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Why Do I Bother?

For once, just for once, I wanted to try to have a discussion about a woman getting raped and murdered that DIDN’T devolve into an extended rehash of the same goddamn argument we always seem to have whenever a rape and/or murder of a woman is discussed: Namely, we start out on topic, then someone has to come in and blame the victim (she was drunk! doesn’t she know there were consequences! she was dressed like a hoochie! she was a stripper! she must be lying! what was she doing alone at night? what was she doing trusting a man?) and we’re off to the races.

And inevitably, in all the talk about what the victim did or didn’t do and whether the natural consequence of having a few too many and making some poor parking decisions is to be abducted, raped, murdered and your body left in a dumpster, someone disappears.

And that person is the rapist/murderer.

Why does this man always disappear in these discussions? It’s as if he had no role at all. Even those of us who are feminists and fight victim-blaming tend to, as hexy pointed out, ignore the perp.

What need do we have to make him disappear? Do we not want to think about the fact that regardless of what we do or don’t do, we can’t always know who will harm us or who poses a danger to us? Do we need to believe that by analyzing what the victim did or didn’t do, or did or didn’t have every right to do, we’ll somehow be insulated from what befell her?

Sometimes I wonder why I bother writing about any of these crimes. The same discussion, always heated, always follows. And we never advance the ball.


99 thoughts on Why Do I Bother?

  1. Sometimes I wonder why I bother writing about any of these crimes. The same discussion, always heated, always follows. And we never advance the ball.

    Get rid of anyone who is trying to pull the victim blaming card so that others can actually discuss the issues in the post? :\

    But that would suck to do, I imagine.

  2. We need to make him disappear to keep up the fiction that rapists are scary brown bogeymen who hide in dark alleys waiting to sate their uncontrollable lust for innocent white girls. They’re monsters, born bad, insane, hideous beasts. There’s nothing we can do to control them, so women must take responsibility for protecting ourselves.

    If we keep up this fiction we can continue to pretend that men we know and trust can’t be rapists, too. We can continue to pretend that violent porn is “just a fantasy” and there’s no such thing as a “rape culture”.

    Blaming women involves nothing more than decrying the rise in slutdom, which we’ve been doing for hundreds of years. Blaming men involves facing harsh truths about our culture, way of life, our sons and husbands and fathers. Blaming women is always easier.

  3. Sometimes I wonder why I bother writing about any of these crimes.

    Because it’s better than not talking about them at all. Even if the same old damn arguments come up time after time, raising awareness is always a worthy cause.

    I think part of the problem is that people are concerned about steering the conversation away from the victim. Often, people (especially men) shift any sort of feminist/women-oriented discussion towards men. It’s often as if women can’t have their own discourse without it being defined by and in relation to men. If we start talking about the rapist, and maybe even bring some humanity and understanding to the perpetrator, people will cry foul and say we’re diverting attention from the victim. It’s a real balancing act.

    And I think that thing I mentioned about bringing humanity and understanding to the perpetrator is important. I’m not suggesting we ought to sympathize, but we can’t let this myth survive that rapists are “scary brown bogeymen,” as Denise put it. Rapists are, very often, the guy-next-door that no one would ever suspect. Rapists are very often the romantic partners (even husbands) of the victims. A vast percentage of rapes are committed by someone close to the victim.

    We have to understand the psychology – the pathology – behind these men and figure out just where society is going wrong. Blaming some nebulous patriarchy doesn’t get us anywhere. Neither does reducing rape to the strict “power/dominance” issue that I so often see it reduced to. To say it has nothing to do with sex just doesn’t make sense, as there are plenty of ways to exert power or violent force without sexual abuse. Answering the hard questions about rape and figuring out a way of confronting the problem is something we really need to tackle head on. And it needs to be a discussion that men are actively participating in. As a man, I feel a certain responsibility to stop other men from these sorts of crimes, and I think that level of social responsibility needs to be raised across the board.

  4. Answering the hard questions about rape and figuring out a way of confronting the problem is something we really need to tackle head on. And it needs to be a discussion that men are actively participating in. As a man, I feel a certain responsibility to stop other men from these sorts of crimes, and I think that level of social responsibility needs to be raised across the board.

    Bryan, you seem to mean well and all that, but don’t you think that if women could stop rape by exerting their social responsibility or whatever, that they would already have done so?

    Discuss it with other men, fine, that’s great. But it’s not women’s responsibility to figure out why men rape us and talk them into not doing it anymore. That’s just like how white people expect black people or members of other racial minorities to give impromptu lessons in How Not To Be Racist 101 on demand. It’s bullshit.

    It’s men who are doing the raping, so it’s men who have the problem, and I don’t see why I or other women should have to “answer hard questions” about rape. We’ve been “figuring out ways of confronting the problem” since day 1 because we’re the ones who get hurt.

  5. My two pence? We can’t deal with the tough questions that inevitably arise when these horrific incidents are reported in the press. Like Denise said, dealing with the rapist/killer and his idenitity directly might very well shatter our false sense of security in regards to the nature of sexual violence. We might actually have to admit to ourselves that the victims are not stupid little hoochies who ended up that way due to poor decision-making.

    We don’t want to admit to ourselves that rape and other forms of sexual violence and abuse practically exist on our doorsteps.

  6. Social responsibility? Sure, that can be a part of the answer to rape, but ONLY a part. People need to stop accepting rape, yes. Men need to stop feeling like it’s okay to rape, yes.

    However, as with most any crime, there need to be consequences in place. It’s not purely a matter of social conscience and responsibility, not by a long shot. Why do men rape? Because they’re going to get away with it. If bank robberies went unpunished at a tenth the rate that rapes do, the FDIC would be broke in a month.

  7. Bryan: yes, I took exception because I thought “across the board” meant you were calling for greater social responsibility from men and women both. If that’s not what you meant, ok then.

  8. human,

    In a sense, women do need greater social responsibility… namely, they need to report their own rapes and press charges. However, for women to be reasonably expected to do that, they need to first be taken seriously by cops, judges, and juries.

  9. …namely, they need to report their own rapes and press charges. However, for women to be reasonably expected to do that, they need to first be taken seriously by cops, judges, and juries.

    Another big part of the reason rapes go unreported is because women fear retribution from the perpetrator. It’s a big cycle of fear and oppression. Women get raped –> women become afraid of reporting the crime –> men get away with it –> men are free to rape more women –> cycle continues…

  10. Okay, kids, let’s not start down the road of what women need to do again.

    We’re letting the rapist/murderer disappear.

  11. Yes, Bryan, definitely. However, if women were taken seriously by the police when reporting a rape, they would presumably take steps to protect them until the alleged rapist was in custody. Clearly, taking women seriously needs to be the first step to ending the cycle.

    Got any ideas on getting Redneck Johnny-with-a-badge to think “Oh my god, this is terrible and serious!” when a rape is reported, rather than “Huh, another slut done changed ‘er mind.” ?

  12. zuzu,

    I understand it’s your blog and your descretion and all that, but I think you’re stomping all over a productive discussion right now. I’m trying to talk about how to make sure there are consequences for rapists. That necessarily involves talking about the fact that women aren’t taking seriously when reporting rapes. I don’t understand how we’re supposed to get anywhere with the issue of rapists without at least mentioning rape victims. If we restrict ourselves so, it seems like all we can say is “Boy, rapists sure are bastards!”, and then move on to a cat-picture thread.

  13. Got any ideas on getting Redneck Johnny-with-a-badge to think “Oh my god, this is terrible and serious!” when a rape is reported, rather than “Huh, another slut done changed ‘er mind.” ?

    Raise your sons not to think that way. Don’t let your friends say that kind of thing unchallenged.

  14. Thomas,

    The upbringing point would be a good one if anti-feminists weren’t outbreeding feminists to an almost ridiculous degree. The second half of what you said is really important, though. I think we all need to step up our public activity a notch. Just keeping your friends in line isn’t good enough. I don’t know about you, but I have precious few non-feminist friends in my social circle. (and even those are stubborn academics who don’t respond to my peer-pressure!)

  15. I understand it’s your blog and your descretion and all that, but I think you’re stomping all over a productive discussion right now. I’m trying to talk about how to make sure there are consequences for rapists. That necessarily involves talking about the fact that women aren’t taking seriously when reporting rapes. I don’t understand how we’re supposed to get anywhere with the issue of rapists without at least mentioning rape victims. If we restrict ourselves so, it seems like all we can say is “Boy, rapists sure are bastards!”, and then move on to a cat-picture thread.

    Mentioning rape victims is one thing. However, you’re trying to put the responsibility for stopping rape on their shoulders by saying things like this:

    In a sense, women do need greater social responsibility… namely, they need to report their own rapes and press charges.

    Women do not need greater social responsibility wrt rape. We’re already blamed for it when it happens. What we need is for men to take responsibility for it, and we need to be absolutely sure that we keep the focus where it belongs, on the people who are doing the raping.

    Your point is not the same as Bryan’s — he’s saying that men rape because they get away with it, and that sets up a cycle where women don’t report rape because they aren’t taken seriously. Your point is that women need to take on social responsibility and report rape more often, and yeah, maybe men could do something about it, but I’m going to pretend that it’s just the redneck officers who don’t believe women who’ve been raped rather than the entire frickin’ culture.

    So don’t tell me I’m trying to stomp on a “productive” discussion when you’re trying to head it down a road of victim-blaming.

  16. Dennis: How about, instead of telling women to report their rapes, talking about how to reform the justice sytem so that those that do report are taken seriously? What about sentences for rape – are they a deterrant to rapists, or do they make it even harder for survivors? How about mentioning conviction rates rather than rates of reporting?

  17. mazaru said:

    Dennis: How about, instead of telling women to report their rapes, talking about how to reform the justice sytem so that those that do report are taken seriously? What about sentences for rape – are they a deterrant to rapists, or do they make it even harder for survivors? How about mentioning conviction rates rather than rates of reporting?

    zuzu said:

    Your point is not the same as Bryan’s — he’s saying that men rape because they get away with it, and that sets up a cycle where women don’t report rape because they aren’t taken seriously.

    Dennis said:

    However, for women to be reasonably expected to do that, they need to first be taken seriously by cops, judges, and juries.

    Clearly, taking women seriously needs to be the first step to ending the cycle.

    Why am I being crucified, here?

  18. You’re not being crucified. Get off the cross already.

    Look, you’re attempting to shift the responsibility for stopping rape onto women by saying that they need to take more social responsibility. That right there is letting the rapist disappear.

    You pretend that there’s nothing to talk about re rapists other than “boy, aren’t they bastards” and trivialize the issue by stating that there’s nothing more to say than that, and time for more cat pictures. Somehow, a post can generate 120 comments debating what a raped and murdered woman did wrong to bring this on herself without mentioning the guy who did it much, and you think that a productive discussion about the culpability of rapists themselves isn’t possible.

    Then when you do mention men in relation to stopping rape, you keep yourself very distant from the issue: you first pretend that it’s a problem of “Redneck Johnny-with-a-badge” and anti-feminist men, and you shrug your shoulders because, gosh, you don’t have any ideas what you can do. And when someone gives you one, you shrug that off, too.

  19. zuzu, I’d get off the cross if you’d let me down. Seriously, I understand that and why you’re so anxious to stomp on somebody today, but I think you’re overlooking most of what I’ve said in order to take a little bit out of context.

    I most certainly did NOT say that there was nothing more to say than “boy, aren’t they bastards.” I said that if you restrict the conversation to only mentioning rapists, that’s about as far as you’re going to get.

    And now the rapists have really disappeared, because you’ve discovered it’s easier to cannibalize one of your own than to focus on having a reasonable discussion… so, I suppose I’ll take my leave.

  20. This:

    all we can say is “Boy, rapists sure are bastards!”, and then move on to a cat-picture thread

    is a very good way of undermining this:

    [women] need to first be taken seriously

    That’s not all we can say. But I have plenty of cat pictures, if you’d prefer.

  21. Dammit, can’t stay away…

    What I actually said, mazaru :

    If we restrict ourselves so, it seems like all we can say is “Boy, rapists sure are bastards!”

    (emphasis added.)

  22. One issue I’d like to bring up is this whole “men are from blah, women are from blah” crap. Our boys are being taught at an early age that women are inscrutable, that they can’t relate to them, that they can’t communicate. Add to that the idea that a woman who is in any way shape or form sexually desirable = slut, and you have a culture that buttresses rape and obscures the real issues surrounding it.

    I want my little brother to have female friends. I want him to know that women are first and foremost human beings, not alien entities. I want him to view sex as a mutually pleasurable experience, not a conquest that naturally denigrates the woman and lionizes the man. I want him to know the difference between normal sexual desire, and the desire to control and humiliate, which is what propels rapists on their merry way toward the latest victim.

    I believe that if he does not mystify women, he will be less likely to stand by idly when his buddies trash-talk women, or when the latest wave of apologia descends following a scandal. It is this sort of adverse environment that allows rape to go un-checked. Dehumanize the woman and you have a culture wherein most rapes go unpunished.

  23. If it were up to me, I think I might consider asking anyone making any argument of the form, “Women need to . . . .” to leave the discussion. No banning, just a “Please go now, thanks.” Because that zuzu could put up a post expressing frustration that these women-need-to lectures always become the focus of rape posts, and then have someone make just that argument (hello, Dennis) in the comments to the very post she wrote asking people to please quit doing that, just blows my mind.

    One quibble, Bryan:

    Blaming some nebulous patriarchy doesn’t get us anywhere. Neither does reducing rape to the strict “power/dominance” issue that I so often see it reduced to. To say it has nothing to do with sex just doesn’t make sense, as there are plenty of ways to exert power or violent force without sexual abuse.

    See that “nebulous patriarchy” you don’t want us to blame? First, it isn’t nebulous to those who don’t have the privilege of ignoring it.

    Second, that nebulous patriarchy is also that system of social order that fetishizes dominance and portrays sex as dirty, debasing, humiliating–and the ultimate way to keep a bitch in line. There are plenty of ways to exert power without sex, yes, but gosh, they’re just not as satisfying without a dude getting his rocks off at the end.

  24. That’s a lot of posts with no analysis of the perp. Lets think about what it would be useful to know about him in order to focus on why he did this. Previous record of sexual assault? History of childhood sexual abuse? Is this a crime with an expecially high rate of recidivism? How are sexual predators being treated while incarcerated? Has this person received ‘permission to rape’ though a lot of contact with violent porn/the actions of his social peer group? This is the kind of analysis that tends to be missing from these articles. It’s almost like, well sure brown men want white girls, duh. No explanation required. I mean if it dawned on people that a very high percentage of rapists are also victims of childhood sexual abuse, they might get behind child abuse PREVENTION programs (not just the ones that deal with the aftermath). Instead the tell women not to have too many beers. Somehow, I don’t think this will address the probelm.

  25. Oh, and by this,

    Add to that the idea that a woman who is in any way shape or form sexually desirable = slut

    What I mean to say is that when it comes down to it, even an 80-year old grandma can be viewed as a “slut.” After all, she’s female. Virtually anything about a woman’s character and behaviour can be turned against her in a society that believes women to be sub-human, whether consciously or unconsciously.

  26. In my life, I have known two men who were admitted rapists.

    The first one was a man I’d known for years–gone to kindergarten with even, and was someone I considered a good friend. The September after we graduated from high school, he showed up at my work and offered to give me a ride home. He said he needed to talk. He confessed that he’d raped a mutual friend of ours when she was passed out drunk. I didn’t know why he told me or what he expected me to say. If the fact that he told me gave me a certain responsibility, I squandered it or failed to identify it. I said something about how he needed to own up to what he’d done, but I didn’t know how he possibly could.

    The 2nd rapist that I know is my boyfriend’s grandfather. He was jailed for a number of years for molesting my boyfriend’s brother. I see this man at Christmas dinner and at weddings. I’ve even hugged him goodbye at the end of one or two evenings, because I don’t know what else to do when I’m faced with his outstreched arms and so many pairs of watching eyes.

    Those are the two rapists that I know. An old man and a good friend with whom I’d built forts as a kid and had attended summer camp with. Having been raped myself and having these two examples, I know that rapists aren’t hiding in the shadows or sitting in a dingy apartment, sharpening their machetes. It’s frightening because when I describe rapists as I know them, I feel like I’m painting a sympathetic portrait of them, and that’s not what I intend to do.

    How are we supposed to interact with rapists? How should we punish, or attempt to reform them?

  27. And inevitably, in all the talk about what the victim did or didn’t do and whether the natural consequence of having a few too many and making some poor parking decisions is to be abducted, raped, murdered and your body left in a dumpster, someone disappears.

    And that person is the rapist/murderer.

    If i was cynical i would respond that some people might think that he didn’t do anything wrong if he gets away with it.
    I think the first step to solve the problem is to accept that it was actually the criminal who did something wrong and not the victim cause people like rebecca don’t seem to get that.

    Rape has to be considered a serious crime by the majority, not only (but, of course, also by) cops and judges. And blaming it on the rednecks is quite stupid (or singling them out) – mister “blame-it-on-the-victim” could also be the nice, charming and well-educated guy from next door (same likelihood).
    And there should also be emphasis on the victim – but not by blaming her but trying to help her.
    If you make sure that a lot of rapists are convicted the outcome will be a great success. You should also focus on the rapist’s mind but i think the former is more promising.

  28. Ilyka:

    See that “nebulous patriarchy” you don’t want us to blame? First, it isn’t nebulous to those who don’t have the privilege of ignoring it.

    Nebulous: “Lacking definite form or limits.”

    I think that describes patriarchy theory in my understanding. I’m not saying there isn’t a definite imposed structure of gender subordination, but you can’t blame a theoretical structure of “patriarchy” for the culture of rape. But I might just be approaching the idea of patriarchy through a different ideology than you, which would lead to such a difference of opinion.

    Second, that nebulous patriarchy is also that system of social order that fetishizes dominance and portrays sex as dirty, debasing, humiliating–and the ultimate way to keep a bitch in line.

    I agree, but I don’t think there is one totalizing characteristic to all rapists. I think it’s more personal than a “system of social order” and each man makes his decision based on a different set of circumstances, but I would argue that said system is responsible for keeping each individual rapist safe from harm. On a hivemind kinda level, I’d say you’re right, but I also don’t think it helps much to just look at each individual case as some unified expression of patriarchal dominance. But again, different theories – different applications.

    There are plenty of ways to exert power without sex, yes, but gosh, they’re just not as satisfying without a dude getting his rocks off at the end.

    That was part of the point I was trying to make; rape does not only equal power, it equals power and sex, although often those two are so counfounded and the difference is obscured.

    My main problem with blaming this sort of thing on patriarch is that it’s just a different – and more subtle – way of shifting the discussion away from the rapist. It’s not his fault, it’s the patriarchy! The perp has to own his actions and take some personal responsibility for what he’s done. There is most definitely a systemic problem, but the system can’t be solely blamed. I’ve never had the desire to rape anyone, so obviously the patriarchy isn’t making us all toe the party line, is it? That’s why we’ve gotta blame the perp and not the patriarchy – it’s ultimately an individual choice. We can’t blame society for all of our ills. For my part, I’ll own the fact that a lot of men rape women and a lot of other men – implicitly or otherwise – help allow such a culture to exist, and I’ll do my best to fight against that within my sphere of influence.

  29. We can blame the patriarchy for supporting the perp. The culture of rape means that even men who don’t rape are benefiting from the actions of rapists, which restrict the lives of all women, not just women who are raped. Men enjoy greater freedom relative to women, which is something they have not earned, and worse, they have this greater freedom because the culture supports other men who prey on women.

  30. Heck, I’m a molestation survivor, and I see the young man who molested me on a regular basis. I even bought his wife a gift when she gave birth to their son

    His mother knows about what happened, and she made him admit what he did all those years ago and go into therapy. Meanwhile, what can I do today? I love him. He’s family. He was abused horribly by his stepfather before he abused me, and looking back on it I see the great big terrible cycle that swallowed both of us. It doesn’t excuse what he did to me, but it helps me understand why. It has helped me forgive.

    I remember when I found out that my good friend in college was abused by her brother, whom she also loves, and we sat together and cried for hours.

    Then again, I think molestation within family circles can be a trickier subject. My feelings on the neighbourhood boy who tried to rape me at gunpoint when I was nine are quite different. He too wasn’t a monster sharpening his machete, however. I thought I knew him very well before that day.

  31. I heard on the radio this morning (in Australia) about a book due out soon called ‘Girls Like You’. It’s an account of the experience in the legal system here of a girl who was gang-raped when she was thirteen by a group of young men, some of whom had been charged with other violent attacks and rapes – information which was not permmitted an airing in court in the girl’s case. The case went on for 3-4 years. The writer of the book was saying that he’ll never forget the sight of this lone girl, with eight lawyers (one per accused) lined up against her, as she was forced to answer over 2,000 questions (the writer gave an exact number but I forget what it was) about herself, *her* behaviour and so on and so on and so on. The purpose of the book is to advocate for desperately needed changes in the legal system when dealing with rape cases because rape victims have so little confidence in it, are so afraid of it even, that most rapes still go unreported. (The writers estimate was around 85%, if I remember correctly.)

    When the subject of a specific rape comes up on blogs etc, the conversation seems to go pretty much the same way the legal system does. What is apparently being sought is a ‘rapee’ – a girl or a woman who can be trusted to be a credible witness to events she experienced first hand – rather than a rapist. What is it that prevents the accused’s prior attitudes and actions towards women being assessed in the way a victims actions and sexual history always are? (Is she a prostitute? Does she have children with different fathers? More than one current male partner? Had she been drinking? Was she dressed ‘provocatively?’ Was she walking the streets alone at night? Had she stepped outside for a smoke?)

    In the case of gang rapes – obviously there is some kind of explicit male bonding going on – where the victim is being used as a kind of ‘currency’ between men (there was a conversation about this phenomenon – called ‘homosociality’ – over at The Reclusive Leftist a while ago, after Hugo posted a definition of it on his blog.) The accused in these cases should be being asked to re-enact conversation between them leading up to the rape, witnesses to conversations between them should be being called, witnesses to prior evidences of abusive or violent attitudes towards women etc, etc.

    In another (and current) case in Australia, a 42 year old mother, Diane Brimble, died on a cabin floor of a P&O cruise ship, of an overdose of the drug ‘fantasy’, which had been slipped into her drink at a ships bar. She was described as a conservative woman, who was taking her daughter on a dream trip. She lost her inhibitions as a result of the drug – with a dose so heavy it killed her – and was photographed by one of her predators, performing oral sex on another. There are eight ‘persons of interest’ in this case as well. The difference is, the case is being heard by the New South Wales Deputy Coroner, Jacqueline Milledge, and she is making sure that much more information is being published than is normal in these cases – with particular attention to brutally mysogynistic remarks made about the victim, even after her death, by the accused men. Here’s a quote from The Sunday Times (Western Australia).

    ‘Ms Milledge has worked tirelessly, not just to find out what happened to Mrs Brimble, but to effectively clear her name. In doing so, she has pushed her coronial powers to the limit and released an almost unprecedented amount of detail to the public. In turn, this has led to more information, and witnesses being publicly unveiled.

    “We owe the dead the truth, we owe the living the truth”, Ms Milledge has said. “The best thing we can do for Mrs Brimble is to tell it how it is.”

    But she’s doing more than that. She is piling scorn and shame on the predatory pack of men who patrolled that boat – and, by extension, other men like them……An attempt by P&O’s lawyers to narrow the terms of the enquiry was …batted away. “Mrs Brimble did not die in a vacuum” was Ms Milledges response.’

    Exactly.
    In court *and* in conversation around sexual assault and rape we should be focusing our attention much more acutely on the perpetrators. I’m hoping Jacqueline Milledge is beginning a trend.

  32. I have a website saved on rapist typologies. It’s sort of helpful for ‘analysis’… I especially like this page, though, because it doesn’t sit there and try to imply that rapists have some sort of mental affliction. It just talks about their personality types and their motives (note: be careful, triggering content on webpage).

    http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect18.htm

    I go to a community college and I have spoken directly to men around my age (16-25) about what rape is and how to prevent it. The second I say, ‘it can be rape even if the woman doesn’t verbally say no,’ their privilege makes a full comeback and they got bitchy about it. When I say, ‘you should most likely ask a woman every time if she’d like to have sex,’ they totally shut down and REFUSE to listen anymore.

    The thing is, I AM willing to give them a step-by-step on how not to rape women (I actually wrote one up on my livejournal). I’m willing, most of the time, to do the research work for them. I know that I am not obliged to do this for them, but I want to. It’s just hard to figure out how to get through to them…

  33. We can blame the patriarchy for supporting the perp. The culture of rape means that even men who don’t rape are benefiting from the actions of rapists, which restrict the lives of all women, not just women who are raped.

    Don’t take this as a challenge. It’s a question: How is it a benefit to men that women are less free? I would think that it would be better for everyone (except racists and sexists) to have women be as free as men.

    Also, if men are benefitting, do you think that benefit is helping to continue the nasty culture? That is, do you think that non-sexist, non-rapist men support the culture specifically in order to keep that benefit of being more free than women?

  34. We can blame the patriarchy for supporting the perp. The culture of rape means that even men who don’t rape are benefiting from the actions of rapists, which restrict the lives of all women, not just women who are raped. Men enjoy greater freedom relative to women, which is something they have not earned, and worse, they have this greater freedom because the culture supports other men who prey on women.

    I agree with all of this, and it raises a question:

    Has the success of feminism in the last few decades reduced the incidence of rape?

    The disparity in power and freedom between men and women has narrowed in the last fifty years. Women have more money, more education, more independence than they used to. Rape laws are better than they were. Prosecutors and cops and judges are, on average, better. (More of them are women, and all of them are far better trained.) Rape is taken far more seriously in the media than it used to be.

    And according to the Department of Justice, the number of women (and men and children) who report having been raped has fallen dramatically in recent decades.

    Is there a correlation? Are feminism’s gains making rape less common?

  35. How is it a benefit to men that women are less free?

    Because they get to keep their privilege. Privilege is nice and keeps you warm at night.

    Yes, in the end, everyone would more benefit from men, women, and all races being equal. However, in the here and now, men are benefitting from privilege.

  36. Weeklyrob, I’ll answer these questions because I think they’re interesting, although I’m aware they were directed at Zuzu (who may have entirely different responses):

    How is it a benefit to men that women are less free?

    Men get to run the show. If women have equal freedoms as men, then men can’t enjoy a level of social superiority for women. There are benefits that men reap from oppressing women, including sexual ones, monetary ones, etc. Every time a guy gets a job over an equally-qualified woman (or is simply paid more than the woman across the hall) he’s benefitting from male preference, and from the “boy’s club” mentality that exists among the ruling class (and throughout many other levels of society too, with varying degrees of power).

    That is, do you think that non-sexist, non-rapist men support the culture specifically in order to keep that benefit of being more free than women?

    I wouldn’t argue that every man supports the culture. I do think there are a lot, however, that do. People can be sexist without being conscious of the fact or even displaying what a lot of people would consider overt sexism. When men accuse women of making false rape accusations, for instance, they’re breeding a culture that implicitly supports rapists and denies the testimony of women. Sure, there are women who make false rape accusations, but there are a lot more rapes, and even more that go unreported.

    Hope this helped a bit.

  37. Bryan: Thanks. I wasn’t really asking about how men benefit from social dominence, or from sexism. I was asking specifically about how a man benefits from women having less freedom than men do because of a rape culture. This is a specific kind of freedom.

    Maybe you’re saying that it’s all related and feeds into itself. Ok.

    My question about supporting the culture was asking the prevailing opinion on whether men supporting it are doing so, consciously, in order to keep the benefit of more freedom. If so, then why are women doing it? I’d guess that the social programming is burnt into girls and boys and needs to stop, rather than the idea that men are doing it in order to keep their privilege. But I’m really asking, not telling.

    Lorelei: Privilege is hard to turn down in some cases, and hard to fight against when you’re a person getting it. My trouble here is that destroying the rape-culture doesn’t give me less money, or a worse job, or anything else that’s undesirable. At least, I don’t THINK it does, which is why I asked. Y’all have thought about this more than I have.

    I know it’s not your job to tell me, but it must be a bad sign that an educated, interested, raised by a hippie, ERA-activist mom, totally non-sexist, marched with Coretta King, guy like me could be so socially unaware.

  38. Rob, here are just a few ways that men benefit from their greater freedom relative to women:

    They can go out at night alone and nobody hassles them about it. They don’t have to devote large plots of mental real estate to thinking about what to do if they’re attacked, is that guy following me, what if he put something in my drink, what will happen if I sit in the bar by myself like the guys do, oh god he’s holding the door for me what does he want, etc.

    They don’t have to worry that their clothing choices will be analyzed and held against them if they’re, say, mugged.

    This carries over into employment as well. A woman in a non-traditional job has to run the gantlet for invading a boy’s club, and one of the threats used against her is sexual harassment or rape. A guy can walk into such a job with no such worry. The worry that women have about entering male-only spaces helps keep the number of women in some of the more high-paying professions and trades low, therefore opening up opportunities for men — even men who don’t harass, threaten or rape women.

    There are dozens of other ways, but I’m trying to get some work done here.

  39. Weeklyrob, I disagree with your analysis regarding the impact of privilige on your life. When people are subjected to sexual violence, they are impaired throughout their lives in ways that are difficult to quantify. To over-simplify things, you were self-actualizing by marching with Coretta while they were in therapy trying to be able to sleep at night or not be afraid of men any more. You were in graduate school while they were trying to end their abusive relationship, which had been tolerated for too long due to low self worth from the sexual violence. You went into government service, where the victim’s assault record from one time she tried to defend herself in the abusive relationship and the guy got hurt. See where I am going with this? When you don’t have to deal with being a victim, you can do a lot of other things with your life. Your earning power goes up. You live in better housing. And then you get all the goodies that come along with that. Men who think of themselves as liberal are perhaps sometimes the last to examine their own motives, though of course we prefer you to John Ashcroft and Clarance Thomas.

  40. Zuzu: I see what you mean about the professions. Of course, if women don’t take the jobs (or are forced out of them), then there are more for men. Even a non-sexist, non-rapist man could benefit in that way, no matter how much he hated the idea.

    And there’s no denying that that sort of stuff happens. Totally answers my question. Thanks.

    [Incidentally, I don’t really understand the examples from your first paragraph. Everything you say is true, of course, but I don’t understand how a non-sexist non-rapist man *benefits* from a woman having to worry about those things. Her worrying about them doesn’t help me not worry about them.]

  41. He benefits because he doesn’t have to worry about this. As bmc90 points out, being able to live your life without second-guessing and worry and damage control frees you up to enjoy lots of other things.

    I mean, just take the example of a woman going out alone at night. She’ll be hassled by people she knows for going out alone. She’ll be the target of people who prey on women alone. At the very least, she’ll have to fend off opportunistic advances. And if anything happens to her, she’ll be blamed for being out alone.

    Whereas a man can go to a bar alone, get drunk and get rolled, and nobody tells him he shouldn’t have been out alone.

  42. He benefits because he doesn’t have to worry about this.

    Weeklyrob is wondering how a man benefits from the fact that women do have to worry.

    And I think the answer is less that women worrying about their safety grants direct benefits to men than that women worrying about their safety is an effect of a system that grants other benefits to men.

  43. The difference is that if we get rid of the rape culture, men may be forced out of jobs because equally (or more) qualified women will compete with them. So that’s a loss of benefit to those guys. And one worth cheering for.

    But when women can stop being afraid to walk the streets at night, men won’t lose their ability to do so. I won’t start worrying about how I dress just because women can stop worrying.

    Allowing women to stop being afraid is good for women and good for men, too, in lots of ways that I can think of. No one will lose anything, except the rapist scum and the sexist scum.

    When people stop asking what she was doing out so late on her own, men benefit from that.

  44. There was a Danish article published a year ago, that used population statistics to examine some possible factors for rapists born in the year 1966, and convicted for rape when they were in the age 15-27

    You can find it here (in English)
    http://www.sfi.dk/graphics/SFI/Forskning/Research/sCRI_Nygaard_paper.pdf

    The authors acklnowledge that there are rapists who are not conciccted, but they are not part of this research.

    The results were fairly predictable, in that, the same factors that increase the likelihood of violent crimes increase the likelihood of being convicted for rape.

    Factors such as, the mothers being unemployed for a longer period of time, Alcohol or substance abuse in the home, domestic violence, and periods of placement outside of the home alle increase both the likelihood of violence and rape convictions.

    This seems to support the notion that rape is a crime of violence, not of “passion”

    Mental affliction in the parents or in the rapists increase the chance of being convicted for rape, more than the chances violence for being convicted for, just like former attempts at suicide, and long periods of unemployment.

  45. But when women can stop being afraid to walk the streets at night, men won’t lose their ability to do so.

    If women don’t go certain places because they’re afraid, then men get to have those places to themselves. And they gain all sorts of coercive power over the women who do go to those places.

    Allowing women to stop being afraid is good for women and good for men, too, in lots of ways that I can think of. No one will lose anything, except the rapist scum and the sexist scum.

    And by “the sexist scum,” you mean “all the men who benefit from the fact that their wives or their daughters or their dates or their female colleagues or random women on the street are afraid of them.”

    That’s a larger portion of the male population than you’re assuming, I think.

  46. As to #45, men who are out alone preying on women will lose a benefit, and men who aren’t but who are able to intimidate women who are because the women are afraid they may be perps will lose that benefit as well. And men who don’t rape (if you believe what they say) but do get themselves in very compromising situations (doesn’t every white college guy in southern towns with big racial tensions have parties with black stippers to unwind?) loose the ability to just use the nuts and sluts defense of turning the victim into the one to blame instead of having to explain their henious judgment and behavior, and be shunned by those around them.

  47. And by “the sexist scum,” you mean “all the men who benefit from the fact that their wives or their daughters or their dates or their female colleagues or random women on the street are afraid of them.”

    And this also fits into what I was talking about earlier — the fact that feminism and women’s empowerment have changed American culture in all sorts of dramatic ways.

    Women are a lot less restricted in where they can safely go and what they can safely do than they were a couple of generations ago, and it’s a lot harder to shame women who’ve gone someplace or done something they “shouldn’t have.” That means that rapists have less freedom to act than they used to, and less coercive power over their potential victims.

    It also means, by the way, that men are less likely to form their ideas about women and sexuality in all-male environments than they used to be. I discussed some of the ways in which gender segregation breeds rape and sexual exploitation in this blog post a few months back.

  48. There’s an intangible benefit that men lose—the low standards they have to compete against. Nowadays, women get treated so shittily so often everywhere that any guy that makes the tiniest bit of effort is treated like he’s Jesus Christ himself, even if he really is just a guy who doesn’t rape or doesn’t hit. OF course, he doesn’t do any damned good, either, but at least he’s not actively bad. He doesn’t speak up against sexists, he doesn’t speak up against his coworkers, he doesn’t speak up at all, mostly, but he doesn’t do bad shit. He just sits by and lets it happen. Raise the bar and those guys would have to work harder to be good guys, instead of just being inert and passing for it.

  49. Factors such as, the mothers being unemployed for a longer period of time

    So much for the old “if women would just stay home raising their children everything would be fine” argument. Of course, being unwillingly unemployed is very different from intentionally taking extended maternity leave or otherwise deciding not to work outside the home, but this finding does seem to suggest that it might actually be better for children for their mothers to work. At any rate, mothers staying home while their children are growing up is not a panacea.

    Interesting article. I do have two questions about it. They state that only 96 convicted rapists were identified in the 1966 birth cohort. That seems way too low. What percentage of rape cases are solved in Denmark? I’m also a little concerned about possible bias in the statistics. Could some of the findings (ie psychiatric disorder, low educational status) be associated with conviction, rather than rape?

  50. I think that the victim-blamers ignore the rapist/murderer for one or more reasons. One is to assure themselves that this wouldn’t happen to them, because they wouldn’t do anything so stupid. I think a lot of women who bash the victims are coming from that angle.

    Then there’s the discomfort with having to examine why rapes occur. This leads into the easy dismissals of “they are predators” or “animals”. If rapists are just animals, then we don’t have to really consider why men rape. It’s outside the bounds of normal human behavior. Except, of course, it’s not. Rape and all other atrocities are committed by human beings. We don’t like to think about that, because then we might have to admit that we, ourselves, might be capable of committing atrocities under the right circumstances. This is a deeply disconcerting thought for us. Far better to either ignore or other the perpetrator.

    Even more to the point, most violent crimes are committed by men. By huge proportions. Once we focus on the behavior of the rapist/murderer, we have to confront this. I know the reasons why a lot of men don’t want to confront this. I struggle a bit more with why women have trouble confronting this as well. I know it’s easier to focus on the behavior of women, because women are cast in the role of having to control not only our behavior, but the behavior of men as well. Maybe a lot of us just don’t know any other way to function, so our first reaction is to fall back into that pattern. Kind of like how adults often repeat the dysfunctional relationships of their childhood.

    Unfortunately, being guilty of this myself, those of us who fight the victim-blaming get so caught up in doing that, that we lose sight of the rapist/murder ourselves. And maybe it’s not all just due to our desire to put an end to victim-blaming. Maybe we are also unconsciously playing into the dysfunction mentioned in the previous paragraph.

  51. i have an unrelated question, sparked by an expression used earlier in the thread: if one can be unconsciously sexist, how would you know, and how could you fix it?

    you’ve just given me another thing to be afraid of – that i am unconsciously prejudiced, and that i’d never know what a terrible person i am, just continuing on my path of destruction, because how would i know differently?

    it seems that this is saying that you can’t even trust yourself to know how you feel – that no matter what you think, you could have secret hidden hate you’re not aware of that’s driving you. and i’m sure this is often true, but this seems to say that even if you don’t think you do, you do. and there’s no way around it, because you’d never know if you were successful or not.

    it’s like, now i can’t even use the argument that i’m a good person to try to convince myself that i’m not a burden, because i may very well not be and i’ll never know.

    so please tell me how i’m wrong. no snark. i’m scared.

  52. Zuzu #31: What she said.

    I truly believe that people who realize this need to educate people who don’t realize it. more of the former are women and more of the latter are men. We can convince a woman that she did not deserve to be attacked because she wore a short skirt, but until we convince men of the same thing, women are going to continue to get attacked and blamed for wearing short skirts. You can call it shifting the burden to the rapees, and maybe it is. But somebody has to educate men on male priviledge and non-raping, and I don’t see that progressing very far without women (the majority of people who see male priviledge for what it is) taking a lead.

  53. and question 2: so the fact that men benefit from the patriarchy makes them sexist scum? my partner isn’t afraid of being raped. does that make him sexist scum? this doesn’t seem logical to me.

    or did i misunderstand the phrasing?

  54. so the fact that men benefit from the patriarchy makes them sexist scum? my partner isn’t afraid of being raped. does that make him sexist scum? this doesn’t seem logical to me.

    Looks like this is a response to me. If so…

    I didn’t say that anyone who benefits from the patriarchy is sexist scum. I said that any man who benefits from the fact that a woman is afraid of him is sexist scum.

    And I didn’t even really mean that, quite. WeeklyRob said that when women stop being afraid, it’s “good for men,” and that nobody loses anything when women stop being afraid except for “the rapist scum and the sexist scum.” My reply was intended to suggest that lots of men benefit from women’s fear, in all sorts of ways — if you’re going to say that only rapists and sexist scum benefit from women’s fear, then you have to define “sexist scum” pretty broadly.

  55. You don’t need to be actively sexist, or scum (which is really just a way of distancing yourself from those people, over there, who are sexist or rape women) in order to get a benefit from the patriarchy. Thing is, a lot of what is called out as sexist behavior is a refusal to acknowledge male privilege or to give it up.

    Even good, well-intentioned people are blind to their various privileges. What those people can do if someone tells them that they are blind to their privilege(s) is to listen. And to think about what’s being said. And to give due consideration to it.

    I see the men in this discussion struggling with that to various degrees. And for the most part, they’re trying. There’s still some resistance, but by and large I see a willingness to at least consider the idea that they’re privileged. And that’s a good thing.

  56. Well, want to talk about how to reform things? I’ll open up the thread to the legal problem.

    First, the problem: We want to convict rapists. We want to NOT convict NONrapists. So far nobody has figured out a great way to accomplish this.

    For most of our other criminal laws (almost all of them) there’s a reall ‘bias towards innocence’ You have probaly all heard the quote “better than 10/100/1000 guilty men go free than one innocent man be imprisoned.” The number changes often as does the purported speaker–but really, this concept of preferring “innocence error” over “guilt error” is pretty major.

    You’d have to do some sneaky drafting to get around that presumption IMO, it’s pretty well enshrined in due process.

    Anyway, on to the stuff. I assume everyone knows the legal definition of rape…? It varies by state; here’s a cite from Massachusetts:

    “Whoever has sexual intercourse or unnatural sexual intercourse with a person, and compels such person to submit by force and against his will, or compels such person to submit by threat of bodily injury…”

    Rape is a yes/no thing. It’s rape or it’s not rape.

    The legal goal, then, is to get as many guilty folks as possible. But also NOT to get nonguilty folks. Preferably none at all, but certainly as few as possible.

    There are three basic ways to increase the # of rape convictions.

    One way is to reduce the presumption of innocence. This is unlikely to pass constitutional muster. For the moment, let’s not talk about this part.

    One way is to increase the number of things which are classified as “rape”. You could, for example, say “any sex without prior written agreement is considered rape.”

    It should be obvious that this change would make it vastly easier to convict people. It should ALSO be obvious that this (deliberately weird) hypothetical has some problems of its own: It exposes people to extraordinarily harsh penalties for small failures (you can have consensual sex and still get convicted if you forget to get a signature.) Obviously, this harsh a rewrite has gone too far in the other direction.

    I encourage people to try ‘writing their own’ rape laws. it’s fun. it’s hard. It’s a good learning experience.

    One way is to use “special rules” for rape. The rape shield law is a good example. These laws benefit the accuser to the detriment of the accused. Try writing these; it’s fun as well.

    One way is to increase police/ prosecution resources. This is generally a pretty good way to do things, so long as you also increase public defender resources to prevent innocents being convicted.

    Anyway, GTG work some more. I’m happy to discuss rape legalese with those who are interested. it’s a fascinating topic.

  57. neat. thank you, brooklynite and zuzu. i thought i was missing something.

    so what do you do if you’re afraid that there might be secret sexism (or whatever) lurking inside you? and how do you know when you’ve successfully gotten rid of it? i mean, i don’t see anything that’s indicating it in myself, but i can’t judge by that, can i? i know i’ve been told that since i’m white (yes, i’m white middle class, btw.) that therefore i am racist. by existing as a white person, i oppress people of color. is this true? i don’t think it is, but i can’t be trusted to know whether or not i’m an oppressor, or whether or not i’m a racist, because it could be hiding in there where i can’t see it. so what do i do?

  58. so what do you do if you’re afraid that there might be secret sexism (or whatever) lurking inside you?

    Keep an eye out, and keep working on it.

    and how do you know when you’ve successfully gotten rid of it?

    You don’t. Not for sure. By definition.

    But so what? Being racist or sexist isn’t a binary condition — it’s not like you’re either not racist, and thus good, or racist, and thus horrible.

    i know i’ve been told that since i’m white (yes, i’m white middle class, btw.) that therefore i am racist.

    I don’t think that’s a particularly illuminating way of looking at it. Saying that “everyone is racist” doesn’t really tell us very much — I think it probably makes more sense to say that the vast majority of people are racist and sexist in one way or another, to one degree or another, and that a lot of those people aren’t aware of their prejudices.

    But if you say “the vast majority of people are racist,” most people listening are likely to hear that as “the vast majority of other people…”, so I can see where saying “everyone” is a useful rhetorical device.

    by existing as a white person, i oppress people of color. is this true?

    Arguably. And it’s arguably true whether you’re racist or not.

    All white people benefit from racism. I’d say all white people are, to one degree or another, complicit in racism. Ditto men and sexism.

    i can’t be trusted to know whether or not i’m an oppressor, or whether or not i’m a racist, because it could be hiding in there where i can’t see it. so what do i do?

    Try not to be a racist. Try to be open to the possibility that you may have some racist attitudes, in spite of your best intentions. Try to be alert to potential racism within yourself, and to opportunities to address it.

    More importantly, work at being anti-racist and anti-sexist. If you’re basically a decent person, you’ll do more good by seeking out ways to combat racism than you will by lying on your bed trying to figure out whether you’re a racist. And you’ll probably learn more about yourself, too.

  59. zuzu:

    They can go out at night alone and nobody hassles them about it. They don’t have to devote large plots of mental real estate to thinking about what to do if they’re attacked, is that guy following me, what if he put something in my drink, what will happen if I sit in the bar by myself like the guys do, oh god he’s holding the door for me what does he want, etc.

    While I’m not going to argue about the amount of violent stranger rape, which disproportionally affects women, there’s a point to be made about the actual versus the perceived danger of public spaces for men and women. In FY 1992-1993, the NCVS reports that there were 6.6m violent crimes against men and 4.7m violent crimes against women. 30% of those violent crimes against women were committed by an intimate partner; 4% of those violent crimes against men were committed by an intimate partner. Though I’m making the somewhat unwarranted assumption that all intimate partner violence is committed in public and all non-intimate-partner violence is committed in public, this comes out that men are 1.75x more likely to be assaulted in a public space than a woman. Though, watching the trend-line, the difference has narrowed, violent crimes are still disproportionately experienced by men.

    This isn’t a “but men are victims, too!” argument, and I don’t intend to make light of the low reporting and prosecution rates of domestic violence and sexual assault, as well as their specific and devastating consequences. What I mean to say is this:

    Women are in less danger from strangers than their partners; less danger from people hiding in alleys than their male friends. It is not brown people hiding in alleys that are dangerous, and not dangerous loners. It is “normal” men who, otherwise able to function in society, that are most frequentlya danger to women.

    This means two things:

    First: most men deal with rape by coming to the conclusion that men who rape are so deviant that no analogy can be drawn between their their own behavior and the behavior of rapists. And while I think that our society does a relatively good job in dealing with man-in-the-bushes rape, that constitutes 20% or less of rapists. It’s the other 80% — the friends, husbands, boyfriends, acquaintences, whatever, that rape — whose existence, both we as a society and we as men, can’t come to grips with. So we wallpaper it over by arguing that rapists are uncontrollable; their behavior is more similar to a natural disaster than a culturally-responsive reaction. “Blaming” a rapist is as nonsensical as “blaming” a hurricane. Who’s left to blame? The victim.

    Plus, tthe social conditioning that women go through with regard to the safety of public spaces has exactly the same effect that an actual disproportionate danger might have, but that this belief in the danger of lurking strangers is socially constructed, apparently, explicitly for the purposes of threatening women with the most uncontrollable (insofar as rape is at all “controllable”) form of rape.

    — ACS

  60. well shit. i guess i am oppressing black people by existing. who knew? so do i off myself now, or what?

    on a more serious note, i appreciate the suggestions. hopefully that and the drugs will keep my sanity intact. which appears to be a losing proposition, but we’ll see. i haven’t killed myself yet out of guilt, but that’s largely thanks to psychopharmacology and cowardice.

    i suppose, since i’m a racist oppressor no matter what i do, i better get used to it, assuming i’m going to live?

    (two notes: 1. you may think i’m exaggerating for effect, but unfortunately i’m not. it actually does look like that inside my head. 2. yes, someone on the internet, in the middle of a debate, told me that my existence oppresses black people, no matter what i do, because i’m white. and that i could never understand what it’s like to be discriminated against, and even trying to imagine it by extrapolating from my experience was offensive and proved i was a bigot.)

  61. You have completed the Black-White IAT.
    The line immediately below summarizes the results of your task performance.
    Your data suggest a moderate automatic preference for Black compared to White.

    maybe i’m not a bigot! yay! one less reason to off myself.

  62. Pingback: Acephalous
  63. Contrary to what the above suggests, I actually know English quite good, and speaks it perfect when the need to do so arises. Please, don’t let Typepad’s wonky track-backer detract from the seriousness of the conversation, to which I wanted to add, not subtract.

    Ugh.

  64. “Women are in less danger from strangers than their partners; less danger from people hiding in alleys than their male friends. It is not brown people hiding in alleys that are dangerous, and not dangerous loners. It is “normal” men who, otherwise able to function in society, that are most frequentlya danger to women.”

    And this is, to me, one more way men benefit. If we are all distracted by the fear of the “brown men in alleys” then perhaps we’re not paying to attention to those far more likely to rape them – the husbands/boyfriends/friends etc. If we’re constantly plotting ways that women can avoid the “stranger” – i.e. not going out alone, not walking alone etc etc – then perhaps we’re not plotting ways to keep women safe from those far more likely to rape them. And, if a women is in a sexual relationship with a man, then it can’t be rape because she’d previously consented and that gives him eternal permission. I just saw something to this effect on the FSTDT site. Here: Post #1 (See: #2, & #3, for some other lovely posts. This is what we’re up against.)

  65. Phil, chill out, hon. Watch Spike Lee’s School Daze and look at the stats on how women discriminate against each other. You are in great company if you oppress people, because the rest of us are even oppressing people in groups we are part of for a lot of complicated reasons. We’re all just workin’ on it, babe. No pharmacology needed.

  66. I’d like to second the request to be more explicit about the difference between a benefit and an exemption from oppression. It’s true that the distinction can be slight in many cases, but I think it’s worth making, for two reasons:

    1) When we say that “not having to worry about rape” is a benefit, we establish “having to worry about rape” as the normal baseline state.

    2) Conflating an oppression of one class with across-the-board benefit to those not in that class depicts social justice as a zero-sum game in which oppression cannot be decreased (and benefit cannot be increased) but only redistributed.

    This second reason is personally important to me because I believe that bigotry in general, patriarchy in particular, and rape specifically are poisons in society. I believe that the harm a rapist does to the woman (most often) he (almost always) rapes is far greater than whatever personal benefit he attains, and even that benefit is a poisoned one; I believe that the harm that rape does to society — the lost “plots of mental real estate” (as zuzu puts it), the lost trust between men and women, even, crassly, the monetary costs of fear for one’s security and recovery from violence — outstrip whatever benefits men accrue, actively or passively, from its prevalence. I believe that eliminating rape would make life better to some degree for the vast majority of people: all women, all transfolk, most men.

    I could be wrong, but I’d like at least to acknowledge the possibility.

  67. Lya Kahlo: I think that the benefit you describe from the “brown men” theory may be something that boyfriend and husband *rapists* get. If they want to rape their girlfriends and wives, then they benefit from everyone thinking that only men in alleys do it.

    Unless I’m reading this wrong, there seems to be a bit of a blur between men who are rapists and men in general.

  68. Cranefly: What you said is what I meant when I said something like: everyone except rapists and sexists would benefit from the end to the rape culture.

    It doesn’t mean that every detail of everyone’s life would be easier (maybe it would be harder for some men to get jobs because they compete against qualified women). But overall, things could be better.

  69. I just saw something to this effect on the FSTDT site

    That site makes me weep for humanity every time I log on. Regarding rape, my personal un-favorite is this one:

    “If u have sex before marriage then in Gods eyes u are married to that person if a man rapes a woman in Gods eyes they are married it sucks for the girl but what can we do lol”

  70. “I think that the benefit you describe from the “brown men” theory may be something that boyfriend and husband *rapists* get. If they want to rape their girlfriends and wives, then they benefit from everyone thinking that only men in alleys do it.

    Unless I’m reading this wrong, there seems to be a bit of a blur between men who are rapists and men in general. ”

    There was, and that was my fault. I left out part of the thought. (too much editing before posting). I did not intend to blur that line.

    I left out that men in general benefit by way of what someone else already mentioned – by not having to face that fact that it isn’t just strangers in an alley but their friends, their brothers, and possibly, themselves. If we convince ourselves that it’s the “strangers” that rape, then we don’t have to face that the truth and the possible reasons and solutions. So the cycle continues.

  71. men in general benefit by way of what someone else already mentioned – by not having to face that fact that it isn’t just strangers in an alley but their friends, their brothers, and possibly, themselves. If we convince ourselves that it’s the “strangers” that rape, then we don’t have to face that the truth and the possible reasons and solutions. So the cycle continues.

    You’re right. Women who haven’t been raped benefit from the same thing, though. Women who haven’t been raped need to face the same facts that men do, and if not having to face facts is a benefit, then everyone shares that benefit.

    However bad it is for a rape victim to be misunderstood by men, it must feel even worse to be misunderstood by women. This is a guess, not a statement of fact.

  72. weeklyrob:

    You’re right. Women who haven’t been raped benefit from the same thing, though. Women who haven’t been raped need to face the same facts that men do, and if not having to face facts is a benefit, then everyone shares that benefit.

    Watch out, you’re heading into the “women need to do X about rape” territory that zuzu was wanting to get out of. Be careful with equating the two benefits, too — are you sure that the myth of the brown stranger rapist is functional for men and women (who have or haven’t been raped) in exactly the same way?

  73. Cranefly:

    I’m not talking about what rape victims need to do. I’m not talking about what women need to do to avoid being raped. I’m talking about what SOCIETY needs to do to kill the culture.

    One thing is recognize who the rapists are. Men and women need to recognize that it may be their friends and brothers and fathers, not just some scary “other” in an alley.

    Lya Kahlo said that men benefit from people thinking that it’s a scary “other” because they don’t have to face that it could be their friends. I’m just saying that men and women are alike in that one way.

  74. The dynamic is different, though.

    Women who haven’t been raped don’t want to think that the men they trust and love could do that to them. Men who don’t rape don’t want to think that their friends are capable of doing such things, so that they don’t have to be vigilant or do anything about it if the signs are there.

  75. “Women who haven’t been raped benefit from the same thing, though. Women who haven’t been raped need to face the same facts that men do, and if not having to face facts is a benefit, then everyone shares that benefit.”

    I agree in that women need to face it as well, but I don’t think it’s to their benefit to ignore it. Rather, it’s to their detriment should they end up being put in that situation. It is not up to women to change the behavior of men. Or rather, it shouldn’t be.

  76. Nobody blames victims. The fact remains, though, that women are generally physically weaker than men, and that means that women will continue to face certain dangers. The acknowledgement that women should take reasonable precautions against certain dangers is not inconsistent with the belief that it would be better off if the dangers did not exist.

    There are people walking around who are mentally sick, pathologically cruel and will do harm to anyone they are capable of harming. They are dangerous to men, and they are potentially more dangerous to women.

    The observation that the set of circumstances that placed the girl in a cab and later in a hotel room with a convicted crack dealer she’d never met before necessarily implies some imprudent decisions on her part does not necessarily suggest that she deserved to die, nor does it imply that her imprudence in any way mitigates the barbaric inhumanity of the crime that this guy did.

    I think that this guy is the best argument around for lifting New York’s moratorium on the death penalty, but I still think it’s a bad idea, for a man or a woman, to be alone and too drunk to take care of oneself in the streets. It’s also a bad idea take cab rides to New Jersey with crackheads.

  77. Lya Kahlo, #69, I think you make a very good point. In fact, I’m convinced some rapists benefit directly from women’s fears of stranger rape.

    Here’s a scenario I’ve seen too many times to count: A woman decides to leave a party. It’s late; it’s dark. Some man who only met her that night offers to walk her home. She refuses. He insists. Everybody around her insists, and pressures her not to walk home alone, because “something could happen out there.”

    More likely to happen: Her new friend walks her home, forces her into her apartment, and rapes her. She’s a hell of a lot safer walking home alone. Not that I’m blaming her behaviour either way. No matter what she does, it is always the rapists fault. But I’m just pointing out that he benefits from the culture of fear.

    On my blog, over the next little while, I will be telling my three stories of rape, attempted rape, or sexual assault. And I dare you to blame me.

  78. philosophizer, I’m just a random person on the internet, but I’d recommend that you bring this up in the context of whatever therapy you’re getting (the mention of psychopharmacology should correlate to counseling; if not, please get some). Constant thoughts of your own terrible nature are not healthy. Take care of yourself, and good luck.

    Daniel:

    It’s also a bad idea take cab rides to New Jersey with crackheads.

    Did she know he was a crackhead when she got into the cab? I doubt it. Given the choice between a cab – where the driver’s presence should theoretically make one safer – and the street with a menacing follower, most people would choose the cab. It could be that, like in twf’s comment #87, Coleman coerced Jennifer into coming back with him. It is patently clear, however, that he took advantage of her relative powerlessness, fear, and impaired state to bring her to the motel and rape and murder her. That has nothing to do with her choices and everything to do with his choices.

  79. It’s also a bad idea take cab rides to New Jersey with crackheads.

    You know, if she hadn’t got in the cab and she’d been raped and murdered by the guy who was following her, people would have said “it’s a bad idea to turn down a cab ride when you’re being stalked on a deserted street.”

    How was she supposed to know that the guy in the cab was a criminal? What was the giveaway?

  80. Sally is correct. It is unreasonable to view Jennifer’s actions with the authority of hindsight. Lord knows that we could probably review ANYONE’S life and actions and think that there was a better path in retrospect.

    If you’re going to make that sort of judgment at all–which is quite common–it’s important to make it from the point of view, and level of knowledge, of the person making the decision. Choices which are “bad” in retrospect may have been perfectly rational at the time.

  81. The acknowledgement that women should take reasonable precautions against certain dangers is not inconsistent with the belief that it would be better off if the dangers did not exist

    I think Sarah in Chicago over at the Pandagon thread on the other feministe thread summed it up perfectly:

    The point is people coming into rape discussions and either demonising women/girls or suggesting ways in which women could behave differently/fight back. In these kinds of discussions it places the fault of the rape at the feet of the victim, and constructs her as deserving it!

    IF we have a discussion on rape prevention and self-defense techniques, THEN is a good point to bring them up. The amazing thing; we KNOW THIS! Women bloody well know this!! But a) that’s not going to work against the vast majority of rapes which are not stranger rapes, and b) THAT’S NOT THE FUCKING POINT HERE!

    The point is that whenever a rape case is brought up, focus is brought to what the woman did or did not do, NOT what the guy did OR how society perpetuates rape.

    It doesn’t matter if what you are saying is right, it’s NOT fucking appropriate!

    Also:

    I still think it’s a bad idea, for a man or a woman, to be alone and too drunk to take care of oneself in the streets. It’s also a bad idea take cab rides to New Jersey with crackheads.

    So, what would you have done in her situation? Been alone in the streets being followed by a crazy guy offering you drugs, or gotten into a cab with someone who could potentially be a crackhead? How do you tell whether someone is a crackhead or not? And what’s wrong with taking a cab ride to New Jersey when that’s where you live? What if she had waited for the cop, and then been raped and/or murdered by him? (It’s not like that’s never happened). Would she have made a poor choice then, too?

    All of her options were bad, and faulting her for making the best choice with only bad options is pure and simple victim-blaming, regardless of whether you are willing to call a spade a spade.

  82. This post has been on my mind for days. I’ve brought it up with every female in my sphere I feel comfortable talking with about these things. And it’s resulted in some sickening discoveries. I’ve talked to about 15 women and all of them have rape/sexual assualt/attempted rape stories. ALL of them. Including me.

    Most of us are from the suburbs of a not-very-big city. None of us are or ever were addicts, drunks, hookers or sluts. None of us have walked home in the dark.

    So, Daniel, what was you point? We have not made these “bad” decisions the you say increased this woman’s exposure to injury and yet we all have these stories. Perhaps you’ve missed the point of Zuzu’s post completely?

  83. Something that’s been on my mind about this topic — the focus on the victim, the disappearance of the rapist’s culpability — is how the circumstances of rape are narrated versus other crimes. When the news describes a bank robbery, do they follow the tellers’ POV from their arrival at work that morning? Maybe once or twice to be artsy, but the focus of the classic journalistic questions of who, what, when, where, why, and how are all on the criminals. That’s where the information is. Rape reporting is completely reversed.

    Take the headlines about this particular incident (shown in this previous post): “Her Tragic Last Steps: Jennifer’s night on the town ends in abduction and gruesome murder,” and “‘There’s a guy following me… he won’t leave me alone’: LAST CALL: Teen beauty’s horror murder.” Even though neither of those headlines even hints at blaming her, they make the story fundamentally about her. The rapist, as far as he even exists, is cast in a minor role and not as the principal actor in the crime. (Actually, from context in posts above, it sounds like the man who wouldn’t “leave her alone” in the second headline isn’t even the perpetrator.)

    It feels counterintuitive to say that telling the story from the victim’s point of view that actually reduces sympathy for her, but I’m wondering whether one step towards shifting the focus of blame back onto rapists is to narrate their crime like any other from the beginning: with the criminal at the center of the story.

  84. I completely agree with Cranefly. Instead of focusing on all the decisions that led up to the victim running into her rapist and murderer (with the inevitable segue into a discussion of how not to run into such a person), we should focus on what the rapist/murderer did that led him to choose to pick a random target and kill her.

    Back when the D.C. sniper was on the loose, were there any articles that focused on the people who were shot that followed that template? For instance: “John Doe was eating dinner with his family one night, when he suddenly remembered he needed gas. Rather than go to the gas station near his house, he wanted to go to the one a few blocks away that had a minimart. Even though it was late, John decided to skip full-service and instead opt for self-serve gas. He was wearing a bright orange shirt, which made him an easy target for a sniper, and his fate was sealed the minute he chose to get out of his car after dark.”

    Then we could have comments about how we should all wear bullet-proof vests and helmets, wear dark clothes, get gas in pairs during the day – but no, we’re not blaming the victim, because obviously the gunman was at fault! – but really, you should try to get full service and maybe make sure you have 911 on speed dial and for the love of god, make sure there are no cars around and check any that are for sniper-holes in the trunk!

    This might seem silly – after all, random snipers are rare, and rape is really common – but isn’t that the point? Do you think we’d put up with snipers if one in four people were randomly shot and/or killed by them?

  85. I cannot believe some of the bullshit being said here! Is this what I have to look forward to if I ever get raped? I mean, I’ve already lived through being blamed for the fact that I was molested. What’s next?

    Let’s see, I went to my mailbox by myself today. Oh, and I wasn’t wearing a potato sack either. Nor a chasitity belt. And most of the people in my complex are at work at this time, so it was pretty empty. Also, Durham is not exactly the safest city in America. OBVIOUSLY, I would have been “asking for it” had a rapist happened by.

    God! You can take a victim’s every single move and interpret it as “stupid.” It won’t keep you, your sister, your mother, your daughter, and friend safe.

  86. I’m going to shoot myself the next time I see a reference to a rape victim’s physical attractiveness in a news story.

    What the fuck does it matter if she was a ‘teen beauty’? It isn’t why she was raped, that’s for sure. Is it supposed to make me feel even worse for her?… but I think that language has the reverse effect. ‘Oh, well, obviously she was raped… I mean, she was pretty!’

  87. Cranefly, thank you for putting into words what I’ve been thinking and unable to express myself.

    We want to focus the discussion on the rapist and why he did what he did, and how we can work to lower the incidence of rape. But when the overwhelming focus of the media and the information given rests with the victim, it’s difficult for commenters like us to draw conclusions from such scanty evidence.

    What do we know about Draymond Coleman? That he had previous arrests; that he was involved with drugs; that he was a small-time pimp and worked as a bouncer at times; that he lived in hotels and flop houses; that he had his name tattooed on his neck. It’s not a lot to work with.

  88. I think part of the problem is that the friends and family-members of an innocent murdered young woman are a whole lot more likely to tell the media a lot about her than the friends and family-members of a sleazy small-time criminal accused of a horrific crime. And the police are probably less likely to reveal details about his movements, because they don’t want to compromise their case. So we don’t know much about him.

  89. I love you guys.
    I was left a comment on my blog that sent me here. This is an excellent post, with an excellent point. How is it our fault? When is this madness going to stop? When are these idiots going to open their eyes and realize… women (for the most part) don’t rape men because they look hot in that business suit or they overdrank the budweiser.
    It is time we join together and advance the ball. Thanks for the post.

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