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Transsexual Horndog Menace

I got my first real transphobic right-wing troll! Well, not counting that guy who wanted to make sure I told my partners first because they might kill themselves if they accidentally had sex with a transguy. I know it’s naive, but I almost wonder if he’s even real. I mean, look at that mullet!

Here we go:

Trans-thing Piny, at Feministe (ptui), is of the opinion that it is perfectly fine and dandy for a transexual – she-male – to go ahead and have sex with whoever, and it’s your bad, you mean ol’ bigot, you; if you object.

Not so, Pink – er, Blue, er – Lavender Ranger.

If I can’t get acceptance or tolerance, can I at least get some decent snark? If I had a nickel for everyone who used the tired old, “It’s a boy, no, wait, a girl, no, wait, a he-she,” I could buy chest surgery for my entire calling circle.

But some clarification: I do not actually have any problem with cisgendered people rejecting transsexuals as partners. It seems to be a point of confusion every time I write about transsexuals getting busy. I’m not sure why. This is simple sexual interest. It’s not immune to cultural pressure, but it’s much more apolitical than, say, a willingness to employ transsexuals or rent to them or stop killing them. I think it’s fair to say that increasing acceptance of transpeople will result in increasing desire for them as sexual and romantic partners, which is why it’s infinitely easier for any given transsexual to get laid here in San Francisco than in, say, Lubbock. The truth is a lot more appealing than the various available stereotypes, and its dissemination will make us hotter prospects. This is not to say that any individual’s current unwillingness to sleep with a tranny is necessarily gonna change after the revolution, nor that it should, let alone that it must change now. Rejection is not transphobic. In fact–and I’ve said this before, too–some transsexuals are not attracted to other transsexuals. I know!

My problem with this doctor’s words on this television show was that he argued something that is not true: that transsexuals get themselves killed because they are desperate enough to sleep with dangerous prospects in dangerous ways. This is an insidious lie. I would have hammered that point even more, but I assumed that anyone reading would be smart enough to understand that.

I really don’t give a damn about your opinion about gender being constructed or not – the goods had better be as advertised. Maybe you don’t deserve to wind up in a culvert somewhere, but before kiss one happens, whoever it is you are flirting with needs to know that the contents don’t match the package, or you do deserve to wind up in an ER getting your jaw wired back together. And if I am on the damn jury, they will walk. And if I am on your civil suit jury, if I have anything to say about it, you better have your insurance paid up.
And I don’t care how pretty of a girl you dress up to be and what kind of giggles you get from raping – yes, rape – straight men, or trying to. God help you if I reach down and find equipment there that shouldn’t be – you’ll get that fucking operation a hell of a lot quicker than you dreamed, cause I’ll rip the motherfucker out by the root.

I think he’s saying that a post-op transwoman can hop into bed with him anytime.

Some of the commenters were precious, too (to be fair, some of them, this guy included, did argue that transpeople should not be murdered nor yet beaten up for sleeping with unwitting partners):

Indeed, because victims are never ever even minutely responsible for their actions, especially so called protected classes. Morals, ethics, honesty? These things don’t matter… I have no problem with trans-people etc. but folks have a damn right to know whats under the hood before they start dancin the horizontal mambo.

You know you’re having a bad day when all your responses want to start with, “Listen, dipshit…” And this was one of the more trans-positive ones.

I’m tempted to just quote my original post. Hell, I’m gonna do that, with a little annotation for the slower readers out there:

We get killed for the same reasons, and in much the same circumstances, as the victims of other hate crimes. Whenever we are visible, we are in danger. Whenever we are known, we are in danger. Other queer people are also the victims of hate crimes involving family, friends, spouses, and sexual partners. Trina Schart Hyman’s husband broke her jaw when she came out to him. We don’t get murdered because we trust the wrong people or have the temerity to try to fuck like normal people. We don’t get murdered because we hate ourselves–internalized transphobia is not the problem. We get murdered because there are people out there who murder transsexuals.

See? For the record, I don’t agree that transpeople who get killed by intimate partners are responsible for their murders either. However, the point I was making was this: just like other queers, most of us don’t get killed by intimate partners. Most of us get killed by transphobic assholes who refer to us by names like “she-male” and “trans thing.” Brandon Teena wasn’t fucking John Lotter. Lana Tisdale didn’t rape Brandon or stab him to death. The deceptive tranny mantis is largely a figment of the overactive imaginations of anxious straight dudes like Party in the Back over here.

Or one of his commenters, who seems to be pretty well-acquainted with transsexuals and cross-dressers:

NYMOM, If these cross dressers all looked like NYMOM(YOU), men would not have any worries, but some(many) of them are very appealing to the wondering(prowling) eye.

I’ve seen several mainstream media representations–CSI, Law & Order, Without a Trace (arguably), Ally McBeal (arguably), The Crying Game. I know of only one case in which a transwoman was killed after sleeping with the transphobic assholes who murdered her–and she was a seventeen-year-old girl.

Most of us don’t go out and have sex with people without very carefully handling trans status first. This is particularly true of any encounter that might involve someone getting into our pants. Why? Well, it’s dangerous to just hope they won’t find out in bed, or that they won’t be surprised or displeased when they do. It’s not very much fun to have sex with someone who can’t get anywhere near your junk, let alone someone you don’t trust. It’s not necessary to getting laid–it’s not hard to find people who will love you and want you altogether. It’s also not necessary to getting killed. Our presence is incendiary. We are punished for existing, for walking down the street. I’m gonna go ahead and call that unreasonable.

I can think of a lot of other examples of deception, incidentally. What if I’m a bisexual woman, and I tell a biphobic lesbian that I haven’t ever slept with men, because I know that said biphobic lesbian would immediately cease to see me as hot and wonderful, and instead see me as a lying, cheating, disease-ridden, crazy slut? What if I am not in fact a lying, cheating, disease-ridden, crazy slut? What if I’m dating you, and I’m HIV positive, and I tell you after we see each other several times, maybe after some light necking, but before there’s any risk to your health whatsoever? What if you’re the seropositive one, and I tell you that I’ve been with lots of pos guys and can’t wait to jump your bones, even though the thought of sexual contact with an infected person makes me break out in a cold sweat? What if I really like you? What if I’m already thinking about breaking it off? What if I have a serious or maybe even terminal illness, and I keep quiet about it for a little while even though I know you’re falling in love with me and want to plan a future together? What if I have a gambling addiction, and I let you marry your finances to mine? What if I’m an alcoholic? What if I’m married, and I let you think I’m single?

What if I’m sterile, and I bite my lip whenever you tell me how much you want to have lots of babies? What if I simply hate children? What if I think I might change my mind? What if I’m secretly taking birth control, even though I know you consider non-procreative sex to be an abomination? What if I secretly abort? What if I’m a lapsed Catholic, and I lie to you about the strength of my devotion because I know that you are deeply religious and want your children to be brought up in your faith? What if Islam is becoming more and more vital to me every day? What if I pass as a different race or ethnicity, because I’m terrified of racism? What if you yourself are deeply racist? What if I lie about my background, either because you distrust the rich or because you hate the poor?

What if I smile and nod when you tell me that you’re poly, even though the thought of your lovely self hopping into bed with anyone else makes me slightly ill? What if I have a whole bunch of affairs and let you keep believing that I’m as faithful to you as you are to me? What if I swear up and down that I’m not sleeping around anymore? What if I’m actually gay, and I let you think that I want you as a wife just as much as you want me for a husband? What if I’m actually a lesbian in love with another woman, and I don’t tell you because I’m afraid of you? What if I’m really trying to want you? What if I don’t love you anymore, for whatever reason? What if I tell you you’re lovely and amazing, even though I see you as pathetic and disgusting? What if I tell you that casual sex is just fine, when I’m really desperately in love with you?

All of these practices are deceitful; some might inspire varying degrees of empathy; at least a few will be familiar to people reading. But is any sex that occurs within those relationships rape? I thought the feminists were supposed to be the ones with the overly-broad definition. Rape, generally speaking, is when you force someone to have sex with you when they do not consent. If they’re unconscious or inebriated, it’s rape. If you threaten them, it’s rape. If you restrain them, it’s rape. That’s different from using false pretences to get someone to consent to sex with you. Lying happens all the time, and yet it’s only transpeople and certain other queers who are seen as chronic deceivers.


41 thoughts on Transsexual Horndog Menace

  1. I felt physically ill reading that guy’s site. Every time I hear someone say something like “you do deserve to wind up in an ER getting your jaw wired back together” I get massively uncomfortable. The fact that anyone thinks it’s okay to inflict that kind of violence on someone in a situation that could easily be remedied with an “Oh, I didn’t realize you had a penis, no thanks” is evidence of bigotry, plain and simple. It’s hatred, and that just makes me sicker than anything.

    Also, I don’t understand how it’s “rape” if someone finds out that the “woman” they think they’re with has a dick and they politely turn down sex. If the transperson forces him/herself on the other guy, then yeah, sure, that’s rape like anything else, but I don’t think that’s what he’s talking about here.

    Sorry, I’m barely able to get my thoughts together. I don’t know how you deal with this stuff so calmly, I really don’t.

  2. What assholes. Those guys are morons.

    If someone were to have sex with me under any of the false pretenses you list, I would be pissed off. If someone were to tell me he was ok with my open marriage and with casual sex, but was really in love with me and trying to break up my marriage, I would stop sleeping with him and maybe stop speaking with him. But he would not deserve to be beaten up or killed. Nobody deserves to be beaten up and killed.

  3. Where is the logic?

    People who boast about what sort of violence they would inflict on transsexuals, if they found out their status, whine about transpeople not being open enough about their status? Are transpeople just supposed to be sure that it would be met with “gee, thanks for telling me that”, when dealing with total strangers?

    Deception is bad, and I can’t claim to completely understand the motives of transsexuals, but I don’t think finding out that “goods are not as advertised” (is there a sign that says, “pussy here”, I wonder?), gives anyone the right to get violent out of some misguided notion of “honor”.

  4. I’ll restate my post from the thread in question:

    This guy is a hateful little shit who deserves to be rejected and shunned by anyone with an operating conscience.

    I still can’t believe someone vaguely recognizable as human would use such a disgusting slur as “trans-thing.”

    Beyond that, Bryan’s post up there adequately represents my views on this subject.

  5. I hate to post this question on this entry, b/c it doesn’t really fit in with the topic, but I just realized one of the people posting on this blog is a transgendered person, and I’ve always had a question about that.

    Whether it’s male-to-female or female-to-male, doesn’t the act of surgery make it impossible to have an orgasm? I mean, the genitals are constructed, so it would be physically possible to have sex, but would the feelings be there? Do female-to-male trans have erections?

    I understand that people feel inside like they are the opposite gender, but if cutting off/into the genitals would mess with the nerves and I wouldn’t be able to have an orgasm again, I think I’d take a pass on the surgery.

  6. I hate to post this question on this entry, b/c it doesn’t really fit in with the topic, but I just realized one of the people posting on this blog is a transgendered person, and I’ve always had a question about that.

    Whether it’s male-to-female or female-to-male, doesn’t the act of surgery make it impossible to have an orgasm? I mean, the genitals are constructed, so it would be physically possible to have sex, but would the feelings be there? Do female-to-male trans have erections?

    I understand that people feel inside like they are the opposite gender, but if cutting off/into the genitals would mess with the nerves and I wouldn’t be able to have an orgasm again, I think I’d take a pass on the surgery.

    No. Severe loss of sensation is a danger, as is anorgasmia. That’s true whenever you take a knife to a human body, and the tissue in this case is both sensitive and complex. Some loss of sensation is much more likely. However, the vaginoplasty technique is designed to keep the erogenous tissue intact–it doesn’t go away, it’s just moved inside. Most transpeople report satisfaction with their bottom surgery results, including sexual satisfaction. As Kate Bornstein put it, “The plumbing works and so does the electricity!” Microsurgery techniques have become more sophisticated over the past few decades, as well, and surgeons have become more adept at preserving sensation and more sensitive to the desires of their patients wrt function as well as form.

    Bear in mind, also, that many of the transpeople who seek out bottom surgery have difficulty enjoying sex with their genitals as originally configured. Potential loss of sensation has to be weighed against the certainty of dysphoria.

    I’ll do some checking around later and see if I can’t find some statistics and more detailed information on surgical techniques, risks, and results. You might want to google around yourself, and see what you can find.

    Here’s an article on the two types of bottom surgery available for trans guys; it lays out benefits and problems.

    http://netscape.planetout.com/people/columns/green/archive/20000816.html

    And here’s a search via Yahoo:

    http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/Cultures_and_Groups/Lesbian__Gay__Bisexual__and_Transgendered/Transgendered/Female_to_Male__FTM_/Sex_Reassignment_Surgery/

  7. A new sentence takes the place of honor on my Wall of Understatement:

    I think he’s saying that a post-op transwoman can hop into bed with him anytime.

    Brilliant, just brilliant.

  8. It’s Gonzman: the creepy MRA troll on Hugo’s blog.

    He looks like what he is, doesn’t he? With the mullet and the Fu Manchu, he looks like he is desperately trying to achieve an idealized image of manhood he has in his head to counteract his maddening consciousness of his shortcomings.

  9. Yeah, I noticed that as well, Antigone. *shudder* (What’s even more disturbing to me is that Hugo has him blogrolled.)

    BTW, is ptui some acronym of which I ought to be aware? Google’s best suggestion is plan text user interface.

  10. Gonzman? No, I’m sure that’s an old publicity still of Derek Smalls from “This is Spinal Tap.”

  11. “Ptui” is the sound you make when you spit, I think. Also, he’s already got a response to this post up. No, it’s no better than the first–although it’s ample evidence as to why some stupidities are better left under the rock.

  12. Gonzman? No, I’m sure that’s an old publicity still of Derek Smalls from “This is Spinal Tap.”

    Oops. The one mockumentary I still haven’t seen. Oh, well. There are plenty of other things to mock him for.

  13. gonzman claims to be a ‘proud’ member of the vast right-wing conspiracy.

    nuff said.

  14. I like how men’s insecurity with their sexuality always gets blamed on someone else. Can’t maturely navigate the waters of adult seuxality? Why just rape ’em then, or beat them the fuck up!

  15. Piny is there a supporting reference to the “transgendered people don’t get killed by intimate partners” quote? I have researched and found the horrific stat that the murder rate is 17 times that of the general population, but have been unable to find any information on perpetrator patterns.

  16. piny,

    I think you handled the response to this troll very nicely!! great job!! Assholes like this really make my blood boil.

    Just a couple thoughts,
    I’ve read a fair bit about transsexuality (I’m a feminist philosophy student) from a sort of theoretical standpoint – Kate Bornstein is great. I also work with two plastic surgeons (I know, weird job for a feminist, but we do what we have to do to pay for our education, and it is HIGHLY educational working there) who both do gender re-assignment surgery, so I do know more about transsexuals than the average person who isn’t trans or doesn’t know a transperson intimately. I studied a great book by Viviane Namaste called Sex Change, Social Change, and she challenges a lot of the usual feminist angles on transsexuality – like the argument that transpeople challenge gender roles. Her argument is that transpeople don’t in fact challenge gender roles – they just want to embody the opposite role to the one they were given based on their genitalia. It’s a really interesting book – I found it very challenging in lots of ways, and I didn’t always agree with her, particularly on her points about the social construction of gender and transsexuality and prostitution, but I highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in transsexual theory. (Viviane Namaste is a transwoman and a professor of gender studies at the Simone de Beauvoir Institute at Concordia University in Montreal.)

  17. There was a Southern Poverty Law Center report on violence against trans people a while ago with some stats and analysis of trends, it’s here if you’re interested: http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=149

    Violence against trans people is very heavily influenced by race and class though. Although you certainly dramatically increase your risk of violence by transitioning, there are particular populations (particularly trans women forced into street sex work or homelessness) who are much more likely to experience serious sexual and physical violence.

    But some clarification: I do not actually have any problem with cisgendered people rejecting transsexuals as partners. It seems to be a point of confusion every time I write about transsexuals getting busy. I’m not sure why. This is simple sexual interest.

    What about a situation where someone’s clearly sexually interested and ceases to be after the “reveal” ? I’m assuming here that the trans person in question isn’t visibly trans and that their body no longer differs markedly from the norm expected of their gender. In the context of something casual, how would the entire loss of sexual interest not be at least a bit problematic?

    Lying happens all the time, and yet it’s only transpeople and certain other queers who are seen as chronic deceivers.

    Yep, and it’s the minority group (queer, trans whatever) on whom the burden of disclosure gets placed. Assuming the safety and intimacy issues away, do you think there should be a reasonable the expectation for trans people to disclose in order to accomdate the potential views of partners?

  18. Piny, at Feministe (ptui), is of the opinion that it is perfectly fine and dandy for a transexual – she-male – to go ahead and have sex with whoever,

    How is it not? (If everyone involved knows as much as they want to know.)

  19. Piny is there a supporting reference to the “transgendered people don’t get killed by intimate partners” quote? I have researched and found the horrific stat that the murder rate is 17 times that of the general population, but have been unable to find any information on perpetrator patterns.

    I really should try to find a cite, shouldn’t I? This is from everything I’ve read, e.g. on the Remembering Our Dead site, where the most common method seems to be “shot to death.” Plus, speaking as a transsexual: this just isn’t something we do.

    I don’t dispute that transpeople are as vulnerable to the people they’re romantically involved with as any other group. That’s very different from saying that we get murdered because we go looking for love in all the wrong places.

  20. Violence against trans people is very heavily influenced by race and class though. Although you certainly dramatically increase your risk of violence by transitioning, there are particular populations (particularly trans women forced into street sex work or homelessness) who are much more likely to experience serious sexual and physical violence.

    Absolutely.

    What about a situation where someone’s clearly sexually interested and ceases to be after the “reveal” ? I’m assuming here that the trans person in question isn’t visibly trans and that their body no longer differs markedly from the norm expected of their gender. In the context of something casual, how would the entire loss of sexual interest not be at least a bit problematic?

    I see that as the result of social transphobia such that transpeople are not potential romantic partners. I didn’t mean to argue that sexual attraction is not affected by transphobia, or that it’s not “problematic” in that sense. However, I respect the right to reject whomever you don’t want to sleep with for whatever reason, and don’t see that as remotely similar to injuring someone because they didn’t help you protect yourself from tranny cooties.

    Yep, and it’s the minority group (queer, trans whatever) on whom the burden of disclosure gets placed. Assuming the safety and intimacy issues away, do you think there should be a reasonable the expectation for trans people to disclose in order to accomdate the potential views of partners?

    Yup. In this city, there are enough of us and enough visibility for us that people really should know well enough to ask if it bothers them so much.

    To be honest, any thinking about “no longer differs markedly from the norm” is kind of abstract for me personally. I and my community don’t get to have bodies that don’t differ markedly from the norm; there is no procedure that will accomplish that. I’ve never dated without disclosing, and am in fact new to romantic spaces that aren’t pretty trans focused (good for solving problems like this one; bad for chasers). I’ve approached people without disclosing, however. I would correspond and date someone prior to disclosing, but would tell them prior to intimacy. It’s normal for post-transition people to become acquainted with potential partners prior to disclosing, AFAIK; that’s how you get from “tranny” in the abstract to “this hot and wonderful person who is also a transsexual.” It’s also how you avoid chasers.

    What do you think?

  21. However, I respect the right to reject whomever you don’t want to sleep with for whatever reason, and don’t see that as remotely similar to injuring someone because they didn’t help you protect yourself from tranny cooties.

    Absolutely, I’m not suggesting that people don’t have the right to reject people on whatever basis. Nor am I trying to draw a comparison between violence and sexual rejection. But there’s some extent to which I can’t help but react to a partner’s issues with a “if you have a problem with me and my body, then you should deal with it, not me.” In part I think that’s down to the feeling that the discourse around trans bodies is so skewed by the whole “eew, trannies” narrative that having a non-transphobically influenced reaction is a bit difficult.

    To be honest, any thinking about “no longer differs markedly from the norm” is kind of abstract for me personally. I and my community don’t get to have bodies that don’t differ markedly from the norm; there is no procedure that will accomplish that. I’ve never dated without disclosing, and am in fact new to romantic spaces that aren’t pretty trans focused

    Point taken about the “markedly differs” bit; I’m overgeneralising to all trans people without thinking, I’m sorry about that.

    I’d also never date or have sex (except in a small number of situations) without disclosing. Ultimately, the idea of having sex with someone and not have them know that important thing about my body seems really weird. I’ve never really participated in trans spaces, so I can’t speak to that, but so far my experience of dating in non-trans spaces has been very positive. For pretty much everyone I’ve been with post-transition my identity has been a positive and something that made me more intriguing (hence my self-indulgent complaint about always being found “interesting” on the other thread.)

    It’s normal for post-transition people to become acquainted with potential partners prior to disclosing, AFAIK; that’s how you get from “tranny” in the abstract to “this hot and wonderful person who is also a transsexual.” It’s also how you avoid chasers.

    It’s the degree to which the getting to know people overbalances the “tranny” aspect I guess. For example, where I live there are a number of queer clubs and various lesbian clubs. The social context of the queer clubs is such that I’d be pretty confident of being able to meet someone there, take her home and not have anything unexpected except a conversation about trans issues occur. I wouldn’t do that in a lesbian club. In that situation I’d want to get to know the person before anything happened, on the basis that I’d be scared that otherwise the “tranny” tag would be overpowering. But then if I’m in drag when I meet them, or otherwise performing gender in a very non-trans stereotyped way, I’m less bothered again because I tend to feel I have a hedge against them assuming things and passing judgements about me on the basis of being trans. I do have a slightly bad habit of telling people when we’re half clothed though, which realistically is going to be kind of embarassing at some stage. At what stage do you start to talk about your identity?

    I do kind of worry about whether the degree to which I’m concerned about being perceived as my own unique self is reflective of having issues over being trans, and hence people perceiving me as trans. I very much want to be seen as me over and above anything else; interestingly, I’ve incorporated other aspects of my identity that carry a lot of stigma (extensive SI scars for example) into my self-concept, but I still have a slightly arms length relationship with being trans. In part I think that’s down to very strongly rejecting a transsexual\transgender identity and not wanting people to put me in those boxes, rather than trans\queer ones, and partly due to feeling little affinity with the trans women’s community. There’s also the huge privilege of being able to make these choices and exist in the world without having it constantly force me into a particular box.

    Yup. In this city, there are enough of us and enough visibility for us that people really should know well enough to ask if it bothers them so much.

    I’m really interested in seeing what SF & NYC are like in terms of queer visibility. I’m particularly looking forward to visiting a city with the queer density of SF.

  22. Also, I don’t understand how it’s “rape” if someone finds out that the “woman” they think they’re with has a dick and they politely turn down sex. I

    Because to these types of men a dick is a tool of dominance and they intend to be the dominators; the sole dick wearers.

    To be presented a penis in the context of submissive feminity which in their minds, exists to affirm their macho status, causes great consternation and insult to their entire being. Especially if said dick wearer-incognito was desirable to them.

  23. and clearly, piny, none of those other hypothetical deceptive scenarios matter because you are missing the real point here:

    SOMEONE MIGHT TRICK MULLET BOY INTO GETTING HOMO COOTIES.

    next thing you know, he might start getting all, you know, sensitive. watch the sunset. cry at movies. talk about his feelings (other than murderous rage, that is).

    he might even have the urge to get a goddam haircut and shave.

    he might even god forbid haved liked kissing the girl who turned out to have a penis.

    clearly a fate worse than death; and anyone even so much as threatening to put a fine specimen of a man like this in such a position deserves whatever sie gets.

  24. Thing is, I did have a friend who killed himself for that very reason.

    Yes straight men will have a variety of reactions if they have sexual relations with another man unbenosted to them.

    Suicide is one, murder another.

  25. Belledame, I’m embarassed to admit that I don’t even know what “benosted” means, and therefore I can’t work out what “unbenosted” means. Is “benosted” some religious status that applies to the relationship? Syntactically, that would make sense. It looks like a latinate word that could be an ecclesiastical term, but I have a good non-specialist’s understanding of ecclesiastical terms (I just finished MacCullough’s Reformation).

    I’m at a loss to determine what this commenter is saying. Apparently, if this poor departed friend and his partner were “benosted,” there would have been no problem. But since I don’t know what that means, I can’t say much more than that.

  26. Oh, see, he was making an archaic English reference. You know, “nost” is a contraction for “knowest not,” so “unbenosted” would be, like, “he didn’t not know.” Makes perfect sense.

  27. Well, then, Katie, this makes perfect sense. The young man was unable to conceal from himself that he realized that his sex partner was a transwoman. Having failed in his attempt to consciously avoid knowledge that his sex partner was a transperson, he was haunted by his own inability to come to terms with his sexual desire for a transwoman … and killed himself. If he had been benosted, he could, upon seeing the transwoman’s penis, simply have told himself, “gee, I didn’t know she had one of those! Perhaps if I had asked, I could have avoided the confusion!” But instead, wracked by the consequences of his foreknowledge, he killed himself.

  28. I just read that little turd. If I hadn’t foolishly forgotten my wordpress login, I would tell him the following:

    Get your facts straight (npi), dipshit. The one who “rapes” straight men is me, not piny. piny and I are two different people living on two different continents, although it’s understandable how someone as breathtakingly ignorant as you might get two such very different people confused.

    Regarding whether consensual sex can become rape after the event if facts previously unknown come to light: I wonder whether you consider date rape to be a case of “morning after regret”? If so, what makes the regrets of a straight man worth more than those of a woman?

    …It’s probably better that I forgot my login.

  29. Piny,

    It would be really cool if you (or someone) were to do more research into the assertion you made that most trans people don’t get killed / assaulted / etc. by people they’ve had intimate relationships. I’ve heard a lot of different indicators on that topic… for one thing, the SPLC report linked above by Tarn has some quotes from activists suggesting that a number of violent incidents do stem from some kind of sexual relationship — not necessarily the “omg you deceived me” chestnut, which I think you’re right about, is a fiction, but other more complex scenarios.

    For instance, I remember reading a police blotter report in the not too distant past that described the murderer of a trans woman as having had sex with her (possibly for money) and then after getting “found out” by some other guys who mocked him, went back and shot her. And it’s not the only time I’ve heard about scenarios like that in one way or another; partner conceals the fact that they’re sleeping with a trans person, and may be really conflicted or in other relationships; something happens to disrupt this situation and possibly expose the partner; the trans person is the disposable “freak” who gets retaliated against somehow. Combine all that with the intensely vulnerable, marginalized situations that trans people, especially younger trans women of color, so often find themselves in, and it starts to sound frighteningly more plausible than the dumb “omg you deceived me I kill you” idea, right? And perhaps more plausible than the “roving band of transphobes” straw man that sometimes gets summoned into discussions like these as a counter-chestnut.

    We should be really, really deeply disturbed if there are trends like these. Violence that takes place “closer to home” is more frightening in some ways than being scared of a transphobic bogeyman. And it speaks to the issues that affect partners — shame, rigidity of identity categories, the mixture of transphobia with homophobia, the fact that it’s just so often NOT OK to like trans people, even if you’re say, a relatively privileged progressive-minded queer.

    Some of this ends up with me feeling like your stance on “refusing to sleep with trans people” is a bit of a cop-out too, even though I agree with you that choosing and not choosing partners ought to be an inviolable right. (Or is this a place where the language of rights fails? I’m not sure.) I can see why it’s necessary to put a stake in the ground there when arguing with trolls. But at the same time, they’re fucking trolls. Might it not be more important to call out the fact that to be really responsible about our own role in the economies of sexual desire, which are heavily political and make a huge difference in the well-being and life outcomes of so many people, we have to perform a complicated balancing act between our own necessary autonomy about who we sleep with, and understanding how our desire is heavily constructed by society?

    I have to go out on a limb for a second and admit that I have problems feeling attracted to fat people. Not “obese” whatever that means in this society, but just fat, healthy and fat, which I do believe is quite possible. And I can’t reconcile that with my political beliefs that all kinds of bodies should be OK and desirable; I find myself unable to deal and I want to push myself. Obviously I’m not going to force myself to hop in bed with someone who’s fat, that would be degrading and an insult and generally stupid; but I do feel like I have a shitload of work to do on the subject, unraveling my own issues with my own weight, with images and influences that I’ve absorbed from an early age, etc. I couldn’t possibly just sit back and say “oh well, I guess I’m just not into fat people, nothing to be done about that!” To me that would be almost as bad as wearing a t-shirt that says “No Fat Chicks!” I don’t believe that sexual desire is permanent or unmalleable or outside the bounds of political responsibility; although there is no way anyone should be “forced” to engage, we can make a choice to, and I think it can be a responsible choice.

    So the same thing goes for trans bodies: not what the mainstream culture would lead you to believe bodies should be like. But trans bodies should be OK and desirable too, and accepting / not accepting those bodies is an inherently political act.

  30. It would be really cool if you (or someone) were to do more research into the assertion you made that most trans people don’t get killed / assaulted / etc. by people they’ve had intimate relationships. I’ve heard a lot of different indicators on that topic… for one thing, the SPLC report linked above by Tarn has some quotes from activists suggesting that a number of violent incidents do stem from some kind of sexual relationship — not necessarily the “omg you deceived me” chestnut, which I think you’re right about, is a fiction, but other more complex scenarios.

    This is a good idea. I’m having a lot of trouble finding statistics for trans murders in general; it seems like there’s a lot of disagreement over which deaths should be counted as hate crimes. Plus, most studies don’t differentiate between “anti-homosexual” and “transphobic.” Studies involving questions to trans populations are more specific, but they don’t really talk about partner violence. We’re also talking about a marginalized population, so their deaths might not be tracked as hate crimes or even occasion much notice at all.

    Combine all that with the intensely vulnerable, marginalized situations that trans people, especially younger trans women of color, so often find themselves in, and it starts to sound frighteningly more plausible than the dumb “omg you deceived me I kill you” idea, right? And perhaps more plausible than the “roving band of transphobes” straw man that sometimes gets summoned into discussions like these as a counter-chestnut.

    Definitely more plausible than the first situation; not necessarily more plausible than the second. Like you said, research, but given the amount of casual street harassment transpeople receive, it’s not difficult for me to believe that a lot of trans murders are just…bashing. And although few accounts are detailed enough to settle the question of whether it could have been relationship-related, some of them just don’t seem like anything else.

    OTOH, I know that sleeping with a transsexual is considered disgusting, so your scenario is a very valid one. It’s also true that Brandon Teena’s murder fits into this, albeit not entirely: he was killed because of someone’s anxiety over his sexuality and rage over Brandon’s relationships. He was also subjected to sexualized violence beforehand.

    Some of this ends up with me feeling like your stance on “refusing to sleep with trans people” is a bit of a cop-out too, even though I agree with you that choosing and not choosing partners ought to be an inviolable right. (Or is this a place where the language of rights fails? I’m not sure.) I can see why it’s necessary to put a stake in the ground there when arguing with trolls. But at the same time, they’re fucking trolls. Might it not be more important to call out the fact that to be really responsible about our own role in the economies of sexual desire, which are heavily political and make a huge difference in the well-being and life outcomes of so many people, we have to perform a complicated balancing act between our own necessary autonomy about who we sleep with, and understanding how our desire is heavily constructed by society?

    Can you clarify this a little bit? I’m not sure exactly how it conflicts with my position, although I understand how I can be seen to have been simplifying for the sake of the Gonzman here.

  31. I was referring to this part of your original post, piny:

    But some clarification: I do not actually have any problem with cisgendered people rejecting transsexuals as partners. It seems to be a point of confusion every time I write about transsexuals getting busy. I’m not sure why. This is simple sexual interest. It’s not immune to cultural pressure, but it’s much more apolitical than, say, a willingness to employ transsexuals or rent to them or stop killing them.

    And in the same vein, numerous other disclaimers that you and other people (heck, me too) have deployed to try and defuse the “oh my god how can you say I HAVE to sleep with a bio-male, that’s rape” kind of argument. The idea that ends up getting protected is “it’s ok to reject trans people as partners” as a specific corollary of “it’s ok for anyone to reject anyone else as a partner.” I’m actually glad that you went into more detail about how it’s not immune to cultural pressure, which I think is how that quote differs from the usual “no no, really, it’s ok to reject trans people” line in the sand.

    What I worry about is that if we keep having to draw that line, the flip side of the issue gets neglected. I’m not really sure that sexual economies (who is desirable, who’s not, who ends up getting more booty) is much more apolitical, as you say, than economies of jobs and housing and violence. Sex is a basic human need and has a lot to do with people’s well-being. And it’s not always true that “there’s someone out there for everyone,” some types of bodies are devalued to a degree that, when combined with other factors, cut people off from what others enjoy a more plentiful supply of.

    And like I said before, I do believe this has to be balanced against the very real need for everyone to have autonomy over their own sexual choices. I don’t believe you could mandate “sex for everyone” in some kind of socialist land-reform kind of way. There’s no “forcing” people to desire, or saying “you have to do this.” But even so, I feel there are ways we can each be more responsible about the ways we participate in economies of sex and desire and contribute to the inequities therein. I just wanted to raise that as a more radical stance that might be easy to overlook when trying to build a dam against idiots, one that I hope could be discussed more on blogs like this.

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