and so if I want any kind of sexual satisfaction from other people at all, whether PIV or oral sex or anything, it’s going to be a casual hook-up. That’s all I meant.

  64. I’m so glad for this article. I think I’m also the only one in this thread who can use the term “old virgin.” I suspect I’m the oldest virgin on the list.

    I am a 35 year old virgin. I’ve spoken about it on my blog before. Yes, I started about it for religious reasons but somewhere along the way, it became more about not being able to find anyone to be involved with and those few I was involved with were either voluntary religious virgins or weren’t the right fit for me.

    Why is the mere fact that one hasn’t had sex at a higher than average age a sure indication that one is an emotionally needy leech? I’m one of those 30-something involuntary virgins. I didn’t date in highschool (not by choice) and as a result was pretty socially naive in college. But that was more than ten years ago. I’m an adult, and I’ve been looking after myself for a long time. If anything, I’d prefer a casual relationship – I don’t deal too well when people make too many demands on me. I’m much more comfortable with the idea of a casual fuck buddy that I trust than a deeper relationship (especially the kind of dependancy that that ass is talking about). But that doesn’t mean I’m willing to sleep with just anyone.

    I have to really agree with the above. I’m quite content with my singleness. The fact that I’ve broken up with the few people I’ve dated in the last 15 years is because they were emotionally needy. I like my space; unfortunately they wanted their space to be my space. It’s hard enough to meet people and when I do they want to rush everything.

    Of course, I’ve been in Maine for two years and not a single guy in sight. Much to my mother’s disappointment.

    So, I can talk big about how I’m making the right decision for me all I want but it’s not being tested and it hasn’t been tested in ages.

  65. Well, I had a very religious and tightly -wrapped adolescence; I doubt I would have had a boyfriend in any event, since I was NOT popular or percieved, at all , as attractive (which is odd — I was very slim and conventionally pretty , but I was still the Class Dog– such is the power ot High School Social structures).

    I got out of undergrad as a virgin, and used a guy as a can opener when I was 23 — that is, I slept with a guy I had just met, who I never expected to see again, and didn’t . Great fun? Why, no. Eliminated the problem? Heck. yes.

    It didn’t mean that my next actual relationship wasn’t warty and problematic: it just meant I didn’t have to worry about having That Talk. Also exorcised a couple of ghosts — the idea you should only sleep with someone you love, for one thing . Sometimes, someone who isn’t perfect is just fine for right now. And disovering that you CAN have sex without it being a perfect loving relationship , and that yes indeed someone does want to sleep with you and that you need not die unrodgered is actually quite a relief.

    Love, or even friendship, isn’t really needed.

  66. Nice post & thread. Got me thinking about the sexual double-whammy of being a sensual and sexual person who is also a thinking and aware person – a problem I think more and more of us are stymied by as we mature. The more we know what we want, and who we want, and why, the narrower the field of potential (appropriate) partners. Our expectations rise. Or mine have, anyway – I love my busy, full life, and hate to waste time on filler, so to speak, so if it’s not hitting all the right spots (for me: spirit, body, mind, emotion), it’s not the best use of my energies. And it’s plain boring. Actual finger-drumming/list-making/occasionally funny boredom if all the right stuff isn’t there. And boredom’s no fun for me, and kind of insulting to whatever nice but not-quite-right partner is trying to make a conection of some kind with me.

    I love sex. I have had a larger sex drive than any of my male partners, and most of my female ones. And, I’ve chosen to just not go there for over a year now, and only with real caution in the few years before that, because I find myself less able to lie to myself or anyone else than I was in my twenties. What the inability to lie to myself means for me isn’t self-righteousness about casual sex or whatever – go for it if it’s truthful and fun for you – but a deep awareness that if the desire isn’t strong, mutual, and balanced in the ways I need it to be, it’s just not worth my time and effort these days.

    Does it bum me out that I’ve landed in this place right when my prime hit? Yup. In a big way. I wish I could enjoy casual sex the way I did in my twenties. But I don’t right now, and I don’t kid myself about it; even my body doesn’t lie about it anymore. It’s got to be the whole shebang to get me interested, and I don’t meet the whole shebang very often.

    So, hopefully the whole shebang will come along before my prime is completely gone and rock my intellectual, spiritual, and emotional worlds as fully as the physical (she looks at her watch and taps her foot), but until then, I’ll just have to say ‘rock on’ to those who can and ‘right on’ to those who choose not to.

    Nice to read people being honest and thoughtful about adult sexuality. Thanks, Feministe, for yet another oasis in the desert of media messages.

  67. Got me thinking about the sexual double-whammy of being a sensual and sexual person who is also a thinking and aware person – a problem I think more and more of us are stymied by as we mature.

    This still makes me uncomfortable because of the seeming implication (whether intended or not) that people who have lots of sex and/or sex with lots of different partners are not “thinking and aware” people.

    I’m just very sensitive to that kind of thing because I have heard it soooo many times from people who otherwise consider themselves to be tolerant, enlightened, liberal, etc.

  68. And Theriomorph I also want to clarify that I don’t think that was your intent at all – as your post in its entirety makes clear – but it’s just something that always kind of strikes a nerve with me, so I felt like I needed to say something.

  69. Kim, I remained a virgin and dateless through high school for a number of reasons– some were my geeky hobbies, some was the restricted pool of fellow students in advanced classes, some were my internal hangups, and some was shyness. College was difficult, because I fixated on an unavailable friend for a couple of years, and always assumed my inexperience would be less fulfilling for my partner. (Plus, having no real dates led to lack of confidence in dating altogether.)

    As a post-college adult, the fact I hadn’t found anyone in the ideal for meeting women (college years) coupled with less unstructured time made finding relationships much harder. Finally, I found a specific woman very interesting and dated for a few weeks before everything went kerblewie. Still, successfully getting a date made it seem possible (though still rare and unlikely). After a few years of maybe a date a year, I finally found Jennifer shortly after my 30th birthday.

  70. And I don’t see how he’s “acting like a victim:” why can’t he NOT WANT to sleep with a virgin? I sure don’t (not that I would now anyway) and I sure didn’t back when I was a teen.

    So Sailorman, did you have a buddy to “break in the virgins” for you, so you wouldn’t have to?

  71. Tally Cola (comment #45), I feel exactly the same way. I don’t know if it helps, but I’m in a similar position (so to speak–arggh! I’m the dirtiest-minded virgin I know). I’m 21, and I also have definitely wanted to get naked with people, but never found one who wanted to get naked with me. It really bothers me when people assume that virgins are somehow less horny than other people, as if it’s easy to get laid whenever you want.

    Personally, I want to have sex within a committed relationship (just a personal preference–casual sex is fine if that’s what someone wants, as long as they’re comfortable), and I feel like the older I get, the more serious a relationship would be, and therefore the higher my standards are, even though I don’t find many guys who are interested in me anyway. I have a much better idea of what I want now than I did in high school, despite–or maybe because of–not having had any relationships (except for one guy I had an on-and-off semi-relationship with–he was a nice guy, but really quiet and not too bright, so there was no communication at all and it was really frustrating). I wish I were in a different place in life, but I just never had the chance to have experiences that could have allowed me to get to that place.

  72. I was also a virgin through high school, for several reasons. I grew up in an extremely conservative household and my life would not have been worth living had my parents so much as suspected I was having sex. Heck, I told an ex that I had gone down on somebody in an attempt to make him jealous (it was not true), my parents found out and I was grounded for weeks, just for talking about it. Also, I saw a lot of my friends who would freak if their periods were late or had to worry about STD tests, yearly pap smears, etc… and I knew I just wasn’t ready for a sexual relationship. I didn’t date a ton, but I had male friends and a couple semi-serious boyfriends, so I could’ve had sex and I really did want to, I just wanted to wait until I knew I was ready to do so responsibly. For me, it was when I was almost 19, for other people it could be earlier or later. I never felt pressure to have sex in high school, but no one knew I was a virgin either. When it came up, I claimed a couple partners and no one bothered me for details. When I finally did have sex, it was a friends with benefits sort of situation that got more serious and he’s now my husband, so I can’t really talk about casual sex vs. non casual sex as I’ve had both with the same person. I know there wasn’t much of a difference for me. Oh, and he didn’t seem to mind the fact that I was a virgin.. we didn’t really talk about it, but just from the exchange that took place, I could tell he knew. Neither one of us made a big deal about it though.

  73. So Sailorman, did you have a buddy to “break in the virgins” for you, so you wouldn’t have to?

    Huh?? Tony, where the hell did that comment come from??

  74. I’ll confess, I’m more than a little worried about how (poorly) I’m liable to perform when the time comes

    Read a lot of sites and guides to oral and PIV sex. It makes up, IMO and IME, for inexperience by a lot.

    ;D

  75. “This might be insane troll logic, but with that many of you expressing the same sentiment isn’t it likely that there were a few of you in the same vicinity, pointing your shyness at each other? Feeling the same way but not necessarily considering each other? Like two virgins passing in the night?”

    Sure, but there’s no way to bridge the two, so the Rubicon remains uncrossed.

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