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Compassion? Caring?

piny

(Update: Trigger warning: This guy is a misogynist, fatphobic asshole, and his blog entry is extremely disturbing; the passage I excerpt here is far from the worst part. If you’d rather read something less nausea-inducing, you can go here or read this. Or you can go eat an almond-custard croissant as big as your head, which is what I’m doing right now.)

I tell this story a lot, and people, girls especially, often ask me if regret what I did. Well, first they get real mad at me and act like they are offended, but then they ask me if I regret it. In a way I do; it was kinda mean. But I was only like 23 when it happened; what do you expect from me? Compassion? Caring? Should I have just invited her out to meet my friends and stay for a night cap? Yeah, I guess that’s what most guys would have done. And that’s why most guys are hard-up schmucks who couldn’t get laid in a monkey whorehouse with a bag of bananas.

What really cracks me up is when girls ask me if I’d do something like this again. Of course I wouldn’t. I already fucked a fat girl once, why would I do it again? That’s a stupid question.

This story brought up a lot of remembered words from Andrea Dworkin, fat chick, but I’m just gonna go with these, which I chanted whenever I felt like purging:

“Does the sun ask itself, “Am I good? Am I worthwhile? Is there enough of me?” No, it burns and it shines. Does the sun ask itself, “What does the moon think of me? How does Mars feel about me today?” No it burns, it shines. Does the sun ask itself, “Am I as big as other suns in other galaxies?” No, it burns, it shines.”

–Andrea Dworkin
From Our Blood

131 thoughts on Compassion? Caring?

  1. That was fast.

    And usually I don’t go in for “inspirational” quotes and all, but that one is quite lovely. Thanks for this.

  2. wow, piny, that vicodin must really be taking the edge off the crap that’s running around the internet today.

    how many showers do you have to inspire in one day? =)

  3. Well.

    Welcome to my nightmare.

    This is what I fear they’re thinking whenever I’m with someone new and I don’t hear from them. Or they start acting weird. Have I been played with? Am I being mocked?

    It’s probably better I saw this tonight for the first time rather than tomorrow morning right before work. So I can cry in the privacy of my home rather than in the office.

    God. DAMN.

  5. Oh and this asshole supposedly went to Duke Law. As if us Dukies don’t have enough dipshits to embarrass the hell out of the institution already.

    *retching, etc*

  6. I’m trying to decide if it’s worse if the story is true or not, or whether or not it matters. I could remark on how often Tucker reinforces the notion that for men, what is sexy is almost entirely determined by other men (the homerotic, homosocial subtext is hardly even a “sub” text) in his nasty litte post — but in the end, there’s nothing to say but “I”ll pray for the asshole.” And the Dworkin quotation was perfect.

  7. See, what I’d like to see is the feminist sociological explanation of why Joe Francis and Tucker Max, despite willfully creating reputations for themselves as misogynists, find that they have an inexhaustible supply of attractive women willing to have sex with them.

  8. Daniel, I think that the thing is that it’s really not hard to get laid. We make it more difficult for ourselves by having, say, standards, or dignity, but we don’t have to.

  9. See, what I’d like to see is the feminist sociological explanation of why Joe Francis and Tucker Max, despite willfully creating reputations for themselves as misogynists, find that they have an inexhaustible supply of attractive women willing to have sex with them.

    There’s a lot of feminist writing on the tendency of a sexist society to convince women that they deserve nothing better. See above re: Andrea Dworkin, for example.

  10. Tucker Max runs a chain of shock-humor websites, all of which present similar plots, which differing primarily in twists on the setting. I doubt the stories are true.

  11. There’s a lot of feminist writing on the tendency of a sexist society to convince women that they deserve nothing better. See above re: Andrea Dworkin, for example.

    I read “Intercourse” in college. I find I disagree with her worldview.

  12. Oh, Zuzu.

    Having been a novelty-fuck and a story-to-tell-friends before, I, well.
    It took me a long, long time to get it, regarding fat issues, but I am so, so sorry. If it’s any help, I’m speaking as someone who just didn’t quite get it who is now, thanks in large part to your example and your work here, dedicated to being a staunch ally for good.

  13. I read “Intercourse” in college. I find I disagree with her worldview.

    Which is fine, but she still had an explanation for accepting raw deals like this–and she’s one of many.

  14. Agreed — you don’t have to “buy” everything Dworkin every wrote to accept that sometimes, in her eloquent diagnosis of the problem, she was more incisive and emotionally insightful than any of her contemporaries.

    Can I plug my April post on a related subject, pretty please?

  15. I wish I hadn’t read that. I mean, honestly – I really wish that I had not clicked that link. I’ve read about this sorry excuse for a human being before, but I had never ventured over to his web site, and I really shouldn’t have this time.

    Daniel@NYU, it’s really not that difficult to understand how Joe Francis and Tucker Max get pussy.* See, Joe Francis plies women with alcohol and then rapes them. And apparently Tucker Max engages in weeks and weeks of cutesy email banter with women whom he finds cool, then goes on dates with them and fucks them, only to reveal after the fact that he is one of the sleaziest, cruellest, most heartless pieces of shit on the planet. Or at least, that’s what he did in this instance.

    But yeah, you’re probably right – what feminists should really be doing is figuring out why so many women are so dimwitted as to sleep with these fellows. [eyeroll] I find I disagree with your worldview.

    *I do not actually use this phrase, but I’m sure these two shitheads do.

  16. Daniel, there is a long list of things that get women going and there are many that trump misogyny. And to that that misogyny isn’t always apparent in a date or flirting kind of setting. I don’t understand what you’re getting at with your question.

  17. There’s this really depressing story I read at bitch magazine’s blog a few years ago about sweat hogging. Only read it if you have a strong stomach and you’re not already depressed, because you’ll literally feel like taking a shower afterwards. And despairing of humanity.
    Also, earlier this month, the TM people invaded fattymcblog. I seriously don’t understand why people hate the “fat” with such virulence. If only they directed their outrage at child molesters, white supremacists or robber barons instead, we’d be much farther along than we are today.

  18. It’s easy, KnifeGhost. What Daniel is getting at is the same thing that people who blame rape victims are getting at. (No, I’m not saying you do that Daniel, just analogizing here.) See, instead of focusing on why men like Joe Francis and Tucker Max exist, Daniel believes that feminists’ intellectual energy would be better spent trying to figure out why so many women are so stupid as to fall victim to the many horrendous acts of men like them.

  19. THis guy totally sucks, but I wasn’t surprised at what he wrote on his website; it was pretty much what I would expect an entitled shallow asshole to write. Here in Austin at UT in the eighties, the campus was choc-a-bloc with guys like this, we called them “frat boys” (whether they were Greeks or not) because they just EXUDED this worldview. They think they are King Shit and Co. and they like to drink and get pussy off of any chicks they can, the “hotter” the better, because it reinforces their egos. Any girl with half a brain ignored their existence. They for the most part were incapable (as this guy seems to be) of thinking of females as human, and I imagine that this guy is virulently anti-feminist on those very grounds. It interferes with his worldview to think of females as human, and he will refuse to do so for as long as he can. Could be indefinitely, or he may keep it up until he has a daughter. Or he may molest his daughter.

    These are just the type of people that one refuses to have any contact with, because they are inferior.

  21. Daniel@NYU,

    You are horribly cliched. These women are armed with years of repeating themselves and memorized citations for the shit you ask. Google things yourself for God’s sake. I’m sure you know how to do it. Come down from your pedestal/high horse once in a while. The earth is pretty nice, and I think it’s the lack of air up there that makes you think that being obnoxiously sarcastic is somehow a good idea.

    You are not original, witty, or even pseudointellectual. You’re just another throb in my jugular vein. Congratulations, it took you about four comments for me to be fed up with you. Jesus Lord.

    Not a lot of love,
    Lorelei

  22. Oh, c’mon! It’s so funny! Don’t you GET IT? it’s a JOKE. ha, ha!

    you know what would be even funnier? giant spider comes down the wall as they’re laughing and eats their faces, each and every one.

    “Oh! Breathtaking! It’s like someone slaughtered an Abercrombie and Fitch catalog!”

  23. it’s really not that difficult to understand how Joe Francis and Tucker Max get pussy. See, Joe Francis plies women with alcohol and then rapes them. And apparently Tucker Max engages in weeks and weeks of cutesy email banter with women whom he finds cool, then goes on dates with them and fucks them, only to reveal after the fact that he is one of the sleaziest, cruellest, most heartless pieces of shit on the planet. Or at least, that’s what he did in this instance.

    These guys are not hiding the ball. They tell anybody and everybody what they’re about. And when “Girls Gone Wild” shows up on a college campus, the sorority girls line up hours ahead of time. Women who have read every story on Tucker Max’s website fly across the country to have sex with him.

  24. I am really, really sorry that I followed that link. It physically hurts so much that it’s hard to breathe.

    It’s bad enough to know in my mind how much men hate women, but to actually feel the contempt and disgust that radiates off of that page? I want for it to make me angry, and it does, but mostly it just makes me feel inhuman and sick.

  25. They tell anybody and everybody what they’re about

    Have you actually read what he writes? He puts on charm when he’s trying to get into someone’s pants and then turns into a total asshole the next morning. All these guys do.

    He tells everyone who he’s not trying to fuck what he’s about, and yes, some women stay after he does reveal himself, but they’re always dumbasses with ridiculously low self esteem.

    And that’s if you believe most of the stories… wait a second, you didn’t buy any stocks touted by jerome armstrong did you?

  26. Andrea Dworkin died young after five years of horrendously painful osteoarthritis in her knees, caused by her weight. Perhaps she should not have modeled her human behavior after a giant ball of hydrogen.

  27. I’m really honestly glad I’m not him. The desperate panting after other men’s approval is pathetic.

  28. So Daniel@nyu disagrees with AD’s worldview. What a shock; she was the victim of it and he’s the beneficiary.

  29. The linked “article” is lame and really isn’t even worth spending time on.

    The Andrea Dworkin quote I like and stands on its own (no need for the pathetic link).

  31. Women sleep with men like that b/c they agree with that world view. Some women think fat chicks (and fat men) are disgusting. Some women think that anyone who does not have a certain look is not fully human. Some women think that flashing their breasts for someone else to profit from is empowering and above criticism since it is their choice. Having a vagina does not automatically give someone the ability to see through the patriarchy. Women can be card-holding partriarchs just as easily as men.

  32. Daniel, I’ll tell you why women fall for these men. Pick a “nice” shore neighborhood or a ritzy country club if you don’t happen to live by the shore and spend an afternoon there. What do you notice about the college age men? They’re usually working as lifeguards or caddies, they’re well-groomed, polite, intelligent, connected, pleasantly socializing, and about the most helpful people around. If you’re a woman and you look like you belong in that setting, you’ll get the best treatment of all whether you’re attractive or not. On their turf, they seem like your veritable knights in shining armor. But I attended the ritzy private school with them and I’ve been to the country club sweet sixteens and visited the beach with “in” folks, and I can pass for a WASP in a bathing suit, and I’ve met the same people on the streets of the college campus. On the streets, with their protective clique of fellow privileged boys and among a diverse lot of people, they’re the Tucker Max’s of the world. Different environment, apparently different man. The scenario recurs on smaller scales with angelic frat boys at their formal functions, and demonic frat boys the morning after or at other events. When you don’t know the dynamic and you’ve just met this person for the first time when they happen to be on best behavior (for a plethora of reasons we could analyze for ages), how are you supposed to know better?

    Same with Joe Francis. I don’t know word one about the guy except that now I know he’s the GGW man and a monster. Had I met him in a nightclub I was going to be in anyway, his behavior seems disconcertingly nice. I’ve learned not to trust surprisingly attentive and apparently nice people who pay way too much attention to me, but not everyone has had that hard lesson. If I didn’t know who he was already, I wouldn’t have nearly the defenses you seem to expect us all to have. Like the frat boys, he has his nice face and the other side that comes out in private. Add to that a band of people assisting him to abuse people and cover up for him, it would be even more difficult to navigate.

    Now why women line up for this sort of thing? Those reasons were discussed in the LA Times article and better than I could.

  33. Wow, only 26 comments before the “fat people need to be told how unhealthy and disgusting they are” crowd is in the hizzouse!

  34. find that they have an inexhaustible supply of attractive women willing to have sex with them.

    They don’t. They’re really desperate virgins who can’t get a woman to be in the same room with them, much less have sex with them but who can convince a bunch of men that they’re getting some. Alternately, maybe they pay well enough that a really desperate prostitute could ignore their complete ugliness, physical* and mental, hold her nose, and screw them.

    *Ok, I’ve never actually seen Joe Francis, but if Tucker Max is as ugly as he looks on his site…oh, my god! he should have his plastic surgery paid for by the state because his face is a national disaster area. (Yes, I know that’s not original, but such ugliness can be addressed only with cliches.)

  35. Oh fuck off, Spiffy. That is so old. Please for the love of god, come up with something more creative next time.

    What a great way to start my morning. Zuzu, would you like a big fat chick hug because I could certainly use one myself.

  37. Pingback: My Aim Is True

  38. what a fucking mother fucking shit head!!!!!!!!!!!! what an asshole – no wonder he’s single – what woman would ever go out wth such an arrogant, egotistical, stupid, coarse, compassionless, turd of a human being… yes, i already mentioned STUPID motherfuckign shithead. can someone with computer experience please go crash that mother fuckers site????

    now!!??? what an asshole, i am so pissed off right now…jesus christ and then threw her clothes outside!!?? what a motherfucking asshole, i could really kick this guy and hius stupid friends in the balls right now, hoping to prevent these turds from reproducing. and his expectation to his RIGHT to have sex. what an asshole. leads a very nice girl on – LIES to her for sex…and he’s the victim…only of being the last one in line when they passed out brain power. what a SHITHEAD!!!! I AM SO PISSED OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    and no place for comments on his sight that i saw…can’t handle it, probably has a VERY small dick…we all know the kind. still want to kick his ass though…hope he gets a venereal disease, very painful one…no wait, cause he’s the kind of asshole who would sleep with a girl knowing he had one to brag to his preteen friends about what a stud he is.

    hope his dick falls off into a tiny million pieces adn he is forced to run around naked looking for cover while 1000 “fat” women laugh their asses off.

    what a shit head…please someone spam his site to hell and back…i wish i knew more about computers…dammit.

    i am SO pissed off right now…and yes, for some reason – Joe Francis – did jump to mind. stupid, predatory, can’t get a woman on your own without lying to, drugging, getting drunk – notice he has to get the girl drunk in this story too…

    it’s the attitude of these men, that the women they USE, ABUSE, LAUGH AT

  39. So I’m drinking my coffee and I run into this post. My brain tells me not to click the link, but I ignore my brain and click the link anyway. Good morning, unadulterated hate and pain. Thanks a fucking lot, piny.

    Zuzu said it best: “welcome to my world.”

    I know there’s plenty of shit out there like this. Tucker Max just seems to be the hater of the day. Do we have to call attention to his insanity, so he can now write a post on how he pissed off the feminists? Did any one of us really need to see this, read this, spend more than 10 seconds thinking of it?

    Funny thing is that I’m not even that mad at this Tucker Max person. He’s just an asshole with a schtick, and fat hatred is no big surprise to us fat women. But did I have to get whacked with it first thing in the morning–or at any time of the day–so I could be depressingly reminded of it?

  41. For those of us raising boys, we can make men who are not like this. There is a great book called Raising Cain that I read to help me make sure the male children in my life grow up to be compassionate respectful people. When I see them with our dogs and small children, I am hopeful that it is working.

    To further shift the focus to the perps, both male and female, the fear people have of being overweight, and the projection of that fear on to people who actually are, is a powerful force. I remember walking through the playground wearing size 8 or 10 Calvins and someone saying I wasn’t entitled to wear them because I wasn’t thin enough. Of course, the person commenting was no Twiggy either, but you kind of forget about that at the time. The problem with tolerating this kind of criticism is that it never stops. If you are a size 4, you can find people who will think you should be a size 2. It all shifts with external standards of beauty, which used to value being plump because it meant you did not have TB or something and could afford to eat. Anyway, Zuzu, try to remember that people get scared and they are lashing out at you, and it’s their problem for being so hung up on their own body issues. Plus by deflecting attention to people who are overweight, they are desparately hoping no one will start picking on them (a major goal of all bullying).

  42. If fantasizing about throwing battery acid in this guy’s face is wrong, then I don’t want to be right.

  43. Ewww with a capital Ewww. I actually went to school with this guy, although he was a year or two ahead of me (whoever said he went to Duke Law, unfortunately, is correct) and while he never spoke to me – I apparently wasn’t hot enough to fuck or fat enough to torture – everyone heard about his “hijinks.” I didn’t now that he’d turned into a professional asshole until now, though. Is he actually making a living at this?!? Bleh.

  44. In a way I liked the site because he is too stupid to hide his hatred of women and himself. He probably doesnt even realize how telling some of his wording is. What is particularily amusing is that he apparently thinks he is some kind of “individual” and really different than a lot men when in reality his “difference” is like the difference between clothes from the GAP and clothes from A&F.
    How can you help but laugh at someone who thinks his “fat girl” story makes HER look bad. Or him look anything but pathetic.
    Someone needs to send him the Clue-by-four.

  45. Andrea Dworkin died young after five years of horrendously painful osteoarthritis in her knees, caused by her weight

    According to the NHANES data, being underweight is at least as risky as being overweight, possibly moreso, especially as people age. Do you go around telling thin people that any health problems they may have are their own fault for not having the self-discipline to eat more?

  46. Ok- first of all… I’m pretty sure that this guy is absolutely full of it- I think he started lying in the locker room day, and it ended up going a little too far. Second, I think we should just be glad that we don’t know him personally, and, god willing, we never have to be in the same room with him. And, well, you know- as far as the women lining up to do them… well, I think they’re morons too. I don’t think they deserve any defending. Even the “fat girl”- if she read his stories, probably knew that he wasn’t exactly prince charming. I don’t know- I don’t like the idea of women being helpless pawns in some scheming misogynists evil master plan.

  47. Even the “fat girl”- if she read his stories, probably knew that he wasn’t exactly prince charming.

    But she didn’t, according to his account – he says he just had a standard dating web site up at the time. The stuff about what a lame asshole he is, and how abjectly he craves the approval of other guys who are lame assholes, that he added later.

  48. I just “love” the lame little joke he makes about developing PTSD after shagging her. I sincerely hope he is exposed to PTSD someday, whether directly or indirectly. Might cure him of some of that egocentricity.

    Speaing of PTSD – rape & abuse are major factors in wanting to sleep with a guy like that.

    And if not, there’s always good old-fashioned stupidity. Ideas such as, “oh, I can change him” or “oh, he’s got money and friends so he must be cool.” No particularly grand revelations there, am not sure why Daniel from NYU is so perplexed.

  49. AP via MSNBC (sorry):

    She said Hausner never hit her, but constantly belittled her. “I was really miserable,” she said. “He’d tell me, ’You can’t cook, you can’t clean. You’re ugly. No one wants you.”’

    In a jailhouse news conference Monday, Dale Hausner challenged Karen Hausner’s claims.

    “That’s just ex-wife stuff,” he said. “That’s just character assassination. She is just looking to get her ugly face in the paper.”

    Link to Full Story

    After reading this post, and your link (ugh – so glad I am home so I could SHOWER afterwards), I think I may just have to go throw up.

    (Sorry if this is an inadvertent threadjack. Feel free to nuke if it is.)

  50. I don’t think you should link to his site.

    Whenever I encounter assholes like this, I just tend to ignore them. My time is better spent on other things.

    My only comfort is knowing that Max Tucker will eventually be the old guy in the club that creeps out all the ladies. And to someone so shallow, I’m sure that’s a terrifying concept to him.

  51. Wow.

    I mean, wow. I’ve had my insensitive moments to be sure, but this guy is a bona fide asshole. In fact, that word is insufficient to describe him.

  52. This is what I fear they’re thinking whenever I’m with someone new and I don’t hear from them. Or they start acting weird. Have I been played with? Am I being mocked?

    It’s probably better I saw this tonight for the first time rather than tomorrow morning right before work. So I can cry in the privacy of my home rather than in the office.

    God. DAMN.

    So I’m drinking my coffee and I run into this post. My brain tells me not to click the link, but I ignore my brain and click the link anyway. Good morning, unadulterated hate and pain. Thanks a fucking lot, piny.

    I’m sorry. You’re both right. I was angry, and wasn’t thinking. I felt personally affected by it, too, but I think it’s fair to say there are differences between having experience as a fat girl and being a fat woman. It didn’t seem any more triggering or offensive than any of the other stuff I posted about and linked to yesterday, so I didn’t think it would be a problem.

    If you’d like me to take it down, or remove the link, or put up a warning about this guy’s assholishness, I’d be happy to.

  53. These guys are not hiding the ball. They tell anybody and everybody what they’re about. And when “Girls Gone Wild” shows up on a college campus, the sorority girls line up hours ahead of time. Women who have read every story on Tucker Max’s website fly across the country to have sex with him.

    It makes them feel special and better than all those girls who get mocked, that’s what I think. Its validation. If a guy is a super-critical asshole like that then you must be something special if he wants to do you. “I’m not a fat chick, I’m not an ugly chick, I’m not a prude like those girls that he makes fun of. I must be something special.” More or less. Course, it doesn’t usually take more than until the next morning to realize that they’re worth just as little to that type of guy as the fat girls are. They just have something he wants enough to pretend for a night.

  54. But she didn’t, according to his account – he says he just had a standard dating web site up at the time

    No, he said he had an “application”- which is still on his site (for posterity!), and he, in no uncertain terms, validates himself as a sizist, misogynistic bastard. Oh, and I read some other things on his site- he’s just as cruel to beauty queens as he was to this girl. He’s a douche. What can I say?

    Oh, also- zuzu, et al.- this is ONE homely miserable, completely abnormal asshole. Don’t let anything he says get to you. There isn’t a single person on earth who has never not been called back. I, personally, take the position that anyone who is not madly in love with me clearly has bad taste- and I don’t like people with bad taste any how.

  55. Tucker Max runs a chain of shock-humor websites, all of which present similar plots, which differing primarily in twists on the setting. I doubt the stories are true.

    I could give a fuck whether his stories are true. The hate and disdain he obviously feels for women shine through in all of his stories, whether they be truth, lies, or embellishments. That was purely sickening.

    HATE. I hate that man. I hope he wraps his car around a tree, I really do.

  56. If you’d like me to take it down, or remove the link, or put up a warning about this guy’s assholishness, I’d be happy to.

    Oh, no, it’s not necessary. Better that this be exposed for what it is, because I think it’s a good thing for people who’ve never had to deal with this kind of thing see that it goes on.

    I think what makes it most humiliating is the sense of having been taken for a fool and so roped in by the charm and the wooing, only to find out (or at least suspect) that you’re the butt of a joke. I have a hard time watching Heathers because the character of Martha Dumptruck is so very, very close to me in high school. Except I always said that the scene early on in the cafeteria where Winona Ryder forges a note from the popular guy to Martha saying he likes her and she falls for it doesn’t ring true because she’d know right away she was being played. But this is just a more sophisticated version of that.

  57. Piny, don’t take it down. We need to be reminded of evil. Of what we are defending our sisters against – especially those of us who are insulated from this crap (for now).

  58. I used to know a guy who would go around insulting the women he had slept with, and it seemed obvious to me that it was really just his way of bragging about having slept with them. A particular woman’s name would come up in conversation, and he’d say something like “Oh, she’s terrible in bed” or “She’s way too aggressive in bed” or something like that. Nothing nearly as hateful as this Tucker Max scumbag, but intended as an insult nonetheless. I guess he figured it’d be too pathetic to just say “Ooh, I fucked her!” so he conveyed the information via insults (which was equally pathetic). Unfortunately, I had slept with him before I learned of this habit. He was actually quite charming when I first met him, which of course was just an act. I later found out that he was going around telling people “Oh, she’s weird in bed,” whatever that was supposed to mean.

  59. “I’m not a fat chick, I’m not an ugly chick, I’m not a prude like those girls that he makes fun of. I must be something special.

    I think you may have hit the nail on the head there, rabbit. You articulated something I only had an inkling of.

    I also vote for not taking the link down. I was practically in tears when I finished reading his tripe, but this entire thing is a good reminder of just how fucked-up some of the people are out there.

  61. piny, I vote for a trigger warning. Some days I can take hatred–other days I can’t. Today was a “can’t” day. And sorry I swore at you 🙁

  62. “It’s bad enough to know in my mind how much men hate women,”

    Men don’t hate women. Some men do, but not all men.

    Tucker Max had an MTV reality show filmed around his exploits. IThe executive producer was a woman I believe.

  63. I honestly saw the page was Tucker Max (how entirely appropriate that his name rhymes with Fucker) and didn’t read it the first time. Having seen it subsequently, I vote for a trigger warning too.

    I feel so sick.

  64. One reason I need to be reminded is that Mr. is right. Mercifully not all men are like this. I go home to my nice husband every night (for the love of god he cooked 3 nights last week) and spend all day with my decorus male colleagues. Sometimes I just forget about those jerks out there.

  65. Wow, only 19 more comments before the “skinny people need to be told how unhealthy and disgusting they are” crowd is in the hizzouse!

  67. Incidentially, for those who have moved on from nauseated to enraged, here’s the contact information for Max’s publisher:

    CITADEL PRESS INC,
    3300 BUSINESS DR,
    SACRAMENTO,, CA, 95820-2171, UNITED STATES,
    TEL: 916-456-6000
    FAX: 916-732-2070
    ABI-NO: 422124230

  69. piny, I vote for a trigger warning. Some days I can take hatred–other days I can’t. Today was a “can’t” day. And sorry I swore at you 🙁

    Don’t worry about it. It was a valid point, and I’ve had similarly intense reactions to similarly horrible internuggets.

  71. No, he said he had an “application”- which is still on his site (for posterity!), and he, in no uncertain terms, validates himself as a sizist, misogynistic bastard.

    “Application,” whatever; my point is that he claims that the “fat girl” (probably a completely fictional character, but I’ll assume she’s real for the purpose of discussion) responded to his web site six years ago, before anyone had heard of him, and well before he had validated himself (to any beyond his immediate circle) as a sizeist, misogynistic bastard. So, if his story bears any resemblance to reality, she’s blameless and had no way of knowing what a creep he really was.

    Incidentally, many years ago, back when I was in college, I remember a friend of mine telling me that no one would ever sleep with me who wasn’t in love with me, because I just wasn’t pretty enough (oddly, this came from someone who did in fact want to sleep with me, and who I think meant it less meanly than it sounds – he seemed to actually think that when other men looked for casual sex partners, they accepted nothing less than supermodel looks, or something like that). I knew he was wrong at the time – men plainly wanted to sleep with me who didn’t treat me as if they were the least bit in love with me – but I had no idea just how wrong he was. And it still strikes me as totally bizarre that men will admit to/claim to sleep with women just to raise their standing with other men (if not, usually, quite as grotesquely as this guy).

  72. Oh, fuck off.

    My first reaction was “what kind of idiot could possibly miss the point that badly”, but your response is better: succinct, to the point.

  73. Ah jeez, now I’m crying over that crip and the fat girl story. Thanks a lot piny. You’re just fucking with my menopausal emotions today, aren’t you?

  74. his book is a huge seller at the bookstore where i work. i was in a bad mood one day and this guy kind of arrogant, a little cocky asked for tucker max’s book along with “the game” by neil strauss (a gem of a read about how to “hit it and quit”-of course it gives no advice what to do once you’ve gotten hep C) anyways this guy asks for both of these books and it’s late and i’m in kind of a mood so i say to him that the books are in the “date rape” aisle.
    the guy was speechless. i apologized for being irreverent and he accepted the apology, but he had this attitude like “this is what you think of me.” like he couldn’t believe that a woman would blurt something like that out or that a woman would have a strongly negative opinion about his misogynistic book choices.
    it was odd, i tell you.

  75. zuzu, I skipped ahead and haven’t read all the comments, but I just read your first, and I wanted to tell you that you are beautiful. I haven’t the foggiest notion what you look like (other than you say that you are fat), nor do I care. I love reading this blog, because of your writing (I like Piny’s and Jill’s too), and I wish I was still down in the city because I’d love to call you up and have a drink and actually meet you in person.

  76. i’m in kind of a mood so i say to him that the books are in the “date rape” aisle.

    Oh, good. I hope he thought about it.

  78. Hunh. Then nested tags, they do not work so well. Was responding to piny’s responds to zuzu, there.

  81. Except I always said that the scene early on in the cafeteria where Winona Ryder forges a note from the popular guy to Martha saying he likes her and she falls for it doesn’t ring true because she’d know right away she was being played.

    OT, and I maybe should not tell this story, but something like this actually happened to me in high school. My image then – and I suppose you could say now – was as a tall, skinny geek, and apparently a couple of senior guys (I was a sophomore at the time) thought it would be funny to forge a note in the name of one of the “hot” girls in the class we all had together.

    So I get this “secret” note from Girl X, and instantly I know something’s up. First, she never paid any attention to me previously. Second, the penmanship of the script looked “male” to me. So I just tuck it away somewhere in my folders to show to my friends later. At lunch, one of the guys who was presumably behind the joke asked about “that note from Girl X”. I feigned surprise at the fact that he would know about such a note in the first place and would come up to me out of the blue to talk about it, when he had never spoken to me before. I then said something to the effect of, “You didn’t think I’d actually fall for that, did you?” He frowned, muttered something, then walked away.

    I wasn’t even attracted to Girl X anyway.

  82. I’m not a violent person — or at least, I try not to be — but I want to knock this man down and dance on his spleen while wearing literal stiletto heels.

  83. Human beings do terrible things to one another for no apparent reason on a regular basis. He’s a hateful person for doing what he did, but what makes him even worse is that he’s proud of his actions. Most people at least have the ability to feel shame and self-hatred when they do terrible things. His lack of empathy and shame may mean that he’s actually crazy.

  84. and it’s late and i’m in kind of a mood so i say to him that the books are in the “date rape” aisle.

    HA!! Bluefish A, you are my HERO!!!

  85. You know not all the link on the web ring are terrible. I read thebunnyblog and thetrixie religiously because, well, they are witty and entertaining. The writer for thebunnyblog is a fabulous writer, by the way… And is also tucker’s ex girlfriend.

  86. Though (sorry for the double post) Tucker Max and MOST or the sites are atrocious and don’t read them if you’re not feeling sadistic. I just wanted to say that because commenter 10 metioned the webring and there are some good sites in it which are designed by Erin Tyler of thebunnyblog.

    Oh, and Tucker does not run it.

    Sorry for “lecture” but I didn’t want some of my favorite bloggers getting judged by misogynistic assholes.

  88. I’ve been thinking about this guy a lot since I spotted a link to his blog at IBTP, unfortunately. The only thing that brings me comfort is imagining a bunch of badass fat women beating the living shit out of him. I don’t think many things make me more angry than this type of arrogant, unbridled mysoginy and general assholishness. It’s not fucking funny, it’s not fucking cool, and anyone who buys into it is fucking worthless.


  89. Its validation. If a guy is a super-critical asshole like that then you must be something special if he wants to do you. “I’m not a fat chick, I’m not an ugly chick, I’m not a prude like those girls that he makes fun of. I must be something special.”

    That’s exactly it. And although I think that these women have been conditioned by the culture to think this and it’s quite pathetic, I can’t get over their collaboration with these men. I mean, it should be obvious to them that nobody should be treated like shit, even brunettes, pale chicks, and fat girls.

  90. The thing is, most men like this make fun of the blonde, tan, teeny women as well. Yes, certain women get treated like shit WAY more than most, but these type of men make fun of ALL the women they are with so they can imply they are just better than all women in general.

  91. “Human beings do terrible things to one another for no apparent reason on a regular basis. He’s a hateful person for doing what he did, but what makes him even worse is that he’s proud of his actions.”

    And what’s worse is that he’s astonishingly boring.

    I know that disdain is a common defense on the internet, but seriously, who would find that story interesting?

    I mean, he talks about it like it’s the most exotic thing in the world, but his story basically amounts to “I had sex with a fat girl but I had to get drunk first”. That’s some real fresh material there. Maybe next he’ll talk about woman drivers or airplane food.

    I mean, at least DeSade was kinda creative; Max has the combination of sociopathy and dullness that could take him to the top of the political scene.

  92. On the other hand, those of us who are still on the market have a great way to weed out the nasties: “Oh, you like Tucker Max? Bye!”

  93. You are horribly cliched. These women are armed with years of repeating themselves and memorized citations for the shit you ask. Google things yourself for God’s sake. I’m sure you know how to do it. Come down from your pedestal/high horse once in a while. The earth is pretty nice, and I think it’s the lack of air up there that makes you think that being obnoxiously sarcastic is somehow a good idea.

    You are not original, witty, or even pseudointellectual. You’re just another throb in my jugular vein. Congratulations, it took you about four comments for me to be fed up with you. Jesus Lord.

    The question was, to some extent rhetorical, and I am well aware of those arguments. Of course, plenty of other feminists have assailed those characterizations of the women who sleep with these kinds of men as being infantilizing and dehumanizing.

    Characterizations of social life as a place where naive, unsuspecting women are “fed shots” by rapists until they are incoherent and then whisked off and violated simply don’t mesh with the facts on the ground.

    In my experience, women are not as stupid as you seem to think they are; they step up to the table knowing full well what the game is. I think the devious man/naive woman scenario is imposing false roles on a setting in which all parties involved generally “hook up” by, to paraphrase Vince Vaughn, getting drunk enough to make some bad decisions.

    What Daniel is getting at is the same thing that people who blame rape victims are getting at. (No, I’m not saying you do that Daniel, just analogizing here.) See, instead of focusing on why men like Joe Francis and Tucker Max exist, Daniel believes that feminists’ intellectual energy would be better spent trying to figure out why so many women are so stupid as to fall victim to the many horrendous acts of men like them.

    The difference is, rapists will exist regardless of what women do. I think it’s absolutely fallacious to suggest that female behavior, dress, or general desirability induces men to rape. However, the fact that women tend to be sexually attracted to exactly the kind of retrograde, macho male behavior that feminism holds is a problem. Tucker Max and “Girls Gone Wild” exist because what they do works.

    Of course, one big difference is that I don’t think any women want men to be rapists, and I think women do like guys like Tucker and Francis. I also think that, in an age of effective contraceptives and fertility treatments, a guy who is selling easy coupling and easy disentanglement is going to generate more interest than a guy who is looking for some kind of partnership of equals.

    It may be that, in terms of describing the state of sexual politics between men and women, feminists don’t represent the majority female viewpoint. Andrea Dworkin wrote in “Intercourse” that the very act of sexual penetration was inherently unequal and oppressive, and she couldn’t even imagine a way that a man could operate sexually without oppressing women. I suspect that, even if some guy figured out how to do so, most women would prefer to get fucked by Tucker Max.

    It’s really fitting that piny juxtaposes Tucker and Dworkin, because Tucker operates as a counterargument to Dworkin’s thesis. Dworkin argues that the way men are is a problem, and most women seem to like men more or less the way they are, or in some cases, as unrestrained cartoon versions of the way men are.

    Different environment, apparently different man. The scenario recurs on smaller scales with angelic frat boys at their formal functions, and demonic frat boys the morning after or at other events. When you don’t know the dynamic and you’ve just met this person for the first time when they happen to be on best behavior (for a plethora of reasons we could analyze for ages), how are you supposed to know better?

    Once again, I don’t think you’re giving these women enough credit. Fraternity social events are unambigously designed to get the brothers laid.

    That’s why they buy big houses, throw parties in them, mix the drinks with grain alcohol, invite as many girls as possible, and exclude all the guys from outside the house.

    That’s why they hold their formals at hotels away from the school; so their dates can’t go home afterwards. These guys aren’t rocket scientists, they’re not hiding their motives. They don’t have the element of surprise on their side; even if the motives weren’t entirely transparant, they’ve been doing this same stuff for decades. Women are fully aware of what “frat boys” are about and still want to fuck them.

    Tucker Max is the ultimate example. Yes, he’s smart and witty, but nobody can accuse him of being nice. Maybe the girls who he slept with before he became an internet celebrity could claim not to have seen him coming, but he’s written a book that hammers the point home, repeatedly, that he’s a misogynist prick, and he’s more popular than ever. Read his internet forum and see how many women are trying to get his attention, having read all of those stories.

  94. Well, the coward doesn’t have a comments section or I would have made it clear to him that I don’t believe for a second that he had to force himself to have sex with a fat girl. How does one get hard when one is drunk and supposedly not attracted to the person one is with? Always the mystery in these stories from guys who say, “I fuck fat girls but I don’t like it.” Suuuuuuure.

  95. I’m trying to decide if it’s worse if the story is true or not, or whether or not it matters. I could remark on how often Tucker reinforces the notion that for men, what is sexy is almost entirely determined by other men (the homerotic, homosocial subtext is hardly even a “sub” text) in his nasty litte post

    Or what Hugo said. I really hate these fuckers like this. Basically they’re misogynists on crack. They are attracted physically to fat women, but they are so scared of what their friends will think they punish these women for being so hot to them. Assholes.

  96. By the way, Daniel, I’d read that story where Joe Francis forces himself on a teenager who tells him no and to quit hurting her before you say that he isn’t “forcing” anyone to do anything. Rape, last time I checked, is indeed force.

  97. I agree with you, Amanda. I think it’s the social stigma more than the actual preference. I know a lot of assholes that will preface their girlfriends to their guy friends with, “She’s not hot, but…” even though they love them and end up marrying them. I’ve heard a lot of my male friends spout that kind of bullshit and it’s always ticked me off. Why do they feel the need to have some sort of societal qualifier even though they are obviously in love?

  99. In my experience, women are not as stupid as you seem to think they are; they step up to the table knowing full well what the game is.

    That better have been a ‘general you,’ I swear to fucking God. Don’t put ANY goddamn words in my mouth. I wrote a response to you telling you that you were a shithead. I did not express ANY of my beliefs. Go to hell.

    That’s why they buy big houses, throw parties in them, mix the drinks with grain alcohol, invite as many girls as possible, and exclude all the guys from outside the house.

    Is that why their big houses tend to have some rooms that you can’t open from the inside (anecdotal evidence, I am admitting this right now, please don’t ask me for a cite)?

    As for the rest of your comment, you are a rapist sympathizer and enabler. Congratulations, once again. I’ll even send you a nifty little plaque for your wall.

  100. Oh, and Daniel… nice try at the ‘I’m not really defending rape!! I’m trying to argue that women are smart, see!!’ bullshit. I’ve been a feminist for about a year and even I see straight through this bullshit.

  101. Oh, and Daniel… nice try at the ‘I’m not really defending rape!! I’m trying to argue that women are smart, see!!’ bullshit. I’ve been a feminist for about a year and even I see straight through this bullshit.

    What a coincidence. I’ve been a Shithead for about a year. What were you before? I was a Methodist.

  102. The difference is, rapists will exist regardless of what women do. I think it’s absolutely fallacious to suggest that female behavior, dress, or general desirability induces men to rape. However, the fact that women tend to be sexually attracted to exactly the kind of retrograde, macho male behavior that feminism holds is a problem. Tucker Max and “Girls Gone Wild” exist because what they do works.

    Daniel is right about this. Scads of young women DO seek out Tuckers (I’m not talking about the woman in his story who met up with that creep before he was public about his assholeness) and DO line up to show their boobs for Girls Gone Wild videos. It’s not always about date rape – very often, young women today willingly seek out men who only want to screw them, and exploit themselves on the dance floor so that men with ogle them. Where I taught high school, there were many young teenage girls seeking out the jerks to offer them “lipsters”. There’s a scary “pro-sex” culture that’s dripping down to middle schools that’s actually “pro-blow jobs so I’ll be cool”, and girls are buying into it. They are not drunk. They are not in frat houses. They are pleasuring mini-Tuckers.

    This doesn’t negate the existance of date rape, or of asshole seduction techniques where the guy pretends to care only to get some.

    Why is Daniel’s saying this controversial? I’m not getting it.

  103. Tucker Max is the ultimate example. Yes, he’s smart and witty…

    Wow. I just saw ‘Tucker Max’ and ‘smart and witty’ like, almost right next to each other.

    I’m going to ponder how such a thing is possible for a long time now.

    See you guys in a couple of years.

    P.S. Daniel, you’re so transparent, it’s laughable.

  104. This is all much ado about nothing… when guys like Tucker Max (Who in my opinion is probably exaggerating when it comes to most of these “sexcapades”) stop getting attention from women, they’ll probably just disappear.

  105. And once again, it’s the fault of women that these guys exist.

    Dude, it’s not women buying his videos for the most part.

  106. Andrew, if you think he’s probably exaggerating about the “sexcapades,” why do you think he’ll go away if women don’t sleep with him? Wouldn’t it be easier, and more profitable, for him to stay, and make up a suitable bunch of lies?

  107. Before being a feminist, I lived a much more comfortable and complacent life.

    Nowadays, I get to read comments by people like you, who are Diet Feminists and like to say ‘omg everyone should be equal!’ except you want to be able to victim blame and insult people at the same time.

    Fuckin’ A, man, at least come right out and say that you think the bitch was asking for it instead of this ‘I’m just saying I don’t think women are stupid and they know they’re gonna get raped!!’ garbage.

  108. much ado about nothing; because the guy’s, so, well, -normal,- really.

    which, well, exactly the goddam point.

    it’s -not- unusual.

    he’s just gotten his fifteen minutes is all.

    bleah.

  109. Before being a feminist, I lived a much more comfortable and complacent life.

    Well, here’s to a year of making yourself uncomfortable.

    Nowadays, I get to read comments by people like you, who are Diet Feminists and like to say ‘omg everyone should be equal!’ except you want to be able to victim blame and insult people at the same time.

    Actually, I just want to insult people.

    Fuckin’ A, man, at least come right out and say that you think the bitch was asking for it instead of this ‘I’m just saying I don’t think women are stupid and they know they’re gonna get raped!!’ garbage.

    Unless you’re a stalwart believer in the ideas of Andrea Dworkin, it’s generally accepted that we live in a world where women have sex with men without being raped. Some women have sex with frat boys without being raped. Some women even have sex with Tucker Max without being raped. Why does everything with you have to be about rape?

    I’m talking about the disconnect between a lot of feminist complaints about male behavior and the fact that the precise behavior complained about is considered sexy by many women. Tucker Max and Joe Francis are a couple of extreme examples, unrestrained ids running wild. And a lot of women seem to really dig these guys and want to impress them.

    To expand it to the broader point I was trying to make, men who have tried to conform to the feminist ideal of male behavior have found that it doesn’t make them more attractive to women. Similarly, if conforming to the feminist ideal of male behavior did make a man more attractive to women, a lot more men would probably conform their behavior to the feminist ideal.

    Or, more concisely, the fact that most women seem to like our dicks encourages us to disregard Andrea Dworkin. And I don’t blame anyone for that, because I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing.

    All I’m saying is that maybe these women aren’t clueless idiots, zombies brainwashed by the patriarchy, or rape victims. Maybe they just like Tucker Max, or frat boys, or guys in general. I think that’s what all of us are sort of going for.

    Is that why their big houses tend to have some rooms that you can’t open from the inside (anecdotal evidence, I am admitting this right now, please don’t ask me for a cite)?

    On the subject of your alleged rape rooms in frat houses, what manner of contractor would install such a room in the house? Do you call up Fred’s Discount Insulation and Rape Rooms and ask for an estimate? Do you think the guys are building them themselves? Are frat boys secretly the Bob Vilas of forced sex?

    How do you think national fraternities, which inspect local chapters, and whose entire purpose is to guard against liability, would react to a rape room?

    How do you think universities, which frequently own the frat houses and lease them to the students would respond?

    How do you think fraternity exec board members, who are frequently honor students building resumes toward high-powered jobs, would respond to that kind of thing in their house, knowing that, were it to be discovered, their own careers would be destroyed?

    And do you really think, if word got out that a fraternity built rape rooms into their house, that its members could get women to hang out at the house? Fraternities get reputations on campus, and the frats that have bad reputations become unpopular with the girls, and then become unpopular with pledges, and then can’t rent rooms in their houses and then they lose the houses.

    A big part of the fraternity’s appeal is that the greeks are considered to be an elite group on campus, and that being affiliated with a prestigious fraternity will make the members more attractive to at least some women. Why would a potential pledge affiliate himself with a chapter that was known for being rapists?

    Are you just making shit up?

  111. A big part of the fraternity’s appeal is that the greeks are considered to be an elite group on campus

    I actually thought it was the fact that they mostly have cool houses to live in. I remember getting into a nice house on campus instead of a dorm as being a big deal, especially if you got a bad draw number.

  112. And do you really think, if word got out that a fraternity built rape rooms into their house, that its members could get women to hang out at the house? Fraternities get reputations on campus, and the frats that have bad reputations become unpopular with the girls, and then become unpopular with pledges, and then can’t rent rooms in their houses and then they lose the houses.

    Not that much, actually. Kappa Sigma got booted off my campus three years ago for doing something ridiculously stupid to their pledges (i don’t remember what exactly). Within a year, they were back in the same frat house on campus with all privileges restored. Why? Because the mayor of this fine city (along with the rest of his family) and a not-insignificant number of the board of directors are alums of Kappa Sigma. Kappa Sigs are generally known as the biggest assholes/morons on campus, yet they keep getting pledges. As for women, i don’t know if they get them or not, but that doesn’t matter much. They still have privilege in the university when they should have had their charter revoked.

  114. Oh, fuck this guy and the audience who holds him dear. Wouldn’t piss on him if he were on fire.

    I got better things to think about. Fat chick things. Ice cream. Vibrators. Project Runway. Dick Cheney naked on a February day. Whatever.

  115. >I mean, he talks about it like it’s the most exotic thing in the world, but his story basically amounts to “I had sex with a fat girl but I had to get drunk first”. That’s some real fresh material there. Maybe next he’ll talk about woman drivers or airplane food.

    I mean, at least DeSade was kinda creative; Max has the combination of sociopathy and dullness that could take him to the top of the political scene.>

    For teh win.

  116. Ok –

    I went to the original offending web-posting. I am a middle-aged, angry, straight WASP male, and *I* am sickened by what that asshole wrote. C’mon, people! I was prepared to be revolted even before I read the words “law school” and “meeting women through my website”. I couldn’t stomach even half of what I read, but I knew I wouldn’t be able to. What did y’all expect? *This is the sort of thing nice guys complain about – he’s a shyster-in-training. He is going to act like a shyster-in training. Starve him.

    This creep is representative of nothing. Women and men need to deal with the actual men and women in their company, not random freakshows culled off the exhibitionist internet.

    h p burkett
    austin, tx

  117. Ah yes I’m some stupid feminazi bitch who’s just PERFECTLY UNREASONABLE and letting my HYSTERICAL ANGER get in the way of having a ‘discussion.’ Don’t address me condescendingly or like I’m some sort of fucking child here. Jesus.

    A lot of things are about rape to me because I think it’s a major tool of the patriarchy to oppress women. It doesn’t help that almost every single one of my friends has been raped, including me.

    And uhh, I don’t know what makes shit better about TuckerMax and Francis that they haven’t raped EVERY SINGLE WOMAN they’ve encountered.

    Oh for fuck’s sake I’m done with you. You’re just a disrespectful sexist little shit. Fuck it, man.

  118. To expand it to the broader point I was trying to make, men who have tried to conform to the feminist ideal of male behavior have found that it doesn’t make them more attractive to women. Similarly, if conforming to the feminist ideal of male behavior did make a man more attractive to women, a lot more men would probably conform their behavior to the feminist ideal.

    I’m not even sure why I’m responding to you, Daniel, since so much of what you say is obvious bullshit. But this excerpt in particular grates. Nice, feminist men get some. Get married even. My husband, who treats women with respect, gets sex on regular basis from several women. You don’t have to be an asshole to get love or sex, and I hate hate hate the stereotype that you do. You may have to be an asshole to get sex from someone with such low self-esteem she’s built her life around being a trophy you can show off to your friends, however. Most of my sweet male friends are happy and having the amount of sex they want (some are monogamous, some not) while the assholes, as they age, get lonely.

  119. I’m talking about the disconnect between a lot of feminist complaints about male behavior and the fact that the precise behavior complained about is considered sexy by many women. Tucker Max and Joe Francis are a couple of extreme examples, unrestrained ids running wild. And a lot of women seem to really dig these guys and want to impress them.

    Unless I’m misunderstanding you, this seems like a pretty weak line of reasoning. Feminists claim Tucker Max and Joe Francis are sexist assholes. You suggest that there’s something wrong with this claim because Tucker Max and Joe Francis are popular. But arent you relying on the dubious premise that it’s impossible to be a popular sexist asshole?

    To expand it to the broader point I was trying to make, men who have tried to conform to the feminist ideal of male behavior have found that it doesn’t make them more attractive to women. Similarly, if conforming to the feminist ideal of male behavior did make a man more attractive to women, a lot more men would probably conform their behavior to the feminist ideal.

    Daniel, the point of feminism is not to get men laid. You can be a pretty big jerk and still get laid. Failing to neuter your pet, treating your secretary like crap, and discriminating against black people are all things you shouldn’t do, but not because they’ll prevent you from getting laid (they probably won’t). They’re things you shouldn’t do because you should act like a halfway decent human being. If the only reason you’re not completely cruel, irresponsible, and neglectful of those around you is because you’re worried about its effects on your chances of getting laid, then God help you, you’re a sociopath. (Generic you, not you you. I would not presume to comment on your personal psychiatric health, as I am hardly qualified.)

    I should also point out that while wastes of space like Tucker Max do sometimes get laid, it’s not like feminist men are failing to get any action. If I may use him as an example, Hugo’s ranked as one of the “hot” professors on RMP. None of my exes (I am fortunate in that my exes are all lovely, good people) has had any subsequent trouble attracting female attention. Bertrand Russell got laid a whole lot. (OK, Russell was kind of a jerk in many respects, but I don’t think you can call him a sexist jerk.)

    All I’m saying is that maybe these women aren’t clueless idiots, zombies brainwashed by the patriarchy, or rape victims. Maybe they just like Tucker Max, or frat boys, or guys in general. I think that’s what all of us are sort of going for.

    There’s a lot of space between “zombie” and “reasonable person making a completely reasonable choice”. People who gamble excessively aren’t brainwashed zombies, but there’s something a bit unhealthy about the dynamic. People who have a “savior” complex and keep seeking out dysfunctional boyfriends or girlfriends are not brainwashed zombies either, but again, that doesn’t mean there’s nothing screwed up going on.

    Of course, there are women who like to screw anyone who’s cute, regardless of personality. I have no objections to that on any level, except insofar as I think it’s a beastly world where Tucker Max is ever allowed to get laid.

  120. Creeping Jenny, I would like to stand up and applaud.

    Daniel: not every girl goes for misogynist assholes. A lot of girls – and women – go for nice guys and find that they aren’t interested.

  121. Should misquoting/misrepresenting Andrea Dworkin be considered an instantly bannable offense?

    I’ve already got the wolverines working on the problem of people abusing Swift. Perhaps a tank of sharks with frickin’ laser beams on their heads for the Dworkin misquoters.

  122. Actually, a frat that operated at my alma mater was rumored to have shown videos of guys having sex with women to pledges, and when the frat was about to be kicked off of campus because of fighting, there were still chicks with thier dumb ass save pike shirts.

  123. See, what I’d like to see is the feminist sociological explanation of why Joe Francis and Tucker Max, despite willfully creating reputations for themselves as misogynists, find that they have an inexhaustible supply of attractive women willing to have sex with them.

    Prolly for the same reason that so many out-and-out bitches have an inexaustible supply of self-proclaimed “nice guys” who will moon over them, do all sorts of things for them, and put up with being used and treated like shit by said out-and-out bitches.

    Nah. Not too much projection there on your part.

  124. I’ve already got the wolverines working on the problem of people abusing Swift. Perhaps a tank of sharks with frickin’ laser beams on their heads for the Dworkin misquoters.

    Dude. Amazons, rusty garden shears. Nuff said.

  125. I think there’s two things that count for these guys’ appeal, such as it is.

    The first is that they’ve established themselves as the meatspace equivalent of a ratings community. Many of the women who sleep with these guys may think that it establishes them as more desirable than the women who don’t.

    The second reason is that we have a societal perception of men that’s similar to the virgin/slut dichotomy – men who want casual sex (the fewer strings, the better), and men who want a capital-letter Relationship. Much of the appeal of the Joe Francis or Tucker Max, I think, is that they’re obviously not going to stay in a woman’s life when she’s done with them.

    Finally, while I do think that these women are smarter than people like Tucker Max and Joe Francis give them credit for, that’s a refutal of the “dumb girl” attitude and not an excuse for it. They don’t get to talk about how they manipulate their conquests into bed, and then turn around and say that it’s totally all right because they were smart enough to not get involved if they didn’t want to, and they knew (or should have known) what they were in for. If that’s the case, why all the trickery and game-playing?

  126. Daniel, it would be way too much work to list even a few of the more egregious recent instances of a fraternity doing stuff where people ended up flat out dead and somehow they are still around, so please take my word for it. Everything you said could easily be applied to our lax buddies at Duke; even if you believe them, why the f- risk it all when your team is already on some kind of social probation to hire some low grade strippers, get into some kind of silly dispute with one of them who is drunk over her performance/money, and then write an e-mail on a university account the next day talking about killing stippers? Answer? Because the patriarcy has given them assurances that they will not suffer the consequences of their incredibly poor behavior and judgment. The school won’t kick them out, they’ll still get into graduate school, hell the women on campus (at least some) will wear bracelets supporting them. When you give people the continuous message that they are untouchable, eventually, don’t you think they will believe?

  127. Where the fuck is the evidence that feminist men aren’t attractive to women? And where the fuck is the evidence that women are attracted to Francis and Tucker Max? They can get some women to sleep with them, sure, but how many? And how much is because of attraction, as opposed to deeper psychological issues or economic reasons?

  128. Another reason, besides attraction, that women might sleep with Francis and Max: lies. Max and Francis frequently misrepresent themselves to the women they’re trying to charm, by their own admission. Not every woman has read countless articles about the misogyny of these two.

  129. This is the “appeal,” such as it is:

    1) The guys are sociopaths; they’re capable of being very charming when they want to. They also have an uncanny radar for the vulnerable–the new-in-town, the isolated, the recently hurt, the down-and-out, the low self-esteem’d. You know. Same as cult leaders.

    2) In the case of the less polished sociopaths (i.e. “assholes”), they tend to make up for their lack of charm with a steam-roller-like persistence. They also tend to exaggerate their own charms and success stories. They are sometimes enabled in this regard by the fact that women in this culture are trained to be polite and not offend anyone, and old habits die hard. Most people tend to take certain gracefully evasive gestures as the code they are meant to be (also see: Japan, the Old South). (And yes, this does sometimes include the mercy fuck). Chronic jerks, being as insensitive to nuance and social mores as they are to everything else, are thus apt to paint a rather rosier picture of their “successes” than would a more conscious person.

    3) Sometimes, despite having all the charm and sensitivity of a stoned moose, jerky-boy might actually be physically attractive enough that the woman might overlook his more annoying qualities and go for the booty call anyway. The next morning jerky-cute turns into a toxic puddle of hatespew, but who could anticipate him being -that- jerky? and, oh, the head, it aches.

  131. Wow! I read this whole thread, and it wasn’t until post 129 that someone seriously mentioned sociopathy. Thank you, belledame222.

    If this is Tucker Max for real, then I am glad when I see stuff like this linked. The writings are very hurtful, but I like to have warnings against obvious sociopaths.

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