In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set || First feminist blog on the internet

Some details are off, therefore the victim lied!

[O]ur trust in her was misplaced.” Hey guys, that rape survivor we interviewed? She’s totally, like, untrustworthy and everyone should ignore her!

Huh? Why did a middle-aged man who lords over managerial editing at Rolling Stone dismiss his own magazine’s investigation into rape culture at University of Virginia? Did Will Dana discover UVA’s leaders are actually really nice and don’t systematically violate the civil rights of survivors? Did he find evidence refuting UVA’s decades-long reputation for sweeping sexual violence under the rug? Did he obtain a reasonable explanation from UVA’s president for why the school punishes cheaters more than rapists?

Nah, it was much more mundane. For folks not following this case closely – which is understandable, given how much ugliness is erupting simultaneously this month  – here’s literally* what happened…

  1. On November 19th, Rolling Stone published an article examining sexual violence at UVA. Most of it revolved around the alleged gang rape of a student pseudonymed “Jackie”, and the school’s apathy toward addressing rape generally. But the article also cited multiple survivors who reported virtually identical experiences with UVA’s indifference toward preventing rape on campus.
  1. Subsequently, The Washington Post and other media outlets interviewed Jackie or sought statements from the fraternity involved in the alleged attack. Shockingly, the frat denied its members raped Jackie or did anything that could reflect poorly on its proud name. (Surprising, huh?) Equally shockingly, Jackie’s friends told The Post that a whopping two aspects in the article didn’t match what they’d heard from Jackie – firstly the severity of the assault, and secondly the exact frat where one attacker lived.
  1. Caught between competing claims that Jackie’s gang rape wasn’t as awful as had been reported, and the frat’s denial that its members were trained rapists, the editor of Rolling Stone decided a follow-up investigation into those claims was too much trouble and issued a statement on December 5th, attacking Jackie for not giving both sides of the story. “[W]e have come to the conclusion that our trust in her was misplaced.

Wait, what? How the hell is that even relevant to the main criticism of your magazine’s article, namely that the writer refused to interview the men Jackie claims assaulted her? Given that the fraternity was obviously going to disagree on whether they really gang-raped Jackie, is that a credible reason to smear your source as a liar?

* Because that’s literally what happened. Rolling Stone reported on Jackie’s rape, and then heard a different story from the alleged rapists. Then the magazine decided, despite the fraternity’s weak attempts at proving nothing happened, versus numerous past complaints and an ongoing federal investigation into UVA’s mishandling of campus rape, that the fraternity’s version of events was enough to dismiss the victim as untrustworthy.

Jackie had asked the writer to not contact her alleged attackers prior to publication, for fear of reprisal. Given the sordid history of schools retaliating against survivors, this was a reasonable sentiment. In fact, given how conservatives are now exploiting the magazine’s dismissal of Jackie’s trustworthiness as an excuse to threaten and harass her, Jackie was indeed correct to fear for her safety.

And that’s the fault of Rolling Stone. Whilst it surreptitiously edited out part of its apology about how “our trust in her was misplaced”, blaming the victim for the magazine’s shortcomings was not only a re-victimisation of Jackie, but an obscenity against victims everywhere.

Nor are the folks at The Post who’ve continued investigating Jackie’s case – basically doing what Rolling Stone arguably should have done first – at fault for smearing Jackie. They never argued that her story was fabricated, merely that holes existed because the magazine didn’t cover both sides. Thanks to the magazine’s cowardly betrayal of a survivor, anti-women conservatives are now having a field day with painting the case as an outright hoax, dismissing violence against women as liberal paranoia.

Even Erik Wemple, writer for The Post and a leading voice for investigating holes in Jackie’s case, reacted with disgust to how Rolling Stone responded by attacking Jackie as a fraud. “[M]isogynistic… victim-blaming” was what he called it. Those on the side-lines had choicer words: “a brutal setback for women”, “a gift to rape apologists” that could set back survivor advocates by “30 years”.

Rolling Stone shouldn’t be ashamed for bad journalism. Even the best outlets end up with subpar stories sometimes. Instead, Rolling Stone should be ashamed for acting vilely toward a survivor. Common decency isn’t too much to ask.


40 thoughts on Some details are off, therefore the victim lied!

  1. It’s not clear if Rolling stone has any expierence interviewing trauma victims. They never took into account her disorientation afterwards and it was two years ago. This was just really badly done. In general, i think video not written accounts is better at correctly conveying a survivor’s story. It allows emotions to translate better. Also, we all can clearly see the questions the reporter asked and failed to ask.

  2. I especially like how, in the Post’s retelling of the story, the frat’s claim that “there were no sanctioned events” the night of the rape becomes, “there were no events that night.”

  3. Just want to point out that just because someone lies about one thing, it doesn’t mean they lie about EVERYTHING. We’ve all lied, doesn’t mean we can’t bear trusted to report a rape. Maybe Jackie lied about x,y, and z, maybe not, but that isn’t proof that she’s lying about being raped.

    1. Yup. And that happens because a single lie against a woman, no matter how irrelevant, is enough to enable misogynists to effectively attack her character – and also, in doing so, conceal the reality of male violence.

      Even in the case of a woman who has actually lied about something irrelevant, misogynists inevitably find ways to attack her. A woman’s lie is considered proof that she is a liar, whereas a man’s mendacious behavior is instead assumed to be only incidental, and never a significant stain on his character.

  4. Surely no powerful prestigious institution would lie through an attorney! Nope, she must be lying, because women lie and frats never do.

    You know, I’m pretty sure the same people who are slavering over this story as a chance to reinforce their LADIES ARE CRAZY AND/OR LIARS AMIRITE worldview are the exact sort of people who used to scold me for hanging out and drinking at frats as an undergrad. Because “everyone” knows that’s stupid and/or dangerous, until suddenly someone tries to hold a frat accountable, and suddenly it isn’t.

    I have a super-conservative uncle who once asked me if I felt unsafe walking home at night down Telegraph in Berkeley. I told him the worst thing that ever happened to me on Telegraph was a homeless guy selling me bad weed, but I couldn’t say the same for Frat Row, and he actually seemed to get it.

  5. If I didn’t want to be identified I sure as shit wouldn’t say where I really worked with the asshole rapist.

  6. Well, just want to point out that alot more information has come out about the alleged gang-rape since the 5 of December when you apparently decided that Time for This Story should stop.
    Including interviews in Washington Post, New York Post, and on television for her 3 friends, including “Cindy” who was very much thrown under the bus by the lack of fact -checking in this story by Rolling Stone’s reporter.

    Others have started to raise questions about her earlier reporting. Why we should believe the rest of the article when its ‘main hook’ – the alleged gang rape – is at this point most likely totally false and it’s 50/50 at best at this point whether something even happened that was exaggerated on the retelling – is beyond me.

    Anyway, I don’t expect you to publish this. I’m too skeptical and I don’t just stick to your approved sources nor do I buy all your narrative.

    1. Why the fuck do dumbasses always say ” I don’t expect you to publish this”? Do they think their dissent is so goddamn earth shattering? The second I read that crap I immediately ignore everything said before it.

      Get the fuck over yourself.

    2. Why we should believe the rest of the article when its ‘main hook’ – the alleged gang rape – is at this point most likely totally false and it’s 50/50 at best at this point whether something even happened that was exaggerated on the retelling – is beyond me.

      Actually ALL the evidence points at SOMETHING having happened. Every single contemporary of Jackie remembers something happening to her at the time as do many she confided in afterwards.

      So why should we listen to what you have to think, when you have so little respect for the evidence, dopey?

    3. (I’m in the mood for a chew toy….)

      I’ve noticed that (on the WWW, at least) “I’m a skeptic” almost always means “I’m entitled to dismiss any evidence or logic which would tend to disagree with my preconceived conclusions.”

      And “I know you won’t publish this” always means “I know this is incoherent rubbish, but your not publishing it will prove that it’s TROO I WIN!”

  7. Rolling Stone engaged in one of the most shoddy pieces of journalism in history. Then, instead of standing up, they threw Jackie under the bus. Not sure why Rolling Stone are considered a journalistic organization in the first place; it’s an entertainment magazine. This story reveals that.

    However, Echo Zen is obfuscating the severity of the discrepancies. Turns out the guy, who’s picture she sent friends, never went to UVA; he was a man who went to the same H.S. as Jackie, but hadn’t been to UVA in six years, and didn’t really know her, and the pic was from social media. The name she gave to this guy was another man, who worked at the aquatic center, never met her, and is not a member of that fraternity – and she got the name wrong.

    It’s very likely that something happened to Jackie, but the facts do matter.

  8. It’s interesting how so many people think she is “obviously” lying because let’s be real here: Women are gang-raped by men constantly, with impunity. These rapes happen wherever men who wish to rape, a significant percentage of men, come together under circumstances that help them exploit women they consider easy prey and evade accountability afterwards. And they are helped by men who, while not necessarily willing to rape women themselves, nevertheless support rapists directly and indirectly.

    When I first heard about this story, I was horrified, but also completely unsurprised. Colleges are excellent institutions for being rapist-friendly because the forms of male bonding among college men are often explicitly supportive of sexual violence. The fact that they joke about it a lot as well only proves that they have a dangerous attitude towards sexual violence. And it’s not only many male students who are complicit in its incidence, but also much of the male college staff and administration, who often support the rapist students they know for their own gain within the institution.

    1. I Googled “gang-rape statistics” and surprisingly couldn’t find anything, just news reports of specific cases. When someone hears “gang-rape”, they generally think of 3rd-World countries. The U.S. should make a note of gang-rapes, as separate from rapes from lone perpetrators.

  9. The reason you ask the alleged rapists for comment is sometimes they produce impressive evidence that they did not commit the crime. The Duke lacrosse guys ended up producing a taxi cab driver who drove them around town, a photo from an ATM withdrawal, and cell tower data that showed that they were somewhere else at the time of the alleged attack.

    The defenses proffered by the fraternity here not as airtight, but they are notable defenses nonetheless: (1) on the night of the attack, they were not having a date function. They register all their social events, and they did not register one that night. (2) They have no members that worked at the aquatic center. (3) They did not have any pledges that fall.

    One of the themes of this article was “these guys escaped justice, and that should not have happened.” And the press sought out to get justice. But justice isn’t served by punishing someone for a crime that they did not commit.

    The real crime against journalism here was that Rolling Stone did not contact any of Jackies “friends” who were allegedly obsessed with their social status rather than getting Jackie medical attention. Rolling Stone claims it interviewed “dozens” of Jackies friends but not the three most important witnesses.

    1. Hi! My name is John and I’m going to parrot a bunch of shit that is supposed to be a big deal that TOTALLY UNDERMINES Jackie’s story but really just shows that frats lie about stuff and have parties that aren’t magically registered every single time, that a rape victim might not want to identify herself by talking about her actual workplace, that I don’t understand how unofficial pre-pledging works within the frat system. I’M AMAZING.

      1. I specifically said their defenses were not as air tight as the Duke Lacrosse guys, but the defenses are at least worth considering (and certainly worth putting in the article). In fact, the claim that they never had a member work at the pool is (1) easily verifible and (2) a pretty good defense.

        We have to at least consider the possibility (and maybe even probability) that Jackie was not raped by THIS PARTICULAR fraternity.

        Survivor advocates are that – advocates. They should believe everything a survivor says and support her. But investigators, journalists, policymakers, and adminstrators should not be advocates. They should be looking for the truth. And that looks like what happened here. The reporter sought out a sensational story, as if an ordinary rape was not bad enough:

        When she interviewed Ms. Pinkleton about her own rape experience, Pinkleton said, Erdely kept looking for the most sensational story. “When she asked about my own assault, she kept asking, ‘Did he feed you the drinks? Was he keeping tabs of the drinks that night?’ ” Pinkleton told CNN. “And he wasn’t and that’s something that I had to keep saying over and over again, and I think – I felt like she wasn’t satisfied with my perpetrator as someone who wasn’t clearly monstrous.”

        http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2014/1215/Rolling-Stone-s-UVA-rape-story-Here-s-what-we-know-so-far-video

        (Obviously a warning for discussion of rape).

    2. on the night of the attack, they were not having a date function. They register all their social events, and they did not register one that night.

      Yes, because of course a group of rapists is going to officially register a “rape event”. That totally isn’t something they would want to avoid due to their wish to evade accountability. /sarcasm

      Seriously though, most rapists aren’t that careless. Of course in a social environment in which they can evade accountability, they are going to plan their rapes secretly and do everything they can think of to silence survivors. If they aren’t already aware of how to rape people with impunity, they often will be aided by peers, staff and administration. This has proven to be true over and over again.

      1. Maybe they (1) planned an elaborate gang rape with men hiding in a closet while (2) having a large date party which they (3) left unregistered in order to throw investigators off the trail two years later.

        If this is false, it is easily proven false. If the fraternity did have a date party that night, there are 100 guests (probably all women) who can confirm that they were there at that party that night. Someone who was there simply needs to come forward and say they were at a party at that fraternity that night. There are probably emails with invitations and planning information.

        In short, it seems like a strange defense to use if it is false. That would require one hundred people in on the conspiracy (other “non-raping” fraternity brothers and guests). Maybe it is false. But that will be proven one way or another pretty quickly.

        The big point is this (and it was made at the top). Just because THIS PARTICULAR fraternity did not rape Jackie, certainly does not mean she was not raped.

        1. All that has to happen is for another person to simply come forward and say that a party happened. Because their information won’t be denied by the fraternity (shielded by a colluding university); They won’t be doubted by the media; they won’t be publicly humiliated by the people who first publish their report; they won’t be excoriated as a liar up to the level of Congress. They should just come forward. It’s THAT SIMPLE.

          All that I have learned in this interchange, John, is that if you went to a university with a large Greek system, you paid no attention to how that system works. I went to a university where one of the frats was brought up on federal racketeering charges because their harassment of a neighbor rose to the level of a criminal conspiracy under RICO.

          You also appear to have no idea how victim-blaming in rape cases extends to witnesses.

          Simply coming forward isn’t simple.

        2. That would require one hundred people in on the conspiracy (other “non-raping” fraternity brothers and guests).

          Rapists generally don’t have a hard time seeking cooperation from peers, so not even that number would surprise me.

        3. Or maybe: 1) a small subgroup of frat members decided that the upcoming Friday night (or whenever) would be a good night to have a drinks and pizza session with their girlfriends just because why not (and because that’s what happens in student housing all the time all over the world, official rules be damned); and 2) the word got around that well-there’s-a-party-at-so-and-so’s as it does in any youthful community where there’s probably nothing much else happening that particular Friday night*; and 3) a bunch of other people within and without that fraternity house decided that they would also rock up with booze and pizza and have some fun; and 4) some of those who turned up happened to be opportunistic sexual predators who saw their chance to get away with the sort of plausibly deniable assault (isolating a woman in a distant bedroom in a noisy house) that they’ve most probably gotten away with both before and since.

          * in my final year of high school in a small rural town, some girlfriends and I decided to have a girls’ night at my place where we all cooked different sorts of pies to bring and we were going to watch some videos and have a laugh. That little party ended up as well over a hundred people inside and outside my parents’ house who’d brought booze** and pizza to have somewhere different to stand around in our front and back yards gasbagging, because there just happened to be nothing else on in town that night that came close to being a party. Our house was tiny and my parents were there, so there wasn’t a place to isolate anybody inside the house, as it happened, so I’m fairly confident nobody got raped at that particular impromptu big party. But I could easily see it happening at other impromptu parties in large houses where no official chaperones or safety rules have been agreed in advance.

          ** this being Australia, most of us high school girls were already over 18 and thus of legal drinking age (and this being a country town in the early 80s, nearly everybody winked at anybody over 16 drinking booze anyway)

    3. @John
      “The Duke lacrosse guys ended up producing a taxi cab driver who drove them around town, a photo from an ATM withdrawal, and cell tower data that showed that they were somewhere else at the time of the alleged attack.”

      Are you seriously implying a conspiracy theory exists that the defense team of the Duke Lacrosse players rigged defense evidence?

      1. TomSims, I read John as doing the exact opposite of a conspiracy theory here by pointing out that the Duke Lacrosse team were able to provide positive/documented alibi evidence, compared to this UVA case where the fraternity has simply asserted that because no party was registered then no party could have happened.

  10. Should we really be speculating at all about what happened that night? After all, ‘Jackie’ wanted the story pulled. I understand arguing against MRA’s using the retraction to bolster their opinion of rape victims as liars, but I can’t help feel the speculation aspect is a bit disrespectful to ‘Jackie’.

    1. Rolling Stone and certain other members of the media have re-set the story’s focus: from decrying rape coverups to questioning whether Jackie was 100% truthful. RS just wants to cover up their journalistic incompetence, but rape-deniers are using this cast doubt on the crime of rape as a whole.

  11. I… don’t get how we can really know anything much, other than “Erdely was a horrific reporter who may well have made a lot of shit up.”

    There isn’t a ton of evidence to believe Jackie was lying. After all, we we don’t know what she actually told Rolling Stone, given that the reporter may have just made a lot of shit up.

    OTOH, there in’t a ton of evidence to believe that the Rolling Stone report (as distinguished from what Jackie said) was true, and the evidence which is coming out appears to suggest that the Rolling Stone report is very different from reality.

    So all the conclusions are conditional: to the degree that Jackie’s actual story matched the Rolling Stone report, many important aspects do not currently seem to be true. That’s hard to pick apart because we have no idea what she said.

    To the degree that her actual story did NOT match the Rolling Stone report, we also have almost no idea whether or not it’s true, since we have very little evidence one way or another.

    So our conclusions for this part are driven mostly by our belief of accuracy of reporting, not by facts.

    One thing I don’t get, though, is how folks can reach the conclusion that IF Jackie was lying (which we DO NOT know!!) it was… irrelevant. Why would it be irrelevant? That doesn’t make sense.

    1. One thing I don’t get, though, is how folks can reach the conclusion that IF Jackie was lying (which we DO NOT know!!) it was… irrelevant. Why would it be irrelevant? That doesn’t make sense.

      I don’t think anyone said it was irrelevant. I said that being caught in individual lies doesn’t mean one’s whole story was fabricated. There are plenty of precedents for this. In any case, it’s relevant that a witness lied, but it’s also relevant why they lied. So we don’t know if Jackie lied and we don’t know if she had a perfectly good reason for lying to the Rolling Stone reporter (which, of course, is not the same as lying in court.)

      Any sort of inaccuracies are relevant to Rolling Stone’s reportages, not what happened to Jackie that night.

      1. There seem to be several “sets” (in the mathematical sense) of facts in play:

        1. What actually happened to Jackie that night (something did happen, everyone seems to agree)
        2. What Jackie told her friends happened that night at the picnic tables.
        3. What Jackie told her supporters in the years following the attack.
        4. What Jackie told Rolling Stone.
        5. What Rolling Stone says Jackie told Rolling Stone. (I would be shocked if there was a huge difference between 4-5. Rolling Stone’s fact checkers are apparently bad at their jobs, but most reporters use tape and no fact checkers can be THAT bad, right?)

        In an ideal world, these would all line up, but that NEVER happens. From a justice perspective, however, it is critical that the big details are at least similar, especially on items 1-4.

        The fundamental criminal justice question is, who raped her, and how can we get them thrown in jail? We have to be able to rely on Jackie for that. That is not some irrelevant “detail” (like whether there were 5 or 7 men, or whether she was “forced to perform oral sex” or was “gang raped”). But because we lack physical evidence, we need Jackie to point to the right people, so we can throw them in jail so they don’t do it again. So, if she named the wrong fraternity, or if she made up a boyfriend, or named the wrong guy, that matters. That does not mean she is “lying” or wrong about anything else. But we need her to right about the identity of her attackers in order to hold them accountable.

        1. I would be shocked if there was a huge difference between 4-5. Rolling Stone’s fact checkers are apparently bad at their jobs, but most reporters use tape and no fact checkers can be THAT bad, right?

          Actually, there is some strong suggestion that the Rolling Stone reporter literally made shit up. Which was part of throwing Jackie under the bus.

          And as the reporter is largely refusing to talk to people, I see no reason to give her the benefit of the doubt regarding any consistencies 4-5.

        2. If the reporter made stuff up about what Jackie told her, Jackie should sue the hell out of her for libel/defamation and intentional infliction of emotional distress. That is inexcusable.

        3. I’m not sure if you can libel an anonymous figure, and suspect you cannot, though that isn’t my specialty. I also assume that a lawsuit would expose Jackie to publicity and cross examination that she does not want. And finally, the fact that the reporter lied doesn’t mean that Jackie told the truth. Two wrongs don’t make a right: if Jackie lied to the reporter then that would make the award of damages very unlikely, I suspect.

          For all of those reasons, I doubt that a lawsuit is coming down. At least not from those people. (If anyone were to be suing for libel it would probably be the frat or the people who were construed as horrific in the article.)

  12. I said that being caught in individual lies doesn’t mean one’s whole story was fabricated.

    …no, of course not. But that’s almost never true, right? The whole story is almost never fabricated, especially in rape.

    I mean, if you look at a typical rape dispute, most of the evidence is usually agreed on (parties, location, approximate degree of sexual contact) but usually someone is lying about a single-but-crucial detail without much external evidence. Most of the time, someone is lying about “consent,” so the question for the jury is usually “who is lying.” It’s very rare for someone on either side to completely fabricate things, because it’s so easy to disprove as it gets farther from the truth. That’s why you don’t get many “I never saw the accuser before in my life” defenses from people when they’re completely false; it can be disproven with a single DNA swab.

    That’s why cross examination matters. Because the more that you have evidence of inaccuracies, and the less that those inaccuracies can be explained, the more that you should generally approach all other claims of that person with suspicion.

    I’ve seen people say, in essence, “even if Jackie had lied about a ton of really important stuff, we have no basis to assume that she’d lie about the fact of the underlying rape or trauma.” And, well, that isn’t necessarily true. In fact the opposite is true, at least in my experience: the more that someone demonstrates a propensity to actively lie (as opposed to make a mistake) the less reliable they are in general.

    (That said, BTW, when I say “lie” I don’t mean “make reasonably normal mistakes of memory.” 6, 7, 8, 5 people; phi psi or alpha gamma; 9PM or 11PM: that is not what I mean. People make normal mistakes all the time, especially after trauma. Those mistakes matter, of course: if someone is shown to be wrong about the # of people or the name of the frat, then perhaps you may consider their accuracy w/r/t the specificity of “precisely what time did the party start” or other specific details. But it doesn’t make them a “liar,” at all. )

  13. I’ve seen people say, in essence, “even if Jackie had lied about a ton of really important stuff, we have no basis to assume that she’d lie about the fact of the underlying rape or trauma.” And, well, that isn’t necessarily true. In fact the opposite is true, at least in my experience: the more that someone demonstrates a propensity to actively lie (as opposed to make a mistake) the less reliable they are in general.

    I think i’m disagreeing with that. I’m saying that a person may lie about some things and be totally truthful about other things. For example:

    A man is attacked, robbed and brutally beaten at a coffeeshop, which he just happened to walk into after he had visited his mistress or his homosexual lover or his heroin dealer or whoever. When interviewed by the police he tells them that he stopped in the coffeeshop as he was walking home from the public library.

    How does that lie affect his credibility?

    1. Steve,

      I think the difference between the lie in your coffeeshop attack and Jackie’s (possible) lie is that why he went to the coffee shop is, in legal terms, a “collateral matter.” It has no probative value as to what happened in the coffeeshop.

      Jackie’s possible lies thus far strike into the heart of the matter (both the attack and the aftermath). There are serious questions regarding:

      1. Who attacked Jackie? What was his name?
      2. Was he a member of a fraternity?
      3. Which fraternity?
      4. Where did Jackie meet him (was he a catfish or did he work at pool)?
      5. Who was texting Jackie’s friends pretending to be the attacker?
      6. Did her friends tell her to avoid the police?
      7. Where did the attack take place? (If your victim got the coffeeshop wrong, that would be a problem).

      Those are not “collateral matters.” The only way the people who attacked her can be held accountable is if Jackie is credible on these few, most important matters.

      1. 1. Who attacked Jackie? What was his name?
        2. Was he a member of a fraternity?
        3. Which fraternity?
        4. Where did Jackie meet him (was he a catfish or did he work at pool)?
        5. Who was texting Jackie’s friends pretending to be the attacker?
        6. Did her friends tell her to avoid the police?
        7. Where did the attack take place? (If your victim got the coffeeshop wrong, that would be a problem).

        1. Fred
        2. Yes
        3. Loyal Order of Water Buffaloes Lodge No. 26
        4. Don’t be silly, they don’t allow catfish in pools.
        5. You were
        6. Maybe
        7. Somewhere in the Milky Way Galaxy

  14. [Moderator note: this post is about the recent UVA allegations. If you didn't realise that the claim you just made relates to different allegations from elsewhere and many years ago, then do some more reading. Conflation of different incidents is non-productive and potentially derailing, and will not be published. ~tt]

Comments are currently closed.