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Holocaust Cartoon Contest

Jill

This is just disgusting.

TEHRAN, Aug. 24 — The title of the show is “Holocaust International Cartoon Contest,” or “Holocust,” as the show’s organizers spell the word in promotional material. But the content has little to do with the events of World War II and Nazi Germany.

There is instead a drawing of a Jew with a very large nose, a nose so large it obscures his entire head. Across his chest is the word Holocaust. Another drawing shows a vampire wearing a big Star of David drinking the blood of Palestinians. A third shows Ariel Sharon dressed in a Nazi uniform, emblazoned not with swastikas but with the Star of David.

But according to the show’s proponents, it’s not just about anti-Semitism (although, clearly, it’s about that too).

The exhibition is intended to expose what some here see as Western hypocrisy for invoking freedom of expression regarding the publication of cartoons that lampooned the Prophet Muhammad while condemning President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran for questioning the Holocaust.

Obviously there’s a huge difference between an artist creating a cartoon of the Prophet and the leader of a country expressing doubt about the occurence of a major genocide in recent history. And I would guess that Jews around the world will not riot in response to this exhibit.

But I do look forward to seeing the conservative response, especially in light of the Muhammad cartoon controversy earlier this year. Back then, I argued that, while newspapers should obviously have the legal right to run offensive material (and to run that material without fear of violence), I think that purposely attacking one of the world’s major religions out of hate and bigotry is not the greatest idea, and it isn’t infringing on free speech to call them out on that. I found the Muhammad cartoons disgusting, offensive, and unnecessary. The Holocaust cartoons illicit an even stronger gut reaction for me. Various conservatives have emphasized the free speech aspect of the Muhammand cartoon issue, often arguing that anyone who questioned the wisdom of publishing those cartoons was a censor, or at least someone who didn’t value free speech rights. And so those brave members of the conservative blogosphere demonstrated their commitment to free speech — but not hate or bigotry, we swear! — by publishing the cartoons on their sites.

For some reason, I doubt that their love of the First Amendment will apply as strongly in this situation.

104 thoughts on Holocaust Cartoon Contest

  1. I think that purposely attacking one of the world’s major religions out of hate and bigotry is not the greatest idea, and it isn’t infringing on free speech to call them out on that.

    Exactly. I think this applies even if one takes at face value the idea that this is retributive performance art. Jews don’t deserve to be penalized with dehumanization because the same thing happened to some other group, and no one has the right to arrogate the dignity of any number of human beings in order to prove a point.

  2. Thank you, piny, you put that a lot better than I did. Retribution is not, in my opinion, usually a great strategy, not even to prove a point about values and hypocrisy.

  4. For some reason, I doubt that their love of the First Amendment will apply as strongly in this situation.

    You’re probably wrong. This is an excellent opportunity for conservatives to prove the marked difference between Jews/Secular West and radical Islam by simply noting that these events will pass without beheadings and embassy attacks.

    Various conservatives have emphasized the free speech aspect of the Muhammand cartoon issue, often arguing that anyone who questioned the wisdom of publishing those cartoons was a censor, or at least someone who didn’t value free speech rights. And so those brave members of the conservative blogosphere demonstrated their commitment to free speech — but not hate or bigotry, we swear!

    Perhaps some carry a fox’s tail in their armpit on this issue, and are hateful and bigoted. But is it relevant? For me, the issue was very simple — violent threats against some/any kind of expression must be opposed in solidarity toward Freedom of Speech. If any country is to allow (as sadly many have done) the propensity for violence to dictate the terms of acceptable speech, it is a rather chilling slippery slope, no?

  5. Also, how is denying the Holocaust retribution for a Danish cartoon contest?

    Look, the important thing is that someone else gets demeaned, okay? It’s like the saying: “An eye for an eye.” Nothing in there about the owner of the forfeit eye in question.

    To be fair, I can’t think of any racist conspiracy theories related to massive anti-Danish genocide. But it’s true: the target bespeaks a need to injure exhausted against the first, most vulnerable target at hand.

  6. Jill, this was discussed soon after Iran’s contest announcement.

    [A]n Israeli cartoonist has announced a pre-emptive unilateral anti-Semitic cartoon contest.

    Just to show them, I guess, that 1, cartoons aren’t cause for violence, and 2, we can beat them at anything.

    Note, Ace is generally viewed as a conservative, though many have claimed he is a libertarian. Whatever. He’s right of center. Also of interest may be the discussion in the comments where various well known bloggers (and commenters if you read much on the right side of the blogosphere) talk about whether or not its a good idea.

  7. Look, the important thing is that someone else gets demeaned, okay? It’s like the saying: “An eye for an eye.” Nothing in there about the owner of the forfeit eye in question.

    To be fair, I can’t think of any racist conspiracy theories related to massive anti-Danish genocide. But it’s true: the target bespeaks a need to injure exhausted against the first, most vulnerable target at hand.

    That has such a familiar ring to it. It’s almost as if it’s happened before. But … it couldn’t happen here, could it?

  8. You’re probably wrong. This is an excellent opportunity for conservatives to prove the marked difference between Jews/Secular West and radical Islam by simply noting that these events will pass without beheadings and embassy attacks.

    I think that’s what’s so interesting about this incident. It seems like such an obvious misstep on the part of the Iranian government. Jews might be disgusted at the cartoons, but we’re hardly going to riot outside Iranian embassies. It seems, if anything, to confirm the claims about Muslims being out-of-control and violent compared to Christians and Jews. I guess it could be good internal propaganda, but from an external point of view it plays right into the hands of people who hate Muslims.

    I think what they’re trying to do is to say that Westerners have taboos, so it’s hypocritical to criticize Muslims for being outraged about their own violated taboos. They would say that the fact that the cartoons insult Jews is incidental: the point is that they’re tweaking a major Western taboo. But since they’ve made the comparison, they invite people to point out the different responses to taboo-tweaking actions. You don’t even have to get into the question of whether mocking a religious figure is analogous to mocking a genocide: you can just say that whereas Jews criticized, Muslims rioted.

    I am having a hard time getting worked up about this, I think because it’s so transparent that the whole point of the exercise is to get me worked up. It’s disgusting, and it confirms what we already knew about the people currently in charge in Iran. But I can think of a lot of more-productive targets of my outrage.

  9. I think what they’re trying to do is to say that Westerners have taboos, so it’s hypocritical to criticize Muslims for being outraged about their own violated taboos.

    That’s exactly what they’re trying to do. Amedinejad said, “If your newspapers are free why do not they publish anything about the innocence of the Palestinians and protest against the crimes committed by the Zionists?”

    The claim is ostensibly that Westerners should have balance, by which he means as much anti-Jewish media as anti-Muslim media. But I’m skeptical that some Muslims wouldn’t have rioted over the cartoons if only the newspapers had something anti-semitic on the next page.

    This is a disturbing type of win-win. Amedinejad and his type can have their Rah-rah jew-bashing day and the rest of us can say, well you’re starting to get the free press idea even if your content sucks.

  10. Zuzu:

    Also, how is denying the Holocaust retribution for a Danish cartoon contest?

    More accurately, why respond to offensive cartoons printed in a Christian nation with offensive cartoons direct at Jews?

    Honestly, though, this doesn’t bother me so much. Just as the Danish cartoons created the space for latent anti-Muslim bigotry to come to the surface, these Holocaust cartoons do the same thing for Arab anti-Semitism. The authors of all of these cartoons look foolish for their irrational phobias and hatred. As far as I’m concerned, both sides are reactionaries deserving of abandonment to the history bin of idiotic ideas.

  11. You don’t even have to get into the question of whether mocking a religious figure is analogous to mocking a genocide: you can just say that whereas Jews criticized, Muslims rioted.

    Very good point.

  13. “If your newspapers are free why do not they publish anything about the innocence of the Palestinians and protest against the crimes committed by the Zionists?”

    ROFLMAO! He doesn’t read Helsingin Sanomat, or any Swedish newspapers, then? Palestinians as innocent oppressed victims is The Official Truth.

    But yeah, I agree with you. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: The whole “okay, if you offend Muslims, you must also offend Jews!” is incredibly dishonest false offer of a compromise. Ahmadinejad needs to understand that he doesn’t get to dictate terms to the Western Media.

    What kills me is that same damn Danish paper rejected cartoons about Christians because it would create offense and an uproar. Yeesh.

    What obligation does Jyllands Posten have to publish every amateurish cartoon they did not ask for and was send to them?

  14. I get a distinct feeling of deja vu from all this… And something tells me that this it will be just as unproductive discussion… But hey, you never know.

  15. What obligation does Jyllands Posten have to publish every amateurish cartoon they did not ask for and was send to them?

    Did someone say that they did? I must have missed it. All I saw was Sheelzebub’s assertion that they didn’t publish certain cartoons on the grounds that the cartoons were offensive to Christians, not on the grounds that they were amateurish.

  16. No, she didn’t say that. She was referring to this, I presume, and to get all worked up (“What kills me is that same damn Danish paper rejected cartoons about Christians because it would create offense and an uproar.”) from that supposed “hypocrisy” is about as logical as a radical MRA getting angry at Feministe for not publishing their stuff.

  17. Also, how is denying the Holocaust retribution for a Danish cartoon contest?

    I believe the “logic” goes something like this:

    1) The Jews control the west.

    2) The Danes are part of the west.

    3) Therefore…

  18. One way to deal with this ugly cartoon contest is through humor — I thought this dealt with the issue in a interesting way.

  19. But I do look forward to seeing the conservative response, especially in light of the Muhammad cartoon controversy earlier this year.

    Actually, I recall seeing an article about this in ultra-conservative British newspaper, the Daily Mail (my grandparents read it, despite all attempts to dissuade them).
    Their spin on it was that “ooh, look, the Muslims are MUCH nastier than us, they shouldn’t be whining at all, let’s go and invade them”. But then during the Danish newspaper business, their take on it had consistently been “Muslims are all baby-eating extremists who riot at the slightest little thing”.
    Still, they’re the UK equivalent of Fox News when it comes to bias, and can probably be safely ignored.

  20. The propensity for islamic cartoonists to engage in holocaust denial is a result of Isreal using the holocaust as a general purpose shield behind which they defend their rediculously Waffen SS-esque behavior in palestine. I just thought that needed pointing out.

    Though I must also point out that A) we’re mainly talking about state run and controlled media when we’re talking about middles arab newspapers and B) these are still conservative theocratic types, who, regardless of their religion, are still a lacking in irony or actual humor or taste as their christian brethren in America, so of course they cross the line into anti-semitism repeatedly, conservatives hates jews, irregardless of their specific political and religious views, jews are always Other, and so always evil in the mind of conservatives, who are by definition on the side of “Us” in all their works.

  21. a result of Isreal using the holocaust as a general purpose shield behind which they defend their rediculously Waffen SS-esque behavior in palestine.

    I am really not willing to get into an argument with anyone about this, least of all R. Mildred, but I really fucking hate the “Israel is like the SS” line. There are any number of bad, oppressive, racist regimes to compare Israel to, and I don’t think the Nazis are in any way the best comparison. People use that rhetoric because they think the Holocaust is a fun stick with which to beat Jews. It’s reprehensible, as far as I’m concerned.

  22. …is a result of Isreal using the holocaust as a general purpose shield…

    Care to give an example? The Holocaust is often invoked as an explanation/justification for the creation of Israel. But please show me where it’s used to “defend their rediculously Waffen SS-esque behavior”.

  23. I think it’s reprehensible for people to write:

    “You don’t even have to get into the question of whether mocking a religious figure is analogous to mocking a genocide: you can just say that whereas Jews criticized, Muslims rioted.”

    For arguments sake let us say that it’s “Jews” against “Muslims” in terms of this debate. Where as Jews live in predominately “free” societies in which they can voice their dissent and do not repressive governments whom dictate their every move, “Muslims” do not have that luxury. Please note the only time that they are allowed to protest are when the object of their disaffection helps deflect from their own oppressive governments, who are all too happy to have resentment and anger thwarted and showered upon anyone else but them.

    That people cannot see the manipulation of an angry and embittered people that is PROPPED up by Western powers, is beyond me.

    Color me biased,because I am a Muslim, but for every ass the “West” saw rioting, there were literally 10 million or more Muslims who stayed at home also saying, “What the f*** is wrong with these idiots?”

    How many Christians are there in the United States? I don’t see them all up in arms protesting the protesters at the abortion clinics who intimidate scared women. Everytime a United States soldier rapes/kills/humilates, where’s the masses demonstrating in the streets to prove there is a “silent majority.”

    I’m absolutely sick and tired of Muslims having to defend themselves not only against their own radicals for their sense of mind and safety, but then to have to “prove” anything to people who live 5k miles away is assinine and mind-boggling.

    Before the “extremists” killed 3k + in the US, before they even touched foot in England, they were killing MUSLIMS. Every society has a low point and we’re obviously at ours. This is an internal conflict manifesting itself outwards which the US and other greedy minions who need our resources and oil exasperate. As the American saying states, “United we stand, divided we fall…”

  24. You might want to reread my post, Sylvs. I wasn’t saying that’s the right way to read the situation. I was saying that it plays into the hands of the many conservative pundits and commentors, like our very own Tuomos, who do read it that way. Hence the:

    It seems like such an obvious misstep on the part of the Iranian government.

    and the

    from an external point of view it plays right into the hands of people who hate Muslims.

    and the referring of the people at whom I’m disgusted not as Muslims but as:

    the people currently in charge in Iran.

    There’s a history to this debate here, and most of us already know which side the regulars are on. I’m really not on the side that holds that Muslims are uniquely violent or fanatical. I probably should have put a disclaimer, but I didn’t really think that such a disclaimer was necessary here.

  26. I think it’s reprehensible for people to write:

    Don’t tell me: Because it will provoke violence.

    Where as Jews live in predominately “free” societies in which they can voice their dissent and do not repressive governments whom dictate their every move, “Muslims” do not have that luxury.

    I love the scare quotes in “free”. That said, whose fault is it exactly that all predominantly Muslim countries are hell-holes Freedom, and Human Rights -wise?

    That people cannot see the manipulation of an angry and embittered people that is PROPPED up by Western powers, is beyond me.

    Propped up? Which “Western Power” power propped up the Danish cartoons? Are you aware of the 3 false cartoons that were created by Danish mullahs?

    Color me biased,because I am a Muslim, but for every ass the “West” saw rioting, there were literally 10 million or more Muslims who stayed at home also saying, “What the f*** is wrong with these idiots?”

    Well, you moderate Muslims must be the biggest wimps in human history if all close to 1.3 billion of you can’t stop the grand total 130 (or less) idiots from burning embassies and shouting death to Europe, thus making the rest of you look bad.

    How many Christians are there in the United States? I don’t see them all up in arms protesting the protesters at the abortion clinics who intimidate scared women. Everytime a United States soldier rapes/kills/humilates, where’s the masses demonstrating in the streets to prove there is a “silent majority.”

    Why would they have to? These soldiers are Court-Martialed and their asses shipped to jails (if the accusation can be proved true, obviously).

    I’m absolutely sick and tired of Muslims having to defend themselves not only against their own radicals for their sense of mind and safety, but then to have to “prove” anything to people who live 5k miles away is assinine and mind-boggling.

    The scary 130 radicals! Poor you! 😀

  27. Sally,

    My apologies for not misunderstanding your original intent. After re-reading your entry, I now understand the full context of what you were saying, and so Thank you for the clarification.

    Elayne,

    Perhaps “three major religions” is better replaced by “Abrahamic” instead? Either way, point well taken.

  28. Sylvs

    What Toumas said.

    You want non-moslems to respect Islam? Then start with yourself and make clear the distinction between you and the radical Islamists who dominate the world’s incidents of terror.

    Last I looked it wasn’t Pissed-off Presbyterians strapping on bombs and blowing up school buses of Jews.

    Lead, follow or get out of the way. But Islamic fascism is an ideology that must be erradicated.

    Jihad in German is Mein Kampf.

  29. Don’t tell me: Because it will provoke violence.

    How can one reply to such low quality snark? What was the purpose of your reply?

    I love the scare quotes in “free”. That said, whose fault is it exactly that all predominantly Muslim countries are hell-holes Freedom, and Human Rights -wise?

    I suppose along that same line of reasoning, those damn “colored people” had it coming to them too. What kind of idiots allow themselves to be sold into slavery and treated like cattle for so long? Come to think of it, brown and black folk have a lot in common huh? Gee willikers Tuomas- you sure got me there- yep yep. U-huh, U-huh :: guffaw ::

    Propped up? Which “Western Power” power propped up the Danish cartoons? Are you aware of the 3 false cartoons that were created by Danish mullahs?

    Maybe I have to spell it out a *tad* more clearly for you to follow the progression of thought, sunshine. See, the crazy maniacs that stormed the embassies-they are sometimes controlled by their government, you see? And sometimes those same governments, shoot people if they protest against their own. But when the people are stoked by the said government and tell them to riot and release some of their rage against other governments, then its’ called a win-win situation for the said oppressive government. This same government is given millions of dollars in aid from “Western Powers” like, oh -I don’t know- the United States for example. As far as the “3 false cartoons”, if we’re really going to go down the “conspiracy theory” route, nothing I could say or do could really give credence to the merits of your “logic”. (Oh yeah, baby. Scare quotes around “logic”. That’s right… Bring it.)

    Well, you moderate Muslims must be the biggest wimps in human history if all close to 1.3 billion of you can’t stop the grand total 130 (or less) idiots from burning embassies and shouting death to Europe, thus making the rest of you look bad.

    So, um…let me get this straight. I am responsible for changing a government that will kill me in order to keep their precious posts. I am responsible for stopping crazy zealouts who are willing to kill themselves and anyone else who gets in their path. I am responsible for proving to Europe and the west at large that I am sooo not like them, to boot? Tell you what. Let’s up this ante a little shall we? Let’s say that a total of 10 percent of Muslims are extremists. (I’m exaggerating, but I have to throw you a bone of some sort.) That makes about 1.3 million crazies all over this world who make the rest of the Muslim population look like some “wusses.” Now just for comparison, let’s take a country-hmm..I know- let’s say the United States! How many of them roughly? 280 million, give or take? Now, considering that half this country is divided between Bushies and the non-Bushies, that would dictate that half this country is making the other half look like the biggest **Pussies on earth. By sheer virtue of you being on Feministe, you don’t seem to be a Bushie, and yet you prescribe to the same Fundie drivel. Interesting life, you live there.
    **Disclaimer: Just arguing along Tuomas’s reasoning, not that I prescribe to that opinion.

    Why would they have to? These soldiers are Court-Martialed and their asses shipped to jails (if the accusation can be proved true, obviously).

    Oh dear. See, those crazy Moozlims don’t have governments who care about accountability. If the own “President”, “General” or “King” steals from the populace, you think they’re going to know the meaning of “Court-Martial”? As for my original point, what I was trying to point out is no country in which the majority hold a certain opinion will rally the masses to try and prove that to be true. In other words, people take it for granted that is wrong to rape/kill/maim, etc.

    The scary 130 radicals! Poor you! 😀

    Did you really just write “Poor you”? Yes, poor me who has to live amongst the wretched radicals. Poor she who has to live in humiliation in a nation that sees her as nothing but a second-class citizen. Poor he who has to keep his eyes averted and mouth shut just to make sure no one singles him out for being a traitor, spy, or any other made up accusation so he can live to see another day and make sure his family’s not killed.
    Pity you that can’t see the plight of any oppressed people (Muslim and non) and muster an ounce of sympathy.

  30. You want non-moslems to respect Islam? Then start with yourself and make clear the distinction between you and the radical Islamists who dominate the world’s incidents of terror.

    Sylvs has already done this, multiple times.

    Well, you moderate Muslims must be the biggest wimps in human history if all close to 1.3 billion of you can’t stop the grand total 130 (or less) idiots from burning embassies and shouting death to Europe, thus making the rest of you look bad.

    Well if that’s the case, then Americans and Christians are pretty big wimps, too. After all, we couldn’t stop Timothy McVey or abortion clinic bombers. In fact, mainstream “Christian” organizations give money to groups that harass and do violence to abortion clinic workers and women who seek out abortions.

    I’m really unclear on what else Sylvs is supposed to do in order to stop these people. Sylvs has made it clear that a lot of the radicals are being funded/protected by entities more powerful than Sylvs, and that Sylvs abhors their actions but has no personal control over them.

    So, really, what else can Sylvs do, other than condemn them and say that their actions harm all Muslims — which is exactly what Sylvs has already done? What would make you feel better? An “I Am An American” decal on Sylvs’ mini-van? What?

  31. Jihad in German is Mein Kampf.

    This is offensive, but it’s also really, really ignorant.

    Last I looked it wasn’t Pissed-off Presbyterians strapping on bombs and blowing up school buses of Jews.

    Ever hear of the Dublin Monaghan bombings? It was committed, presumably, by pissed off Presbyterians. (And if you really want me to, I could rattle off a lot more atrocities committed by pissed-off Presbyterians as well as pissed-off Catholics in Northern Ireland.) And somehow I assume that nobody was demanding an apology from Presbyterians all over the world.

    This discussion gets tedious.

  32. You want non-moslems to respect Islam? Then start with yourself and make clear the distinction between you and the radical Islamists who dominate the world’s incidents of terror.

    Last I looked it wasn’t Pissed-off Presbyterians strapping on bombs and blowing up school buses of Jews.

    Lead, follow or get out of the way. But Islamic fascism is an ideology that must be erradicated.

    Jihad in German is Mein Kampf.

    But isn’t it funny how at no point in history did the general population require that Christians distinguish themselves between the Nazis of Germany, the Neo-Nazis of today, the abortion clinic bombers, the Crusaders of the 13th century, the people in the Catholic church who would not return Jewish babies after WWII, etc. etc. ?

    I don’t think Muslims should have to ‘prove’ themselves to everyone else simply because they’re Muslim, just the same as Christians do not have to do such, and never had to.

    By the way, you should know that ‘moslem’ is an offensive spelling.

  33. Jill:

    I’m really unclear on what else Sylvs is supposed to do in order to stop these people. Sylvs has made it clear that a lot of the radicals are being funded/protected by entities more powerful than Sylvs, and that Sylvs abhors their actions but has no personal control over them.

    Well, one place to start is stop making ridiculous, out-of-proportion statements such as:

    but for every ass the “West” saw rioting, there were literally 10 million or more Muslims who stayed at home also saying, “What the f*** is wrong with these idiots?”

    If these idiots are so rare, how come they (or their interests) are in power (or it could be that math is simply not Sylvs’ strong suit, also).

    Sylvs could also stop changing the subject from Islamic terrorism/rioting to… Slavery (!).

    Sylvs could also stop having the same problem that Muslims and Leftists share: Getting angry at people who point out there is problem with Islam.

    That said, If Muslims want to sleep in the be they make for themselves (non-accountable governments etc.), by all means! I would even be happy if US and all other Western Nations would stop paying money to them (which in Sylvs’ logic means that the West pays Muslim governments money to hate the West… Uh. Discounting the fact that it doesn’t matter whether these governments get money or not, the rioting still happens). But the thing is, it’s spilling. There’s the issue of Israel, and massive amounts of terrorism in Europe and US. And the excuse: “But it was caused by something the West did” is getting quite old. I’m not buying it anymore, if I ever really did.

    As for the “poor you”, I will repeat it. Poor Sylvs, living behind the Iron Veil of ignorance, hate and irresponsibility.

    Muslims need to grow up and stop blaming everyone else for their bad deeds, or doing “but what about the abortion clinic bombings etc.”. And you could use some of that too.

  34. Also, nothing about the word Jihad makes it equivalent in any way to ‘Mein Kampf’; not in literal translation (jihad doesn’t mean struggle), nor in concept at all.

  35. Muslims need to grow up and stop blaming everyone else for their bad deeds, or doing “but what about the abortion clinic bombings etc.”. And you could use some of that too.

    I think we should blame the individuals who commit those bad deeds, as well as the institutions and individuals who aid and enable them. I do not think that we should blame Muslims collectively for the actions of a few individuals who happen to be Muslim, any more than we should blame all Christians collectively for the actions of a few individuals who happen to be Christian. That’s the point I was making with the abortion clinic bomber analogy.

    If these idiots are so rare, how come they (or their interests) are in power (or it could be that math is simply not Sylvs’ strong suit, also).

    Or could be that a lot of these places aren’t democracies. Among various other factors.

    Sylvs could also stop having the same problem that Muslims and Leftists share: Getting angry at people who point out there is problem with Islam.

    Well, yeah, because people who blame Islam are simpletons. The people who honestly believe that the problem is religion — and not a complex mix of economics, politics, culture, etc — are so frustratingly ignorant that talking to them is draining.

  37. I think we should blame the individuals who commit those bad deeds, as well as the institutions and individuals who aid and enable them.

    Sure, and it seems that many so-called moderate Muslims are the ones aiding and enabling it. It takes more than few wackos to generate as much suicide bombers and support for terrorist organizations than 1/10000000. So I blame them. And the governments. And the religious leaders who condone it. The whole thing is so widespread that I do not think it is completely unfair to blame Islam, as it exists today.

    Ideologies are only as good as the people in them, and sadly, for all the speak about REAL Islam, the “Unreal Islam” (with terrorism etc.) is widespread and deliberately supported by Westerners too, who give in to these demands. Thus, Is peak of “problem with Islam”.

    That’s the point I was making with the abortion clinic bomber analogy.

    I would blame Christians who do not seek to stop these atrocities committed in the name of their religion. That said, what was the death toll on them? 8? What is the death toll on Islamic terrorism?

    Well, yeah, because people who blame Islam are simpletons. The people who honestly believe that the problem is religion — and not a complex mix of economics, politics, culture, etc — are so frustratingly ignorant that talking to them is draining.

    *Yawn*

    Ok, I suppose the point hidden inside the insults that the reality is complex… well, duh. Of course it is. It always is. And religion is a big part of it. Or to put it in another way, Islam is a big part of Middle Eastern culture and politics. If we want to play the “religion of peace” game, that is.

  38. or could be that a lot of these places aren’t democracies.

    Interestingly, it doesn’t make much difference. Palestinians voted for Hamas, after all. Indeed, Egypt is definitely not a democracy, but quite moderate. With free elections, it might very well be more radical.

    Democracy is the least bad system there is (that is, best), but it only works with checks and balances that prevent it from becoming tyranny by majority.

  39. Tuoumas,

    If there are 1.3 billion Muslims and growing, and the religion ferments such hate and murder and mayhem, then pray tell, why the hell is anyone still alive in the region? Why haven’t the “Moslems” started WWI through WWIX? Just wonderin’, ’cause it seems you’re a “numbers” kinda guy/girl and the rest of us- well, we just don’t get it, now do we?

    *sigh*

  40. f there are 1.3 billion Muslims and growing, and the religion ferments such hate and murder and mayhem, then pray tell, why the hell is anyone still alive in the region? Why haven’t the “Moslems” started WWI through WWIX? Just wonderin’, ‘cause it seems you’re a “numbers” kinda guy/girl and the rest of us- well, we just don’t get it, now do we?

    Because the hate can be channeled towards others, and the others have superior economy and technology, translating into superior military might. 6 days war is a good example of this.

    It’s kind of impotent hate, mostly.

    When did I use the spelling “Moslem”?

    Guy, btw.

  41. There are 7 million Muslims in the United States. Millions more in Europe (too lazy to Google the stats.) Why haven’t I blown myself up and thousands of others yet, since we’re all so inherantly radical due to this hateful and violent religion?

    I’m a practicing Muslim by the way, so none of this “Well, you’re not really a Muslim” line that the Fundies have perfected… ::snicker::

  42. Getting angry at people who point out there is problem with Islam.

    What a coincidence! There’s a problem with Christianity. What the fuck does that mean?

    You are a truly despicable person, Tuomas. I don’t know why you sit there and deny that you are bigoted in every way.

  43. Why haven’t I blown myself up and thousands of others yet, since we’re all so inherantly radical due to this hateful and violent religion?

    Most people want to live. I think it’s called “human nature”. I suppose most Muslims are somewhat humane, not because of Islam, but despite it.

    Millions more in Europe

    Yep, far too many. I only hope that they would put their money where their mouths are and leave these countries that are so racist and Islamophobic.

    the Fundies

    I suppose that refers exclusively to right-wing Christians, not Islamic fundamentalism?

  44. You are a truly despicable person, Tuomas. I don’t know why you sit there and deny that you are bigoted in every way.

    Nah, not every way.

  45. Just as an aside, I want to thank everyone who has tried to “persuade” Tuomas, albeit to no avail.

    Sadly, Xenophobia is harder to shake off than Limbaugh on his pills…

  47. If these idiots are so rare, how come they (or their interests) are in power (or it could be that math is simply not Sylvs’ strong suit, also).

    Sylvs could also stop changing the subject from Islamic terrorism/rioting to… Slavery (!).

    Lol…I forgot about this… It’s called “drawing a parallel” estupido, not changing the subject.

    Do I get extra brownie points for calling him stupid in the language of those who are secretly plotting to take over the United States thereby slowly killing America’s “unique” European ancestry?

    Ha ha ha… Fundies slay me, I swear…

  48. “Most people want to live. I think it’s called “human nature”. I suppose most Muslims are somewhat humane, not because of Islam, but despite it.

    Totally, bro. Cause that line right there- like totally logical… Factual, too, I reckon…

  50. “Yep, far too many.”

    I’ll tell you what the problem is. Too many damn sand-niggers around, that’s what. Go back to yer’ country, ya rag-heads! ( Sounds strangely familiar, no? :: 60’s flashback :: )

  52. Ha ha…

    Pardon moi… My mistake. They are definitely two unrelated things.

    What do you mean by “flame on”, by the way?

  53. Fuck it, I hate troll feeding. I just wish there was a way for me to screen Tuomas’ comments myself so I don’t have to personally read them. They’re such a waste, and he’s not debating, just trolling.

  54. Lorelei

    Nazi Germany under Hitler didn’t pretend to be committing their atrocities in the name of God. Indeed, Hitler cobbled together a super-nationalist/racist ideology that was decidedly anti-individual (read some of his speeches) that relied on “the volk”. As a variant of Mussolini’s fascism, the individual was to submit to the society at large (hmmm… want to know what “submit” in Arabic is?) and Jews were the “subhuman” offal that was the only thing standing between “the volk” and world domination.

    BTW “moslem” is just a variation on muslim. If I wanted “to offend” I’d be referring to moslems as Mohammedans.

    But the most telling thing to understand is that with Irans provocative attempt, there are no “offended Jews” rioting in the streets, burning mosques and holding up signs called for Death to Iran.

    The moral divide between the West and radical Islam (aka Islamism) is the size of the Grand Canyon.

    No amount of equivocating by such a the terrorist-frontgroup CAIR is going to convince those of us who have studied the issue and know exactly what is at stake between dar ul Islam and dar ul Harb.

    Western Muslims have to decide where THEY stand.

  56. And maybe, Darleen, you should ask them how they feel about Palestinians. Because I watched their press conference after their release, and they were quite fulsome in their praise of the Palestinians who helped get them released.

    How about that — they were able to distinguish between one set of Muslims (the ones who kidnapped them) and another (the ones who helped get them released).

  57. And maybe, Darleen, you should ask them how they feel about Palestinians. Because I watched their press conference after their release, and they were quite fulsome in their praise of the Palestinians who helped get them released.

    Why do I suspect that the whole thing was set up by Hamas to make them look good (with the added bonus of getting two new vigorously brainwashed converts)?

    I mean, previously unknown group and all… It stinks.

  58. zuzu

    Were they still in Gaza when they held that press conference?

    Understand, zuzu, Centanni and Wiig have now been effectively neutralized from ever being assigned to any Muslim controlled society… because when they renounce their “conversion” they become apostates and will forever be under threat of being killed. That’s what “good” Muslims are obligated to do to apostates.

    Salman Rushdie ring a bell?

    and have you at all been following the Jill Carroll case?

    Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeda, Al Asqa Martyr’s brigade, Fatah, et al…. All these Islamist cults are death cults.

    The moral divide between the large ::::yawn:::: by the West towards Iran’s “holocaust” cartoons (ironic to see the knot twisting by Islamists who both deny that the Holocaust ever happened then bring it up as if it did) and the barbaric behavior in Islamist dominated communities across the world to cartoons that weren’t even a Big.Deal.

    Sure, Christians got upset with PissChrist … and fired off a bunch of angry letters.

    Yeah…. I sure don’t see any difference between..none at all…

    That’s the ticket!

    (do remember this when the next ostensible “anti-war” rally organized by the Stalinist ANSWER is held complete with disgusting Judenhass signs)

  59. and have you at all been following the Jill Carroll case?

    Yes, and I know that some fine warbloggers said the most horrible things about her, even though she’d had to say that she had been converted at gunpoint and — unlike Centanni and Wiig — was still in the custody of her captors.

    (do remember this when the next ostensible “anti-war” rally organized by the Stalinist ANSWER is held complete with disgusting Judenhass signs)

    Oh, this again. Mind coming up with some undoctored photos in support? You are, also, aware that it was the Christian-leaning Nazis who did the Judenhass thing, not the godless commies, right? And anti-Israel/anti-Zionist slogans don’t count. I know you have trouble distinguishing.

    And that it’s Christians bombing abortion clinics and hiding the fugitive bomber for many years? And who bombed the Murrah federal building? And who are claiming a direct line to God as they bomb the crap out of Iraq?

  60. Sure, Christians got upset with PissChrist … and fired off a bunch of angry letters.

    That were death threats.

  61. And just to make myself clear again, zuzu, because by implication you charge me with not distinguishing between Muslims…

    I have. Over and over again. There is a difference between the general religion of Islam and the murderous ideology of Islamism, which is only practiced by a minority of Muslims worldwide.

    But they also seem to be in the driver seat, because other than one brave British Muslim, alarmed at what was going on at his mosque, gave the tip that started the investigation that prevented American and British planes from being blown out of the sky…I’m not seeing a lot of moderate, westernized Muslims joining to help dig out the cancer in their midst.

    What I do see is organizations such as CAIR try to stifle and stymie any reasonable information gathering and disemination of information on Islamism. And they use the same “but what about Eric Rudolph, huh huh?” sophistry that would be trite if it weren’t so nakedly self-serving.

    My message to moderate Muslims is that it is time to step to the plate and help maintain the Western societies you claim to enjoy and support. If you are doing so, my hearty thanks and support. If you are silent because you are of the percentage of Muslims who poll that you’d really like a form of Sharia in the West…

    Leave.

  62. Piny

    How many? Any carried through? Any attempted? Where? When? Arrests? Prosecutions?

    Shall I start digging up the pics of the Muslim riots over these cartoons?

    Where is the equivalence?

  63. Well, Darleen, instead of quibbling over whether there were any death threats brought to fruition over Piss Christ, maybe you should, as a moderate Christian, condemn, strongly and loudly, the death threats. And the clinic bombings. And the abortion-doctor killings. Because it’s hard to believe Christianity is a religion of peace if its moderate members remain silent about such atrocities.

  64. zuzu

    And within the right blogosphere it created quite the controversy AND a lot of condemnation of those that were quick to condemn Carroll.

    Care to address the other points?

  65. zuzu

    Better watch out for that River in Egypt.

    Start here from good old San Fran.

    Oh…it is Reuters that into doctoring photos … there’s enough Jew hatred in the far Left that no one has to make anything up.

  67. How many? Any carried through? Any attempted? Where? When? Arrests? Prosecutions?

    This is called moving the goalposts. They weren’t angry letters any more than, “I’ll fucking kill you, bitch” would constitute an angry comment here.

  68. I’m waiting for her to slur you for impact, and then pretend that there’s some complex political rationale for her Coulteresque bullshit.

  69. I see one, maybe two signs that were specifically anti-Jew, and the second may be chalked up to a quote from Ariel Sharon. The rest were anti-Israel. And as we’ve gone over before, Israel =/= Jewry. So please find another dead horse to flog, hm?

    I know you’re obsessed with the idea that the left is really anti-Semitic, but you might want to consider what pops out of the mouths of Mel Gibson and Bill Donohue and various fundamentalists and any right-winger who sneers about Hollywood or the Upper West Side.

  70. Darleen, the photos you linked are an indiscriminate mix of antisemitism, support for Hezbollah, and criticism of Israel. Do you assert that those things can not be distinguished, or do you simply refuse to do so?

  72. Christians bombing abortion clinics? Shee-it. What about all those good Christian people who used to picnic under the body of a dead black man? The good Christians who bombed the 16th Street Baptist Church? The good Christians who stood by and did nothing during “race riots” (otherwise known as white terrorism) in New Orleans, Chicago, Springfield IL, Tulsa, etc.? The good Christians that go “n—- knocking”, or gay bashing? The good Christians that killed Matthew Shepherd, or James Byrd, Jr.? Good Christians who attend services filled with frothy statements denouncing gays, Muslims, Catholics (yes, Catholics) as Satanic? Good Christians teaching their children to stay away from children who don’t attend their church, because they’re just destined for the fires of hell? Good Christians that want a return to the days when pregnant teens are thrown out of school, and children of unmarried women are called bastards?

    Yeah, those are some good Christian values, alright. Isn’t there a line in the Bible to that effect—take the beam out of thine own eye first, right?

  73. Piny

    Moving the goal post?

    Where is the moral equivalence between Christian reaction to PissChrist/Jewish reaction to Iran cartoons and Muslim reaction to the Danish cartoons?

  74. Thomas

    Let me ask you. Assume for a moment that you disagreed with Affirmative Action because it implements quotas. That is a good faith policy disagreement with AA.

    Would you march in a parade ostensibly against AA if it were organized by the KKK? Or the organizers allowed the KKK or the NLR or Aryan Brotherhood to participate?

    Michael Lerner, leftist and out spoken critic of Israeli policy was kicked out of ANSWER and banned from any further participation because he had the audicity to question them on allowing anti-semitic participants (those calling for the destruction of the state of Israel or equating Israel with Nazis).

    Anti-Zionism is almost indistinguishable from anti-semitism.

    Imagine someone saying that he seeks the destruction of Italy because he regards Italian national identity as racist. Further, imagine that this person constantly denies being anti-Italian, because he does not hate all Italians, only Italy and all those who believe Italy should exist.

    Now substitute “Jewish” for “Italian” and “Israel” for “Italy” and you understand the absurdity of the argument that one can be anti-Zionist but not anti-Jewish.

  75. zuzu

    ANSWER provided signs include the ones about occupation of “Palestine”

    You know from river to sea

    Guess who that eliminates?

  76. Where is the moral equivalence between Christian reaction to PissChrist/Jewish reaction to Iran cartoons and Muslim reaction to the Danish cartoons?

    No, no. You answer my question: where is the moral equivalence between an angry letter and a death threat?

  77. Piny

    Death threats are legally actionable. If death threats were made, it is despicable. AND that would be equivalent to any letters containing death threats that any Muslim may have sent.

    Equivalent to riots?

    Uh. no.

    Try as I might, I’m not finding any sourcing of actual death threats made against Serrano via Google. Certainly I didn’t find any decree from the Pope calling for Serrano’s murder…which would be the equivalent of the fatwas issued against the Danish cartoonists.

  78. Anti-Zionism is almost indistinguishable from anti-semitism.

    You keep saying that, and yet it’s not getting any truer. Maybe you should type it out in allcaps the next fifty thousand times. That might work.

  79. “I’m not an anti-semite, I’m just anti-zionist!” Is simply an educated way of saying “I only hate Jews who are uppity and think they are entitled to a country of their own”, IME.

    My message to moderate Muslims is that it is time to step to the plate and help maintain the Western societies you claim to enjoy and support. If you are doing so, my hearty thanks and support. If you are silent because you are of the percentage of Muslims who poll that you’d really like a form of Sharia in the West…

    Leave.

    I’d sign that statement, too.

  80. Try as I might, I’m not finding any sourcing of actual death threats made against Serrano via Google. Certainly I didn’t find any decree from the Pope calling for Serrano’s murder…which would be the equivalent of the fatwas issued against the Danish cartoonists.

    If you were evenly remotely as well read as you think you are in Islam you would know there is no “Pope” equivalent. Any self-serving Mullah/Shaykh/Imam could proclaim a Fatwah. My local Imam could tell me tomorrow that burning little baby kittens were allowed if he wanted to and nobody could stop him. If in fact however, you really were approaching this in an open and civilized manner you would go on to cite the other more prolific religious leaders who condemned the idiocity that Fox News kept reeling over and over and over again (much to your delight.)

    Are you actually arguing that 1.3 billion people are so damn beyond the pale that they no longer have any human aspects to their societies? That they condone murder, mayhem and every other evil known to man because of they are Muslims? Am I really reading that I have to prove to YOU whom I don’t know, nor truth be told, really care for- that I owe YOU some justification and worse yet PROOF that I am a “Westernized” non-bloodthirsty Muslim?

    ** head explodes from the lunacy **

    Gee, guess I’m inclined to blow-up in one way or another, huh?

  81. barbaric behavior in Islamist dominated communities across the world to cartoons that weren’t even a Big.Deal.

    “Barbaric” of course. Because those “Islamists” run amock amongst Muslims who of course don’t stop them which means they too are Barbarians.

    How can you not see the irony in quoting and agreeing with a man who states:

    “argument that one can be anti-Zionist but not anti-Jewish.”

    and in the same breath argue that *Islamists, and Muslims (but not really all Muslims, save maybe a few Muslims because most of them are so obviously complacent) are all just crazy fascists.

    It really boggles the mind. And by sheer virtue of you using this disgusting term -Islamist, its just shows the level of contempt you regard all Muslims in.

    moderate, westernized Muslims joining to help dig out the cancer in their midst

    Are you fucking kidding me? First, how about your all too telling connection to both “moderate” and “Westernized” in the same sentence. As if to say that it would be damned near IMPOSSIBLE for a Muslim to be moderate otherwise unless we became more westernized? Second, do you live on planet earth? Do you really think that terrorists kind of just announce that they’re going blow up/kill/maim in the public square?

    Muslim #1: How they hangin’?

    Muslim # 2: Cool, chillin’. You know how we do.

    Muslim # 3: Dudes, come check it out. Osama’s goin’ on and on about how he’s gonna blow up the World Trade Center!! Now that is one crazy MoFo, for real SON!

    :: three muslims laughing somewhere in the mountains of Afghanistan in 2001::

  82. ANSWER provided signs include the ones about occupation of “Palestine”

    You know from river to sea

    Guess who that eliminates?

    Where were the “from river to sea” references there? Is there some soopersekrit invisible ink in the signs or sumpin’? And you do realize that “Palestine” would be the eventual name for the Palestinian state should there be partition, yes? And that the border and the lands are disputed, and that Israeli settlers had to be forcibly ejected from the disputed lands?

    And what Chris said about all caps.

  83. Sylvs

    Can you find a religious edict calling for the death of Serrano from any Catholic bishop? How about a local Baptist minister?

    No? Yet you seem to think the fatwa is no Big.Deal.

    So Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali have nothing to fear, right?

    Like Theo Van Gogh?

    I’m amazed at the amount of sheer audicious denial on this thread.

    And you want to quibble with me over definitions? Islamist refers specifically to the strains of radicalized totalitarian Islam that follows jihad … in trying to bring about a world-wide Caliphate…when dar ul Islam defeats dar ul Harb and kaffir like me have a choice (like Centanni and Wiig) to submit, convert or die.

    No. You don’t want to quibble — you want to divert, obfuscate, deny.

    Chris

    Sweetcheeks…maybe you can, in all caps, explain how you can be against the right of Israel to exist and still claim “but hey, some of my best friends are Jews.” Zionism is to Israel as Americanism is to the United States.

    Oops…I stumbled on it, right? Zionism bad, Americanism bad.

    zuzu

    I don’t believe you’ve never heard the annihilation of Israel chant from such anti-semitic groups as “Free Palestine Alliance” (on ANSWER’s steering committee) that chant at “demonstrations” … “from river to sea, ‘Palestine’ will be free!”…ie from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean.

    ANSWER 8/12 demonstrations condemned ISRAEL for the war with Hezbollah. Hezbollah which wants Israel destroyed and Jews driven out. Hezbollah that committed an unilateral act of war. But Israel is blamed. Just as “The Jew” has always been blamed.

    Do not tell me when radical Islamists refuse to recognize Israel and refer to is as “The Zionist Entity” that they are not engaging in Jewhate of the vilest manner.

    When Israel is held to a stricter and different standard then any other country, then it is, indeed, The World’s Jew.

    This is not about being critical of particular Israeli policies. Israel is a democracy where even its own citizens can argue and change their government. This is about Israel surviving as a sovereign state and Jews being allowed to live in their nation, indeed, being allowed to live at all.

    At one point the world said “Jews are not welcome here, just leave and there will be no more problems.” Now the world says, “Israel is not welcome to exist. Just cease being and there will be no problems.”

    It comes down to Jew hate and the desire of Islamists and their apologists in the West to wipe Israel off the map, as the Romans tried when they destroyed the Temple and renamed the region “Palestine” to humiliate the Israelites with the name of their enemies, The Philistines.

  84. Sylvs

    Of that 1.3 billion Muslims…what percentage do you think are radicalized Islamists that are dedicated to jihad (with accompanying suicide bombers, subway/train bombings, liquid explosives on planes, et al)? 10%? 5%?

    Ok. Do the math.

    65 million.

    It took only 1.8 million Germans to invade Poland.

  85. Of that 1.3 billion Muslims…what percentage do you think are radicalized Islamists that are dedicated to jihad (with accompanying suicide bombers, subway/train bombings, liquid explosives on planes, et al)? 10%? 5%?

    Ok. Do the math.

    You first.

    I mean, wow. That is just a staggering pile of stupid right there.

  86. Why is it than when a Muslim commits a crime against humanity, it is an indictment of Islam, yet when a Christian commits a crime against humanity, it is merely a personal failing of that lone individual? Hmmm? If Islam is morally bankrupt because of terrorists, isn’t Christianity also bankrupt because of terrorist acts committed in the name of God?

    Point being; hold all religions, and those professing those religions, to the same standard.The reason you won’t find Christian churches out in the streets after some professed Christian commits a horrendous crime isn’t because those in the church aren’t disgusted by the crime—-it’s because they recognize that as a failing of that person, and they have faith in the judicial system to handle the administration of justice. The reason you don’t find Western Muslims out in the streets after some professed Muslim commits a horrendous crime is for the same reason. Why should Muslims have to take that extra step of “proving” their morality; a step not required of Christians?

    Because believe it or not, Islam is a Western religion. Oh, yes it is. Fundamentalism was never a popular movement in Islam throughout its history until very recently—unlike Christianity. People in general–no matter their background or religion—tend to turn to various fundamentalisms (around religion, or politics, or ethnicity, or what-have-you) when everything else in their lives has turned to pure shit. Wonder what kind of fundamentalisms will crop up in the United States when the economic shit really hits the fan? Watch and see.

  87. Darleen, you still haven’t condemned Eric Rudolph, or Timothy McVeigh.

    On behalf of all Christians everywhere.

  89. Why don’t you ask the family of James Byrd that question, Tuomas?

    And while you’re at it, ask the family of Matthew Shepard if good Christians in the US have stopped killing gays.

  91. You’re slippery, Zuzu. I’ll give you that. You’ve managed to completely sidestep the question about Islamic terrorism while never actually denying it in clear words, by continuosly changing the subject.

    Are you aware of the origins of the phrase (hint: Check the link I sent)?

    I notice similarities to this discussion.

  92. Michael Lerner, leftist and out spoken critic of Israeli policy was kicked out of ANSWER and banned from any further participation because he had the audicity to question them on allowing anti-semitic participants (those calling for the destruction of the state of Israel or equating Israel with Nazis).

    Darleen, your confusion becomes even more apparent as you try to explain yourself. Both criticism of Israeli policy and criticism of Israel’s existence are criticisms of Israel, not attacks on Jews or Jewishness. Certainly, the two have lots of overlap, but they are not the same thing.

    Now, I’m pro-Israel. If someone is going to inhabit that land from river to sea, I side with the Isrealis, though I think a two-state solution is both preferrable and more likely. But I neither make the mistake, nor commit the rhetorical fault, of assuming that all opposition to Israel (even its existence) is anti-semitic.

    There are plenty of anti-semites in the world. Europe and the Middle East are full of people who think that Jews are evil and secretly control the world. There are plenty of people who have a knee-jerk, racist hatred of Jews. And probably without exception, anti-semites are also against Israel.

    The reverse is not universally true. So, if you intend to provide evidence of anti-semitism instead of opposition to Israel, you need to distinguish between the assholes who want to redraw the map to exclude the Israelis from their home, and the assholes who oppose Jews no matter where they are. In my view, they are both assholes, but not necessarily the same assholes. Or, you can keep insisting that there is no distinction, but then you will not convince anyone who does not already agree with you.

  93. Every society has a low point and we’re obviously at ours.

    The civil war currently being fought in Iraq might be the turning point. I believe it will spill over into other Middle Eastern countries turning into a regional war between the moderate Muslims who wish to live in peace with their neighbors against the extremists who wish to eliminate the infidels. Many innocents will die, but that is unfortunately what is necessary for these countries to eliminate the cancer in their midst.

  94. Such counter-claims would be made both in propaganda for internal consumption as well as in propaganda targeted at the West. The claim had validity in the 1960s when it originated, as there were in fact lynchings of African Americans going on in some U.S. Southern states. There were also many public and televised conflicts between the black population and police during that period.

    Yeah, see, this is why I hate wikipedia sometimes. I recognized the reference; that doesn’t mean it’s tu quoque to respond to people–like Darleen–who obviously see Islam as a special strain of fundamentalism by pointing out that we do, in fact, have Christian terrorists too.

  95. Can you find a religious edict calling for the death of Serrano from any Catholic bishop? How about a local Baptist minister?

    No? Yet you seem to think the fatwa is no Big.Deal.

    Oy – you are a piece of work, I tell ya. Once again, let’s break it down because you obviously missed the point the first time around. You brought the Pope up and *in parallel to your strain of lunacy* I responded that you cannot hold the weight of the Pope with some local Mullah. Assinine distgusting Fatwah’s come to be ALL THE TIME from local idiots who spout off whatever dumbass thing pops into their mind regarding everything from how to kneel during prayer to how you should deal with “Kaffirs” (think Jerry Fallwell w/less money.) And shhh…don’t tell anyone, but they even issue fatwas against other practicing Muslims, sometimes even other Imams! **GHASP** If it suits him, he can pronounce whatever the hell he wants and no one DISPUTES ANYTHING BECAUSE FATWAS HOLD NO VALUE TO ANYONE OTHER THAN THE SAID IDIOT AND HIS FOLLOWERS. And if you think that all the Imams are radical (cuz they’re non-Westernized Muslims, see) and that all these Fatwas cause for all this mayhem, I can tell you right now, there would be a whole lot more carnage than you see now. If you can prove/cite to me an instance in which any Imam proclaims any Fatwah that is not in any way shape or form related to money, power, or politics (local or otherwise), then I’ll give you a million dollars I don’t have. And for the record, I didn’t say it was no big deal. I’m debating your comparisons. The term Apples to Oranges comes to mind. And as for Pastors/Preachers/Priests, you need only revert back to the 60’s for your examples. And just in case your memory doesn’t extend that far, try Jerry again. Righteous Christians for Presidential assasinations, anyone?

    So Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali have nothing to fear, right?

    Like Theo Van Gogh?

    Who issued the fatwas? Ask yourself this question? What did they stand to gain by doing so? Was it out of the blue? Did they wake up one day and go “Hmm, I think I need to seek out some heretics. Let’s see…who…who…? Ah, Rushdie it is.” The word of the day is “context.” I think you should look it up, digest it- be one with it. It’s very useful past the age of 8. And since you’re so fond of names, who killed Yitzhak Rabin? Why was Sharon ostracized waaaaay back when (remember-before he was elected)? The Stern Gang ring a bell? Who are the Tamil Tigers? What about India? Heard they had some fundamentalist Hindus or do they not count? How many black people died at the behest of “local pastors” during the 40’s,50’s, & 60’s? How many Jews could’ve been spared when the Catholic clergy decided to look the other way before WWII?

    I’m amazed at the amount of sheer audicious denial on this thread.

    You and me both, sister, that’s for sure… But I’d like to add bigotry, racism, and overall hard-headedness

    And you want to quibble with me over definitions? Islamist refers specifically to the strains of radicalized totalitarian Islam that follows jihad … in trying to bring about a world-wide Caliphate…when dar ul Islam defeats dar ul Harb and kaffir like me have a choice (like Centanni and Wiig) to submit, convert or die.

    Oh lordy- again? http://www.dictionary.com. Context dear, context. Fundamentalist Christians/Neocons decided they wanted to make Muslims look as sub-human as possible and so the term “Islamist” came to be attributed to those crazy bearded predominantly brown folk in the ME and Asia. Same goes for Islamic-fascist, and all the other quaint little strains that have been concocted lately. Christian conservatives want to implement the same thing as Sharia except they are not called Christianists, nor is their brand of bigotry called Christian-facsism in the MSM. But presumably, if you want to lump all Muslims with the crazies, let’s give ’em like-sounding names…And do you not realize that before they get to your little circle, they still have to go through the general Muslim population at large? Go to Egypt and see how they feel about the Muslim Brotherhood? Why don’t you pop on over to Afghanistan and see how most people feel about the Taliban? How about Yemen? Pakistan? Jordan? Indonesia? How many Muslims do you know? How many Muslim countries have you been too? On what authority do you find yourself so “attuned” to the Muslim “street” that you can make these absurd assessments?

    No. You don’t want to quibble — you want to divert, obfuscate, deny.

    No, sweetie. I’m afraid thats what some would call “projecting.”

  96. Who issued the fatwas? Ask yourself this question? What did they stand to gain by doing so? Was it out of the blue? Did they wake up one day and go “Hmm, I think I need to seek out some heretics. Let’s see…who…who…? Ah, Rushdie it is.”

    Yeah, he had it coming.

    Assinine distgusting Fatwah’s come to be ALL THE TIME from local idiots who spout off whatever dumbass thing pops into their mind regarding everything from how to kneel during prayer to how you should deal with “Kaffirs”

    So are these idiots more common than “literally 1 in 10 million”?

    But I’d like to add bigotry, racism, and overall hard-headedness

    Blah blah blah… No content.

    Fundamentalist Christians/Neocons decided they wanted to make Muslims look as sub-human as possible and so the term “Islamist” came to be attributed to those crazy bearded predominantly brown folk in the ME and Asia.

    So “Islamist” is somehow inherently dehumanizing word? Since when?

  97. who obviously see Islam as a special strain of fundamentalism by pointing out that we do, in fact, have Christian terrorists too.

    But the scale of the problem is completely different, nor does Christian terrorism negate Islamic terrorism.

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  101. Who issued the fatwas? Ask yourself this question? What did they stand to gain by doing so? Was it out of the blue? Did they wake up one day and go “Hmm, I think I need to seek out some heretics. Let’s see…who…who…? Ah, Rushdie it is.”

    Yeah, he had it coming.

    Erm.. you missed the boat kiddo. Didn’t state it and didn’t allude to any such thing. The point was the fatwas issued are not because Islam is inherantly radical. It’s because it ties back to one universal premise: power, politics, and money.

    Assinine distgusting Fatwah’s come to be ALL THE TIME from local idiots who spout off whatever dumbass thing pops into their mind regarding everything from how to kneel during prayer to how you should deal with “Kaffirs”

    So are these idiots more common than “literally 1 in 10 million”?

    It’s ironic that you point out my math skills are weak, when yours seem er…not so stellar. Point #1: The portion of the Muslim population that would follow in the way of becoming spiritual “leaders” are relatively slim. Fringe elements do not have large followings, much to your dismay. If so, you would see a LOT more carnage. Point # 2: Comprehension is key. The “all the time” referenced the fatwas from the said Fringe Imams. Hence (you may want to sit down for this and concentrate), ONE IMAM CAN ISSUE MULTIPLE FATWAS. “Multiple” connotates “all the time.” Get it?

    But I’d like to add bigotry, racism, and overall hard-headedness

    Blah blah blah… No content.

    Totally dude, cause that right there? *SCREAMS* content….

    Fundamentalist Christians/Neocons decided they wanted to make Muslims look as sub-human as possible and so the term “Islamist” came to be attributed to those crazy bearded predominantly brown folk in the ME and Asia.

    So “Islamist” is somehow inherently dehumanizing word? Since when?

    When did you stop learning to digest words? Islamist originally meant “someone adhering to the Muslim faith” and has since been skewed to someone who is a fundamentalist Jihadi. Hence, the corruption. Besides, what do you care? You’re an Islamophobe, by your own admission. We’re all pieces of shit to you anyway…

  102. who obviously see Islam as a special strain of fundamentalism by pointing out that we do, in fact, have Christian terrorists too.

    But the scale of the problem is completely different, nor does Christian terrorism negate Islamic terrorism.

    Of course Christian terrorism was like, totally not the same. ’cause slavery and um..that whole “Colonialism” thing-not the same. “Manifest Destiny”-definitely a totally different premise. On a way smaller scale for sure… Yep, yep.

    Oh, and for the record, no one alluded or stated Christian terrorism negated Islamic terrorism except for some right-wing “visitors” who shall remain nameless… * cough *

  103. Sylvs:

    This is so tiresome. When I ask for moderate Muslims for help in stopping the radicals from committing terrrorism against everyone I get told: “We can’t, we’re not in power, we would be killed”.

    (Comment #29)

    But interestingly, when someone points out that this is a problem, and indeed, we have a problem, you start mocking me because “They’re just some fringe loons, no one really listens to them, you shouldn’t take them seriously”.

    (Comments #95, #101)

    Which one is it going to be, or are you just going to keep switching whenever you need to?

    Then, of course, the avalanche of ad hominems and tu quoque fallacies.

    BTW, “Islamophobe” does not mean “someone who thinks all Muslims are shit”, it means “someone who is opposed to the goals of Islam” and specifically in my case, political Islam.

    I suppose I’ll bow out, it was just as unproductive as I suspected it would be.

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