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The Feminists Killed Kitty Genovese

Is there anything that we can’t blame feminism for?

From the comments over at Dawn Eden’s place, we have some deep thoughts about marriage, women, and how feminists have totally fucked shit up. And apparently, it’s our fault when a woman is stabbed to death and none of the 38 onlookers call the police:

I believe that Planned Parenthood, NARAL, et al. are in a sense responsible for instances like the Kitty Genovese case.

NARAL sorts are, in a nutshell, saying to the larger community:
“Don’t impose your morals on me. Get your rosaries out of my ovaries. It’s my choice. I’m autonomous. No man’s gonna’ tell me what to do…”

The weary response of the community is to say (specifically, here, to the young women in society):
“OK. OK. Alright, already. I won’t butt into your life. Do whatever the heck you wan’t. Go get your &*%#$ abortion. Go, sleep with a dozen men per week.”

Genovese was left to die by a society that had gotten the message, so to speak, that truly modern sorts don’t meddle in one another’s affairs.

To put a finer tip on my point, the upshot is that men and women are told, more and more, to disassociate from one another. In a world where no one harrasses one another, also no one counsels or helps the other.

Aside from her assailant, Kitty was autonomous in the ally.


Right. Autonomy will get you killed. I think my favorite part is the idea that harassment is a good thing, because without it no one would help anyone else. Because when that guy cat-calls you on the street or screams at you as you walk into an abortion clinic, he’s really just trying to counsel and help you.

And the fun doesn’t stop there, kids. No, someone actually says, “A lot of guys don’t buy the cow when they get the milk for free.” And they say it without a hint of irony.

And then there’s the 50s nostalgia thread. Ah, the good old days:

It is simply absurd to assert that we were as “liberated” as today. There may be some class differences and rural vs city differences to be taken into account but as someone who came of age in a solidly middle class family in a solidly middle class high school I can tell you that us teens were generally horrified by pre-marital sex and were extremely harsh on those we suspected of “going all the way”. There was still a Florence Crittenden home (refuge for pregnant teens to hide out in until birth) in my town. We used to peek at the girls going in and out with a combination of horror and sympathy.

To clear up any confusion, she’s explaining why the 1950s were better times.

If only we could return to our solid middle class morals of yore, and leave the fornicating to the poor people.

When someone points out that the 1950s weren’t exactly ideal for women, gays and lesbians, people of color and various other groups, the respones are… interesting. And completely revisionist. Because, look, the blacks had it good back then and the homos were really treated quite well:

In high school, “going all the way” was a huge accusation, something the other girls whispered about. Good girls may have fallen too, but the only girls generally known to do so were sluts. Same with drug use. This was still the case when I graduated in 74, but it disintegrated fast after that.

We had our homos, public and private–Paul Lynde, Liberace, etc, and two boys in the neighborhood grew up to be gay. One of our gym coaches was assumed to be lesbian. These people weren’t shunned or persecuted. Because what sexually active homosexuals actually do to each other wasn’t widely known, homos were looked on with bemusement rather than disgust. Homosexuals belonged to the world of broad comedy–check out old movies–but aggressive, predatory homosexuals were perverts of the darkest morality and we didn’t know much about them other than the occasional lurid news story. As for the neighbor boys, I remember sensing something was off and feeling concerned and dismayed. They gravitated away from us rather than we from them.

Advertisers and schools did not sexualize children. We were allowed innocence and gradual awakening, even in L.A. in the 60s and 70s. Decent people, especially girls and women, did not spout four-letter words or make lewd jokes, and the while we girls worked hard to be sexy and win erotic attention (as has been the case from time immemorial), we were more sophisticated about it in the way we dressed–not exactly modest by historical standards, but not like the sad girls of today either, who hang out our wares like fishmongers with a load to sell before it rots.

…is that “fishmonger” line referencing what I think it is? Because, eew.

The 1950s were a very bad time to be black.

Except living in Harlem then was safer then it is now and it was a much more family oriented neighborhood. There were more black families, and now 80% of black children are born out-or-wedlock compared to 12% then.

While I agree that we should never “go back” so to speak, because realistically, we just can’t. And yes, somethings have changed for the better, some for the worse. But let’s give credit where credit is due about things that were fixed that weren’t broken and visa versa.

Of course we shouldn’t go back, because that’s physically impossible! But the system where black people knew their place was working just fine until these “civil rights” liberals had to go screw everything up.

I also like the line about how there were more black families in Harlem in the 1950s — clearly indicating that the commenter doesn’t perceive a single-parent househeld to be a “family.” No, if you’re a single parent, then you are family-less. Go get hitched, sinner.

I do not take as a given that the 1950s were a worse time for blacks either. Obviously they were worse in terms of civil rights. But the black underclass today is quite arguably worse off than it was in the 1950s. The cycle of poverty has gotten worse and the breakdown of morality is the reason. In the 1950s the black illegitimacy rate was 22%. Today it is nearly 70% (in the ghetto it is over 90%).

He then goes on to refer to the black community as “our underclass.”

I don’t know that many people wish that gay people would go back into hiding, but I do think that many people wish that sexuality would return to the privacy of the bedroom where it belongs. Most people, “small-minded” social conservatives included, simply do not care, much less obsess, about “what other people do in the privacy of their homes.” But we do care that such sexuality has been forced upon us. We do care that the sexuality of supposed privately-minded people gets publicly imposed upon us.

Lance is gay? What business is it of mine that Lance is gay? And why does he and his publicist and People magazine think that it is appropriate to impose it on the world? It is none of my business, just as it is none of my business what Pamela Anderson and Kid Rock do in their bedroom (no matter how many video cameras she brings in with her).

Because identifying as gay is the exact same thing as releasing a video of you having sex with your partner.

The “quit shoving your sexuality in my face!” line is perhaps one of my favorite homophobic arguments. Because of course, when a straight couple walks down the street holding hands, they aren’t shoving their sexuality in anyone’s face. When a straight couple gets married, they aren’t shoving their sexuality in anyone’s face. When it’s simply assumed that everyone is straight, sexuality isn’t being shoved in anyone’s face. When I mention “my boyfriend…,” I’m not shoving my sexuality in anyone’s face. And I’d imagine this guy would argue that heterosexuality certainly is not being forced on anyone. But if a person simply says “I’m gay,” they’re forcing their sexuality on you. Funny how that works.

And then there are those unladylike women:

I was born in ’72, and there was a time in my lifetime that even though boys were able to get away with being a bit more crass, girls really were not supposed to curse, or be too loud. I saw that start to change with one wild and crazy free-spirited girl in HS, then two, then three. I have to admit, at the time I thought the one girl like that was cool. Now all girls are wild, crazy, free-spirited and speak their minds with all kinds of four-letter words, and a lack of any original adjectives, it is almost a cliche. And the respect for becoming ladies has all but vanished.

Girls being wild? Free-spirited? Loud? Speaking their minds?? Sweet Jesus, someone get me some smelling salts, for this is just too much for my fragile feminine disposition.

Now it’s time for me to step slowly away from the Dawn Eden.

(No, I’m not back to blogging regularly, I just had some downtime in Belgrade and decided to torture myself.)


50 thoughts on The Feminists Killed Kitty Genovese

  1. You know, I really can’t stand this. I just went over there and left a comment. After I PROHIBITED myself from engaging these people ever again.

    This is bad for my health.

  2. Natalia, you’re wise and perceptive to see when things like that are or aren’t worth the life energy you put into it. I go through phases of engaging that bullshit and not. I tend to be happier when I’m not.

  3. Man, they’ve got some bush-league reactionaries over at Dawn’s place. A lesbian bartender is raped and murdered, and the best they can come up with is “NARAL did it”?

    Pikers.

  4. I was born in ‘72…one wild and crazy free-spirited girl in HS, then two, then three…Now all girls are wild, crazy, free-spirited…And the respect for becoming ladies has all but vanished.

    OK, born in ’72 means this, ahh, “person,” graduated high school in, leesee, 1990. They’re pining away for those calm, gentle 80s, back when Madonna was such a nice girl, and those ugly words that some people used could only be heard in PG rated movies. Yes, so much has changed in the last 20 years, it amazing we’ve all survived it.

    The whole “Dawn Eden” thing has got to be one giant joke site sponsored by The Onion, right? No one could actually be this delusional, could they?

  5. Kitty Genovese was killed because the more people there are witnessing something bad, the more people one can assume will take responsibility and call.

    The comparison between Lance Bass coming out and knowing what goes on in the bedrooms of heterosexual celebrities is a completely incorrect analogy. We don’t know any more now than before about what goes on in Lance’s bedroom. Instead, we now know that the people with whom he shares romantic and/or sexual love are of the same sex, the same way we have known for quite some time that the people with whom Pam and Kid share romantic or sexual love are of the opposite sex. People who talk about “flaunting” one’s homosexuality forget that almost every straight person “flaunts” their heterosexuality every time they appear in public with their opposite sex partners, talk about any of their relationships or sex partners, discuss their plans for marriage, etc. Why do these heterosexuals keep insisting that we know what goes on in their bedrooms? I don’t care who you’re having sex with in there, you damned perverts!

  6. …as someone who came of age in a solidly middle class family in a solidly middle class high school I can tell you that us teens were generally horrified by pre-marital sex and were extremely harsh on those we suspected of “going all the way”.

    Do you know how horrified they were back then of premarital sex? They were so horrified that, according to Stephanie Coontz, 1 in 3 brides were pregnant when they got married! They were so horrified by teenage sexuality that nearly 50% of brides and grooms were teenagers. Teen pregnancy peaked in the ’50s — I think we can breathe a sigh of relief that we live in a time when teenagers have the ability to be saddled with neither pregnancy nor marriage. If they could just get rid of the burden of holier-than-thou slut-baiters telling them how freakin’ innocent they all were in their poodle-skirt days…

  7. Oh, and another thing:

    Kitty Genovese was killed because the more people there are witnessing something bad, the more people one can assume will take responsibility and call.

    This is true, but it’s more than that. There’ve been studies that show this effect is multiplied when race is a factor — a lone bystander is more likely to help a black victim than a white victim because to leave the black victim to their fate would force the bystander to face their own racism. But a bystander in a crowd of bystanders is more likely to stay out of the fight because the thought that someone else will intervene lets them walk away without having to face their own racism.

    I’d imagine something similar is at work with gender, or possibly with any maligned group.

  8. There’ve been studies that show this effect is multiplied when race is a factor — a lone bystander is more likely to help a black victim than a white victim because to leave the black victim to their fate would force the bystander to face their own racism. But a bystander in a crowd of bystanders is more likely to stay out of the fight because the thought that someone else will intervene lets them walk away without having to face their own racism.

    Dustin, would you be able to give a link or the name of one of those studies, please?

    I’ve just tried to google ‘bystander effect’ and ‘race’, but to no avail.

  9. Read the Death and Life of Great American Cities for some really interesting discussion of casual policing of the streets, when it works, and why it fails. In a way, the choices made in urban development and the percieved nature of a ‘neighborhood’ can have as much of an effect on what happens during a crime as the psychology of the bystanders.

    Written by a professor who actually did research instead of deciding what she wanted the situation to mean and jumping to absurdist conclusions.

    Also, she knew how to spell ‘alley’.

  10. So, all my friends in high school in the 80s were foul-mouthed, opinionated, vibrant, mostly-sexually-active aberrations of nature. Good to know! Thanks for enlightening me, oh wise penis-bearer!

  11. Ah, I hate to bring up the (potentially) very obvious, or assume that D.E. didn’t mention this but… Kitty Genovese died in *1964*. It’s been pretty much proven that the 38 so-called witnesses probably didn’t see much of anything at all (very little light, screening trees, and building angles); they were NOT all gathered around watching, for example, nor were they even all in a group. (They were in their own separate apartments, and it was quite late at night.) This event happened before I was even born, and she’s getting worked up about this NOW?!?

    For gosh sakes, I hope no one tells her that President Kennedy has been shot and is presumed dead!

    /sarcasm

    Source for my info on Ms. Genovese:
    http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/kitty_genovese/1.html

    (Sorry, I am technologically inept, and have NO idea how to make that an actual link. I am assuming we can all figure out how to copy/paste, though…)

    (Also, don’t ask me why I have that site bookmarked. It’s a chilling and scary place. But comes in useful when I have to look up things like Andrea Yates’ case, since the name was familiar but I couldn’t recall what I had heard.)

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  13. Liss,

    Samuel L. Gaertner and John F. Dovidio, who did some of the early research on the Ketty Genovese incident, discuss their research on the race factor in “On the Nature of Contemporary Prejudice: The Causes, Consequences, and Challenges of Aversicve Racism” in 1998, _Confronting Racism: The Problem and the Responses_, ed. Jennifer L. Eberhardt and Susan T. Fiske.

    While looking at this article, something occurred to me: Kitty Genovese was killed in 1964 — a hell of a lot closer to those Golden Years when women were respected and good folk stopped brutal attacks than to the post-feminist non-involvement era that supposedly haunts us today. How’d that happen?

  14. I love the “we assumed our gym coaches were lesbians” line in the DE comments, because we all know tired-ass stereotypes just ooze proof of social justice.

  15. Hmmm. What got changed, what got changed. There was nothing obscene there. Probably just something inconsequential that pissed off Dawn. Something a little bit too… *ahem* penetrating than she can take.

    Or maybe something dumb.

    I can’t remember, and I shouldn’t care.

  16. If they could just get rid of the burden of holier-than-thou slut-baiters telling them how freakin’ innocent they all were in their poodle-skirt days…

    There’s a famous book that details exactly how “innocent” those days were. It’s called Peyton Place.

  17. The other thing that a few people pointed out about these returns to the 1950s and early 1960s is that most of the people who are saying it was such an innocent time were children or early adolescents then.

  18. your comment is now marked “editted by site owner.”

    Dawn has been on a censorship kick lately. I documented an example of the ridiculousness of her double standards here.

  19. I love it! Someone in the comment thread brings up the point that Kitty Genovese died in 1964, when there was no NARAL and PP didn’t perform abortions, and this is the response:

    i’m tempted to take the sarcastic route, and say “nice try, though” right back to you.

    My remarks were meant in a general sense. The philosophy currently put forth by Planned Parenthood, in my opinion, is the same philosophy that dulled the souls of Kitty’s neighbors, even some 40-odd years ago.
    New York’s always been ahead of the curve 🙁

    To be nitpicky, though, PP probably was sharpening their tools in ’64.

    I’ve got to advert my eyes. I can’t really afford to lose any more blood vessels.

  20. I checked Wikipedia on Kitty Genovese and found the following:

    While Genovese’s neighbors were vilified by the article, in truth “38 onlookers who did nothing” is a misleading conception. The article begins:

    For more than half an hour thirty-eight respectable, law-abiding citizens in Queens watched a killer stalk and stab a woman in three separate attacks in Kew Gardens.

    This lead is dramatic and factually inaccurate. None of the witnesses observed the attacks in their entirety. Because of the layout of the complex and the fact that each attack took place in a different location as Genovese attempted to flee her attacker, it would have been physically impossible for a witness to have seen the entire attack. Most only heard portions of the incident without realizing its seriousness, a few saw only small portions of the initial assault, and no witnesses directly saw the final rape and attack in an exterior hallway which resulted in Genovese’s death.

    A few more details will help: the attack occurred in late October, 1964, on a cold night, at 3:15 a.m. Very few people had their windows open and most would have been running some kind of noisy heaters. Thus, very few people would have been awake, and fewer still could have heard anything through closed windows and over radiator noise. Sheesh. Not only is Eden wrong, but she’s spreading a 42 – year – old lie.

    Finally, even if the whole murder myth were true, the people who ignored Ms. G’s screams for help were all raised in the idyllic 50’s and back, and therefore their attitudes represent those of Miss E’s ideal world, not those of the Evil 60’s.

  21. Oddly enough, the various times I’ve discussed this in academia I’ve never even heard this argument raised. What on earth do feminists have to do with it? Nothing, I suppose, which is the point…

    Though it does make me think I should replay a tip from my EMT class, which I fervently hope nobody here ever really needs to use, but which you really should know:

    If you need help, and if possible to do so, POINT and IDENTIFY and give SPECIFICS.

    Say “You, there, in the yellow shirt, call 911 and request an ambulance.”
    (don’t say “someone, call for help.” nobody will know who is supposed to do it, and you don’t know what they’ll do–call their mother or father, perhaps.)

    Say “You there, come over here and help me; I will tell you what to do.”
    (don’t say “someone, help me.” They won’t know who, and they won’t know what to do)

    Say “You in the green shirt: Go to the car and see if there are any people in it. Come back immediately and let me know.”

    and so on.

    As I said: Hope you all never need to know this. And you probably ALREADY know it in your head, but it’s better if more people have it fixed in their mind.

  22. Oh, God. I just wasted 20 minutes of my life over there. This one was a gem!

    “Anyone who doesn’t link up the high diagnosis rate of ADHD with fatherlessness is not that bright. How are single women and female teachers supposed to control boys they can’t smack? They can’t, so they’re going to drug them.”

    YOU HAVE TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME!

  23. “Anyone who doesn’t link up the high diagnosis rate of ADHD with fatherlessness is not that bright.”

    Yeah, ’cause that totally describes the one nephew I have who has been diagnosed. With his totally present, blue collar worker type father with the racist/sexist/what-have-you tendencies (aka, being a redneck). Also, because boys were NEVER out of control back in the Golden Days of Yore.

    Yikes.

  24. Actually, Kitty Genovese was killed in no small part because people thought her boyfriend was just smacking her around a little, and who was going to get involved with something as normal and natural as that, back in the Good Old Days – or today–?

    (hat tip to ginmar)

  25. Who told these people women weren’t (aren’t) supposed to cuss and be loud? What do words or volume have to do with being a good person? I was raised to be strong PERSON, that is allowed to use whatever words I want at whatever volume. Maybe if more women were taught to yell “GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM ME YOUR PRICK!!” they could actually get noticed while being attacked on a public street. I don’t think talking in a breathy, sexy voice, while saying, “Sir, please dislodge your pee-pee from my hee-hee.” is going to draw much attention. If women follow Dawn Eden’s advice who would hear them while being attacked? Thank the gods I was raised by hillbillys!

  26. How are single women and female teachers supposed to control boys they can’t smack? They can’t, so they’re going to drug them.

    taking notes
    1. keep ’em hungry
    2. drug ’em

  27. Finally, would the wingnuts proofread occasionally? Small roads are called “alleys,” spelled with an “e.” She has Ms. G. being alone in an “ally,” as in treaty partner, which is far creepier than being solitary in a back street.

  28. The jaw-dropping comment for me was the one that went (paraphrased): Commenter X says that clinically depressed people were given electroshock therapy as if it’s a bad thing.

  29. Heh? Feminists are responsible for the bystander effect? Just out of curiosity, is it still our fault when it’s a *man* in visible distress and no one helps (which is not, as pointed out above, what happened to Ms. Genovese)? I remember one of my profs – his name is eluding me, unfortunately – discussing bystander studies in the 1960s, in which he and others simulated illness and fell to the ground in well-populated areas including streets and the subway, and people detoured around them with nothing more than a mild expression of distaste. White male, broad daylight, no possible way to read any kind of victim-blaming sex-based bullshit into it at all. I would challenge Ms. Eden to blame the feminists for this, but I’m just getting over a stomach thing and am tired of being nauseated.

  30. So… why were people raised in the golden age of the 40s and 50s so incredibly influenced by the messages of organisations that didn’t even exist?

    I mean… what?

    What is wrong with these people?

  31. wow, the ADHD thing, damn. so how does that explain me, a female overachiever honors student with a very present and active set of (hetero)parents, who was diagnosed with it at age 23?

    man, i love getting to be a living proof of someone else’s faulty logic.

  32. I blame my ADHD on my dad for sure, especially since he was the primary breadwinner and has been married to my mother for almost 40 years.

    Fatherlessness my ass.

  33. As a third year Behavioural Scientist majoring in Psychology, I find it extremely offensive that she’d use the sad story of Kitty as an example of anything other than how people are stupid in groups.
    We watched a taped experiment in second year about the Bystander Effect. Basically a guy in a room is filling out a survey which he thinks is what the test is about, when smoke starts coming out of a vent near his foot. Straight away he goes out of the room and tells the receptionist. Then we watch the same thing but with three people. This time when the smoke comes pouring out, they all sit there. They glance at it awkwardly and glance at eachother.

    They do not move.

    As the smoke continues to fill the room, one guy takes out a cigarette and lights it.

    PLEASE explain to me how that has ANYTHING to do with changing social values and conservative crazy-types trying to attribute every social problem and crime to progressive agendas.

  34. Now all girls are wild, crazy, free-spirited and speak their minds with all kinds of four-letter words, and a lack of any original adjectives, it is almost a cliche. And the respect for becoming ladies has all but vanished.

    This dickweed doesn’t know what respect is

  35. White male, broad daylight, no possible way to read any kind of victim-blaming sex-based bullshit into it at all. I would challenge Ms. Eden to blame the feminists for this, but I’m just getting over a stomach thing and am tired of being nauseated.

    Perhaps she means it in the same way that we feminists are supposed to just shut up so that if we’re ever on the Titanic again, those sweet gents will still let us on the lifeboats. The argument seems similar: women can expect no common decency from people (the same decency given to men, ie not raping and killing them for being men) unless we’re subservient and silent. They claim that this is the case on the basis of the lack of rape complaints or reported violence against women at times when women were more subservient, completely ignoring the hidden nature of the violence of those times.

  36. oh my god. it’s gotta be performance art. no one can be this fuckwitted and get through life without, like, choking to death on their own toenails, CAN THEY???

  37. oh my god. it’s gotta be performance art. no one can be this fuckwitted and get through life without, like, choking to death on their own toenails, CAN THEY???

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

    This is my quote of the week!

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